Correct, or the owner of that business would be responsible. They would be held liable through the property owner.
But L&I can only cite the property owner, correct? They couldn't cite the lessee, 3/10/15 - L&I - BILL 150079 right?
Could amend it. If the tenant signs on behalf of the property owner, they'd be responsible.
Could Ms. Swanson just address that, please. (Witness approached witness table.)
The difference between an owner and a tenant for enforcement purposes and, my interest, for collection purposes.
For Property Maintenance Code violations, we would cite the property owner. So if there are tenants in the property that are committing -- their building is covered with graffiti or whatever, we would still 3/10/15 - L&I - BILL 150079 cite the property owner, because they are responsible for the conduct of their tenants.
So my point is that the owner would then -- for purposes of this bill and what the gentleman was asking, you really have to have the permission of the property owner rather than the tenant, right?
Absolutely. Absolutely. And because of the way the provisions of this particular bill, we would also be able to cite the bin owner, but the bin owner --
The bin owner would have to have the permission of the property owner, not just a tenant or business that is using that property.
So I'll just make the point that even for many of the very large buildings in places like 3/10/15 - L&I - BILL 150079 Manhattan and here in Philadelphia, there's a property management company, and it depends on the lease, and the lease can say that the tenant is responsible for everything and indemnifies the property owner and the property owner is responsible for nothing. So any type of fines or whatever that you give to the property owner then goes to the tenant anyway. And so I don't think it's a bad idea they're suggesting ultimately, that in addition to the bin operator, the property owner, that the tenant or the lessee, who may have a 20-year lease, could have a 30-year lease, could have a 15-year lease, that they be held responsible as well and ultimately just an additional party. What it does for them is that it gives them the opportunity if there's a tenant who is dealing with a property management company that you cannot get to the owner -- because a lot of times, for 3/10/15 - L&I - BILL 150079 example, even here in Philadelphia, the property management company is in New York and you never find the owner. You don't get through to them. What happens is, they can get authorization from the tenant, who is fully responsible for that property. And at any rate, it might help us as a city if we would do that in other circumstances, because that may be a hole where we are not effectively dealing with the property owner.
That's not something that we can do, because we don't get involved in leases. We don't get involved in private contracts between the owner and the tenant. That's not something that's really our business. We focus on the property itself and what the conditions are at that property. The property owner, under the Property Maintenance Code, is responsible to keep that property code compliant. So we don't want to get involved in the personal disputes as to who has what 3/10/15 - L&I - BILL 150079 lease, who is responsible under the lease. It's not something for L&I to work out. That can be civil court or however the owner and the tenant want to work that out.
I think one of our issues has been -- and Councilman Henon and I know Councilwoman Tasco has been working with this. Even when we require folks to give us a list of their property maintenance and their telephone numbers and so forth for the normal code stuff for residential properties, it's very hard to enforce. So it puts, as you said, L&I at a disadvantage.
If I can add. I'm sorry. If there is -- if there are licenses and proper documentation, we will have the information about the property manager as well who is acting on behalf of the property owner. Obviously 3/10/15 - L&I - BILL 150079 they need to have somebody in state if they are an out-of-state owner. So that information, if they have the proper licenses, we will be able to contact the property manager as well. We wouldn't be citing the property manager, but we would use them to get to the owner.
Yes. I just wanted to clarify that one of the problems that has been -- why we're having this issue is that there have been a proliferation of bins which don't have identification and they appear to be for-profit companies, and I think it's misleading. Many times people like to donate their clothing to the homeless and to people who need clothing, and if they know it's going overseas to some poor countries, I think they would be happy about that, but when these businesses are operated in a for-profit manner and are not being -- the cost of business of 3/10/15 - L&I - BILL 150079 maintaining them is not incorporated -- and it goes true for non-profits. You have to maintain them as well. But I appreciate your suggestions, and I think, quite frankly, if we remove some of these bins of these irresponsible companies and we identify that they're for-profit or non-profit, it would actually probably help you in your non-profit work. I do appreciate the good that comes of it, and I think people support that in general. So if you have these suggestions, if you would speak to the sponsor and the Chairwoman further to work out some of these details. Okay? Thank you.
Thank you so much. Any other questions for our witnesses? (No response.)
Seeing 3/10/15 - L&I - BILL 150079 none, anyone else here to testify on this bill? (No response.)
Seeing none, the Committee on Licenses and Inspection will close its hearing and enter its meeting. The Chair is going to recognize Councilman Greenlee for the amendment on Bill 150079.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I move the adoption of the amendments to Bill No. 150079. (Duly seconded.)
Seeing none, before we move to final passage for the bill, the bill sponsor is willing to look at some of these things, and if 3/10/15 - L&I - BILL 150079 there's any additional amendments, it will be made on the floor. Do you want a suspension of rules?
Okay. So the Chair recognizes Councilman Greenlee for a motion on the amended bill for 150079.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I move that Bill No. 13 150079, as amended, be reported out of this Committee with a favorable recommendation and that the rules of Council be suspended to allow for first reading at our next session of Council. (Duly seconded.)
Seeing 3/10/15 - L&I - BILL 150079 none, Bill No. 150079, as amended, will be moved out of this Committee with a favorable recommendation and, further, rules of Council be suspended to allow first reading at our next public session. This concludes the meeting of the Committee on Licenses and Inspections. Thank you all. ) - - CERTIFICATE I HEREBY CERTIFY that the proceedings, evidence and objections are contained fully and accurately in the stenographic notes taken by me upon the foregoing matter, and that this is a true and correct transcript of same. -------------------- MICHELE L.