Committee Hearing, March 3, 1998

1922 COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA RECESSED HEARING BEFORE THE COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Tuesday, March 3, 1998 9:45 a.m. - - - BILL NO. 980003 - An Ordinance Adopting the Operating Budget for Fiscal Year 1999 PRESENT: PRESIDENT JOHN F. STREET, Chairman COUNCILWOMAN AUGUSTA A. CLARK COUNCILWOMAN JANNIE BLACKWELL COUNCILMAN DAVID COHEN COUNCILWOMAN ANNA CIBOTTA VERNA COUNCILMAN JAMES F. KENNEY COUNCILWOMAN DONNA REED MILLER COUNCILMAN MICHAEL A. NUTTER COUNCILWOMAN HAPPY FERNANDEZ COUNCILWOMAN MARIAN B. TASCO COUNCILMAN ANGEL L. ORTIZ COUNCILMAN FRANK DICICCO COUNCILMAN BRIAN J. O'NEILL COUNCILMAN RICHARD T. MARIANO COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO - - - VINCENT VARALLO ASSOCIATES, INC. Registered Professional Reporters Eleven Penn Center, Suite 600 Philadelphia, PA 19103 (215) 561-2220 1923 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - BILL NO. 980003 I N D E X John Timoney, Police Commissioner------------ 1925 Philadelphia Police Department Thomas Nestel, Dept. Police Commissioner----- 2123 Philadelphia Police Department Joseph DiPrimio, Court Administrator--------- 2136 First Judicial District The Honorable Alex Bonavitacola-------------- 2141 President, Administrative Governing Board First Judicial District Judge Silverstein---------------------------- 2145 First Judicial District Sheriff John Green--------------------------- 2166 City and County of Philadelphia Paris Frazier, Budget Officer---------------- 2167 Sheriff's Department Thomas Costello, Commissioner---------------- 2177 Philadelphia Prison System Gary Henderson, Contract Administrator------- 2184 Philadelphia Prison System Diane Granlund, Deputy Managing Director----- 2187 Population Management, Philadelphia Prison System Ronald R. Donatucci-------------------------- 2203 Register of Wills, Clerk of Orphans' Court 1924 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - BILL NO. 980003 P R O C E E D I N G S

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. This is a recessed hearing of the Council Committee of the Whole. Today we will take testimony on a number of different bills, but primarily on Bill No. 980003, an ordinance 8 adopting the operating budget for Fiscal Year 1999. We'll just wait just a minute. Today, we are pleased to have with us for the first time our new Police Commissioner. It is my understanding that he will give some brief remarks. And, as you can see, he is flanked by the usual folks in the Department who come in and who subject themselves to this process. They are veterans at this, and we appreciate their attendance. We would like to congratulate our new Police Commissioner, and we know he is just learning the Department and all of the ins and outs of the Department. What I would like to do is provide an opportunity for him to make a brief statement and then entertain some questions and some discussion about his approach to policing and some things 1925 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY like that that are not necessarily in detail specific to our Department, but I think it will be very helpful to the Members of this Council to be able to have a discussion about, you know, where he is and the kind of things that he would like to do as we begin a discussion of this Department. The Chair recognizes Councilman DiCicco.

Thank you, Mr. President. And the new Police Commissioner made his first request of a Councilmember. He'd like a glass of water.

Can we -- that's right, this will be the least of our problems. (Laughter.) (Water provided to Police Commissioner Timoney.)

Commissioner, we are delighted to have you here with us. We would appreciate it very much if you would identify yourself for the record and proceed with your comments. We will have your comments, and we 1926 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY would like to entertain some discussion after which we can move a little bit more formally to the testimony regarding the Department's budget. But I think the Councilmembers -- I know I'm interested in some of your views about policing, community policing, things like that, what it means to you. And I think it would be very helpful to us, in addition to which our colleagues in the press are going to want to write every little thing. I mean, they want to know everything you think about all of this. So welcome, and please proceed with your statement. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Good morning. My name is John Timoney, T-I-M-O-N-E-Y, the Police Commissioner designated. I'd like to begin by again thanking you, Mr. President, for inviting me here today and for your kind remarks last week. Rather than go into the requests for the next budget, which my colleagues here will address later on, I would just like to make one or two statements regarding crime in the City. And 1927 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY then I think we'd all benefit by a series of questions. That would be much more enlightening. Reading the papers this morning, I think it would be remiss of me to comment on anything other than the series of homicides that occurred in this town over the weekend. They were tragic, brutal, awful, and I think, in some cases, symptomatic of urban violence that we find in most American cities throughout this nation. The difference, I think, for Philadelphia -- as I have been tracking crime not only up in New York but in other major cities, there clearly has been a decline in the rate of homicides in cities across this country from as high as 60 percent up in New York, 30 or 40 percent in Los Angeles and other cities. There are two major cities that have not seen the benefits of crime decline in the area of homicide. One is Chicago and the second one is Philadelphia. The homicide rate in Philadelphia has remained disturbingly consistent over the last five or six or seven years; in and around between 400 and 420 or 425 every year. That is, by any measurement, an awful 1928 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY statistic. It's way too high. Any number of homicides is way too high. But, clearly, 400 or 410, in my opinion, is off the sculpin. There's an article in today's Inquirer that referenced the most recent studies in homicides in this City, typical of most other cities that maintain somewhere around 45 or 47 percent of the homicides in this town are somehow drug-related. And that is not surprising. Depending who you speak to, depending on what city, you're in -- it can range anywhere from 30 to 35 percent up to 50 percent. By and large in most American cities, drugs is the engine that drives the crime machine. And if we are to do anything substantively regarding crime, the centerpiece -- the centerpiece -- has to be a drug initiative, a serious drug initiative. And we're in the process now of developing a comprehensive, extensive drug initiative that I firmly believe will be successful over the next six, seven, eight months in having a major impact on drugs and on the crime that is driven by drugs. 1929 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY There is one caveat that I want to offer before I take office officially next Monday, and that is regarding drugs. Some of you may have noticed in my resume last week or the week before, whenever I came out, that one of the areas of expertise that I hold within policing -- and I think I hold a few, but one of them that I think know inside out has to do with police shootings, officer-involved shootings.

And no matter how you break it down, no 12 matter how you compare assignments within police departments, whether it's a regular patrol officer, a detective, narcotics officer, highway officer, no matter how you break down the various functions, the most dangerous assignment in policing today in the major cities is in the area of narcotics. Narcotics officers are engaged in per capita at proportionately higher rates of gun fights than are officers on patrol, no matter what neighborhood they're in, more gun fights than detectives, no matter what assignment, whether it's homicide or robbery. The bottom line is, the narcotics business is a dangerous, dangerous 1930 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY business. The vast majority of narcotics dealers, especially at the mid-level, are all armed to the teeth, and they're not hesitant to use those arms at police, at rival drug dealers, or anybody that gets in their way. The reason I'm saying this is, while I hope it doesn't happen, if history is any judge, and if history's any predictor -- and it is -- as we begin this narcotics initiative, our officers will be in greater jeopardy, they will be shot at more; and they, in turn, will wind up shooting and wounding, and in some cases, killing drug dealers. This is not to scare you or to make an excuse; it's just to state a fact. And, for example, if you look at New York City -- and I'm not going to compare Philadelphia to New York City -- but the New York City Narcotics Division alone, just so far this year -- now, this is just the Narcotics Division in New York City -- they've had four police officers killed -- I'm sorry, four police officers shot and one killed just so far this year. It's extremely dangerous, this 1931 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY narcotics business, and there is nobody that knows this better than the folks that live in those neighborhoods. They are the ones that suffer day in and day out the violence surrounding drugs, and I think they know. The one thing I will make sure we do, before we undertake this drug initiative, is to make sure that our officers receive extra training, special training. I personally will address them myself. I spent four years in Narcotics back in the late seventies, and I was involved in a gun battle on my seventh wedding anniversary, on February 12, 1978, when my partner was shot. Again, it was a drug dealer who outgunned us. He had an automatic weapon. So back then, it was dangerous, I'm sure it was dangerous years 19 before that. But it's clearly, clearly much more 20 dangerous today. And I just want that known up front. I'm not using it as an excuse, I'm not looking to scare people. I am just pointing out a fact of life in urban America regarding drugs that I think most people recognize: that it's violent. 1932 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY And I hope there isn't an increase in shootings, I hope our officers don't wind up getting shot and wounded. But, again, as I say, if history is any predictor throughout the United States, then this is the type of battle we're in for. I am not, again, trying to paint a picture of dooms day, I'm just trying to paint a realistic picture of the uphill battle we face because, as I started off by saying, Philadelphia and Chicago are the two major cities that have not enjoyed the decline in crime, specifically homicides, that other major American cities have enjoyed over the last three and four and five years. With that, Mr. President, I thank you for this time to talk. And I'm ready to answer, I think, any question you or your colleagues have.

Can you tell us what community policing means to you. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Community policing, as you are well aware, is a term that became in vogue, I guess, in the middle to late 1980s. 1933 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY And it is a recognition on the part of police departments that if they are to become effective, really effective police departments, they need the support of the communities in which they work. Unlike other police executives that I've met in my travels throughout the United States, I do not necessarily subscribe to the theory that the police can't do it alone. Ideally, ideally, we should have -- and I think in Philadelphia we do have here -- strong community support for police and for crime initiatives. But I know in other parts of this country, I know in other parts of New York specifically, there are neighborhoods that have been so oppressed by crime and criminal activity, that have had such a poor relationship with the local police, whether it's as a result of brutality or corruption, or people that are just fearful to come forward, or when, in fact, they came forward to help the police, as happened in the County of Queens in New York City, a woman, Mildred Williams, came forward to help out against drug dealers and testified against drug dealers. 1934 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY She was slain by those drug dealers. In situations like that, the police will be not only naive but also remiss in their responsibilities if they think that they must have community support. Sometimes the community support will be there in varying degrees. Sometimes people are just too fearful to come out and support the police. Because, after all, they're there hours a day, facing these 11 troubles, this violence. 12 In those situations, again, in New 13 York, in those situations, the police have the 14 responsibility of going in and taking back those 15 neighborhoods and gaining public confidence so 16 that the folks can come forward and have community 17 meetings and support the police. 18 So, ideally, if we can get the 19 community support -- my understanding is that in 20 Philadelphia, it's very strong. Thanks really to 21 the political networking of the Mayor and City 22 Council, it is very strong here, thank God. And 23 even in the tougher areas, the areas that have 24 been overrun by drugs, where there is still strong community support. Well, thank God. Especially 1935 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY in those areas, we really have an obligation -- we, the Police Department -- to the folks in those communities that are stepping up to the plate, if you will, to help us out. So, in essence, my feelings regarding community policing, it's really the police and the community working in a partnership to come up with strategies to defeat drugs. They are not just the eyes and ears of the Police Department. While that's an important role they play, they're also -- I think they play an important role as morale boosters. It's very important for police officers, particularly in tougher areas, not only to get the vocal support of the community but even on a day-to-day contact with community residents, that they get the "Hello, how are you, good to see you," and that the officers respond in kind. Too often -- again, I'm not speaking of Philadelphia now, I'm speaking of my prior experiences. Too often, police officers will walk their beats or ride in their cars as if they are not part of the community, that they are somehow aliens, that they pay no attention, that they 1936 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY don't have a smile on their face or a kind word for a resident walking by. There's a whole variety of reasons for that, and not necessarily bad reasons. It's not that the police officers are somehow nasty or not interested. Sometimes they probably don't know better, they haven't been trained properly. A whole variety of reasons for them not being friendly, and they should be.

And I think I mentioned somewhere last week in those whirlwind tours that I took that I understand how cops are and I know I can speak to them as cop to cop, boss to cop. But I run, as some of you may be aware, the New York City Marathon. Mr. Street, and you'll appreciate this, and around the 16-mile mark, as you come out of Brooklyn and you come into Manhattan, and it really gets painful then, because now you've got to go up through Manhattan, up into the Bronx, back around, down through Harlem, and the hard -- the last 10 miles are awfully hard. And I'll be coming up First Avenue, and these police officers were just kind of standing 1937 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY there like statues. So I put up with that for about two years, and then I brought all my chiefs in. And I said, Listen, I am suffering out there. When I pass, they better be smiling and waving to me and saying hello. ) COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: So it's -- at least on Marathon Day, I demand that they smile and say hello. And, hopefully, it gets contagious and it catches on the rest of the year.

I can tell you, in the Philadelphia marathon, when you come around the Art Museum for the second time, headed out down to Councilman Nutter's district, you are at the 18-mile mark. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

And it's at that time when your body starts making all kinds of pains because your car's probably parked. You could see your car. (Laughter.)

And you know this is your last best chance to stop thinking injury and get off of the road. 1938 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY So I'm real familiar with how you feel around the 16- 18-mile mark. It's a little thing called "the wall" that you start hitting. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yes.

Where, psychologically you run out of energy; not physically, but psychologically. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: That's right.

You don't know whether or not you want to torture yourself any further in all of this. As a person who's run five marathons, I can certainly sympathize. Can you give us just a little bit of an idea as to what the process you'll use is for evaluating and reevaluating what is happening in our Department? We know that there are a lot of good things happening in our Department. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

We also know that people demand of us and demand of our Department -- you know, and policing, it's sort of like you either get to the Super Bowl or you don't. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah. 1939 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY

It's as simple as that. I mean, I'll never forget the Buffalo Bills. They get there, they don't win. People don't care anything about winning the Division, they don't care that some small progress is being made. They want to win and they want to know we are winning. So you can make some small progress, but as long as people believe that we're not as safe as we ought to be or as we could be, they're just unhappy, they're just unhappy. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

We recently had a team that went to the Stanley Cup. Our Flyers team went to the Stanley Cup, and the coach got fired. (Laughter.)

He didn't coach another game, went to the Stanley Cup and got fired. And I guess in politics and in government and in policing, in some respects, it's an all-or-nothing proposition. And that's what we all face. 1940 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

What I would like you to give us is some idea as to the steps that you will take to consider, whatever organization and reorganization, how long that will take, and when it is you will be able to sit down with the Members of this Council and tell us what it is we can expect. Now, you know, in times past, there has been a reluctance on the part of certain members of the department to be candid with us. There's been this attitude that, Well, yeah, you're an elected official, but some of this is -- this is like department business, and we can't tell you certain things. Well, we believe that if the 17 Members of this Council, the 17 members only, if necessary get in a room with the Police Commissioner or the Mayor or the Mayor's -- some of his staff, we think you should be able to tell us what is going on. And we will respect your confidence. If there is information that shouldn't be in the street, we will hold it. We think we have about as good a 1941 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY reputation as any legislative body anywhere in the country at anytime in the history of this City that has been able to work with the Mayor, work with the government, maintain a confidence. But we'd like to we just need to know what is going on. How long will it take you to, you know, kind of get your arms around it where you can sit down with us, tell us what you think, tell us what you think we're doing right in the City, tell us what kind of changes you think you'd like to implement so that we will know what's going on. You can tell us the kind of things that you think, you know, should be in the public domain, you can tell us the kind of things you don't want us to comment on because it could jeopardize the Department's strategy. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Mm-hmm.

But we just really want to get a feel for what kind of process we're getting ready to go through, how long it's going to take, and when we will be able to have some more specific information about what you think can happen in our Department. 1942 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah. That's a fair question, and I'll answer it in a few ways by way of example some of the philosophical underpinnings. One of the main thrusts of this Administration coming in will be to devolve responsibility for crime in this order in day-to-day policing, down to the district commanders. Now, we discovered this -- I discovered this in New York City as you set out in the early 1990s under that community policing program. After our community policing program was based on police officers getting -- working with community to solve a whole host of problems that differ from neighborhood to neighborhood, from borough to borough, and while we had some success stories, overall there were not a lot of success stories, and there was a tremendous amount of frustration. It finally dawned on us as we began to examine this, that we were being -- we, the brass -- that we were being unrealistic. And I think the public was being unrealistic in expecting, in New York's case, 21- and 22-year-old kids to solve 1943 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY these multifaceted, that somehow a 22-year-old kid walking a beat could call up the City Council President and establish a dialogue regarding lights that have to be fixed and things of that nature, or call on the Department of Sanitation, the Department of Highways, it just wasn't going to happen. They didn't have the sophistication, they didn't have the networking and a whole host of things. They didn't have the worldly view, if you will. When we looked at the organization of who was in the best position to kind of pull this off, it made sense for a variety of reasons that that rested with the precinct commanders in Philadelphia with the district commanders. They had the resources at their disposal. They had spent some time in the organization, had grown up in the organization. And by virtue of the fact that they were district commanders or precinct commanders had proven something about their ability to lead and navigate the political waters -- and I mean the political waters in the best sense of that word. 1944 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY So we vested our power. We devolved our power and authority down to the precinct commanders, not down to the cop on the street -- it would be unrealistic -- but to the precinct commanders, somebody who had the sophistication and the rank who could pull it off. And then we could also hold them accountable for crime, for disorder, and the things that bothered the local residents. So that was -- if I would say that there was one main thrust, it would have been devolving the responsibility down to the district level. That would be one of the underpinnings of this Administration. The other part was recognizing, which I mentioned earlier, the whole idea of narcotics. It's the engine that drives the drug machine -- that drives the crime machine. There's no way around it. And if you don't deal effectively with the narcotics scourge, using all of your resources that you have available, including getting help from the feds -- and I fully intend on leaning heavily on the feds. They've got -- in some cases, they have better and more resources than we 1945 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY do. And from my early contacts over the last week or two, there are indications that they're more than willing to help deal with the drug issue. That will be one of the central focuses. The other part will be over the next two, three or four weeks developing some strategies for individual crimes, strategies for homicides and a crime gun strategy, a youth strategy, a drug strategy. The timetable is -- I have a vision of a model in mind.

And my best guesstimate -- I am purposely putting a time limit, and I may live to regret this, but it's somewhere around 45 days, somewhere in the beginning of May. I'll present a -- what I consider a plan to the Mayor regarding where we're going to take this organization. And the one thing I will tell you right here and now: it will not resemble the organization that you see today.

Thank you very much. Can you comment on -- and I'm raising these questions 'cause they're in everybody's interests. But can you comment on the notion that the Police Commissioner should have a wider discretion in 1946 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY identifying top-level personnel, whether they're deputies, captains. We read a lot, we hear a lot about other cities where the Police Commissioner has wider discretion. We hear that we may have one of the most restrictive forms of organizations that exist. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Mm-hmm.

From your point of view, as a person who's worked in a department that had a lot more -- where the Commissioner had a lot more latitude, how important is that latitude? And at what point in time might you be willing to make recommendation as to where we might as a government go toward relaxing the requirements and allowing the Commissioner greater discretion in identifying people to work with him to implement his or her policies? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right. That's a -- it's a very good question. And let me see if I can't explain the different types of policing systems vis-a-vis civil service and the discretion of the Police Commissioner. 1947 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY On one hand -- not on one extreme -- but on one hand, my understanding of the Boston police, there was a tremendous amount of discretion on the part of the Police Commissioner. So, for example, Bill Bratton, who, as some of you may have been aware of, when he was -- I believe he was like a sergeant. He was taken from sergeant and made the number-two person in the organization. In Boston, they move them in out of positions from sergeant to deputy commissioner, from sergeant to chief of patrol and back forth. It's great going up, but they also get dumped back down during the Administration, so that's got problems attached to it. So that's the one extreme. On the other extreme you have Philadelphia, I think, that has a civil service system going right up to the top. And as somebody said, Timoney, you're lucky they don't have an exam for Commissioner, you would have failed. (Laughter.) COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well, be that as it may, it's a civil service system right up to 1948 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY the top. And I have nothing against civil service systems, let's have that up front. I came up through a civil service system partial. But, anyway, you have a civil service system that is exams right up to the top, which leaves the Police Commissioner no discretion. But -- and I hope I say this correctly because I'll get myself in trouble --

You can believe you will be widely quoted in your answer to this question. ) COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I know, I know. But the part that I really found baffling -- I understand civil service systems. But the part that I really found baffling in Philadelphia was the idea that you take a written test to become a detective. I mean, that just blew my mind. Because there have been very, very famous detectives in literature and in history. And my sense is, if you gave them exams, they would have failed. They have a thing called "street smarts," all right? 1949 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY They might not have the book stuff, but they've got street smarts. They've been out there, they've proven their mettle through arrests, through investigation. And that's generally how you become a detective. Whether you're an undercover officer making narcotics buys, a narcotics investigator, there is a system you can set up, a performance- based system that should lead to detective. So the idea that somehow you can take a written exam and then the next day be a detective, for me, it's just mind-boggling, all right. I don't like to keep pointing to New York but, you know, I spent 29 years there, and it's got lots and lots of problems, but it's also one or two strengths. And I think one of the strengths is the system of promotion. It's civil service for sergeant, lieutenant, and captain. But once you get up to a certain level -- and captain is that level. You know, you're middle management, you're at middle-manager level. Anything above that, you're really working closer to the Commissioner, closer to the executive staff. 1950 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY And not just me, but I think any Commissioner needs some kind of leeway. And I think the civil service system should stop around lieutenant to capital, as it is in New York. And then anything above that should be left to the discretion of the Commissioner to promote. It doesn't mean that you're just going to pick people at random. There are still systems that you can set up, performance-based systems and interviews and panels that you can set up. But the idea of making these promotions based only on a written exam or an interview, it's just ludicrous that the Police Commissioner doesn't have more discretion. Now, in the course of my meetings last week, I met with somebody who said, Well, you know, the reason why we have this civil service system is that it will prevent people like you, Timoney, from appointing incompetents. Well, I said, Why in God's name would I want to appoint incompetents, surround myself with incompetents? I mean, that's ridiculous on the face of it. Do you think I want to come here and fail? Or any Police Commissioner wants to fail? 1951 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY Do you think any Chairman of the Board of any major corporation is going to surround himself with incompetents? I mean, does the President of the United States or the Mayor of Philadelphia who get to pick their staffs surround themselves with incompetents? I mean, the statement is ludicrous on its face. I mean, I just. . In any event, I will be pushing for assistance from the Council and the good citizens of Philadelphia to somehow change that system. I am not looking to abolish the civil service system, I am not looking to abolish the unions. I grew up in the system that had a very strong union, very strong civil service. But there is a balance. There is a balance that that can be met and must be met and should be met. And the Police Commissioner needs to pick his or her own team. And if I fail, throw me out. If I fail, you should throw me out, but I should be given the latitude to pick my own team so that I can succeed. Because if I fail under your system, then maybe it isn't my fault; maybe it's your 1952 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY fault -- I mean, the system's fault.

But if you give me the latitude and give me the discretion to pick my own team and then I fail, throw the bum out.

How long do you think it will take for us to see a difference on the street? 'Cause that's where -- citizens, they're bottom-line oriented. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah. Listen, I would hope -- I would hope next Tuesday, but that would be unrealistic. But I think within a month after I would have visited every police facility, after I would have visited all police districts, all 9 16 divisions. Within a month, I will have done that, 17 I will have spoken to the officers and their 18 commanding officers. And, hopefully, that alone 19 will get something started. 20 And then I think within 45 days, as we 21 unravel or unveil this plan and go forward -- I 22 get a sense in this town that the police are no 23 different than police anywhere else. They are just looking to be led by people with a vision, by people with a plan. 1953 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY I think I know cops, I really do. I come up -- I'm very proud of the fact that I came up through the ranks and haven't forgotten where I come from and know what makes these men and women tick and know what they respond to. And, as I said earlier, regarding drugs and violence, history is a predictor. Well, as I tell people about me, you can kind of look me up. I have a history, look me up. And if history's any predictor, if I fail here, it will be the first time I failed in my life. I don't like to fail, so my sense is I won't fail. And my sense is you're going to see within 30, 60, you'll see a change. And I guarantee you that the press will be out there doing their polls, as they normally do. Do you see anything different? They'll speak to the cops and they'll speak to the public. And, ultimately, the public will be the judge.

One last question. We have in this City a Civilian Review Board, which has the responsibility, under both a local ordinance and a Mayoral executive order, the authority to investigate certain limited 1954 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY allegations of official police misconduct. Can you just comment briefly on how you feel about working with a Civilian Review Board, whether or not you've ever had one to work with in the past? And give us a sense of your feelings about these things. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah. Well, again, let me speak of the experience in New York. New York has worked with a with a Civilian Review Board my entire policing career. That began in 1966. The Board, up to 1993, while it was an Civilian Complaint Review Board that was made up of civilians and police, and the investigators were by and large police ranking officers, sergeants, lieutenants, and captains. It changed in 1993 by a referendum, and an all-civilian Civilian Complaint Review Board with civilian investigators came in. Now, there is this misconception across the country that somehow Civilian review boards and police departments are natural antagonists. I don't feel that way. It is in my best interest as a police professional, as a police executive, to 1955 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY have an effective civilian complaint review board. I need to know if I have brutal cops, cops that have crossed the lines, cops that have a history of discourtesy, disrespect, things of that nature. The problem that I have with civilian complaint review boards is I defy anyone, anyone, to point to a successful model anywhere in the United States. That's the problem. They don't deliver on everything they say they will deliver, and there are all sorts of reasons for that. Some of them I'm not sure of. Some. . My sense is that if you compared the Civilian Complaint Review Board that presently exists in New York City to the one that existed for the years prior, being tough on cops, the 18 one that was run by the Police Department by the 19 bosses in the Philadelphia Police Department 20 answerable to the Commissioner was a lot tougher 21 on police officers than the all-civilian compliant 22 review board was, a lot tougher, all right? 23 I think the investigations were better 24 because we had ranking officers doing the 25 investigations who had the same skills and 1956 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY abilities of the investigators in the Internal Affairs Bureau, who kind of had grown up in the organization and knew when an answer wasn't really an answer, knew that the truth was being shaded, could get through all the nonsense, these little dances that you do when you're doing your investigation. So they were much more effective. Having said that, here's the dilemma: There was a horrible incident up in New York back in August regarding a man by the name of Louima who, it is alleged, was beaten and sodomized by four police officers. That incident -- I was in New Zealand when I saw that on CNN. I mean, it didn't just get New York attention; it got international attention. When things happen like that happen, whether it's case or Rodney King in Los Angeles, it's very embarrassing for police professionals, no matter where we are. But getting back to the leave mea case, up until that point, up until August of last year, the people of New York, of all races, all colors, all ethnicities, were basically happy with the NYPD, with the performance. But that one incident 1957 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY shook everybody across all races and ethnic groups. It really shook them to the core, and there were cries for stronger civilian oversight and the Civilian Complaint Review Board, and they went back and forth. What I know in my heart of hearts is that we, the police, can investigate our own better and be tougher and stronger and get it done quicker. I really do know that.

If the public -- and they are in New York -- if they're clamoring out for this oversight, if it makes them feel better, they are ultimately our boss. And I went out for the first time and said, Yeah, I would go -- there's no 16 problem, I will go for it, I'll understand it. But I wanted it known up front that it may not be the best thing. But if it makes the people feel better, and they are ultimately our boss, then fine, I'll go along with it. But I want it understood right up front that there isn't a successful model that I can point to in my travels around the country and discussions with other police leaders. We've run into the problem, especially 1958 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY the problem -- for whatever reason -- of backlogs and poor investigation. And the charges will be hurled back and forth regarding, Well, the Mayor or City Council doesn't staff it up enough, there's not enough money invested in it. There's all sorts of reasons given for the reasons why they don't function. All I know is -- all I know is that, by and large, they haven't been very effective. And the people -- the people of Philadelphia or the people of New York or Los Angeles should hold the Commissioner responsible, right? And if the Commissioner doesn't take care of business, if the Commissioner doesn't do the proper investigations, and if the Commissioner doesn't take appropriate action, hold the Commissioner responsible.

Thank you very much. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Clark.

Thank you, Mr. President. Commissioner Timoney, welcome to Philadelphia. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Thank you. 1959 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY

I'd like to follow up on the question that you just answered. You say you've never seen a civilian review board that works. Can you conceive of one? What's wrong with the ones, the models that we are working with? Let me refine a little bit further. I agree with you, that the Police Commissioner is ultimately responsible -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

-- for all that happens and all that fails to happen on his watch. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

You really have the responsibility to be above even the suspicion of wrongdoing and what's wrong with police policing police that you can't ever rebut the presumption of a cover-up. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

So tell me what we can do or what any society can do to put a police review board in the position where it can both meet the psychological expectations and the real work of such a commission. 1960 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah. I mean, in essence, that question captures the dilemma. By the way, I didn't say that they never worked; I said that they don't work effectively. In other words, they may, as was the case in New York, where we wind up getting good cases where officers have done wrong. I don't know how it is in Philadelphia but in New York, there is a statute of limitations for months. So once the case begins, the 12 investigation begins, you have 18 months to bring 13 it forward to the charges and specifications and 14 ultimately to a trial room. 15 We wound up getting a lot of these 16 investigations, you know, completed at 17 and a 17 half months or with like a week to expire. Now, 18 we, the Police Department, would get the cases. Now, we've got to do our review, get our lawyers together, get ready. Because, in New York City, it's a regular trial room; you have a regular trial. There's a judge that sits there, the civil judge, and we prosecute the cases. We would run off into the problems of the statute of limitations. And we lost some 1961 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY pretty good cases because of the statute of limitations, because of the delay in the investigations. Now, I understood the folks at the Civilian Complaint Review Board, they said, Well, listen, you can't rush us. We have to do our investigation. And I understand that they've got to do their investigation, but we in the Philadelphia Police Department are the ones that have to implement the discipline. And there are things statutorily that you have to do in months. I mean, there's no 14 way around it. This is what the judges have laid 15 down. So we had this constant dilemma. 16 We sped up the process somewhat with 17 some reforms. But, again, I don't think it was 18 completely satisfactorily, and it's one of the issues that they're grappling with up there. As far as here, I have not met yet with the Civilian Advisory Board, Civilian Complaint Review Board. I will meet with them. So I am not familiar with the workings of how it works in Philadelphia. And it may turn out that Philadelphia 1962 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY has the one working model that I'm not aware of.

No. If we were, you would have heard of it. (Laughter.) COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I absolutely will meet with those people. My point in this whole thing -- I know I digress a lot. My point in this whole thing is that we are not natural antagonists, that it's in my best interest as a police professional to have a well functioning Civilian Complaint Review Board, whether it's all civilians or all cops or a mix of both. I need to know if we have brutal police officers, if we have police officers that are disrespectful, that there is going to be a good investigation and that those people will be brought up on charges. And if there are patterns developing, that we can get out ahead of those things and develop some training. And there are two types of discipline. One of them, I believe is -- the first positive discipline is training. A lot of things can be addressed by training. Then if it's so egregious 1963 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY or training fails, then you have negative discipline, which includes termination. If I had my druthers -- now, this is going to sound self-serving again, but if I had my druthers and I was setting up -- if I was God and they told me to set up a civilian complaint review board, I would have the board itself made up of all civilians. But I would use, as far as investigators, I would use -- if I didn't want to use active police officers, then I would use retired police officers of proven ability, that know how to conduct investigations. But then, of course, I'd be accused of double-dipping. You know, Well, now they're retired from here, and you got your pension from here, and now they're double-dipping. And can you imagine accusing God of double-dipping. So, I'll just. . . (Laughter.)

Thank you. When, sir, can we expect the much-delayed redeployment plan? You must have, by now, heard of it. (Laughter.)

It's the "P" 1964 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY word. When do we get the plan? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: The plan, I will be addressing all of those -- again, part of the package that I present to the Mayor will address not only not only a reorganization of the Philadelphia Police Department, not only a road map of strategies regarding crime and how we're going to address crime, but also part and parcel of this is the effective and efficient deployment of resources. That's crucial. It's crucial that officers are deployed to times and locations where crime occurs. Too oven, police departments all over this country, all over this world, are not structured, are not set up, are not organized correctly to fight crime and disorder and the fear of crime and things of that nature. You'll find -- and anybody -- common sense will tell you what anybody in the policing business recognizes, that the idea of having the same number of officers at 4 a.m. as you have at 4 p.m. is just ridiculous. I mean, things are different in those 12-hour differences. Things are different from neighborhood to neighborhood. 1965 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY The central business district obviously need police, lots of police, during the daytime. You wouldn't want the same number of cops down there at night. Similarly, in residential areas, where folks are at work, you obviously need a certain amount of police officers, but after 4 and 5 and 6 o'clock, depending on the neighborhood, you need more police officers out there. So they have to be out there when they're needed. Now, you run into clearly certain restraints regarding the shifts. There are certain rules and regulations. I mean, officers have rights also, let's be well aware of that. And so while, ideally, you may say, Listen, I'll bring the cop in -- Monday, I'll bring him in at 4 o'clock; Tuesday, I'll bring him in in the afternoon; Wednesday, mm, he can come in at o'clock at night; Thursday, it's picking up, we'll bring him in at o'clock; and then Friday, we'll bring him in at p.m. That's -- I mean, that's unrealistic. Officers have a certain amount of rights, they've got family obligations also.

Sure. 1966 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: But in the macro, we will look to shift major resources into those areas that need them.

Mr. President, my last question is: Commissioner, would you briefly discuss on our record your plan for coordinating the Narcotics Strike Force and the Rapid Response Crime Team as it relates to fighting narcotics in our City. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah, I mean, that -- I -- I will -- unfortunately, I will not discuss that right now because that's all part of -- well, it's two things. One, it's part of the planning stage; the second part is I haven't taken office yet so I haven't gotten really down into the bowels of the organization. As I said, I have vision, I have an idea in mind of how all this will happen, but those things, they will come out in due course; I would in about 45 days. And what I will try and avoid -- and this is for the media here -- we will, as much as humanly, avoid leaks and dripping this thing out. 1967 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY

Okay. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I mean, we want to come out with a plan that everybody can see at the same time and move forward.

Mr. President, I relinquish the rest of my time.

Councilwoman, that is so kind of you. That balances the rest of our time. It's a negative relinquishment. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Blackwell.

Thank you, Mr. President. Welcome, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Thank you, Councilwoman.

In this City, we are now going through discussions. And, in fact, we just had a meeting last week -- we contacted you about it -- with regard to quality-of-life issues. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Mm-hmm.

And we are concerned because it is on the table now, the 1968 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY issues from -- and I've read newspaper accounts with regard to your opinion on panhandling. And we're now evaluating what happens with homeless people and having meetings regarding, for example, locking up homeless people, which we have done on a small basis in the past only at specific locations, locking them up, even fining them for being homeless and being in a public place in Center City where they were not wanted. Most other organizations who are involved in the, quote/unquote, homeless arena feel that that is absolutely -- it doesn't serve the police well, it certainly doesn't serve the community well, and it doesn't help us to get homeless people off their feet, who then can't get a job because they have a record. And they're fined, they can't pay the $50 fine, and they can't get a job because they then have a record for being arrested in the first place. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Mm-hmm.

With regard to panhandling, we even have an organization, one of the most respected in the City, Sister Mary 1969 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY Scullion, who's even, on a trial basis, trying out a system to offer services in lieu of panhandling. So we are dealing with the issue of panhandling because we view it as a legitimate issue but one where just arrests, again, does not serve the police force or this constituency well. What is your opinion on these issues, and what can we hope to expect? And would you be willing, certainly, to hold up any enforcement if you are against these issues until you've had a good chance to examine what is happening and what interested people in this City are trying to do in this area? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well, regarding holding up any initiative, I have, I think, quite clearly said that I will spend the next 45 days not only meeting the police meeting community residents and gauging the temperature if you will fear of crime disorder things of in a nature. But the role of police in society, as I see it, is to enforce the laws of the society. In New York, homelessness was not a violation of law and although I know you read the papers -- and it's funny, when I went to England 1970 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY to give a speech or Ireland or one of those countries, they said, Oh, we know how you got the crime rate down in New York; you locked up all the beggars and the homeless, and the homicides went down 60 percent. Well, I mean, that's ridiculous on the face of it, but that's the perception that's out there. We did not in the NYPD lock up the homeless. It's not a -- it really isn't a police issue. We may be there with the social services providers to maintain the peace because at least in New York -- again, I'm not speaking of Philadelphia because I don't know it that well. But in New York, there's a certain significant segment of the homeless population that are folks that have been released, for whatever reason, from mental institutions, and are violent not only to themselves, but to anybody that will encounter them on the streets. So often, the police in those situations will be there to preserve peace and order. The panhandling issue is an issue that's a real issue in most big cities in America 1971 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY today. And I think the courts -- at least again up in New York -- have come down on the side of non-aggressive panhandlers -- this was on the subways. They've kind of wrapped it around the freedom-of-speech issue. And the police up there now are dealing with that according to the rules laid down by the court. " The squeegee pests were not, by and large, homeless people who were just washing cars for a quarter. That's what the press and some advocates would have you believe. Often they weren't. Often they were teenagers, early 20s, out there. And the idea of hustling for a quarter wasn't really the problem; it was some of the things that went along with it. For example, if you didn't give the quarter, if you didn't give the buck, you had your antenna snapped. Often it was a lone female in the car. If the window was open, a purse may be snatched; or if it wasn't open, the window may be kicked in. 1972 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY There was a whole variety of criminal behavior that went along with this aggressive panhandling that, in some respects, people coming into the city, whether it was coming in at night for the theater or a whole host of reasons, were fearful. And when we looked at the problem, when we looked at the problem -- in order to deal with any problem, you have to get an idea of the size of the problem. So we actually went around and counted the number of really aggressive squeegee people who had been dominating the headlines. Literally, for years, they, in some respects, were terrorizing certain intersections. When we actually went around and counted them, there were about a hundred.

So here you had basically a hundred people terrorizing half a million, a million people coming in on a daily basis. We tried a few approaches. Clearly, if they were homeless or needed some kind of services, we went around with the police, with the service providers and told them, Listen, this has got to stop, we're not going to allow this 1973 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY anymore. If you need social services, they'll be provided. And they said, What, are you crazy? We don't need any social services. So they would kind of get lost and then continue on their merry way, doing what they were doing. So we stepped it up and we began issuing summonses. And, of course, they took the summonses and, basically, threw them in the garbage and continued on their merry way. And we then started to arrest them and put them what we call "on line," put them in the system. I was a four-star chief at the time, and I remember going around -- because it was a pilot project -- checking. I ran into a young man about or 20, and he said -- I was talking to 18 him, I had my four stars on, and we were chatting. 19 And he said, you know, This is ridiculous. If I can't do this, if you're not going to let me do this, I'm just going to go out and commit robberies. As if, somehow, this was my choice that if I don't let him do this, he's going to go out and commit robberies. I said, Well, I'll tell you what, 1974 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY here's your choice: You can continue to do this and we will arrest you, you can go out and do the robberies, then we're really going to arrest you and we're going to lock you up and then you'll go away for a long time. Or you can change occupations. It's your choice. And that has kind of cleared up itself. I mean, do you have them once in a while? Yeah. Do you have the inebriates coming up once in a while, almost unconscious, to the cars? Yeah, but not to the extent that you've had it four and five years ago where especially the female population were terrified pulling up to intersections.

Yes. Ours generally -- we don't have that issue as much as we do homeless people in front of stores like Wawas or at various locations who certainly ask for money and that sort of thing. That's -- we don't have Citywide a big problem with them in a few locations with them trying to -- in some few locations, with them trying to clean your window. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Mm-hmm.

Ours is -- 1975 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY it's a little different here. They're certainly in the City. But let me that you and also say that we know we contacted you -- without even welcoming you here -- about this issue because we had meetings and were all ready to deal with this issue. And I certainly hope -- and based on your statement -- that you will be sensitive to just what's happening now and the big debate around it that's in the public arena now. Thank you. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

Thank you, Mr. President.

Thank you very much, Councilwoman. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Verna.

Thank you, Mr. President. I certainly want to welcome the new commissioner. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Thank you.

And I think his 1976 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY testimony has been excellent. I'm delighted to hear that we're going to have drug incentives and many -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Drug incentives, no. It's drug initiatives.

I'm sorry. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: We do not want to --

I'm sorry. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: We already have too many drug incentives. (Laughter.)

I'm sorry. I meant "initiatives." And I would just like to ask you a question or two, if I may. We have approximately 7,000 police officers. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

And when you subtract the chief inspectors and the inspectors and captains an lieutenants, etc., do you feel that we in Philadelphia have ample police to be patroling the streets? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Clearly, that's 1977 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY one of the issues I'll look at. But having looked at this issue a few months ago when Bill Bratton asked me to give him a hand, when I looked at the raw data and did some kind of comparative analysis with New York and some other major cities, it looks like, it looks like to me that there are enough officers in Philadelphia right now. But I am not a shy individual. If we need more, I will come back knocking on your door and ask for more.

I have the feeling you will. Several years ago, we had public hearings on our 911 system and the radio room. And at that time, we did send members of our staff to New York to see how their 911 system and radio room was operating. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

And our employees came back and said that they were all civilian personnel -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Correct.

-- who were 1978 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY supervisors. We presently have police officers who are supervising. In fact, I think we have several sergeants, captains. Are you also looking into the radio room? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I will be looking at everything. I will be looking at the entire Department. I'm still not fully familiar with, acquainted with all the rules and regulations regarding how police are deployed, what are the work guidelines, the union guidelines. Let me just say, I read one thing in one of the briefing papers some time ago that I found, again, quite amazing. That somehow the City had gotten permission to civilianize 130 positions. I forget what those positions were. But I just scratched my head. I thought why in God's name would I need permission from anybody to civilianize any position that I thought a civilian could handle. I mean, that just makes no sense. But, again, I haven't got into the inner workings of, the various rules that surround 1979 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY the Philadelphia Police Department. But if there are needed changes in that regard, I will put forth my recommendations regarding those recommendations. My philosophy is as follows: Anytime we can get a civilian to replace a well-trained, armed, uniformed personnel to perform the function, then, by all means, we should do it, or strive to do it, even at the middle-manager and upper-management level at headquarters. I think one of the strengths -- as I say, the New York Police Department has got lots and lots of problems, but one of its strength is we have a cadre of middle and upper managers that are civilian that have -- I think we'd be lost without them. For example, the person that runs 9-1-1, the whole system, there are a thousand people. That's run by a civilian. Budget offices are run by a civilian. Our planning and policy and research are civilians with a spattering of uniformed. It doesn't mean you don't need uniformed people. Sometimes you need the input of 1980 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY the officer in the street regarding policies and procedures. But there is room for entry-level civilians, middle-management civilians, and upper-management civilians, in my opinion, in most major police departments. I will look at that here and that's all I got to say at this point.

Thank you.

Thank you very much. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Tasco.

Good morning. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Good morning.

Welcome to Philadelphia. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Thank you.

You have discussed the civil service system -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yes, ma'am.

-- and your desire to make appointments above the lieutenant and the captain. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right. 1981 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY

I don't know if you saw The Daily News today. There's an article 4 in there relative to political influence on the civil service system. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Mm-hmm.

How could we have some assurance that political will would not influence the decisions made by you and the promotions? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I don't know if you were here -- are you talking about -- there was an article today in The Daily News regarding transfers. I didn't see anything on promotions. But if you're talking about promotions, how could I --

Either one. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Pardon?

Either one. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well, let me take promotions first.

Sure. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: In my opening statement, I said I had spoken to somebody last week who said, Well, Timoney, if we give you and 1982 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY your likes this discretion to pick your own, team you're going to pick, you know, incompetents. Well, why in God's name would I pick incompetents? If -- and so when you're talking about political influence, there's always the assumption, well, that the politicians, or whoever they are, will send over names of incompetents. If that was the case, trust me, I won't take them. If people want to bring to my attention stars and superstars within the organizations, I will take calls from anybody, all right? But I would do my own assessment, my own evaluation of what I see as best for the organization. And if that happens to dovetail in with the wishes or the phone call from a politician or a civic leader or something like that, great. But if it doesn't, then that's too bad. I have the final say-so. And that's the -- the beauty of the position I am in, I have, as I said, from Day One, a 22-month tenure, if you will. I hope the next mayor decides to keep me on, but I am not naive. I understand that new mayors have the right to 1983 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY pick their own commissioner, I understand that. And if the new mayor wants me to stay on three months as part of the transition six months or for nine months to get through the summer, while he or she takes care of other relations in government, great, I'd be willing to do that. But I am realistically limiting myself to months. And if you think I am going to 11 surround myself with political types from anywhere 12 or incompetents, I mean, that's not going to 13 happen. So let's put that to rest. 14 On the issue of transfers, which kind 15 of dovetails, I will -- and I've met with the FOP 16 and some other folks -- as I travel around this 17 country and the world, and I've worked with lots 18 of police departments in the last two few years, 19 the two issues that surface all the time in the 20 different police departments all over the world 21 are the issues surrounding promotions and 22 transfers. And it's amazing, it's absolutely amazing the difference in the police departments ethnically, racially, country to country, all the 1984 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY complaints were all the same, that, Well, you know, it's not who you know -- no, it's not what you know, it's who you know, it's an all buddy-buddy, old boy network, all the usual stuff. And so I recognize, having come up in a police organization, that that is the prevalent view of lots and lots of people. The only way I know of fighting that perception -- in some cases, that misperception -- is by developing a career path for promotion and also a career path for transfers that is transparent. And what I mean by "transparent," that's in writing, that people know whether, they're just entering the organization, coming into the academy, they kind of know there's a road map that allows them to pick and choose, they know what they have to do to get to certain assignments. Some transfers are easy. Others are more problematic. Some transfers can be based strictly on seniority; for example, if you're moving within a bureau, for example, within the Patrol Bureau, from one district to another, it's strictly a seniority-based decision, by and 1985 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY large. Other things may come into it, but usually seniority. If we're talking about something else, some more desirous detail, whether it's narcotics investigators or some of the specialized unit, it can't just be seniority; you need other performance indicators, including panel review. But if I went -- for example, if I'm starting this narcotics initiative and I want to -- I had this discussion last week with Commissioner Johnson.

If we're starting a narcotics initiative and we're bringing extra people on board, we're not just going to take people that are thrown at us, that, okay, we need a hundred, here's a hundred. Hold on, time out, let's look at this hundred, let's see what they've done. Do they come from the type of background that's going to indicate that they're going to be able to get out there and fight narcotics seriously? Are they self-starters, are they motivated? Do they know what they're doing? Do they have a good arrest activity, summons activity? Have they worked in some of the tougher precincts? 1986 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY All of those variables come into play when you're making a decision regarding transfer, for example, from a district into a specialized unit. And as much as humanly possible, they will be transparent, people know will know how you get there, and we will have a career path set up.

Thank you very much. We have in Philadelphia the community policing. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Mm-hmm.

How much involvement in that process would you accept from the community? And how has it worked in New York? And to what extent has the community been involved in making recommendations on the deployment of police or specific kinds of programs for the community policing patrols? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well, there are two issues. One of them has to do with community policing. And I think I had said earlier in my opening statement regarding community policing that it's ideally, ideally, you get as many people 1987 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY in every community -- particularly the distressed communities -- on board, helping out as best as you can see how, whether they're the eyes and the ears, the boosters, the cheerleaders, that's great. It may be unrealistic to expect it in certain neighborhoods that have had a bad experience with police officers or they're just beat down by crime and criminals themselves. So the more community input, the better. I've got no problem with that. I will meet with any group, at any time, anywhere, let's have that right up front. I've got no problems with that. When it comes to deployment of police officers, you all hired me, I'm the expert, I'm the professional, I'll make those decisions without -- without -- not political interference, but I understand that people -- If you left it open to everybody in Philadelphia, everyone would like to have a cop not on their block, but right in front of their house. Well, you may or you may not need a cop right on your block or right in front of your 1988 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY house. I think myself and my executive staff are in the best position, we are the police professionals. We will make deployment decisions not as we see fit, but based on a rational, mathematical model regarding crime, the incidence of crime, disorder, the fear, and a whole host of variables that come into putting this model together. So, again, deployment is our purview.

The other question I have is: What was your experience with combining the police, the transit, and housing police? What were the advantages and what were the disadvantages? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah, that's a very good question. The transit and housing police, prior to 1980 in New York City, were clearly distinct and separate police departments, and there are always problems regarding turf; in some cases, almost fist fights between the police officers and transit cops and police officers in the NYPD and housing, petty jealousies, a whole host of things. 1989 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY We began, I guess, in the early eighties, 1981, when we finally started rehiring police officers after a six- or seven-year period that we hired no police officers. When we began the rehiring of police officers, we put the transit and housing police officers and the regular NYPD, they all took the exact same exam, they all went to the academy together. And then, at the end of your six months, some went to the NYPD, some went to transit, some went to housing. That broke down a lot of institutional barriers because, you know, a week later, I'm out in the 17th Precinct, he's in some housing district, we meet on the job. We were in the academy together, we know one another. So those things were broken down, which, in some respects, lay the groundwork for the eventual merger, which happened, I headed up in the beginning of 1994 but culminating in 1995 where we took and merged both the housing and the transit and part of the NYPD. So the NYPD went from 32,000 to 39,000 cops literally overnight. The advantage of that, having been a patrol cop and a sergeant and a lieutenant, I can 1990 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY remember incidents going on, shootings in housing developments where I would show up as the patrol sergeant, two of my cops would respond. I would show up, the Housing, their two officers would respond, their sergeant would show up. So it was, Oh, okay, well, we have a homicide. Well, we have to get the detectives down. So our detectives show up, their detectives would show up. And they'd be standing around looking at one another, everybody afraid to hurt one another's feeling, who goes first, who's really in charge. Well, we better get a captain out here, he'll make the decision. So we call our captain, they call their captain. So now we have two of everything, you know? And, God forbid, the shooting should happen -- if it's a shooting, it should happen in the housing development and the guy that does the shooting runs away and then he goes down into the subway, then we get three of everything. Everybody's just kind of standing around, watching one another, afraid to hurt one another's feelings. So you had this duplication and 1991 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY triplication of effort, if you will, that was reduced. There is now one police department, there is one sergeant, there is one team of officer, one set of detectives that show up and do a fast and much more efficient job. So, I think overall, it benefitted us. The down side was that maybe, I'm not sure, the jury is still out on that. There was a feeling on the part of the subway ridership that if these transit officers became a part of NYPD, that somehow, they would lose their affinity, their dedication to duty to the transit riders,, that the police officers in the housing developments would somehow no longer identify with the residents of the housing development and some of their special needs, especially in some of the tougher housing developments, that somehow, given their druthers, they'd just as soon come out of the housing development and walk, since they were now New York police officers, walk in other blocks as opposed to patroling where they want. The way you get around that -- not get around it, but the way you ensure that not happening is really close, strict supervision, 1992 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM.

JOHN TIMONEY holding the supervisors accountable, holding the captains accountable to make sure -- and then going out and meeting with community residents and find out if what they were afraid was going to happen is in fact happening and making sure you take corrective action. So the jury is still out in that particular part.

Were they all part of the New York general fund? Were they paid by the City of Philadelphia (sic)? How did you work that out? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah. The New York City Police Department was obviously paid by New York City. The interesting part was, New York City transit police were ruled and owned by a semi-state agency there, which is, you know, the Transit Authority, which is a subsidiary of the Metropolitan Transit Authority. But New York City paid the bill. We paid the salaries but they controlled another institution, another semi-government agency controlled the police officer. That actually wound up to be a bargaining chip used by Mayor Giuliani. When people were opposing the merging, 1993 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY he said, Fine, I'm not going to pay 'em, you pay 'em. So that kind of sent shock waves throughout the organization. And then with the housing, there was always the issue -- a lot of the housing police officers' salaries are paid through grants -- and I mean big grants -- from HUD. Obviously, we went down to Washington and met with HUD officials. And that money would still come forward, but we had to maintain our commitment. Whatever those commitments were prior to the merger, we had to maintain them after the merger. And those commitments, by and large, have been met.

Okay, I have one other question. We have many police stations in a number of communities throughout the City. How do you feel about many police stations and keeping them? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I know there are ten and, I think, another one on the way. I have -- overall, I support the idea of a mini station. I just have some concerns. I'm not going to echo those concerns now because 1994 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY I'm going to spend, as I said, the next 30 days or so visiting all police institutions. And I'll look at them and I will check them out. The one caveat I would offer up -- and I think I mentioned this to some Councilmembers last week. What I don't want the mini stations to become our hangouts for the police officers. There's a kind of herding mentality that happens with cops. So I want them, I want police officers patroling; patroling their neighborhoods, patroling their blocks in the cars, the whole bit. So that that's my only -- it really is my only concern is that they don't become hangouts. And if that's not case, then fine, then we've got no problem. Then the benefits outweigh greatly any disadvantages. So that's the only concern. And I made a mistake. There's 29 mini stations and 10 or 11 mobile. So we'll look at that.

I have one final question. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Is that the final final one? 1995 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY

I think this is the final one. I have a lot of them but I'll make this the final one. When I first came on board, I introduced legislation to help control the whole issue of abandoned cars. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

And we still are having problems with abandoned cars in the neighborhood. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

And some problems we have with the salvers who have been hired to remove the abandoned cars. And you may not have an answer about that today. I just want to bring it to your attention that it is a problem. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well --

And we need a better system to remove abandoned cars from the streets. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I mean, anything that helps clean up esthetically neighborhoods really helps improve the perception of crime, this whole idea of the quality of life. There's 1996 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY nothing worse than abandoned cars on city blocks. It just -- it really gives an indication that really there's nobody in charge, that nobody cares. And it's not a minor -- in my opinion, it's not a minor issue; it's a serious issue. And whatever needs to be done to get the tow companies much more effective, much more efficient. And whatever we can do in the Philadelphia Police Department to help in that situation, we will. I know the system we have in New York, it's not perfect, but I know that system. And if there are some parts of that system that we can employ here in Philly, then I will clearly take a look at it. But I could not agree with you more regarding the abandoned autos.

Thank you very much.

Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Fernandez.

Thank you, Mr. President. 1997 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY And welcome to our City. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Thank you.

Is it "Commissioner Designee Timoney"? First, I just wanted to go back. You had mentioned earlier maybe citizens would actually, if they had the choice, like to have an officer in front of their house. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

That reminded me of -- probably you could count me out on that one, I'm more concerned about the quality of policing. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

Because it brought to mind -- we live in the neighborhood where there was the first MOVE confrontation, where I think -- it felt like forever, but it was at least six months if not a year, there were officers stationed sometimes two at every corner. We live on a corner house, so there were always officers out in front of every house. On Christmas Eve, I went up to the third floor where we had hidden the kids' 1998 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY presents. And when I went to try to get into the room, the door locked was locked. And I thought, What's going on here? Finally we got in and found out that someone had crawled -- it's on a corner property -- crawled along a little third-floor little area to walk in, had crawled all the way around, broken a window in the front of the house, and had been in the room, I guess, drinking and smoking and making themselves at home on Christmas Eve. So in that case, an officer or several officers in front of the house did not necessarily make it safe, so I'm more interested in the quality of policing, which I think you are too. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yes.

I did want to note that you started off your comments today saying what you -- how important you thought it was for the Police Department as a primary function to be focussing on the drug and narcotics trade and really focussing your skilled and talented resources to go after the violence and the very negative effects of the drug business in our City. 1999 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY And so I certainly support that. And then I know, from a lot of the other conversations, that you're very interested in the quality-of-life crimes. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

Which when some of us in this Council started to deal with them, some critics would say, Well, why are you worried about those petty little things instead of really worrying about the drug business? My response is -- and I'm sure yours is -- you can do more than one thing, you can do both. And so on those quality-of life-crimes, I'd just like to note and call your attention to the fact that the Police Department here in the City, last February, started to crack down on motor vehicle drivers who were violating the rights of pedestrians and endangering their lives. And there's been some dramatic results which, the year before, we'd had 60 pedestrians killed. This past year, it dropped very dramatically to 41, which is the lowest number since they've been keeping records on it. 2000 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

So I think that's been a very successful part of the police activity here. And there had been education for years, but what made the difference this year was, it was education coupled with the police enforcement. So I think there has been important progress here, and I would trust you would continue that. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Mm-hmm.

I'd say the third part of policing is the prevention piece of it. And I think, in our conversations with you when you met with Council a couple weeks ago, you also noted that that was a very important part of your overall strategy, to try to prevent crime before it happens. And I'd like to call your attention to something that, again, came out in some hearings here in March, about what the police had been doing in terms of trying to prevent truancy. And that, in fact -- or, actually, it's preventing crime by kids who are truant. 2001 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY And it's my understanding from the testimony of the Police Department in those hearings that for the last year or so, two officers per division have been deployed during those school hours, who round up truants, take them back to their school or back to their home. And that in the Northeast District, where they measured the effect, there had been a 50 percent drop in car theft during those hours, and a 40 percent drop in overall crime. So, again, I think there are some good done that have been done in the Philadelphia Police Department, and I hope you'll take a careful look at that and maybe even see if more should be done if it's been that successful. What I did want to ask, however, was I had heard that you may have a different view of the role of 911 and the response to 911 than we had been led to believe. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Mm-hmm.

I think for a while here at least, sort of poplar knowledge, one measure of the success of the police was how quick was the response to 911 calls. And certainly, it 2002 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY is important, particularly after the Eddie Pollack tragedy. But could you just briefly tell us how the response to 911 calls fits into your overall strategy of policing? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah. The problem in policing is if you start to segment too much, you begin to miss the big picture. Your statement earlier that you can do two things at the same time is absolutely correct. As they say in Brooklyn, it would be even more correct if you said we do lots of things at the same time, lots and lots of things. And you find out, if you take a corporate perspective of crime, that there is a whole -- drugs is only one area, but that there a whole lot of linkage, interchange; whether it's with truancy programs, other crime prevention programs. Let me just deal with the truancy part, and then I'll get to your 911 question. Coming out the door in 1994 when I took over as the chief, I had spent 1993, which was quite a valuable year, in the Research and Planning Division, under Commissioner Ray Kelly. 2003 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY And that year away from the streets gave me an opportunity to start doing some studies and testing some theories and really getting behind the numbers regarding crime. So, for example, we looked at the crime of robbery in New York City. And for years, New York was the number-one city in America for robberies, number one per capita. Any way you measured it, it was number one. m. m. , were committed by kids under 16. We said, That's crazy, they'd be in school, they couldn't be out there. Well, obviously, they weren't in school. Then when we looked at the victims, and we found that about 30 or 40 percent of the victims were also kids under 16. So we developed our truancy policy, not to deal with the -- only with the robberies, but for a whole variety of reasons, whether they're out there using drugs or shootings, and get 'em 2004 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY back in the classroom. And we worked very, very close with the Board of Education. Our truancy, which has been to get kids off of the streets, out of the pinball machines and things of that nature, once you get it up and running, the robberies -- surprise, surprise -- began to drop. So I would look carefully at the truancy program here. And if I think we can get a bigger bang for the buck by increasing it or changing it, we will do that. On the issue of 911, where myself and Bill Bratton really, I think, looked at policing different than most chiefs of police around the nation, we viewed 911 as almost -- as almost -- we were slaves to 911. Officers would sit around waiting for 911 calls, and then they would respond. And so if it wasn't busy, they'd kind of, you know, pull over, read the paper, have coffee. They'd be kind of waiting for those jobs. And then sometimes, in the evening hours especially, the jobs would come fast and rapid in succession. You know, you'd have backlogs and a 2005 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY whole host of things. But they would somehow manage, they would handle as many as they could. And by 5 o'clock, it had quieted down. And then the next 6 day, they'd repeat the same process all over 7 again. 8 Well, as I envisioned it -- and we did 9 it in New York and we will do it in Philly -- we 10 have a moral, legal obligation to respond to 11 priority-one calls as fast as humanly possible, 12 whatever that is. Nobody knows what the correct time is. But there are other things that impact on 911 calls, stuff that you deal with on a daily basis, whether you want to call it quality of life or drug dealing, and I'll just give you some examples.

If you have open-air drug sales going on at some corner in West Philly or North Philly, the folks that live in those areas are going to be calling 911 on a daily basis, sometimes a couple of times a day. And the patrol officers will roll up, and there's very little that a uniformed officer 2006 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY by himself or herself can do in regards to narcotics trafficking while they're in uniform. It's extremely difficult. However, if we send up our narcotics officers in plain clothes with the whole team and we take out that block -- and I mean take it out and close down it for good and then put in a uniformed presence -- that will reduce the number of 911 calls that will be coming in, the repeat calls, which are the calls that really bog us down, the really non-emergency ongoing quality- of-life calls that wind up bogging down the system. And so things of that nature, we will do to help reduce the number of calls going into 911. And also getting our officers much more proactive. On the prevention end, which you mentioned earlier, prevention is an interesting concept theory regarding policing. Most people, even in the profession, but clearly outside of the profession, most civilians, you ask us, Well, how do police officers prevent crime? Well, you know, you put cop on a beat. Well, that's great. You 2007 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY know, it sounds okay. Once the cop's there, nothing's going to happen. Well, in this respect, I view policing as almost like farming. And, you know, I'm Farmer Timoney and I call policing on the block just like scarecrow policing. I put a cop out on the block 'cause I'm a resident and it makes me feel real good, right? And I can sleep at night because the cop is out there. And if I'm the farmer, I put out the scarecrow, and I can go to bed at night because the scarecrow will chase the crows away, and I'll be able to till my land and get the produce out. Unfortunately, uniformed officers may or may not be the best at preventing certain crimes in certain neighborhoods. And uniformed may not be the best strategy. It may be that if it's a drug condition, that all the uniformed officer will do, as he or she passes by, they'll cease their activity, and once they go around the corner, they will continue their activity. Or if there are two guys involved in purse-snatching, and they know there's a cop in 2008 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY this block, they'll just go around to another block. They will change their strategies. We have to be able to change our strategies. One of them -- as I say, an officer on the block makes everybody feel better but may not be the best way to spend the resources. Just like the farmer or the scarecrow setup will get away the scarecrows (sic), their crops can be blighted by weather, cold, rain, by a blight in the land, worms, things of that nature. There are all sorts of ways of killing a crop. And so the farmer not only needs the scarecrow, the farmer needs maybe an irrigation system, a heating system. He may need some kind of chemicals to kill whatever blight is in the land. There are all sorts of ways of getting this crop to be successful at the end of the growing season. Similarly in policing, you may feel better with the cop in uniform on your block. It may not be the best thing for you. It may be that we want some detectives in there, it may be that we want some narcotics officers in there. We need to have in our little bag of 2009 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY tricks a whole host of strategies dealing with the crime from neighborhood to neighborhood. And that's kind of how I view it. And that's how we will tackle it.

My last comment was on the Police Civilian Complaint Advisory Board.

Excuse me, Councilwoman, when you get to the three last questions, this is your first last question. (Laughter.)

Just kidding.

Just a comment. I would like to suggest that perhaps a goal or something to look at would be to try to have the complaints so few and the messages so clear in the Department about what will be done for officers who do step over the line, that in some ways, the Police Civilian Advisory Board would have very little to do. And I bring that up because when this Council and this Administration came in to office, we had this new State authority, the PICA 2010 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY Authority, that was to stand over us and make sure we did a good job with the budget. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

And if not, they would intervene. I think this Council and Administration works so effectively together to deal with our budget problem, that basically the PICA Board is almost irrelevant, and they have very little to do because we're doing our job. And I would think that to me would be the best goal instead of arguing over whether it should or shouldn't be there or whether it's the best or worst model in the country, I think the goal and what I would like is to have so few complaints and to have any complaints that are legitimate and really need to be dealt with would be so clearly and swiftly dealt with by you that trust in the Department and officers and civilian trust would be restored. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Mm-hmm.

And we'd still probably need it as check, but it would not have that much to do. I think there have been issues. And, 2011 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY again, I urge you to talk, as you said you will, with the members of that board. I don't think it's been allowed to function with the kind of respect that it deserved. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah. Uh --

Thank you. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well, thank you.

Thank you very much. The Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter.

Thank you, Mr. President. Mr. Timoney, on this same point, earlier in the testimony, in response to a question asked by the Council President, you made reference to a concern about the lack of successful models. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Mm-hmm.

Do you have any information or, have you had any contact with the Police Advisory Commission here in Philadelphia? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: No. As I said earlier, that I plan on meeting with them. And I think it was Councilwoman Clark who had asked the question. 2012 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY And I said, Well, I hadn't met with them. Maybe they're a lot more successful than, for example, the one in New York and other parts of country. And she said that she didn't think, but I will not be swayed by that one way or another. I will meet with those folks. And whatever I can do to help them, I will. My point in this whole issue is I do not subscribe to the theory that some people put forth that somehow there's a natural antagonism between review boards and the police chief, that somehow our goals are different. They're not. It is in my best interest, if there are brutal cops or corrupt or cops or cops that are disrespectful, that those officers are highlighted. If there are patterns developed, that I get on top of all of these things. It is not in my best interests, it is not in the Police Department's best interests that these folks aren't brought forward and dealt with swiftly and straightforwardly.

What's your measurement of success? How do you define "success" in this realm? 2013 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: That's -- that is -- believe it or not, that is a terrific question only because nobody has come up with a satisfactory answer to that. How do you measure success? I speak to academicians all the time, and they talk about the, you know, performance-based systems and you set them up and here's how you measure success. They look great on paper. Except they often don't take into account the -- they don't take into account human nature, not just the policing but in any institution. Most police bosses, most civilian bosses are not confrontational. They're not going to -- they're not going to tell the person, look 'em straight in the eye and say, Listen, you really are below standards. You know, they're not going to put it down on paper, they won't, they just won't. There's a tendency for everybody to rate everybody meet standards usually above standards. And when we have a system like that and it's -- there have been textbooks written on this whole issue. When you have systems like 2014 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY that, they almost become useless because it's impossible to discern who is really well above standards and who isn't.

Well, I guess I'm intrigued, then. If you say that there are no 7 successful models but you can't define "success," or you believe that it is virtually to make that kind of evaluation -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

-- then I do have to question your analysis that there are no 13 successful models. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well --

Do you think there are successful Internal Affairs operations all over the country? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Oh, absolutely. No, we're talking about two different -- I thought you said personal evaluation systems. I thought that's what you were talking about.

I was talking about civilian police review boards or the Police Advisory Commission. That's what we've been talking about. 2015 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah. Well, I mean, on that issue, the success would be -- the ultimate success is how people feel about it.

Right. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right? Do they feel it works, do they feel they get a fair shake?

And, apparently, most people across the country don't feel that their Internal Affairs Bureau Division, Department in their various police departments are not working in their best interests. That's why there are so many of them across the country. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: No, but I think. . . I would put up the New York City Police Department's Internal Affairs, the one that was set up under Commissioner Kelly four years ago, I would match that with any investigative unit in any government entity anywhere in the United States. So you could set up --

Unfortunately for you, Mr. Timoney, you're not in New York. 2016 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well, fortunately for me is that I came from New York and I helped set up the system there, and we will set up a system here that I guarantee you will be second to none.

Okay. I'd appreciate your cooperation with the Police Advisory Commission here in Philadelphia. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Based on the tone of that question, you make it sound like I'm not going to cooperate with them.

No. 14 COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Okay, because I said right up front that --

I'm saying I'd appreciate it. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Oh.

I'd appreciate it. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: You have my commitment ahead of time.

Great. You said earlier that you're not in a position to talk about current deployment or future deployment 2017 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY because you want to have an opportunity to review what's going on here in Philadelphia, I assume, after you're sworn in. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Mm-hmm.

We have police 7 districts and you've referred to them earlier. 8 COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right. 9

Do you have any 10 concern about the size of police districts? And 11 you've obviously worked in New York, and I think 12 there are 70-some -- 13 COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: 76. 14

Yeah, there are 15 70-some districts up there and other police 16 districts across the country. 17 Is size of district a concern? Or is 18 it the actual number of officers that are working 19 in the district compared to the amount of crime in 20 the district? 21 What if any of those factors is a 22 critical factor? 23 COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well, there isn't any one factor; there are a whole host of factors that come in -- geography, population, 2018 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY crime rates, types of crimes -- that go into developing a model of what in fact are the right number of officers for a given district. When you get down to geographic size, just the few days I've spent there and going through them, clearly, it's similar to New York and similar to most police departments around the country and big city areas. You've got precincts that are geographically large, some that are medium, some that are small. You have got to come up with the best plan, sector plan. The size of the precinct is maybe deceptive and may lead to misinterpretations of how the policing service is delivered. A more accurate barometer, I think, is the activity within each sector. So one of the things we will do here, and this one I'm not sure about how long it will take. We're trying to do for the first time since 1972 a work load analysis. Because, clearly, this City has changed in the last 25, 27 years. And so at a bare minimum, we will look at how work, you know, police work, arrests, radio runs, and things that nature, how it is 2019 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY distributed across the spectrum. But, again, that's just one of the many variables you take into consideration. I could go on and on and on, dealing with such things as troop factor and all this other nonsense, but that's for private meetings.

Okay. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: It's rather mundane stuff.

What are your three major priority areas right now? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Oh, I would think the number-one issue, by far, is the issue of drugs and violence surrounding the drugs, the proliferation of guns. For example, I said earlier, most major cities in this country have seen a decline in the homicide rate over the last four, five, six, seven years. Philly and Chicago have not. But even more interesting is --

Why do you think that is? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well, let me get to the second part. 2020 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY More interesting is that in 1990 in New York, when we had our all-time homicide rate, we had 2300 people killed. It was astronomical, it was like a war. When we did the homicide analysis, fully 75 percent of the homicides were committed by guns. They're readily accessible. That number, that 75 percent figure is down -- don't hold me to this, but I think it's in the low 60's the last time I checked. In Philly, it's 81 percent, and it remains at that figure for these couple of years. And, my God, four out of every five homicides in this town are committed with guns. And, you know, guns go hand in hand with the drug trade they're inextricably linked together. I think guns in this town are a serious issue.

So what would you do to reduce the number of guns on the street? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Again, I'm not going to do this piecemeal fashion. We will come out with a whole strategy. I'm not going to start discussing the specifics of the plans. 2021 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY We will come out with a plan that comes out with a strategy not only for the drugs, but for robberies and homicides and gun trafficking and truancy and a whole host of things.

Okay. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: As far as the other priorities, that would be number one. And, clearly, the quality of life. And I'll be in a better position, I think, after spending the next 30 or 40 or 50 days meeting with various community members to gauge the temperature on the whole issue of quality of life from neighborhood to neighborhood because, as you're well aware, it changes from neighborhood to neighborhood where things are important to folks. And I think we've got to be cognizant of that. I think, by and large, if you speak to the average person, it's the stuff that really bothers them the most. This is the things -- you know, shooting and a homicide is traumatic and dramatic, but it's here and gone. But the quality-of-life issues are things they face every day, the low-level drug-dealing, or whatever it would be, as they 2022 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY leaf their house to take their kids to school in the morning. These are the things that bother them on a daily basis. So quality of life is clearly a priority. Then within the Department, there are two personal things that I want to accomplish before I leave, if you will, my legacy. One of them has to do with developing a career path, which I mentioned earlier, not just for senior management but for officers from the moment that they hit the academy, that they have a road map of how they can move through the organization, how they can better their careers, including education. And then the second part is developing -- I mean really developing -- middle managers in this organization through training. I don't mean send them away to a school for two days and some seminar. I mean really investing time and money into developing middle managers, really developing the leaders of the future. And that's going to require time and money. It's going to require hooking up with some of the colleges, whether it's Wharton or something 2023 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY like that, on business courses. It's going to require us being willing to allow captains and inspectors to leave us for three months, or whatever it would be, and any other institution, whether it's Harvard or whether it's courses that are run by PERF, the Police Executive Research Forum. As I said earlier, the NYPD has got lots and lots of problems. But its one, I think, main strength is its middle bench. The middle managers have just started on the commission -- and Ben Ward, who I hope you'll get to meet next week, who is a great believer in education and training -- not just lip service, but actually investing the time and the money, Department's time and the Department's money into this so that you have a cadre of middle managers that are perched, ready to assume leadership positions in the upper echelons of this Department. That's internally what I'd like to accomplish in the next 22 months.

What are your ideas on fighting corruption? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well, I forget 2024 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY who it was. I guess it was Councilwoman Fernandez who talked about drawing the bright line in the sand so that there's no clear -- there's no 5 misunderstanding of what will not be tolerated. I will draw that line clearly in the sand. But I have looked at Internal Affairs, how it's organized in the Philadelphia Police Department. And I can tell you right here and now, I am not impressed. And that will be one of the -- well, I'm not going to give out too much too soon. As I said earlier, there will be major changes within the organization. That will clearly be one of the major changes.

Okay, I appreciate the honesty. Do you have any thoughts on -- and maybe you can reflect on your past experience. When you were a -- your last rank was. . . ? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: First Deputy Commissioner.

Okay. And did you have, I guess, an executive staff, or did you have a group people that you appointed to work with 2025 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY you, your team? I don't know the complete structure of the New York City Police Department, but -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

Okay. Can you tell us about the structure of the team that you assembled, what kind of officers? Do you have any numbers on their gender or race or any of that kind of information? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: The -- in 1994, I was chosen by Bill Bratton as the four-star chief. And at that time, I was a one-star chief, and he promoted over of my bosses, and I became 15 a four-star chief, the youngest four-star chief in 16 the history. 17 And together with Commissioner Bratton, 18 we set out to pick our team, if you will, people 19 that I had grown up with in the organization. And we put together a team. Now, it's a -- I mean it's a public record what that team consisted of, but I think we had some of the real superstars of the organization and including people who did not think like regular cops. They were somehow -- 2026 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY there are one or two of them that I could think of. They looked at the world different than anybody else. They looked at the world upside down, which I thought was kind of neat. Because there's nothing worse than insular thinking, that you think you know it all. You need the gadflies to prod you to make you more aware, to make sure that you look outside the box and look at things differently. So we had a racially diverse gender-diverse but especially intellectually- diverse lot that really ran the gamut. And I remember Bratton -- 'cause one of them was actually my best friend growing up in the organization, he was one of the gadflies. And Bratton, even to this day, he still can't figure out how Timoney and Julian, complete opposites, are the best friends. Well, you know, we grew up in the organization together, I valued his opinion. He's -- we made him "The Chief of Big Ideas" because he could think of things that no normal human being could think of, that we would never even speculate about. So it was a team like that that we put 2027 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY together.

Okay, just my last question. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Mm-hmm.

What do you expect by this time next year to be reporting as hopefully the drop in crime, between the crime rate this year and the crime rate next year around this time? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I am not sure. I think crime will definitely be down. But let me offer up one caveat. One of the things that I will look to do very shortly, in the next couple of weeks, is do a complete audit of crime in this town.

I'm sorry. I didn't hear you. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Of crime in this town.

Right. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: And there are various ways of doing that, including the 911 system, comparing it to crime reports and seeing if match up. 2028 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY And so when I get a better understanding of crime, the nature of crime, what it is, then I'll be in a better position to speculate. But if crime isn't going down or it hasn't gone down by this time next year, I will not only be surprised, I will be very disappointed. (Councilwoman Verna takes over the Chair.)

Okay. Thank you, Madame Chair.

You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilman Ortiz.

Thank you, Madame Chair. Commissioner, welcome. Welcome to Philadelphia. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Thank you.

I'm Chair of the Public Safety Committee, Commissioner. And sometimes, within the Department, we have asked for information. And, one, it has not been forthcoming. 2029 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY But then I see the same information in The Inquirer, and they publish these reports, and we haven't gotten that information. And it's quite embarrassing, as a matter of fact, when a newspaper is able to publish crime statistics, the deployment schedules, personnel, and where they're at before we in Council have even gotten that information. And I wonder if that's going to be a change, that we will get the information before The Inquirer or The Daily News gets it. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I think they're trying to deal with this problem down in Washington too, aren't they, these leaks of the press? That's a problem over there with that crew. I don't know how you stop that. I mean, for example, I think I said earlier that I am looking for about a 45-day window. I don't want to drip things out drips and drabs. I would like to come out with a comprehensive plan with some strategies. But I can't do this all by myself and I'm going to have some staff members that will be 2030 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY helping me out. And they've got friends over there. And so, even though I will try and not leak it myself, I know -- I know human nature. Bits and pieces will drip out, and you'll be upset that, Listen, I didn't get it first. Well, it's not because we didn't give it to you first. When you wind up dealing with -- once you deal with more than one person, it's no longer a secret. It's a --

Commissioner, I don't mind the leaks. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Okay.

All I want is a response to letters that we send for information. You can leak it and they can have it -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

-- but we would like to have it. The same information that The Inquirer gets, the City Council would like to get at the same time or in an approximate time frame. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: But how would I -- if I didn't know about a leak, how would I get you the same information at the same time? That 2031 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY part, I'm not getting.

In a reasonable time frame, within a letter that goes to you for information -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

-- we would like a response. That had not been forthcoming. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Okay. Let me promise you here, where I can, with all due speed, respond to your requests, I promise you I will. But I don't know what those requests entail. For example, if you're looking -- and I'm not saying you. If the Council's looking for information that may be of a confidential nature regarding, I don't know, investigations into police corruption or whatever it would be, I can tell you right now, that's not going to be forthcoming. I mean, it's a -- there are certain things that can't. Now, does that mean that The Philadelphia Inquirer or The Daily News didn't get a leak? They may get a leak 'cause there's more than one person working on different things. As much as humanly possible to get you 2032 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY the information as fast as humanly possible, we will do it. In those situations where it can't be done, I or one of my designees will get back to the Council and explain why we can't do it].

That we expect. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

We would expect information along those lines. As you go around the community, you will hear a longing for a time long past in which there was no crime in the City of Philadelphia and we had an abundance of police. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

I don't think such a time existed in my period of my lifetime here, but you will hear that and you will here a call for personnel, go back to the yesterdays of 8,000 police. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

And while having the most antiquated department in terms of technology in probably any of the largest cities in the country. Balancing personnel vis-a-vis 2033 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY technology, how do we do that? Because right now we have a per capita by personnel in a police department as large as New York, and we're going to take it along those lines. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

But we don't have, I don't believe, the technology within the system across the board that is needed. So you're going to have to make decisions. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

A thousand more cops -- because there's only a finite amount of money -- or more technology. How do we balance that? How would you begin to look at that situation? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well, that's a good question, and I'm glad you brought it up because much has been made regarding technology in the NYPD. I'm here to knock that down because the famous Compstat process up in New York is still, for want of a better term, is still antiquated in terms of technology. It isn't anything that's centralized. Those are 76 individual PC's that track crime on a 2034 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY daily basis at the individual precincts. And then it's literally hand-delivered down on a daily basis or weekly base, down to headquarters. All of the great promises that have been made -- and I find this everywhere I go, every country I go when it comes to policing. All of the great promises that have been made to police officials regarding technology, very few of them have been met. That's number one. Number two, the idea that somehow technology frees up people for patrol is absolute nonsense. The reverse is true. The more technology, often the more people you need to drive the technology, the inputting. What the technology allows you to do, it gives you better information faster so you can make better, more informed decisions. But the idea that somehow technology frees up people, whether it's in policing or somewhere else, if you find somebody that's truthful, that's honest with you, they'll tell you no, that's just what the salesmen tell you when they sell you the product, when they're selling you this great system for a few million dollars, you know. 2035 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY It hasn't happened in New York and it hasn't happened in any other major police department that I've visited over the last two years, whether it's Ireland, England, Birmingham, Alabama, Buenos Aires, New Zealand. And New Zealand, by the way, made a critical decision which, of course, now they're forced to face up to, which, of course, they're not going to face up to because as soon as he faces up to it, he's lost his job. But they bought this system for about, I don't know, 30 million pounds and promised it would take 500 less officers. Well, he's got 500 less officers and he's got a system that he needs another 300 officers to run. So now he's down 800 officers, and he's afraid to come forward. You've got to be real careful with what you say and do and buy regarding technology. It's great. As I say, it helps us do our job better, it gives us better information and the whole bit, but as far as freeing people up, that is not necessarily true. It doesn't mean you won't be able to find certain situations in small units where we 2036 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY had four or five people doing it, now the computer can do it with one or two. That's not what I'm talking about. What I'm saying is overall, technology, it takes a lot more people to do it.

You made the headlines of tomorrow's newspaper in terms of the charter change. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

And in terms of the structure. But in today's Inquirer, domestic violence, there's a story that it leads to the reason why women are killed in this City. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I read that article, yeah.

In Philadelphia, we instituted a Domestic Violence Response Team in each division. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Mm-hmm, right.

What's your opinion of that approach? And how would you approach the issue the domestic violence? I know that you have to study what we have before you make a point of it. 2037 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

I think in New York City, it's probably the same reason, but I'd like to find out what the experience is. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well, fortunately, I -- again, I mentioned earlier about an area of expertise, I mentioned about police shootings. And another one would be domestic violence. I was the architect of the NYPD's domestic policy. For the last year and a half, I served as the Vice Chair of Governor Pataki's Commission on Domestic Violence, where we went around, it was a ten-person commission, and we went around the State of New York, conducting hearings up in Buffalo, Schenectady. We even went to the Bedford Correctional Facility where we had hearings all day, where we interviewed women that are there who killed their spouses. Some real, real tragic cases. And, of course, three or four months ago, we presented a report to the Governor regarding what we thought was needed, not just in the policing but what the service agencies 2038 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY throughout the state needed to do vis-a-vis domestic violence. And so, I think, my bona fides on the whole issue of domestic violence, I think, are well established. And, again, as I said to Councilperson Fernandez earlier, we can do lots of things all at the same time. We can chew bubble gum and walk at the same time. Not just two or three things, we can do lots of things at the same time. One of the things coming out will be a domestic violence -- if the one we have here right now, the program, the strategy right here is fine, great. If it needs to be improved upon, we will improve upon it. And the only caveat I offer on domestic violence -- and this really should send the criminologists and the people who do the great thinking on these issues. New York City has had -- and I can't speak about the rest of the nation, but I can speak about New York City. New York City has had a tremendous decrease in homicides, over 60 percent over the last couple of years. So the drug-related 2039 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY homicides have down, the robbery homicides have gone down. But the one that hasn't gone down are the domestic violence homicides. Interesting enough, even though we have these sophisticated strategies, we have at least one domestic violence officer, or in some cases, depending on the precinct or the district, we have three. We have a domestic violence detective assigned to every detective squad that handles nothing but domestic violence. So we have all of these -- at least in the Police Department -- institutional efforts set up. We have a pro-arrest policy, a must-arrest policy. In this situation we've removed as much discretion as possible from the first responding officers. We have done almost everything that the experts in this area say must be done. And yet, we still haven't had an effect on domestic violence homicides. Now whether that's because -- and my sense is -- I mean, I'm not sure how much more the police can do, because in some respects, in some respects, the policing end of this domestic 2040 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY violence issue is probably the easiest. Because we have just developed, lock up the guy, and that's it. I mean, I'm only using "guy" because most of the time, it's the man beating the woman, let's not kid ourselves. It could be he or she, no, it's the man beating the woman. Our part is relatively easy because we lock them up. The hard part now is for the DA's and the judges and a whole host of service providers, issues that I'm not about to take on as far as what's the right sentence and things of that nature. We do know when we look at -- when we do the analysis of the homicides, the domestic violence homicides, it isn't that the man woke up one day and decided to kill wife. There's usually a history of intervention, whether on the part of police, the courts, the prosecutors. They are often existing or orders of protection have just expired.

So it isn't that we didn't know about it early on and that there was a lack of intervention on the part of authorities, whether 2041 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY it's the police or the courts. But it is -- in my opinion, it's something that needs to be studied further because it's -- as I said, the New York -- and my sense is -- if you looked around the rest of the nation, my sense would be the same. While we may have succeeded in knocking down drug homicides and all the rest of them, a whole bunch of homicides, we haven't been as successful in the domestic violence homicides.

Commissioner, we would all like to strive for a department that is as diverse and looks as much as the City looks. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Mm-hmm.

And we've had problems in this City achieving that goal. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

And part of the reasons is the recruitment aspects and also the aspects in terms of once the individual passes the exam, the polygraph, and other road blocks that are put in the way that really impede at times the recruitment of minorities and women and some other folks into the Department, are you going to look 2042 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY at that? The polygraph is one that really is, I think, outmoded and not used in most departments across the United States and manages to knock out a tremendous percentage of minority and young men and women from the recruitment and the police process. Are you going to look at that in terms of hiring, recruitment, and retaining? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well, let me address this philosophically first. I am committed to having, as much as humanly possible, a diverse police force that reflects the population it serves -- for very selfish reasons. It just makes my job a lot easier, it's just a lot easier if you have it that way. It's just -- trust me, having gone through the system. The benefits of having a diverse police force are numerous. Regarding Philadelphia and its recruitment strategies, I will look at that. I've actually spoken to some people on it. I will be looking at that whole issue because I firmly 2043 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. , college requirements and things of that nature -- without necessarily having a disparate impact on any minority group or females. That if you broaden and you actively and you aggressively set up a recruitment system, a recruitment unit that goes out and that does it in a smart fashion, and I mean using not just the airwaves, but going into the schools, going to the college. And, of course, there is an issue here. There's an issue here which I'm sure will be debated in Council regarding the appropriateness of retiring a one-year residency prior to taking a police officer exam. I would suggest to you that -- my personal opinion on this is that that may be too restrictive. I mean, you're automatically eliminating army bases and things of that nature. We in the NYPD had actively recruited, especially when they were downsizing. I mean, you have trained professionals, people that are well 2044 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY disciplined, have come up -- well, in their case, a military organization. The Police Department's a semi-military organization. They have -- they've cut the mustard, they've been through it all. You have a ready-made office, if you will, that just needs now some adaptation to civilian life and the laws surrounding civilian life. I think it's a ready- made pool. The other thing, Philadelphia is located between two major cities: Washington and New York. And I would not be adverse to going up to New York or going down to Washington, to the schools there, and recruiting. Well, people say, Well, you know, they're going to flood us. Well, they're not going to flood you with applicants from Washington and New York. However some of the applicants that you would get from Washington and New York, by virtue of fact that they were willing to move to Philadelphia already says something about those individuals, that they're willing to uproot their homes and leave their families and come live in 2045 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY Philly. It says something about their initiative. Now, I understand that there are all sorts of problems and parochial concerns, and I understand all of that. But I'm just giving you my personal opinion on this, that we may be, with the system that's set up now, unnecessarily narrowing the pool of potential candidates. And the bigger the pool, the better the candidates. And I think you can do it. You can do it right and you can get raise the bar, you can raise qualifications, education requirements, without having any disparate impact on any minority or group and minority representation.

And the other administrative aspects that once you're in the process, once you're in the pipeline, that there are instruments within that process that serve to really knock out a lot of individuals. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Exactly. I will look -- I am -- look, Councilman I will be looking at all of that. I am very keenly aware and I am very sensitive to those issues you've raised.

Thank you. Thank you, Madame Chair. 2046 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY

You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Miller.

Good afternoon, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Good afternoon, ma'am.

Okay, a couple -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: My god, we're almost there, you're right. We've got a minute to go and it's afternoon.

Right. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Time flies.

Definitely.

I have a question alone the line of community policing 'cause I'm still not really sure. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

I think you said you didn't really support it -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Come on.

-- or you weren't really crazy about it. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: No, I never said 2047 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY that.

Okay. Well, anyway, this is what I want to know. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

Are you committed to keeping and not closing any mini stations, stationary mini stations, mobile mini stations, bike officers, beat officers? Okay? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

All right, that's good. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Is that a question?

Yeah. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Okay, let me answer it. I am committed to keeping -- I understand the benefits of mobile stations and mini stations, I understand all that and I support them, there's no problem. The caveat that I offer up -- and I will be out there riding, I will be out there riding. The caveat that I offer up to people who say, Well, you know, that's great to have that place there. So long as it doesn't become a 2048 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY hangout.

Right, I understand. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: That was my only concern there. Bicycle cops, well, you may have read somewhere that I'm a bit of a physical education nut. I love the bike cops. I took the bike program in the New York City Police Department from about 90 cops to a hundred cops. I think we're at about 700 now. I ride the bikes myself, so I'm all for that. I mean, I think the cops look better, the community relate much better to it. The notion that I don't support community policing is just wrong. I do. I mean, I've got --

Well, I didn't that you emphatically didn't support it. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: No. 22

But you said it should be up to the police -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: No, no, no. 25

-- and not the 2049 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY citizens. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: No, I was talking about -- it's amazing how when I'm not careful with my language or I'm not very precise with language, if you know what I mean, you can be misinterpreted. What I was saying was -- and I was talking, by the way, about New York City, that there were at least two or three neighborhoods in New York City that had had a bad experience with the police.

I hear you. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: That had lost confidence in the police as a result of corruption and drug dealing and shootings.

Right. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: They had no 19 faith in the police and were not about to help the police. And I understand that. And there were other neighborhoods -- I mentioned one in Queens, a middle-class area of Queens, an African-American area, but where it was basically middle class, where a woman who had come forward had been killed by drug dealers. 2050 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY If you're a police official in that area, you better expect that the people are going to be very hesitant to come forward. Some police chiefs say, Well, you know, if the don't come forward, we can't do our jobs so we're going to pack up and go home. Well, that's nonsense. If the community can't come forward and help out a whole variety of legitimate reasons, then it's up to the police to go into those neighborhoods and take them back and make sure that citizens of the community can come forward and help out the police and become the eyes and ears. But you can't use as an excuse -- which some do, not all, some do -- that will say, Well, you know, my community is not together so that's why I can't get my job done. Well, that's -- I mean, you're looking for any excuse. And when you look for an excuse, you'll find it. There are plenty of excuses. And it's just something that, as I travel around the country, I've met different chiefs and I go to conferences. I hear every once in a while and it bothers me. 2051 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY But I probably shouldn't have brought it up because it's been misinterpreted, that I don't support community policing --

Well -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: -- when I'm just trying to be as frank as possible.

Right. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Unfortunately, as I lectured somebody the other day, my language wasn't very precise.

Right. Well, see, I don't think it was so much misinterpreted. I just didn't fully understand. Because as I hear you talk, I think what you describe as community police and what I see happening in the neighborhoods sometimes can be very different. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

For instance, do you think anti-drug marches are effective? Have they worked in other places across the country, pretty much impacting the open-air drug markets? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

'Cause those, to 2052 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY me, seem to be the hardest operations to shut down. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Okay, let me -- let's take it out of Philadelphia, let's take it out of New York, let's take it out of America. Because it's a great question about marches. In my hometown of Dublin, Ireland, it's a town that is now, in certain areas, has been overrun by drugs. Very, very surprising. The police there -- I think they're a lot better now. But back then, about three or four years ago, I don't think the police were very effective. There was a reporter who did an expose on the drug lords, and she was killed, she was executed, six bullets to the head. It looked like the police did not have the whole issue of drugs under control. The women, the police officers of Dublin, in some of these areas, especially in the housing developments, were so upset that they wanted these marches. They went to known crack houses and things like that. And while that's -- you know, it's good to see the folks are agitated and are rallying 2053 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY around and are demanding that these drug dealers be ousted, the problem was predictable what was going to happen. Certain members of the IRA, the Irish Republican Army, which is an outlawed group, joined these marchers and took it upon themselves to do what the police couldn't and wouldn't and shouldn't do. They went in and acted as vigilantes; killed some of the drug dealers, kneecapped 'em. And, hopefully, it never gets to that. But when police departments don't perform, when police departments don't meet expectations, you have what you have in Dublin. You have mothers marching and then you have people with agendas who don't care and vigilante groups, and they will go after the drug dealers and they will beat them up and kill them. And then, you know, they always take it a step further. They wind up killing somebody else. They say, Well, you know, I thought he was a drug dealer. And when you have vigilante justice, you have no justice. And so, in the main, while it sounds 2054 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY great having marches against crack houses and things like that and it looks like there's great community support, and I understand it and I understand the frustration, we've got to be real, real careful when we march down that block literally and figuratively. Hopefully, that we in the Philadelphia Police Department do a much more effective job, that those marches are not necessary, but we still need your support, you know, your eyes and ears, meetings, telling us what's going on in the neighborhoods, giving us suggestions. But the whole idea of marches, which may, you know, lead to the next step, vigilante groups, is troubling for me. And the experience, especially in Dublin, but even in other parts of this country, have been, in the main, pretty bad.

Okay, I have two more questions. While you're examining things in the Police Department, can you also examine if we can possibly get additional school crossing guards? I think we are funded for a thousand, we might need about 1200 or more. 2055 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

And the next question is around deployment. Right now -- in late 1997, a directive was set out in not all police districts but a few, or at least two that I know of. And that's regarding the deployment of police officers in public and parochial schools. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

Evidently, there was some policy put together when Kevin Tucker was Police Commissioner ten years ago, I guess. But here in Philadelphia, the police have been deployed to public and parochial schools where violence, incidents of violence are high, as a crime prevention strategy and one of dealing with the crimes, period, for at least to 30 18 years. 19 I know they were in there in the 20 1970s. My mother used to volunteer up there. And they've been all comprehensive high schools. People have said that police are not deployed to schools except in the northwest, in my district, which is the 14th and the 39th. But that is not true. 2056 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY And I understand now there's going to be a team of people from the School District, the Police Department, and other groups meeting between now and June. Because by September of '98, the police will be totally out of the schools. I just want to make sure that whatever's going to happen in one place will happen everywhere at the same time, and that the voices of the parents, the students, and the district administrators are heard, and they're also going to be absolutely included in this group that will be meeting for the next six months to figure out the policy. Did you have police in schools, deployed inside the schools? Some of these are inside and some are out. The question is inside, in New York. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

What were your methods to deal with that whole violence issue? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: They had -- in lots and lots of schools, outside, there were police officers. Then we had some officers inside 2057 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY that were involved in the drug education end and different programs, DARE, and a few others. Right now, there is a debate going on up in New York regarding the New York City Police Department and school safety officers. Now I don't know if -- do they have school safety officers there? Yeah, the school safety officers, at least in New York City, they're like a mini police department, they have over 3,000 school safety officers. There is a debate going on right now between the Mayor and members of the Board of Education and Chancellor Rudy Crew regarding adding New York City police officers either in a supervisory capacity or in an advisory capacity to school safety officials. That goes on. I understand people's concern. I mean, we did some -- not polling, I wouldn't call it. But the papers had done some polling early in 1993 or 1994 of school-aged children and regarding their perception of crime and dealing with crime. And the things they feared most of all were not in the neighborhoods, not where they 2058 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY live. It was going to and from school. I mean -- and then some of them feared even in the school. Well, if you're worried about going to and from school, and then some of them are worried in school, the whole idea of getting an education, which should be the number-one priority, all of a sudden takes a second or third priority. But there are some folks, there are some parents, there are some civil-liberties types that object to having armed officers in the schools. I understand that. But it's an issue that as far as Philadelphia, I am not familiar thoroughly with it. I am familiar with the issues surrounding it; I am not fully familiar with the Philadelphia model. It will clearly be one of the things we'll discuss over the next couple of weeks. What are we doing, should we improve upon it, should we add to it, what's the best way. But the whole idea, as I mentioned earlier, of schools and truancy programs will be central to what we do.

Okay, thank you. 2059 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY Thank you, Madame Chair.

Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Rizzo.

Welcome, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Thank you.

The school safety officers, they are the School District Police Department that, in my opinion and in a lot of other people's, they should have some police power that they don't necessarily have. And I don't know what's wrong with this mike. Commissioner, in reference to the recruiting from outside the Philadelphia area for police officers, that leads me to ask a question about your inner circle, your top commanders. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

Councilman Rizzo, excuse me, you're not being heard. (Councilman Rizzo adjusts his microphone.)

Can you hear me now? 2060 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY

That's much better. Thank you.

Do you plan on recruiting any of your inner circle, the top commanders of the Philadelphia Police Department, from outside? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I have absolutely no comment on that whatsoever.

No comment? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

Okay. Let's talk about the structure of the Philadelphia Police Department presently from patrol officer to detective to corporal sergeant, your quick look at that. In many police departments, corporals are street supervisors. In Philadelphia, they're historically inside people. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

Do you believe, from your first look at that organization chain of command that we have too many of layers of management? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I don't -- I 2061 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY really don't buy into the theory that an awful lot of people are proponents of, you know reducing the wedding cake layer. Military organizations and semi-military organizations such as police departments are -- you know, there's a military structure to them. Looking at the Philadelphia Police Department, its structure, its hierarchy, above the rank of captain, you basically have inspector and chief inspector, and that's kind of it. In the New York City Police Department, you've got deputy inspector, inspector, deputy chief, assistant chief, super chief. So there are about seven -- where there are two here above the rank of captain, there are seven in the NYPD before you get to the chief of the department, the first deputy commissioner, and the commissioner. It's not -- I mean, the structure has to make sense, obviously. But it's also the function that they perform, that you have the right people in the right places. So I'm not as concerned with the hierarchy as I am with the structure, if that makes sense. 2062 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY There are two things. One is the personnel hierarchy, from police officer straight up to deputy commissioner, that's the personnel hierarchy. But how the department is structured, how the organization structure looks right now will be very different in 45 days.

Commissioner, my final question and, I'm sure, one you can answer. Do you like the color of the police cars? (Laughter.) COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Actually, you know, I keep hearing about this poor Philadelphia fleet. I mean, I've been around the country. This fleet looks fine to me. I mean, haven't seen the backup fleet, but the fleet here, it really looks good. Now, having said that, I know there's an issue of accidents, which, again, remember the chewing bubble gum and walking at the same time? We will be dealing with the issues of R&P accidents and how we can reduce those.

Thank you, Commissioner. Welcome again. 2063 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Thank you.

Thank you, Madame Chair.

Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Mariano.

Thank you, Madame Chair. Commissioner, I have a couple questions. Last week I had the pleasure of riding for eight hours with a highway line unit. And it reminded me of when Councilman Ortiz talked about the good old days in Philadelphia. When I was -- I got out of high school in 1973, I'm 42 years old. So if there was any mischief, I'm not admitting to anything, it would have been done after I got out of high school.

Councilman, Councilman, I'm sorry. I don't mean to interrupt you, but we can't hear you, the stenographer cannot hear you.

Can we buy a new PA system? 'Cause it's on the same place that it's always on, Madame Chair.

Well, I don't know 2064 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY whether we're having a problem or --

Okay, you got it up now, Reg? If they were union, we wouldn't have this problem. Just so you know. In the seventies, I'm not admitting to anything, but when I would have been hanging on the corner -- my brother did a lot of -- more corner lounging than I did. In highway patrol, there was to men in the car, and they were unmarked police cars. Now it seems that we've beefed up highway patrol after decimating that unit in the last ten years. And there's people and they're proud and they're saluting each other and their esprit de corps is very catchy. I mean, I saluted Councilman Kenney next time I seen him. I mean, it was that catchy. But when I asked about the highway having unmarked cars, it was like, No, we don't want to go that way with policing anymore. I think a lot of people in the line units would like to see unmarked cars for the obvious reason that it's the stealth mode, just to be able to ride 2065 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY into situations. 'Cause they're strictly clearing out corners. That night I was with them, they got a stolen car, a sawed-off shotgun, two 10-year-old's walking down Broad Street at 12:10 at night. I mean, it was a great experience, it was a great experience. They could have been done more if they'd have been in unmarked cars like they'd have been in the seventies. How do you feel about that? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I think -- listen, policing in some respects is always a balancing act. I mean, there are concerns that we in management have regarding our responsibilities to supervise, manage, and control police. You think that and balance it with what I think is the more bag of tricks we have, as I mentioned earlier, I do not subscribe to the theory of policing of put a cop on every block and that's going to solve every crime. It may make you feel better, but sometimes you're going -- if it's high corner narcotics location, you're going to need cops well 2066 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY supervised, well trained, in plain clothes, to go in and take out those blocks. The more we can mix the strategies and how we go about them, the tools that we use, the better off we'll be. I will make the overall judgments regarding that in kind of a broad spectrum. But I'm going to leave that largely up to the district commanders. Whatever they think they need to do regarding crime and disorder and getting into community concerns, they should do. But know, know at the end of the day that I'm going to hold them accountable. So they better not do anything that's foolish or stupid. They better have the whole idea of serving the community, crime, reducing disorder, the fear of crime, have that in mind. And whatever you need to do that -- while at the same time handling our commitments to 911, that you do it. But it's silly for Timoney or anybody like me -- let me get this right -- down at the round house, to be dictating individual strategies for individual neighborhoods. Let's leave that up to the district commanders. I will hold them 2067 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY accountable, but we've got to rely on them. And the community -- there's no sense for community groups. I will meet with all community groups. But if they've got complaints, do me a favor, deal with the district first. If the district fails, then, by all means, come see me, because I need to know that also. But that's the issue we will be trying to develop now over the next couple of months and -- I hate that word, but it's a descriptive word -- empowering the police, the district commanders to go out and try a whole variety of things. One final thing, then I'll shut up. I think the one thing learned from the New York model -- and, by the way, it took us about a quarter of a century to get it right. So it isn't like New York is always so bright. I mean, we really messed up much more than we produced good things, but we eventually got it right by tinkering.

But where we really did get it right was this whole idea of devolving responsibility down, not down to the cop. They're really not that sophisticated, they're really not. But down 2068 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY to the commander level, the district commander, and holding them responsible and giving them extra resources and training and equipment that they need to run their districts, and then to hold them accountable. D. have been up there and have seen it. When I used to sit in Compstat, I was considered a pretty smart guy, a street cop, knew everything. I would sit there and listen to these district commanders, and I would be embarrassed because they would come up with solutions to problems, whether they got the solutions from community meetings or from just a cop on the beat. And I knew if I sat here for a hundred years, I could have never thought of that. But when we let them loose, their creative juices, their energy, their initiative, and then off to the side, when they get off center stage, they tell you the truth. Oh, you know, by the way, it was a community leader that came up with that idea or it was a cop on the beat that about that. It was amazing. 2069 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY But that whole process of getting them involved, I think, worked tremendously.

Commissioner, along those lines, last week I introduced a resolution urging the Philadelphia Police Department to look into a pilot program that worked down at the 19th Police District. And basically what it is is a pilot program where the Police Department had two off-road vehicles, to crack down on the illegal use of ATVs and dirt bikes up in my district, where most of the drugs are. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

I mean, they ride down the street and give the finger to a patrol car, knowing they can't pursue 'em. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

I have a captain in the 15th who -- I was there Sunday. He got two off-road vehicles with cars. It's amazing. Now, the magic or the bad word is "pursuit." There was no pursuit; they just figured out how to catch 'em in an area they couldn't get out. 2070 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

How do you feel about something like that? Is that along the same line, if it works in that district and that captain's okay with it -- and we have to get this -- you know, it costs some money to buy these 250 (unintelligible). COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well, no. In other words, if dirt bikes, if that becomes -- and I know they've very noisy and loud. Those are quality-of-life issues.

Right. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: And if the neighborhoods are up in arms with this stuff, I mean, it's not like some other City agency is going to respond; the police have to respond to the -- if this becomes a neighborhood concern, the police obviously have to respond. Whether it's dirt bikes, motor bikes, speeding cars, which can kill people, the police have to respond. But you had said that, well, they obviously can't chase them or pursue them. But there are other ways of skinning a cat, and leave 2071 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY it up to the cops. They will figure it out, you know. And the only thing I demand is that they do it lawfully.

And it is up to the cops. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

This idea came from two cops. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah. Well then, great.

I mean, but maybe everything will change. I mean it's amazing that two cops need to bring this to a City Councilman to get it heard. It would be nicer to bring to a captain. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Absolutely. I think one of the benefits of the whole Compstat process -- I mean, I grew up in the NYPD. And, you know, I was a cop and a detective up in the South Bronx for 12 years, and then I was a sergeant in Harlem. I never saw the Police Commissioner or the First Deputy Commissioner or any of those big 2072 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY chiefs. My God, they would never -- you wouldn't see them, they clearly would never talk to you, you never see them. Part of the Compstat process is they're involved, they're actively involved, they're there. And so now these captains and lieutenants and sergeants get to show off in front of the Commissioner and the command staff, to show their mettle. Hey, listen, look at what great a job I'm doing. And some also get to show what a great job they're not doing and get dealt with accordingly. But, by and large, it's a very, very, I think, positive experience. I mean, you get to come down and meet the top brass and get issues like that before them.

And it is a big issue because we spend -- I spend a lot of money in my district on rec. centers, and they ride right across the, you know, the freshly tilled ground, you know, the ground that was just taken care of. And my last question. We've had a lot of problems, and we've made great leaps and bounds with prostitution arrests. 2073 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Mm-hmm.

Councilman Kenney, DiCicco, and Rizzo and I gave some awards out at the 24th District last night. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

Two officers, a female officer and a male officer, from 5 Squad and 7 Squad had had 450 -- Deputy Commissioner, what's your name again? Zapile, I keep forgetting it. Italian names are hard. But they had 450 arrests on these kind of crimes. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

Our problem is when it gets warm, they'll be back. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

No doubt they'll be back 'cause the captains and the inspectors tell me, Look, Rick, this was always a good area for prostitution under the el. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

And it's a big issue to us. But we need to do other things, and some of us around here -- Councilman Kenny -- 2074 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY we've talked till we're blue in the face to get these vehicles, we want to say, "confiscated," but we don't want to be mean. Just take their cars for safekeeping until they -- until they're done going through the process of the johns. How do you feel about that? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well, the -- if you limit yourself to any one strategy -- for example, okay, I'm just going to lock up the prostitute and that's it. Trust me, the prostitute will be back the next day, and it will go on. There are a variety of ways of skinning a cat, whether it's vehicle confiscation, whether it's using reverse -- in other words, using female police officers acting as prostitutes and locking up the johns. There are all sorts of ways of dealing with this issue. The thing that I reject out of hand is the whole idea that some will purport that somehow prostitution is a victimless crime and the cops should get away from it. That's absolute nonsense. I've spent the last six months, one 2075 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY week a month for the last six months, going back to last June, in Brazil, where prostitution is legal. Well, it's not legal, it's not illegal, so it's okay. But their big concern down there now is prostitutes are getting younger and younger and younger. They're down around 13, 12. They become a bit of a tourist attraction for European tourists. But then, in the process, the European tourists are getting doped and robbed and all sorts of other stuff. So the idea that somehow, if we legalize prostitution, that there will be no 15 problems, you decriminalize it, then there are no 16 crime problems is absolute nonsense. And I'll just give you one other thing, which was kind of an eye opener to me. Late in my clear, I was the commanding officer of Chinatown, Little Italy, Soho, that whole lower-end area of Manhattan. And I had a meeting with some of my community residents early on, upon taking office. And there was one part of the precinct that was mainly, I guess, textile manufacturing. And at nighttime, there were prostitutes there, 2076 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY but it was a trucking area, it had been kind of accepted and, you know, kind of out of sight, out of mind. Nobody made a big deal of it. But this woman -- parent came to me and said, You know, it's really disgraceful up there. My kids have to go -- and it's not only one strip. When they're going to school and the prostitutes are out there at or in the afternoon -- I said, No, no, they're out there at night. She said, Listen to me, listen to me, they're out there now. So I went up, and sure enough, I mean, scantly clad, but not like one or two; there were like eight or nine of them. And there's a school on the corner, and these kids have to walk past them. So being the very cool-headed commander that I was, I went nuts, and we had cops up there trying to clean up that condition. I mean, it was bad enough at night, it's a trucking area, but during the daytime. . . I mean, you know, you can argue all you want that it's a victimless crime, that's absolute nonsense. 2077 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY

Thank you, Commissioner. No further questions, Madame Chair.

The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Clark.

Mr. Timoney, with respect to confiscation or taking your car under safekeeping or whatever means by which this taking occurs, we must always be mindful of the law and make sure that we don't do an unlawful taking. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Oh, absolutely.

So that sometimes we get really gung ho and enthusiastic about taking clearing up a problem, and prostitution is a problem. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right, right.

But nothing permits us to suspend civil rights. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Absolutely.

So we have to be very careful that we don't encourage you to do vigilante kinds of things. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

You can't rename 2078 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY an unlawful taking "taking a car into safekeeping." You either have a lawful right, with a probable cause to do so. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right, absolutely.

Or you don't. So please do not think that we are going to encourage you to take extralegal methods. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: You could encourage me all you want, but my operating philosophy is as follows: You cannot break the law, you enforce the law.

Right. Sir, you and I are going to get along just fine. (Laughter.)

I'm the one on City Council who is constantly referring to and reminding people that civil rights cannot be granted or abridged. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Exactly.

And that you cannot rename an act and give it some high, lofty title, and at the same time, step on an individual, Constitutionally-protected civil 2079 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY right. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: We have no 4 disagreement whatsoever.

Thank you, sir. Thank you, Madame Chair.

Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Tasco.

Commissioner, we have been working a lot with the domestic violence groups here in Philadelphia. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yes, ma'am.

And what kind of training do you consider crucial to police officers in handling domestic violence cases? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah. I'm sorry, I addressed this whole issue a little earlier. I don't know if you were here. I will look at what is --

Oh, okay. That's okay. If you answered that, I'll read the testimony. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah, 'cause I consider not bragging, but it's really an area of 2080 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY expertise. I was just served on the Governor's Commission from last year, up in New York, I was the architect of the NYPD's domestic violence policies. I am intimately familiar with the issues involved. So I would look -- again, it's an area that I know and I know it inside out. So I would look at the Philadelphia Police Department's policy. If it's good, we'll keep. If it needs to be improved, we'll improve it. If it needs to be changed and thrown out, we'll change it and throw it out and come up with something new. But, again, that will be one of the main things coming out.

Just one. Will police officers be able to track repeat offenders so that we can monitor them -- repeat offenses so that we can monitor the offender? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Again, I am not sure of what are the technological capabilities resident right now within the Philadelphia Police Department or within the Philadelphia justice system. 2081 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY I will look at all of that. Ideally -- for the issues, for example, surrounding whether it's misdemeanor crimes, where somebody might be eligible for what's called in New York "a desk appearance ticket" or a summons. You don't want to be giving those things out Willy-nilly to people who've got prior criminal convictions or prior arrests. Or, as we used to do up in New York, you're giving a summons to somebody who's failed to appear for the last 12 summonses. 13 And so, what it does is, it really 14 breeds contempt for the system. But it turns the 15 already-cynical police force into an even more cynical police force. So, for example, in New York City, they called them "DATs," desk appearance tickets which were issued by the sergeant to go to court. It's the desk appearance tickets. The cops refer to them as "the disappearance tickets," because they would just get 'em and disappear, nobody ever showed up. So -- but I don't know if what we have on hand here, either in the Police Department or 2082 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY within the whole criminal justice system, to track repeat offenders. But that's an extremely important part of any policy, going out and dealing with -- especially with the chronic crimes.

Thank you. Thank you, Madame Chair.

You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilman Cohen.

Thank you, ma'am Chair.

Councilman, before you ask your questions, I would just like to make a statement. Because we're running so far behind on our schedule, the Public Defenders Office and the District Attorney's Office will be rescheduled. Their testimony will not be heard today. Both those offices will be rescheduled.

What was the first one?

Public Defender.

Public Defender.

And the District 2083 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY Attorney'S Office. (Some applause.) (Laughter.)

Councilman Cohen, thank you.

Thank you, Madame Chair. Welcome, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Thank you, sir.

And I don't say welcome to all of the new people that come into assumed posts in Philadelphia. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: So I'm privileged, I assume.

But I do say welcome to you, sir. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Thank you.

What it will be three months from now, neither you or anybody else can assess. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Oh, we'll get along great.

But, I do have the sense that you're thinking about all of the 2084 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY problems and that you are not closed to discussion on almost any issue --. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Absolutely.

-- if that issue is one that a member of this body feels ought to be raised. And I commend you for that. Let me start, though, with one disagreement. I think, unless I misheard you, I think I heard you say that you hate the word "empowerment." Did I hear you say that? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: You know, the reason I said it is 'cause so many people use it. It's like anything else. They use it, they overuse it. So it's become, you know -- even though it's very descriptive, it's become overused. And that's why --

Okay. Well, it happens to be one of my favorite words. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Cool. Hey, listen. . .

So there's a diversity of opinion on that, and that's because, I think, in the community, you're only successful in getting the kind of support you need from the 2085 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY community if the people respond. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

And if people are beaten down and feel there's no hope and nobody's interested in them, that life is just a terrible thing to have to live through, and they have no 8 respect for anybody, I think it adds to the crime, I think it prevents anything from working. So I just mention that, and that's why I like the word "empowerment." I think if people feel they are able to do something, they may not always be successful, but at least they're successful in trying and in using their God-given powers to try to achieve some kind of an end. Let me go up -- and now, one place where I do agree with you. We'll have it 50/50. You said that the ultimate test of success is how people feel about something. I think you were talking about some program in the Police Department at the time you said about it. And I think that's generally the case. I think if people feel good about the City, if they feel safe, because sometimes people feel safe when the statistics indicate they ought not to. 2086 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

And sometimes when the statistics indicate that they ought to feel safe, they don't, they feel terrified. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

So that, basically, we're trying to create what people understand or perceive to be a safe city in which they live. And so I think that analysis of yours, I'm in full agreement with. Now, on specific things. Do you think, say, six months from now or a year from now that people will feel safe in Philadelphia? Do you think they'll have that perception no matter what the statistics say? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yes. Because you've actually hit on a very good point. In New York, beginning as a result of this epidemic of crime in 1990, we wanted -- Mayor Dinkens went to City Council, they passed a special tax, and we hired -- oh, I don't know -- 6 or 7,000 additional police officers. It would be like taking the size of the Philadelphia Police Department and adding it to the NYPD. 2087 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY And it was great to have them, but people still felt unsafe, even though crime had actually started to go down. But there was a feeling that it was unsafe, they were not safe. And it's hard to understand why. But one of the things I came up with, and when I spoke to people, the best that I can come up is they love seeing police officers out there in uniform. And that works, you know, for a couple of days or two. And they see Timoney walking by and, you know, and he's having his coffee and he's walking by, but they don't see Timoney doing anything. So they like to see the cops, but they also like to see the cops doing something, getting out there, challenging drug dealers, moving them along. Not just walking by or the drug dealers, you know, stop plying their trade till the officer turns the corner and then continue. They want to see officers doing what officers are paid to do; going out there and confronting criminals; if it's a speeding car, pulling over the speeding car; chastising, or if necessary, giving a summons. 2088 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY So they don't want to just see police officers; they want to see police officers doing something. That's what they get paid for. There's nothing worse, there is nothing worse than when you speak to citizens, especially when they see cops in a patrol car, drive by -- and these gentlemen will attest to it, they hear it all the time -- drive by a drug location and do nothing. It sends all sorts of bad signals as well, like the cop doesn't care or the cop's getting paid off. And they are -- because the cop's not doing anything, they are allowed to come to any conclusion that they want to, all right? Whereas, if the police are out there confronting the drug dealers and other law breakers and doing their job, there's only one conclusion for the average citizen to reach: and that's the cops are doing their job. There is no other guessing game out there.

And, therefore, you feel that people in addition to feeling safe, there will be a corollary feeling of police presence being there? 2089 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Exactly. Because that's what make them feel safe.

Yes. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: It's not that I don't just to see them, I start to see them.

I agree with you, because, back in 1968, which was the first year I entered this body, I made speech after speech about the importance of what then -- we didn't have the notion then of community patrol, but of retaining beat officers. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

Because they were figures in the community. The community got to know them, they controlled the kids. The kids knew that sometimes they feared the police officer more than the father because the police officer might go to the father or the mother and create havoc with the youngster at home if the youngster acted wrongly. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

And I was kind of laughed away constantly, because there was new technology, the concept of motorized police. And 2090 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY they would be able to go through the community, you know, many more times. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

In fact, maybe they did, but nobody ever saw them, as you said, riding by where there were activities. They were, you know moving always, never stopped to do anything so we're heartened by your concept. Did you get a chance to make an analysis or have an analysis made of the Philadelphia Inquirer study of crime statistics that they reported about a week ago where they said they readjusted all of the statistics and they find that, in fact, Philadelphia's much safer than it was reported by statistics to be? In fact, it ranked very close to New York. And there was another city. Philadelphia was the third of the ten major cities in safety and not far removed from New York. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

And they did it with the same statistics. Instead of using the time when the police dealt with the problem, they used the time when the crimes actually occurred. 2091 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

And they found that in the last year and a half, Philadelphia's crime rate had dropped sharply. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

Did you see that study? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I saw it.

You may not be ready to comment on it now. But if you are, go ahead. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well -- you're right. Listen, I saw the study, and here's my only comment on it: I mentioned earlier that when I come in, I will do a complete audit, my own little audit, and I'm not going to give you the details of that. But there was a ten percent, I believe, decline in crime, and that's great. Anytime you have that, that's terrific. But, unfortunately, there wasn't a decline, a significant decline in homicides. There hasn't been any significant decline in homicides over the last six or seven years, both 2092 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY here in Philly and in Chicago and in maybe one or two other cities that I'm not aware of. But most major cities, New York, L.A., Houston, Dallas, the big ten, have all seen dramatic declines in homicides over the last four and five years. Why is Chicago and Philly not following the national trend? Those are some of the things we ought to look at. I don't know what the answer is, I know what the questions are, and I'll get the answers. That would be the difference between me and other people who know all the questions but not one answer.

Well, we have a part of an answer. Philadelphia and the state of Pennsylvania, within which Philadelphia is located, sometimes act strangely. For example, Philadelphia passed an anti-weapons law. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

The State legislature, in its great wisdom, thinking of the great rural areas that exist say we don't need it, we love to go hunting. 2093 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

And, therefore, we ought -- you know, I don't know why one relates to the other, but they said because we love to go hunting, when the hunting season opens, so much, we ought not have any controls on assault weapons. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

And they said Philadelphia doesn't have any special problems, just like the rural areas that we have. And so we're thwarted. And I understand the number of legally-issued weapons has tripled in the last year, year and a half since that Supreme Court decision. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

So you have a body here that will be ready to act in whatever way we can act to assist you in the problem of the homicides, but I think one of the real reasons for the homicides is fully attributable to the State legislature and to the Governor who apparently don't understand that different -- You even understand that different 2094 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY neighborhoods in one city may have entirely different problems that require different methods of dealing with it. But in the state of Pennsylvania, apparently overall, the legislature believes that we don't need any limitation on weapons. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well, I'm not going to make any jump to a direct or indirect correlation between what happened in Harrisburg and the homicide rate in Philadelphia. But what I will say is that people, they basically ought to be ashamed of themselves when they start -- underneath whatever the amendment is that covers the right to bear arms, the second or third, whatever one it is. The whole idea of wrapping everything in the right of hunters to somehow make a huge stretch and leap to AK-47's and 9-mm's and Intertechs and all this high-falutin' weaponry that drug dealers in these neighborhood are carrying, the people that make that argument up in Harrisburg just ought to be ashamed of themselves.

Well, to the credit of the -- 2095 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: And, by the way, not only are the citizens endangered, as we see on a daily basis, but also the police officers are endangered by these weapons, these automatic weapons. So, absolutely, there's no rhyme or reason or rational justification having to do with hunting and AK-47s and Intertech 9's and Uzzi submachine guns and all this other nonsense that goes on.

Well, to the credit of the Fraternal Order of Police here locally and to the Police Department, they did work very hard to try to get this limitation in Philadelphia through the court hurdles and through the legislative hurdles, but we all failed on that temporarily. But we hope to, down the road, again be renewing the battle. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well, let me just -- since I'm picking on Harrisburg, let me pick on some more. This is a national problem. So even if Harrisburg creates laws that interfere with the 2096 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY sale of these guns, a la New York, New York State, you still have other the states in this union. For example, the New York City Police Department confiscates between 16,000 and 18,000 guns, a variety, every year. And 95 percent of those guns from come from five southern states, all right? And we've had case after case -- while it's hard to get a gun in New York, you know, they've got lots of 'em. People are coming in and going to these different states where they've even set up residency requirements. So we had this gentleman last Christmas, a year ago last Christmas, come in from Palestine. He was a 72-year-old man, he got off the airplane, he went to Florida, the ink wasn't even dried on his passport. He checked into the No-Tell Motel, hung out there for three days, and then bought this gun, which he now took back to New York and shot eight people in the Empire State Building, and killing some kid that was up there visiting. This is a person that had just landed. The ink on the passport wasn't dry, and this guy, 2097 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY 72 years old, a Palestinian, could go down and get a gun in Florida. It's outrageous that that can go on in the states today. And these phony three-day waiting periods, I mean, it's just -- it's not just a Harrisburg problem, it's a national problem that has to be dealt with and dealt with seriously. But the NRA's got some pull, so we'll see.

Well, I think the President is indicating that he may push in the direction of a federal anti-assault-weapon bill or a control of weapons generally. Sir, in New York, when a person gets arrested -- and you said Philadelphia's in between Washington, D.C. and New York. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Geographically, yeah.

I asked you the question about New York. When a person is arrested, how long does it take for that person to go through preliminary processing and to get out on bail? Let's assume it's not a crime that's a 2098 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY very severe crime, so the person's going to get released on minimal bail. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well, the one has nothing to do with the other. Every person in New York City that's arrested, they go into what we call "the system," and we are under a court- ordered mandate that they must get to see a judge within hours. That's, you know. . . 10

The District of 11 Columbia, in an article I read several months ago 12 asserted that most people arrested are processed 13 within three and a half to four hours. 14 Have you ever had occasion to examine 15 that? Would you be interested if we get the 16 information from the District of Columbia? 17 COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well, I'd be 18 very suspicious of that data because I just know 19 just the police end of the process, and that's 20 doing reports and interviewing. Again, depending 21 on the crime, it would take at least three, four, 22 five hours. 23 Then the fingerprinting. For example, 24 in New York, the fingerprinting goes up to Albany and it takes -- the process has been speeded up or 2099 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY it can still take anywhere from 8, 10, hours before the prints come back. So if they're doing it in three and a half hours, I would want to know what exactly that process is. Does that mean that they are what they call "paper ready"? In other words, the prints are back and everything's done in three and a half hours? If that was the case, D.C. would be the model of efficiency. The last time I read, I don't think they were.

Mm-hmm, well, let me get into -- I'd like to send you the material on that. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah, absolutely.

Because I personally find it offensive that any one of us here could be arrested for what later turns out to be very minor or groundless charges and go through a kind of enforced one-day-in-jail process. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

And I just think we all owe a duty to speed up that process unless 2100 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY there are you know, difficulties, the kind that you cite that put actual limitations on it. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah. But, listen --

Our fingerprints, as far as I know, don't have to be sent outside of Philadelphia for checking. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Great.

So it can be done. It seems, from what we've seen, it just seems that there aren't enough people, you know, available, so that files have to wait for ours before they can looked at. But we can deal with that separately. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Listen, if you can speed it up, it's to everybody's benefit. But my sense is, those numbers, to me, sound absolutely incredible. So, okay --

What if we could do it in eight to ten hours? It would mean somebody might be arrested early in the morning and be out before dark in the summertime. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: But again --

That would be a real 2101 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY improvement. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah. Again, remember, it's not called "The Criminal Justice System" because it's the Criminal Justice Unit. It's system, so you have -- the police are just one end of it. And in some respects --

And the District Attorney. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: In some respects, the police end is actually the easiest end. I mean, it's the most dangerous end. But once we get 'em, I mean, then it's kind of somebody else's responsibility. You've got to wait for prints, the D.A. has to prepare the case, that's got to go before the judge. The judge has a calendar that the judge is going by. I mean, there's all sorts of folks involved.

Well, we have a system in which judges are available down at the Arraignment Court on a 24-hour basis. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

So they wouldn't be 2102 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY the problem. The District Attorney has a 24-hour charging unit available. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

All right, one last question. I wanted to a align myself with the question asked several hours ago by Councilwoman Blackwell. I'm very concerned by the proliferation of bills in this Council and throughout the country dealing with sidewalk behavior by people. And I heard your comments and have a sense that you're going to be look at it. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

I would hope that we're not going to have to deal with complaints against the police. I don't think the police ought to be turned into a social service agency or a police officer ought to be required to make some kind of an evaluation whether somebody is a mental case or not. But I think the failure of society in other areas that deal with homelessness shouldn't be result with the problem being bounced, you know, on the Police Department. 2103 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

And you're being directed by the rest of society TO get these folks out of our view. You know, if you can't do anything else, send them to a mental institution or send them to a prison somewhere. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: But, I mean, I've read the papers, I see the concerns. But we in policing, police officers on the ground, make decisions, judgments all day long. And while they're not making a critical observation regarding somebody's mental well-being, if an officer comes upon a person acting rather strange and obviously this person is strange and maybe a danger to himself or herself or to passersby, the whole bit, the officer has an obligation to take that person at least to a hospital to be checked out. I mean that stuff seems pretty basic to me. So I don't feel that -- do I want officers handling homelessness as the problem? Absolutely not. But at least in New York -- I'm not familiar with the homeless situation here. At 2104 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY least in New York, there's a certain segment that have basically, when they went under this, institutionalization program years ago, there 5 are a lot of people who are suffering a variety of 6 mental diseases who don't take their medication, a 7 whole host of stuff, that become a danger to 8 themselves or the members of the community. 9 And while police aren't doctors, they 10 are often the first point of intervention in the 11 system, and they just pick them up and, you know, 12 hand them off to the doctors or to the social 13 service people, whatever. 14 I don't think we have any disagreement, 15 but I wouldn't make -- talk about that in absolute 16 terms, because there are some situations, whether 17 it's homeless or somebody else, where officers may 18 in fact have to -- 19

Well, I'm hoping 20 that -- 21 COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I am not 22 interested in our police force becoming the 23 cure-all for the homeless problem, absolutely not. 24

Well, I'm hoping 25 this Council will have the sanity not to pass 2105 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY those bills, but there will be pressures on the Police Department, irrespective of whether the bills pass or not. Because homelessness and its appearance does seem to be some kind of a problem, and it's hard in other areas to determine what the police of the City of Philadelphia is. We have policies aimed at lessening homelessness, and we have policies which we carry out very effectively which increase homelessness, like we have shelter restrictions which bar people for a certain period of time for alleged misbehavior in the shelter. Then they're barred for three months from being in the shelter. Since they have no place else to go and they apparently like the company of other folks, they come down into Center City. And if they get chased out of Center City, then District Councilmembers representing different neighborhood areas suddenly get all kinds of complaints from their constituents. I'm hoping we stay away from that. One last final question. The Louima case in New York, do you have any knowledge of it? Were you following it in the New York Police 2106 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY Department? I've just been wondering, is it a case, isn't it a case? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I have no idea. I mentioned it earlier when I gave testimony regarding civilian oversight, civilian complaint review boards, the Louima case specifically. I was in New Zealand when that issue happened, and I was doing a radio interview a day after, and it had been on CNN, and the woman asked me, well, you know, how would I explain it? I mean, how could I explain the inexplicable? I can -- I have been in policing 29 years. I have seen things, I've done things, I've read about things, but this Louima thing was completely off the -- I mean, any cop I spoke to, whether it was in New York or anywhere in the nation, nobody could -- there is no explanation clearly. Obviously, there is no justification. And you can't even say that something similar happened somewhere else. We've had lots of serious situations happen in New York City over my 29 years. We had a police officer murder -- there's no other term for it -- murder a 13-year-old boy; just absolutely executed him. 2107 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY We've had all sorts of things along that range, but the Louima thing is completely off the scope. I mean, I just can't imagine thing like that happening. I have no further insight. I just know that -- I know Zack Carter who's the -- he's the District Attorney, the federal District Attorney taking over the case from the local District Attorney, and there are some -- while, clearly, that case is a big case, what's going on there, there are some issues tangential issues for policing that are starting to surface, that you may have seen in the New York Times in the last couple of days regarding the role of police unions and whether in fact they have the same rights vis-a-vis confidentiality as lawyer-client privilege. And the federal courts have ruled, no, they don't. So there's a whole hornets' nest that has been dug up and other issues surrounding that case. As the case itself will go forward and be dealt with, but there are a whole bunch of side issues having to do with police, police unions, and things of that nature, and a civilian oversight, and a whole host of things. 2108 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY

All right, thank you. Thank you, Madame Chair.

You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilman DiCicco.

Thank you, Madame Chair. Good afternoon, Commissioner or is it evening? You'll be happy to know that I have no 10 questions, so -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Give that man a sandwich. (Laughter.)

So you can just sit back while I just explain to my colleagues and the people listening about a recent visit I had to New York. About seven weeks ago, I was invited to New York see a taping of the Michael J. Fox show, "Spin City," I believe it's called. And I was a little bit apprehensive about going there and staying overnight because of the experience I had some seven or eight years ago when I did an overnight stay in New York. And my unpleasant experience seven or eight years ago led to that apprehension this time. 2109 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY I can remember seven or eight years ago walking along Broadway, in the vicinity of around 42nd Street, and I remember having lunch in one of the cafeterias overlooking Broadway. And there's an island out there on Broadway where I think there's a marine recruiting center or something around 40th or 39th Street. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah, 43rd Street.

43rd Street. And I can recall literally seeing drug dealers standing out on that island as though they were selling produce. I remember prostitutes grabbing at people. And I can recall the guys with the cardboard boxes that would set up the shell games, and they were literally ripping people off, in particular tourists and foreigners who had no idea what was happening. You know, the guy would set up the cards, somebody would raise the ante, and it was just a circle of people playing against one person, and they literally had no opportunity to win in the game. Councilman Cohen mentioned something 2110 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY about statistics a little while ago. And statistics concerning crime at least are as good as what people feel. And if they feel safe then, I guess, the statistics aren't important. With all due with respect to some of the recent statistics in Philadelphia, I would venture to say if a poll was taken in Philadelphia, most people would still say that they do not feel safe in Philadelphia. And I'm getting a "here, here" on the right-hand side. But the point I just wanted to bring out -- and, again, this is a statement and it's a compliment. And I'm commending you because you were a part of that whole process that literally has transformed New York into a place that I visited seven weeks ago which I have not yet stopped talking about. That same location off of Broadway is literally cleaned of the aggressive panhandlers, the prostitutes, the drug dealers. I went from Lexington, 37th and Lexington, to 78th Street, to the Art Museum, and walked back to 42nd Street, 43rd Street. Not one homeless person, not one 2111 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY panhandler, not one prostitute on a Saturday afternoon, a very busy day in New York. The weather was fine. There were literally tens of thousands of people walking. And I saw New Yorkers looking happy and feeling happy, and I had not seen that in my past experiences in New York. There was order back on the streets of New York. And I wish you well during the time that you're here, and I hope -- and I believe seeing is believing. And what I saw in New York, I believe that you will be able to do that for us in Philadelphia, and you will be able to restore order back to the streets of Philadelphia in cooperation with the fine Philadelphia Police Department that we have here today. So congratulations, and welcome to Philadelphia. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Thank you, Councilman, I appreciate that.

Thank you, Madame Chair.

Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter.

Thank you, Madame 2112 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY Chair. Just a couple final questions, Mr. Timoney. Can you share with us your views on -- and I know this has been your experience at your previous employ. There is one union for all of the officers who are in a union in Philadelphia. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

My understanding is that there are probably three or four by rank in the City of your previous employ. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Five.

Was it patrolman, sergeant, lieutenant, captain? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: And detectives.

And detectives, okay. Any perspectives on the distinction between the two -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Oh yeah.

-- systems? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I think you've hit on a very, very important point. Coming from where I came from, it's just -- it's one of the issues I will have to grapple with literally and figuratively. 2113 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY It's actually incomprehensible to me that everybody in the organization can belong to the same union. I'm sure I exaggerate, but I don't know how bosses, sergeants, lieutenants, captains, inspectors, chief inspectors can do their job and do their job effectively being in the same union. I'm probably wrong but, you know, it's in this matter, I will renege my New York, and I'll go to Missouri, and they're going to have to show me how it's done, because, you know, they're the old "Show Me" state. I don't know how you do it, but I'm perfectly willing to learn to see if it can be done, but it boggles my mind.

Well, do you plan to try to change it? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: In the whole scheme of things, I think I've been quite honest since I've gotten here two weeks ago. I have certain things that I want to accomplish in the next 22 months. I told you my 22 months is my frame of reference. If the next mayor decides that I should stay, God bless him or 2114 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY her, I will stay, but I'm using just months. And correcting that union issue, that's not on my radar screen.

I'm sorry? 6 COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: That's not on my 7 radar screen, that's not one of my priorities. 8

Okay. Can you tell 9 us of any actions you have taken personally in 10 your 29 years of experience to improve the nature 11 of the relationship between the Police Department 12 and various minority communities across the places 13 that you've served? 14 COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah, I 15 mean. . 16 We could quite literally be here for 17 the rest of the day, and I don't think we want to 18 be here the rest of the day, but let me give you 19 two examples. 20 I served as the commanding officer at 21 Chinatown. And when I took over as commanding 22 officer at Chinatown, relations between the Chinese community, which is a substantial community in New York -- we're talking about probably 200,000, 250,000 just in Chinatown. 2115 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY There are probably another 250,000 in the other boroughs, but a significant population. For a variety of reasons, not the best of relations with the Police Department. Maybe from their background not dealing with the best police departments in China, for a whole host of the reasons. And I think some bad interactions with members of the NYPD, specifically the 5th Precinct. When I took over, there was an issue percolating regarding the Chinese press and the police officers of the 5th Precinct. They were really at loggerheads. It turned out that one of our officers, who turned out to be a Chinese officer also, had arrested a newspaper reporter and wound up giving him a summons. And so that was one of the many issues that confronted me as I walked through the door. And it was a real bone of contention for me because there were four or five -- I think five -- newspapers in Chinatown, one television station, and two radio stations, so the media was going to have a significant role. And not that I'm going to roll over for 2116 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY the media, but they will play an important part in Chinatown for my getting the message out since we're talking about a community that, by and large, does not speak English. When I looked into the issue surrounding the summons, the cop was wrong. The arrest should not have been made. The member of the press was perfectly within his rights. It was at a polling location for voting to be there, and the cop was wrong. Now, I have -- I have got certain beliefs in my life that I've tried to live by, and trust me, trust me, I'm by no means a saint. But there's certain things that I try and do. One of them is if I'm wrong, I'll apologize. I firmly believe in that. It's the way I was brought up by parents, by the schools I went to. If you're wrong, you apologize. And so it turned out, we were wrong with this Chinese reporter. And so I got my executive officer, who was a lieutenant. I had to go down and get the department lawyers and go over to the court and withdraw the charge. I mean, that charge should not be pending if we are 2117 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY wrong. We withdrew the charge. And then I called the reporter to my office, and he came with his boss. And I told him what I had done. He was shocked. And I apologized. I apologized on behalf of the Department. And I also spoke to the officer before I brought the reporter in. I told the officer, you know, I generally support police, there's no 11 problem, but you're wrong here, and we're going to apologize. He said, Yeah, I have no problem with that. So I apologized to the reporter, and the reporter's jaw dropped because they had never, ever received an apology from a police official. And especially in Chinese culture, the whole idea of face and losing face and saving face is a big deal. That one act paid off dividends tremendously. It gave me entree into the Chinese community, meeting with groups, helped me get my message out. To this day, I still am invited back to all of the Chinese banquets. On my swearing-in, I'm sure there will 2118 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY be some folks down here from Chinatown next week.

I am somewhat of a folk hero in the Chinese community. I am their -- still their commanding officer even though I left there ten years ago. So that's one example. The other one is -- there were two parades in New York. New York is a city of parades, but there were two in particular that had -- for want of a better term -- had gotten out of hand: The St. Patrick's Day Parade and the Western Union Day Parade. Between the drinking and the fighting -- unfortunately, last year, on St. Patrick's Day, there was a young man killed in a fight. So, hopefully, they'll correct that next week, then we won't have these issues again. But the Western Union Day had become a real problem; assaults, shootings, and the whole bit. I worked closely with the Caribbean community in Brooklyn, trying to set that parade right, beginning, I guess, in the mid-eighties, early eighties, mid-eighties. And while I was in the Police Department as the Chief, I marched in that parade, 2119 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY for a variety of reasons. First of all, I liked the people organizing it. And, plus, I thought it was important symbolically, that the police were going to be not just policing this thing but part of. It was important to me to send messages out, not just to the Caribbean community, but also to the cops that were policing it. Listen, this is a fun event. And that event has turned out, by the way, now to be almost completely trouble-free, it really is. And it goes along great, and I still get my invites to the various Caribbean community functions, including participating in the parade.

Okay. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: There are others. And, if you want, we could sit down privately and we'll go over them. Or, as Casey Single says, you can look it up.

Okay. Lastly, prior to your being offered the position here -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

-- your activities were as a consultant. You had a business; is that 2120 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY correct? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well, I didn't have the business. I worked for a -- I wish I had the business, but I worked for a London-based company. The English of all things, imagine that. (Laughter.)

That's pretty interesting. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I was a traitor to my race.

I will not comment on that. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: That was an inside joke.

I understand. Okay, so you were actually working for a firm. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yes.

You were not a private consultant having your own business? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Where I just left now, yes. I was a private consultant prior to joining the Brits, in between the time I left the police department. I did some private consulting and then 2121 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY did I two pro bono commissions. "Pro bono" means you don't get paid. One was the commission in Ireland --

I'm aware of that. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: -- that I served on for a year. And then helping reorganize the Irish police force as a result of that journalist that was killed, Veronica Garren (ph). And at the same time, I was appointed to Vice Chair of the Domestic Violence Commission for Governor Pataki while, which I served. So doing those two pro bono missions, I was also supplementing my meager income doing private consulting, expert testimony, things of that nature.

And do you expect to do any more of that kind of work once you're sworn in -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: No, absolutely not.

-- as Police Commissioner here? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: No. 25

Well, please don't 2122 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY be offended, Mr. Timoney. It is not an unusual circumstance that some members of the government are able to do some outside work away from what their job is here. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: This is -- yeah.

And I don't know what the circumstances were in your previous employment, but it does happen here. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah. Well, it won't happen here with me 'cause it's 24/7 for 13 months. And if you want me to stay here longer, I 14 will stay. 15

More than likely, I 16 won't be making that decision. 17 (Laughter.) 18 COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Thank you very 19 much, Madame Chair. 20 COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Thank you.. 21

Commissioner, we 22 really appreciate your testifying before us today. Believe it or not, we haven't even touched the budget. So at this point in time, I would like 2123 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY to recognize Deputy Commissioner Nestel, with his written testimony. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Unfortunately, I have got to excuse myself.

You're excused. I should have executed myself two hours ago.

Thank you. Time goes by when you're having fun. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Thank you very much. - - - (Deputy Police Commissioner Thomas Nestel comes forward.)

Commissioner Nestel, good afternoon. Please proceed with your testimony. DEPT. COMM. NESTEL: Good afternoon, Councilwoman Verna and Members of City Council. I am Thomas Nestel, Deputy Police Commissioner. With us today are Deputy Commissioner Sylvester Johnson, Deputy Commissioner Robert Mitchell, and Fiscal Officer Thomas DeWaele. 2124 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - POLICE DEPT. TESTIMONY This past year has been one of significant change and progress for the Police Department. In FY '98, the Department continued to expand community policing by heightening the presence of on-street patrol officers and creating several new units to deter criminals, prevent crime and improve our ability to respond to crimes in progress. 3 million from the Aviation Fund. 9 million over the Department's FY '98 budget. Specifically, additional funds requested will be used to create a Helicopter Unit, deploy additional bicycle officers, cover the airtime costs for newly installed mobile data terminals, and fund 353 Crime Bill officers, whose salaries were partially offset by Federal Crime Bill funds in the past. In September 1998, when the last class of Crime Bill officers graduate, the police budget will fund 6,982 officers, over 750 more officers 2125 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - POLICE DEPT. TESTIMONY than just years ago. In fact, the nearly 7,000 officers, who will be serving on the force by the end of FY '99 is the highest number of officers on the force since March of 1985 when over 150,000 more people lived in the City. 3 percent higher than just 8 years ago, when there were only 4,878 officers on the street. 4 percent. 3 percent growth rate of local tax revenues forecast for the next year. 8 million to fund the salaries of Crime Bill officers. These additional officers 2126 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - POLICE DEPT. TESTIMONY have allowed the Department to devote more of its resources to the City's most pressing problems: the war on drugs and the need to address quality-of-life crimes. There can be no doubt that the spread of illegal drugs is the most important issue facing the Police Department. The damage to the quality of life of City residents caused by the flow of illegal drugs and the fear caused by the open sale of narcotics is the Department's number-one priority. In December 1997, the Department announced the first in a series of initiatives based on its ongoing review of deployment practices. As part of these initial changes, the Department increased the number of front line officers assigned to fight drugs and serious crime by adding 100 officers to Narcotics Strike Force and 100 officers to the Rapid Response Crime Team. The Strike Force, which now consists of 150 officers, expanded its role, concentrating on neighborhoods hit hardest by illegal drugs. The Strike Force conducts directed drug enforcement 2127 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - POLICE DEPT. TESTIMONY activities in a grid of approximately six to eight blocks. At the same time that the expanded Narcotics Strike Force began operation, the Department also created an elite 100-officer corps known as "The Rapid Response Crime Team," a mobile tactical force capable of saturating high-crime areas or areas experiencing a sudden increase in crime. Team officers coordinate with the Narcotics Strike Force and district personnel to attack open-air drug corners and combat the increasing weaponry and violence that accompany the sale of illegal drugs. Since these new units were created, the Departments Crime Analysis Unit has been working with our drug enforcement officials to create detailed maps of narcotics activities throughout the City by identifying areas with a large volume of narcotics sales and concentrating the deployment of our resources to the areas most in need of help. The results of these initiatives have been dramatic. To date, in FY '98, the Department 2128 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - POLICE DEPT.

TESTIMONY has made 6,899 arrests for narcotics, and projects that we will reach 12,000 arrests by the end of the fiscal year. This is an increase of 92 percent over FY '96. While this is only the first step in the Department's escalation of the war on drugs, these increases have begun to stem the flow of illegal drugs and helped to restore the quality of life of many residents of the City. The war on drugs, however, is by no 12 means the Department's only effort to target quality-of-life issues. " These teams will help the district captains develop a more coordinated and focussed approach to attack drugs and violent crime. 2 million of these funds to deploy 69 two-officer teams 2129 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - POLICE DEPT. TESTIMONY throughout the patrol districts to enforce truancy and curfew statutes and address other community-related problems. The results so far have been impressive. The number of truancy citations issued has increased from only 2,524 in 1996 to 21,453 in 1997. And the number of curfew citations increased from 20,944 in '96 to 24,990 in '97. The Department has also increased its focus on removing abandoned vehicles and issuing moving violations. 1 percent increase over FY '96. And we are projecting that for FY '98 and '99, we will remove 20,000 abandoned vehicles. The Department also projects that it will issue 300,000 moving violations in fiscal '98. This is an increase from the 292,000 in FY '97 and the FY '96 level of 210,000. Over the pass several years, the Department has implemented several other initiatives to help reduce the incidence of crime. For example, in 1996, Commissioner Neal 2130 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - POLICE DEPT. TESTIMONY established a Crime Analysis Committee that now meets to review the performance of each district captain and recommends solutions to persistent problems. In addition to the Crime Analysis Committee, specific types of crime have been targeted such as domestic violence, illegal gun trafficking, and juvenile crime. In 1993, the Department expanded its Domestic Violence Response Teams to every detective division in the City. In the past year, due in part to the efforts of these teams, the number of arrests for domestic violence has increased by 15 percent. Another initiative designed to help prevent crime was the expansion of the Federal Firearms Task Force in FY '97 to track the origin of every weapon used in the commission of a crime. Due in part to these efforts, the Department has made 1,414 arrests for weapons violations to date in FY '98, and projects that we will make 2,424 arrests by the end of the fiscal year. This is an increase of 19 percent over FY '97. 2131 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - POLICE DEPT. TESTIMONY The Department has decentralized the Juvenile Aid Division to allow officers to collaborate more easily with departmental detectives. The Department, through its Community Relations Unit, has also continued to operate numerous anti-drug and anti-gang programs such as DARE and GREAT, and the Police Athletic League to help keep young children out of harm's way. In addition, the Department began a pilot project in March 1997 in the East Police Division based on the juvenile crime techniques that have proven effective in Boston. Since its inception, probation and juvenile officers have made over 145 house visits to juveniles on probation. All these efforts have begun to pay off. Newly revised crime figures show that the crime in Philadelphia is falling. Although the Department's methodology for measuring crime has been subject to data entry lags in the past, new crime figures revised in accordance with the FBI's Uniform Crime Reporting guidelines show that major crimes in Philadelphia dropped from 46,929 to 42,290 during the first six months of 1997. This 2132 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - POLICE DEPT. TESTIMONY is a decrease of percent over the prior year.

In addition, the Department increased the number of arrests made from approximately 61,000 in FY '96 to 63,000 in FY '97, and we are projecting a number of arrests of 65,000 for FY '98. While last year's accomplishments have been significant, it is important to remember that these changes were only the first in a series of systemic changes to the way we operate. In the coming year, the Department will continue its Comprehensive review of deployment practices that was begun in 1997. In 1998, the Police Department will focus on the creation of a complete resource allocation model. Representatives from the Police Department, the Managing Director's Office, and the Mayor's Office of Information Services have traveled to New York and Boston to study each city's method of allocating officers. Based on the information gathered during these trips and the results of our own internal refer, we will begin to craft a new resource allocation model. When completed, the 2133 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - POLICE DEPT. TESTIMONY model will use deployment and crime mapping software to help allocate officers more efficiently and to determine the most effective use of the Department's resources. Several other major initiatives designed to maximize the effectiveness of our officers planned for 1998 include: Creation of a Helicopter Unit, which is scheduled to begin patrol in early FY '99; Returning preliminary court hearings to individual police districts; Seeking more latitude in setting work schedules and holding district commanders responsible for results; And continuing to affirm the Department's commitment to community policing through a variety of initiatives. In addition to these efforts, we are also making changes that will improve the effectiveness of our response to 911 calls. Changes to the City's 911 system include: installation of mobile data terminals in every one of our marked radio patrol cars and exploring the creation of a 311 non-emergency number. 2134 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - POLICE DEPT. TESTIMONY The Department has made significant progress in the past year, but much remains to be done. While the ultimate responsibility for fighting crime must remain with the Police Department, the Commonwealth can take several steps to help this City fight crime by: Requiring the State police to assume the responsibility for patroling the City's highways; Imposing a 10-cent surcharge on lottery tickets sold in Philadelphia to be used solely for hiring and equipping police officers; Tightening State sentencing guidelines for certain categories of offenses; Following the federal government's lead by eliminating preliminary hearings in criminal cases; And restoring the State funding for homeless programs; And lobbying the federal government for additional funding for drug prevention initiatives. I urge this Council to do all that it can to support these initiatives. If the 2135 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - POLICE DEPT. TESTIMONY Commonwealth enacts any of these initiatives, those resources could immediately be reassigned to combat drugs and reduce crime. This concludes my testimony. We will be happy to answer any questions you may have. )

Thank you very much. Does anybody wish to be heard? (No response.)

We have no lights on, you should run. (Laughter.)

We have no 16 lights. Run, run, run. Thank you very much.

Why don't we take about a five-minute recess. (Brief recess taken.) (Proceedings resume.) - - - (Councilwoman Verna takes over the Chair.)

We have quite a 2136 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY list to consider today. I would ask my colleagues to please come to the chamber, thank you. The next department to be heard is the First Judicial District of Pennsylvania. (First Judicial District panel comes forward.)

Alex Bonavitacola, Chairman, Administrative Governing Board, First Judicial District. With me at the table is President Judge Allen Silverstein, seated to my right. To my left is Joseph DiPrimio, Court Administrator of the First Judicial District, and we have two other staff here if their testimony is needed.

Thank you. Do you want to proceed with your testimony, please.

May it please Council, my name is Joseph DiPrimio, I am the Court Administrator for the Philadelphia courts. The First Judicial District respectfully submits its Fiscal Year '99 operating budget request and supporting testimony to Council. This unusual move has been necessitated by the City Administration's decision to not 2137 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY include the Court's funding in the Mayor's FY '99 operational budget submission, which occurred in January of '98. With respect to Statewide funding, the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania had appointed Special Master Justice Frank Montemuro to serve and investigate and make recommendations to the Supreme Court with respect to funding transition. That report was filed in July of 1996. In the report the Master recommended transition to State unification and funding in phases. The first phase provided that all the salaries for all top trial court administrators and their deputies would be provided by the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, beginning July 1, 1988. In regard to the Phase I implementation, it appears that significant progress has occurred. 5 million in funds for Phase I implementation. Included in that funding for Phase I for county staff across the Commonwealth totaling approximately 163 employees 2138 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY of which were from the City and County of Philadelphia. The 12 from Philadelphia included the top court administrators and deputies and represent an aggregate salary of approximately $873,000 in direct salaries plus associated indirect fringe benefits and costs. The Governor's FY '9 was presented in February of '98 and included, in fact, funding for the Phase I positions. According to the Master's recommendation, the Phase III is scheduled for implementation in the year 2000. And this implementation would shift judicial and personnel staff, court reporters, data processing, and other administrative support staff to State funding. Phase III, which is scheduled to occur later, would shift Domestic Relations, Adult and Juvenile Probation, the Law Library, Investigative and other support services. The so-called row offices, which are not part of the First Judicial District would occur in Phase IV. Until the issue of statewide funding of local court is resolved. Respectfully submit that the Philadelphia court has no alternative but to seek funding from the City of Philadelphia and, 2139 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY therefore, must respectfully submit its budget to City Council directly. The District's budget is annualized as opposed to incrementally based on six months, as occurred in Fiscal Year 1998. Included with today's budget and testimony provided heretofore to Council is an actual breakdown of our appropriation request. The total budget call that the City had included for the First Judicial District back in November was approximately $106 million. 9 million more than that because of three significant differences with the City. " In other words, the City and court had agreed that the City would provide 600,000 to provide the court with funding necessarily association with important vacancy positions. Other than that, there is a modest increase with respect to Class 2, 3 and 400. Class 200 includes an approximate 25 percent 2140 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY increase for approximately $400,000 of additional revenues needed to fund the Municipal Court Writ Servers Unit. Class 200 also includes $200,000 additionally to support the increase utilization of court interpreters, which, frankly has occurred as a result of the varied demographics of our City's population. And lastly, it includes approximately $700,000 of additional data-processing costs associated with Traffic Court's increased productivity. Now, these class 200 increases actually result in increased collections being passed through to the City of Philadelphia.

President Judge Bonavitacola will shortly speak to Council with respect to the revenues which the First Judicial District generates to offset our operational budget. In all other respects, our budget is zero growth, in keeping with our years of agreement with the City and as promised to this Council. I respectfully request on behalf of the Court that Council positively consider approval of our budgetary request. 2141 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY

I thank you. Your Honor. JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: Alex Bonavitacola. Councilwoman Verna, I just wish to bring to your attention that our budget, as submitted, is in the sum of $108,455,000. I need the Council to be aware of the fact that $10 million of that money is money that's not spent on behalf of the Court but represents counsel fee costs for indigent defendants in criminal cases. And that has always been a very difficult number to arrive at because it depends on the number of cases in any given fiscal year and how intense those cases are; whether they are homicide or felony jury trials or misdemeanors or felony-waiver trial cases. So that, in effect, the budget for the Court's benefit is $98,455,000. We wish the Council to know that we have a compendium, and I have ample copies here for all Members of the Council, that the Court provides $42,500,000 in revenues that are paid into the City treasury as a result of various grants that we get, activities that we are involved in that generate fines, fees, and costs. 2142 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY So that we feel that our budget is, in effect, really $55,954,000 as a cost to the county and the City of Philadelphia. Now, may I also just add one thing to Mr. DiPrimio's comments on the State take-over of the court systems that Phase III and Phase IV have no dates on them. We do have Phase I, which is phased in this July 1st; and we have Phase II, which is allegedly to be phased in July 1st of the year 2000, but Phases III and IV are undated.

On that very issue, do we know if the State will merely reimburse the City for the. . . Judge, you're laughing, and that frightens me. Are they going to reimburse the City for their employees, or are they simply going to take over? JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: I don't know how -- I think the best quotation I heard on that is, "We're leaving it up to the people with the MBA degrees to figure out which is the most economical, productive way to do that." And I'm not sure that they've arrived at any consensus. But I will say that the first phase, 2143 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY which is going down this July 1st, we'll be putting these administrators, all of them, onto 4 the State payroll, so it won't be a reimbursement 5 item. 6

My concern is, 7 then, the 12 can certainly then move to anywhere 8 they want in the County or the State? 9 JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: I have already 10 raised -- 11

And will the 2,000 12 other employes, once the State starts to fund the Court, be able to do the same? JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: Councilwoman, I assure you that was one of the vest first points I brought up with the State Court Administrator. And that is under review by them and the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania.

And I don't think anybody's talked about what happens to someone's pension. For instance, if they've worked for the court system in Philadelphia for nine years, will that automatically be transferred over to the State? And do they have the same type of pension 2144 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY plan that we have? I think there are a lot of concerns that really have to be addressed. JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: There are a number of outstanding issues that are very important. And I understand that among options are if an employee heretofore is vested in the City plan, then they could draw a bright line at that point. And from that point forward, the employee will make its contributions to the State fund. And when they are vested there, ultimately could receive two different kinds of pensions; one from the City, one from the State. All new employees could be absorbed directly into the State system without going into the City pension system. But all of all that needs to be determined. And I think that's why the year 2000 has been put on that leap.

Thank you. I had to ask that one question because it's really been bothering me for a long time. JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: It's been bothering all of us. 2145 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY

Judge Silverstein. JUDGE SILVERSTEIN: Thank you, Councilwoman Verna. The only thing I wanted to add to what President Judge Bonavitacola already stated and what's in our documentation is that the additional $415,000 requested for the Municipal Court Writ Servers is really an uncontrollable expense for us. And as I explained to Dean Kaplan from the City, the legislature had increased the fee for writ service from 10 to 15 dollars, and the City never kept up with that increase. And one of the our biggest customers is the City of Philadelphia with these code violation cases and tax cases that produce tens of millions of dollars for the City. And that line item is certainly something that should be protected so that these writ servers can be paid. And other than that, I concur with everything President Judge Bonavitacola and our Court Administrator has already said.

Thank you. Judge Bonavitacola, do we have any 2146 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY indication as to how many employees would come under the Phase III? JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: I would assume that it would be somewhere in the vicinity of 2,000 employees.

Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Fernandez.

Thank you, Madame Chair. Good afternoon. JUDGE SILVERSTEIN: Good afternoon.

You directly addressed in your testimony the problem of the Supreme Court's order for the funding of the courts to be really a State-paid function. And each time I look at our budget, when I see $108 million that we have to pay out yet we have no control over, and I think of the all the things that $108 million could go for, you know I find it very troubling. So I just wondered, am I understanding you correctly that for this Phase I implementation of the longer-range plan, that there was a request in the State budget for 15-plus million, but the 2147 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY City of Philadelphia's getting less than a million or getting 875 thousand? JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: It's million 5 Statewide for all the administrators, of which 12 6 of them are Philadelphia. And the price is 800 7 and -- 8

Approximately 850,000 9 for Philadelphia. 10 But also included in the $15 million 11 figure were funds for further studies to implement 12 Phase III, specifically addressing the points that 13 Councilwoman Verna's raised with respect to 14 pension and things like that, transition of 15 data-processing. So while it sounds that -- $15 million is a lot of money, there's no question, but there are portions of that for other non-personnel matters.

Because when I saw the 15 and saw we were only getting less than a million, and I can't recall the population of the State, what would it be about, do you know? How many million people? I know our region is over a third of 2148 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY the population, and we from this region pay over a third of the taxes into the State government. So it felt like less than a million out of a $15 million package. I'm wondering if it's proportionate. And if it isn't, why isn't it? Again, we shouldn't have been to be paying it in the first place, and I know that's not your problem, it's the State legislature's problem. But it feels like $873,000 is barely symbolic.

It does represent -- the $800,000 does represent the dollar-for-dollar costs for the salaries associated with the 12 employees of the Court system. With respect to the fair share or the fair contribution, I have no way of knowing whether or not that Philadelphia is getting a fair share. It doesn't seem to me, quite frankly. But I can I say that our 12 employees represent the single largest number of people going over onto Statewide unification. So compared to the Clinton County, perhaps they may have only 2 people; we have 12. 2149 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY

Well, again, I know it's not your responsibility, but as you're having conversations with people probably more frequently than we are, again, the bottom line is we should not be paying this anyway. And our budget would be in such better shape if we didn't have that $108 million that we're not supposed to be paying. And then, again, I wish they will be sure to be proportional since, again, we probably have more need, probably more crime, per capita crime, where we need the courts. So I would think there'd be some proportionality, either in terms of population or amount of crime that our courts need to be handled as they move ahead in this process. JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: I think the red flag that needs to be raised here is that if the State took over the funding of the court system tomorrow, that would not result in a $108 million savings to the City of Philadelphia because the fees, fines, costs, and monies generated through the court system, which amount to $43 million would be paid over directly to the State. 2150 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY

Oh, okay. JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: Yeah, so that's a red flag.

You know, I'd settle still, though, for 60, 70 million. But, good, I'm glad you're correcting me on that. One other issue that had come up. I think it was in the City Controller's report. He raised some questions about the way you keep track of payroll costs. And I'm not sure of the terminology here, but it was where you give people credit for -- is it 80 hours? -- and only if the record show they haven't -- JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: We're on a negative.

-- done that, and you deduct it later? JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: Yeah.

Is there any reason why you don't do a -- I don't know whether you call it a positive type of payroll accounting like I think we do here in the City.

I'm glad you asked that 2151 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY question. As a matter of fact, we're actually converted to that system now.

Okay. JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: It's positive versus negative reporting.

Right. JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: So the assumption is on negative reporting that the employee worked the full week unless we notify you that the employee's out on a particular day. We've converted on the ABRA (ph) system on computer to a positive reporting system.

So when people say, "I actually worked" --

Yes.

-- they get paid for that.

That's correct. The system heretofore had been just a manual checkoff whether or not the employee was in or not and then after the fact got reported into the City's data-processing. Through cooperative discussions with Mr. Kaplan, we're moving towards rolling out our 2152 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY computer -- our automated system for tracking employee attendance and time right into the work place. And then following that up on the heels of positive attendance reporting.

Okay. Thank you, Madame Chair.

You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter.

Thank you Madame Chair. Good afternoon, Your Honors. Judge Bonavitacola, I want to ask a question about the capacity and the capability of the computer system in the courts to possibly get some information. And I know you're, from previous testimony, very well versed with the court computer system. If I do ask something that you might not be aware of, then maybe we can get the answer from someone else. Is the court's system able to track the number and type and disposition and follow-through on cases by judge? JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: Yes.

So you could -- and 2153 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY it would do it on a historical basis? I mean, you could go from a particular point up to a point, and you would be able to, for instance, print out by the particular judge, how many cases, what the disposition was by charge, was it a bench trial, was it a jury trial, appeals, and what happened with the appeal; you could do all of that? JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: Yes.

And how long would something like that take? JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: To prepare a printout?

Yes. JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: I guess it would depend on a few things, Councilman. How long has the judge been in tenure. In other words, how many years are we covering. How many different programs has the judge been in, list room, homicide, jury trial, civil, you know, whatever. And I don't think we're talking about a tremendous amount of time. I think it could be produced in 72 hours, 120 hours the most.

Okay. So all I would need to do is to tell you who the person 2154 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY was. And I'm not sure of all the various assignments, but if I gave you the particular individual, you'd be able to print out all of that information for me? JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: Yeah. We have the capability.

All right, I'd like to follow up with you on that because I do have a request that I'd like to make in that regard. Thank you. Thank you, Madame Chair.

Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Cohen.

Thank you, Madame Chair. First, I wanted to congratulate the Courts, all of them, for what I perceive to be from the reports of the increased efficiency of the -- I guess it's too fast to say the elimination the backlog, but the virtual elimination of the backlog, and really with a much lessened amount of criticism coming from the public generally about the courts. And that also, it's a non-statistical 2155 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY way of our judging because we're the recipients, I think, of most of the complaints. And what Councilwoman Verna raised earlier about her concern on the State takeover, we're very concerned about the Philadelphia employees. We're interested in ever broadening the area of the residency requirements. We want to we want to broaden them. We're worried that this may lessen them. We don't want to see employees who are working for the courts and who have stayed in Philadelphia, we don't want to see the ties loosened between them and the City. And we also would feel more comfortable as far as their security is concerned if Philadelphia retains jurisdiction over them, but we will follow that apace. The particular area that I'm concerned about is the quality of the legal services. And I think it affects the judges too, because if you have a well-prepared case by an attorney that has the time to amply present the case, I think it makes the life of the judges much easier, and I think you feel better knowing that all possible 2156 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY areas of the case were covered. And in that area, I'm very much worried about what seems to be severe problems in the private bar with respect to indigent criminal defendants. Largely, I expect the public defenders's office has been giving that responsibility, but there are many occasions when if there are two or more people and I guess you could count many more cases than I would have easily available where people from the private bar are appointed. And, increasingly, at the meetings of the Criminal Justice Section of the Bar Association and in discussions or calls that I get from lawyers, there seems to be very real concern. So I'm going to be posing a number of questions because I think this concerns a problem that we want to get righted, whatever that may take. First, you mentioned the overall budget of the court is set to be about 108 million, but 10 million of that is basically counsels' costs which relate to basically the non-operational aspects of the court. 2157 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: Correct.

Right. Now, as I've been looking at the budget, those figures are always grouped and the larger figure is always given as the cost of the court system. Would you have any objection if a procedure were to be established that for the internal budgeting of the budget, there were a separate line item for the counsel costs so it would indicate, say, court costs 98 million, counsel fees, you know, in some kind of subtitles, counsel fees, 10 million, using figures that you talked about. That would seem to me to help clarify the issue. JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: Most assuredly, Councilman Cohen, because in the past five years, our budget item for indigent counsel fees, as approved by the City Administration and put into our budget, we needed to supplement it from tightening it up on not replacing employees that retired or left the system and would hold the position open for a number months in order to accumulate the moneys to shift it over into the 2158 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY shortfall in counsel fees. So if they're a separate item, completely a separate item, counsel fees, we would have no objection to that.

All right. JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: As a matter of fact, we'd be pleased to turn it over to the City and say, Take the budget amount and --

Well, that would may also be -- JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: We'd be delighted to do that.

I'm just exploring at this stage different options that might exist. Does the court have -- sort of following Councilman Nutter's questions with respect to getting information on cases, would it be possible to track the cost of, say, counsel fees over the years, say, for the last decade? JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: We do.

You do. JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: We track it.

And those figure would be available? 2159 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: We track it very carefully.

All right. I would like -- is there any kind of a breakdown, because I know you have at least two main groups. You have the private bar involved in criminal defense activities, and then you have the private bar involved in the Juvenile Courts as children advocates or whatever the phrase is applied in child advocacy lawyers. I don't know what the exact phrase is. Are they the two main areas? Are there any more areas where they're separate counsel fees? JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: You pretty much have it. And Kevin Cross, seated to my left, keeps very close tabs on it and breaks it down according to whether it's juvenile delinquency fees that we're paying for or juvenile dependency or spousal abuse. And on this other side, whether it's a homicide or a felony expenditure. So, yes, they are broken down, and we have a historical data base on that. 2160 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY

And then if my office were to call, we'd be able to get that information? JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: Absolutely.

Well, we're looking for a way of resolving it because I've always been a member of the private bar, not very active except on behalf of City Council or sometimes in matters affecting the City. It may not have been on behalf of the City Administration; it might be against them. But other than that, when I'm in Council, I don't take any private cases. But I've been a member of the private bar long enough to know that if you're going to have a strong bar, you need an addition to the defenders' office, and they do a great job, but you need a private healthy bar that affords, you know, good defenses. And the information I'm getting is that the -- and I'm not sure if it's accurate and that's the reason I'm raising it with you. I'm getting at, there's kind of a real financial squeeze on members of the private bar. Maybe -- you know, I don't know what causes this, I don't 2161 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY even want to speculate. But I'm told, for example, that say, in the child advocacy cases, that there is a limit of 400, 450, 500, I don't know what the exact figure is, but it's some figure which is the most they can receive in a case, no matter what time they put in in working on the case, no matter how long. I've been told that cases may last a number of years. And yet, that same figure covers that situation. They're the kind of issues I would like to raise. And in the criminal defense, the -- during the O.J. Simpson case, I was reminded of the homicide case I handled in the late seventies, during a period when I was out of City Council. I was court-appointed and was awarded the munificent sum of $150 to cover all investigative, psychiatric studies, anything that was needed. They said, Do what you want with the $150, spend it in whatever way you want. And that was the total amount, but don't come back for any more money. That was the total amount then allotted. And I thought of the half a million, 2162 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY the million dollars that the O.J. Simpson defense got. Maybe that was why my client was found guilty, and O.J. Simpson was not. But I'm saying that I'm mindful of the fact that we've always had trouble this in that area. Would he be the right fellow also to make inquiry before I know in what manner to proceed? JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: Mr. Cross can give you the congregate figures, yeah, sure. He can give you the figures.

And then we might want to have discussions after that 'cause I think it's something that cries out. JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: Right.

And the City has a real interest in having a healthy private bar. JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: Well, let me just say this one thing to you that might help to alleviate your anxiety or their anxiety. And that is that Philadelphia courts treat appointed counsel much better than the five surrounding counties, who, the way they treat appointed counsel, there's a significant difference. 2163 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY In the surrounding, several of them cap fees at a certain amount, no matter what happens. We have our fee systems here that exceed those. And, for example, you talk about being paid a hundred dollars and don't come back again. We had the very notorious and unfortunate Center City jogger case that cost out of this fund over $35,000 in attorneys' fees, plus many thousands of dollars -- I can't recall right now -- in investigators' and expert witness fees. That case ran us close to $42,000.

But that was probably a very unusual case. JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: Yes, but I would say it was --

And you were probably happy it was a very unusual case. JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: It was.

Because you couldn't afford many like that. But I'm thinking more of the cases that are kind of run-of-the-mill, you know, where the defendant can't pay anything. But I think we've got to respect the needs of the private bar and 2164 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY enable them to present adequate an defense. 'Cause we can kid ourselves, you know. We can have rates so low that we compel people not to be able to present the full kind of case that ought to be presented. And we do it in the name economy. And, yet, the effect is the defendant doesn't get the kind of representation that we would all want a defendant to have or in a criminal case or in these child advocacy cases. All right. I will get the gentleman's name again later. And we'll be in touch with you. And I assume if he doesn't do the right thing, Judge, I can go right to you. JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: He will, he will.

He will. And he'll protect you from me. Okay, we'll find out. But we'd like to do that because I think there's some methods that we may have to change. Are there agreements that are arrived at between -- or who makes the decision as to what the fees are? How does that come about that any number is set? JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: The administrative 2165 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY judge of the division normally makes certain determinations in the Common Pleas Court. I make them concerning the homicide cases in which the fee is in excess of $4,000. Municipal Court has a flat-fee system. And for a large part of the juvenile court, there's a flat-fee system.

Mm-hmm. All right, they may have merit, they may have demerits. But I would -- first gathering the information enables you to have a firm base. Thank you, Madame Chair.

You're welcome. Are there any other questions from Members of the Committee? (No further questions at this time.)

Gentlemen, thank you very much, and thank you for your patience. I'm sorry you were kept waiting. JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: That's all right. May we submit to you enough copies for the entire Council on this -- just the summary budget?

The Sergeant of Arms will distribute them. JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: You may have them 2166 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - SHERIFF'S DEPT. TESTIMONY for all Members of Council.

Thank you. JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: Thank you. - - -

The Sheriff's Office is next to testify come forward. (Members of Sheriff's Office panel come forward.)

Good afternoon. SHERIFF GREEN: Good afternoon.

Please identify yourself for the record and proceed with your testimony. SHERIFF GREEN: John Green, Sheriff for the City of Philadelphia and County of Philadelphia. Our formal testimony is relegated to two really just two points. One, we'd like to thank the Council for its assistance in settling two matters, financial matters, during the last fiscal year. One was the adjustment of our fee schedule. That allowed us to collect more money that we were able to put towards our personnel 2167 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - SHERIFF'S DEPT. TESTIMONY portion of our budget. The second was a resolution that was passed by this body that provided some assistance in settling the FOP's matter with the City, which you're familiar with, which dealt with bonus money that was owed to our deputy sheriffs. With that, I would just like to inform you that we are willing to live within the budget that has been given to us by the City of Philadelphia by the Administration, and that concludes our testimony.

Were the bonuses given to your employees? They were? SHERIFF GREEN: Yes.

And I believe they were supposed to get an increase, were they not? SHERIFF GREEN: Yes.

Is that reflected in your budget? SHERIFF GREEN: Yes, in part. That's why we have an increase.

Fine. And as I read your budget, you're asking for an additional seven positions? 2168 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - SHERIFF'S DEPT. TESTIMONY (Paris Frazier, Budget Officer comes forward.)

That's our complement that we had in -- 6

So they're 7 position that are vacant and have -- you're just 8 going to fill them. 9

Yes. 10

And would that 11 reduce your overtime. 12

There's no assurance of 13 that, no. 14

I'm sorry. You 15 testified and you didn't identify yourself for the 16 record. The stenographer must have your name. 17

My name is Paris 18 Frazier. I'm the Budget Officer. 19

Thank you.

Most of the time our overtime is driven by the courts carrying our -- requiring our deputies staying over into the evening hours. So even when we add more people, we still generate -- they generate overtime.

Fine. And these 2169 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - SHERIFF'S DEPT. TESTIMONY positions are civil service?

Yes.

Thank you. Are there any questions from Members of the Committee?

I was mentioning how cooperative the Sheriff's Office is, and I hope the Council partly repaid your cooperation with us. Weren't their Sheriff's employees involved in the recent settlement along the delayed wage increase? I know there were Register of Wills employees, and it's my understanding that there were a number of Sheriff's employees involved. Council felt it was a real injustice.

Yes. I thanked the Council earlier for its assistance in that matter. Your resolution went a long way in revolving that matter.

Well, we're happy too. And all of us in Council, I think, appreciate the work of the Sheriff's Office.

Thank you very much.

Thank you. 2170 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - SHERIFF'S DEPT. TESTIMONY

Are there any other questions or comments from Members of the Committee? (No further questions at this time.).