COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC HEARING & MEETING, COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Tuesday, 5/4/99, 11:25 am - - - BILL 990181 - Amending Title of Phila. Code 6 entitled "Miscellaneous" by adding a new Chapter 21-1400, "Tax Increment Financing Districts". . . 7 RES. 990261 - Appointing Chas. M. Warfield, Jr. to City Ave. Special Services District Board. 8 RES. 990262 - Appointing Andrea Gilbert to City Ave. Special Services District Board. 9 RES. 980933 - Appointing Andrea Brescia to South Street/Headhouse District Board. 10 RES. 980934 - (Withdrawn) RES. 980935 - Appointing Bernice Hamel to South 11 Street/Headhouse District Board. RES. 980936 - Appointing Steve Giannascoli to 12 South Street/Headhouse District Board. RES. 980937 - Appointing Fran Holtzin to South 13 Street/Headhouse District Board. RES. 980938 - Appointing Rick Millan to South 14 Street/Headhouse District Board. RES. 980939 - Appointing Michael Samschick to 15 South Street/Headhouse District Board. RES. 980940 - Appointing Abner Silver to South 16 Street/Headhouse District Board. 17 PRESENT: COUNCIL PRESIDENT ANNA C. VERNA, Chair COUNCILWOMAN AUGUSTA A. CLARK 18 COUNCILWOMAN JANNIE BLACKWELL COUNCILMAN DAVID COHEN 19 COUNCILMAN JAMES F. KENNEY COUNCILWOMAN DONNA REED MILLER 20 COUNCILMAN MICHAEL A. NUTTER COUNCILWOMAN MARIAN B. TASCO 21 COUNCILMAN FRANK DICICCO COUNCILMAN RICHARD T. MARIANO COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO CHAS. MCPHERSON, Chief Financial Off. - - - VINCENT VARALLO ASSOCIATES, INC. Registered Professional Reporters Eleven Penn Center, Suite 600 Philadelphia, PA 19103 (215) 561-2220 2 PUBLIC HEARING - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE I N D E X BILL NO. 990181 William Hankowsky, President. . . . . . . . . 3 Philadelphia Industrial Development Corporation RES. NO.'s 990261, 990262 David L. Cohen Executive Director . . . . . . 41 City Avenue Special Services District. RES. NO.'s 980933, 980934, 980935, 980936, 980937, 980938, 980939, 980940 Richard (Dick) W. Ostrander. . . . . . . . . 67 Executive Director South Street/Headhouse District 3 5/4/99 Comm. of Whole - Bill 990181 P R O C E E D I N G S
Good morning. This is the public hearing of the Committee of the Whole. I would ask Mr. McPherson to please read the title of Bill No. 990181.
An ordinance amending Title of The Philadelphia Code entitled 10 "Miscellaneous" by adding a new Chapter 21-1400 11 entitled "Tax Increment Financing Districts" and 12 providing for certain reporting requirements. 13
Please 17 identify yourself for the record and proceed with 18 your testimony. 19
Thank you, Madam 20 President. Good morning. My name is William 21 Hankowsky, and I'm President of the Philadelphia Industrial Development Corporation, here today to testify on Bill No. 990181 regarding Tax Increment Financing reporting requirements. As you're aware, an economic 4 5/4/99 Comm. of Whole - Bill 990181 opportunity plan or an affirmative action plan is developed in direct and active consultation with City Council staff, and is acknowledged or, in effect, approved by the staff under the authority of the Council President's office. I am in support of the concept and the spirit that Bill 8 No. 990181 represents since it is an extension of the economic opportunity plan. Furthermore, similar language proposed by this bill is in two already-approved TIFed ordinances, the Pavilion Market East and the West Philadelphia Retail TIF. However there are some technical and administrative problems associated with the bill 15 as currently drafted. First and foremost is the language proposed in Section 2. And, to quote: "The provisions of this ordinance 18 shall take effect immediately and shall apply to any Tax Increment Financing District established prior to, on, and after the effective date of this ordinance, and the reporting requirement shall apply to the full term of any Tax Increment Financing District, including any years which such district has been in existence prior to the date this ordinance became law." 5 5/4/99 Comm. of Whole - Bill 990181 For each TIF district, a number of legally binding documents are executed. One document known as "the TIF Agreement" is executed by PIDC through the Philadelphia Authority for Industrial Development ("PAID"), the City, the School District, the private lender of the TIF note (for example, a bank), and the developer. This agreement delineates the terms and conditions of the TIF transactions and the obligations of all the parties involved. New conditions, as benign as job reporting might be, cannot be unilaterally imposed on already-approved transactions. Each TIF agreement and other documents must be amended. The process of amending each agreement would be difficult for several reasons, including, but not limited to, other participants in the agreement needing changes that they might ask for, once you start negotiating a document over, that might not be acceptable to the City or to PIDC. Of particular concern would be the reaction of the TIF note lender, or often banks. Lenders, conservative by nature or training, would view changes to a TIF deal, we believe, is a 6 5/4/99 Comm. of Whole - Bill 990181 problem. The TIF agreements as they stand are fully enforceable under law. PIDC would be pleased to request and encourage response from all developers and businesses within a TIF district for job information, existing districts. Any TIF developer that has tenants with letters of intent or leases executed could request the job information; but again, the response would be voluntary. Going forward with new TIF districts, we would request the information as proposed in this bill. So we're -- I just want to make the point that we're totally comfortable doing this. Going forward --
-- I just want to be careful that if we can't get somebody voluntarily to do it who already has a transaction, we can't unwind their TIF deal; that's my only concern here. As I previously mentioned, a TIF developer provides an economic opportunity plan. We'd be pleased to provide this data as 7 5/4/99 Comm. of Whole - Bill 990181 development is completed and enterprise occurs on the utilization of minority, female, and disadvantaged businesses within the district. Again, legally, this may not be enforceable for existing TIFs, but we would request such and use our influence with the developers to obtain such. We will also require this data for all future TIFs brought before City Council. In closing, we support approval of Bill 11 No. 990181, provided Council would make the revisions that we would suggest. Thank you very much.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Good morning, Mr. Hankowsky. Mr. Hankowsky, I've read through your testimony on a couple of occasions since receiving it, I think, yesterday or possibly on Friday. What I don't understand, I guess, about the testimony is, first and foremost, the bill does not request anything of PIDC. The bill 24 specifically asks the mayor to make certain reports to City Council. That's first. 8 5/4/99 Comm. of Whole - Bill 990181 Second, I would get the impression from your testimony that you're not already asking for the information that's a part of the reporting requirement in Bill 990181. Now, it cannot be your testimony that we don't already have access to, if not require, this limited level of data about this kind of financing, some of which are fairly extensive. You're not saying that we're not asking for this information already, are you?
No. What I'm saying is -- and it will vary, Councilman. Well, maybe I have two comments. One is, I appreciate that the ordinance requires the mayor to make the request, and I guess I'm being proactive in the sense that I --
'Cause I assume we'll end up having to compile the information, so. . .
Well, we can establish for the record that we are not asking PIDC in this bill to do anything. 9 5/4/99 Comm. of Whole - Bill 990181
But I think the only way -- to be quite candid, the only way to really be in the spirit of the bill is to require that the various kinds of information delineated in the bill be included in the reporting requirements that would be in the various TIF agreements that we would enter into.
That we would all be comfortable, no matter who's head of PIDC or who's the mayor, that the information would be necessarily provided.
So on that point, on the other 12 TIFs, 'cause 2 of the 14 TIFs that we've done have this reporting requirement in them. Are you saying that on the other 12 TIFs, there's no requirement for anyone to keep information on the number of construction and permanent jobs and demographic data on those jobs? 10 5/4/99 Comm. of Whole - Bill 990181
No, I'm not saying that. I want to be precise as to what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that we have a pipeline of TIFs that have been approved.
A number of those TIFs included, for example, economic opportunity plans. Even though in the Council action on the TIF, there wasn't this reporting requirement.
As in the last two. So the Loew's Hotel -- simply pick one.
There's a plan. The plan's being executed, reports are being provided. They're being monitored by OHCD, the Office of Housing and Community Development.
And the data that's provided -- again, we'd be pleased to provide to whoever would be interested in it.
But there was not necessarily an equal-opportunity plan in every one 11 5/4/99 Comm. of Whole - Bill 990181 of the TIFs that were previously approved. The one I can think of, I think -- I do not believe there was a plan for the PNC Operation Center. That's just the facts. I just don't think there was one.
So since there wasn't a plan in place, that information wasn't tracked. It was built -- it's built. I mean, it's there.
We can go back and we can ask the developer to tell us, you know, who they used and what happened. And we would be pleased to try to do that and get whatever information there is, but we may not be able to get every type of -- they may not have, you know, demographic -- I'm making up -- you know, in their files or whatever, and they'd have to go find subs to find out who was the actual worker.
And one of things I'm 12 5/4/99 Comm. of Whole - Bill 990181 particularly concerned about is --
But you're not saying that there's anything wrong with us asking and --
And trying to find out the answers to those questions, right?
And I, in my testimony, say we would be prepared to go and get it.
I just don't want to be in a position where -- I just want to be clear. I've tried to -- even if we don't agree in this chamber, I try to be forthright in this chamber, that I will try to get what I can get, but I just want to be clear that I may not be able to get every type of information listed here.
And I just, on the record, want be clear that if such -- when the first anniversary of a report is due, that people understand that for the, quote, old ones, we may not have it all, and just that people understand that. 13 5/4/99 Comm. of Whole - Bill 990181 The other example as an example is with PNC, and PNC is a great corporate citizen, and they'll probably do this for me if I just ask them.
But, as an example, Liberty Property Trust was the developer. There's a lease between them and PNC. The TIF note actually goes to Liberty Property Trust. If I -- now go to -- I have no contractual right at the moment to go to PNC and ask them to provide me with the demographic data on the 1500 people that work there.
I understand. You can ask them on behalf of the mayor who's trying to be in compliance with the ordinance.
They can say, "We have it," or they can say, "We don't," or they can say, "We have some of it." And the mayor will report whatever the mayor has been able to gather, 14 5/4/99 Comm. of Whole - Bill 990181 and then it will be left to us to react to it.
If they choose not to be cooperative or share the information, then that's life in the big city.
I understand. But I just want to be clear that, A, I'll use the term "a TIF recipient developer corporation," or whatever, who is either unable to provide this data because they just didn't collect it whenever it happened, or are conceivably even unwilling to provide it for some reason. I mean, some companies don't want to send out salary information. I mean --
No, and such an entity 15 5/4/99 Comm. of Whole - Bill 990181 is not in default of their in-place TIF agreement and --
-- they can tell a lender that they're not in default. I just want to --
I know that you're a well-read man. There is not one mention of the word "default," "take-away," even for the moment, "claw-back" or anything else.
It is a mere reporting requirement. People can report, they cannot report.
And they can only give us what they're willing to share with you. And if a TIF recipient who got public dollars is unwilling to make a report to the governmental body that approved their TIF, then that's their business. 16 5/4/99 Comm. of Whole - Bill 990181
And we'll then do whatever it is that we choose to do about it or whatever we're legally able to do about it. Or we may not do anything about it.
All I'm asking is that there be a reporting requirement for certain information, that the mayor report it on a date certain, and we'll take it from there.
Right. And I just want to make -- I mean, again, I think it's all in the spirit of having this discussion. The other point I want to make is that, which is in my testimony, to the degree again, on the old ones, I don't want to go back and say I want to negotiate the right to require them to do it because, to be very blunt, I don't want to reopen the agreements. We are often -- I'll be honest with you, we are often -- parties often come back and say, Well, could we redo the agreement. We have a little thing we'd like to change. Nope, the deal's the deal. 17 5/4/99 Comm. of Whole - Bill 990181
So I don't want to give them an entree to ask for something by me --
There is nothing in the bill that makes any reference to reopening agreements.
It's not a repealer bill on somebody's TIF, it's not trying to get something that we don't have a right to, also. It's a mere reporting requirement.
They can choose to report, they may not. But, you know, you'll know if somebody reported if you get a 2-page report from one recipient and you get a 15-page report from another; we can figure that out.
But I appreciate 18 5/4/99 Comm. of Whole - Bill 990181 you putting items on the record and, I mean, I don't see where we are in conflict as it relates to this particular bill.
Thank you. Mr. Hankowsky, does PIDC provide information to the State Department of Commerce in order to assist them in the preparation of their report to the governor? Because, according to the Act, the Department of Commerce and Cooperation, where there are other state agencies and local governments, shall make a comprehensive report to the Governor and General Assembly every two years, commencing January 1, 1992 so as to the social, economic, and financial effects and impact of the Tax Increment Financing District projects.
Do we, in fact, report to the Department of Commerce?
I will confirm this. I don't believe that there is a formal reporting 19 5/4/99 Comm. of Whole - Bill 990181 mechanism that they have established, and I say that because I know in some other programs, they have a -- there's very formal mechanism. The Small Business First Program, we actually formally do a quarterly report that we have to submit, and we get (unintelligible) notices if we don't send it, so I'm very conscious of when they formally ask for it. I think basically what the State Commerce Department is keeping track of are the -- I'll use the term "the TIF directs" that are established in the Commonwealth, simply a listing of them and maybe the amount of the TIF note. But there is no large or exhaustive reporting mechanism that's established at this point.
Thank you, Madam President. In the discussion you were having with Councilman Nutter, I find the discussion more confusing than clarifying. It seems to me you are presenting arguments, though you haven't said what I'm about to say, that you're seeking to provide 20 5/4/99 Comm. of Whole - Bill 990181 justification for the recipients of TIF benefits not to answer questions. We're all adults here. We know businesses have to make their own decisions ultimately. But it would seem to me the spirit of the bill we're talking about would incorporate the strongest possible efforts by the mayor and those under the mayor to secure that information. We're expressing a real interest in having that information under those terms. We would expect people to get it. No one has said, as Councilman Nutter appropriately pointed out, that you have to get it because you're not in a position where you have to get it, but you are in a position where you can try very hard to get it. Most TIF recipients may be wanting to come back at a later time for another arrangement with the City, which might be in the interest of both parties, and a decision would be made later. But, obviously, how they respond to this might impact on how Council would look at a second request. Also, if they don't want to give this information, it creates a suspicion about what may have occurred, you know, with respect to the 21 5/4/99 Comm. of Whole - Bill 990181 problems that are raised. So I would just like to feel that if -- that the -- your PIDC and the mayor, whoever the mayor would happen to be at any given time, would be working to secure the information that the legislative body, correctly called "the governing body" by Councilman Nutter, gets the information it wants. And nobody's going to hold your feet to the fire. We know you can't compel it. But I am concerned that you put forth excellent justifications as to why you can't get it, and that that may indicate that there's going to be something less than a really best effort to get it. I think a very good case could be made out for each company to get it. Nobody wants them to go through huge expenditures. Most of them will have available information. It may take a little time to do it. And it seems in the spirit of cooperation, they ought to be willing to do it. And they're not going to get punished if they don't do it with respect to the existing TIF. And I'm just concerned about why you 22 5/4/99 Comm. of Whole - Bill 990181 are so intent in pointing out that you can't get it. And that's the reason I make these comments. I think there should be real best efforts made in every way to get that information. And then, as Councilman Nutter said, it ought to be reported back. So this is not really a question, it's a comment. But you're free to comment on that.
Yeah. My comment will be extremely brief, Councilman. We will use our best efforts. I'm not -- you know, as I -- perhaps I was unclear, and I didn't mean to be unclear. You know, we accept the spirit of the proposal and have no problem prospectively actually putting in the documents that people are required to do reporting. And in going, quote/unquote, backwards in trying to get the information, I simply want to be clear that I'm going to do the best I can, make my best effort. But I just want to make clear that at the moment, I don't have a provision in some of the agreements that require them to do it. So what I will get I will bring to this body, and you will have it. And then, as 23 5/4/99 Comm. of Whole - Bill 990181 Councilman Nutter said, you all can use that information as appropriate. That's all. I just want to be clear about what I have and don't have the right to do.
You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilman Kenney.
Thank you, Madam President. Considering the fact that the bill is going to require the mayor to do certain things, I, as a member of the body, would be interested in knowing what the mayor thinks about this. Obviously, it was clear from your testimony and your discussion with Councilmember Nutter that PIDC is not being required to do anything specifically; it's the mayor that's being required to do it, and we haven't heard either verbally or in writing anything from the mayor. I mean, it would benefit me in my deliberations and final vote as to what the mayor 24 5/4/99 Comm. of Whole - Bill 990181 thinks about this since it's he that we're requiring to do something.
I believe -- and I will confirm this, Councilman -- but I believe my testimony this morning is both on behalf of PIDC and the Administration. But I will confirm that to make sure we've reviewed our testimony with the Administration.
I appreciate you being here and explaining your position both retrospectively and prospectively, but I'm more concerned about what the mayor and the mayor's people think about this since they're going to be the ones to be required, for the most part, to retrieve the information on the 12 TIFs that didn't provide the information through the documents. I think prospectively, we'd have to just make a judgment based on who the next mayor is, whoever he or she may be, you know, whether they would be in favor of it or not. But this particular mayor, based on the 12 TIFs he needs to retrieve the information for, I'd be interested in knowing from him or his chief of staff what their 25 5/4/99 Comm. of Whole - Bill 990181 positions are on the bill.
Thank you, Madam President. I just want to say that I agree with Councilman Cohen, that when you bring the Tax Increment Financing District proposals to us in legislation, we are always told what it does for the City, that there are so many jobs generated, what the benefit will be. And it seems to me that it is not an onerous request to ask for the documentation to substantiate the request. If we take for face value your comments, 'cause we're not given -- we say, Well, it's going to create so many jobs. Well, does it really create jobs? So backtracking on the spirit of the testimony and the questioning that takes place during the course of the discussion of the ordinance, it seems that we ought to be able to retrieve some information to document what you say. So it's not a demand; it's a request for information that we would require to substantiate 5/4/99 Comm. of Whole - Bill 990181 what was told to us when they came to us. The other thing in terms of the mayor, I think it is the mayor, whoever the mayor is, it is that requirement that we were placing on the mayor since he is the titular head of the Administration and you report to him. So, therefore, the mayor, though PIDC, would see that this is brought forth. Whether this mayor likes it or not, it puts a requirement on the mayor of the City of Philadelphia to do it. Thank you very much.
Thank you, Madam President. Mr. Hankowsky, going back to the 12 TIFs that have not been requested to provide data, could you -- could you describe the bureaucracy or the amount of effort that it would require? When we constantly hear businesses complaining about data and reports and information and they're trying to make a living, what burden do you anticipate we'd be putting on these organizations 27 5/4/99 Comm. of Whole - Bill 990181 to go back and gather all this data that would be needed?
Councilman Rizzo, that will -- to be candid, that will vary by each TIF, so I'm going to do this partially off the top of my head. But the PSFS, City Hall Annex, Reading Terminal, the ones that are in construction or nearing completion, had economic opportunity plans. So probably most, if not all, of the data picked up by this ordinance is actually available. The Bartram, which was the PNC, did not. So that's an example of where I just don't know whether they can go back, given it was built, and retrieve some of this data from contractors and subcontractors. Franklin Plaza is under construction, so presumably, they could give us a level of information. But, as you can see, the glass is going in, it's getting close to being done. Um, I'm just looking here. Most of the others have not started construction. So if we tell them now that we want this kind of data, they can probably get close to compiling it. Understand also, this ordinance -- or 28 5/4/99 Comm. of Whole - Bill 990181 proposed ordinance -- requires that, for example, employment information be done over the life of the district. And I'm not saying that's a good thing or bad thing; I'm just saying that's what it requires. Most of the economic development programs generally have either a 3- or a 5-year reporting period, so this would be a 20-year period. But, again, presumably, a company can, you know, make a run and tell us how many people are working in the hotel years from now and do 13 that. So it's an amount of work. 14 I -- other than the two -- the one 15 that's physically complete and the one that's deep in construction, I think most of this is probably not a big task bureaucratically for their clients. I don't think it's a big task.
What would you -- how would you suggest when we would ask for that information if there would be something that would surface that wouldn't be favorable or a problem that is identified how we deal with that?
Well, I'm not sure -- I guess I would start with, I'm not sure what the 29 5/4/99 Comm. of Whole - Bill 990181 definition of a problem necessarily would be. I mean, there's two aspects. One is, if they don't report, is that, quote/unquote, a problem? And I think in the spirit of the questions and answers I had with Councilman Nutter, I mean, I think the spirit of that is we will tell you that. You know, we will tell you that "Acme Widget," we asked them with our best efforts, as Councilman Cohen requested, and they told us this much or that much, and you'll know. And, as was pointed out, there is no 13 default mechanism here. I think you'll know that the next time "Acme Widget" wants a zoning variance or something like that, I guess you'll take that into consideration.
-- to these folks if they don't comply. If they're not required to comply and they don't, then there's no hard 30 5/4/99 Comm. of Whole - Bill 990181 feelings if they don't. There shouldn't be.
I would -- yeah. I mean, I -- again, I -- I mean, our task will be the assemblage of the data and the providing of it. I won't have any hard feelings.
And I would hope that others would share that. I mean, I. . .
Okay. Could I make one -- Madam President, could I just make one comment. We did confirm that the Administration does support our testimony. That's the Administration issue. Okay.
Mr. Hankowsky, you just answered a part of my question.
Okay. My initial 31 5/4/99 Comm. of Whole - Bill 990181 question was going to be, how many TIFs were actually functioning? and you just answered that somewhat. But I guess I'm more concerned about the fact that it seems to me you've presented information to us that seems like it's really difficult to get this data, and I don't know why that would be. I mean, is anybody currently monitoring what goes on with these TIFs? I heard you mention OHCD a little earlier.
Yeah. Where there was an economic opportunity plan as part of the overall transaction, then those plans are being monitored. And I want to make sure I'm right, but I think I'm right. I think in every instance, they are being monitored by OHCD. 'Cause generally, there was either public -- there might have been other public dollars in the transaction, and they are doing that for all of us.
So then even if the TIF person itself -- OHCD should have the data 32 5/4/99 Comm. of Whole - Bill 990181 that answers a lot of these questions in this piece of legislation.
Okay. Because it doesn't -- I mean, I can remember who put my porch roof on years ago. And certainly, I'm not 9 building a big hotel. But to me, it just seems 10 ridiculous that people would not be able to access 11 this information or that it would be such a hard 12 chore to talk about who got contracts, who's 13 working, etc., etc. I don't think that's a big 14 demand. 15
No, I'm not saying it 16 is. I am simply saying that we will, in good 17 faith, ask and seek to get the information. 18 That's all I'm -- and we will attempt to do that 19 and I think they can do that. 20 I mean, you know, an instance could be a situation where there's a retail tenant in a building, and forget Loew's. I mean, they're kind of the real beneficiary. But, you know, I'll throw out a name. I hope it won't be inflammatory but, you know, we have a lease in place with Hard 33 5/4/99 Comm. of Whole - Bill 990181 Rock Cafe. I mean, we can ask them for it, but in that lease, we don't actually say, Give us this report every year. So you know, so there's levels down that you have to go down to get the information; it isn't just a single party who would have to do it. I'm sure they'll provide it. I'm just saying there's a little bit of work here, that's all.
I'm good. I didn't hear the entire discussion but maybe by way of wrap-up from what I've been able to glean from the discussion, you have no 23 objection to asking everybody who receives a TIF benefit, whether it is ongoing, proposed or completed, to report consistent with the 34 5/4/99 Comm. of Whole - Bill 990181 requirements of this bill.
Whether they do or not is something that we are free to have a judgment about. But you are certainly going to ask everyone who has ever accepted a TIF benefit to give you the report.
And whether it's onerous or not is not useful to us or to this record, because it certainly won't be more onerous than the benefit they received from the TIF. And this body is entitled to have an opinion about them and their reporting when next they come asking for their next benefit. That is why we make public records, so that we, or our successors, can see what the relationship between this body and business entities who come and ask for benefits. Now, whether there are hard feelings or not is way less than important to this record than whether there's a benefit received and whether this is an onerous requirement to offset that benefit. 35 5/4/99 Comm. of Whole - Bill 990181 So will you notify us that you have written to each and then notify us what their response is.
Yeah. Well, I am happy to do that. I presume that if this bill is enacted -- I'm trying to see when the first report would. . . We would do that by the end of this calendar year pursuant to this report. Excuse me, pursuant to this ordinance, we would do the report, right.
Pursuant to the ordinance, you would issue the report.
And would you do so as to every other TIF that has been granted?
If this is enacted, yeah, we will do this tells us to do, and we will do it in good faith and with the best efforts.
Fine. Now, as to proposed TIFs, we will make 36 5/4/99 Comm. of Whole - Bill 990181 it a condition of granting the TIF that the business entity accept the requirement and the responsibility to provide you with the data sufficient to make the report.
Oh, yeah. What this would do is -- to be candid, it would eliminate the need to, in the last two TIFs, to amend it each time to make it specific.
The day we now will meet with the client, we will say, By the way, you know, if we agree you should get a TIF and if Council then deems it appropriate that you should have one, you will be required to do these things.
So we will know going in that this is part of the process. Oh, absolutely.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter.
Thank you, Madam 37 5/4/99 Comm. of Whole - Bill 990181 President. Mr. Hankowsky, just two last questions. How many of the TIFs have HUD 108 5 loans as a part of their financing deal? 6
I'm told by Bob that 7 there are four definite and three possible. Three 8 because we haven't yet determined the final -- for 9 example, West Parkside Retail, we think we will 10 have one but -- 11
HUD 108 is a part 12 of the proposed financing mechanism, and until it 13 gets squared away, you're not absolutely sure. 14
Okay. And aren't there certain reporting requirements automatically by HUD --
And isn't some of 38 5/4/99 Comm. of Whole - Bill 990181 the same information the same information that we're talking about here today?
Yes. And in those instances, there is no, quote, problem getting it.
The only caveat to that is, the HUD 108, I think, has a five-year reporting window. But it's just the same thing, the data would be the same.
Okay. And lastly, as we've read on many occasions in the five-year plan in the economic development section, prior to any of this kind of reporting requirements in any of the various deals that the City has done -- not TIF deals -- some without HUD 108 loans, we have had incredible success apparently at at least calculating the number of jobs that are either created or retained which are the centerpiece of the section on economic development in the five-year plan. And somehow we were able to pull all of that documentation together with no 23 requirement of anyone to report anything. Isn't that right?
It's not as easy a 39 5/4/99 Comm. of Whole - Bill 990181 question as it might seem. There are reporting requirements for a number of the economic development funding programs prior to any of this discussion.
So where community development block grant money is lent, UDAGs, Pennsylvania Industrial Development Authority, various -- there's a whole bump of them that have requirements.
So when -- and I don't know the exact phraseology in the economic stimulus chapter, but I think it's something like, you know, "impacted" or some such phraseology because it both includes those, I'll use the term "hard numbers" that we can verify and numbers that we think --
Think are going to get created but aren't necessarily as hard. 40 5/4/99 Comm. of Whole - Bill 990181
I understand. Okay, thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Are there any other questions from members of the committee? (No further questions at this time.)
Is there anyone else to testify on this bill? (No response.)
Thank you. And I also want to thank you for taking us first. I deeply appreciate it.
You're welcome. The next resolution to be called Resolution No. 990261.
A resolution appointing Charles M. Warfield, Jr. to the Board of Directors of the City Avenue Special Services District of Philadelphia and Lower Merion.
Good morning. 41 5/4/99 Comm. of Whole - Res. 990261
Good morning. My name is David L. Cohen, and I'm the Executive Director -- (Laughter.)
I'm the Executive Director of the City Avenue Special Services District. And I'm obviously a different David L. Cohen and I'm also not related to the Councilman.