COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA2 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE3 - - -4 Room 400, City Hall5 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Thursday, June 18, 20096 9:50 a.m. 7 - - - 8 PRESENT: COUNCILWOMAN MARIAN B. TASCO, CHAIR9 COUNCILWOMAN JANNIE BLACKWELL COUNCILMAN DARRELL L. CLARKE10 COUNCILMAN FRANK DiCICCO COUNCILMAN W. WILSON GOODE, JR.11 COUNCILMAN BILL GREEN COUNCILMAN WILLIAM GREENLEE12 COUNCILMAN CURTIS JONES, JR. COUNCILMAN JACK KELLY13 COUNCILMAN JAMES F. KENNEY COUNCILMAN BRIAN J. O'NEILL14 COUNCILWOMAN MARIA QUINONES-SANCHEZ COUNCILWOMAN DONNA REED MILLER15 COUNCILWOMAN BLONDELL REYNOLDS BROWN COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO16 17 RESOLUTION 090333 - Resolution confirming the appointment of Edward Kung as a member of the18 Board of Ethics... 19 RESOLUTION 090501 - Resolution confirming the appointment of Damone B. Jones, Sr., as a20 member of the Board of Ethics... 21 - - - 22 V A R A L L O Incorporated Litigation Support Services23 Eleven Penn Center 1835 Market Street, Suite 60024 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 215.561.2220 215.567.267025 2 1
Good2 morning. I'd like to convene the3 Committee of the Whole this morning and4 note that we do have a quorum.5 I'll ask the Clerk to please6 read the resolution.7
Resolution 090501,8 resolution confirming the appointment of9 Damone B. Jones, Sr., as a member of the10 Board of Ethics, to serve in the term11 ending November 16, 2012.12
Thank you.13 Is Reverend Jones present?14 Would you come forward, please, to the15 table.16 (Witness approached witness17 table.)18
Good19 morning. Would you state your name for20 the record and proceed with your21 testimony.22
Good morning.23 My name is Pastor Damone Jones, Senior24 Pastor of the Bible Way Baptist Church in25 3 6/18/09 - WHOLE - BILL 0905011 Philadelphia.2
Councilwoman7 Tasco and to all of the distinguished8 members of the Council, good morning.9 Before I begin my testimony, I10 would like to take this opportunity to11 extend my deepest and enduring sympathy12 to Council President Verna regarding the13 passing of her husband. My prayers and14 thoughts are with her and her family15 members.16 As I've stated, I am Damone B.17 Jones, Sr. I am blessed to have been18 married to my wife Melissa for 18 years,19 and we have four wonderful children. For20 the last 15 years, I have, as you have,21 served in the public light as the Senior22 Pastor of the Bible Way Baptist Church in23 West Philadelphia.24 I've spent most of my adult25 4 6/18/09 - WHOLE - BILL 0905011 life ministering to and advocating for2 at-risk young people and those whom life3 has been less than kind.4 I have worked and continue to5 work diligently with the Philadelphia6 Police Department, the District7 Attorney's Office, and joyfully I've8 served as Chaplain to Philadelphia Youth9 Study Center.10 As you know, I was recently11 nominated by Mayor Nutter to serve on the12 Board of Ethics of our city, and I am13 both honored and humbled at the same time14 to have this opportunity to speak at this15 moment. I was born in and reared in this16 city, and I say unequivocally that I love17 this city dearly. And because of my18 great love and concern for the well-being19 of this city, I welcome and embrace the20 opportunity to serve in such a capacity.21 Having been appointed to this22 Board in 2001 by then Mayor John F.23 Street, I understand the awesome and24 significant responsibility connected to25 5 6/18/09 - WHOLE - BILL 0905011 my nomination, and I understand the times2 and the climate in which we live.3 I know that the Philadelphia4 Ethics Board is responsible to address5 all issues of ethics and conflicts of6 interest within the City government, with7 an eye towards promotion and assuring of8 public trust in government.9 It should go without saying10 that such a board should be committed to11 the highest standards of ethics and12 morality.13 I am also aware of the fact14 that the work of the Board of Ethics is15 always to promote the public interest16 rather than self or private interest.17 If confirmed, I do look forward18 to participating with my potential19 colleagues on the Board to create an20 atmosphere that seeks to be more diligent21 in preventing ethics violations through a22 more intense commitment to the training23 and education of City officers and24 employees regarding standards of conduct25 6 6/18/09 - WHOLE - BILL 0905011 and ethics.2 And so, again, I am humbled and3 honored and appreciative to Mayor Michael4 Nutter for the nomination, and I5 appreciate this opportunity to appear6 before City Council today, and if7 confirmed, I will serve to the very best8 of my ability.9 Thank you for the opportunity10 to testify before you today, and I will11 be pleased to respond to any questions12 that you may have.13
Thank you14 very much for your testimony. I just15 have a couple of questions, and then we16 will open the discussion with other17 members of City Council.18 As a member of the Ethics19 Board, will you be able to attend most20 meetings and have significant21 participation in most matters before the22 Ethics Board?23
You know25 7 6/18/09 - WHOLE - BILL 0905011 the importance of being at those2 meetings, because they are deliberations3 on issues before them.4
Have you6 been provided with an overview of The7 Philadelphia Code and Home Rule Charter,8 as well as policies and procedures of the9 Ethics Board?10
Under The12 Philadelphia Code, the Ethics Board13 should provide for the adjudication of14 alleged ethics violations by ensuring15 that notice and opportunity to be heard16 are provided prior to any final decision17 by the Board. As a Board member, will18 you uphold this fundamental right?19
Do you21 have any comments you want to make on any22 of those statements?23
No. I agree24 with them wholeheartedly. I've read it25 8 6/18/09 - WHOLE - BILL 0905011 thoroughly and understand it thoroughly,2 and only seek to do the best I can as a3 participating member of the Board.4
Thank you5 very much.6 The Chair recognizes7 Councilwoman Blackwell.8
Thank9 you. Thank you, Madam Chair.10 Before I make my remark, we11 have some guests here who have to leave.12 We have Carlos Suave, Secretary of13 Education for the City of Salvadore,14 Bahia, Brazil, and a delegation of guests15 from Brazil, and certainly we want to16 welcome them. They are on their way --17 (Applause.)18 COUNCILWOMAN BLACKWELL:19 They're on their way to the School20 District and they won't be here for21 Council. We wanted to welcome them.22 They're with the Chair of the Mayor's23 Commission on African and Caribbean24 Immigrant Affairs, Stan Straughter, and25 9 6/18/09 - WHOLE - BILL 0905011 I've been gifted with one of the symbols2 that originated in Africa. This is a3 symbol of their musical instrument from4 Bahia, Brazil, and certainly we are5 grateful to have them in our city.6 Thank you.7
Thank you8 very much. Thank you for your visit. We9 hope you enjoy your stay in Philadelphia.10
And I11 wanted to make remarks, if I may, about12 Pastor Damone Jones.13 Pastor Damone Jones is -- I can14 say this, which is what I've said to the15 Mayor when I heard he was nominated. His16 church is at 52nd and Girard, so he's in17 the heart of our community. It's an18 activist church that has many community19 meetings, and I am sure that we can20 have -- we can agree or disagree, but I21 am sure that Pastor Damone Jones22 understands the issues that we face and23 will understand it from all points of24 view.25 10 6/18/09 - WHOLE - BILL 0905011 In my experience, I found him2 to be a fair-minded individual, and I'm3 happy to support his candidacy as a4 member of the Ethics Board.5 Thank you, Madam Chair.6
Thank you7 very much.8 The Chair recognizes Councilman9 Greenlee.10
Thank11 you, Madam Chair.12 Good morning, Reverend.13
First of15 all, I don't know you as well as16 Councilwoman Blackwell does, but I17 certainly have heard many positive18 things. So it's good to have you here19 today.20
Just two22 quick questions, similar to what I asked23 a previous nominee. Do you think the24 Board should take whatever reasonable25 11 6/18/09 - WHOLE - BILL 0905011 steps can be made not to directly2 influence an election?3
I think they7 should. I think they should take all8 necessary steps.9
Thank10 you. And the reason I ask that is that11 there was some concern about some12 decisions that were made public very soon13 before the last election.14 And just generally, do you15 think that, again, along the same lines,16 should there be steps taken to have some17 reasonable timeframe before an election18 when those announcements are made?19
Okay.22 All right. Thank you very much.23 Thank you, Madam Chair.24
The Chair25 12 6/18/09 - WHOLE - BILL 0905011 recognizes Councilman Curtis Jones.2
I too have7 had an opportunity to get to know you and8 your church family and your dutiful wife,9 and appreciate the added value that you10 will bring to the Ethics Board by way of11 diversity, by way of understanding the12 issues of Philadelphia and, in13 particular, West Philadelphia.14 It took some time for us to15 ferret out when I first came on board16 that you were not a church in my17 district, but in fact were in Jannie18 Blackwell's district, and it has never19 mattered by way of service and by way of20 your input on public policy issues.21 I think what is important is22 that no board should be monolithic. No23 board should be just one way, and it24 should have the richness of diversity25 13 6/18/09 - WHOLE - BILL 0905011 that Philadelphia has to offer, and I am2 encouraged by that.3 One question that I would have4 is that in light of recent developments,5 would you be more open-minded by way of6 access to communication with members of7 this body when we have questions about8 whether something is in fact a violation9 or not and be able to keep an open mind10 of communications with this body and11 other bodies?12
Well, let me13 first say that I believe that we're all14 working together and not working against15 each other. That's the first thing.16 Secondly, I think it supports17 the idea of unity among all of us if we18 did have those open lines of19 communication. So I am 100 percent for20 that.21
Thank you24 very much.25 14 6/18/09 - WHOLE - BILL 0905011 The Chair recognizes Councilman2 Green.3
Thank you,4 Madam Chair.5 Thank you for being here,6 Reverend. I have not had the opportunity7 to meet you or talk to you, and I have8 heard great things about you from9 Councilwoman Blackwell, who just was over10 here singing your praises, and then again11 publicly and others and Councilman Jones,12 and, frankly, I'm torn about what I13 should do here. I might view it as a14 dereliction of my duty to vote someone15 onto a board or commission that I haven't16 had the opportunity to sit down with and17 understand sort of where they're coming18 from, what their views are about the role19 of the Ethics Board, et cetera. So maybe20 you could just tell us what you think the21 Ethics Board's role is and how you see22 yourself as a member of that Board23 promoting that role.24
Well, the Ethics25 15 6/18/09 - WHOLE - BILL 0905011 Board is charged with a number of2 responsibilities, but they are a body3 that should sit and deliberate particular4 cases as it relates to anything that is5 deemed unethical by individuals who work6 for the City. So I think my role is, as7 a participating member of the Board, is8 to sit and to hear each case on its9 individual merit and then make a10 determination along with the Board.11 Being on a board, playing on a12 team does not negate individuality, so I13 would not have any problem voicing any14 particular concerns or opinions that I15 might have, even if contrary to the16 Board's view. So in a nutshell, I think17 that's what we're charged to do.18 I think the other thing is that19 we're supposed to be -- and I don't know20 currently how much of it is being done,21 but there's supposed to be a training22 component that should, I think, in my23 estimation, should be rather intense so24 that we can be proactive rather than25 16 6/18/09 - WHOLE - BILL 0905011 reactive. If we spent enough significant2 time training and providing opportunities3 for dialogue, we might be able to prevent4 some of the things that have been5 happening here lately. So I would be6 very committed to making sure that there7 was some training going on, more training8 than probably what is happening at this9 point.10
In fact, I11 think the Ethics Board has trained every12 single City employee and did so within a13 year of its origination, and we have14 continuing training. I don't remember15 whether it's every year or every other16 year after that. And that is a very17 important part of what they do and can18 probably streamline that through the use19 of technology, allowing people to take an20 online course, having an online course21 about ethics and other things that might22 free up resources for some other things.23 But let me say, you're not a24 lawyer and you don't necessarily -- you25 17 6/18/09 - WHOLE - BILL 0905011 can read the portions of the City Code2 that relate to ethics or other things and3 form your own opinion about them, but4 ultimately you'll be relying on the5 lawyers at the Ethics Board for your view6 of what the law is. And the Ethics Board7 is also charged with enforcement of the8 law, and it's the lawyers there who9 decide what to enforce and not, the10 Executive Director and Evan Meyer and11 others.12 Do you think that that's an13 inherent conflict, that you have to rely14 on the lawyers who -- you have to rely on15 the same people to tell you what the law16 is who are bringing enforcement actions17 against people with respect to the law?18 In other words, doesn't that seem to be a19 problem?20
Yes. How do22 you deal with that conflict where you23 have the same person telling you what the24 law is that is telling you what the25 18 6/18/09 - WHOLE - BILL 0905011 enforcement action should be?2
Well, I think3 there's a difference between explaining4 and interpreting the law and then5 allowing me the opportunity to interact6 with that information and then make a7 decision on my own. So I personally8 don't see it as a conflict.9
Well, so you10 wouldn't be willing to say -- and this11 suggestion has been made in the papers by12 Richard Glazer. You wouldn't be willing13 to say that advice with respect to the14 law and the interpretation of the law15 should be -- there should be a Chinese16 wall between that, say Evan Meyer and the17 Board, and the enforcement side of the18 Ethics Board with the Executive Director19 and the head of enforcement?20
No. I mean, my21 point is, you're right, I'm not a lawyer.22 I'm definitely not a lawyer. You can23 read my resume and tell I'm not a lawyer.24 My degrees are in theology. But there25 19 6/18/09 - WHOLE - BILL 0905011 must be a reason why the Mayor wanted to2 add someone like myself to this Board.3 I don't see it as a conflict.4 I don't see it as a difficulty. Will I5 have to listen and learn some things6 about the law? Absolutely. Will I have7 to rely on them for some interpretive8 issues as it relates to the law?9 Absolutely. But I can listen to what10 they say and then make my own independent11 decisions.12
Well, it is13 a problem for me to have the same people14 telling you what the law is and you15 having to rely on that interpretation and16 then telling you, Because that's the law,17 here's the enforcement action we have to18 bring against somebody.19 That's happened recently to one20 of our colleagues. So let me put the21 question a different way.22 Do you believe that -- and you23 would have the authority as an Ethics24 Board member to make this happen. Do you25 20 6/18/09 - WHOLE - BILL 0905011 believe that the Ethics Board should2 promulgate rules that prior to them3 bringing an action in court, the person4 against whom they would bring that5 enforcement action shall have the right,6 with their own lawyer, to appear before7 the Ethics Board to explain what their8 view of the law is and why they think9 they didn't do anything wrong?10
I think there11 should be an opportunity for that type of12 dialogue.13
I just22 want to state for the record that I do23 support your emphasis on prevention,24 training and education as regards to the25 21 6/18/09 - WHOLE - BILL 0905011 ethics. I think that that's part of the2 problem. That's part of the issue that3 impacts the problems that we're having4 today.5 I just want to know, since6 you've been on the Ethics Board before,7 does the Ethics Board membership also8 have training sessions for themselves?9
You do?11 Okay. Well, that's good to know also.12 Plus, I think sometimes it might be good13 to get an opinion outside of the Ethics14 Board from legal counsel, just to kind of15 see what other people are thinking that16 also have a lot of expertise or legal17 knowledge in this field.18 I don't know you well. I read19 a short portion of your bio, and I know20 that Councilwoman Blackwell and Jones and21 all those people from West Philadelphia22 that know you like you, think you'd be23 good, and so I'm just going to go on24 their opinion.25 22 6/18/09 - WHOLE - BILL 0905011
Good6 morning. I mean, thank you.7 Councilman Clarke.8
Reverend,13 real quick. I just want to ask you a14 question with respect to the proactive15 nature of the Ethics Board. Recently16 there were some instances where17 individuals were penalized, and knowing a18 number of those individuals, I believe19 they genuinely didn't know that the20 things that they were doing were not21 within the realm of what they should have22 done as it relates to campaign expense23 reports and things of that nature, and24 they were penalized rather heavily.25 23 6/18/09 - WHOLE - BILL 0905011 As it relates to making sure2 that people understand in a clear sense3 the law and making those opportunities4 available to people at all times, a5 simple phone call, can you tell me what6 your thought is on that as it relates to7 a more proactive approach?8
Well, as I've9 said earlier today, I do think that the10 training piece is significant. If we11 spent significant time -- and I'm not12 sure what the frequency is today, but if13 we spent significant time in the training14 and the sharing and dissemination of15 information, we might be able to prevent16 a lot more of these kinds of instances.17 I think the Board's role should18 be more of a proactive stance than a19 reactive stance, and I would be highly in20 support of doing more of that.21
There's22 another situation with respect to the23 training component. Actually, there are24 a number of exempt employees. As an25 24 6/18/09 - WHOLE - BILL 0905011 example, City Council employees in terms2 of some of the things they're able to do3 politically and some of the other nuances4 of what they do outside of government,5 and in the past -- I think they actually6 changed the process in the last year, the7 last training, but in the past, there8 were essentially a number of employees,9 there was a date, and employees that were10 civil service that were exempt, different11 types of exemptions were in the room, and12 the training was kind of, Well, this part13 applies to you, this part doesn't apply14 to you. I think within the ethics law's15 regulations, there's a provision that16 allows for a department or an agency to17 actually set the parameters around their18 own training. So say, for instance, if19 City Council said -- because we are an20 independent body. City Council decided21 that they wanted to have a certain type22 of training in terms of time, when it is,23 the frequency and things of that nature,24 would that be something that you would be25 25 6/18/09 - WHOLE - BILL 0905011 supportive of?2
Sure. I think3 you might minimize confusion if there was4 a separation of the two so that the5 trainings are designed for the people for6 which they were intended. I think there7 would be much less confusion.8
All right.9 Thank you, Reverend.10 Thank you, Madam Chair.11
Thank you,14 Madam Chair.15 First, I'd like to thank you16 for your agreeing and desire to serve our17 city. I want to thank you also for your18 phone call to me making a request to come19 in and see me. I didn't think it was20 necessary. Your reputation, your church,21 your work in our community is well known.22 Councilwoman Blackwell speaks highly of23 you. I know personally of your work, and24 the Mayor has found confidence in you to25 26 6/18/09 - WHOLE - BILL 0905011 send your name over here.2 I think that in general your3 day-to-day work is dealing with sinners4 and repenters, and I think that that5 experience and your commonsense approach6 and your on-the-ground experience I7 trust. You will be -- the most important8 thing I'm looking for is a person to be9 fair, and knowing you and your10 reputation, I think that fairness is the11 hallmark of your reputation, and I'll be12 really thrilled and pleased to cast my13 vote in your favor.14
During23 our budget deliberations, I asked24 Chairman Glazer and Executive Director25 27 6/18/09 - WHOLE - BILL 0905011 Shane Creamer that they look at their2 agency as one being punitive or one of3 being preventive and compliant. How4 would you express how your interpretation5 of the Board's role is?6
My7 interpretation is that it's preventive.8 I think there are times when there are9 things that happen because of the10 enforcement, as the Councilman has11 mentioned earlier. There are some12 enforcement issues, but I think we are13 more so a preventive body.14
In light15 of what you know around the Ethics Board,16 do you think that court proceedings is17 the only mechanism to ensure that people18 comply and acknowledge mistakes?19
In light21 of the recent incidents, what is your22 opinion of the discussion and the public23 opinion of a current court case?24
I think it ought3 to remain with the Board. I don't think4 things ought to be given to anything5 outside of the Board that are not6 pertaining to the general public.7
So your8 understanding of your role is once9 something is in litigation, should it be10 discussed in the court of public opinion?11
It should not be12 discussed in the court of public opinion.13
Thank you16 very much.17 Are there any other --18 Councilwoman Brown.19
I simply24 want to underscore the prevailing concern25 29 6/18/09 - WHOLE - BILL 0905011 that has been raised by members of2 Council, both publicly and privately,3 and, that is, the lack of fairness that a4 number of us have experienced with some5 of the proceedings of the Ethics Board.6 I would presume that in your orientation7 and preparation for this morning's8 proceedings, you learned of a number of9 the -- not wrinkles, but mountains that10 Councilmembers have had to endure, and as11 those circumstances played out at the end12 of the road, there was indeed unfairness.13 So to underscore Councilman Jim14 Kenney's remarks, we need that, because15 it is lacking. We need those candidates16 to be very circumspect about the issues17 that come before them. And given who you18 are and what I know of your reputation in19 West Philadelphia, I too look forward to20 supporting, endorsing and voting for your21 candidacy.22
Thank you.24 Thank you, Madam Chair.25 30 6/18/09 - WHOLE - BILL 0905011
Are there2 any other questions or comments from3 members of Council regarding this issue?4 (No response.)5
There6 being none, thank you so much.7 We will now close the public8 hearing and go into the public meeting.9 The Chair recognizes Councilman10 Clarke.11
Thank you,12 Madam Chair.13 Madam Chair, first I would like14 to make a motion to withdraw Resolution15 090333.16 (Duly seconded.)17
It has18 been moved and seconded that we will19 withdraw Resolution 090333.20 All in favor will say aye.21 (Aye.)22
Is there23 any opposition?24 (No response.)25 31 6/18/09 - WHOLE - BILL 0905011
There2 being none, the motion is carried.3 The Chair recognizes Councilman4 Clarke.5
Thank you,6 Madam Chair.7 Madam Chair, I make a motion to8 approve Resolution 090501, with a rules9 suspension to allow reading at the next10 session of Council.11 (Duly seconded.)12
It has13 been moved and seconded that Resolution14 090501 be reported out of Committee with15 a favorable recommendation and that the16 rules of Council be suspended so that17 this resolution can be heard at Council's18 next session.19 All in favor will say aye.20 (Aye.)21
There25 32 6/18/09 - WHOLE - BILL 0905011 being none, the motion is carried, and2 this meeting is adjourned.3 Thank you very much.4 (Committee of the Whole5 concluded at 10:15 a.m.)6 - - -7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 33 1 CERTIFICATE2 I HEREBY CERTIFY that the3 proceedings, evidence and objections are4 contained fully and accurately in the5 stenographic notes taken by me upon the6 foregoing matter on June 18, 2009, and that7 this is a true and correct transcript of same.8 9 10 11 12 13 ______________________________14 MICHELE L. MURPHY15 RPR-Notary Public16 17 18 (The foregoing certification of this19 transcript does not apply to any reproduction20 of the same by any means, unless under the21 direct control and/or supervision of the22 certifying reporter.)23 24 25