Fine. Don't you take notice that we had hearings? I asked a question last year of the gentleman. That was notice for me, at least. I asked last year, these people are committing fraud, they're stealing from these individuals. What are we going to do about it? I asked that last year.
Councilman, as I understand these practices, there are allegations that the person had a contract, it was explained to them, they put their name on the contract, they didn't realize what was happening, and before you knew it the person owned the house.
Fraud can be a crime. But it also can be a violation of contractual obligation. 2337 3/13/02 - WHOLE- BILL 020001 ('03 BUDGET)
But it depends on how you prosecute -- the definition you just gave fits right into what was happening. Mike Fisher went at it from one side. We were asking your office to go at it from the other. You gave a definition, which I find very nice which I think fits right into case. These individuals were not gone after. These predators were let go. Last year we went through this. I asked, "What are you going to do about the information we ask in these hearings?" People were named.
Councilman, with all due respect, all of the cases which we were aware of, we went after. There's a general phrase that's been used, and last year when we talked about this "predatory lending" is not a legal term.
We understand that. Please. People were taken advantage of. People were fraudulently induced to enter into some contracts. Money was stolen, period, through these fraudulent contract. No criminal charges have been brought against these individuals who perpetrated this crime against poor people in the City of 2338 3/13/02 - WHOLE- BILL 020001 ('03 BUDGET) Philadelphia. Fisher, yes, is going through civil. But I believe criminal charges should -- or at least investigated.
Well, where there are crimes, we prosecute them. The crimes that we have found have been when the District Attorney went through the circumstances where the home improvement scam artists would either do no work or start some work and then just abandon the job. When we find these crimes, we prosecuted every single one of them. We investigated every single one of them.
That's what happened there. They took the money, they didn't finish the job. What more do you want?
Councilman, I think you and Mr. Deutchman are talking about two different universes. You're talking about where some poor person signs a contract that ultimately because of the wording of the contract, because of the --
Where fraud has been committed and that poor person has been induced to signing contract.
No, no. I don't think 2339 3/13/02 - WHOLE- BILL 020001 ('03 BUDGET) that's always the case. I think what happens is from our investigation and my personal involvement in this matter, what happened was people, instead of reading the contract --
Most of them couldn't read English. Most of them were non-English speakers.
Councilman, you can get as upset as you want. It's not going to change the facts of these matters one iota. What happens in these cases is a smart-aleky guy goes to a person. The lady wants her kitchen fixed. They give them a paper. The lady or the gentleman doesn't understand what's in the paper. The sharp practicer says, "Here, I'll explain to you what's in the paper." They sign the paper on the word of the sharp practicer that is a contract. This person can't prove or say what the person said other than they said this is what the paper said. The consumer never reads the contract, never asks somebody else to read the contract, never goes to the somebody who can explain to them like the legal services at Community Legal Services or at Congresso. They sign their name. That is not a crime. It's 2340 3/13/02 - WHOLE- BILL 020001 ('03 BUDGET) inappropriate. And where the laws have been violated if it's a crime, we'll prosecute it. But not understanding something you sign or not reading it or relying on somebody else's word is not necessarily something that we can prove in court. And that's why the Attorney General has prosecuted these predatory lenders under the State banking laws because there you have some civil relief. It doesn't prevent people who don't understand what they're signing from refraining from signing these papers. They do it, unfortunately, all the time. And by working with Congresso and other people and through City Council, we try to tell people, "Don't sign something you don't understand. Don't rely on the person who's selling you something to explain honestly and truthfully what you're signing." And people sign it anyway. That's a violation of contract. It's not a crime because we can't prove what was in the mind of the person when he entered into this agreement unless there's a whole lot of them. And in which case the Attorney General's Office is the appropriate person. Where it isn't, we take over.
Well, they fit under 2341 3/13/02 - WHOLE- BILL 020001 ('03 BUDGET) the definition you gave. I think you should have proceeded, at least investigated it thoroughly.
We did. And we worked with the lawyers that you were in the same room I was with up at Congresso. What's lawyer's name representing CLS?
That's right. Mr. Ackelsberg and Mr. Deutchman were almost joined at the hip for a long period of time. And we tried to help Mr. Ackelsberg every possible way we could. We were facilitating his matters, not obstructing them.
I think Mr. Ackelsberg and Mr. Deutchman broke off from the hip at one point.
What, 144 requests? 2342 3/13/02 - WHOLE- BILL 020001 ('03 BUDGET)
I said we gave notice under Rule 108 that this was a case that potentially fell within the death penalty.
I'm not going through the same debate that Councilman Nutter went, but I didn't hear him ask about gender, race and economic situation of the 144 individuals that were solicited.
I love it the lawyers disagree on language. It makes the rest of us feel that we have a chance this in world.
The notice that you ask for, the question wasn't asked, how many were in terms of race, economic background, gender.
We don't consider economic background or race or gender. We consider --
I would like to find out how many were blacks, how many were Latinos, how many were whites. You do have that.
We can get for you how many people killed, how many people of the same race 2343 3/13/02 - WHOLE- BILL 020001 ('03 BUDGET) and generally speaking --
I didn't ask that question. I asked the question of how many people, notice were filed for death penalty and I'd like a breakdown of their race and economic background if possible. Obviously, if a notice was filed they're going to be charged because they killed somebody. I just want to find out the race and the gender and the economic situation of the individual, if possible.
We can't give you any information on economic situation. What we can give you raise and gender.
Fine. Just give me that. The state of Illinois has asked for a moratorium on the death penalty. Is there any judicial basis for that?
Governor Ryan concluded that there basis for his imposition of the death penalty moratorium in Illinois. And whatever basis upon which he made it, that's what he made.
That was because mistakes were done, isn't it? 2344 3/13/02 - WHOLE- BILL 020001 ('03 BUDGET)
Some were prosectorial misconduct. Some were defense attorney ineffectiveness.
And that, of course, have never happened in Pennsylvania?
I'm not aware that the Governor has ever asked for a moratorium on the death penalty in Pennsylvania.
No, I'm not saying that the Governor has asked for that. I'm asking that those situations have never occurred in Pennsylvania, prosectorial misconduct and so on.
I think life is not a perfect game. There are mistakes in everybody's life. Trials are similarly not perfect. You're never going to get a perfect trial. There are always mistakes. The question is --
Except that if you make a mistake here, it could cost somebody's life.
The question is whether or on the not the mistake is of such magnitude as to amount reversible error or reversible conduct. When in Pennsylvania that has happened, the cases have been reversed and either tried again -- 2345 3/13/02 - WHOLE- BILL 020001 ('03 BUDGET)
I understand that. The people had the economic wherewithal to either pursue go through it.
No, that's absolutely not true. Most people who are on death row are not millionaires. Most people who are on death row don't have financial wherewithal.
We understand that. Very few people that are rich get the death penalty.
But they have wherewithal from counsel, whether appointed or provided to seek redress including the Public Defender's Office in Philadelphia.
I understand. Very few rich people are in death row anywhere.
Some do. Mr. Marshall is 2346 3/13/02 - WHOLE- BILL 020001 ('03 BUDGET) on death row in New Jersey. Some rich people do go to death row.
What's the breakdown of that, how many Latinos, how many blacks, how many women?
It's roughly the same as it was last year, Councilman. It's been, as you know a very tight economic year. I think it's roughly or percent African-American. I don't 17 remember the percentage of Latinos. 18
I think it's about 14 in the office, the same number, roughly speaking, give or take that we gave last year. I don't have the breakdown, but I can certainly get it for you.
Could you give that, please? 2347 3/13/02 - WHOLE- BILL 020001 ('03 BUDGET)
Relatively speaking, yes. And you know, $42,000 a year doesn't attract a whole lot of people.
We look everywhere. We have extensive recruiting on campuses --
Well, let me finish my last statement. We canvass and go to campuses all over, both in person and we talk to all the compass recruiters around the country. So our net is very wide, including all the Pennsylvania universities and all states.
But usually you hire out of the people who intern in your office.
How many interns usually do you have in your office per year? 2348 3/13/02 - WHOLE- BILL 020001 ('03 BUDGET)
I don't know the exact number, but I can get it for you. We obviously have a lot of summer interns.
Paid interns, maybe a dozen. Unpaid interns or work study, maybe 50, 60 more.
In the last three years how many of those interns have been Latinos?
I can't answer that question, Councilman, but I can try to ascertain it.
Well, actually I can try. We don't ask a person's national heritage. And sometimes you can't tell from a name what their national origin or heritage is, and we don't ask. So if somebody's is Smith, they could be Latino. We don't know that.
Yeah, but if their name is Rodriguez, they probably are.
Well, if their name is Rodriguez and they're married to a person named Rodrigues, that doesn't necessarily mean that. We 2349 3/13/02 - WHOLE- BILL 020001 ('03 BUDGET) are not permitted to ask a person's national origin, sexual orientation, or anything else.
We can give you a breakdown of who we perceive to be black, white, Latino, Asian or something else. We can do that.
I asked for a staff first and then I want to find out you interns every summer. I just want to know how many of those are minorities and how many of those are Latinos.
I have no further questions at the present time. I'll be back.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Just a couple last questions. With Councilman Ortiz's permission, I would like to ask 2350 3/13/02 - WHOLE- BILL 020001 ('03 BUDGET) if I could possibly amend his information request. With regard to the -- we've talked about the 144 notices. I think the Councilman asked about a race and gender breakdown. He also asked about socioeconomics. And I understand that you may not take a financial profile of people when they come in when they've been charged. But as a part of that analysis, one of the factors that might give us some interesting information is if you could along with the other information about the person whether it's raise or gender, maybe you could add to that whether they were represented by the Public Defender's Office, whether they received court-appointed counsel or whether they had private counsel. And some in some instances that might be somewhat indicative of their financial situation.
Thank you. Could you provide us with, as you have in the earlier testimony I asked you about the number of homicides, the number of homicide cases disposed and you very in a most responsive fashion gave information on a year-by-year basis about those. Could you also give information with regard 2351 3/13/02 - WHOLE- BILL 020001 ('03 BUDGET) to for all of those years, and I think you've given information generally from 1990 through 2001. For those same years, the number of people every year who were in essence put on death row or received a death sentence? I know you said that in 2001, for instance, when you gave extensive discussion about the 2001 statistics, I took it down as being two. I'll assume that that's the number for 2001. If you have the other years --
1991, 7; 1992, 12; 1993, 11; 1994, 6; 1995, 8; 1996, 7; 1997, 3; 1998, 6; 1999, 9; 2000, 5; 2001, 2; 2002, 1. In other words, we've had one defendant who was sentenced to death last week for a double murder outside of Evolution. That's the murder of Sung Hou Willis (ph) and Raneil Quan (ph).
Do you have year to date for 2002 number of homicides?
I only ask 2352 3/13/02 - WHOLE- BILL 020001 ('03 BUDGET) because --
That's fine. I only ask because he had given 1990 through '01 and I just want to keep all the numbers straight.
Charles Gallagher, Deputy District Attorney. As of yesterday, Year 2002, the City has had 48 homicides. I believe there was one last night makes it 49. At the same time period last year we had 43 homicides.
So in the period from 1991 through I guess last week, 77 people have been sentenced to death in Philadelphia?
And along with the -- I'm not sure if Councilman Ortiz's request will cover this because I know he asked about the 144 cases for 2001. Could you give us at the same time a race, gender, and type of representation analysis for the 77 people who have been sentenced 2353 3/13/02 - WHOLE- BILL 020001 ('03 BUDGET) to death row in the last years? 3
I can tell right now the 4 vast majority of the defendants were 5 African-American and the vast majority of them wee 6 male and the vast majority of them were represented 7 by court-appointed or Public Defender. 8
But you'd be able to 9 give a complete statistical breakdown? 10
Now, what is the cost of a death penalty case versus a non-death penalty case, both naturally homicides or both involving homicides. But the one in the 2001 numbers that you gave for instance, notice was given in a 144 cases. 67 were actually approved. So for the moment, unless I'm wrong, and I'm sure you'll correct me, the 67 that were approved proceeded down a death penalty track, if you will. And the other 83 where notice was given did not. And then you have the other 145 which with were homicide disposed cases that death penalty notice was never even given. What's the difference in cost between a death penalty case and a homicide prosecution versus 2354 3/13/02 - WHOLE- BILL 020001 ('03 BUDGET) a non-death penalty case?
All homicide cases are very actively litigated whether they're death penalty or not death penalty. Death penalty more so than other kinds cases because there's more at risk. But life sentences are always hotly litigated on appeal, multiple appeals up and down the courts for 10, years or more. But we never do things on the 10 basis of cost. And I couldn't tell you how much it 11 cost. You and I have had the same conversation in 12 years past, and we never put a dollar value on 13 anything because we don't do by the hour figuring. 14
But it's more time consuming to do the most serious cases, life or death.
I understand that. Taking for a moment some of emotional issues involved here or any of the moral issues or should you apply or should you not apply, more from a management and operation standpoint, I mean, there must be some cost factor. I mean, there must be -- it must be calculable as to how much it cost to take one course of action versus another course of 2355 3/13/02 - WHOLE- BILL 020001 ('03 BUDGET) action. And I understand that maybe unlike the private sector, people are not necessarily billing on a six-minute clock. But I mean, time is time and money is money and people are paid certain things to do certain jobs. So there must be -- I mean, we can calculate how much it cost to pick up trash, run a rec. center, put a police officer out on the street or participate in a wide variety of activities. So, I mean, there must be a cost factor involved here. Can't that be calculated?
We don't do it on the basis of cost and there's no way to figure out --
I'm not asking do you pursue it on the basis of cost. I'm just asking what is the cost.
I don't know. We couldn't figure it out if we even tried because we don't do the prosecution of any case on the basis of cost. What we do is not the same as running a rec. center and we don't quantify things on the basis of cost. We just do whatever we need to do within the law and we don't put a price tag on it. 2356 3/13/02 - WHOLE- BILL 020001 ('03 BUDGET)
I understand that. I mean, I know that -- I mean, certainly in the private sector they can calculate what it cost to be involved in a wide variety of litigations. And I guess I'm just asking again from a management and operations standpoint, whether you make the calculation or not, it must be something that can be calculated, true?
You can't figure out based on either how much a person makes or how much time is involved or how much resource has to be expended, expert witnesses that have to be called or tracked down or interviews that have to take place, you're saying that it is not possible to calculate the cost of prosecuting a case?
Councilman, we're interested in pursuing truth and justice. It's not the same as trying to figure out how many widgets a factory makes. It's unquantifiable. It's unquantifiable.
Unquantifiable. 2357 3/13/02 - WHOLE- BILL 020001 ('03 BUDGET)
How is it possible in 2002 that something cannot be quantified?
We're not interested in quantifying how much it is to prosecute that the guy who hits you over the head. Why would we want to spend --
Then make that distinction. Don't say it's not quantifiable. Say you're not interested in quantifying it.
It is not quantifiable what we do. It is not quantifiable how much it costs us to vindicate your rights as a victim if someone breaks into your house. And we have no 15 interest in pursuing that exercise. We have know interest whatsoever and not the capacity either to go figure out how much it costs for the police to investigate, for somebody to make an arrest, for someone to investigate, for us to prosecute somebody who broke into and scared your wife and your child to death. We don't do it. We don't do it and we don't have an interest in doing that.
I understand. It's a very compelling image. What I'm askin is about management operations and that it must take an 2358 3/13/02 - WHOLE- BILL 020001 ('03 BUDGET) amount of time, resource, and personnel to do one set of actions versus another set of actions. How long does it take to prosecute --
Let me finish my question at least. If we're all going to be sensitive here.
How long does it take to prosecute a death penalty case versus a non death penalty case?
No, no, we don't do it that way. This is not a firm trying to figure widgets. We're talking about human lives. We don't quantify it.
That's very good. How do you then figure out what your budget should be?
We try to figure out as best as we can what our overall needs are, but we 2359 3/13/02 - WHOLE- BILL 020001 ('03 BUDGET) don't put a dollar figure on what we are doing. Frankly, the budget if we tried to figure it out, we couldn't get a budget and you couldn't afford it. So we try to be realistic with how many lawyers we think we need to cover X number of courtrooms, but we don't break it down per cost or per victim case. Just like I can't ask a victim, "How much is the life of your husband worth that we're prosecuting his murder?" These are unquantifiable. We're trying to achieve and ineffable goal; it's called justice. And you don't quantify how much that search costs. What we're doing for the budget people is not what we're doing to figure out, well, we'll spend $3 a case or $6 a minute or 13 cents a motion. We don't do it that way.
Do you think -- what's the impact of the person's ability to afford representation in a death penalty case? Is there anymore or less likelihood that will be found guilty depending on their ability to afford a higher or lower level of representation?
Well, listen, Councilman, I mean that if you're rich, if you're Bill Gates you can hire 500 lawyers. You can be convicted or 2360 3/13/02 - WHOLE- BILL 020001 ('03 BUDGET) acquitted. Obviously, if you can afford everybody you want you might have a better outcome. But it's by no means a guarantee. We have seen wealthy people convicted like Alfred Taldman (ph) convicted of fixing prices in New York. We've seen rich people go to jail, we've seen poor people go to jail. But obviously, if you can afford hire the best lawyers in the world and you have the pocketbook to do it, it's very nice. But people who are committing the kinds of street crimes that we see are obviously not generally speaking the multimillionaires of the world. They do it a better way. They do it with a pencil. They put companies like Enron out of business and cost multiples of millions of dollars and then make wonderful excuses about it on television. They're going to hire lots of lawyers who will litigate those issues. But poor people can't do that.
For all the bad things they did, I don't think any of them are going to prosecuted for a capital offense. That's really kind of what I'm talking about. So again, I go back to the question. The question was, more or less likely based on 2361 3/13/02 - WHOLE- BILL 020001 ('03 BUDGET) socioeconomics and at least here in Philadelphia, in your defense versus essentially the DA's Office, are you more or less likely to be convicted based on your ability to afford representation?
I don't believe that that has anything to with it. You're convicted because you're guilty. That's why people are convicted in Philadelphia. And frankly, the quality of lawyer that we get from Public Defender and court-appointed counsel are the best lawyers in Philadelphia. They put up spirited and very good defenses, but they can only go and at the end of the day all they have to work with is whatever the evidence is. And I don't believe, at least in Philadelphia, the Philadelphia that I've known for over 35 years, that you're going to be convicted because you have a Public Defender. And I don't think the Public Defender is going to follow me and say, "Oh, yeah, we convict because we're Public Defenders." They're good lawyers. I have defended the Public Defenders quality of representation for a long period of time. But when it's all said and done, the evidence is whatever the evidence is.
I understand that. 2362 3/13/02 - WHOLE- BILL 020001 ('03 BUDGET) No, they're probably not going to say that because I read their testimony and, actually, they don't say that. They apparently have a very good track record and. "Since its inception in April '93 during our time handling homicide cases, we are pleased to be able to report that no defender client has received a death sentence. The only problem is they don't defend everybody.
They plead them guilty. That's the fact, they don't go to death trials, they plead them guilty.
So your testimony or your view or your perspective is that ability to afford a certain level of representation has no 20 impact whatsoever --
What I'm saying is that a person's ability to hire private counsel wonderful. 2363 3/13/02 - WHOLE- BILL 020001 ('03 BUDGET) The richest people in the world can get the best lawyers. And sometimes the outcome is altered by better lawyers, but not always. And with regard to our homicide defendants, the ones I'm familiar with, I haven't seen any multimillionaires that I'm presently aware of who are alleged to have committed capital murder in Philadelphia. And the quality of lawyers that are either hired by the family and they are frequently hired by the family at great expense to them and the Public Defender and the court-appointed lawyers do a very good job.
Well, so do you or do you not think that ability to pay has an impact on whether you're convicted.
I don't think so. Not in Philadelphia, no. Because of the quality and quantity of representation.
You have any particular response to the joint task force of the Pennsylvania State and Federal Courts who made a determination that the quality of counsel for the poor in Pennsylvania capital cases was characterized as a problem of main major proportions? Do you have 2364 3/13/02 - WHOLE- BILL 020001 ('03 BUDGET) any reaction to that?
And I don't necessarily agree with their findings. But in Philadelphia it's not an issue. I think we get very, very, very good counsel who are put through requirements. There are minimum standards at the very least. Most of these defense attorneys are former prosecutors, many of them with many, many years of experience, sometimes 10, 15, 20, years of experience. They're awfully 14 good. But at the end of the day it's whatever the 15 evidence is that's going to determine ultimately 16 what's going to happen in the case. You can take 17 fancy dan lawyers you want. That rarely will have 18 an impact. And in addition to that, in Philadelphia 19 our defendants are not millionaires, and the quality 20 of representation they get is of a very high 21 standard. 22
Okay. Two last 23 things. Council passed a resolution a couple years 24 ago about this particular issue. And one of the 25 items that was mentioned was that two of the nations 2365 3/13/02 - WHOLE- BILL 020001 ('03 BUDGET) foremost researchers on race and capital punishment, Law Professor David Baldis (ph) and statistician George Woodworth (ph) conducted an exhaustive study of Philadelphia death sentences which revealed that the odds of receiving a death sentence in Philadelphia are greater if the defendant is African-American. Do you agree or disagree with that.
Well, first of all, the Baldis study is a total fake and has been discredited up to the United States Supreme Court and in the New Jersey Supreme Court. It's a total manipulation of what the facts are.
This is a resolution 16 that Councilwoman Miller introduced. So Councilwoman Miller was incorrect to write that?
No, you're asking two different questions. You can write whatever you want. You're the Council of Philadelphia. If you want to write that anything you want to about anything, that's your prerogative.
I understand that. I'm just asking you was the Councilwoman wrong to put that in a resolution? 2366 3/13/02 - WHOLE- BILL 020001 ('03 BUDGET)
That is councilmanic discretion. All I'm saying is that the facts upon which see relied, the so-called Baldis study are a total fraud.
Make sure you tell her she had the right to do the resolution, but it's my considered judgment and others that the Baldis study is not a good study.
I will definitely mention to her that you gave your full approval for her to write her resolution and that you felt that the study was incorrect.
That's not what I said either. I said Council has its discretion to write anything they want. All I'm saying is that the Baldis study is not the hook that I'd want to hang my hat on.
Okay. So put that study aside, is there any more or less likelihood as a function of race as to whether or not you get the death penalty?
It's not a function of 2367 3/13/02 - WHOLE- BILL 020001 ('03 BUDGET) race, no. It may be a function of how many homicides are committed and against whom, but it's not a function of race. All of cases that I have spoken about in the past years as in this year, the killer and his victim are more often than not of the same racial or ethnic group.
Right, I think we know that from national studies. Generally, especially homicide -- it's generally intraracial which is why various people of various colors and hue should be less concerned about certain people when they walk down the street as compared to some other people. People of other races have generally less to fear from people from different races as they do generally from people of their own race, right?
I think that there is some misperceptions on the part of people with respect to that. Our homicide figures are absolutely clear that crimes are committed. Those homicides are committed by one person against a person of his or her same race or ethnic group. That is beyond any question whatsoever.
Although the general 2368 3/13/02 - WHOLE- BILL 020001 ('03 BUDGET) public perception may be very different because of attitudes and perceptions and things like that.
The real issue for me, Councilman, is that if our figures and the Police Department figures mirror this fact that the greatest bulk of our killings are in the minority community, of one minority committing a crime of homicide against another, that is a great national as well as public concern insofar as the City of Philadelphia is concerned.
You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Brown.
Thank you, Madam President. I yield to my colleague Councilman Cohen because he does have to leave, and I'd be happy to go after him.
Thank you very much Councilwoman Brown. The discussion today about the death sentence I think is very important. Would you be concerned it turned out that in black-on-black 2369 3/13/02 - WHOLE- BILL 020001 ('03 BUDGET) crime, for example, as contrasted to white-on-white crime that more blacks were sentenced to death than whites were comparatively?
Councilman, I'm concerned about all homicides committed by all people against any other person. Proportionately, if there are more people who are killing people in one racial group than the other, then it stands to reason that more people of one racial or ethic group might get the death penalty than the other. But, however, here's the real question. The question is, is it just because a jury finds that one person of is of a certain racial group and for that reason that they impose the death penalty. And I believe in Philadelphia, that we attempt as much as possible to make certain under our law that as far as we as prosecutors are concerned, the decision to go forward with the death penalty is not based on the race of anybody, victim or defendant, but is fact specific.
Well, I think I would agree with that conclusion, but that would not necessarily remove the question of race and maybe even income from factors. For example, you state 2370 3/13/02 - WHOLE- BILL 020001 ('03 BUDGET) with a lot of good basis that at the end of the day the evidence is what the evidence is. But it's also that earlier in the day, the evidence that exists at the end of the day may depend upon the finances of the defendant or the competence of the lawyer in discovering the evidence because evidence does not automatically present itself. Frequently lawyers develop their fine reputation because they do so much work digging and digging and digging until they get the evidence. In addition, throughout the country, there is a great concern as to moral questions about the death penalty, apart from legal questions, and that debate is raging everywhere. And it is a concern, I think, to the people of Philadelphia that Philadelphia seems to be characterized as the place where the death sentence is asked for more frequently.
It's not a request for the death penalty when we give notice. The rule of criminal procedure requires us to give notice that this may be a case where the death penalty may be a possible sentence. If we don't give a timely notice, later on when we find out that Person X 2371 3/13/02 - WHOLE- BILL 020001 ('03 BUDGET) committed this crime with a whole bunch of aggravating factors, we won't be able to go back if we miss the time. The fault maybe, if you want to call it that, that the Supreme Court Criminal Procedural Rules Committee has given us a time deadline. We're going to meet the deadline. Second thing. It is not surprising to me nor should it be surprising to you and I don't think it is, really, that we have more death penalties or more murders than any place else in Pennsylvania. We have the highest crime rate of almost anything in Pennsylvania. So it shouldn't surprise anybody that with the horrific figures that I've given you, which is 4700 -- just think about it. Almost 5,000 people were murdered in Philadelphia in the past 11 years. That's almost twice what was killed in the World Trade Center. We've had almost two World Trade Center killings in Philadelphia in the past 11 years. I don't see any great ringing of hands and gnashing of teeth as a community because they happen one at the time. But when you add them up, some guys with 2, 3, 4, 5, 7 murders, I mean, these figures say a hell of lot about Philadelphia. We've got 4700 people plus 2372 3/13/02 - WHOLE- BILL 020001 ('03 BUDGET) murdered in Philadelphia and we're ahead of where we were last year in this City. That's what we ought to be talking about, not how many angles can dance on the head of an pin about how much money it cost to prosecute a case. What are we doing about these horrific figures. I can tell you what I'm doing. But that's what the community ought to be incensed about.
Thank you. One, madam DA, I would certainly say and I think all other Members will agree, yes, we are very concerned about that. Two, I don't think that -- at least today, maybe in the past -- I don't think anyone asked about how many angles can dance on the head of an pin. But three, as the arbiter of discretion, I will take the discretion to ask any question that I want and you'll exercise the discretion whether you want to answer or not. But I am concerned how is it that a person -- because I think your last point is very compelling. How is it 2373 3/13/02 - WHOLE- BILL 020001 ('03 BUDGET) that a person could commit four, five, or six, unless they did them all at the same time, different homicides and have those opportunities to be back out on the street in the first place?
That was a long point of information, Councilman Cohen, I apologize.
First of all, no one disputes, not I certainly, anybody's right as I just evidenced by my response to you about Councilwoman Miller, anybody's discretion to talk about anything. But at the end of the day, Councilman, almost 5,000 people have been murdered in Philadelphia in the past 11 years. That's pretty stunning.
And for our purposes, it is quite common for people to murder and commit multiple murders. Sometimes they're committed a the same time. Sometimes they're committed serially. Sometimes they're committed before the police find out what happened. In the most recent case with Club Evolution, there's a series of crimes outside there, including robberies. And a predator who came 2374 3/13/02 - WHOLE- BILL 020001 ('03 BUDGET) back and killed two people on two different days. And we have the Lex Street case which is coming up. We've had too many cases like that. Soo you can't possibly answer all the questions that you've asked or that anybody might want to ask and get answers and understand it all because, just like I said, trying to figure out the dollar amount is incalculable. You can't even figure out why people would want to do what they do.
I understand that. I mean, we'll probably never get to the end of that. What I am trying to understand is how does the person get out? They've convicted of murder. And we don't have to go back and have another death penalty discussion. But how do they get out to do it another time or another time or another time? How does that happen?
Sometimes it happens because the Governor commutes a life sentence. Sometimes it happens because --
Well how many life sentences have been commuted in the last ten years?
I don't know, Councilman. I really don't want to get into that. It's just too 2375 3/13/02 - WHOLE- BILL 020001 ('03 BUDGET) much.
All I'm saying is that people murder people in Philadelphia at an astounding rate.
I've got to leave, and I'd just to make this brief comment. I would like to see in Philadelphia that we participate in this national debate because the taking of a life criminally or by government is a very serious matter. We worry about it during wartime. We worry about it during peace time. I would like to see the issue not considered solely as a legal issue, but to consider all the moral implications. I think such a debate is occurring throughout the country. I would like to see Philadelphia participating in it. I believe you were doing what you believe is a correct think to do. People who are protesting actions also, I believe, are doing what they think is the right thing to do. I would love to see Philadelphia be the center of debate because this where the 2376 3/13/02 - WHOLE- BILL 020001 ('03 BUDGET) center of Liberty and all kinds of intellectual questions have been raised. The beginning of the public school system came out of Philadelphia. I would like to see us participating in that debate. And I would hope that all the parties are open to this kind of discussion. I think the real serious questions of morality in the country where economic conditions affecting different ethnic groups are so different from each other and where there seems to be a body of evidence, how real it is, we can debate. But there seems to be a clear body of evidence that your economic ability, your ethnic background has a lot to do with ultimate outcomes. And in that concern and that's far beyond the ability of any of us individually to change anything, I would like to see that debate proceed and I would like to see Philadelphia as part of that area involved in the debate. So respectfully, I urge upon the District Attorney and all people to reconsider questions, reexamine, and deal with this not just as a legal question but as a moral question as well. Having said that, Madam President, I ask to be excused because I'm due at a Zoning Board 2377 3/13/02 - WHOLE- BILL 020001 ('03 BUDGET) hearing in a crisis in our neighborhood where the community is sharply inflamed by a proposal being made by a developer.