COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC PROPERTY and PUBLIC WORKS - - - Room 400, City Hall, Philadelphia, PA Monday, June 4, 2007, 10:25 a.m. - - - Bill 060111 - Recessed to Thursday, 6/7/07 Bill 070273 - Ward Athletic Assoc. Agreement 7 Bill 070304 - Held at request of sponsor Bill 070337 - Companion to Bill 070446 8 Bill 070342 - Held at request of sponsor Bill 070430 - Continued to Wednesday, 6/6/07 9 Bill 070432 - Held at request of sponsor Bill 070434 - Recessed to Wednesday, 6/6/07 10 Bill 070438 - Re deed to East Tioga Street Bill 070446 - Re deed to 234 Diamond Street 11 Bill 070447 - Sublease of Tower Building Bill 070448 - Re North Front Street parcel 12 Bill 070452 - Re 1101 Market St. office space Bill 070454 - Companion to Bill 070448 13 Bill 070455 - Re Curtis Center office space. Bill 070466 - Re West Sedgely St. parcel 14 Bill 070468 - Re 2 Penn Ctr. Plaza office space 15 16 (Full text of all bills attached hereto.) 17 COUNCILMEMBERS PRESENT: 18 Darrell C. Clarke, Chair James F. Kenney Blondell Reynolds Brown Donna Reed-Miller 19 W. Wilson Goode, Jr. Frank Rizzo Jack Kelly Marian B. Tasco 20 21 - - - V A R A L L O Incorporated Litigation Support Specialists 1835 Market Street, Suite 600 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 215.561.2220 215.567.2670 6/4/07 PUBLIC PROPERTY/PUBLIC WORKS COMMITTEE WITNESS Bill No. 070447 Joan Schlotterbeck, Public Property...... C. Kirchner, Phila. Children's Alliance Helene Dow, DHS......................... 14 Kathleen Barron, Episcopal Hospital..... 20 Bill No. 070430 Joan Schlotterbeck, Public Property...... John Herzins, Public Property............ 44 9 Henry Schwartz, City Law Department...... 49 Jahad Ali, Private Citizen............... 67 10 Paul Deegan, PAID and PIDC............... 90 Bill No. 070438 Joan Schlotterbeck, Public Property...... 100 Bill No. 070446 Joan Schlotterbeck, Public Property...... 103 Vincent Dougherty, Commerce Department... 106 Director, Mayor's Business Action Team Bill No. 070337 Joan Schlotterbeck, Public Property...... 120 Bill No. 070448 Joan Schlotterbeck, Public Property...... 123 Bill No. 070452 Joan Schlotterbeck, Public Property...... 126 Henry Schwartz, City Law Department...... 135 3 6/4/07 PUBLIC PROPERTY/PUBLIC WORKS COMMITTEE WITNESS Bill No. 070454 Joan Schlotterbeck, Public Property...... 138 Bill No. 070455 Joan Schlotterbeck, Public Property...... 141 Bill No. 070466 Joan Schlotterbeck, Public Property...... 145 Bill No. 070468 Joan Schlotterbeck, Public Property...... 147 Bill No. 070273 Joan Schlotterbeck, Public Property...... 149 * * * PUBLIC MEETING .......................... 153 * * * 4 6/4/07 PUBLIC PROPERTY/PUBLIC WORKS COMMITTEE
Good morning. This is the Committee on Public Property and Public Works. We have a quorum. To my left is Councilman Kenney, Councilwoman Tasco, Councilman Greenlee, and to my right is Councilwoman Miller. For those of you who may have an interest in the following bills, Bill No. 060111 is recessed until Thursday, at 9:30 a.m. Bill No. 070304 is being held at the call of the sponsor. Also, for your information, 060111, also known as Biosolids. Would the clerk please read the title of the first bill. I'm sorry. And Councilman Rizzo has also joined the committee.
Bill No. 070447, an ordinance authorizing the Commissioner of Public Property, on behalf City of Philadelphia, (The "City") to enter into a sublease 5 6/4/7 - PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070447 agreement (the "sublease") by and between the City of Philadelphia and the Philadelphia Authority for Industrial Development ("PAID"), providing for the leasing of PAID to the City of a certain building known as the Tower Building; covenanting to make appropriations in each of the City's fiscal years to provide for rental payments due under the sublease; authorizing the Director of Finance and other officials of the City to take all actions necessary to accomplish the intent and purpose of this ordinance 16 and the sublease and other agreements; and authorizing approval of all of the terms of the agreements and other documents and amendments thereto by the Director of Finance and/or the City Solicitor.
Good morning. Good morning, Chairman Clarke 6 6/4/7 - PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070447 and members of the Committee on Public Property and Public Works. My name is Joan Schlotterbeck. I am the Commissioner of the Department of Public Property. I'm here today to testify in support of Bill No. 070447, an ordinance authorizing me, as the commissioner, on behalf of the City of Philadelphia, to enter into a sublease by and between the City and the Philadelphia Authority for Industrial Development, also known as "PAID", provided for leasing by PAID to the City of a certain building known as the Tower Building, covenanting to make appropriations in each of the fiscal years to provide for rental payments due under the sublease; authorizing the Finance Director and other officials of the City to take all actions necessary to accomplish the intent and purpose of this ordinance and the sublease and the agreements; and authorizing approval of 7 6/4/7 - PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070447 all of the terms of the agreement and other documents and amendments thereto by the Director of Finance and/or the City Solicitor. This bill will permit the City to lease certain space located at the Tower Building on the Episcopal Hospital campus, which will allow collocation of the Department of Human Services Sexual Abuse Unit and Philadelphia Children's Alliance with the existing Police Department Special Victims Unit. This collocation will permit the full integration of resources for investigating child-abuse cases. The Department of Public Property fully supports this measure; and, accordingly, I respectfully ask that Council approve Bill No. 070447. I would also ask that the rules be suspended so that the ordinance may be passed upon the second reading of Council. 8 6/4/7 - PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070447 Thank you. I am not here solo. There are plenty of representatives, both from Episcopal Hospital as well as the Department of Human Services, so we are all available to answer any and all questions you may have. I believe that both Helene Dow from DHS would like to protest -- I mean -- protest? (Laughter.)
Hope not. Would like to testify. And I also have representatives, as I said, from Temple here, and for some reason, I cannot find -- I'm sorry, here, I have it. Kathleen Barron (sp?). She would like to read testimony, and there are -- Tom Quinlan's here, Ken Chadwick, and James Wellens. Kathleen, would you like to join me? (Witness comes forward.)
Thank you, 9 6/4/7 - PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070447 Commissioner. Commissioner, are you prepared to talk about the functions of these units that will be consolidated, or are you just here to talk about the actual real estate transaction?
Well, actually, I was going to talk about the real estate transaction, but any benefit from the collocation I have representatives from DHS here.
Okay, yeah. We may want to have a couple of questions with respects to the actual operations.
And the assumption -- at least my assumption is that consolidation will allow the operations to function in a much more meaningful way?
That's correct. Helene, would you join me 10 6/4/7 - PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070447 please. (Witnesses come forward.)
And we also -- and I should probably have come up Chris Kirchner from the Philadelphia Children's Alliance. (Witness comes forward.)
Just real briefly, I just want to talk about the positives associated with consolidating the actual operations of these two units. I guess SVU popped in my head -- I'm a "Law and Order" fan, so I, you know, obviously...
I would be happy to start. My name is Chris Kirchner, and I'm the director of the Philadelphia Children's Alliance, and my agency has been driving this discussion for the past 15 years. We were founded in '89 to try 11 6/4/7 - PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070447 to improve the way that child-abuse cases are handled in the City of Philadelphia by coordinating interventions with law enforcement, prosecution, child welfare, medical, and mental health. And we do that right now out of a site at 40th and Chestnut Street, but we're not co-housed. My staff of interviewers and case managers and support staff are there. And when there's cases, DHS workers come down from Center City, police officers come down from Northeast Philadelphia, children still have to go out to have medical exams at Children's Hospital l Children's Hospital and Chris and Temple. And it's kind of like pushing a really big, heavy rock uphill, with everybody in different venues. So we've been talking with all of the partners about how we could improve this intervention, how we could improve collaboration, how we could 12 6/4/7 - PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070447 improve outcomes for kids and families, and we looked around the country and saw large urban environments moving to the model where they really brought everybody under one roof. And so what we would be doing under one roof is a lot of joint work with law enforcement and child welfare to 3nsure that kids were safe. We would have also my agency there, we would have medical exams conducted by CHOP and St. Chris there, and we would just try to do everything that we could as a one-stop shop, improving efficiencies and effectiveness. I do have some remarks that I'll be happy to share with you, but what we found is, a coordinated approach results in more contacts during the investigation, more frequent in-person interviews, more perpetrators removed from homes, more perpetrator confessions, more frequent victim corroborations, more substantiated 13 6/4/7 - PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070447 reports, more dependency filings, more positive criminal prosecutions, and more guilty pleas. But ultimately, it also results in a better process for kids. Small children aren't required to go all over the city to be interviewed in many different venues by many different people. They'll walk in the door of this facility and you'll get the sense that this is a city committed to kids. All of the services will be there, they will be coordinated, children will be interviewed and have their medical exam on the same day, physicians will work with DHS workers and police officers to assess the cases collaboratively, kids will get services a lot faster, they'll get medical exams faster, they'll get mental-health services faster. And ultimately, we feel that the way to go is through a collocated facility from my perspective as the director of the agency that's been 14 6/4/7 - PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070447 working to implement a coordinated approach. Right now, at 40th and Chestnut, we capture about 40 -- maybe 30 to 35 percent of cases collaboratively in Philadelphia with DHS and the police. Our goal is to capture a hundred percent of allegations of child sexual abuse, of which there are 160 a month reported in Philadelphia, and also some physical abuse cases from a collaborative -- a very strong, deep collaborative perspective.
I'm sorry. My name is Helene Dow, H-E-L-E-N-E, D-O-W. I'm the Director of Intake at the Department of Human Services, and I want to thank you for the opportunity 15 6/4/7 - PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070447 to address you this morning. This has been a journey that the Department has started back in the mid-'80s in an effort to improve services to children who have been sexually abused. And there was the initial collaborative effort to create the Alliance back at the end of the '80s. Then most recently, in 2002, the Department created a specialized section that consists of an administrator, five supervisors, and twenty social workers that receive the reports coming into the Department to investigate of child sexual abuse. Currently, as you know, all of these reports must also be reported to the police. So what we have are two units all investigating the same incident, and this results in duplication of effort, wasted time, and a potential loss of information gathered by one system that the other 16 6/4/7 - PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070447 does not have. What we're envisioning is that when a report comes in, whether it comes into the police first or to the Department, the other system can be notified almost simultaneously, which doesn't happen right now. With that, we can be more creative and flexible in developing a strategy for making the initial contacts and how to proceed with a case. Right now, scheduling joint interviews between the police and the Department of Human Services is often a logistical nightmare because we're coordinating schedules of the DHS worker, the police officer, the PCA interview, and the family. Most of the families that we're working with now are working so that every time they have to take off work to go to meet with the police officer for a medical appointment, for an interview at PCA, or to be at home 17 6/4/7 - PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070447 for an interview with the department, this is adding to a stress to a family that's is going through an incredibly difficult time. Needless to say, that results in missed appointments. Families don't show up, an officer is suddenly called to court, an emergency arises on the DHS social worker's case load, and so then, the interview has to be rescheduled. If we were collocated, if something untoward occurred, there's another colleague right there, and the interview can proceed.
So we envision savings in time and a reduction of lost time and travel time for the Department.
I just wanted to ask all three units going to be there -- the Sexual Abuse Unit, the Children's Alliance, and the Police Department Special Victims Units?
Okay. Now, are there any facilities for overnight stay if there should be --
We've talked, though, about possibly having some resources -- cots or something -- so that if kids came in in the middle of the night, you don't want to interview children in the middle of the night, but you may not be able to send them home. And in some jurisdictions, they have the provision to keep children there temporarily. It's not 19 6/4/7 - PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070447 like a placement; it's just a temporary opportunity so that the safety of a child can be ensured until the interview and all of the players can be pulled together the next morning.
And the Department will, of course -- the staff from the department who would be colocated would be connected with the main office at 1515 Arch Street, where our hotline is, and they can secure emergency resources overnight if that's necessary.
Thank you. You said it was located on the -- what did you say, Episcopal?
It's the Episcopal Hospital campus, which is a part of Temple University Hospital.
100 East Lehigh 20 6/4/7 - PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070447 Avenue in North Philadelphia.
I'm sorry. You have to identify yourself for the record.
I'm sorry. My name is Kathleen Barron. I am the Executive Director and Chief Executive Officer of the Episcopal Hospital campus. The el stops right at Huntington Street, and there are several buses that run up and down Lehigh Avenue.
Thank you Let the record reflect that Councilman Kelly has also joined the committee. Any other questions by members 21 6/4/7 - PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070447 of the committee? (No further questions.)
There being none, thank you very much. Let the record reflect that Bill No. 070432 will also be held at the call of the sponsor of the bill. The clerk will please read the title of the next bill. * * * 22 6/4/07 PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070430
Bill No. 070430, an ordinance authorizing the Commissioner of Public Property, on behalf of the City of Philadelphia, to lease or convey to the Philadelphia Authority for Industrial Development for nominal consideration all or part of a certain triangular parcel of land with the buildings and improvements telephone situated in an area generally bounded by Penrose Ferry Road to the north, Hog Island Road to the east, and I-95 to the southwest, under certain terms and conditions.
Good morning. My name is Joan Schlotterbeck. I am the Public Property Commissioner. I'm here to testify on Bill No. 070430, an ordinance authorizing me, as the Commissioner, on behalf of the City, to lease or convey to the Philadelphia Authority for Industrial Development all, or part, of a certain triangle 23 6/4/07 PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070430 with the buildings and improvements therein situated in an area generally bounded by Penrose Ferry to the north, Hog Island Road to the east, I-95 to the southwest, under certain terms and conditions. This bill will enable the City to either lease or convey this property to PAID for further conveyance to a developer at fair market value, with the net proceeds being deposited into the General Fund. The Department of Public Property supports this measure; and, accordingly, I respectfully ask that Bill No. 070430 pass and be approved. I also ask that the rules be suspended so that the ordinance may be passed upon the second reading at Council.
Thank you very much. 24 6/4/07 PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070430 Who's the developer and what's the project?
It actually has a companion bill. This is an area -- it's about 5.8 acres of land oddly shaped down there where we have our Emerson Landfill. And also there is no identified developer at this point. We have three people short- listed, and this is one of the parcels.
The use? The use, yes. It could be either -- well, there's three competing interests down there, and each one seems to be able to work out the issues with the others, so we're hoping that we have one purchaser. It's going to be dredging. PRPA and another company is looking at all of these. This one has yet to be -- this is just an ordinance.
Is it 25 6/4/07 PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070430 going to be dredged or is it going to be dredge spoils or is it going to be developed?
It -- I don't have an answer for you yet. We're in the process of negotiating. I don't have an answer.
This particular parcel is just identified as able to be sold. The companion bill is the --
I guess arguably every parcel of land or property that we own is able to be sold.
Why would we want to put it in a position to be sold unless we knew what it was going to be used for. Once we release it out of hour hands and PAID has it, there's very little control we have over the 6/4/07 PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070430 parcel and what its use is going to be Job.
No, I understand, but would the RFP come back to here? For example, if they wanted to use the site theatrically to put the spoils of the dredge material for a temporary period of time while they're doing the dredging work, that would be something that certainly we would want to know about before we release the property to PAID, to a private land owner. I mean, I have a hard time kind of voting for the authorization to sell a piece of property when I don't know ultimately what the piece of property is going to be used for.
Well, as I said, there's a companion bill here -- 27 6/4/07 PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070430
-- for the other two, and the competing interests PRPA, a firm that wants to do some dredging, and also a local firm that wants to use it as a construction site. And we have yet to -- I understand what you're saying, but that is still in the process of being negotiated. And this other parcel is right there, right by the train line, the rail line, and it -- basically, I guess you're right. It does queue it up for further.
I mean, I'm not trying to be difficult but why wouldn't we work out all of the details first and then come back to get our approval to then sell the land for that purpose that rather than having three unknowns. I mean, I have a hard time voting for something when I don't know what they're going to be using it for. 28 6/4/07 PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070430 If it's going to be used to store construction equipment, that's one thing. If it's going to be used to store what's coming off the dredge project for a long period of time or a short period of time, I'd like to -- I'm not against it but I'd like to know it. If it's going to be developed by PRPA for use as some sort of use facility -- container or whatever -- I'd like to know that, too, but I have a hard time trying to guess at what may happen.
Commissioner, once the deal is consummated between any one of the three parties, in order for it to be -- the property to be disposed of or conveyed to that entity, does it have to come before Council for a 29 6/4/07 PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070430 resolution?
No. And the idea was that all three -- as you just stated, all three of those users, it appears that we're trying to work so that all three of them get what they need. You know, the local company stays, the dredging happens, and PRPA gets what they need. And this piece of land helps with that so the idea was to have it queued up to give everybody the opportunity to get what they needed down there.
But it could be queued up at any time. I mean, it doesn't need to be queued up prior to what we know what the use is going to be. Want if they want to build a casino there? I mean, I don't --
I'm not 30 6/4/07 PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070430 saying that they want to, but I mean, it doesn't eliminate -- once it's in private hands, they can practically do what they want to do with it. And whether it has an environmental impact or a community impact or an economic impact, I would rather know in advance rather than cutting it loose now.
What was this -- was there some activity on this land before recently? What was the activity at this location?
To the best of my knowledge, no. It's a very oddly shaped --
No, no. 22 That's the Victory Gardens. That's the companion bill, Victory and Emerson.
We were anxious to get rid of the farmers for 31 6/4/07 PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070430 some reason that I still haven't figured out.
No, that's the Victory Gardens, and the Victory Gardens and the Emerson Landfill and this parcel are all City-owned in the same area, and they're all up for sale.
I agree with Councilman Kenney that I'd like to know what's cooking there before we give you any authorization.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess my question is sort of on the same lines. Commissioner, is this unusual that you're giving the land before the deal is consummated?
I'm not 32 6/4/07 PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070430 giving anything. It has to be appraised, and we don't even know the value of it at this point.
But, as Councilman Kenney said, this would authorize us to give it to PAID, right?
Well, it -- if -- maybe it's a poor choice of words, but it queues it up for future disposition. It doesn't have to -- it doesn't do anything more than that. Am I right?
But can't the -- I guess I didn't hear the answer. I think Councilman Kenney asked the question. Why is it -- can't it be done in reverse? Why can't the deal be worked out and then we're here and we know exactly what the plan is, and then we give it to PAID.
Right. We actually had this very similar discussion a few months ago about us 33 6/4/07 PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070430 authorizing PAID, which is technically an agent of the government in some respects to sell property. And our concern then, and our concern now, is that once we authorize PAID to do its conveyance for a sale, it never comes back here. And I can't recall the resolution of that discussion, but we find ourselves again here, being obviously concerned about -- particularly in this location and the reference of dredging, a situation where property could be conveyed to a company, and it never comes back this Council, and I don't know what relationship you have with the District Councilperson where this parcel is. But it, again, concerns us. And I think before, we were talking about some process that notified the Council, short of a resolution, of the sale of the property or the ultimate company that was selected to develop 34 6/4/07 PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070430 the site.
Well, would it be possible to continue this specific hearing until our Wednesday hearing? And maybe I'll have more specific answers or...
Mr. Chairman, I would like -- on the next hearing on this, I would like to have an opportunity to question the three or two or one of the future owners. For example, if it's a construction equipment site, how many trucks are you going to have? where are they going to exit and enter from? I need to have people there I can specifically ask questions about as opposed to kind of guessing what may be used in the parcel.
Okay. And to answer the question, the Council President is very aware of this whole situation down there and is supportive 35 6/4/07 PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070430 of what we're doing.
But she knew that I was putting it on the table for the three groups that have competing interests for the other two parcels.
All right. I'm uncomfortable with it until I know what they're being used for.
I guess I'm not hearing the answer to my 36 6/4/07 PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070430 question. I'm not trying to be combative here, and I think Councilman's (indiscernible) too. Why do it this way? Why? Why can't we do it as we're suggesting -- work out what the best deal is and then work with one entity that can answer any questions that anybody might have?
Okay. We can do it that way. I just -- they're still not there yet, we're still negotiating.
Let me take a run at this. The reason why you do it this way is because PAID is an entity that probably best serves the interests of the City in terms of marketing and selling properties --
-- as opposed to Public Property. 37 6/4/07 PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070430
But the issue still remains: Even if they're the best entity to market or sell or do whatever they need to do with respect to the property, there's still this vacuum as it relates to us knowing what the end-game of that transaction is.
Couldn't they still be involved before this bill 24 is passed by us? I mean, couldn't there still be that interaction? 38 6/4/07 PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070430
I think we Council have to authorize Public Property to enter into an agreement with PAID.
Right. But the question is: Is there a step that requires the ultimate approval or notification of Council upon the completion of the transaction? And that's where we have a problem.
Mr. Chairman, also, there's environmental issues with the storage of construction equipment, there's some very specific standards that have to be met -- paving, et cetera. So, you know, you just don't --
It is a potential for a lot of problems. 39 6/4/07 PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070430 Councilman Kelly?
Well, actually, Councilman Clarke asked the question I was going to, but I just want to know about the companion bills. Are they in the same position as far as this?
No, that's further along. I mean, in terms of answering Councilman Kenney's questions, we have identified -- we know what the value is, we had an RFP process, it was marketed, we short-listed to three firms. 40 6/4/07 PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070430 And in the process, we discovered that we owned another oddly-shaped parcel right in that area, right by the rail line.
This is that parcel. It's about 5.8 acres of ground. We do not even know the value at this point.
We can estimate it based upon what we know about the others.
I don't see any need in coming to us this morning on this bill. I think it would be better for everyone just to have to pick someone and then have that someone come in here with yourself and anyone else that's interested in this so that we could at least know how this parcel's going to be used. 41 6/4/07 PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070430
All right. A couple of things. The reasons why I approached it this way was, the other two -- and, again, that bill will be coming up. They're in -- the proceeds from those sales, we were hoping that done by the end of June. That's $2.5 to 4 million.
That's -- we're not -- I do not know exactly what use.
I understand, but three competing 42 6/4/07 PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070430 interests aren't exactly the same activities, correct? So we don't know -- it's not three competing interests for a construction storage yard; it's three competing interests for three separate potential uses. So if we're looking forward to recouping or to getting the revenue from the sale, we should at least know what the ultimate use of the property's going to be before we sell it.
Right. And maybe would it be possible to continue this specific bill until Wednesday and maybe I will have --
But you're not going to -- will Public Property make a decision on who the end-user is by Wednesday?
I'm not -- if I don't have an absolute answer, at least an answer and a letter of support from the Councilwoman -- I mean, I -- we're working on it, there are people 43 6/4/07 PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070430 working on it as I'm speaking here and now.
But at this point as we sit here, there are three competing interests, we don't know which interest is going to get the okay.
No. 10 What's happening is, they're working together so that each one of them gets what they need down there in that area.
But we don't know what the uses are specifically other than it's the DRPA and a construction company and who else?
The dredging company. So we don't know what they want to do there; we just know -- we happen to know who they may be, but we don't know what they exactly intend to do. 44 6/4/07 PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070430
Well, I don't have the exact answer to the plans, no. 5
I would just like to make a comment, please. John Herzins, Public Property. I think I understand all of the Councilmembers' concerns about not knowing the end-user. The reason we want to do get these two bills hopefully passed and transferred to PAID is because of the urgency of all three people who are interested in that companion site. Hopefully, all of them will involve job creation and expansion of their businesses. So we didn't want to really have to wait until October, November, December to get this bill passed. We had hoped originally to have a selection made at the time for the 45 6/4/07 PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070430 Victory Garden Emerson site, but we didn't want to delay it till the fall, and that's the reason why we were hoping to get this transferred to PAID, so that we could continue that negotiation.
Mr. Chairman, just a hypothetical on that particular point. What if the dredging company gets chosen for the acquisition of a parcel of this property? What are they going to do there? What's their activity? What do they store? Do they store anything there? Does the stuff leave on a daily basis? does it leave on a monthly basis? Do I have stuff piling up there that I don't know what it's going to be? I mean, I don't think that the dredging of the river is as bad an environmental situation as some people 46 6/4/07 PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070430 would like you to believe, but I don't know that it isn't, either. So do I have piles of stuff laying there are for six months, three months, a year? I don't care -- I mean, he may create jobs, but if I don't know 8 what it is that they're going to be 9 putting there, why would I release the 10 property now? 11
On that 12 particular note, the proposal for that 13 usage is to mix dredging with cement or 14 a dry cements kind of filler and ship 15 it off via the railroad to a site in 16 western Pennsylvania. 17
Is there 20 going to be a facility built there to do that, or is it going to be done in the open? See, these are the specific questions that I don't necessarily think is going to stop the approval, 47 6/4/07 PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070430 but it's questions that we legitimately need to legitimately ask as elected officials who represent that area, the at-large people, the district people. Is it going to be a facility that's closed, where the stuff goes in and they mix it inside? Is it mixed outside? I mean, if I cross the bridge and I see another car crusher facility or similar, that's not too -- I don't care how many jobs that creates; I don't know if I want that. But unless I have some specifics and can talk to somebody other than you guys, who I like and trust, I need to know who the end-user is.
All right. Well, it's very likely that it will be PRPA, and they'll work out --
Well, you said there was PRPA, the dredger, and the construction company; that's three 48 6/4/07 PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070430 entities. And you're saying from all the parcels down there, you're looking to try to carve out pieces for each.
Is there anything from a legal perspective -- you know, of course, Councilmembers think we can do everything, but I want 49 6/4/07 PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070430 to ask you on the record as a representative from the Solicitor's Office -- that can require that PAID, prior to its disposition, after the contract has been consummated, that you come back to Council for a resolution 8 for ultimate disposition?
Henry Schwartz from the City of Philadelphia Law Department. It's up to Council's discretion. If Council wants to condition the sale on that, it's within Council's discretion.
Okay. I just wanted to ask the question on the record.
But, Mr. Chairman, I don't understand why we can't wait just until we have all of the facts and then approve the sale. I'm not -- I'm of no mindset to stop this from happening, but I'm not going to do it with blinders on. 50 6/4/07 PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070430 It just doesn't make sense to me. I don't feel like I'm doing my responsibility is, which is to know the facts and then vote accordingly. And I'd like to see the principals here; I'd like to at least talk to them and ask them what it is they do and who they are and where they come from and what their track record is in other areas of the region or the country. I don't know who I'm giving the property to.
Commissioner, when we had the issue with the Victory Gardens, which the companion bill is that site, correct?
We clearly asked the question, what was the reason that we were relocating the farmers 51 6/4/07 PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070430 from that location? And I'm recollecting that conversation. And it was we weren't -- we didn't know, it was kind of vague on exactly what we were planning. And I think I even asked the question, Did it have something to do with the dredging of the Delaware? And I was told not by you but other folks that it was not. Now it's turning out that it is; is that correct?
No. The truth is that this was an initiative of mine and sort of a commitment as the new Commissioner of Public Property. The Victory Gardens as they stood in the past needed to be dealt with. It was just an operational nightmare, and there were a lot of issue there is, and I identified it as a parcel for sale.
But now it's very interesting that we move the farmers out and now we have a use 52 6/4/07 PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070430 that's appeared almost immediately to use it possibly for the dredging of the Delaware River, correct?
I don't know it's for the entire dredging. It's a company that has an interest in doing some part of a process in that area. The responses back from each one of these groups are very detailed. All of the questions that you have will be answered. The reason why I guess -- if you want to say I'm being vague, it's that we do not -- we are still negotiating, we are waiting to see who actually purchases it, and at the same time, I understand that each of these needs will be met -- the other two firms, the car crusher goes away, these people get -- I mean it's all a part of a grand plan. Again, I think we will have the answer by Wednesday. This has been 53 6/4/07 PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070430 going on for quite some time.
You can understand that I wouldn't be doing my job -- and I don't want to speak for my colleagues -- of representing our constituents by approving something like this unknown. I mean we trust you, but guess who takes it? We do, if something goes wrong here.
And I would suggest your policy on bringing this to us gets adjusted because this has happened too many times. I mean, this is not the first time that we've had this debate about making these transactions unknown. And I think, going forward, that your policy should be to listen carefully today of what we ask and have that process implemented so that it doesn't get presented to the Public Property Committee in the future in 54 6/4/07 PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070430 this manner so we don't have to spend as much time. If we knew and had the answers today, we'd be moving on here, but we can't because we don't have the answers, and I wouldn't feel --
I wouldn't feel I'm acting responsibly by approving something that we don't know that could back fire on us.
You're welcome, Councilman. Commissioner, Wednesday, 11:30, you'll be prepared to give us the information?
Yes. And just so that I'm clear, I mean, basically what you're saying is not only this but the companion bill, which 55 6/4/07 PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070430 --
Well, yeah, actually, I'm looking at the bills, and virtually all of them require us to approve authorization to convey to PAID, so we'll ultimately be in a similar situation with all of these bills. And I in no way, shape, or form want to recess all of these bills until Wednesday. But this is a problem. I'm just thinking. I recall us having this debate and actually thought we did something legislatively to change the process that required that you come back to us for ultimate disposition, but maybe we ended up not doing that.
Well, I think this one happens to be an anomaly today. This one parcel I do not have an identified user, I do not have a value because I knew the use of the other two parcels, and I knew that this 56 6/4/07 PUB PROP/PUB WORKS - BILL 070430 one would help resolve all of the issues, we put it in the same position to be sold in the future.
All right. On this one, why don't we just hold this bill until the Public Property meeting at 11:30 on Wednesday.
Mr. Chairman, may I request that in addition to the panel here that we have some of the end-users, the potential end-users --