And the Ad Shell Company. I believe the President of the Ad Shell Company is here.
PNI is here also, right? I'm not going to let them forget you. (Laughter.)
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have several questions. First, can you tell me what the range of the cost is, your best guesstimate, in terms of the various newsstands -- the fiberglass, the aluminum?
Yeah, I think we had a similar question at the last hearing and --
Councilman, we actually have the gentleman that's been doing the construction -- did the construction of the prototypes. He's here and he can give you probably a more accurate -- (Witness comes forward.) 58 4/26/00 STREETS & SERVICES - BILL 000166
Good afternoon and please identify yourself for the record.
Good afternoon. I'm Barry Hossack, from Capital Manufacturing.
Would you spell your last name for the stenographer, please.
Not just the prototype, but there are obviously several types that would qualify under this bill -- well, actually, under our earlier bill -- the aluminum, the --
Well, I can only speak for a stand that will be similar to the prototype that was built. Going forward, it would be approximately $20,000, a little under $20,000, and that's inclusive of manufacturing and installation and removal of the existing --
I'm just trying to get a sense of what the range would be as it 59 4/26/00 STREETS & SERVICES - BILL 000166 relates to -- I would assume that this is the Cadillac of newsstands, or should I say "the Lexus of newsstands?" I'm sorry.
I think if I can help along those lines 'cause I think I know where you're going with that, Councilman. If we're going to conform to the new regulations, the fireproof and the adequate size and the heating and air-conditioning installed inside, even if it's not as a magnificent design that Mr. Claflen has done, if it's close, it's going to be in that range. It can't be off more than $1,000. And I must say -- and I have to add this, of course 'cause I know that you're familiar with this as a Councilman -- is that the addition of electric and so forth sometimes can run the cost up another 3 to $5,000, for the digging of the streets, the bonds and so forth and so on. So the entire package will run even -- if you take a little off of the magnificent, it's only going to be 1,000 or so dollars 'cause it's the material and the construction and the size that dictates the price. So there's not going to 60 4/26/00 STREETS & SERVICES - BILL 000166 be a way to do it, with all of these things, at much less.
So realistically, in order for newsstand operators citywide to be in compliance, we're talking about a minimum of, says, $15,000 to have a stand anywhere in the City, regardless as to whether or not it's the prototype.
Well, I would think that's right. I would think also, of course, that there are ways to be in compliance without doing this, and I think I've said before that probably some of the existing stands in some places are probably in compliance in terms of material and size. They wouldn't have the amenities that they have, these amenities that we're talking about you're allowing, hopefully, with the passage of this bill, and those amenities would not be in the other stands. But it wouldn't bar somebody from qualifying. It's not going to put someone out of business if they don't get the prototype. And I think what we said before obviously was that the prototype will be manufactured in mass and in 61 4/26/00 STREETS & SERVICES - BILL 000166 scale when we get the other programs as part of the financing worked out, and everybody can have one.
All right, let me tell what you my concern is, realistically. 42nd and Parrish, all right, the guy wants to do a newsstand. I don't think -- and I don't think you all think -- that the advertisement revenue associated with that location would be anywhere equivalent to 12th and Market. And I'm concerned as to the wherewithal of that individual with that newsstand being able to work within the parameters of this program that the Newsstand Association has put together and to be able to get enough revenue to build a $15,000 newsstand. Or would the participants of the program, as it relates to the advertising, be willing to front the cost of that particular newsstand?
Well, I would share your concern, except that I that this organization, and I also know the commitment of the people from Ad Shell, so let me tell it in two steps. First of all, it's a very democratic organization, and these are the last of the 62 4/26/00 STREETS & SERVICES - BILL 000166 independent people, but they had agreed that revenue would be shared equally and the benefits would be shared equally. So assuming -- and here comes the commercial. Assuming that the advertising raises enough revenue -- and that will depend on the kind of advertising that you permit. Assuming that that happens, we have been assured -- I'm going to make sure we've been assured by Ad Shell that the man at 42nd and Parrish will be treated equally with the fellow at 12th and Market. And I think that's important. Now that will be dependent on the revenue, whether we even get one stand paid for. It will depend on what the revenue stream will be. But the good places will help the places that are not quite so desirable. Is that right?
Mr. Beller, let me interrupt for a minute. Who will be controlling the revenue; is it the Association?
Well, yes. What's going to happen is this -- and we're working out the details now, but that's pending what Council does. What's going to happen is that advertising 63 4/26/00 STREETS & SERVICES - BILL 000166 and the generation of the fees will go from Ad Shell, and a percentage of that fee will do two things. It will come to the newsstand operators to be distributed among the members, but initially, the cost of the construction and installation at all places for our members -- and membership is 150 a year, by the way, so we don't have to worry about wherever that fellow is. All of our members will, in fact, get a newsstand, which will be constructed at no cost, and at the end of a certain period of time, after the years of advertising have gone on, will get the stand fully in his or her name for $1. I mean, we're just going to use nominal considerations. Have I stated it correctly, John?
And how will the placement of those newsstands be distributed? 'Cause I'm assuming we're going to have to do this in phases, 'cause we're not going to raise all the revenue immediately. How will that work? Is there a particular section of the City where the first phase will be placed? 'Cause I'm assuming 64 4/26/00 STREETS & SERVICES - BILL 000166 your members are all over the City.
The predominant membership is, in fact, what we would call "Center City," both your district and Councilman DiCicco's district.
These are, of course, the more visible districts, they're more desirable from advertising. But more importantly to you and I perhaps, they're more desirable from the way the City presents its face, and we would --
Well, not necessarily. People want to see nice-looking newsstands all over the place.
Oh, no, we will, but we think that the initial construction would go to Center City so that visitors would see that, and we would branch out as we went. And the speed with which that could be done depends both on manufacturing and revenue stream, but once the revenue stream has been projected, the commitment is that everybody will get one. Now, I have the President of Ad Shell with us, and I'd like to introduce them. 65 4/26/00 STREETS & SERVICES - BILL 000166
Yeah, I need to get a little more clarity on this revenue. I mean, assuming that you're going to enter into a contract with this advertisement agency, there will be a level of revenue raised as associated with the number of locations, and now you're saying that --
-- the first phase of that money is going to go only into Center City.
The first phase is production -- not of the contract. Once we've entered- - once we have the requisite legislation, and I don't want to keep hammering on that, but once we have the requisite legislation that they need to advertise to raise revenue, everybody will be on the list. The construction will be done in phases because you can only produce a certain amount a week, but it's not being done -- no delay will be 66 4/26/00 STREETS & SERVICES - BILL 000166 there. And Ad Shell has agreed to pay, assuming that they're on board with the advertising, they will pay for 100 percent of the stands.
But my question is that list, that list that you speak of, how is that list constructed? That's my, you know -- is it based on what? Is it based on the amount of revenue that will come from --
-- this particular -- the divisibility of these particular newsstands? I mean, are there any guidelines associated with who gets the newsstands first, second, third, fourth?
Well, the Newsstand Operators Association is going into this contract, so all of our members, and they're all over, and there's no limit on who can join. So I don't happen to know if there is one at 42nd and Parrish, but if there is and he wants to join, or he may already be a member, he's on the list. All he has to do is say he wants one.
There will probably 67 4/26/00 STREETS & SERVICES - BILL 000166 be one tomorrow.
And he's absolutely welcome. It's anticipated that no one will be excluded from the right to have this and no one will be treated differently. It just happens to be -- you pointed out it's a plain fact, that some places mean more than others in terms of the advertising. But the money stream will come in equally, that's what we think is important. All of our members will share equally in the revenue, and all of our members will share equally in the right to have a free stand, irrespective of where his location is. All we said is that the first few stands will be coming into Center City because that's where it's more visible, and we want to show quickly.
Is there any written regulations among the membership associated with the selection process of these newsstands?
As to who gets 68 4/26/00 STREETS & SERVICES - BILL 000166 what first?
I don't think they're -- let me just explain to you, 'cause Councilman Nutter, then Councilman Ortiz have questions. When we first began to talk about these newsstands, it was -- and I think I had mentioned this at the last hearing. It was as a result of the Department of L&I having regulations that now require newsstands to be constructed of a certain type of material. The Association came to me and said L&I has given us a certain amount of time to comply, we feel. And we -- "we" meaning the Association -- really didn't do what we were supposed to do. We understand that now we have to comply, because L&I began issuing citations. It started in Center City, actually. I think the first citations were issued in Center City -- they weren't even out in the neighborhoods yet. As a result of that, I went to the Commissioner of L&I, Commissioner MacLaughlin, and asked him if he would give us another three months or so to see if the Association really did mean 69 4/26/00 STREETS & SERVICES - BILL 000166 what they said when they said they were going to come back with something that we could all be proud of and would work for everybody and meet all the standards of L&I requirements, and we'd work with the Association. One of the first questions I asked was the same thing. I, obviously, would love to see them in Center City, but there are places in my district that I can't wait for one of these stands to be placed in because I want to get rid of the outhouse that is out there now. I mean, they're horrible conditions. So as far as I'm concerned, it was the intention when we began this to hope -- our hope is that everybody, every newsstand that is out there today will take advantage of this, I think, great opportunity to get a new newsstand, because most of them are probably not in compliance today as it relates to material. There's probably a handful of them out there. So they're going to have to do something anyway, and it's going to cost them a certain amount of dollars, even if they do -- I won't even say a Ford. I don't know, what's an 70 4/26/00 STREETS & SERVICES - BILL 000166 inexpensive car today? But if they do the least expensive, as you pointed out, you asked the question, I don't know if it's going to be 15,000. It may be, but it's going to be some significant cost to them. And it sounds like your question is Well, will the guy at 42nd and Parrish be put at the bottom of the list because maybe that is not as an attractive location as 12th and Market? I think the initial input -- the first group that will be done will be done in Center City, and I think we all understand that. And then as quickly as they're produced, they will be placed in other locations, not necessarily based on what is the more select corner or intersection. 'Cause, I mean, I have an intersection in South Philadelphia. Where I live, there's a couple of them down there, but one in particular, which may not be the most ideal location in terms of advertising, but it's so -- the aesthetics of the box that is out there now just really takes away from the surrounding buildings and the community at large that I really want that to happen there as quickly as Center City. 71 4/26/00 STREETS & SERVICES - BILL 000166
All right. I just want to be clear 'cause my concern, for the record, is that when Center City gets done, all of a sudden, they'll realize that, okay, we're not raising enough revenue associated with this advertisement in Center City, then nobody else gets an opportunity to have these new newsstands.
Councilman, there's no -- you can -- we can allay your fears by telling you that we would like to see this in every newsstand in the City if they want to avail it, and no one will be turned down, and no one will --
We can always come back and amend the bill to eliminate illuminated advertising if we had to, right?
Unfortunately, yes, you could. Now, there's no question that it's to our advantage -- I mean, I want you to understand that one of the things that happens is when enforcement goes out, as they did, the worse 72 4/26/00 STREETS & SERVICES - BILL 000166 newsstands get hit the first day, and the other ones who may have a marginal violation will get hit the second day, and then everybody focuses. With the new newsstands, they'll leave us alone and we'll sell papers and we'll be happy and that's it. But nobody's going to be excluded.
A lot of the worst newsstands happen to be out at the 42nd and Parrishes. And, you know, I would feel more comfortable if you had something, some regulation or something or some guideline associated with the placement of these newsstands. It's not that I don't trust you but, you know, in my limited time here --
Councilman, we'll get you an application for him to drop off at 42nd and Parrish that he will be accepted, there's no 19 question, there's discrimination here from location or any other way, and we'll take his membership, we'll take his $150 fee, and he'll be on the list.
I'm asking you, if you can, if it's not a hardship, to put something in writing indicating that the position of the 73 4/26/00 STREETS & SERVICES - BILL 000166 Newsstand Association as it relates to the placement or some set of guidelines or something. I mean, if that's not --
No problem. We've said it under oath, we'll say it again, there's no 7 problem.
We were pretty informal, so we've never done it. What we do is go to a meeting and say, Who wants on the list? But --
But now the flip side of that is that some of the people who are selling say, "I don't want to belong to an association" so they got to get over that too, they got to get past that. I mean, that's the flip side where there were some problems in the past and, hopefully, they won't be there in the future.
Hi, my name's Earl Rogers, 74 4/26/00 STREETS & SERVICES - BILL 000166 and I am a part of the Association, and our location is on 56th and Market. And we're trying to have one of these newsstands on 56th and Market. So to answer that question to what that gentleman is saying about 52nd and Parrish, I think 56th and Market would be an absolute location in terms of that diversity is what he's talking about.
And I believe it's an el stop, so that might have something to do with that. So its not quite 42nd and Parrish.
And I agree, I agree. Councilmember Nutter? Thank you, sir. Councilman Nutter?
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wanted for a moment -- because I thought I understood this, but maybe now I don't. 75 4/26/00 STREETS & SERVICES - BILL 000166 What was the genesis of all this? Why are you trying to change out the newsstands? And I'm not debating whether they're in bad shape or good shape or anything like that. Where did this come from?
Well, that's exactly how it started, however, Councilman. I think, as Councilman DiCicco just said, what happened is that the members of the Newsstand Association all were faced with a regulation which declared that the wooden stands were no longer proper and the size was in question. And the regulations were such that people were getting violations one after the other. And it was our thought, those of us with the Newsstand Association, that it was time to do a look-see at what we could do. And it went from looking at what the material should be and how much of a lead time we could possibly get from the City, because these stands are expensive, and for somebody to switch in a matter of weeks or months was -- especially at 42nd and Parrish -- was virtually impossible. And from that, we just came up with -- 76 4/26/00 STREETS & SERVICES - BILL 000166
And then each stand, for both rain and not rain, they had -- each one was designed differently. Some people, when they opened their doors and put magazines up and down the side were in compliance with the requirements, and some weren't, because there were as many different designs as there were stands just about, and it was a hodgepodge, and we thought that this was a good time to get a liveable stand. For instance, when stands want electrification, they come to this Council, to each of you District Councilmen and women 77 4/26/00 STREETS & SERVICES - BILL 000166 individually, and they have to ask for electricity. Well, I can assure you, having talked to our members now -- we have a number of them here today who will tell you that it can get awful cold or awful hot in one of those stands, if that's where you're making your. So we wanted to living codify everything. We also didn't want to have newsstands which would automatically not comply by putting --
But you haven't changed anything about the process to get electricity by this bill, have you?
No and we can't, because that's by City Charter, and we certainly are not suggesting that you can sidestep that, but what we're saying is, we are building the stand so that the air-conditioning and the heating elements can be inside as opposed to -- as well as the security, that we had to beef up the security, we had a number of break-ins. And that was the genesis of it.
Right. Well, you're building the stands such that they virtually require electricity. 78 4/26/00 STREETS & SERVICES - BILL 000166
Why would somebody spend $20,000 on a stand that has built-in air-conditioning, possibly heating and, you know, maybe soon to be plumbing. Why would somebody buy a $20,000 if it didn't have electricity?
Well, there are two answers to it. In the first place, what I'll call is -- when I bought a TV some years ago, they said it was cable-ready, it wasn't cable.
These things are electricity-ready. And if Councilman Clarke in his district decides that the man should have it, he'll have it. If Councilman DiCicco decides, he'll have it. If you decide for it or against it, they'll have it or they won't have it. But once you say they can have it, we've got a place to slide it in, we've got a burglar alarm system to be able to be put in, and it will be -- it's cable-ready, it's electricity- ready. And I think it's the humane thing to do to give somebody heat, light, and air-conditioning. 79 4/26/00 STREETS & SERVICES - BILL 000166
'Cause if you go to the Zoning Board, they won't even let you have a rooming house without air-conditioning.
Well, I understand that. I mean, I want people to be, you know, cool and warm and all that, but when you bought your cable-ready TV, you didn't come in here and ask me for anything in order to be hooked up to the cable television system.
You some very long and very hard discussions about bringing cable into the City, but it was somebody else's fight; this is our fight.
I mean, it only took 17 years. I mean, you know. That's like a week in government.
I understand, all right. 80 4/26/00 STREETS & SERVICES - BILL 000166 So L&I was all over you and you had to figure out a way to deal with this, and you figured, Let's be in compliance by way of the materials. This thing is relatively expensive, how are you going to finance it? And the next step is, We'll do advertising and maybe even go a further step and do back-lit advertising. Or do all of those kind of coming together at the same time?
No. They, in fact, did grow as we realized the increasing cost of the project. We started out hoping that they could be built for less. At one time, we entertained our members paying at least half or more to pay for the stands, and the other half was going to be lent, contributed granted, we weren't sure how. USA Today stepped up, New York Times stepped up, I had some discussions with the folks from PNI, telling them there was room at the table, but that would have meant that every individual newsstand operator -- and somebody has said, How about the guy that only sells 50 papers? Well, he couldn't afford even to put up 5 or 7,000. So it was decided that this would be a good way to pay for 81 4/26/00 STREETS & SERVICES - BILL 000166 it. And that was the way it grew. It just -- as the costs grew and as the concept of trying to have everybody have it grow, we had to look for a revenue stream, and the revenue stream, we had hoped, would come from advertising.
How many newsstands are there in the City of Philadelphia?
Yeah. It's hard to know because not everybody is a member of the organization, number one. And, number two, there's some folks that do it on weekends only, people do it Sunday papers only. And so it's hard to know.
All right, okay. And how many are in Center City? Which is generally defined as river to river, Pine to Lombard.
And of the 150 to 175 newsstands citywide, how many are members of 82 4/26/00 STREETS & SERVICES - BILL 000166 the Association?
Okay. I'm going to need to you talk into the microphone.
It's 70 fully paid members at the moment, and we think it will be 75 within the next few days, week, or so.
And of the 70 or 75, how many have newsstands in Center City?
Okay. So there are 50 to 55 newsstands in Center City and about 40 of them are members of the Association?
And I think it was talked about or testified to earlier -- I mean, there's somewhat of an automatic economic assumption that advertising rates, if not attractiveness, would generally be higher in Center City than in most other places except for possibly along major SEPTA routes, the el, the 83 4/26/00 STREETS & SERVICES - BILL 000166 Broadway subway, and maybe some of the commuter rail lines; is that --
I'm going to leave that answer to the expert. Would you identify yourself for the record, please.
Okay. My name is Douglas Watts, I'm with Ad Shell Street Furniture Advertising Specialty Company, out of New York.
In answer to your question, Councilman, there are actually several ways to sell it. Our preferred way to sell the advertising is to sell it on what's called a "network basis," which means the broadest distribution, which means that no individual location has a higher rate or a lesser rate than the other rates. We try to sell it in a package format. That way, it allows for greater income and revenue, and also --
A package format would mean you would sell 8, 10, 15 signs in a broad 84 4/26/00 STREETS & SERVICES - BILL 000166 distribution within the marketplace, in a package, so that the circulation of people in the environment will get more impressions of the advertising. So you would not want to concentrate all of your advertising in any one locale, regardless of the geography in the city.
But if you're selling them in 8, 10, dozen packages, would you rather have 8 packages at 56th and Master, or would you rather have 8 packages at 15th and Market?
I'd rather have neither; I'd rather have a distribution in all quadrants of the City because it gives me the broadest distribution, it allows me to go to an advertiser and say, "I'm going to give you a broad, diverse circulation of eyes on your advertisement throughout the marketplace." It's why Philadelphia --
What's a newsstand in Center City generate volume-wise versus either Councilman Clarke's newsstand at 42nd and wherever or --
Well, I haven't measured 85 4/26/00 STREETS & SERVICES - BILL 000166 it, but at certain hours of the day, obviously, it gets a great deal of the circulation because of the foot and automobile traffic. But, obviously, on the weekend and the evenings, it gets nil, and that's where neighborhood circulation and other boulevard circulation throughout the City enhances the entire package.
How long does it take to make one of these newsstands?
I suspect after they have the tooling and such together, it's a couple weeks, but you don't work on them one at a time; you usually build six or eight at a time and add accoutrements to it and build those up, and then start another six or eight.
So in order to make an order for six to eight, I mean, I'm assuming that you have to at least give the manufacturer some kind of deposit for those six to eight --
Or you have to pay 86 4/26/00 STREETS & SERVICES - BILL 000166 for the whole thing at one time or --
That's correct. Generally, we offer a percent deposit and that gets 5 applied to the final cost. 6
Mm-hmm. And your 7 decision to order or not order is based on what? 8
Well, as an advertising- 9 oriented company, our decision to participate is 10 contingent on certain advertising parameters that 11 have been mentioned here. 12 And I must say, if you'll allow me just 13 one moment of background to establish my bona 14 fides here, my company is the largest such company 15 in the world. We have 3,000 street furniture 16 contracts in the world in 33 countries, and we 17 operate about 150,000 street furniture units that 18 range from automatic public toilets to bus 19 shelters to newsstands. So we have a great deal 20 of experience in the field and we've been doing 21 this for about 30 years. 22
And do you have 23 advertisements on the public toilets? 24
In some places we do and in 25 some places we do not. Generally speaking, they 87 4/26/00 STREETS & SERVICES - BILL 000166 are supported by a larger program, which is generally a bus shelter program.
But my point of that is to say that it is not just an advertising model that would finance your program. I would like it to be, I know that's the most successful program, the one that will keep you with high-quality newsstands in good condition throughout the term that you would like them to be on the streets. But they could also be financed by sponsorship with the news media and the magazines and the newspapers. And if that were the case and the Newsstand Association could raise that money, I would encourage them to do that if you did not want the additional advertising on the streets. And you could also have it financed by either the City or the newsstand operators themselves. But, actually, I would go a little higher in the cost estimate. I think you're looking at $25,000 per unit. And our approach would be to supply as many of the units that we can, up to the 150, 175 number, because we want the broadest distribution throughout the 88 4/26/00 STREETS & SERVICES - BILL 000166 marketplace. If John came to me with a proposition of give me for Center City or just for the 5th 5 Councilmatic District, I probably would reject 6 that out of hand, just like I would reject out of 7 hand a program that wasn't supported by 8 advertising. I want the broadest circulation. 9 We will establish a newsstand that fits 10 all of the specifications and codes established by 11 the City, and that newsstand will be available to 12 every member of his association with whom I have a 13 contract. I have a contract -- would have a 14 contract with his association. And there will be 15 no discrimination for geography, because, in fact, 16 we want the broadest distribution within the 17 City. 18 And so that's how we would operate the 19 program. The same, let's call it, $25,000 20 newsstand, not a $15,000 version for some and a $28,000 version for others, but the same $25,000 newsstand distributed throughout the City, with advertising to support not only the design and manufacture, but the installation and the ongoing maintenance and the additional parts, perhaps 89 4/26/00 STREETS & SERVICES - BILL 000166 relocation at some point in time over the years. This is how we operate in our contracts throughout the world, and this is what would we would like to do with the City of Philadelphia. Personally, I was involved the RFP that the City issued five years ago. I was working with Ganett (ph) Outdoor at the time, and that was a merging of newsstands and automatic public toilets, a way of financing the automatic public toilets. Unfortunately, that award was made to my company, with me as the project director, the day that our company was sold in a merger and acquisition, and it really extinguished the program. And I know John has been -- I've been familiar John's efforts since that time, and I know the City of Philadelphia has been trying to resolve this issue, as have some other urban centers in the country. And the best way to do it is to put together a viable partnership, private-public partnership. If the City want to charge 20 percent because that's what you charge the bus shelters for that concession, we're willing to pay that. 90 4/26/00 STREETS & SERVICES - BILL 000166 But there does have to be sufficient advertising to support it. And what I've heard so far, a limitation on commercial applications and a limitation on some of the format sizes really does not allow for the kind of return on investment that's necessary to support a multi-million dollar program, but we are talking about a capital program and an ongoing maintenance program that will not tax taxpayers one penny, cost the City one penny, and would not in fact cost a newsstand operator a single penny as well.
It's one of the better public-private partnership programs available in the world, and it's how bus shelters and a lot of these public amenities are happening in cities that just don't have the money for the infrastructure anymore.
Between the two hearings that have been held on this, I now have written down three different cost figures for this. The last hearing, I heard it was $20,000; today I thought there was some discussion about 91 4/26/00 STREETS & SERVICES - BILL 000166 $15,000; and most recently, you said it was $25,000.
There's a little bit of a range here. What will this cost?
My estimation -- and since I'm the one that would be writing the check, I have to figure out a proforma that seems to make sense. And my estimation is about $25,000 on average, installed. Some will be more because of the electrification and the telephone line, some will be a little less. But on average, about $25,000, installed.
Okay. Let's go back to the issue that was raised by Councilman Clarke. Notwithstanding your interest in -- what's your term, "dispersement"?
Dispersement. So there's 50 to 55 newsstands in Center City. Mr. Beller, I think, said that those command the greatest presence, have a sense of the face of the City on them, 40 of those 50 to 55 are members of 92 4/26/00 STREETS & SERVICES - BILL 000166 the Association. So, I mean, we start with the premise, at least today, that all of those folks have an automatic leg up on getting one of the newsstands as compared to the other to who are not 7 members; is that correct? 8
That's not my call but 9 that's my understanding as well, yes. 10
Okay. Well, what 11 happens -- I mean, if this started out as a L&I, 12 we want you to get your newsstand looking decent 13 program, the end result appears to be now that 14 some people will be able to get their newsstand in 15 order, and others, if they don't either have the brilliance or the temerity to join the Association, are either left in the lurch or -- I mean, can they cut a deal with you on their own?
I wouldn't do that, no. My deal would be directly with the Newsstand Association.
In terms of the 93 4/26/00 STREETS & SERVICES - BILL 000166 government side of this, I mean, we don't necessarily get compliance out of this or we don't get people in a better situation unless they do something with you. And I thought our interest in all of this was for the greater good of the City and making sure that people have a newsstand that's in compliance with the regulations that we promulgate.
Councilman, I've said it before and, again, I'm not selling memberships, and I don't want to be disingenuous. I'm saying that at $150 a year, there is nobody in that number of 150 to 175 that will be excluded. And, yes, that makes it something free for everybody, so there's nobody. Second of all, there are people who have signed up who are not in Center City, who will be on the list ahead of some of those who are in Center City. One of the things we're trying to attack is the ones that are out of compliance now, and they may have a leg up, even though they're not in Center City. And the other thing is, and this is important -- 94 4/26/00 STREETS & SERVICES - BILL 000166
But I'd like to go back to the Councilman's question. How are you going to decide who gets what? I mean --
I mean, somebody's got to be first, somebody's got to be second, and someone has to be last. And then you have a whole host of other people who are not members of the Association. And whether they join or don't join, whether they want to put $150 down or don't want to put $150, it seems to me that Commissioner McLaughlin and Otis and all the other folks have a responsibility to ensure compliance. Now, the fact that somebody has to now get into some other arrangement, which we have no 17 involvement in, jurisdiction, responsibility or anything, gets into -- you know, I mean, it's --
It's difficult for me to deal with something that is way off somewhere.
I think, if I may respectfully respect to you, that building this or 95 4/26/00 STREETS & SERVICES - BILL 000166 buying this or getting this is not the only way to comply. There are newsstands in the City that comply today and will comply tomorrow and will comply for as long as they stay there. They are within the parameters of four by whatever you passed. You don't have to be 4-by-10. If you're 4-by-8, you qualify.
So I think that Otis will tell you and I think the Commissioner will tell you that this is not a situation where only our members are going to be in compliance. Our members will be taking advantage of the expanded, better, more liveable type of operation that, hopefully, you will permit. Nobody's being left in the lurch. I'm using your word now. Nobody's being left in the lurch. And in terms of where and --
No. I'm saying to you that if you have a metal newsstand right now, Councilman, that's 4-by-8-by-8, and you're on the 96 4/26/00 STREETS & SERVICES - BILL 000166 corner of 15th and Market or 56th and Market or Ivy Ridge, I don't care where you are, you are in compliance today and you will be in compliance tomorrow.
Nobody's going to make you move to this new stand, nobody. The City isn't saying that this is mandatory; the City is saying, hopefully, that this is allowable. So you can go from your 4-by-8-by-8-by-8 to a 4-by-something else. You can have an interior gate for security. And, yes, you can have panels for advertising -- horizontal 2 by 7 and two smaller ones. And that's what it's saying.
Right. We're creating a two-tiered system of operation.
If you're with this group, you can do this and you can advertise and you can have all the amenities that go with this particular box and have it paid for by someone else. 97 4/26/00 STREETS & SERVICES - BILL 000166
And operate outside. Well, no, but -- I understand that. That is the person's choice. But you're asking us now to step in the middle of that and have a role in creating it, right?
If you didn't want us in the middle of it, you wouldn't be sitting at the table right now.
The president of the United States wanted to know what the word "is" meant, and I don't want to quibble about what words mean. I'm asking you, as we've asked all the other Councilmen and we've asked Streets and we've asked L&I and the Art Commission and City Planning and anybody else we could talk to. Let us design one that is slightly larger than your present legislation. I mean, Councilman, this body, from time immemorial, has changed and amended 98 4/26/00 STREETS & SERVICES - BILL 000166 ordinances time after time to take into account what is real and what is new and what is possible. All we're saying is, let us build a bigger, better, prettier, more responsive, civically more responsive than what you have now. And in exchange for that -- although we're not asking you to bless us, in exchange for that, we're making it easier for anybody to come into it. You can have a five-tier step if that's what you want, but there's nobody in the world that will be excluded from the one-tier. That's all. It's a question of, do you want to step up? And if you want to step up, we're there to help you. And we did it starting -- and the reason -- and we have spent not City money but --
Well, maybe the City should be having this discussion with the gentleman?
Well, I'm not sure what that means. You have to pass the legislation for 99 4/26/00 STREETS & SERVICES - BILL 000166 anybody to do it, and I don't see anywhere here where this --
Maybe we should create the same concession on the newsstands that we have with the transit shelters. You don't have to belong to an association.
But the City, as I understand it, Mr. Councilman, owns part of the bus shelter. These people are independents and they own their own newsstands. This is their own business. The bus shelters are partly owned, as I understand it, by the City. If the City wants to put out $10,000 for every newsstand and go in partnership, I don't know how the membership would react.
I don't believe we put out money for the bus shelters.
Yeah, and you're on the ground, too. 100 4/26/00 STREETS & SERVICES - BILL 000166
So what is your anticipation of the schedule of dispersement or distribution of the new newsstands? Let's say everybody jumps into the pool.