things i just got done testifying that there might be problems with these things i looked at
what what does the community do when those things are not being when there's a problem with those
things and that's where i got to the uh uh the section of the document where it talks about how
do you uh arbitration and things like that so that right well the zero tolerance policy let's
look at that directly um does the zero talents policy refer at all to behavior of the of the
residents of negative behavior towards the neighbors no but it but it talks about trying
to i think what you're you were trying to talk about here is that uh if residents do something
and are you going to do something about it?
You know, that's the...
Well, the zero tolerance policy here
just refers to zero tolerance for drug use
and alcohol use among the residents.
I think he's trying to lead him.
He asked, he answered the question,
even raised in his statement, I quote,
he says that zero tolerance policy is a good thing.
So now I sense that Steve...
We don't, we don't,
we're not seeing the zero tolerance policy
is not a good thing.
So Steve, Steve, listen.
Listen, try not to lead him. Let him testify to his own knowledge and what he's concerned with.
Is there anything in this community benefits agreement that would allow for a speedy resolution of issues that typically might come up between residents of a treatment facility and the surrounding neighbors?
Again, that's speculating, you know, no, I'm asking for provisions in the in the community benefits agreement that deal with speedy resolution of problems.
So I thought that he testified before he was more concerned about, in my mind, how do you execute?
He testified before he was more concerned about, in my mind, how do you execute this? Are there problems on how to execute this community benefits agreement? And I think he's shaking his head. And I would leave it at that. Look, here's the benefits agreement. Here's the issues I think will be hard to execute. And I think that's where he was trying to say.
Okay, I do want to just clarify, if I can, Mr. Chair, that is one of your concerns, Mr. Harrell, around the speediness of the resolution of these problems?
Yes, and also how they would know, for example, the zero tolerance.
How would they know that that zero tolerance policy was not being enforced?
You know, so my assumption would be that there would be an incident.
And if there's an incident, how do you deal with that quickly and effectively?
Is that a better way to...
Well, yeah, because the cure period, if we look here,
if there's an allegation of a breach of the agreement by the developer,
there is a cure period of 60 days to cure it,
and then they can extend it for another 60 days
with written notice to the association saying why they want to extend it.
So we're talking 120 days to address something, which, I mean, Mr. Harrell, in the facilities that you have that are close to families and other houses, is it unusual or somewhat, it just happens some of the time that there are encounters between residents and community members where people get some kind of feelings of upset or concern?
usually uh people uh hear rumors about things so you have to have a rumor control so you have to
have immediate response uh to to those kinds of things and in other times they may think that
something that happened in the neighborhood was done by one of your clients when it was somebody's
son down the street so you have to deal with them right away and if you let them go
from some period of time uh and you get into a legalistic if you don't try to resolve those
problems uh you end up uh with with the dissatisfied people in the neighborhood which
is an impact on the program you have to have a good relationship with that community regardless
you know regardless and what we usually do is we bring people in that have had where we have
locations and have them speak to the community and resolve and talk about how do we resolve
how to how have these issues been resolved with us and then that becomes the degree that we agree
to do that i give community members my the leader of that organization my my business my personal
they didn't have to go through 12 levels of people to get to me i mean if they had to but
But the process is not legalistic.
Mr. Masters, I don't want to brush your case here, but how much longer do you think you need for this witness?
I think that was the end of my direct examination.
So we are doing good timing.
Thank you.
Darwin Cross.
Mr. Carl.
How many community benefits agreements that you personally executed?
i don't know i don't have i don't have a number you know is it more than five i'm objecting that
there's no relevance here um oh he spoke about and you insisted that he
steve i think he can ask that question and i think i think mr hall has answered by saying
he didn't know yeah so usually uh in in in that regard there is it gets built right into the
zoning to be honest with you there the agreements were made at zoning hearings where we said this
is what we'll do and that's and so you go back to the zoning board and say these guys have violated
the zone i mean that's a better way to uh okay and and i appreciate that so you've seen zoning
granted with some sort of proviso that says that the community has a quicker turnaround time
well beyond dealing with issues well not just that but also i think there's uh some uh you know
sex offenders will they be allowed in the program what will what will you do with drug use some of
the things but but but let's just stick because i think opposing counsel was talking about the
provisions for enforcement so you and i heard you say that zoning that the zoning board would take
care of it. So I'm asking you, have you seen that zoning approvals will say, oh,
that zoning approvals will say oh enforcement has to be done this way yes okay i i'm objecting
enforcement has to be done?
because we're talking about many different zoning hearing boards under the the and and that's fine
he's trying to answer my question okay
mike yeah can you restate the question so i can yeah i heard you say that when i asked
how you said that zoning boards will take
care of those provisions that you spoke about
with our CBA. No, usually, usually these things
are discussed. And then I asked
is it that the zoning board will put this information
and make it part of their zoning approval? Have you seen that?
No. Sometimes yes, sometimes not.
Okay. So even though that's the zoning approvals, it's purely a land use issue. You're saying that they'll put in stuff about enforcement for CBA.
right so that's right and so i think your your council was ready to object because
a it it most likely applied to outside the city of philadelphia
um no i don't know about that i mean it was in the city i'd have to go yeah the city of
philadelphia is not always operated the zoning board you have today you know keep so uh okay
oh i don't know i'd have to go research that day okay all right well let me just tell you that
something like that that's made part of a zoning approval would not be enforceable so let me ask
you this you've been i'm objecting to you to you on putting legal statements on the record i i i'm
still on cross. From 1988 to 2020, you were president, president, executive director of
Condensia, correct? Yes. All right. How many facilities did you open in, 3.1 facilities did
you open in Delaware? None. None. How many facilities did you open in Delaware? Four.
four how many of them are open now two how many did you closed under your presidency
one two programs in the same building one building okay what that building no if the
plans to close it were there when i left but it didn't close till afterwards the new okay
closed so i did not close them okay i've not actually i've only closed uh
two or three programs in my whole history so okay so the programs that that the programs that did
close and eventually closed um and they weren't 3.1 what was their what happened to the real estate
i'm object and what what's the possible relevance to to this to to this application this is a land
use issue so i'm just curious as to why his programming it it's all linked together if you
can link our programming to our use of group living for a facility that has been group living
since 1950 i think i can have the right to ask him what happened to the property for a program
that he closed in dollar he's not he's not on trial here he's not an applicant so so so steve
listen i think he can answer that question if he knows i mean maybe they were rented properties i
don't know if he knows it's still there property is still there it's still was it rented it's it
was it's still owned by condense okay um why not unless they sold it last week you know so i don't
to my history and by the way that doesn't mean it won't reopen as something else
so you're absolutely right but you're not there right so when when did you open your first 3.1
facility when i'm asking when i i don't i'd have to go do a little research so
uh a long time ago so a long time ago okay um now just in terms of where
or Pennsylvania or Maryland or
where. All right, let's
just stick with Philadelphia.
We've opened, probably, I've opened
during my tenure, 90 programs.
programs. Of that,
Of that, four of those programs are in Philadelphia. There are 3.1 that I opened. Four of the programs in Philadelphia and probably 12 to 15 around the state.
four of those programs are in
Philadelphia, they're 3.1.
Okay. So you've only opened four 3.1 programs in the city of Philadelphia.
Yeah. And 10 to 12 3.5s, which is the same license.
Okay, but I'm just sticking with 3.1. Now, with the 3.1s, were they open simultaneously? Were they all operating concurrently?
They opened at different times.
at different times okay and
and since they opened at different times
talk to me about the location where where were they
i'm objecting to this i don't know he has actual experience and knowledge
as the executive director he already stated he opened four
So here's the issue. I think he can answer if he remembers where the three or four were. I don't see anything wrong with that.
So we've opened one in Kensington. We opened one in Broaden, Washington and South Philadelphia. We opened one in Germantown and Wayne Avenue. And we've opened the fourth one at DRC, which is in North Philadelphia.
Okay, so the one in South Philly, how many, did Cadenzia own the property?
No, was that a lease?
So did you have to get?
It's a federal government property.
It was a federal government property.
Did you, did, what were the uses as of right, or did you have to go before the zoning board?
No, we went through Anna Verna, who used to be the city council president.
We went through them.
There was not a zoning application that was there by right.
But we had to still make sure the community knew.
We had to make sure that the state city council member, council president, city, what do you call it, the state representative, we went to everybody.
The community was not, actually, it was a cinder block company that made cinder blocks next door to us.
it had been a motor pool for the united states uh government and it still is it's still owned
by the federal government okay so so he has to take care of the building too they've so great
so there was really you didn't have to do a community benefits agreement there no okay um
so well we had to we had to
do whatever Anna Werner wanted us to do you know what I mean so yeah and that we made commitments
to to her about what we would do and what we wouldn't do that we would be the whole the whole
the same thing we would have had same discussion with her as we would with his own board so but
So it was never, it was the, you never had to execute a document.
Exactly.
The, the.
Facility.
Well, let me just ask you this.
What has been your relationship with ATM?
And American treatment network.
so the only thing you know about them is what you
testify to that you just did a basic google search
no not a basic google search i went to their website i went to their licensing
i went to uh uh look them up and all you know i did a research on the background and also by what
they said they were you know so get now just getting back to the facility in south philly
real quick um did you the one that he opened or the one that he opened the one that he right
you know it's been open for a very long time so you know and that's great right because that's
why i want to focus on it because i think you have a lot of history with it you you you stated
that you worked with Anna Verna
and to make sure that the community was fine.
Was your staffing already put in place?
What do you mean staffing?
The staff for the facility
was from other facilities
that had expertise
that could move there before we opened.
that could move there before we open it that's that's not what i'm asking i'm asking okay
That's not what I'm asking.
I'm asking that.
i'm asking that when you were in discussions with anna verna and it still wasn't you know
i presume the lease wasn't signed yet did you have staffing in place
we had a staffing plan of who we had a staffing plan yes great done similar work i mean and that's
And that's fine. But you had a plan, right? You didn't have people hired or anything like that.
I'm objecting that that's asked and answered.
Yeah. And I was trying to get him to complete his answer. So when it comes to the, oh, yeah, that's what I wanted to ask. How many residents were at that South Philly location?
25 25 now the what was the capacity um there was a first floor and a second floor we turned we
didn't we would use the uh first floor in the winter time for the city would uh asked us to
bring in home homeless women on the first floor of the building so we had separate entrances
but um that was it the capacity was was larger it might have been for 35 40 people okay and at
the winter time they you know during code blue you as a courtesy you would go to capacity okay
and and was anyone worried about the nature of the type of residence during code blue
was anna verna ever concerned about the the residents uh with the coat if no if she was
uh we would get a phone call and it would get i would get her did you put her on notice