Committee Hearing, March 3, 1998

1922 COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA RECESSED HEARING BEFORE THE COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Tuesday, March 3, 1998 9:45 a.m. - - - BILL NO. 980003 - An Ordinance Adopting the Operating Budget for Fiscal Year 1999 PRESENT: PRESIDENT JOHN F. STREET, Chairman COUNCILWOMAN AUGUSTA A. CLARK COUNCILWOMAN JANNIE BLACKWELL COUNCILMAN DAVID COHEN COUNCILWOMAN ANNA CIBOTTA VERNA COUNCILMAN JAMES F. KENNEY COUNCILWOMAN DONNA REED MILLER COUNCILMAN MICHAEL A. NUTTER COUNCILWOMAN HAPPY FERNANDEZ COUNCILWOMAN MARIAN B. TASCO COUNCILMAN ANGEL L. ORTIZ COUNCILMAN FRANK DICICCO COUNCILMAN BRIAN J. O'NEILL COUNCILMAN RICHARD T. MARIANO COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO - - - VINCENT VARALLO ASSOCIATES, INC. Registered Professional Reporters Eleven Penn Center, Suite 600 Philadelphia, PA 19103 (215) 561-2220 1923 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - BILL NO. 980003 I N D E X John Timoney, Police Commissioner------------ 1925 Philadelphia Police Department Thomas Nestel, Dept. Police Commissioner----- 2123 Philadelphia Police Department Joseph DiPrimio, Court Administrator--------- 2136 First Judicial District The Honorable Alex Bonavitacola-------------- 2141 President, Administrative Governing Board First Judicial District Judge Silverstein---------------------------- 2145 First Judicial District Sheriff John Green--------------------------- 2166 City and County of Philadelphia Paris Frazier, Budget Officer---------------- 2167 Sheriff's Department Thomas Costello, Commissioner---------------- 2177 Philadelphia Prison System Gary Henderson, Contract Administrator------- 2184 Philadelphia Prison System Diane Granlund, Deputy Managing Director----- 2187 Population Management, Philadelphia Prison System Ronald R. Donatucci-------------------------- 2203 Register of Wills, Clerk of Orphans' Court 1924 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - BILL NO. 980003 P R O C E E D I N G S

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. This is a recessed hearing of the Council Committee of the Whole. Today we will take testimony on a number of different bills, but primarily on Bill No. 980003, an ordinance 8 adopting the operating budget for Fiscal Year 1999. We'll just wait just a minute. Today, we are pleased to have with us for the first time our new Police Commissioner. It is my understanding that he will give some brief remarks. And, as you can see, he is flanked by the usual folks in the Department who come in and who subject themselves to this process. They are veterans at this, and we appreciate their attendance. We would like to congratulate our new Police Commissioner, and we know he is just learning the Department and all of the ins and outs of the Department. What I would like to do is provide an opportunity for him to make a brief statement and then entertain some questions and some discussion about his approach to policing and some things 1925 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY like that that are not necessarily in detail specific to our Department, but I think it will be very helpful to the Members of this Council to be able to have a discussion about, you know, where he is and the kind of things that he would like to do as we begin a discussion of this Department. The Chair recognizes Councilman DiCicco.

Thank you, Mr. President. And the new Police Commissioner made his first request of a Councilmember. He'd like a glass of water.

Can we -- that's right, this will be the least of our problems. (Laughter.) (Water provided to Police Commissioner Timoney.)

Commissioner, we are delighted to have you here with us. We would appreciate it very much if you would identify yourself for the record and proceed with your comments. We will have your comments, and we 1926 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY would like to entertain some discussion after which we can move a little bit more formally to the testimony regarding the Department's budget. But I think the Councilmembers -- I know I'm interested in some of your views about policing, community policing, things like that, what it means to you. And I think it would be very helpful to us, in addition to which our colleagues in the press are going to want to write every little thing. I mean, they want to know everything you think about all of this. So welcome, and please proceed with your statement. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Good morning. My name is John Timoney, T-I-M-O-N-E-Y, the Police Commissioner designated. I'd like to begin by again thanking you, Mr. President, for inviting me here today and for your kind remarks last week. Rather than go into the requests for the next budget, which my colleagues here will address later on, I would just like to make one or two statements regarding crime in the City. And 1927 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY then I think we'd all benefit by a series of questions. That would be much more enlightening. Reading the papers this morning, I think it would be remiss of me to comment on anything other than the series of homicides that occurred in this town over the weekend. They were tragic, brutal, awful, and I think, in some cases, symptomatic of urban violence that we find in most American cities throughout this nation. The difference, I think, for Philadelphia -- as I have been tracking crime not only up in New York but in other major cities, there clearly has been a decline in the rate of homicides in cities across this country from as high as 60 percent up in New York, 30 or 40 percent in Los Angeles and other cities. There are two major cities that have not seen the benefits of crime decline in the area of homicide. One is Chicago and the second one is Philadelphia. The homicide rate in Philadelphia has remained disturbingly consistent over the last five or six or seven years; in and around between 400 and 420 or 425 every year. That is, by any measurement, an awful 1928 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY statistic. It's way too high. Any number of homicides is way too high. But, clearly, 400 or 410, in my opinion, is off the sculpin. There's an article in today's Inquirer that referenced the most recent studies in homicides in this City, typical of most other cities that maintain somewhere around 45 or 47 percent of the homicides in this town are somehow drug-related. And that is not surprising. Depending who you speak to, depending on what city, you're in -- it can range anywhere from 30 to 35 percent up to 50 percent. By and large in most American cities, drugs is the engine that drives the crime machine. And if we are to do anything substantively regarding crime, the centerpiece -- the centerpiece -- has to be a drug initiative, a serious drug initiative. And we're in the process now of developing a comprehensive, extensive drug initiative that I firmly believe will be successful over the next six, seven, eight months in having a major impact on drugs and on the crime that is driven by drugs. 1929 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY There is one caveat that I want to offer before I take office officially next Monday, and that is regarding drugs. Some of you may have noticed in my resume last week or the week before, whenever I came out, that one of the areas of expertise that I hold within policing -- and I think I hold a few, but one of them that I think know inside out has to do with police shootings, officer-involved shootings.

And no matter how you break it down, no 12 matter how you compare assignments within police departments, whether it's a regular patrol officer, a detective, narcotics officer, highway officer, no matter how you break down the various functions, the most dangerous assignment in policing today in the major cities is in the area of narcotics. Narcotics officers are engaged in per capita at proportionately higher rates of gun fights than are officers on patrol, no matter what neighborhood they're in, more gun fights than detectives, no matter what assignment, whether it's homicide or robbery. The bottom line is, the narcotics business is a dangerous, dangerous 1930 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY business. The vast majority of narcotics dealers, especially at the mid-level, are all armed to the teeth, and they're not hesitant to use those arms at police, at rival drug dealers, or anybody that gets in their way. The reason I'm saying this is, while I hope it doesn't happen, if history is any judge, and if history's any predictor -- and it is -- as we begin this narcotics initiative, our officers will be in greater jeopardy, they will be shot at more; and they, in turn, will wind up shooting and wounding, and in some cases, killing drug dealers. This is not to scare you or to make an excuse; it's just to state a fact. And, for example, if you look at New York City -- and I'm not going to compare Philadelphia to New York City -- but the New York City Narcotics Division alone, just so far this year -- now, this is just the Narcotics Division in New York City -- they've had four police officers killed -- I'm sorry, four police officers shot and one killed just so far this year. It's extremely dangerous, this 1931 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY narcotics business, and there is nobody that knows this better than the folks that live in those neighborhoods. They are the ones that suffer day in and day out the violence surrounding drugs, and I think they know. The one thing I will make sure we do, before we undertake this drug initiative, is to make sure that our officers receive extra training, special training. I personally will address them myself. I spent four years in Narcotics back in the late seventies, and I was involved in a gun battle on my seventh wedding anniversary, on February 12, 1978, when my partner was shot. Again, it was a drug dealer who outgunned us. He had an automatic weapon. So back then, it was dangerous, I'm sure it was dangerous years 19 before that. But it's clearly, clearly much more 20 dangerous today. And I just want that known up front. I'm not using it as an excuse, I'm not looking to scare people. I am just pointing out a fact of life in urban America regarding drugs that I think most people recognize: that it's violent. 1932 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY And I hope there isn't an increase in shootings, I hope our officers don't wind up getting shot and wounded. But, again, as I say, if history is any predictor throughout the United States, then this is the type of battle we're in for. I am not, again, trying to paint a picture of dooms day, I'm just trying to paint a realistic picture of the uphill battle we face because, as I started off by saying, Philadelphia and Chicago are the two major cities that have not enjoyed the decline in crime, specifically homicides, that other major American cities have enjoyed over the last three and four and five years. With that, Mr. President, I thank you for this time to talk. And I'm ready to answer, I think, any question you or your colleagues have.

Can you tell us what community policing means to you. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Community policing, as you are well aware, is a term that became in vogue, I guess, in the middle to late 1980s. 1933 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY And it is a recognition on the part of police departments that if they are to become effective, really effective police departments, they need the support of the communities in which they work. Unlike other police executives that I've met in my travels throughout the United States, I do not necessarily subscribe to the theory that the police can't do it alone. Ideally, ideally, we should have -- and I think in Philadelphia we do have here -- strong community support for police and for crime initiatives. But I know in other parts of this country, I know in other parts of New York specifically, there are neighborhoods that have been so oppressed by crime and criminal activity, that have had such a poor relationship with the local police, whether it's as a result of brutality or corruption, or people that are just fearful to come forward, or when, in fact, they came forward to help the police, as happened in the County of Queens in New York City, a woman, Mildred Williams, came forward to help out against drug dealers and testified against drug dealers. 1934 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY She was slain by those drug dealers. In situations like that, the police will be not only naive but also remiss in their responsibilities if they think that they must have community support. Sometimes the community support will be there in varying degrees. Sometimes people are just too fearful to come out and support the police. Because, after all, they're there hours a day, facing these 11 troubles, this violence. 12 In those situations, again, in New 13 York, in those situations, the police have the 14 responsibility of going in and taking back those 15 neighborhoods and gaining public confidence so 16 that the folks can come forward and have community 17 meetings and support the police. 18 So, ideally, if we can get the 19 community support -- my understanding is that in 20 Philadelphia, it's very strong. Thanks really to 21 the political networking of the Mayor and City 22 Council, it is very strong here, thank God. And 23 even in the tougher areas, the areas that have 24 been overrun by drugs, where there is still strong community support. Well, thank God. Especially 1935 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY in those areas, we really have an obligation -- we, the Police Department -- to the folks in those communities that are stepping up to the plate, if you will, to help us out. So, in essence, my feelings regarding community policing, it's really the police and the community working in a partnership to come up with strategies to defeat drugs. They are not just the eyes and ears of the Police Department. While that's an important role they play, they're also -- I think they play an important role as morale boosters. It's very important for police officers, particularly in tougher areas, not only to get the vocal support of the community but even on a day-to-day contact with community residents, that they get the "Hello, how are you, good to see you," and that the officers respond in kind. Too often -- again, I'm not speaking of Philadelphia now, I'm speaking of my prior experiences. Too often, police officers will walk their beats or ride in their cars as if they are not part of the community, that they are somehow aliens, that they pay no attention, that they 1936 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY don't have a smile on their face or a kind word for a resident walking by. There's a whole variety of reasons for that, and not necessarily bad reasons. It's not that the police officers are somehow nasty or not interested. Sometimes they probably don't know better, they haven't been trained properly. A whole variety of reasons for them not being friendly, and they should be.

And I think I mentioned somewhere last week in those whirlwind tours that I took that I understand how cops are and I know I can speak to them as cop to cop, boss to cop. But I run, as some of you may be aware, the New York City Marathon. Mr. Street, and you'll appreciate this, and around the 16-mile mark, as you come out of Brooklyn and you come into Manhattan, and it really gets painful then, because now you've got to go up through Manhattan, up into the Bronx, back around, down through Harlem, and the hard -- the last 10 miles are awfully hard. And I'll be coming up First Avenue, and these police officers were just kind of standing 1937 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY there like statues. So I put up with that for about two years, and then I brought all my chiefs in. And I said, Listen, I am suffering out there. When I pass, they better be smiling and waving to me and saying hello. ) COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: So it's -- at least on Marathon Day, I demand that they smile and say hello. And, hopefully, it gets contagious and it catches on the rest of the year.

I can tell you, in the Philadelphia marathon, when you come around the Art Museum for the second time, headed out down to Councilman Nutter's district, you are at the 18-mile mark. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

And it's at that time when your body starts making all kinds of pains because your car's probably parked. You could see your car. (Laughter.)

And you know this is your last best chance to stop thinking injury and get off of the road. 1938 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY So I'm real familiar with how you feel around the 16- 18-mile mark. It's a little thing called "the wall" that you start hitting. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yes.

Where, psychologically you run out of energy; not physically, but psychologically. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: That's right.

You don't know whether or not you want to torture yourself any further in all of this. As a person who's run five marathons, I can certainly sympathize. Can you give us just a little bit of an idea as to what the process you'll use is for evaluating and reevaluating what is happening in our Department? We know that there are a lot of good things happening in our Department. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

We also know that people demand of us and demand of our Department -- you know, and policing, it's sort of like you either get to the Super Bowl or you don't. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah. 1939 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY

It's as simple as that. I mean, I'll never forget the Buffalo Bills. They get there, they don't win. People don't care anything about winning the Division, they don't care that some small progress is being made. They want to win and they want to know we are winning. So you can make some small progress, but as long as people believe that we're not as safe as we ought to be or as we could be, they're just unhappy, they're just unhappy. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

We recently had a team that went to the Stanley Cup. Our Flyers team went to the Stanley Cup, and the coach got fired. (Laughter.)

He didn't coach another game, went to the Stanley Cup and got fired. And I guess in politics and in government and in policing, in some respects, it's an all-or-nothing proposition. And that's what we all face. 1940 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

What I would like you to give us is some idea as to the steps that you will take to consider, whatever organization and reorganization, how long that will take, and when it is you will be able to sit down with the Members of this Council and tell us what it is we can expect. Now, you know, in times past, there has been a reluctance on the part of certain members of the department to be candid with us. There's been this attitude that, Well, yeah, you're an elected official, but some of this is -- this is like department business, and we can't tell you certain things. Well, we believe that if the 17 Members of this Council, the 17 members only, if necessary get in a room with the Police Commissioner or the Mayor or the Mayor's -- some of his staff, we think you should be able to tell us what is going on. And we will respect your confidence. If there is information that shouldn't be in the street, we will hold it. We think we have about as good a 1941 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY reputation as any legislative body anywhere in the country at anytime in the history of this City that has been able to work with the Mayor, work with the government, maintain a confidence. But we'd like to we just need to know what is going on. How long will it take you to, you know, kind of get your arms around it where you can sit down with us, tell us what you think, tell us what you think we're doing right in the City, tell us what kind of changes you think you'd like to implement so that we will know what's going on. You can tell us the kind of things that you think, you know, should be in the public domain, you can tell us the kind of things you don't want us to comment on because it could jeopardize the Department's strategy. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Mm-hmm.

But we just really want to get a feel for what kind of process we're getting ready to go through, how long it's going to take, and when we will be able to have some more specific information about what you think can happen in our Department. 1942 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah. That's a fair question, and I'll answer it in a few ways by way of example some of the philosophical underpinnings. One of the main thrusts of this Administration coming in will be to devolve responsibility for crime in this order in day-to-day policing, down to the district commanders. Now, we discovered this -- I discovered this in New York City as you set out in the early 1990s under that community policing program. After our community policing program was based on police officers getting -- working with community to solve a whole host of problems that differ from neighborhood to neighborhood, from borough to borough, and while we had some success stories, overall there were not a lot of success stories, and there was a tremendous amount of frustration. It finally dawned on us as we began to examine this, that we were being -- we, the brass -- that we were being unrealistic. And I think the public was being unrealistic in expecting, in New York's case, 21- and 22-year-old kids to solve 1943 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY these multifaceted, that somehow a 22-year-old kid walking a beat could call up the City Council President and establish a dialogue regarding lights that have to be fixed and things of that nature, or call on the Department of Sanitation, the Department of Highways, it just wasn't going to happen. They didn't have the sophistication, they didn't have the networking and a whole host of things. They didn't have the worldly view, if you will. When we looked at the organization of who was in the best position to kind of pull this off, it made sense for a variety of reasons that that rested with the precinct commanders in Philadelphia with the district commanders. They had the resources at their disposal. They had spent some time in the organization, had grown up in the organization. And by virtue of the fact that they were district commanders or precinct commanders had proven something about their ability to lead and navigate the political waters -- and I mean the political waters in the best sense of that word. 1944 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY So we vested our power. We devolved our power and authority down to the precinct commanders, not down to the cop on the street -- it would be unrealistic -- but to the precinct commanders, somebody who had the sophistication and the rank who could pull it off. And then we could also hold them accountable for crime, for disorder, and the things that bothered the local residents. So that was -- if I would say that there was one main thrust, it would have been devolving the responsibility down to the district level. That would be one of the underpinnings of this Administration. The other part was recognizing, which I mentioned earlier, the whole idea of narcotics. It's the engine that drives the drug machine -- that drives the crime machine. There's no way around it. And if you don't deal effectively with the narcotics scourge, using all of your resources that you have available, including getting help from the feds -- and I fully intend on leaning heavily on the feds. They've got -- in some cases, they have better and more resources than we 1945 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY do. And from my early contacts over the last week or two, there are indications that they're more than willing to help deal with the drug issue. That will be one of the central focuses. The other part will be over the next two, three or four weeks developing some strategies for individual crimes, strategies for homicides and a crime gun strategy, a youth strategy, a drug strategy. The timetable is -- I have a vision of a model in mind.

And my best guesstimate -- I am purposely putting a time limit, and I may live to regret this, but it's somewhere around 45 days, somewhere in the beginning of May. I'll present a -- what I consider a plan to the Mayor regarding where we're going to take this organization. And the one thing I will tell you right here and now: it will not resemble the organization that you see today.

Thank you very much. Can you comment on -- and I'm raising these questions 'cause they're in everybody's interests. But can you comment on the notion that the Police Commissioner should have a wider discretion in 1946 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY identifying top-level personnel, whether they're deputies, captains. We read a lot, we hear a lot about other cities where the Police Commissioner has wider discretion. We hear that we may have one of the most restrictive forms of organizations that exist. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Mm-hmm.

From your point of view, as a person who's worked in a department that had a lot more -- where the Commissioner had a lot more latitude, how important is that latitude? And at what point in time might you be willing to make recommendation as to where we might as a government go toward relaxing the requirements and allowing the Commissioner greater discretion in identifying people to work with him to implement his or her policies? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right. That's a -- it's a very good question. And let me see if I can't explain the different types of policing systems vis-a-vis civil service and the discretion of the Police Commissioner. 1947 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY On one hand -- not on one extreme -- but on one hand, my understanding of the Boston police, there was a tremendous amount of discretion on the part of the Police Commissioner. So, for example, Bill Bratton, who, as some of you may have been aware of, when he was -- I believe he was like a sergeant. He was taken from sergeant and made the number-two person in the organization. In Boston, they move them in out of positions from sergeant to deputy commissioner, from sergeant to chief of patrol and back forth. It's great going up, but they also get dumped back down during the Administration, so that's got problems attached to it. So that's the one extreme. On the other extreme you have Philadelphia, I think, that has a civil service system going right up to the top. And as somebody said, Timoney, you're lucky they don't have an exam for Commissioner, you would have failed. (Laughter.) COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well, be that as it may, it's a civil service system right up to 1948 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY the top. And I have nothing against civil service systems, let's have that up front. I came up through a civil service system partial. But, anyway, you have a civil service system that is exams right up to the top, which leaves the Police Commissioner no discretion. But -- and I hope I say this correctly because I'll get myself in trouble --

You can believe you will be widely quoted in your answer to this question. ) COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I know, I know. But the part that I really found baffling -- I understand civil service systems. But the part that I really found baffling in Philadelphia was the idea that you take a written test to become a detective. I mean, that just blew my mind. Because there have been very, very famous detectives in literature and in history. And my sense is, if you gave them exams, they would have failed. They have a thing called "street smarts," all right? 1949 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY They might not have the book stuff, but they've got street smarts. They've been out there, they've proven their mettle through arrests, through investigation. And that's generally how you become a detective. Whether you're an undercover officer making narcotics buys, a narcotics investigator, there is a system you can set up, a performance- based system that should lead to detective. So the idea that somehow you can take a written exam and then the next day be a detective, for me, it's just mind-boggling, all right. I don't like to keep pointing to New York but, you know, I spent 29 years there, and it's got lots and lots of problems, but it's also one or two strengths. And I think one of the strengths is the system of promotion. It's civil service for sergeant, lieutenant, and captain. But once you get up to a certain level -- and captain is that level. You know, you're middle management, you're at middle-manager level. Anything above that, you're really working closer to the Commissioner, closer to the executive staff. 1950 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY And not just me, but I think any Commissioner needs some kind of leeway. And I think the civil service system should stop around lieutenant to capital, as it is in New York. And then anything above that should be left to the discretion of the Commissioner to promote. It doesn't mean that you're just going to pick people at random. There are still systems that you can set up, performance-based systems and interviews and panels that you can set up. But the idea of making these promotions based only on a written exam or an interview, it's just ludicrous that the Police Commissioner doesn't have more discretion. Now, in the course of my meetings last week, I met with somebody who said, Well, you know, the reason why we have this civil service system is that it will prevent people like you, Timoney, from appointing incompetents. Well, I said, Why in God's name would I want to appoint incompetents, surround myself with incompetents? I mean, that's ridiculous on the face of it. Do you think I want to come here and fail? Or any Police Commissioner wants to fail? 1951 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY Do you think any Chairman of the Board of any major corporation is going to surround himself with incompetents? I mean, does the President of the United States or the Mayor of Philadelphia who get to pick their staffs surround themselves with incompetents? I mean, the statement is ludicrous on its face. I mean, I just. . In any event, I will be pushing for assistance from the Council and the good citizens of Philadelphia to somehow change that system. I am not looking to abolish the civil service system, I am not looking to abolish the unions. I grew up in the system that had a very strong union, very strong civil service. But there is a balance. There is a balance that that can be met and must be met and should be met. And the Police Commissioner needs to pick his or her own team. And if I fail, throw me out. If I fail, you should throw me out, but I should be given the latitude to pick my own team so that I can succeed. Because if I fail under your system, then maybe it isn't my fault; maybe it's your 1952 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY fault -- I mean, the system's fault.

But if you give me the latitude and give me the discretion to pick my own team and then I fail, throw the bum out.

How long do you think it will take for us to see a difference on the street? 'Cause that's where -- citizens, they're bottom-line oriented. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah. Listen, I would hope -- I would hope next Tuesday, but that would be unrealistic. But I think within a month after I would have visited every police facility, after I would have visited all police districts, all 9 16 divisions. Within a month, I will have done that, 17 I will have spoken to the officers and their 18 commanding officers. And, hopefully, that alone 19 will get something started. 20 And then I think within 45 days, as we 21 unravel or unveil this plan and go forward -- I 22 get a sense in this town that the police are no 23 different than police anywhere else. They are just looking to be led by people with a vision, by people with a plan. 1953 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY I think I know cops, I really do. I come up -- I'm very proud of the fact that I came up through the ranks and haven't forgotten where I come from and know what makes these men and women tick and know what they respond to. And, as I said earlier, regarding drugs and violence, history is a predictor. Well, as I tell people about me, you can kind of look me up. I have a history, look me up. And if history's any predictor, if I fail here, it will be the first time I failed in my life. I don't like to fail, so my sense is I won't fail. And my sense is you're going to see within 30, 60, you'll see a change. And I guarantee you that the press will be out there doing their polls, as they normally do. Do you see anything different? They'll speak to the cops and they'll speak to the public. And, ultimately, the public will be the judge.

One last question. We have in this City a Civilian Review Board, which has the responsibility, under both a local ordinance and a Mayoral executive order, the authority to investigate certain limited 1954 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY allegations of official police misconduct. Can you just comment briefly on how you feel about working with a Civilian Review Board, whether or not you've ever had one to work with in the past? And give us a sense of your feelings about these things. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah. Well, again, let me speak of the experience in New York. New York has worked with a with a Civilian Review Board my entire policing career. That began in 1966. The Board, up to 1993, while it was an Civilian Complaint Review Board that was made up of civilians and police, and the investigators were by and large police ranking officers, sergeants, lieutenants, and captains. It changed in 1993 by a referendum, and an all-civilian Civilian Complaint Review Board with civilian investigators came in. Now, there is this misconception across the country that somehow Civilian review boards and police departments are natural antagonists. I don't feel that way. It is in my best interest as a police professional, as a police executive, to 1955 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY have an effective civilian complaint review board. I need to know if I have brutal cops, cops that have crossed the lines, cops that have a history of discourtesy, disrespect, things of that nature. The problem that I have with civilian complaint review boards is I defy anyone, anyone, to point to a successful model anywhere in the United States. That's the problem. They don't deliver on everything they say they will deliver, and there are all sorts of reasons for that. Some of them I'm not sure of. Some. . My sense is that if you compared the Civilian Complaint Review Board that presently exists in New York City to the one that existed for the years prior, being tough on cops, the 18 one that was run by the Police Department by the 19 bosses in the Philadelphia Police Department 20 answerable to the Commissioner was a lot tougher 21 on police officers than the all-civilian compliant 22 review board was, a lot tougher, all right? 23 I think the investigations were better 24 because we had ranking officers doing the 25 investigations who had the same skills and 1956 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY abilities of the investigators in the Internal Affairs Bureau, who kind of had grown up in the organization and knew when an answer wasn't really an answer, knew that the truth was being shaded, could get through all the nonsense, these little dances that you do when you're doing your investigation. So they were much more effective. Having said that, here's the dilemma: There was a horrible incident up in New York back in August regarding a man by the name of Louima who, it is alleged, was beaten and sodomized by four police officers. That incident -- I was in New Zealand when I saw that on CNN. I mean, it didn't just get New York attention; it got international attention. When things happen like that happen, whether it's case or Rodney King in Los Angeles, it's very embarrassing for police professionals, no matter where we are. But getting back to the leave mea case, up until that point, up until August of last year, the people of New York, of all races, all colors, all ethnicities, were basically happy with the NYPD, with the performance. But that one incident 1957 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY shook everybody across all races and ethnic groups. It really shook them to the core, and there were cries for stronger civilian oversight and the Civilian Complaint Review Board, and they went back and forth. What I know in my heart of hearts is that we, the police, can investigate our own better and be tougher and stronger and get it done quicker. I really do know that.

If the public -- and they are in New York -- if they're clamoring out for this oversight, if it makes them feel better, they are ultimately our boss. And I went out for the first time and said, Yeah, I would go -- there's no 16 problem, I will go for it, I'll understand it. But I wanted it known up front that it may not be the best thing. But if it makes the people feel better, and they are ultimately our boss, then fine, I'll go along with it. But I want it understood right up front that there isn't a successful model that I can point to in my travels around the country and discussions with other police leaders. We've run into the problem, especially 1958 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY the problem -- for whatever reason -- of backlogs and poor investigation. And the charges will be hurled back and forth regarding, Well, the Mayor or City Council doesn't staff it up enough, there's not enough money invested in it. There's all sorts of reasons given for the reasons why they don't function. All I know is -- all I know is that, by and large, they haven't been very effective. And the people -- the people of Philadelphia or the people of New York or Los Angeles should hold the Commissioner responsible, right? And if the Commissioner doesn't take care of business, if the Commissioner doesn't do the proper investigations, and if the Commissioner doesn't take appropriate action, hold the Commissioner responsible.

Thank you very much. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Clark.

Thank you, Mr. President. Commissioner Timoney, welcome to Philadelphia. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Thank you. 1959 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY

I'd like to follow up on the question that you just answered. You say you've never seen a civilian review board that works. Can you conceive of one? What's wrong with the ones, the models that we are working with? Let me refine a little bit further. I agree with you, that the Police Commissioner is ultimately responsible -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

-- for all that happens and all that fails to happen on his watch. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

You really have the responsibility to be above even the suspicion of wrongdoing and what's wrong with police policing police that you can't ever rebut the presumption of a cover-up. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

So tell me what we can do or what any society can do to put a police review board in the position where it can both meet the psychological expectations and the real work of such a commission. 1960 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah. I mean, in essence, that question captures the dilemma. By the way, I didn't say that they never worked; I said that they don't work effectively. In other words, they may, as was the case in New York, where we wind up getting good cases where officers have done wrong. I don't know how it is in Philadelphia but in New York, there is a statute of limitations for months. So once the case begins, the 12 investigation begins, you have 18 months to bring 13 it forward to the charges and specifications and 14 ultimately to a trial room. 15 We wound up getting a lot of these 16 investigations, you know, completed at 17 and a 17 half months or with like a week to expire. Now, 18 we, the Police Department, would get the cases. Now, we've got to do our review, get our lawyers together, get ready. Because, in New York City, it's a regular trial room; you have a regular trial. There's a judge that sits there, the civil judge, and we prosecute the cases. We would run off into the problems of the statute of limitations. And we lost some 1961 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY pretty good cases because of the statute of limitations, because of the delay in the investigations. Now, I understood the folks at the Civilian Complaint Review Board, they said, Well, listen, you can't rush us. We have to do our investigation. And I understand that they've got to do their investigation, but we in the Philadelphia Police Department are the ones that have to implement the discipline. And there are things statutorily that you have to do in months. I mean, there's no 14 way around it. This is what the judges have laid 15 down. So we had this constant dilemma. 16 We sped up the process somewhat with 17 some reforms. But, again, I don't think it was 18 completely satisfactorily, and it's one of the issues that they're grappling with up there. As far as here, I have not met yet with the Civilian Advisory Board, Civilian Complaint Review Board. I will meet with them. So I am not familiar with the workings of how it works in Philadelphia. And it may turn out that Philadelphia 1962 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY has the one working model that I'm not aware of.

No. If we were, you would have heard of it. (Laughter.) COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I absolutely will meet with those people. My point in this whole thing -- I know I digress a lot. My point in this whole thing is that we are not natural antagonists, that it's in my best interest as a police professional to have a well functioning Civilian Complaint Review Board, whether it's all civilians or all cops or a mix of both. I need to know if we have brutal police officers, if we have police officers that are disrespectful, that there is going to be a good investigation and that those people will be brought up on charges. And if there are patterns developing, that we can get out ahead of those things and develop some training. And there are two types of discipline. One of them, I believe is -- the first positive discipline is training. A lot of things can be addressed by training. Then if it's so egregious 1963 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY or training fails, then you have negative discipline, which includes termination. If I had my druthers -- now, this is going to sound self-serving again, but if I had my druthers and I was setting up -- if I was God and they told me to set up a civilian complaint review board, I would have the board itself made up of all civilians. But I would use, as far as investigators, I would use -- if I didn't want to use active police officers, then I would use retired police officers of proven ability, that know how to conduct investigations. But then, of course, I'd be accused of double-dipping. You know, Well, now they're retired from here, and you got your pension from here, and now they're double-dipping. And can you imagine accusing God of double-dipping. So, I'll just. . . (Laughter.)

Thank you. When, sir, can we expect the much-delayed redeployment plan? You must have, by now, heard of it. (Laughter.)

It's the "P" 1964 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY word. When do we get the plan? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: The plan, I will be addressing all of those -- again, part of the package that I present to the Mayor will address not only not only a reorganization of the Philadelphia Police Department, not only a road map of strategies regarding crime and how we're going to address crime, but also part and parcel of this is the effective and efficient deployment of resources. That's crucial. It's crucial that officers are deployed to times and locations where crime occurs. Too oven, police departments all over this country, all over this world, are not structured, are not set up, are not organized correctly to fight crime and disorder and the fear of crime and things of that nature. You'll find -- and anybody -- common sense will tell you what anybody in the policing business recognizes, that the idea of having the same number of officers at 4 a.m. as you have at 4 p.m. is just ridiculous. I mean, things are different in those 12-hour differences. Things are different from neighborhood to neighborhood. 1965 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY The central business district obviously need police, lots of police, during the daytime. You wouldn't want the same number of cops down there at night. Similarly, in residential areas, where folks are at work, you obviously need a certain amount of police officers, but after 4 and 5 and 6 o'clock, depending on the neighborhood, you need more police officers out there. So they have to be out there when they're needed. Now, you run into clearly certain restraints regarding the shifts. There are certain rules and regulations. I mean, officers have rights also, let's be well aware of that. And so while, ideally, you may say, Listen, I'll bring the cop in -- Monday, I'll bring him in at 4 o'clock; Tuesday, I'll bring him in in the afternoon; Wednesday, mm, he can come in at o'clock at night; Thursday, it's picking up, we'll bring him in at o'clock; and then Friday, we'll bring him in at p.m. That's -- I mean, that's unrealistic. Officers have a certain amount of rights, they've got family obligations also.

Sure. 1966 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: But in the macro, we will look to shift major resources into those areas that need them.

Mr. President, my last question is: Commissioner, would you briefly discuss on our record your plan for coordinating the Narcotics Strike Force and the Rapid Response Crime Team as it relates to fighting narcotics in our City. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah, I mean, that -- I -- I will -- unfortunately, I will not discuss that right now because that's all part of -- well, it's two things. One, it's part of the planning stage; the second part is I haven't taken office yet so I haven't gotten really down into the bowels of the organization. As I said, I have vision, I have an idea in mind of how all this will happen, but those things, they will come out in due course; I would in about 45 days. And what I will try and avoid -- and this is for the media here -- we will, as much as humanly, avoid leaks and dripping this thing out. 1967 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY

Okay. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I mean, we want to come out with a plan that everybody can see at the same time and move forward.

Mr. President, I relinquish the rest of my time.

Councilwoman, that is so kind of you. That balances the rest of our time. It's a negative relinquishment. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Blackwell.

Thank you, Mr. President. Welcome, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Thank you, Councilwoman.

In this City, we are now going through discussions. And, in fact, we just had a meeting last week -- we contacted you about it -- with regard to quality-of-life issues. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Mm-hmm.

And we are concerned because it is on the table now, the 1968 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY issues from -- and I've read newspaper accounts with regard to your opinion on panhandling. And we're now evaluating what happens with homeless people and having meetings regarding, for example, locking up homeless people, which we have done on a small basis in the past only at specific locations, locking them up, even fining them for being homeless and being in a public place in Center City where they were not wanted. Most other organizations who are involved in the, quote/unquote, homeless arena feel that that is absolutely -- it doesn't serve the police well, it certainly doesn't serve the community well, and it doesn't help us to get homeless people off their feet, who then can't get a job because they have a record. And they're fined, they can't pay the $50 fine, and they can't get a job because they then have a record for being arrested in the first place. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Mm-hmm.

With regard to panhandling, we even have an organization, one of the most respected in the City, Sister Mary 1969 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY Scullion, who's even, on a trial basis, trying out a system to offer services in lieu of panhandling. So we are dealing with the issue of panhandling because we view it as a legitimate issue but one where just arrests, again, does not serve the police force or this constituency well. What is your opinion on these issues, and what can we hope to expect? And would you be willing, certainly, to hold up any enforcement if you are against these issues until you've had a good chance to examine what is happening and what interested people in this City are trying to do in this area? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well, regarding holding up any initiative, I have, I think, quite clearly said that I will spend the next 45 days not only meeting the police meeting community residents and gauging the temperature if you will fear of crime disorder things of in a nature. But the role of police in society, as I see it, is to enforce the laws of the society. In New York, homelessness was not a violation of law and although I know you read the papers -- and it's funny, when I went to England 1970 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY to give a speech or Ireland or one of those countries, they said, Oh, we know how you got the crime rate down in New York; you locked up all the beggars and the homeless, and the homicides went down 60 percent. Well, I mean, that's ridiculous on the face of it, but that's the perception that's out there. We did not in the NYPD lock up the homeless. It's not a -- it really isn't a police issue. We may be there with the social services providers to maintain the peace because at least in New York -- again, I'm not speaking of Philadelphia because I don't know it that well. But in New York, there's a certain significant segment of the homeless population that are folks that have been released, for whatever reason, from mental institutions, and are violent not only to themselves, but to anybody that will encounter them on the streets. So often, the police in those situations will be there to preserve peace and order. The panhandling issue is an issue that's a real issue in most big cities in America 1971 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY today. And I think the courts -- at least again up in New York -- have come down on the side of non-aggressive panhandlers -- this was on the subways. They've kind of wrapped it around the freedom-of-speech issue. And the police up there now are dealing with that according to the rules laid down by the court. " The squeegee pests were not, by and large, homeless people who were just washing cars for a quarter. That's what the press and some advocates would have you believe. Often they weren't. Often they were teenagers, early 20s, out there. And the idea of hustling for a quarter wasn't really the problem; it was some of the things that went along with it. For example, if you didn't give the quarter, if you didn't give the buck, you had your antenna snapped. Often it was a lone female in the car. If the window was open, a purse may be snatched; or if it wasn't open, the window may be kicked in. 1972 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY There was a whole variety of criminal behavior that went along with this aggressive panhandling that, in some respects, people coming into the city, whether it was coming in at night for the theater or a whole host of reasons, were fearful. And when we looked at the problem, when we looked at the problem -- in order to deal with any problem, you have to get an idea of the size of the problem. So we actually went around and counted the number of really aggressive squeegee people who had been dominating the headlines. Literally, for years, they, in some respects, were terrorizing certain intersections. When we actually went around and counted them, there were about a hundred.

So here you had basically a hundred people terrorizing half a million, a million people coming in on a daily basis. We tried a few approaches. Clearly, if they were homeless or needed some kind of services, we went around with the police, with the service providers and told them, Listen, this has got to stop, we're not going to allow this 1973 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY anymore. If you need social services, they'll be provided. And they said, What, are you crazy? We don't need any social services. So they would kind of get lost and then continue on their merry way, doing what they were doing. So we stepped it up and we began issuing summonses. And, of course, they took the summonses and, basically, threw them in the garbage and continued on their merry way. And we then started to arrest them and put them what we call "on line," put them in the system. I was a four-star chief at the time, and I remember going around -- because it was a pilot project -- checking. I ran into a young man about or 20, and he said -- I was talking to 18 him, I had my four stars on, and we were chatting. 19 And he said, you know, This is ridiculous. If I can't do this, if you're not going to let me do this, I'm just going to go out and commit robberies. As if, somehow, this was my choice that if I don't let him do this, he's going to go out and commit robberies. I said, Well, I'll tell you what, 1974 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY here's your choice: You can continue to do this and we will arrest you, you can go out and do the robberies, then we're really going to arrest you and we're going to lock you up and then you'll go away for a long time. Or you can change occupations. It's your choice. And that has kind of cleared up itself. I mean, do you have them once in a while? Yeah. Do you have the inebriates coming up once in a while, almost unconscious, to the cars? Yeah, but not to the extent that you've had it four and five years ago where especially the female population were terrified pulling up to intersections.

Yes. Ours generally -- we don't have that issue as much as we do homeless people in front of stores like Wawas or at various locations who certainly ask for money and that sort of thing. That's -- we don't have Citywide a big problem with them in a few locations with them trying to -- in some few locations, with them trying to clean your window. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Mm-hmm.

Ours is -- 1975 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY it's a little different here. They're certainly in the City. But let me that you and also say that we know we contacted you -- without even welcoming you here -- about this issue because we had meetings and were all ready to deal with this issue. And I certainly hope -- and based on your statement -- that you will be sensitive to just what's happening now and the big debate around it that's in the public arena now. Thank you. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

Thank you, Mr. President.

Thank you very much, Councilwoman. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Verna.

Thank you, Mr. President. I certainly want to welcome the new commissioner. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Thank you.

And I think his 1976 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY testimony has been excellent. I'm delighted to hear that we're going to have drug incentives and many -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Drug incentives, no. It's drug initiatives.

I'm sorry. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: We do not want to --

I'm sorry. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: We already have too many drug incentives. (Laughter.)

I'm sorry. I meant "initiatives." And I would just like to ask you a question or two, if I may. We have approximately 7,000 police officers. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

And when you subtract the chief inspectors and the inspectors and captains an lieutenants, etc., do you feel that we in Philadelphia have ample police to be patroling the streets? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Clearly, that's 1977 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY one of the issues I'll look at. But having looked at this issue a few months ago when Bill Bratton asked me to give him a hand, when I looked at the raw data and did some kind of comparative analysis with New York and some other major cities, it looks like, it looks like to me that there are enough officers in Philadelphia right now. But I am not a shy individual. If we need more, I will come back knocking on your door and ask for more.

I have the feeling you will. Several years ago, we had public hearings on our 911 system and the radio room. And at that time, we did send members of our staff to New York to see how their 911 system and radio room was operating. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

And our employees came back and said that they were all civilian personnel -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Correct.

-- who were 1978 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY supervisors. We presently have police officers who are supervising. In fact, I think we have several sergeants, captains. Are you also looking into the radio room? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I will be looking at everything. I will be looking at the entire Department. I'm still not fully familiar with, acquainted with all the rules and regulations regarding how police are deployed, what are the work guidelines, the union guidelines. Let me just say, I read one thing in one of the briefing papers some time ago that I found, again, quite amazing. That somehow the City had gotten permission to civilianize 130 positions. I forget what those positions were. But I just scratched my head. I thought why in God's name would I need permission from anybody to civilianize any position that I thought a civilian could handle. I mean, that just makes no sense. But, again, I haven't got into the inner workings of, the various rules that surround 1979 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY the Philadelphia Police Department. But if there are needed changes in that regard, I will put forth my recommendations regarding those recommendations. My philosophy is as follows: Anytime we can get a civilian to replace a well-trained, armed, uniformed personnel to perform the function, then, by all means, we should do it, or strive to do it, even at the middle-manager and upper-management level at headquarters. I think one of the strengths -- as I say, the New York Police Department has got lots and lots of problems, but one of its strength is we have a cadre of middle and upper managers that are civilian that have -- I think we'd be lost without them. For example, the person that runs 9-1-1, the whole system, there are a thousand people. That's run by a civilian. Budget offices are run by a civilian. Our planning and policy and research are civilians with a spattering of uniformed. It doesn't mean you don't need uniformed people. Sometimes you need the input of 1980 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY the officer in the street regarding policies and procedures. But there is room for entry-level civilians, middle-management civilians, and upper-management civilians, in my opinion, in most major police departments. I will look at that here and that's all I got to say at this point.

Thank you.

Thank you very much. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Tasco.

Good morning. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Good morning.

Welcome to Philadelphia. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Thank you.

You have discussed the civil service system -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yes, ma'am.

-- and your desire to make appointments above the lieutenant and the captain. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right. 1981 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY

I don't know if you saw The Daily News today. There's an article 4 in there relative to political influence on the civil service system. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Mm-hmm.

How could we have some assurance that political will would not influence the decisions made by you and the promotions? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I don't know if you were here -- are you talking about -- there was an article today in The Daily News regarding transfers. I didn't see anything on promotions. But if you're talking about promotions, how could I --

Either one. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Pardon?

Either one. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well, let me take promotions first.

Sure. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: In my opening statement, I said I had spoken to somebody last week who said, Well, Timoney, if we give you and 1982 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY your likes this discretion to pick your own, team you're going to pick, you know, incompetents. Well, why in God's name would I pick incompetents? If -- and so when you're talking about political influence, there's always the assumption, well, that the politicians, or whoever they are, will send over names of incompetents. If that was the case, trust me, I won't take them. If people want to bring to my attention stars and superstars within the organizations, I will take calls from anybody, all right? But I would do my own assessment, my own evaluation of what I see as best for the organization. And if that happens to dovetail in with the wishes or the phone call from a politician or a civic leader or something like that, great. But if it doesn't, then that's too bad. I have the final say-so. And that's the -- the beauty of the position I am in, I have, as I said, from Day One, a 22-month tenure, if you will. I hope the next mayor decides to keep me on, but I am not naive. I understand that new mayors have the right to 1983 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY pick their own commissioner, I understand that. And if the new mayor wants me to stay on three months as part of the transition six months or for nine months to get through the summer, while he or she takes care of other relations in government, great, I'd be willing to do that. But I am realistically limiting myself to months. And if you think I am going to 11 surround myself with political types from anywhere 12 or incompetents, I mean, that's not going to 13 happen. So let's put that to rest. 14 On the issue of transfers, which kind 15 of dovetails, I will -- and I've met with the FOP 16 and some other folks -- as I travel around this 17 country and the world, and I've worked with lots 18 of police departments in the last two few years, 19 the two issues that surface all the time in the 20 different police departments all over the world 21 are the issues surrounding promotions and 22 transfers. And it's amazing, it's absolutely amazing the difference in the police departments ethnically, racially, country to country, all the 1984 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY complaints were all the same, that, Well, you know, it's not who you know -- no, it's not what you know, it's who you know, it's an all buddy-buddy, old boy network, all the usual stuff. And so I recognize, having come up in a police organization, that that is the prevalent view of lots and lots of people. The only way I know of fighting that perception -- in some cases, that misperception -- is by developing a career path for promotion and also a career path for transfers that is transparent. And what I mean by "transparent," that's in writing, that people know whether, they're just entering the organization, coming into the academy, they kind of know there's a road map that allows them to pick and choose, they know what they have to do to get to certain assignments. Some transfers are easy. Others are more problematic. Some transfers can be based strictly on seniority; for example, if you're moving within a bureau, for example, within the Patrol Bureau, from one district to another, it's strictly a seniority-based decision, by and 1985 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY large. Other things may come into it, but usually seniority. If we're talking about something else, some more desirous detail, whether it's narcotics investigators or some of the specialized unit, it can't just be seniority; you need other performance indicators, including panel review. But if I went -- for example, if I'm starting this narcotics initiative and I want to -- I had this discussion last week with Commissioner Johnson.

If we're starting a narcotics initiative and we're bringing extra people on board, we're not just going to take people that are thrown at us, that, okay, we need a hundred, here's a hundred. Hold on, time out, let's look at this hundred, let's see what they've done. Do they come from the type of background that's going to indicate that they're going to be able to get out there and fight narcotics seriously? Are they self-starters, are they motivated? Do they know what they're doing? Do they have a good arrest activity, summons activity? Have they worked in some of the tougher precincts? 1986 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY All of those variables come into play when you're making a decision regarding transfer, for example, from a district into a specialized unit. And as much as humanly possible, they will be transparent, people know will know how you get there, and we will have a career path set up.

Thank you very much. We have in Philadelphia the community policing. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Mm-hmm.

How much involvement in that process would you accept from the community? And how has it worked in New York? And to what extent has the community been involved in making recommendations on the deployment of police or specific kinds of programs for the community policing patrols? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well, there are two issues. One of them has to do with community policing. And I think I had said earlier in my opening statement regarding community policing that it's ideally, ideally, you get as many people 1987 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY in every community -- particularly the distressed communities -- on board, helping out as best as you can see how, whether they're the eyes and the ears, the boosters, the cheerleaders, that's great. It may be unrealistic to expect it in certain neighborhoods that have had a bad experience with police officers or they're just beat down by crime and criminals themselves. So the more community input, the better. I've got no problem with that. I will meet with any group, at any time, anywhere, let's have that right up front. I've got no problems with that. When it comes to deployment of police officers, you all hired me, I'm the expert, I'm the professional, I'll make those decisions without -- without -- not political interference, but I understand that people -- If you left it open to everybody in Philadelphia, everyone would like to have a cop not on their block, but right in front of their house. Well, you may or you may not need a cop right on your block or right in front of your 1988 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY house. I think myself and my executive staff are in the best position, we are the police professionals. We will make deployment decisions not as we see fit, but based on a rational, mathematical model regarding crime, the incidence of crime, disorder, the fear, and a whole host of variables that come into putting this model together. So, again, deployment is our purview.

The other question I have is: What was your experience with combining the police, the transit, and housing police? What were the advantages and what were the disadvantages? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah, that's a very good question. The transit and housing police, prior to 1980 in New York City, were clearly distinct and separate police departments, and there are always problems regarding turf; in some cases, almost fist fights between the police officers and transit cops and police officers in the NYPD and housing, petty jealousies, a whole host of things. 1989 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY We began, I guess, in the early eighties, 1981, when we finally started rehiring police officers after a six- or seven-year period that we hired no police officers. When we began the rehiring of police officers, we put the transit and housing police officers and the regular NYPD, they all took the exact same exam, they all went to the academy together. And then, at the end of your six months, some went to the NYPD, some went to transit, some went to housing. That broke down a lot of institutional barriers because, you know, a week later, I'm out in the 17th Precinct, he's in some housing district, we meet on the job. We were in the academy together, we know one another. So those things were broken down, which, in some respects, lay the groundwork for the eventual merger, which happened, I headed up in the beginning of 1994 but culminating in 1995 where we took and merged both the housing and the transit and part of the NYPD. So the NYPD went from 32,000 to 39,000 cops literally overnight. The advantage of that, having been a patrol cop and a sergeant and a lieutenant, I can 1990 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY remember incidents going on, shootings in housing developments where I would show up as the patrol sergeant, two of my cops would respond. I would show up, the Housing, their two officers would respond, their sergeant would show up. So it was, Oh, okay, well, we have a homicide. Well, we have to get the detectives down. So our detectives show up, their detectives would show up. And they'd be standing around looking at one another, everybody afraid to hurt one another's feeling, who goes first, who's really in charge. Well, we better get a captain out here, he'll make the decision. So we call our captain, they call their captain. So now we have two of everything, you know? And, God forbid, the shooting should happen -- if it's a shooting, it should happen in the housing development and the guy that does the shooting runs away and then he goes down into the subway, then we get three of everything. Everybody's just kind of standing around, watching one another, afraid to hurt one another's feelings. So you had this duplication and 1991 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY triplication of effort, if you will, that was reduced. There is now one police department, there is one sergeant, there is one team of officer, one set of detectives that show up and do a fast and much more efficient job. So, I think overall, it benefitted us. The down side was that maybe, I'm not sure, the jury is still out on that. There was a feeling on the part of the subway ridership that if these transit officers became a part of NYPD, that somehow, they would lose their affinity, their dedication to duty to the transit riders,, that the police officers in the housing developments would somehow no longer identify with the residents of the housing development and some of their special needs, especially in some of the tougher housing developments, that somehow, given their druthers, they'd just as soon come out of the housing development and walk, since they were now New York police officers, walk in other blocks as opposed to patroling where they want. The way you get around that -- not get around it, but the way you ensure that not happening is really close, strict supervision, 1992 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM.

JOHN TIMONEY holding the supervisors accountable, holding the captains accountable to make sure -- and then going out and meeting with community residents and find out if what they were afraid was going to happen is in fact happening and making sure you take corrective action. So the jury is still out in that particular part.

Were they all part of the New York general fund? Were they paid by the City of Philadelphia (sic)? How did you work that out? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah. The New York City Police Department was obviously paid by New York City. The interesting part was, New York City transit police were ruled and owned by a semi-state agency there, which is, you know, the Transit Authority, which is a subsidiary of the Metropolitan Transit Authority. But New York City paid the bill. We paid the salaries but they controlled another institution, another semi-government agency controlled the police officer. That actually wound up to be a bargaining chip used by Mayor Giuliani. When people were opposing the merging, 1993 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY he said, Fine, I'm not going to pay 'em, you pay 'em. So that kind of sent shock waves throughout the organization. And then with the housing, there was always the issue -- a lot of the housing police officers' salaries are paid through grants -- and I mean big grants -- from HUD. Obviously, we went down to Washington and met with HUD officials. And that money would still come forward, but we had to maintain our commitment. Whatever those commitments were prior to the merger, we had to maintain them after the merger. And those commitments, by and large, have been met.

Okay, I have one other question. We have many police stations in a number of communities throughout the City. How do you feel about many police stations and keeping them? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I know there are ten and, I think, another one on the way. I have -- overall, I support the idea of a mini station. I just have some concerns. I'm not going to echo those concerns now because 1994 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY I'm going to spend, as I said, the next 30 days or so visiting all police institutions. And I'll look at them and I will check them out. The one caveat I would offer up -- and I think I mentioned this to some Councilmembers last week. What I don't want the mini stations to become our hangouts for the police officers. There's a kind of herding mentality that happens with cops. So I want them, I want police officers patroling; patroling their neighborhoods, patroling their blocks in the cars, the whole bit. So that that's my only -- it really is my only concern is that they don't become hangouts. And if that's not case, then fine, then we've got no problem. Then the benefits outweigh greatly any disadvantages. So that's the only concern. And I made a mistake. There's 29 mini stations and 10 or 11 mobile. So we'll look at that.

I have one final question. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Is that the final final one? 1995 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY

I think this is the final one. I have a lot of them but I'll make this the final one. When I first came on board, I introduced legislation to help control the whole issue of abandoned cars. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

And we still are having problems with abandoned cars in the neighborhood. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

And some problems we have with the salvers who have been hired to remove the abandoned cars. And you may not have an answer about that today. I just want to bring it to your attention that it is a problem. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well --

And we need a better system to remove abandoned cars from the streets. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I mean, anything that helps clean up esthetically neighborhoods really helps improve the perception of crime, this whole idea of the quality of life. There's 1996 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY nothing worse than abandoned cars on city blocks. It just -- it really gives an indication that really there's nobody in charge, that nobody cares. And it's not a minor -- in my opinion, it's not a minor issue; it's a serious issue. And whatever needs to be done to get the tow companies much more effective, much more efficient. And whatever we can do in the Philadelphia Police Department to help in that situation, we will. I know the system we have in New York, it's not perfect, but I know that system. And if there are some parts of that system that we can employ here in Philly, then I will clearly take a look at it. But I could not agree with you more regarding the abandoned autos.

Thank you very much.

Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Fernandez.

Thank you, Mr. President. 1997 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY And welcome to our City. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Thank you.

Is it "Commissioner Designee Timoney"? First, I just wanted to go back. You had mentioned earlier maybe citizens would actually, if they had the choice, like to have an officer in front of their house. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

That reminded me of -- probably you could count me out on that one, I'm more concerned about the quality of policing. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

Because it brought to mind -- we live in the neighborhood where there was the first MOVE confrontation, where I think -- it felt like forever, but it was at least six months if not a year, there were officers stationed sometimes two at every corner. We live on a corner house, so there were always officers out in front of every house. On Christmas Eve, I went up to the third floor where we had hidden the kids' 1998 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY presents. And when I went to try to get into the room, the door locked was locked. And I thought, What's going on here? Finally we got in and found out that someone had crawled -- it's on a corner property -- crawled along a little third-floor little area to walk in, had crawled all the way around, broken a window in the front of the house, and had been in the room, I guess, drinking and smoking and making themselves at home on Christmas Eve. So in that case, an officer or several officers in front of the house did not necessarily make it safe, so I'm more interested in the quality of policing, which I think you are too. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yes.

I did want to note that you started off your comments today saying what you -- how important you thought it was for the Police Department as a primary function to be focussing on the drug and narcotics trade and really focussing your skilled and talented resources to go after the violence and the very negative effects of the drug business in our City. 1999 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY And so I certainly support that. And then I know, from a lot of the other conversations, that you're very interested in the quality-of-life crimes. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

Which when some of us in this Council started to deal with them, some critics would say, Well, why are you worried about those petty little things instead of really worrying about the drug business? My response is -- and I'm sure yours is -- you can do more than one thing, you can do both. And so on those quality-of life-crimes, I'd just like to note and call your attention to the fact that the Police Department here in the City, last February, started to crack down on motor vehicle drivers who were violating the rights of pedestrians and endangering their lives. And there's been some dramatic results which, the year before, we'd had 60 pedestrians killed. This past year, it dropped very dramatically to 41, which is the lowest number since they've been keeping records on it. 2000 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

So I think that's been a very successful part of the police activity here. And there had been education for years, but what made the difference this year was, it was education coupled with the police enforcement. So I think there has been important progress here, and I would trust you would continue that. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Mm-hmm.

I'd say the third part of policing is the prevention piece of it. And I think, in our conversations with you when you met with Council a couple weeks ago, you also noted that that was a very important part of your overall strategy, to try to prevent crime before it happens. And I'd like to call your attention to something that, again, came out in some hearings here in March, about what the police had been doing in terms of trying to prevent truancy. And that, in fact -- or, actually, it's preventing crime by kids who are truant. 2001 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY And it's my understanding from the testimony of the Police Department in those hearings that for the last year or so, two officers per division have been deployed during those school hours, who round up truants, take them back to their school or back to their home. And that in the Northeast District, where they measured the effect, there had been a 50 percent drop in car theft during those hours, and a 40 percent drop in overall crime. So, again, I think there are some good done that have been done in the Philadelphia Police Department, and I hope you'll take a careful look at that and maybe even see if more should be done if it's been that successful. What I did want to ask, however, was I had heard that you may have a different view of the role of 911 and the response to 911 than we had been led to believe. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Mm-hmm.

I think for a while here at least, sort of poplar knowledge, one measure of the success of the police was how quick was the response to 911 calls. And certainly, it 2002 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY is important, particularly after the Eddie Pollack tragedy. But could you just briefly tell us how the response to 911 calls fits into your overall strategy of policing? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah. The problem in policing is if you start to segment too much, you begin to miss the big picture. Your statement earlier that you can do two things at the same time is absolutely correct. As they say in Brooklyn, it would be even more correct if you said we do lots of things at the same time, lots and lots of things. And you find out, if you take a corporate perspective of crime, that there is a whole -- drugs is only one area, but that there a whole lot of linkage, interchange; whether it's with truancy programs, other crime prevention programs. Let me just deal with the truancy part, and then I'll get to your 911 question. Coming out the door in 1994 when I took over as the chief, I had spent 1993, which was quite a valuable year, in the Research and Planning Division, under Commissioner Ray Kelly. 2003 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY And that year away from the streets gave me an opportunity to start doing some studies and testing some theories and really getting behind the numbers regarding crime. So, for example, we looked at the crime of robbery in New York City. And for years, New York was the number-one city in America for robberies, number one per capita. Any way you measured it, it was number one. m. m. , were committed by kids under 16. We said, That's crazy, they'd be in school, they couldn't be out there. Well, obviously, they weren't in school. Then when we looked at the victims, and we found that about 30 or 40 percent of the victims were also kids under 16. So we developed our truancy policy, not to deal with the -- only with the robberies, but for a whole variety of reasons, whether they're out there using drugs or shootings, and get 'em 2004 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY back in the classroom. And we worked very, very close with the Board of Education. Our truancy, which has been to get kids off of the streets, out of the pinball machines and things of that nature, once you get it up and running, the robberies -- surprise, surprise -- began to drop. So I would look carefully at the truancy program here. And if I think we can get a bigger bang for the buck by increasing it or changing it, we will do that. On the issue of 911, where myself and Bill Bratton really, I think, looked at policing different than most chiefs of police around the nation, we viewed 911 as almost -- as almost -- we were slaves to 911. Officers would sit around waiting for 911 calls, and then they would respond. And so if it wasn't busy, they'd kind of, you know, pull over, read the paper, have coffee. They'd be kind of waiting for those jobs. And then sometimes, in the evening hours especially, the jobs would come fast and rapid in succession. You know, you'd have backlogs and a 2005 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY whole host of things. But they would somehow manage, they would handle as many as they could. And by 5 o'clock, it had quieted down. And then the next 6 day, they'd repeat the same process all over 7 again. 8 Well, as I envisioned it -- and we did 9 it in New York and we will do it in Philly -- we 10 have a moral, legal obligation to respond to 11 priority-one calls as fast as humanly possible, 12 whatever that is. Nobody knows what the correct time is. But there are other things that impact on 911 calls, stuff that you deal with on a daily basis, whether you want to call it quality of life or drug dealing, and I'll just give you some examples.

If you have open-air drug sales going on at some corner in West Philly or North Philly, the folks that live in those areas are going to be calling 911 on a daily basis, sometimes a couple of times a day. And the patrol officers will roll up, and there's very little that a uniformed officer 2006 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY by himself or herself can do in regards to narcotics trafficking while they're in uniform. It's extremely difficult. However, if we send up our narcotics officers in plain clothes with the whole team and we take out that block -- and I mean take it out and close down it for good and then put in a uniformed presence -- that will reduce the number of 911 calls that will be coming in, the repeat calls, which are the calls that really bog us down, the really non-emergency ongoing quality- of-life calls that wind up bogging down the system. And so things of that nature, we will do to help reduce the number of calls going into 911. And also getting our officers much more proactive. On the prevention end, which you mentioned earlier, prevention is an interesting concept theory regarding policing. Most people, even in the profession, but clearly outside of the profession, most civilians, you ask us, Well, how do police officers prevent crime? Well, you know, you put cop on a beat. Well, that's great. You 2007 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY know, it sounds okay. Once the cop's there, nothing's going to happen. Well, in this respect, I view policing as almost like farming. And, you know, I'm Farmer Timoney and I call policing on the block just like scarecrow policing. I put a cop out on the block 'cause I'm a resident and it makes me feel real good, right? And I can sleep at night because the cop is out there. And if I'm the farmer, I put out the scarecrow, and I can go to bed at night because the scarecrow will chase the crows away, and I'll be able to till my land and get the produce out. Unfortunately, uniformed officers may or may not be the best at preventing certain crimes in certain neighborhoods. And uniformed may not be the best strategy. It may be that if it's a drug condition, that all the uniformed officer will do, as he or she passes by, they'll cease their activity, and once they go around the corner, they will continue their activity. Or if there are two guys involved in purse-snatching, and they know there's a cop in 2008 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY this block, they'll just go around to another block. They will change their strategies. We have to be able to change our strategies. One of them -- as I say, an officer on the block makes everybody feel better but may not be the best way to spend the resources. Just like the farmer or the scarecrow setup will get away the scarecrows (sic), their crops can be blighted by weather, cold, rain, by a blight in the land, worms, things of that nature. There are all sorts of ways of killing a crop. And so the farmer not only needs the scarecrow, the farmer needs maybe an irrigation system, a heating system. He may need some kind of chemicals to kill whatever blight is in the land. There are all sorts of ways of getting this crop to be successful at the end of the growing season. Similarly in policing, you may feel better with the cop in uniform on your block. It may not be the best thing for you. It may be that we want some detectives in there, it may be that we want some narcotics officers in there. We need to have in our little bag of 2009 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY tricks a whole host of strategies dealing with the crime from neighborhood to neighborhood. And that's kind of how I view it. And that's how we will tackle it.

My last comment was on the Police Civilian Complaint Advisory Board.

Excuse me, Councilwoman, when you get to the three last questions, this is your first last question. (Laughter.)

Just kidding.

Just a comment. I would like to suggest that perhaps a goal or something to look at would be to try to have the complaints so few and the messages so clear in the Department about what will be done for officers who do step over the line, that in some ways, the Police Civilian Advisory Board would have very little to do. And I bring that up because when this Council and this Administration came in to office, we had this new State authority, the PICA 2010 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY Authority, that was to stand over us and make sure we did a good job with the budget. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

And if not, they would intervene. I think this Council and Administration works so effectively together to deal with our budget problem, that basically the PICA Board is almost irrelevant, and they have very little to do because we're doing our job. And I would think that to me would be the best goal instead of arguing over whether it should or shouldn't be there or whether it's the best or worst model in the country, I think the goal and what I would like is to have so few complaints and to have any complaints that are legitimate and really need to be dealt with would be so clearly and swiftly dealt with by you that trust in the Department and officers and civilian trust would be restored. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Mm-hmm.

And we'd still probably need it as check, but it would not have that much to do. I think there have been issues. And, 2011 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY again, I urge you to talk, as you said you will, with the members of that board. I don't think it's been allowed to function with the kind of respect that it deserved. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah. Uh --

Thank you. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well, thank you.

Thank you very much. The Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter.

Thank you, Mr. President. Mr. Timoney, on this same point, earlier in the testimony, in response to a question asked by the Council President, you made reference to a concern about the lack of successful models. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Mm-hmm.

Do you have any information or, have you had any contact with the Police Advisory Commission here in Philadelphia? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: No. As I said earlier, that I plan on meeting with them. And I think it was Councilwoman Clark who had asked the question. 2012 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY And I said, Well, I hadn't met with them. Maybe they're a lot more successful than, for example, the one in New York and other parts of country. And she said that she didn't think, but I will not be swayed by that one way or another. I will meet with those folks. And whatever I can do to help them, I will. My point in this whole issue is I do not subscribe to the theory that some people put forth that somehow there's a natural antagonism between review boards and the police chief, that somehow our goals are different. They're not. It is in my best interest, if there are brutal cops or corrupt or cops or cops that are disrespectful, that those officers are highlighted. If there are patterns developed, that I get on top of all of these things. It is not in my best interests, it is not in the Police Department's best interests that these folks aren't brought forward and dealt with swiftly and straightforwardly.

What's your measurement of success? How do you define "success" in this realm? 2013 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: That's -- that is -- believe it or not, that is a terrific question only because nobody has come up with a satisfactory answer to that. How do you measure success? I speak to academicians all the time, and they talk about the, you know, performance-based systems and you set them up and here's how you measure success. They look great on paper. Except they often don't take into account the -- they don't take into account human nature, not just the policing but in any institution. Most police bosses, most civilian bosses are not confrontational. They're not going to -- they're not going to tell the person, look 'em straight in the eye and say, Listen, you really are below standards. You know, they're not going to put it down on paper, they won't, they just won't. There's a tendency for everybody to rate everybody meet standards usually above standards. And when we have a system like that and it's -- there have been textbooks written on this whole issue. When you have systems like 2014 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY that, they almost become useless because it's impossible to discern who is really well above standards and who isn't.

Well, I guess I'm intrigued, then. If you say that there are no 7 successful models but you can't define "success," or you believe that it is virtually to make that kind of evaluation -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

-- then I do have to question your analysis that there are no 13 successful models. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well --

Do you think there are successful Internal Affairs operations all over the country? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Oh, absolutely. No, we're talking about two different -- I thought you said personal evaluation systems. I thought that's what you were talking about.

I was talking about civilian police review boards or the Police Advisory Commission. That's what we've been talking about. 2015 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah. Well, I mean, on that issue, the success would be -- the ultimate success is how people feel about it.

Right. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right? Do they feel it works, do they feel they get a fair shake?

And, apparently, most people across the country don't feel that their Internal Affairs Bureau Division, Department in their various police departments are not working in their best interests. That's why there are so many of them across the country. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: No, but I think. . . I would put up the New York City Police Department's Internal Affairs, the one that was set up under Commissioner Kelly four years ago, I would match that with any investigative unit in any government entity anywhere in the United States. So you could set up --

Unfortunately for you, Mr. Timoney, you're not in New York. 2016 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well, fortunately for me is that I came from New York and I helped set up the system there, and we will set up a system here that I guarantee you will be second to none.

Okay. I'd appreciate your cooperation with the Police Advisory Commission here in Philadelphia. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Based on the tone of that question, you make it sound like I'm not going to cooperate with them.

No. 14 COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Okay, because I said right up front that --

I'm saying I'd appreciate it. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Oh.

I'd appreciate it. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: You have my commitment ahead of time.

Great. You said earlier that you're not in a position to talk about current deployment or future deployment 2017 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY because you want to have an opportunity to review what's going on here in Philadelphia, I assume, after you're sworn in. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Mm-hmm.

We have police 7 districts and you've referred to them earlier. 8 COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right. 9

Do you have any 10 concern about the size of police districts? And 11 you've obviously worked in New York, and I think 12 there are 70-some -- 13 COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: 76. 14

Yeah, there are 15 70-some districts up there and other police 16 districts across the country. 17 Is size of district a concern? Or is 18 it the actual number of officers that are working 19 in the district compared to the amount of crime in 20 the district? 21 What if any of those factors is a 22 critical factor? 23 COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well, there isn't any one factor; there are a whole host of factors that come in -- geography, population, 2018 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY crime rates, types of crimes -- that go into developing a model of what in fact are the right number of officers for a given district. When you get down to geographic size, just the few days I've spent there and going through them, clearly, it's similar to New York and similar to most police departments around the country and big city areas. You've got precincts that are geographically large, some that are medium, some that are small. You have got to come up with the best plan, sector plan. The size of the precinct is maybe deceptive and may lead to misinterpretations of how the policing service is delivered. A more accurate barometer, I think, is the activity within each sector. So one of the things we will do here, and this one I'm not sure about how long it will take. We're trying to do for the first time since 1972 a work load analysis. Because, clearly, this City has changed in the last 25, 27 years. And so at a bare minimum, we will look at how work, you know, police work, arrests, radio runs, and things that nature, how it is 2019 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY distributed across the spectrum. But, again, that's just one of the many variables you take into consideration. I could go on and on and on, dealing with such things as troop factor and all this other nonsense, but that's for private meetings.

Okay. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: It's rather mundane stuff.

What are your three major priority areas right now? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Oh, I would think the number-one issue, by far, is the issue of drugs and violence surrounding the drugs, the proliferation of guns. For example, I said earlier, most major cities in this country have seen a decline in the homicide rate over the last four, five, six, seven years. Philly and Chicago have not. But even more interesting is --

Why do you think that is? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well, let me get to the second part. 2020 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY More interesting is that in 1990 in New York, when we had our all-time homicide rate, we had 2300 people killed. It was astronomical, it was like a war. When we did the homicide analysis, fully 75 percent of the homicides were committed by guns. They're readily accessible. That number, that 75 percent figure is down -- don't hold me to this, but I think it's in the low 60's the last time I checked. In Philly, it's 81 percent, and it remains at that figure for these couple of years. And, my God, four out of every five homicides in this town are committed with guns. And, you know, guns go hand in hand with the drug trade they're inextricably linked together. I think guns in this town are a serious issue.

So what would you do to reduce the number of guns on the street? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Again, I'm not going to do this piecemeal fashion. We will come out with a whole strategy. I'm not going to start discussing the specifics of the plans. 2021 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY We will come out with a plan that comes out with a strategy not only for the drugs, but for robberies and homicides and gun trafficking and truancy and a whole host of things.

Okay. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: As far as the other priorities, that would be number one. And, clearly, the quality of life. And I'll be in a better position, I think, after spending the next 30 or 40 or 50 days meeting with various community members to gauge the temperature on the whole issue of quality of life from neighborhood to neighborhood because, as you're well aware, it changes from neighborhood to neighborhood where things are important to folks. And I think we've got to be cognizant of that. I think, by and large, if you speak to the average person, it's the stuff that really bothers them the most. This is the things -- you know, shooting and a homicide is traumatic and dramatic, but it's here and gone. But the quality-of-life issues are things they face every day, the low-level drug-dealing, or whatever it would be, as they 2022 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY leaf their house to take their kids to school in the morning. These are the things that bother them on a daily basis. So quality of life is clearly a priority. Then within the Department, there are two personal things that I want to accomplish before I leave, if you will, my legacy. One of them has to do with developing a career path, which I mentioned earlier, not just for senior management but for officers from the moment that they hit the academy, that they have a road map of how they can move through the organization, how they can better their careers, including education. And then the second part is developing -- I mean really developing -- middle managers in this organization through training. I don't mean send them away to a school for two days and some seminar. I mean really investing time and money into developing middle managers, really developing the leaders of the future. And that's going to require time and money. It's going to require hooking up with some of the colleges, whether it's Wharton or something 2023 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY like that, on business courses. It's going to require us being willing to allow captains and inspectors to leave us for three months, or whatever it would be, and any other institution, whether it's Harvard or whether it's courses that are run by PERF, the Police Executive Research Forum. As I said earlier, the NYPD has got lots and lots of problems. But its one, I think, main strength is its middle bench. The middle managers have just started on the commission -- and Ben Ward, who I hope you'll get to meet next week, who is a great believer in education and training -- not just lip service, but actually investing the time and the money, Department's time and the Department's money into this so that you have a cadre of middle managers that are perched, ready to assume leadership positions in the upper echelons of this Department. That's internally what I'd like to accomplish in the next 22 months.

What are your ideas on fighting corruption? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well, I forget 2024 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY who it was. I guess it was Councilwoman Fernandez who talked about drawing the bright line in the sand so that there's no clear -- there's no 5 misunderstanding of what will not be tolerated. I will draw that line clearly in the sand. But I have looked at Internal Affairs, how it's organized in the Philadelphia Police Department. And I can tell you right here and now, I am not impressed. And that will be one of the -- well, I'm not going to give out too much too soon. As I said earlier, there will be major changes within the organization. That will clearly be one of the major changes.

Okay, I appreciate the honesty. Do you have any thoughts on -- and maybe you can reflect on your past experience. When you were a -- your last rank was. . . ? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: First Deputy Commissioner.

Okay. And did you have, I guess, an executive staff, or did you have a group people that you appointed to work with 2025 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY you, your team? I don't know the complete structure of the New York City Police Department, but -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

Okay. Can you tell us about the structure of the team that you assembled, what kind of officers? Do you have any numbers on their gender or race or any of that kind of information? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: The -- in 1994, I was chosen by Bill Bratton as the four-star chief. And at that time, I was a one-star chief, and he promoted over of my bosses, and I became 15 a four-star chief, the youngest four-star chief in 16 the history. 17 And together with Commissioner Bratton, 18 we set out to pick our team, if you will, people 19 that I had grown up with in the organization. And we put together a team. Now, it's a -- I mean it's a public record what that team consisted of, but I think we had some of the real superstars of the organization and including people who did not think like regular cops. They were somehow -- 2026 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY there are one or two of them that I could think of. They looked at the world different than anybody else. They looked at the world upside down, which I thought was kind of neat. Because there's nothing worse than insular thinking, that you think you know it all. You need the gadflies to prod you to make you more aware, to make sure that you look outside the box and look at things differently. So we had a racially diverse gender-diverse but especially intellectually- diverse lot that really ran the gamut. And I remember Bratton -- 'cause one of them was actually my best friend growing up in the organization, he was one of the gadflies. And Bratton, even to this day, he still can't figure out how Timoney and Julian, complete opposites, are the best friends. Well, you know, we grew up in the organization together, I valued his opinion. He's -- we made him "The Chief of Big Ideas" because he could think of things that no normal human being could think of, that we would never even speculate about. So it was a team like that that we put 2027 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY together.

Okay, just my last question. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Mm-hmm.

What do you expect by this time next year to be reporting as hopefully the drop in crime, between the crime rate this year and the crime rate next year around this time? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I am not sure. I think crime will definitely be down. But let me offer up one caveat. One of the things that I will look to do very shortly, in the next couple of weeks, is do a complete audit of crime in this town.

I'm sorry. I didn't hear you. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Of crime in this town.

Right. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: And there are various ways of doing that, including the 911 system, comparing it to crime reports and seeing if match up. 2028 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY And so when I get a better understanding of crime, the nature of crime, what it is, then I'll be in a better position to speculate. But if crime isn't going down or it hasn't gone down by this time next year, I will not only be surprised, I will be very disappointed. (Councilwoman Verna takes over the Chair.)

Okay. Thank you, Madame Chair.

You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilman Ortiz.

Thank you, Madame Chair. Commissioner, welcome. Welcome to Philadelphia. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Thank you.

I'm Chair of the Public Safety Committee, Commissioner. And sometimes, within the Department, we have asked for information. And, one, it has not been forthcoming. 2029 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY But then I see the same information in The Inquirer, and they publish these reports, and we haven't gotten that information. And it's quite embarrassing, as a matter of fact, when a newspaper is able to publish crime statistics, the deployment schedules, personnel, and where they're at before we in Council have even gotten that information. And I wonder if that's going to be a change, that we will get the information before The Inquirer or The Daily News gets it. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I think they're trying to deal with this problem down in Washington too, aren't they, these leaks of the press? That's a problem over there with that crew. I don't know how you stop that. I mean, for example, I think I said earlier that I am looking for about a 45-day window. I don't want to drip things out drips and drabs. I would like to come out with a comprehensive plan with some strategies. But I can't do this all by myself and I'm going to have some staff members that will be 2030 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY helping me out. And they've got friends over there. And so, even though I will try and not leak it myself, I know -- I know human nature. Bits and pieces will drip out, and you'll be upset that, Listen, I didn't get it first. Well, it's not because we didn't give it to you first. When you wind up dealing with -- once you deal with more than one person, it's no longer a secret. It's a --

Commissioner, I don't mind the leaks. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Okay.

All I want is a response to letters that we send for information. You can leak it and they can have it -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

-- but we would like to have it. The same information that The Inquirer gets, the City Council would like to get at the same time or in an approximate time frame. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: But how would I -- if I didn't know about a leak, how would I get you the same information at the same time? That 2031 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY part, I'm not getting.

In a reasonable time frame, within a letter that goes to you for information -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

-- we would like a response. That had not been forthcoming. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Okay. Let me promise you here, where I can, with all due speed, respond to your requests, I promise you I will. But I don't know what those requests entail. For example, if you're looking -- and I'm not saying you. If the Council's looking for information that may be of a confidential nature regarding, I don't know, investigations into police corruption or whatever it would be, I can tell you right now, that's not going to be forthcoming. I mean, it's a -- there are certain things that can't. Now, does that mean that The Philadelphia Inquirer or The Daily News didn't get a leak? They may get a leak 'cause there's more than one person working on different things. As much as humanly possible to get you 2032 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY the information as fast as humanly possible, we will do it. In those situations where it can't be done, I or one of my designees will get back to the Council and explain why we can't do it].

That we expect. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

We would expect information along those lines. As you go around the community, you will hear a longing for a time long past in which there was no crime in the City of Philadelphia and we had an abundance of police. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

I don't think such a time existed in my period of my lifetime here, but you will hear that and you will here a call for personnel, go back to the yesterdays of 8,000 police. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

And while having the most antiquated department in terms of technology in probably any of the largest cities in the country. Balancing personnel vis-a-vis 2033 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY technology, how do we do that? Because right now we have a per capita by personnel in a police department as large as New York, and we're going to take it along those lines. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

But we don't have, I don't believe, the technology within the system across the board that is needed. So you're going to have to make decisions. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

A thousand more cops -- because there's only a finite amount of money -- or more technology. How do we balance that? How would you begin to look at that situation? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well, that's a good question, and I'm glad you brought it up because much has been made regarding technology in the NYPD. I'm here to knock that down because the famous Compstat process up in New York is still, for want of a better term, is still antiquated in terms of technology. It isn't anything that's centralized. Those are 76 individual PC's that track crime on a 2034 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY daily basis at the individual precincts. And then it's literally hand-delivered down on a daily basis or weekly base, down to headquarters. All of the great promises that have been made -- and I find this everywhere I go, every country I go when it comes to policing. All of the great promises that have been made to police officials regarding technology, very few of them have been met. That's number one. Number two, the idea that somehow technology frees up people for patrol is absolute nonsense. The reverse is true. The more technology, often the more people you need to drive the technology, the inputting. What the technology allows you to do, it gives you better information faster so you can make better, more informed decisions. But the idea that somehow technology frees up people, whether it's in policing or somewhere else, if you find somebody that's truthful, that's honest with you, they'll tell you no, that's just what the salesmen tell you when they sell you the product, when they're selling you this great system for a few million dollars, you know. 2035 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY It hasn't happened in New York and it hasn't happened in any other major police department that I've visited over the last two years, whether it's Ireland, England, Birmingham, Alabama, Buenos Aires, New Zealand. And New Zealand, by the way, made a critical decision which, of course, now they're forced to face up to, which, of course, they're not going to face up to because as soon as he faces up to it, he's lost his job. But they bought this system for about, I don't know, 30 million pounds and promised it would take 500 less officers. Well, he's got 500 less officers and he's got a system that he needs another 300 officers to run. So now he's down 800 officers, and he's afraid to come forward. You've got to be real careful with what you say and do and buy regarding technology. It's great. As I say, it helps us do our job better, it gives us better information and the whole bit, but as far as freeing people up, that is not necessarily true. It doesn't mean you won't be able to find certain situations in small units where we 2036 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY had four or five people doing it, now the computer can do it with one or two. That's not what I'm talking about. What I'm saying is overall, technology, it takes a lot more people to do it.

You made the headlines of tomorrow's newspaper in terms of the charter change. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

And in terms of the structure. But in today's Inquirer, domestic violence, there's a story that it leads to the reason why women are killed in this City. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I read that article, yeah.

In Philadelphia, we instituted a Domestic Violence Response Team in each division. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Mm-hmm, right.

What's your opinion of that approach? And how would you approach the issue the domestic violence? I know that you have to study what we have before you make a point of it. 2037 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

I think in New York City, it's probably the same reason, but I'd like to find out what the experience is. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well, fortunately, I -- again, I mentioned earlier about an area of expertise, I mentioned about police shootings. And another one would be domestic violence. I was the architect of the NYPD's domestic policy. For the last year and a half, I served as the Vice Chair of Governor Pataki's Commission on Domestic Violence, where we went around, it was a ten-person commission, and we went around the State of New York, conducting hearings up in Buffalo, Schenectady. We even went to the Bedford Correctional Facility where we had hearings all day, where we interviewed women that are there who killed their spouses. Some real, real tragic cases. And, of course, three or four months ago, we presented a report to the Governor regarding what we thought was needed, not just in the policing but what the service agencies 2038 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY throughout the state needed to do vis-a-vis domestic violence. And so, I think, my bona fides on the whole issue of domestic violence, I think, are well established. And, again, as I said to Councilperson Fernandez earlier, we can do lots of things all at the same time. We can chew bubble gum and walk at the same time. Not just two or three things, we can do lots of things at the same time. One of the things coming out will be a domestic violence -- if the one we have here right now, the program, the strategy right here is fine, great. If it needs to be improved upon, we will improve upon it. And the only caveat I offer on domestic violence -- and this really should send the criminologists and the people who do the great thinking on these issues. New York City has had -- and I can't speak about the rest of the nation, but I can speak about New York City. New York City has had a tremendous decrease in homicides, over 60 percent over the last couple of years. So the drug-related 2039 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY homicides have down, the robbery homicides have gone down. But the one that hasn't gone down are the domestic violence homicides. Interesting enough, even though we have these sophisticated strategies, we have at least one domestic violence officer, or in some cases, depending on the precinct or the district, we have three. We have a domestic violence detective assigned to every detective squad that handles nothing but domestic violence. So we have all of these -- at least in the Police Department -- institutional efforts set up. We have a pro-arrest policy, a must-arrest policy. In this situation we've removed as much discretion as possible from the first responding officers. We have done almost everything that the experts in this area say must be done. And yet, we still haven't had an effect on domestic violence homicides. Now whether that's because -- and my sense is -- I mean, I'm not sure how much more the police can do, because in some respects, in some respects, the policing end of this domestic 2040 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY violence issue is probably the easiest. Because we have just developed, lock up the guy, and that's it. I mean, I'm only using "guy" because most of the time, it's the man beating the woman, let's not kid ourselves. It could be he or she, no, it's the man beating the woman. Our part is relatively easy because we lock them up. The hard part now is for the DA's and the judges and a whole host of service providers, issues that I'm not about to take on as far as what's the right sentence and things of that nature. We do know when we look at -- when we do the analysis of the homicides, the domestic violence homicides, it isn't that the man woke up one day and decided to kill wife. There's usually a history of intervention, whether on the part of police, the courts, the prosecutors. They are often existing or orders of protection have just expired.

So it isn't that we didn't know about it early on and that there was a lack of intervention on the part of authorities, whether 2041 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY it's the police or the courts. But it is -- in my opinion, it's something that needs to be studied further because it's -- as I said, the New York -- and my sense is -- if you looked around the rest of the nation, my sense would be the same. While we may have succeeded in knocking down drug homicides and all the rest of them, a whole bunch of homicides, we haven't been as successful in the domestic violence homicides.

Commissioner, we would all like to strive for a department that is as diverse and looks as much as the City looks. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Mm-hmm.

And we've had problems in this City achieving that goal. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

And part of the reasons is the recruitment aspects and also the aspects in terms of once the individual passes the exam, the polygraph, and other road blocks that are put in the way that really impede at times the recruitment of minorities and women and some other folks into the Department, are you going to look 2042 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY at that? The polygraph is one that really is, I think, outmoded and not used in most departments across the United States and manages to knock out a tremendous percentage of minority and young men and women from the recruitment and the police process. Are you going to look at that in terms of hiring, recruitment, and retaining? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well, let me address this philosophically first. I am committed to having, as much as humanly possible, a diverse police force that reflects the population it serves -- for very selfish reasons. It just makes my job a lot easier, it's just a lot easier if you have it that way. It's just -- trust me, having gone through the system. The benefits of having a diverse police force are numerous. Regarding Philadelphia and its recruitment strategies, I will look at that. I've actually spoken to some people on it. I will be looking at that whole issue because I firmly 2043 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. , college requirements and things of that nature -- without necessarily having a disparate impact on any minority group or females. That if you broaden and you actively and you aggressively set up a recruitment system, a recruitment unit that goes out and that does it in a smart fashion, and I mean using not just the airwaves, but going into the schools, going to the college. And, of course, there is an issue here. There's an issue here which I'm sure will be debated in Council regarding the appropriateness of retiring a one-year residency prior to taking a police officer exam. I would suggest to you that -- my personal opinion on this is that that may be too restrictive. I mean, you're automatically eliminating army bases and things of that nature. We in the NYPD had actively recruited, especially when they were downsizing. I mean, you have trained professionals, people that are well 2044 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY disciplined, have come up -- well, in their case, a military organization. The Police Department's a semi-military organization. They have -- they've cut the mustard, they've been through it all. You have a ready-made office, if you will, that just needs now some adaptation to civilian life and the laws surrounding civilian life. I think it's a ready- made pool. The other thing, Philadelphia is located between two major cities: Washington and New York. And I would not be adverse to going up to New York or going down to Washington, to the schools there, and recruiting. Well, people say, Well, you know, they're going to flood us. Well, they're not going to flood you with applicants from Washington and New York. However some of the applicants that you would get from Washington and New York, by virtue of fact that they were willing to move to Philadelphia already says something about those individuals, that they're willing to uproot their homes and leave their families and come live in 2045 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY Philly. It says something about their initiative. Now, I understand that there are all sorts of problems and parochial concerns, and I understand all of that. But I'm just giving you my personal opinion on this, that we may be, with the system that's set up now, unnecessarily narrowing the pool of potential candidates. And the bigger the pool, the better the candidates. And I think you can do it. You can do it right and you can get raise the bar, you can raise qualifications, education requirements, without having any disparate impact on any minority or group and minority representation.

And the other administrative aspects that once you're in the process, once you're in the pipeline, that there are instruments within that process that serve to really knock out a lot of individuals. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Exactly. I will look -- I am -- look, Councilman I will be looking at all of that. I am very keenly aware and I am very sensitive to those issues you've raised.

Thank you. Thank you, Madame Chair. 2046 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY

You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Miller.

Good afternoon, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Good afternoon, ma'am.

Okay, a couple -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: My god, we're almost there, you're right. We've got a minute to go and it's afternoon.

Right. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Time flies.

Definitely.

I have a question alone the line of community policing 'cause I'm still not really sure. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

I think you said you didn't really support it -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Come on.

-- or you weren't really crazy about it. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: No, I never said 2047 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY that.

Okay. Well, anyway, this is what I want to know. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

Are you committed to keeping and not closing any mini stations, stationary mini stations, mobile mini stations, bike officers, beat officers? Okay? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

All right, that's good. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Is that a question?

Yeah. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Okay, let me answer it. I am committed to keeping -- I understand the benefits of mobile stations and mini stations, I understand all that and I support them, there's no problem. The caveat that I offer up -- and I will be out there riding, I will be out there riding. The caveat that I offer up to people who say, Well, you know, that's great to have that place there. So long as it doesn't become a 2048 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY hangout.

Right, I understand. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: That was my only concern there. Bicycle cops, well, you may have read somewhere that I'm a bit of a physical education nut. I love the bike cops. I took the bike program in the New York City Police Department from about 90 cops to a hundred cops. I think we're at about 700 now. I ride the bikes myself, so I'm all for that. I mean, I think the cops look better, the community relate much better to it. The notion that I don't support community policing is just wrong. I do. I mean, I've got --

Well, I didn't that you emphatically didn't support it. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: No. 22

But you said it should be up to the police -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: No, no, no. 25

-- and not the 2049 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY citizens. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: No, I was talking about -- it's amazing how when I'm not careful with my language or I'm not very precise with language, if you know what I mean, you can be misinterpreted. What I was saying was -- and I was talking, by the way, about New York City, that there were at least two or three neighborhoods in New York City that had had a bad experience with the police.

I hear you. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: That had lost confidence in the police as a result of corruption and drug dealing and shootings.

Right. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: They had no 19 faith in the police and were not about to help the police. And I understand that. And there were other neighborhoods -- I mentioned one in Queens, a middle-class area of Queens, an African-American area, but where it was basically middle class, where a woman who had come forward had been killed by drug dealers. 2050 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY If you're a police official in that area, you better expect that the people are going to be very hesitant to come forward. Some police chiefs say, Well, you know, if the don't come forward, we can't do our jobs so we're going to pack up and go home. Well, that's nonsense. If the community can't come forward and help out a whole variety of legitimate reasons, then it's up to the police to go into those neighborhoods and take them back and make sure that citizens of the community can come forward and help out the police and become the eyes and ears. But you can't use as an excuse -- which some do, not all, some do -- that will say, Well, you know, my community is not together so that's why I can't get my job done. Well, that's -- I mean, you're looking for any excuse. And when you look for an excuse, you'll find it. There are plenty of excuses. And it's just something that, as I travel around the country, I've met different chiefs and I go to conferences. I hear every once in a while and it bothers me. 2051 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY But I probably shouldn't have brought it up because it's been misinterpreted, that I don't support community policing --

Well -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: -- when I'm just trying to be as frank as possible.

Right. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Unfortunately, as I lectured somebody the other day, my language wasn't very precise.

Right. Well, see, I don't think it was so much misinterpreted. I just didn't fully understand. Because as I hear you talk, I think what you describe as community police and what I see happening in the neighborhoods sometimes can be very different. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

For instance, do you think anti-drug marches are effective? Have they worked in other places across the country, pretty much impacting the open-air drug markets? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

'Cause those, to 2052 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY me, seem to be the hardest operations to shut down. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Okay, let me -- let's take it out of Philadelphia, let's take it out of New York, let's take it out of America. Because it's a great question about marches. In my hometown of Dublin, Ireland, it's a town that is now, in certain areas, has been overrun by drugs. Very, very surprising. The police there -- I think they're a lot better now. But back then, about three or four years ago, I don't think the police were very effective. There was a reporter who did an expose on the drug lords, and she was killed, she was executed, six bullets to the head. It looked like the police did not have the whole issue of drugs under control. The women, the police officers of Dublin, in some of these areas, especially in the housing developments, were so upset that they wanted these marches. They went to known crack houses and things like that. And while that's -- you know, it's good to see the folks are agitated and are rallying 2053 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY around and are demanding that these drug dealers be ousted, the problem was predictable what was going to happen. Certain members of the IRA, the Irish Republican Army, which is an outlawed group, joined these marchers and took it upon themselves to do what the police couldn't and wouldn't and shouldn't do. They went in and acted as vigilantes; killed some of the drug dealers, kneecapped 'em. And, hopefully, it never gets to that. But when police departments don't perform, when police departments don't meet expectations, you have what you have in Dublin. You have mothers marching and then you have people with agendas who don't care and vigilante groups, and they will go after the drug dealers and they will beat them up and kill them. And then, you know, they always take it a step further. They wind up killing somebody else. They say, Well, you know, I thought he was a drug dealer. And when you have vigilante justice, you have no justice. And so, in the main, while it sounds 2054 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY great having marches against crack houses and things like that and it looks like there's great community support, and I understand it and I understand the frustration, we've got to be real, real careful when we march down that block literally and figuratively. Hopefully, that we in the Philadelphia Police Department do a much more effective job, that those marches are not necessary, but we still need your support, you know, your eyes and ears, meetings, telling us what's going on in the neighborhoods, giving us suggestions. But the whole idea of marches, which may, you know, lead to the next step, vigilante groups, is troubling for me. And the experience, especially in Dublin, but even in other parts of this country, have been, in the main, pretty bad.

Okay, I have two more questions. While you're examining things in the Police Department, can you also examine if we can possibly get additional school crossing guards? I think we are funded for a thousand, we might need about 1200 or more. 2055 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

And the next question is around deployment. Right now -- in late 1997, a directive was set out in not all police districts but a few, or at least two that I know of. And that's regarding the deployment of police officers in public and parochial schools. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

Evidently, there was some policy put together when Kevin Tucker was Police Commissioner ten years ago, I guess. But here in Philadelphia, the police have been deployed to public and parochial schools where violence, incidents of violence are high, as a crime prevention strategy and one of dealing with the crimes, period, for at least to 30 18 years. 19 I know they were in there in the 20 1970s. My mother used to volunteer up there. And they've been all comprehensive high schools. People have said that police are not deployed to schools except in the northwest, in my district, which is the 14th and the 39th. But that is not true. 2056 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY And I understand now there's going to be a team of people from the School District, the Police Department, and other groups meeting between now and June. Because by September of '98, the police will be totally out of the schools. I just want to make sure that whatever's going to happen in one place will happen everywhere at the same time, and that the voices of the parents, the students, and the district administrators are heard, and they're also going to be absolutely included in this group that will be meeting for the next six months to figure out the policy. Did you have police in schools, deployed inside the schools? Some of these are inside and some are out. The question is inside, in New York. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

What were your methods to deal with that whole violence issue? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: They had -- in lots and lots of schools, outside, there were police officers. Then we had some officers inside 2057 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY that were involved in the drug education end and different programs, DARE, and a few others. Right now, there is a debate going on up in New York regarding the New York City Police Department and school safety officers. Now I don't know if -- do they have school safety officers there? Yeah, the school safety officers, at least in New York City, they're like a mini police department, they have over 3,000 school safety officers. There is a debate going on right now between the Mayor and members of the Board of Education and Chancellor Rudy Crew regarding adding New York City police officers either in a supervisory capacity or in an advisory capacity to school safety officials. That goes on. I understand people's concern. I mean, we did some -- not polling, I wouldn't call it. But the papers had done some polling early in 1993 or 1994 of school-aged children and regarding their perception of crime and dealing with crime. And the things they feared most of all were not in the neighborhoods, not where they 2058 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY live. It was going to and from school. I mean -- and then some of them feared even in the school. Well, if you're worried about going to and from school, and then some of them are worried in school, the whole idea of getting an education, which should be the number-one priority, all of a sudden takes a second or third priority. But there are some folks, there are some parents, there are some civil-liberties types that object to having armed officers in the schools. I understand that. But it's an issue that as far as Philadelphia, I am not familiar thoroughly with it. I am familiar with the issues surrounding it; I am not fully familiar with the Philadelphia model. It will clearly be one of the things we'll discuss over the next couple of weeks. What are we doing, should we improve upon it, should we add to it, what's the best way. But the whole idea, as I mentioned earlier, of schools and truancy programs will be central to what we do.

Okay, thank you. 2059 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY Thank you, Madame Chair.

Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Rizzo.

Welcome, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Thank you.

The school safety officers, they are the School District Police Department that, in my opinion and in a lot of other people's, they should have some police power that they don't necessarily have. And I don't know what's wrong with this mike. Commissioner, in reference to the recruiting from outside the Philadelphia area for police officers, that leads me to ask a question about your inner circle, your top commanders. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

Councilman Rizzo, excuse me, you're not being heard. (Councilman Rizzo adjusts his microphone.)

Can you hear me now? 2060 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY

That's much better. Thank you.

Do you plan on recruiting any of your inner circle, the top commanders of the Philadelphia Police Department, from outside? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I have absolutely no comment on that whatsoever.

No comment? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

Okay. Let's talk about the structure of the Philadelphia Police Department presently from patrol officer to detective to corporal sergeant, your quick look at that. In many police departments, corporals are street supervisors. In Philadelphia, they're historically inside people. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

Do you believe, from your first look at that organization chain of command that we have too many of layers of management? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I don't -- I 2061 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY really don't buy into the theory that an awful lot of people are proponents of, you know reducing the wedding cake layer. Military organizations and semi-military organizations such as police departments are -- you know, there's a military structure to them. Looking at the Philadelphia Police Department, its structure, its hierarchy, above the rank of captain, you basically have inspector and chief inspector, and that's kind of it. In the New York City Police Department, you've got deputy inspector, inspector, deputy chief, assistant chief, super chief. So there are about seven -- where there are two here above the rank of captain, there are seven in the NYPD before you get to the chief of the department, the first deputy commissioner, and the commissioner. It's not -- I mean, the structure has to make sense, obviously. But it's also the function that they perform, that you have the right people in the right places. So I'm not as concerned with the hierarchy as I am with the structure, if that makes sense. 2062 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY There are two things. One is the personnel hierarchy, from police officer straight up to deputy commissioner, that's the personnel hierarchy. But how the department is structured, how the organization structure looks right now will be very different in 45 days.

Commissioner, my final question and, I'm sure, one you can answer. Do you like the color of the police cars? (Laughter.) COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Actually, you know, I keep hearing about this poor Philadelphia fleet. I mean, I've been around the country. This fleet looks fine to me. I mean, haven't seen the backup fleet, but the fleet here, it really looks good. Now, having said that, I know there's an issue of accidents, which, again, remember the chewing bubble gum and walking at the same time? We will be dealing with the issues of R&P accidents and how we can reduce those.

Thank you, Commissioner. Welcome again. 2063 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Thank you.

Thank you, Madame Chair.