in the peak hours associated with downsizing the restaurant and removing 138 of the existing seats.
I then compared this reduction in peak hour trips to the vehicle trips anticipated to be
generated by the proposed parks, race, and sports book room. And what background information were
you provided about the project and that you were asked to evaluate? Sure. I was provided
with information and also a building plan. And that plan detailed the size and the seating
capacity of the proposed changes to the bar and restaurant. And again, based on that plan,
what it showed is the existing facility. Again, that's the facility at 1526 Packer.
What it showed is the existing facility, again that's the facility at 1526 Packer Avenue, will use a 2,600 square foot portion of the existing restaurant for the new operation, removing, as I stated previously, and reducing its dining capacity by 138 seats.
The plan also indicated that the sportsbook room will be housed within that 2,600 square foot space and is planned to provide 59 seats.
So the net loss of overall seats within Chicken and Pete's restaurant is 79.
In addition to that plan for 1526 Packer Avenue, we also requested and was provided size and seating capacity of the existing turf club.
And in order to complete your evaluation as a traffic engineer, what must you do with the data that you accumulated?
Well, the gross floor area of those facilities and also the number of seats are used as
independent variables in the formulas used to develop our trip generation estimates.
The first step, as I said in my summary, the reduction in trips associated with downsizing
the restaurant were estimated or calculated based on the rates provided in the Institute
of Transportation Engineers Trip Generation Manual. And again, using the number of seats and
the size of the space removed, the proposed downsizing of the restaurant is expected to
reduce trips in and out of the site by 25 during the weekday commuter peak hour, 45 during the
weekday evening peak hour, and 29 trips during the Saturday evening peak hour. So again, as I
summarized, the next step is to compare those reductions to the trips anticipated to be
generated by the sportsbook room. And we calculated those trips based on two methodologies.
So the first methodology is we actually developed site-specific rates for the existing turf club,
and again, it's 700 Packer Avenue, based on counts that were collected at the driveways
prior to COVID. And again, these counts were conducted prior to 2019 with that change in use.
Based on the actual trips in and out of those turf club driveways, the proposed sportsbook room
is projected to generate a total of seven trips enter and exiting the site during the Friday
commuter peak, six during the Friday evening peak hour, and three trips during the peak hour on a
Saturday. And again, these are lower than the amount of trips removed from the downsizing of
the restaurant. We also included in our study, just for comparison purposes, an estimate of
anticipated peak hour trips for the sports book room using PennDOT approved rates for casino uses
within the stadium district. And one thing I do want to point out that it is not anticipated this
facility to generate traffic at the same rate as a casino. The trip rates for a casino are based on
gaming positions, but they also include so many other amenities, you know, multiple restaurants,
room for conferences, special entertainment, you know, use it also just special entertainment and
events. But again, this exercise was completed just to provide those conclusions and provide
the most conservative assumption. Based on the casino trip generation rates,
the proposed sportsbook room is projected to generate 24 trips during the Friday commuter peak,
27 during the Friday evening peak, and 34 trips during the Saturday peak hour. Again,
these highly conservative numbers show that the new facility or this that will generate less trips
during the Friday commuter peak, during the Friday evening peak, and just a moderate increase
five trips during the Saturday peak hour. And what is a trip generation statement?
A trip generation statement is a document. It's approved by both the City of Philadelphia and
PennDOT, and it basically summarizes the anticipated total number of trips
going to and from a land use in a specific time frame.
and what purpose does it serve well again it's commonly you know for the purposes of approvals
land development approvals just some other types of projects it's submitted to the city
philadelphia and also penn dot department of trans pennsylvania department transportation
just to receive concurrence on trip generation methodology
and also in cases such as this one where
And also, in cases such as this one, where the trips anticipated to be generated by the new use are equal or less than the previous, it's used to summarize potential impacts to traffic, rather than performing a full, you know, width modeling traffic study.
And did you complete a trip generation statement in this matter?
I did.
I think I just like to turn to it on the screen and just have you identify it as the
as the trip generation statement sorry about that I think that's parking first
here is this what's on the screen now a copy and it was identified and provided to the board as
Exhibit 7, provided to all counsel involved in the case as Exhibit 7.
Is this the trip generation statement?
It is.
Based upon your review and study of the relevant traffic impacts,
will this project have or cause a detrimental impact on the health,
safety, and welfare of the neighborhood in excess of what is expected from this
proposed use?
I would conclude no.
and again based on the assessments that i summarized um it's expected that the downsized
restaurant with the sportsbook room is expected to generate less trips in and out of the site
than the existing full capacity restaurant um and the reason i say that is there's only you know
that most conservative assessment of that saturday peak hour really is based on that um casino rate
And we expect the sportsbook room to generate less trips than a casino.
And in your opinion, will this project cause unexpected congestion in the public streets or on the local transportation systems?
No, I would expect the adjacent roadway network to operate similar to the conditions today.
And will this project have an unexpected burden on local parks, schools, or other public facilities?
And taking into account the 2,600 square feet of race and sports book with only 59 seats and the reduction in overall size at Chickie's and Pete's Bar by 2,600 square feet for the race and sports book and the elimination of 79 seats, do you have an opinion of the overall traffic impact on the neighborhood?
Yeah, I do not expect changes to the overall traffic operation in the neighborhood.
Thank you. I'd like to then next turn to the parking. And in your opinion,
as a professional engineer, is the parking provided adequate for the present operation?
Yes. The number of parking spaces provided exceeds the requirements of the zoning code.
Based on the zoning code, and I guess, yes, you're calling up the summary, but just to give
the summary of the results based on the zoning code the existing restaurant requires 91 spaces
the downsized restaurant requires 81 spaces and the sports book room requires 15 spaces which is
because it's one for every four permanent seats miss perrero excuse the interruption
could you scroll down because all we have is on top portion of that that would be helpful thank
you sorry miss miss ferrero that's okay there might be a i think there's a table
um i can scroll down further is there a summary table on the next
no just an occlusion i apologize yeah um so
during the peak parking demand which is after seven the restaurant with a sportsbook room
based on this analysis does require a net of five additional spaces but again during this peak time
which is after 7 p.m there's very few businesses open and you know there's an excess of spaces
within the shopping center. And will the project if approved meet all the parking requirements?
Yes, the number of provided parking spaces will continue to exceed the requirements of the zoning code, even with the increase of five.
And are your opinions you expressed today based upon a reasonable degree of traffic engineering certainty?
Thank you. I have no further questions for Ms. Ferraro.
I don't know if we want to do cross-examination now or wait until after I finish Mr. Pretz and then start.
I'd like to do, I'd like to do cross, but that's my question.
I'd like to do cross, but that's my question.
Proceed, Mr. Bonney.
Okay, thank you.
Ms. Ferreira, thank you for being here.
What data in your reports are taken actually in real life from a sports book parlor, a sports book operation?
can you repeat the question yes which of the data in your reports in your letter reports
are coming from observations of sports books
well we used yes so the two different methodologies again we provided two ends of
the spectrum um Paul the first one is um a trip generation for the existing turf club which I
agree did not have the sports book um but the second one is a casino use and the reason why
we chose it is because it was vetted through the city of Philadelphia it was vetted through the
PennDOT Department of Transportation it's for the stadium district where this new facility
you know is proposed um and it's ultimate it's very conservative so we just wanted to make sure
that we had those two ends of the spectrum in the report well you're you're saying with all due
respect you are saying there are two ends of the spectrum i'm just asking about what is the where
did the data come from so i i think it we don't know what the ends of the spectrum is until we
um until we observe and not measure the use so the turf in my in my view with all due respect
the the trip generation you got from the turf club in south philadelphia was
june of 2013 is that correct um is that what it states i thought it was 2014 but it might have
just been that's the date of the study okay well let's have been taken the year before but in the
range of that to early 2014. Okay. Well, I see on page two of your
trip generation statement, it says Pannoni conducted traffic counts at the existing
turf club site driveway in June, 2013. Okay. That's correct. Then I can verify that.
Okay. Thank you. So, and you would agree with me that that is about eight years ago, and that is
before sports wagering was legalized in Pennsylvania, which was about 2017 or 2018.
I can agree. I was on site during those counts. And I have to say that was a time when the stadium
district was very vibrant. The teams were doing very well. And, you know, just to give you a
framework of when those counts were taken. Right. But the only thing going on inside that building
was betting on horse races.
I agree.
It did not include the sports wagering,
which is why we provided
the ultimate conservative estimate,
even though it's not a casino,
but we did also provide that data.
Right.
And they start to use that
for our conclusions as well.
Right.
Well, I think the board is of the opinion
that this is not a casino,
but to indulge your report,
when and where were the casino numbers
um draw you know what what is that drawn from what year were those um that's a similar time
frame um there were a number of consultants and um we did put in applications for a number of the
casino license um so one within the stadium district it was based on actual counts at three
different um and i think we put that in the appendix um paul so the methodology was based
on actual counts at three different casinos that were very similar to the one that was proposed in
the stadium district okay so um can you tell me um what years that data is from the years
it was in the previous years of that 2014 um again because that's when the some of those
casinos were just coming online with um with more license being provided um okay but you
you would it's before 2017 which correct okay
okay um thank you uh
uh did you analyze the congestion in the public streets currently
congestion in the public streets currently in the area surrounding 1526 Packer?
No, I did not. So what is common, again, for the city of Philadelphia and PennDOT
is if you have an analysis that shows that your trips will be equal to or less than the existing
trips, it doesn't make sense to go and do an analysis of congestion adjacent to the roadway
because you know it's going to decrease with the decrease in volumes.
Well, you know it's going to decrease if you make a bunch of assumptions.
And I think I've...
Well, those assumptions are based on very sound engineering principles
from a transportation engineer.
And they're also based on methodology that the city uses and PennDOT uses.
Well, I understand.
And we can characterize that differently.
And I appreciate where you're coming from.
Yes, being a professional, being a professional transportation engineer.
Yes, but you're using data that's eight years old to a facility that doesn't have the same use.
You can't get caught up on the years and how old it is.
In the city of Philadelphia, we actually have, you have to remember that was the stadium district during a very vibrant time.
so it's not the number of years like there's not factors that change between now and then so the
factor that did change is the fact that again we included for information the methodology of the
turf club that wasn't the sole you know we didn't only provide that because of the fact that the
data was taken prior to the sports book now we were not it was not possible to update that
information because of COVID. So it didn't make sense to count it this year and do an update
because of the changes due to the closures and COVID. So, you know, what is traditionally done
is you do a very conservative estimate and base your conclusions on that.
But you could have, but the South Philadelphia sports book was not closed during the entirety of
um covet you agree but do you think would would the board have approved our conclusions when
it was during the time of covet i mean we just didn't feel that there was that we just felt that
it would be subject um because of that you know there's times where we don't take traffic counts
because it snowed um we're very careful about the data we use and we just didn't feel that we
could you know that data would be valid because of the closures during COVID right but I would
think that parks has a pretty good handle on how many people normally come into their
South Philadelphia sports book pre-COVID and how many are coming in during COVID and therefore
I mean for instance did you even make a count of how many cars are in the parking lot at 700
Packer since
they've had a sports book.
Jump in here for a minute, but there
are other businesses operating
on that and using that same parking
lot. Yes, but not at 7 at night
or 8 at night. But I agree
some judgment. I agree
with that. There is a lottery office.
There's a
industrial use. There's a lot of other uses.
I don't know about a lot of other uses,
but there are other uses.
There are other uses, but my question is, did you make a count of the number of cars in the parking lot at 700 parker?
I guess I would question what relevance that would have if we weren't going to use the data or do a traffic count there because we didn't feel it was reliable due to the COVID circumstance.
Your answer is no, you didn't do that. Is that correct?
That's correct.