Mr. Heron has been allowed to speak.
Good morning, sir.
Yeah, good morning, sir.
Please identify yourself in the record.
Spell your first and last name, and I'll square you in.
are you breaking up would you try that again
no you're breaking up
if so you could
We're unable to hear you.
Hold on.
Can you hear me now?
Yes, yes.
Can you hear me?
Thank you.
Yes, we can.
Please identify yourself.
First and last name?
Fred Herron, H-A-R-R-A-N, Director of Public Safety,
Ben Salem Township Police Department.
Do you swear and affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth,
nothing but the truth?
I do. Thank you. Mr. Medellin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Heron, Director Heron,
what is your profession or occupation? I'm the director of Ben Salem Township Police Department
in Bucks County, Pennsylvania. And how long have you been the director? I've been the director for
15 years. I've been employed here 33. And in your work as director of public safety, do you work
with the Parks Casino? I do. And would you describe your relationship with the Parks Casino?
Certainly. I was director in 2006 when Parks started in December as just slot machines.
And then I continue on and director in 2010 when they have table games.
I work with them on a daily basis regarding issues within the community, anything that matters concerning Parks Casino,
working with them with a variety of functions, not only in the gaming, but the restaurants and their showroom as well.
and a lot of community events as well.
Parks is involved with a lot of community activities.
I chair many of our nonprofits in town
that I'm involved in a lot of community organizations as well.
And over the past 15 years,
since Parks Casino became fully operational,
what has happened to the level of crime
in Ben Salem Township?
So the level of crime has continually decreased
over the years.
And if you may, I have some crime statistics
that really tells an amazing story.
And I took four samples of statistics,
2017, a couple of years ago versus 2005,
which was the year before parks opened, obviously.
And for instance, our robbery,
we've shown a 44% decrease in robbery,
a 42% decrease in assaults,
a 63% decrease in burglaries
and a 30% decrease in thefts and a 66% decrease in auto thefts.
Parks has been an amazing partner, very cooperative and very aware of the issues
that the community thought was going to arrive because of Parks,
but that never actually had an opposite effect.
Prior to opening the casino in Bensalem,
what concerns were expressed to you by the neighbors up there?
I missed it prior to the opening. Is that what you said?
Prior to the opening. What concerns did the neighbors express to you about the casino?
Sure. So in 2005 and early in 2006 as well, I was asked to attend probably 20 some odd community meetings in different areas of our township by our mayor,
our state center, our state representative, regarding potential impact of parks in the
community. A lot of the neighbors were afraid that once parks came, casino, moving into the
racetrack, you know, they feared that people would go to parks, lose their shirts, so to speak,
lose their shirt so to speak and have no way to get home so to steal a car from the neighborhood
and have no way to get home. So to steal a car from the neighbor.
to to go back to wherever they came from people would need money and go rob stores drugs would
be thrown throughout the area prostitution would be up and down street road you know all the things
that they had seen from television and other sources and I did a little research you know
with casinos in Atlantic City, casinos in Las Vegas, spoke to people, talked to our elected
officials about measures, what measures we were going to put into place. And that never happened.
None of these issues that the neighbors thought ever transpired. As a matter of fact, it went
just the opposite. And parks has just stepped up to the plate in so many facets to help the community
with a variety of of different charitable events and other things of that nature so
that's what i did in 2005 and 2006 and and now i don't really community members don't parks is a
part of the community it's a part of ben salem it's just it's a staple in ben salem and no one
complains about parks right now and based upon your experience with the parks casino and their
operations do you believe that the relocation of the otv race and sports book from its present
location to inside chickies and pete's at 1526 packer avenue will lead to an increase in crime
in that area i i can't see anything relocation or addition regarding parks uh would lead to an
increase in crime uh as again parks their uh security folks or surveillance folks director
security um all their executives uh work very well with this and if if there is a problem which
there hasn't been they get on top of it and matter of fact parks has just been very cooperative when
we have things that have nothing to do with them they've been very cooperative so um i don't see
that having impact on the city parks at all and based upon your experience again with the parks
casino do you believe that this proposed relocation will have a detrimental impact on
the health safety and welfare of the neighborhood yeah and do you have any uh michael if you can
talk a little bit again your voice i'm sorry mr chair i was looking at my notes and looking away
i'm sorry again uh will this um relocation if approved uh into inside chickies and petes have
a based upon your knowledge and experience uh as a director of public safety will this have a
detrimental impact on the health, safety, and welfare of the neighborhood, where would we
relocate it to? No, it will not have a negative effect. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I have no further
questions for the witness. Mr. Bondi? Yes, thank you. Mr. Herron, thank you.
The statistics that you referred to was township-wide, is that correct?
Correct. Do you attribute the decrease in those types of crimes township wide to the existence of Parks Casino?
No, I don't attribute them to the existence of Parks Casino, but what people anticipated was a huge increase. And if anything, we didn't have a two or three percent decrease. We had double digits times times three at the lowest and times six at the highest decrease.
But you don't attribute that to the Parks Casino. I mean, you guys are doing a good job of fighting crime, I assume.
Well, the thing that I would attribute to parks casino would be closures, you know, the again, their security staff is always very accessible to us when there might be an issue where somebody could be inside of parks.
But these are crimes that would have occurred outside. But no, parks has not led to any sort of increase what people thought.
So I can't say that the decrease is because of parks. I can't say that.
Okay. Approximately how many arrests are made at Parks Casino on a given month?
No, I apologize. I am not in my office right now. I don't have that statistic.
I can tell you, though, I couldn't even tell you if an arrest a month, I don't even think it might not be that high as one arrest a month, but I don't have that number with me.
OK, so you're not aware of the number of arrests on average per month at Parks Casino as the director of public safety.
And I think you said to the director of the police department, you don't have even that number at your at your disposal today, today.
at your at your disposal today today i don't have it at this moment i could get it for you in 10
I don't have it at this moment.
minutes i can use my other phone to make a call no no but you can or you can't the point is that
that's not you didn't come here to the zoning board to actually talk about the number of
arrests at the parks casino i want to um would you agree with me that um the arrests inside of
parks casino and on the premises are handled by the state police not by the local police
that's the inside of parks on the it's we as we call on the carpet off the carpet on the carpet
is handled by the state police so i wouldn't have those numbers in my computer system to begin with
i would only have numbers outside of that do you have could you um see the screen on the zoom
uh i all i see is the uh the squares of people i don't see any any other screen yeah now i see
something now we see so i pulled this i pulled this from the state website it's uh this is
arrests by the pennsylvania state police at parks casino um and i did some mathematics at the bottom
where I averaged 1.8 arrests per month, going back to 2007. Do you have any reason to think
that this is incorrect? No, I have no reason to believe. 1.8 a month? No, I don't believe that
would be incorrect. Thank you. I want to, before I leave this witness, you know, he's testifying,
And Mr. Mattione has asked him that because of certain externalities that exist or don't exist with the casino in Ben Salem, that that has anything to do with the types of externalities that this sports book would have in the city of Philadelphia in Packer Park.
And I thought we just spent many, many hours with the board concluding that those two animals aren't the same, that this is not the same as the casino.
So I kind of want to strike the entire evidence.
I mean, if this is not a casino, why does Mr.
Matione keep talking about a casino?
I'd let Mr.
Matione answer that.
But you raised an issue, Paul, when you said it was one is a one point eight arrest per month on average.
From the state police.
state police that's everything that goes anything that was uh occurred inside inside right not in
the parking how many thousands of people do we have do you have those numbers that go through
that casino on a monthly basis i don't know how many crimes are being committed that don't result
in arrests i mean let's stick with no no how many people are going in there that's a good question
i mean 1.8 could be a lot based on the on the number of people who patronize it it could be
insignificant in a sense based on the number of people go into you raise it i did i think my main
i think my main point was that this public safety officer who came here to tell how fantastic parks
is didn't even have the the relevant information well he said he can get it in 10 minutes he
doesn't have what goes on inside. I think I heard that quite clear. And he certainly has the
relevant information, and his testimony is relevant, Mr. Chairman, because when before this
very large 450-acre site opened as a casino, all the people in Ben Salem were up in arms saying
it's going to be terrible, crime's going to go crazy, etc. We're talking about a non-primary
location opening in South Philadelphia in a very small area. And when we met, hold on, Michael,
hold on. Something's going on. Okay, we saw. That was Mr. Harran. Yeah. Mr. Maniani, would you agree
to ask Mr. Harran to pull the number of crimes committed annually over the past 10 years at the
address of Parks Casino and to submit that for the record? I mean, let's see what it is. That's
the question not whether township-wide crime has dropped I mean that's I'm making a mockery of this
gentlemen gentlemen gentlemen gentlemen I think to compare Fox the Parks Casino
which probably has a capacity of thousands on a daily basis to compare that to a 2600 foot
proposed sports betting portion of of chicken pizza i don't see i don't see i agree i agree
all right so let's move on okay fine thank you mr chair my only point was
Okay, fine. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My only point was that they were concerned about crime
that they were concerned about crime before
before and they haven't materialized. That's why I understand that. I understand both you
and I understand Mr. Bonnie. But I think it's apples to apples. That's fine, Mr. Chairman.
And I guess we are done with Director Herring. You can go on to your next witness, Mike.
Do we need to take a break, Mr. Chairman? Taking a break. Yeah, we're going to take a break.
it's we'll be back at 12 15 10 minute break can i ask how um much time we have this afternoon
no later than 1 15. all right thank you thank you mr chairman uh this is leonard reuter uh again um
notwithstanding the position that the city planning uh will be taking in the case um i am not
i myself am not participating in the rest of this um you know again but i want to make it clear
we're not waiving the right to a appeal the decision that was made on the appeal against
lni nor are we waiving any right to appeal any decision uh that may come out of the special
exception case because again city planning and this was just decided in the uh 13 14 spring garden
case city planning is present city planning does will establish the position of the uh of this uh
of this that the city will take with respect to the special exception but i i don't need to be
here and i have a conflict coming up so uh may i be excused yes you may thank you thank you for
your testimony thank you thank you wanted to call my next witness of debbie ferraro
I'm sorry, Chair, if I could just do a court reporter check just to make sure.
I see.
Are you ready?
Yes, I'm ready.
Thank you, Charisse.
You're welcome, Sonia.
Ms. Ferreira, please raise your hand.
Ms. Ferreira, when you get on, please identify yourself.
First and last name.
Spell your last name.
And I'll swear you in.
she's been allowed to speak sir good afternoon
thank you good afternoon chairman and members of the board my name is debbie ferraro um as my
resident again it's um debbie d-e-b-b-i-e ferraro f-e-r-r-a-r-o we're going to tell the
truth the whole truth nothing but the truth yes i do thank you mr marioni thank you mr chairman
And Debbie, what is your profession or occupation?
I am a registered professional transportation and traffic engineer for over 28 years.
And could you just briefly state your, let me, rather than have you do that, I put up
a copy of your resume or CV, and is that reasonably accurate in terms of your qualifications?
Yes, it is.
And what degree do you have?
I have a bachelor's science in civil engineering.
And are you, I think we can stipulate to that unless there's an objection from Mr. Bonney.
No objection.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I just wanted to say she's a professional engineer as well.
Thank you.
Thank you.
No objection.
Were you requesting that you study the possible traffic impacts of the project proposed by
the applicant for a special exception at 1526 Packer Avenue? Yes, I will. And in simple terms
as possible, can you briefly describe what you did to investigate the project and its potential
impacts on traffic in the area around 1526 Packer Avenue? Sure. In the most simple terms,
I first calculated the anticipated reduction in vehicle trips traveling to and from the site