Committee Hearing, March 3, 1998

Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Mariano.

Thank you, Madame Chair. Commissioner, I have a couple questions. Last week I had the pleasure of riding for eight hours with a highway line unit. And it reminded me of when Councilman Ortiz talked about the good old days in Philadelphia. When I was -- I got out of high school in 1973, I'm 42 years old. So if there was any mischief, I'm not admitting to anything, it would have been done after I got out of high school.

Councilman, Councilman, I'm sorry. I don't mean to interrupt you, but we can't hear you, the stenographer cannot hear you.

Can we buy a new PA system? 'Cause it's on the same place that it's always on, Madame Chair.

Well, I don't know 2064 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY whether we're having a problem or --

Okay, you got it up now, Reg? If they were union, we wouldn't have this problem. Just so you know. In the seventies, I'm not admitting to anything, but when I would have been hanging on the corner -- my brother did a lot of -- more corner lounging than I did. In highway patrol, there was to men in the car, and they were unmarked police cars. Now it seems that we've beefed up highway patrol after decimating that unit in the last ten years. And there's people and they're proud and they're saluting each other and their esprit de corps is very catchy. I mean, I saluted Councilman Kenney next time I seen him. I mean, it was that catchy. But when I asked about the highway having unmarked cars, it was like, No, we don't want to go that way with policing anymore. I think a lot of people in the line units would like to see unmarked cars for the obvious reason that it's the stealth mode, just to be able to ride 2065 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY into situations. 'Cause they're strictly clearing out corners. That night I was with them, they got a stolen car, a sawed-off shotgun, two 10-year-old's walking down Broad Street at 12:10 at night. I mean, it was a great experience, it was a great experience. They could have been done more if they'd have been in unmarked cars like they'd have been in the seventies. How do you feel about that? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I think -- listen, policing in some respects is always a balancing act. I mean, there are concerns that we in management have regarding our responsibilities to supervise, manage, and control police. You think that and balance it with what I think is the more bag of tricks we have, as I mentioned earlier, I do not subscribe to the theory of policing of put a cop on every block and that's going to solve every crime. It may make you feel better, but sometimes you're going -- if it's high corner narcotics location, you're going to need cops well 2066 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY supervised, well trained, in plain clothes, to go in and take out those blocks. The more we can mix the strategies and how we go about them, the tools that we use, the better off we'll be. I will make the overall judgments regarding that in kind of a broad spectrum. But I'm going to leave that largely up to the district commanders. Whatever they think they need to do regarding crime and disorder and getting into community concerns, they should do. But know, know at the end of the day that I'm going to hold them accountable. So they better not do anything that's foolish or stupid. They better have the whole idea of serving the community, crime, reducing disorder, the fear of crime, have that in mind. And whatever you need to do that -- while at the same time handling our commitments to 911, that you do it. But it's silly for Timoney or anybody like me -- let me get this right -- down at the round house, to be dictating individual strategies for individual neighborhoods. Let's leave that up to the district commanders. I will hold them 2067 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY accountable, but we've got to rely on them. And the community -- there's no sense for community groups. I will meet with all community groups. But if they've got complaints, do me a favor, deal with the district first. If the district fails, then, by all means, come see me, because I need to know that also. But that's the issue we will be trying to develop now over the next couple of months and -- I hate that word, but it's a descriptive word -- empowering the police, the district commanders to go out and try a whole variety of things. One final thing, then I'll shut up. I think the one thing learned from the New York model -- and, by the way, it took us about a quarter of a century to get it right. So it isn't like New York is always so bright. I mean, we really messed up much more than we produced good things, but we eventually got it right by tinkering.

But where we really did get it right was this whole idea of devolving responsibility down, not down to the cop. They're really not that sophisticated, they're really not. But down 2068 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY to the commander level, the district commander, and holding them responsible and giving them extra resources and training and equipment that they need to run their districts, and then to hold them accountable. D. have been up there and have seen it. When I used to sit in Compstat, I was considered a pretty smart guy, a street cop, knew everything. I would sit there and listen to these district commanders, and I would be embarrassed because they would come up with solutions to problems, whether they got the solutions from community meetings or from just a cop on the beat. And I knew if I sat here for a hundred years, I could have never thought of that. But when we let them loose, their creative juices, their energy, their initiative, and then off to the side, when they get off center stage, they tell you the truth. Oh, you know, by the way, it was a community leader that came up with that idea or it was a cop on the beat that about that. It was amazing. 2069 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY But that whole process of getting them involved, I think, worked tremendously.

Commissioner, along those lines, last week I introduced a resolution urging the Philadelphia Police Department to look into a pilot program that worked down at the 19th Police District. And basically what it is is a pilot program where the Police Department had two off-road vehicles, to crack down on the illegal use of ATVs and dirt bikes up in my district, where most of the drugs are. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

I mean, they ride down the street and give the finger to a patrol car, knowing they can't pursue 'em. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

I have a captain in the 15th who -- I was there Sunday. He got two off-road vehicles with cars. It's amazing. Now, the magic or the bad word is "pursuit." There was no pursuit; they just figured out how to catch 'em in an area they couldn't get out. 2070 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

How do you feel about something like that? Is that along the same line, if it works in that district and that captain's okay with it -- and we have to get this -- you know, it costs some money to buy these 250 (unintelligible). COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well, no. In other words, if dirt bikes, if that becomes -- and I know they've very noisy and loud. Those are quality-of-life issues.

Right. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: And if the neighborhoods are up in arms with this stuff, I mean, it's not like some other City agency is going to respond; the police have to respond to the -- if this becomes a neighborhood concern, the police obviously have to respond. Whether it's dirt bikes, motor bikes, speeding cars, which can kill people, the police have to respond. But you had said that, well, they obviously can't chase them or pursue them. But there are other ways of skinning a cat, and leave 2071 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY it up to the cops. They will figure it out, you know. And the only thing I demand is that they do it lawfully.

And it is up to the cops. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

This idea came from two cops. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah. Well then, great.

I mean, but maybe everything will change. I mean it's amazing that two cops need to bring this to a City Councilman to get it heard. It would be nicer to bring to a captain. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Absolutely. I think one of the benefits of the whole Compstat process -- I mean, I grew up in the NYPD. And, you know, I was a cop and a detective up in the South Bronx for 12 years, and then I was a sergeant in Harlem. I never saw the Police Commissioner or the First Deputy Commissioner or any of those big 2072 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY chiefs. My God, they would never -- you wouldn't see them, they clearly would never talk to you, you never see them. Part of the Compstat process is they're involved, they're actively involved, they're there. And so now these captains and lieutenants and sergeants get to show off in front of the Commissioner and the command staff, to show their mettle. Hey, listen, look at what great a job I'm doing. And some also get to show what a great job they're not doing and get dealt with accordingly. But, by and large, it's a very, very, I think, positive experience. I mean, you get to come down and meet the top brass and get issues like that before them.

And it is a big issue because we spend -- I spend a lot of money in my district on rec. centers, and they ride right across the, you know, the freshly tilled ground, you know, the ground that was just taken care of. And my last question. We've had a lot of problems, and we've made great leaps and bounds with prostitution arrests. 2073 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Mm-hmm.

Councilman Kenney, DiCicco, and Rizzo and I gave some awards out at the 24th District last night. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

Two officers, a female officer and a male officer, from 5 Squad and 7 Squad had had 450 -- Deputy Commissioner, what's your name again? Zapile, I keep forgetting it. Italian names are hard. But they had 450 arrests on these kind of crimes. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

Our problem is when it gets warm, they'll be back. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

No doubt they'll be back 'cause the captains and the inspectors tell me, Look, Rick, this was always a good area for prostitution under the el. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

And it's a big issue to us. But we need to do other things, and some of us around here -- Councilman Kenny -- 2074 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY we've talked till we're blue in the face to get these vehicles, we want to say, "confiscated," but we don't want to be mean. Just take their cars for safekeeping until they -- until they're done going through the process of the johns. How do you feel about that? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well, the -- if you limit yourself to any one strategy -- for example, okay, I'm just going to lock up the prostitute and that's it. Trust me, the prostitute will be back the next day, and it will go on. There are a variety of ways of skinning a cat, whether it's vehicle confiscation, whether it's using reverse -- in other words, using female police officers acting as prostitutes and locking up the johns. There are all sorts of ways of dealing with this issue. The thing that I reject out of hand is the whole idea that some will purport that somehow prostitution is a victimless crime and the cops should get away from it. That's absolute nonsense. I've spent the last six months, one 2075 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY week a month for the last six months, going back to last June, in Brazil, where prostitution is legal. Well, it's not legal, it's not illegal, so it's okay. But their big concern down there now is prostitutes are getting younger and younger and younger. They're down around 13, 12. They become a bit of a tourist attraction for European tourists. But then, in the process, the European tourists are getting doped and robbed and all sorts of other stuff. So the idea that somehow, if we legalize prostitution, that there will be no 15 problems, you decriminalize it, then there are no 16 crime problems is absolute nonsense. And I'll just give you one other thing, which was kind of an eye opener to me. Late in my clear, I was the commanding officer of Chinatown, Little Italy, Soho, that whole lower-end area of Manhattan. And I had a meeting with some of my community residents early on, upon taking office. And there was one part of the precinct that was mainly, I guess, textile manufacturing. And at nighttime, there were prostitutes there, 2076 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY but it was a trucking area, it had been kind of accepted and, you know, kind of out of sight, out of mind. Nobody made a big deal of it. But this woman -- parent came to me and said, You know, it's really disgraceful up there. My kids have to go -- and it's not only one strip. When they're going to school and the prostitutes are out there at or in the afternoon -- I said, No, no, they're out there at night. She said, Listen to me, listen to me, they're out there now. So I went up, and sure enough, I mean, scantly clad, but not like one or two; there were like eight or nine of them. And there's a school on the corner, and these kids have to walk past them. So being the very cool-headed commander that I was, I went nuts, and we had cops up there trying to clean up that condition. I mean, it was bad enough at night, it's a trucking area, but during the daytime. . . I mean, you know, you can argue all you want that it's a victimless crime, that's absolute nonsense. 2077 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY

Thank you, Commissioner. No further questions, Madame Chair.

The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Clark.

Mr. Timoney, with respect to confiscation or taking your car under safekeeping or whatever means by which this taking occurs, we must always be mindful of the law and make sure that we don't do an unlawful taking. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Oh, absolutely.

So that sometimes we get really gung ho and enthusiastic about taking clearing up a problem, and prostitution is a problem. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right, right.

But nothing permits us to suspend civil rights. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Absolutely.

So we have to be very careful that we don't encourage you to do vigilante kinds of things. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

You can't rename 2078 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY an unlawful taking "taking a car into safekeeping." You either have a lawful right, with a probable cause to do so. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right, absolutely.

Or you don't. So please do not think that we are going to encourage you to take extralegal methods. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: You could encourage me all you want, but my operating philosophy is as follows: You cannot break the law, you enforce the law.

Right. Sir, you and I are going to get along just fine. (Laughter.)

I'm the one on City Council who is constantly referring to and reminding people that civil rights cannot be granted or abridged. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Exactly.

And that you cannot rename an act and give it some high, lofty title, and at the same time, step on an individual, Constitutionally-protected civil 2079 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY right. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: We have no 4 disagreement whatsoever.

Thank you, sir. Thank you, Madame Chair.

Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Tasco.

Commissioner, we have been working a lot with the domestic violence groups here in Philadelphia. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yes, ma'am.

And what kind of training do you consider crucial to police officers in handling domestic violence cases? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah. I'm sorry, I addressed this whole issue a little earlier. I don't know if you were here. I will look at what is --

Oh, okay. That's okay. If you answered that, I'll read the testimony. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah, 'cause I consider not bragging, but it's really an area of 2080 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY expertise. I was just served on the Governor's Commission from last year, up in New York, I was the architect of the NYPD's domestic violence policies. I am intimately familiar with the issues involved. So I would look -- again, it's an area that I know and I know it inside out. So I would look at the Philadelphia Police Department's policy. If it's good, we'll keep. If it needs to be improved, we'll improve it. If it needs to be changed and thrown out, we'll change it and throw it out and come up with something new. But, again, that will be one of the main things coming out.

Just one. Will police officers be able to track repeat offenders so that we can monitor them -- repeat offenses so that we can monitor the offender? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Again, I am not sure of what are the technological capabilities resident right now within the Philadelphia Police Department or within the Philadelphia justice system. 2081 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY I will look at all of that. Ideally -- for the issues, for example, surrounding whether it's misdemeanor crimes, where somebody might be eligible for what's called in New York "a desk appearance ticket" or a summons. You don't want to be giving those things out Willy-nilly to people who've got prior criminal convictions or prior arrests. Or, as we used to do up in New York, you're giving a summons to somebody who's failed to appear for the last 12 summonses. 13 And so, what it does is, it really 14 breeds contempt for the system. But it turns the 15 already-cynical police force into an even more cynical police force. So, for example, in New York City, they called them "DATs," desk appearance tickets which were issued by the sergeant to go to court. It's the desk appearance tickets. The cops refer to them as "the disappearance tickets," because they would just get 'em and disappear, nobody ever showed up. So -- but I don't know if what we have on hand here, either in the Police Department or 2082 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY within the whole criminal justice system, to track repeat offenders. But that's an extremely important part of any policy, going out and dealing with -- especially with the chronic crimes.

Thank you. Thank you, Madame Chair.

You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilman Cohen.

Thank you, ma'am Chair.

Councilman, before you ask your questions, I would just like to make a statement. Because we're running so far behind on our schedule, the Public Defenders Office and the District Attorney's Office will be rescheduled. Their testimony will not be heard today. Both those offices will be rescheduled.

What was the first one?

Public Defender.

Public Defender.

And the District 2083 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY Attorney'S Office. (Some applause.) (Laughter.)

Councilman Cohen, thank you.

Thank you, Madame Chair. Welcome, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Thank you, sir.

And I don't say welcome to all of the new people that come into assumed posts in Philadelphia. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: So I'm privileged, I assume.

But I do say welcome to you, sir. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Thank you.

What it will be three months from now, neither you or anybody else can assess. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Oh, we'll get along great.

But, I do have the sense that you're thinking about all of the 2084 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY problems and that you are not closed to discussion on almost any issue --. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Absolutely.

-- if that issue is one that a member of this body feels ought to be raised. And I commend you for that. Let me start, though, with one disagreement. I think, unless I misheard you, I think I heard you say that you hate the word "empowerment." Did I hear you say that? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: You know, the reason I said it is 'cause so many people use it. It's like anything else. They use it, they overuse it. So it's become, you know -- even though it's very descriptive, it's become overused. And that's why --

Okay. Well, it happens to be one of my favorite words. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Cool. Hey, listen. . .

So there's a diversity of opinion on that, and that's because, I think, in the community, you're only successful in getting the kind of support you need from the 2085 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY community if the people respond. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

And if people are beaten down and feel there's no hope and nobody's interested in them, that life is just a terrible thing to have to live through, and they have no 8 respect for anybody, I think it adds to the crime, I think it prevents anything from working. So I just mention that, and that's why I like the word "empowerment." I think if people feel they are able to do something, they may not always be successful, but at least they're successful in trying and in using their God-given powers to try to achieve some kind of an end. Let me go up -- and now, one place where I do agree with you. We'll have it 50/50. You said that the ultimate test of success is how people feel about something. I think you were talking about some program in the Police Department at the time you said about it. And I think that's generally the case. I think if people feel good about the City, if they feel safe, because sometimes people feel safe when the statistics indicate they ought not to. 2086 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

And sometimes when the statistics indicate that they ought to feel safe, they don't, they feel terrified. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

So that, basically, we're trying to create what people understand or perceive to be a safe city in which they live. And so I think that analysis of yours, I'm in full agreement with. Now, on specific things. Do you think, say, six months from now or a year from now that people will feel safe in Philadelphia? Do you think they'll have that perception no matter what the statistics say? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yes. Because you've actually hit on a very good point. In New York, beginning as a result of this epidemic of crime in 1990, we wanted -- Mayor Dinkens went to City Council, they passed a special tax, and we hired -- oh, I don't know -- 6 or 7,000 additional police officers. It would be like taking the size of the Philadelphia Police Department and adding it to the NYPD. 2087 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY And it was great to have them, but people still felt unsafe, even though crime had actually started to go down. But there was a feeling that it was unsafe, they were not safe. And it's hard to understand why. But one of the things I came up with, and when I spoke to people, the best that I can come up is they love seeing police officers out there in uniform. And that works, you know, for a couple of days or two. And they see Timoney walking by and, you know, and he's having his coffee and he's walking by, but they don't see Timoney doing anything. So they like to see the cops, but they also like to see the cops doing something, getting out there, challenging drug dealers, moving them along. Not just walking by or the drug dealers, you know, stop plying their trade till the officer turns the corner and then continue. They want to see officers doing what officers are paid to do; going out there and confronting criminals; if it's a speeding car, pulling over the speeding car; chastising, or if necessary, giving a summons. 2088 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY So they don't want to just see police officers; they want to see police officers doing something. That's what they get paid for. There's nothing worse, there is nothing worse than when you speak to citizens, especially when they see cops in a patrol car, drive by -- and these gentlemen will attest to it, they hear it all the time -- drive by a drug location and do nothing. It sends all sorts of bad signals as well, like the cop doesn't care or the cop's getting paid off. And they are -- because the cop's not doing anything, they are allowed to come to any conclusion that they want to, all right? Whereas, if the police are out there confronting the drug dealers and other law breakers and doing their job, there's only one conclusion for the average citizen to reach: and that's the cops are doing their job. There is no other guessing game out there.

And, therefore, you feel that people in addition to feeling safe, there will be a corollary feeling of police presence being there? 2089 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Exactly. Because that's what make them feel safe.

Yes. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: It's not that I don't just to see them, I start to see them.

I agree with you, because, back in 1968, which was the first year I entered this body, I made speech after speech about the importance of what then -- we didn't have the notion then of community patrol, but of retaining beat officers. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

Because they were figures in the community. The community got to know them, they controlled the kids. The kids knew that sometimes they feared the police officer more than the father because the police officer might go to the father or the mother and create havoc with the youngster at home if the youngster acted wrongly. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

And I was kind of laughed away constantly, because there was new technology, the concept of motorized police. And 2090 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY they would be able to go through the community, you know, many more times. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

In fact, maybe they did, but nobody ever saw them, as you said, riding by where there were activities. They were, you know moving always, never stopped to do anything so we're heartened by your concept. Did you get a chance to make an analysis or have an analysis made of the Philadelphia Inquirer study of crime statistics that they reported about a week ago where they said they readjusted all of the statistics and they find that, in fact, Philadelphia's much safer than it was reported by statistics to be? In fact, it ranked very close to New York. And there was another city. Philadelphia was the third of the ten major cities in safety and not far removed from New York. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

And they did it with the same statistics. Instead of using the time when the police dealt with the problem, they used the time when the crimes actually occurred. 2091 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

And they found that in the last year and a half, Philadelphia's crime rate had dropped sharply. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

Did you see that study? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I saw it.

You may not be ready to comment on it now. But if you are, go ahead. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well -- you're right. Listen, I saw the study, and here's my only comment on it: I mentioned earlier that when I come in, I will do a complete audit, my own little audit, and I'm not going to give you the details of that. But there was a ten percent, I believe, decline in crime, and that's great. Anytime you have that, that's terrific. But, unfortunately, there wasn't a decline, a significant decline in homicides. There hasn't been any significant decline in homicides over the last six or seven years, both 2092 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY here in Philly and in Chicago and in maybe one or two other cities that I'm not aware of. But most major cities, New York, L.A., Houston, Dallas, the big ten, have all seen dramatic declines in homicides over the last four and five years. Why is Chicago and Philly not following the national trend? Those are some of the things we ought to look at. I don't know what the answer is, I know what the questions are, and I'll get the answers. That would be the difference between me and other people who know all the questions but not one answer.

Well, we have a part of an answer. Philadelphia and the state of Pennsylvania, within which Philadelphia is located, sometimes act strangely. For example, Philadelphia passed an anti-weapons law. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

The State legislature, in its great wisdom, thinking of the great rural areas that exist say we don't need it, we love to go hunting. 2093 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

And, therefore, we ought -- you know, I don't know why one relates to the other, but they said because we love to go hunting, when the hunting season opens, so much, we ought not have any controls on assault weapons. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

And they said Philadelphia doesn't have any special problems, just like the rural areas that we have. And so we're thwarted. And I understand the number of legally-issued weapons has tripled in the last year, year and a half since that Supreme Court decision. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

So you have a body here that will be ready to act in whatever way we can act to assist you in the problem of the homicides, but I think one of the real reasons for the homicides is fully attributable to the State legislature and to the Governor who apparently don't understand that different -- You even understand that different 2094 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY neighborhoods in one city may have entirely different problems that require different methods of dealing with it. But in the state of Pennsylvania, apparently overall, the legislature believes that we don't need any limitation on weapons. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well, I'm not going to make any jump to a direct or indirect correlation between what happened in Harrisburg and the homicide rate in Philadelphia. But what I will say is that people, they basically ought to be ashamed of themselves when they start -- underneath whatever the amendment is that covers the right to bear arms, the second or third, whatever one it is. The whole idea of wrapping everything in the right of hunters to somehow make a huge stretch and leap to AK-47's and 9-mm's and Intertechs and all this high-falutin' weaponry that drug dealers in these neighborhood are carrying, the people that make that argument up in Harrisburg just ought to be ashamed of themselves.

Well, to the credit of the -- 2095 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: And, by the way, not only are the citizens endangered, as we see on a daily basis, but also the police officers are endangered by these weapons, these automatic weapons. So, absolutely, there's no rhyme or reason or rational justification having to do with hunting and AK-47s and Intertech 9's and Uzzi submachine guns and all this other nonsense that goes on.

Well, to the credit of the Fraternal Order of Police here locally and to the Police Department, they did work very hard to try to get this limitation in Philadelphia through the court hurdles and through the legislative hurdles, but we all failed on that temporarily. But we hope to, down the road, again be renewing the battle. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well, let me just -- since I'm picking on Harrisburg, let me pick on some more. This is a national problem. So even if Harrisburg creates laws that interfere with the 2096 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY sale of these guns, a la New York, New York State, you still have other the states in this union. For example, the New York City Police Department confiscates between 16,000 and 18,000 guns, a variety, every year. And 95 percent of those guns from come from five southern states, all right? And we've had case after case -- while it's hard to get a gun in New York, you know, they've got lots of 'em. People are coming in and going to these different states where they've even set up residency requirements. So we had this gentleman last Christmas, a year ago last Christmas, come in from Palestine. He was a 72-year-old man, he got off the airplane, he went to Florida, the ink wasn't even dried on his passport. He checked into the No-Tell Motel, hung out there for three days, and then bought this gun, which he now took back to New York and shot eight people in the Empire State Building, and killing some kid that was up there visiting. This is a person that had just landed. The ink on the passport wasn't dry, and this guy, 2097 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY 72 years old, a Palestinian, could go down and get a gun in Florida. It's outrageous that that can go on in the states today. And these phony three-day waiting periods, I mean, it's just -- it's not just a Harrisburg problem, it's a national problem that has to be dealt with and dealt with seriously. But the NRA's got some pull, so we'll see.

Well, I think the President is indicating that he may push in the direction of a federal anti-assault-weapon bill or a control of weapons generally. Sir, in New York, when a person gets arrested -- and you said Philadelphia's in between Washington, D.C. and New York. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Geographically, yeah.

I asked you the question about New York. When a person is arrested, how long does it take for that person to go through preliminary processing and to get out on bail? Let's assume it's not a crime that's a 2098 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY very severe crime, so the person's going to get released on minimal bail. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well, the one has nothing to do with the other. Every person in New York City that's arrested, they go into what we call "the system," and we are under a court- ordered mandate that they must get to see a judge within hours. That's, you know. . . 10

The District of 11 Columbia, in an article I read several months ago 12 asserted that most people arrested are processed 13 within three and a half to four hours. 14 Have you ever had occasion to examine 15 that? Would you be interested if we get the 16 information from the District of Columbia? 17 COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well, I'd be 18 very suspicious of that data because I just know 19 just the police end of the process, and that's 20 doing reports and interviewing. Again, depending 21 on the crime, it would take at least three, four, 22 five hours. 23 Then the fingerprinting. For example, 24 in New York, the fingerprinting goes up to Albany and it takes -- the process has been speeded up or 2099 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY it can still take anywhere from 8, 10, hours before the prints come back. So if they're doing it in three and a half hours, I would want to know what exactly that process is. Does that mean that they are what they call "paper ready"? In other words, the prints are back and everything's done in three and a half hours? If that was the case, D.C. would be the model of efficiency. The last time I read, I don't think they were.

Mm-hmm, well, let me get into -- I'd like to send you the material on that. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah, absolutely.

Because I personally find it offensive that any one of us here could be arrested for what later turns out to be very minor or groundless charges and go through a kind of enforced one-day-in-jail process. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

And I just think we all owe a duty to speed up that process unless 2100 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY there are you know, difficulties, the kind that you cite that put actual limitations on it. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah. But, listen --

Our fingerprints, as far as I know, don't have to be sent outside of Philadelphia for checking. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Great.

So it can be done. It seems, from what we've seen, it just seems that there aren't enough people, you know, available, so that files have to wait for ours before they can looked at. But we can deal with that separately. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Listen, if you can speed it up, it's to everybody's benefit. But my sense is, those numbers, to me, sound absolutely incredible. So, okay --

What if we could do it in eight to ten hours? It would mean somebody might be arrested early in the morning and be out before dark in the summertime. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: But again --

That would be a real 2101 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY improvement. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah. Again, remember, it's not called "The Criminal Justice System" because it's the Criminal Justice Unit. It's system, so you have -- the police are just one end of it. And in some respects --

And the District Attorney. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: In some respects, the police end is actually the easiest end. I mean, it's the most dangerous end. But once we get 'em, I mean, then it's kind of somebody else's responsibility. You've got to wait for prints, the D.A. has to prepare the case, that's got to go before the judge. The judge has a calendar that the judge is going by. I mean, there's all sorts of folks involved.

Well, we have a system in which judges are available down at the Arraignment Court on a 24-hour basis. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

So they wouldn't be 2102 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY the problem. The District Attorney has a 24-hour charging unit available. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

All right, one last question. I wanted to a align myself with the question asked several hours ago by Councilwoman Blackwell. I'm very concerned by the proliferation of bills in this Council and throughout the country dealing with sidewalk behavior by people. And I heard your comments and have a sense that you're going to be look at it. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.

I would hope that we're not going to have to deal with complaints against the police. I don't think the police ought to be turned into a social service agency or a police officer ought to be required to make some kind of an evaluation whether somebody is a mental case or not. But I think the failure of society in other areas that deal with homelessness shouldn't be result with the problem being bounced, you know, on the Police Department. 2103 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

And you're being directed by the rest of society TO get these folks out of our view. You know, if you can't do anything else, send them to a mental institution or send them to a prison somewhere. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: But, I mean, I've read the papers, I see the concerns. But we in policing, police officers on the ground, make decisions, judgments all day long. And while they're not making a critical observation regarding somebody's mental well-being, if an officer comes upon a person acting rather strange and obviously this person is strange and maybe a danger to himself or herself or to passersby, the whole bit, the officer has an obligation to take that person at least to a hospital to be checked out. I mean that stuff seems pretty basic to me. So I don't feel that -- do I want officers handling homelessness as the problem? Absolutely not. But at least in New York -- I'm not familiar with the homeless situation here. At 2104 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY least in New York, there's a certain segment that have basically, when they went under this, institutionalization program years ago, there 5 are a lot of people who are suffering a variety of 6 mental diseases who don't take their medication, a 7 whole host of stuff, that become a danger to 8 themselves or the members of the community. 9 And while police aren't doctors, they 10 are often the first point of intervention in the 11 system, and they just pick them up and, you know, 12 hand them off to the doctors or to the social 13 service people, whatever. 14 I don't think we have any disagreement, 15 but I wouldn't make -- talk about that in absolute 16 terms, because there are some situations, whether 17 it's homeless or somebody else, where officers may 18 in fact have to -- 19

Well, I'm hoping 20 that -- 21 COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I am not 22 interested in our police force becoming the 23 cure-all for the homeless problem, absolutely not. 24

Well, I'm hoping 25 this Council will have the sanity not to pass 2105 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY those bills, but there will be pressures on the Police Department, irrespective of whether the bills pass or not. Because homelessness and its appearance does seem to be some kind of a problem, and it's hard in other areas to determine what the police of the City of Philadelphia is. We have policies aimed at lessening homelessness, and we have policies which we carry out very effectively which increase homelessness, like we have shelter restrictions which bar people for a certain period of time for alleged misbehavior in the shelter. Then they're barred for three months from being in the shelter. Since they have no place else to go and they apparently like the company of other folks, they come down into Center City. And if they get chased out of Center City, then District Councilmembers representing different neighborhood areas suddenly get all kinds of complaints from their constituents. I'm hoping we stay away from that. One last final question. The Louima case in New York, do you have any knowledge of it? Were you following it in the New York Police 2106 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY Department? I've just been wondering, is it a case, isn't it a case? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I have no idea. I mentioned it earlier when I gave testimony regarding civilian oversight, civilian complaint review boards, the Louima case specifically. I was in New Zealand when that issue happened, and I was doing a radio interview a day after, and it had been on CNN, and the woman asked me, well, you know, how would I explain it? I mean, how could I explain the inexplicable? I can -- I have been in policing 29 years. I have seen things, I've done things, I've read about things, but this Louima thing was completely off the -- I mean, any cop I spoke to, whether it was in New York or anywhere in the nation, nobody could -- there is no explanation clearly. Obviously, there is no justification. And you can't even say that something similar happened somewhere else. We've had lots of serious situations happen in New York City over my 29 years. We had a police officer murder -- there's no other term for it -- murder a 13-year-old boy; just absolutely executed him. 2107 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY We've had all sorts of things along that range, but the Louima thing is completely off the scope. I mean, I just can't imagine thing like that happening. I have no further insight. I just know that -- I know Zack Carter who's the -- he's the District Attorney, the federal District Attorney taking over the case from the local District Attorney, and there are some -- while, clearly, that case is a big case, what's going on there, there are some issues tangential issues for policing that are starting to surface, that you may have seen in the New York Times in the last couple of days regarding the role of police unions and whether in fact they have the same rights vis-a-vis confidentiality as lawyer-client privilege. And the federal courts have ruled, no, they don't. So there's a whole hornets' nest that has been dug up and other issues surrounding that case. As the case itself will go forward and be dealt with, but there are a whole bunch of side issues having to do with police, police unions, and things of that nature, and a civilian oversight, and a whole host of things. 2108 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY

All right, thank you. Thank you, Madame Chair.

You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilman DiCicco.

Thank you, Madame Chair. Good afternoon, Commissioner or is it evening? You'll be happy to know that I have no 10 questions, so -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Give that man a sandwich. (Laughter.)

So you can just sit back while I just explain to my colleagues and the people listening about a recent visit I had to New York. About seven weeks ago, I was invited to New York see a taping of the Michael J. Fox show, "Spin City," I believe it's called. And I was a little bit apprehensive about going there and staying overnight because of the experience I had some seven or eight years ago when I did an overnight stay in New York. And my unpleasant experience seven or eight years ago led to that apprehension this time. 2109 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY I can remember seven or eight years ago walking along Broadway, in the vicinity of around 42nd Street, and I remember having lunch in one of the cafeterias overlooking Broadway. And there's an island out there on Broadway where I think there's a marine recruiting center or something around 40th or 39th Street. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah, 43rd Street.

43rd Street. And I can recall literally seeing drug dealers standing out on that island as though they were selling produce. I remember prostitutes grabbing at people. And I can recall the guys with the cardboard boxes that would set up the shell games, and they were literally ripping people off, in particular tourists and foreigners who had no idea what was happening. You know, the guy would set up the cards, somebody would raise the ante, and it was just a circle of people playing against one person, and they literally had no opportunity to win in the game. Councilman Cohen mentioned something 2110 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY about statistics a little while ago. And statistics concerning crime at least are as good as what people feel. And if they feel safe then, I guess, the statistics aren't important. With all due with respect to some of the recent statistics in Philadelphia, I would venture to say if a poll was taken in Philadelphia, most people would still say that they do not feel safe in Philadelphia. And I'm getting a "here, here" on the right-hand side. But the point I just wanted to bring out -- and, again, this is a statement and it's a compliment. And I'm commending you because you were a part of that whole process that literally has transformed New York into a place that I visited seven weeks ago which I have not yet stopped talking about. That same location off of Broadway is literally cleaned of the aggressive panhandlers, the prostitutes, the drug dealers. I went from Lexington, 37th and Lexington, to 78th Street, to the Art Museum, and walked back to 42nd Street, 43rd Street. Not one homeless person, not one 2111 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY panhandler, not one prostitute on a Saturday afternoon, a very busy day in New York. The weather was fine. There were literally tens of thousands of people walking. And I saw New Yorkers looking happy and feeling happy, and I had not seen that in my past experiences in New York. There was order back on the streets of New York. And I wish you well during the time that you're here, and I hope -- and I believe seeing is believing. And what I saw in New York, I believe that you will be able to do that for us in Philadelphia, and you will be able to restore order back to the streets of Philadelphia in cooperation with the fine Philadelphia Police Department that we have here today. So congratulations, and welcome to Philadelphia. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Thank you, Councilman, I appreciate that.

Thank you, Madame Chair.

Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter.

Thank you, Madame 2112 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY Chair. Just a couple final questions, Mr. Timoney. Can you share with us your views on -- and I know this has been your experience at your previous employ. There is one union for all of the officers who are in a union in Philadelphia. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

My understanding is that there are probably three or four by rank in the City of your previous employ. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Five.

Was it patrolman, sergeant, lieutenant, captain? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: And detectives.

And detectives, okay. Any perspectives on the distinction between the two -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Oh yeah.

-- systems? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I think you've hit on a very, very important point. Coming from where I came from, it's just -- it's one of the issues I will have to grapple with literally and figuratively. 2113 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY It's actually incomprehensible to me that everybody in the organization can belong to the same union. I'm sure I exaggerate, but I don't know how bosses, sergeants, lieutenants, captains, inspectors, chief inspectors can do their job and do their job effectively being in the same union. I'm probably wrong but, you know, it's in this matter, I will renege my New York, and I'll go to Missouri, and they're going to have to show me how it's done, because, you know, they're the old "Show Me" state. I don't know how you do it, but I'm perfectly willing to learn to see if it can be done, but it boggles my mind.

Well, do you plan to try to change it? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: In the whole scheme of things, I think I've been quite honest since I've gotten here two weeks ago. I have certain things that I want to accomplish in the next 22 months. I told you my 22 months is my frame of reference. If the next mayor decides that I should stay, God bless him or 2114 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY her, I will stay, but I'm using just months. And correcting that union issue, that's not on my radar screen.

I'm sorry? 6 COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: That's not on my 7 radar screen, that's not one of my priorities. 8

Okay. Can you tell 9 us of any actions you have taken personally in 10 your 29 years of experience to improve the nature 11 of the relationship between the Police Department 12 and various minority communities across the places 13 that you've served? 14 COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah, I 15 mean. . 16 We could quite literally be here for 17 the rest of the day, and I don't think we want to 18 be here the rest of the day, but let me give you 19 two examples. 20 I served as the commanding officer at 21 Chinatown. And when I took over as commanding 22 officer at Chinatown, relations between the Chinese community, which is a substantial community in New York -- we're talking about probably 200,000, 250,000 just in Chinatown. 2115 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY There are probably another 250,000 in the other boroughs, but a significant population. For a variety of reasons, not the best of relations with the Police Department. Maybe from their background not dealing with the best police departments in China, for a whole host of the reasons. And I think some bad interactions with members of the NYPD, specifically the 5th Precinct. When I took over, there was an issue percolating regarding the Chinese press and the police officers of the 5th Precinct. They were really at loggerheads. It turned out that one of our officers, who turned out to be a Chinese officer also, had arrested a newspaper reporter and wound up giving him a summons. And so that was one of the many issues that confronted me as I walked through the door. And it was a real bone of contention for me because there were four or five -- I think five -- newspapers in Chinatown, one television station, and two radio stations, so the media was going to have a significant role. And not that I'm going to roll over for 2116 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY the media, but they will play an important part in Chinatown for my getting the message out since we're talking about a community that, by and large, does not speak English. When I looked into the issue surrounding the summons, the cop was wrong. The arrest should not have been made. The member of the press was perfectly within his rights. It was at a polling location for voting to be there, and the cop was wrong. Now, I have -- I have got certain beliefs in my life that I've tried to live by, and trust me, trust me, I'm by no means a saint. But there's certain things that I try and do. One of them is if I'm wrong, I'll apologize. I firmly believe in that. It's the way I was brought up by parents, by the schools I went to. If you're wrong, you apologize. And so it turned out, we were wrong with this Chinese reporter. And so I got my executive officer, who was a lieutenant. I had to go down and get the department lawyers and go over to the court and withdraw the charge. I mean, that charge should not be pending if we are 2117 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY wrong. We withdrew the charge. And then I called the reporter to my office, and he came with his boss. And I told him what I had done. He was shocked. And I apologized. I apologized on behalf of the Department. And I also spoke to the officer before I brought the reporter in. I told the officer, you know, I generally support police, there's no 11 problem, but you're wrong here, and we're going to apologize. He said, Yeah, I have no problem with that. So I apologized to the reporter, and the reporter's jaw dropped because they had never, ever received an apology from a police official. And especially in Chinese culture, the whole idea of face and losing face and saving face is a big deal. That one act paid off dividends tremendously. It gave me entree into the Chinese community, meeting with groups, helped me get my message out. To this day, I still am invited back to all of the Chinese banquets. On my swearing-in, I'm sure there will 2118 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY be some folks down here from Chinatown next week.

I am somewhat of a folk hero in the Chinese community. I am their -- still their commanding officer even though I left there ten years ago. So that's one example. The other one is -- there were two parades in New York. New York is a city of parades, but there were two in particular that had -- for want of a better term -- had gotten out of hand: The St. Patrick's Day Parade and the Western Union Day Parade. Between the drinking and the fighting -- unfortunately, last year, on St. Patrick's Day, there was a young man killed in a fight. So, hopefully, they'll correct that next week, then we won't have these issues again. But the Western Union Day had become a real problem; assaults, shootings, and the whole bit. I worked closely with the Caribbean community in Brooklyn, trying to set that parade right, beginning, I guess, in the mid-eighties, early eighties, mid-eighties. And while I was in the Police Department as the Chief, I marched in that parade, 2119 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY for a variety of reasons. First of all, I liked the people organizing it. And, plus, I thought it was important symbolically, that the police were going to be not just policing this thing but part of. It was important to me to send messages out, not just to the Caribbean community, but also to the cops that were policing it. Listen, this is a fun event. And that event has turned out, by the way, now to be almost completely trouble-free, it really is. And it goes along great, and I still get my invites to the various Caribbean community functions, including participating in the parade.

Okay. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: There are others. And, if you want, we could sit down privately and we'll go over them. Or, as Casey Single says, you can look it up.

Okay. Lastly, prior to your being offered the position here -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

-- your activities were as a consultant. You had a business; is that 2120 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY correct? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well, I didn't have the business. I worked for a -- I wish I had the business, but I worked for a London-based company. The English of all things, imagine that. (Laughter.)

That's pretty interesting. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I was a traitor to my race.

I will not comment on that. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: That was an inside joke.

I understand. Okay, so you were actually working for a firm. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yes.

You were not a private consultant having your own business? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Where I just left now, yes. I was a private consultant prior to joining the Brits, in between the time I left the police department. I did some private consulting and then 2121 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY did I two pro bono commissions. "Pro bono" means you don't get paid. One was the commission in Ireland --

I'm aware of that. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: -- that I served on for a year. And then helping reorganize the Irish police force as a result of that journalist that was killed, Veronica Garren (ph). And at the same time, I was appointed to Vice Chair of the Domestic Violence Commission for Governor Pataki while, which I served. So doing those two pro bono missions, I was also supplementing my meager income doing private consulting, expert testimony, things of that nature.

And do you expect to do any more of that kind of work once you're sworn in -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: No, absolutely not.

-- as Police Commissioner here? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: No. 25

Well, please don't 2122 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY be offended, Mr. Timoney. It is not an unusual circumstance that some members of the government are able to do some outside work away from what their job is here. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: This is -- yeah.

And I don't know what the circumstances were in your previous employment, but it does happen here. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah. Well, it won't happen here with me 'cause it's 24/7 for 13 months. And if you want me to stay here longer, I 14 will stay. 15

More than likely, I 16 won't be making that decision. 17 (Laughter.) 18 COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Thank you very 19 much, Madame Chair. 20 COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Thank you.. 21

Commissioner, we 22 really appreciate your testifying before us today. Believe it or not, we haven't even touched the budget. So at this point in time, I would like 2123 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - COMM. JOHN TIMONEY to recognize Deputy Commissioner Nestel, with his written testimony. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Unfortunately, I have got to excuse myself.

You're excused. I should have executed myself two hours ago.

Thank you. Time goes by when you're having fun. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Thank you very much. - - - (Deputy Police Commissioner Thomas Nestel comes forward.)

Commissioner Nestel, good afternoon. Please proceed with your testimony. DEPT. COMM. NESTEL: Good afternoon, Councilwoman Verna and Members of City Council. I am Thomas Nestel, Deputy Police Commissioner. With us today are Deputy Commissioner Sylvester Johnson, Deputy Commissioner Robert Mitchell, and Fiscal Officer Thomas DeWaele. 2124 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - POLICE DEPT. TESTIMONY This past year has been one of significant change and progress for the Police Department. In FY '98, the Department continued to expand community policing by heightening the presence of on-street patrol officers and creating several new units to deter criminals, prevent crime and improve our ability to respond to crimes in progress. 3 million from the Aviation Fund. 9 million over the Department's FY '98 budget. Specifically, additional funds requested will be used to create a Helicopter Unit, deploy additional bicycle officers, cover the airtime costs for newly installed mobile data terminals, and fund 353 Crime Bill officers, whose salaries were partially offset by Federal Crime Bill funds in the past. In September 1998, when the last class of Crime Bill officers graduate, the police budget will fund 6,982 officers, over 750 more officers 2125 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - POLICE DEPT. TESTIMONY than just years ago. In fact, the nearly 7,000 officers, who will be serving on the force by the end of FY '99 is the highest number of officers on the force since March of 1985 when over 150,000 more people lived in the City. 3 percent higher than just 8 years ago, when there were only 4,878 officers on the street. 4 percent. 3 percent growth rate of local tax revenues forecast for the next year. 8 million to fund the salaries of Crime Bill officers. These additional officers 2126 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - POLICE DEPT. TESTIMONY have allowed the Department to devote more of its resources to the City's most pressing problems: the war on drugs and the need to address quality-of-life crimes. There can be no doubt that the spread of illegal drugs is the most important issue facing the Police Department. The damage to the quality of life of City residents caused by the flow of illegal drugs and the fear caused by the open sale of narcotics is the Department's number-one priority. In December 1997, the Department announced the first in a series of initiatives based on its ongoing review of deployment practices. As part of these initial changes, the Department increased the number of front line officers assigned to fight drugs and serious crime by adding 100 officers to Narcotics Strike Force and 100 officers to the Rapid Response Crime Team. The Strike Force, which now consists of 150 officers, expanded its role, concentrating on neighborhoods hit hardest by illegal drugs. The Strike Force conducts directed drug enforcement 2127 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - POLICE DEPT. TESTIMONY activities in a grid of approximately six to eight blocks. At the same time that the expanded Narcotics Strike Force began operation, the Department also created an elite 100-officer corps known as "The Rapid Response Crime Team," a mobile tactical force capable of saturating high-crime areas or areas experiencing a sudden increase in crime. Team officers coordinate with the Narcotics Strike Force and district personnel to attack open-air drug corners and combat the increasing weaponry and violence that accompany the sale of illegal drugs. Since these new units were created, the Departments Crime Analysis Unit has been working with our drug enforcement officials to create detailed maps of narcotics activities throughout the City by identifying areas with a large volume of narcotics sales and concentrating the deployment of our resources to the areas most in need of help. The results of these initiatives have been dramatic. To date, in FY '98, the Department 2128 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - POLICE DEPT.

TESTIMONY has made 6,899 arrests for narcotics, and projects that we will reach 12,000 arrests by the end of the fiscal year. This is an increase of 92 percent over FY '96. While this is only the first step in the Department's escalation of the war on drugs, these increases have begun to stem the flow of illegal drugs and helped to restore the quality of life of many residents of the City. The war on drugs, however, is by no 12 means the Department's only effort to target quality-of-life issues. " These teams will help the district captains develop a more coordinated and focussed approach to attack drugs and violent crime. 2 million of these funds to deploy 69 two-officer teams 2129 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - POLICE DEPT. TESTIMONY throughout the patrol districts to enforce truancy and curfew statutes and address other community-related problems. The results so far have been impressive. The number of truancy citations issued has increased from only 2,524 in 1996 to 21,453 in 1997. And the number of curfew citations increased from 20,944 in '96 to 24,990 in '97. The Department has also increased its focus on removing abandoned vehicles and issuing moving violations. 1 percent increase over FY '96. And we are projecting that for FY '98 and '99, we will remove 20,000 abandoned vehicles. The Department also projects that it will issue 300,000 moving violations in fiscal '98. This is an increase from the 292,000 in FY '97 and the FY '96 level of 210,000. Over the pass several years, the Department has implemented several other initiatives to help reduce the incidence of crime. For example, in 1996, Commissioner Neal 2130 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - POLICE DEPT. TESTIMONY established a Crime Analysis Committee that now meets to review the performance of each district captain and recommends solutions to persistent problems. In addition to the Crime Analysis Committee, specific types of crime have been targeted such as domestic violence, illegal gun trafficking, and juvenile crime. In 1993, the Department expanded its Domestic Violence Response Teams to every detective division in the City. In the past year, due in part to the efforts of these teams, the number of arrests for domestic violence has increased by 15 percent. Another initiative designed to help prevent crime was the expansion of the Federal Firearms Task Force in FY '97 to track the origin of every weapon used in the commission of a crime. Due in part to these efforts, the Department has made 1,414 arrests for weapons violations to date in FY '98, and projects that we will make 2,424 arrests by the end of the fiscal year. This is an increase of 19 percent over FY '97. 2131 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - POLICE DEPT. TESTIMONY The Department has decentralized the Juvenile Aid Division to allow officers to collaborate more easily with departmental detectives. The Department, through its Community Relations Unit, has also continued to operate numerous anti-drug and anti-gang programs such as DARE and GREAT, and the Police Athletic League to help keep young children out of harm's way. In addition, the Department began a pilot project in March 1997 in the East Police Division based on the juvenile crime techniques that have proven effective in Boston. Since its inception, probation and juvenile officers have made over 145 house visits to juveniles on probation. All these efforts have begun to pay off. Newly revised crime figures show that the crime in Philadelphia is falling. Although the Department's methodology for measuring crime has been subject to data entry lags in the past, new crime figures revised in accordance with the FBI's Uniform Crime Reporting guidelines show that major crimes in Philadelphia dropped from 46,929 to 42,290 during the first six months of 1997. This 2132 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - POLICE DEPT. TESTIMONY is a decrease of percent over the prior year.

In addition, the Department increased the number of arrests made from approximately 61,000 in FY '96 to 63,000 in FY '97, and we are projecting a number of arrests of 65,000 for FY '98. While last year's accomplishments have been significant, it is important to remember that these changes were only the first in a series of systemic changes to the way we operate. In the coming year, the Department will continue its Comprehensive review of deployment practices that was begun in 1997. In 1998, the Police Department will focus on the creation of a complete resource allocation model. Representatives from the Police Department, the Managing Director's Office, and the Mayor's Office of Information Services have traveled to New York and Boston to study each city's method of allocating officers. Based on the information gathered during these trips and the results of our own internal refer, we will begin to craft a new resource allocation model. When completed, the 2133 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - POLICE DEPT. TESTIMONY model will use deployment and crime mapping software to help allocate officers more efficiently and to determine the most effective use of the Department's resources. Several other major initiatives designed to maximize the effectiveness of our officers planned for 1998 include: Creation of a Helicopter Unit, which is scheduled to begin patrol in early FY '99; Returning preliminary court hearings to individual police districts; Seeking more latitude in setting work schedules and holding district commanders responsible for results; And continuing to affirm the Department's commitment to community policing through a variety of initiatives. In addition to these efforts, we are also making changes that will improve the effectiveness of our response to 911 calls. Changes to the City's 911 system include: installation of mobile data terminals in every one of our marked radio patrol cars and exploring the creation of a 311 non-emergency number. 2134 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - POLICE DEPT. TESTIMONY The Department has made significant progress in the past year, but much remains to be done. While the ultimate responsibility for fighting crime must remain with the Police Department, the Commonwealth can take several steps to help this City fight crime by: Requiring the State police to assume the responsibility for patroling the City's highways; Imposing a 10-cent surcharge on lottery tickets sold in Philadelphia to be used solely for hiring and equipping police officers; Tightening State sentencing guidelines for certain categories of offenses; Following the federal government's lead by eliminating preliminary hearings in criminal cases; And restoring the State funding for homeless programs; And lobbying the federal government for additional funding for drug prevention initiatives. I urge this Council to do all that it can to support these initiatives. If the 2135 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - POLICE DEPT. TESTIMONY Commonwealth enacts any of these initiatives, those resources could immediately be reassigned to combat drugs and reduce crime. This concludes my testimony. We will be happy to answer any questions you may have. )

Thank you very much. Does anybody wish to be heard? (No response.)

We have no lights on, you should run. (Laughter.)

We have no 16 lights. Run, run, run. Thank you very much.

Why don't we take about a five-minute recess. (Brief recess taken.) (Proceedings resume.) - - - (Councilwoman Verna takes over the Chair.)

We have quite a 2136 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY list to consider today. I would ask my colleagues to please come to the chamber, thank you. The next department to be heard is the First Judicial District of Pennsylvania. (First Judicial District panel comes forward.)

Alex Bonavitacola, Chairman, Administrative Governing Board, First Judicial District. With me at the table is President Judge Allen Silverstein, seated to my right. To my left is Joseph DiPrimio, Court Administrator of the First Judicial District, and we have two other staff here if their testimony is needed.

Thank you. Do you want to proceed with your testimony, please.

May it please Council, my name is Joseph DiPrimio, I am the Court Administrator for the Philadelphia courts. The First Judicial District respectfully submits its Fiscal Year '99 operating budget request and supporting testimony to Council. This unusual move has been necessitated by the City Administration's decision to not 2137 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY include the Court's funding in the Mayor's FY '99 operational budget submission, which occurred in January of '98. With respect to Statewide funding, the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania had appointed Special Master Justice Frank Montemuro to serve and investigate and make recommendations to the Supreme Court with respect to funding transition. That report was filed in July of 1996. In the report the Master recommended transition to State unification and funding in phases. The first phase provided that all the salaries for all top trial court administrators and their deputies would be provided by the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, beginning July 1, 1988. In regard to the Phase I implementation, it appears that significant progress has occurred. 5 million in funds for Phase I implementation. Included in that funding for Phase I for county staff across the Commonwealth totaling approximately 163 employees 2138 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY of which were from the City and County of Philadelphia. The 12 from Philadelphia included the top court administrators and deputies and represent an aggregate salary of approximately $873,000 in direct salaries plus associated indirect fringe benefits and costs. The Governor's FY '9 was presented in February of '98 and included, in fact, funding for the Phase I positions. According to the Master's recommendation, the Phase III is scheduled for implementation in the year 2000. And this implementation would shift judicial and personnel staff, court reporters, data processing, and other administrative support staff to State funding. Phase III, which is scheduled to occur later, would shift Domestic Relations, Adult and Juvenile Probation, the Law Library, Investigative and other support services. The so-called row offices, which are not part of the First Judicial District would occur in Phase IV. Until the issue of statewide funding of local court is resolved. Respectfully submit that the Philadelphia court has no alternative but to seek funding from the City of Philadelphia and, 2139 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY therefore, must respectfully submit its budget to City Council directly. The District's budget is annualized as opposed to incrementally based on six months, as occurred in Fiscal Year 1998. Included with today's budget and testimony provided heretofore to Council is an actual breakdown of our appropriation request. The total budget call that the City had included for the First Judicial District back in November was approximately $106 million. 9 million more than that because of three significant differences with the City. " In other words, the City and court had agreed that the City would provide 600,000 to provide the court with funding necessarily association with important vacancy positions. Other than that, there is a modest increase with respect to Class 2, 3 and 400. Class 200 includes an approximate 25 percent 2140 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY increase for approximately $400,000 of additional revenues needed to fund the Municipal Court Writ Servers Unit. Class 200 also includes $200,000 additionally to support the increase utilization of court interpreters, which, frankly has occurred as a result of the varied demographics of our City's population. And lastly, it includes approximately $700,000 of additional data-processing costs associated with Traffic Court's increased productivity. Now, these class 200 increases actually result in increased collections being passed through to the City of Philadelphia.

President Judge Bonavitacola will shortly speak to Council with respect to the revenues which the First Judicial District generates to offset our operational budget. In all other respects, our budget is zero growth, in keeping with our years of agreement with the City and as promised to this Council. I respectfully request on behalf of the Court that Council positively consider approval of our budgetary request. 2141 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY

I thank you. Your Honor. JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: Alex Bonavitacola. Councilwoman Verna, I just wish to bring to your attention that our budget, as submitted, is in the sum of $108,455,000. I need the Council to be aware of the fact that $10 million of that money is money that's not spent on behalf of the Court but represents counsel fee costs for indigent defendants in criminal cases. And that has always been a very difficult number to arrive at because it depends on the number of cases in any given fiscal year and how intense those cases are; whether they are homicide or felony jury trials or misdemeanors or felony-waiver trial cases. So that, in effect, the budget for the Court's benefit is $98,455,000. We wish the Council to know that we have a compendium, and I have ample copies here for all Members of the Council, that the Court provides $42,500,000 in revenues that are paid into the City treasury as a result of various grants that we get, activities that we are involved in that generate fines, fees, and costs. 2142 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY So that we feel that our budget is, in effect, really $55,954,000 as a cost to the county and the City of Philadelphia. Now, may I also just add one thing to Mr. DiPrimio's comments on the State take-over of the court systems that Phase III and Phase IV have no dates on them. We do have Phase I, which is phased in this July 1st; and we have Phase II, which is allegedly to be phased in July 1st of the year 2000, but Phases III and IV are undated.

On that very issue, do we know if the State will merely reimburse the City for the. . . Judge, you're laughing, and that frightens me. Are they going to reimburse the City for their employees, or are they simply going to take over? JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: I don't know how -- I think the best quotation I heard on that is, "We're leaving it up to the people with the MBA degrees to figure out which is the most economical, productive way to do that." And I'm not sure that they've arrived at any consensus. But I will say that the first phase, 2143 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY which is going down this July 1st, we'll be putting these administrators, all of them, onto 4 the State payroll, so it won't be a reimbursement 5 item. 6

My concern is, 7 then, the 12 can certainly then move to anywhere 8 they want in the County or the State? 9 JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: I have already 10 raised -- 11

And will the 2,000 12 other employes, once the State starts to fund the Court, be able to do the same? JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: Councilwoman, I assure you that was one of the vest first points I brought up with the State Court Administrator. And that is under review by them and the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania.

And I don't think anybody's talked about what happens to someone's pension. For instance, if they've worked for the court system in Philadelphia for nine years, will that automatically be transferred over to the State? And do they have the same type of pension 2144 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY plan that we have? I think there are a lot of concerns that really have to be addressed. JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: There are a number of outstanding issues that are very important. And I understand that among options are if an employee heretofore is vested in the City plan, then they could draw a bright line at that point. And from that point forward, the employee will make its contributions to the State fund. And when they are vested there, ultimately could receive two different kinds of pensions; one from the City, one from the State. All new employees could be absorbed directly into the State system without going into the City pension system. But all of all that needs to be determined. And I think that's why the year 2000 has been put on that leap.

Thank you. I had to ask that one question because it's really been bothering me for a long time. JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: It's been bothering all of us. 2145 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY

Judge Silverstein. JUDGE SILVERSTEIN: Thank you, Councilwoman Verna. The only thing I wanted to add to what President Judge Bonavitacola already stated and what's in our documentation is that the additional $415,000 requested for the Municipal Court Writ Servers is really an uncontrollable expense for us. And as I explained to Dean Kaplan from the City, the legislature had increased the fee for writ service from 10 to 15 dollars, and the City never kept up with that increase. And one of the our biggest customers is the City of Philadelphia with these code violation cases and tax cases that produce tens of millions of dollars for the City. And that line item is certainly something that should be protected so that these writ servers can be paid. And other than that, I concur with everything President Judge Bonavitacola and our Court Administrator has already said.

Thank you. Judge Bonavitacola, do we have any 2146 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY indication as to how many employees would come under the Phase III? JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: I would assume that it would be somewhere in the vicinity of 2,000 employees.

Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Fernandez.

Thank you, Madame Chair. Good afternoon. JUDGE SILVERSTEIN: Good afternoon.

You directly addressed in your testimony the problem of the Supreme Court's order for the funding of the courts to be really a State-paid function. And each time I look at our budget, when I see $108 million that we have to pay out yet we have no control over, and I think of the all the things that $108 million could go for, you know I find it very troubling. So I just wondered, am I understanding you correctly that for this Phase I implementation of the longer-range plan, that there was a request in the State budget for 15-plus million, but the 2147 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY City of Philadelphia's getting less than a million or getting 875 thousand? JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: It's million 5 Statewide for all the administrators, of which 12 6 of them are Philadelphia. And the price is 800 7 and -- 8

Approximately 850,000 9 for Philadelphia. 10 But also included in the $15 million 11 figure were funds for further studies to implement 12 Phase III, specifically addressing the points that 13 Councilwoman Verna's raised with respect to 14 pension and things like that, transition of 15 data-processing. So while it sounds that -- $15 million is a lot of money, there's no question, but there are portions of that for other non-personnel matters.

Because when I saw the 15 and saw we were only getting less than a million, and I can't recall the population of the State, what would it be about, do you know? How many million people? I know our region is over a third of 2148 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY the population, and we from this region pay over a third of the taxes into the State government. So it felt like less than a million out of a $15 million package. I'm wondering if it's proportionate. And if it isn't, why isn't it? Again, we shouldn't have been to be paying it in the first place, and I know that's not your problem, it's the State legislature's problem. But it feels like $873,000 is barely symbolic.

It does represent -- the $800,000 does represent the dollar-for-dollar costs for the salaries associated with the 12 employees of the Court system. With respect to the fair share or the fair contribution, I have no way of knowing whether or not that Philadelphia is getting a fair share. It doesn't seem to me, quite frankly. But I can I say that our 12 employees represent the single largest number of people going over onto Statewide unification. So compared to the Clinton County, perhaps they may have only 2 people; we have 12. 2149 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY

Well, again, I know it's not your responsibility, but as you're having conversations with people probably more frequently than we are, again, the bottom line is we should not be paying this anyway. And our budget would be in such better shape if we didn't have that $108 million that we're not supposed to be paying. And then, again, I wish they will be sure to be proportional since, again, we probably have more need, probably more crime, per capita crime, where we need the courts. So I would think there'd be some proportionality, either in terms of population or amount of crime that our courts need to be handled as they move ahead in this process. JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: I think the red flag that needs to be raised here is that if the State took over the funding of the court system tomorrow, that would not result in a $108 million savings to the City of Philadelphia because the fees, fines, costs, and monies generated through the court system, which amount to $43 million would be paid over directly to the State. 2150 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY

Oh, okay. JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: Yeah, so that's a red flag.

You know, I'd settle still, though, for 60, 70 million. But, good, I'm glad you're correcting me on that. One other issue that had come up. I think it was in the City Controller's report. He raised some questions about the way you keep track of payroll costs. And I'm not sure of the terminology here, but it was where you give people credit for -- is it 80 hours? -- and only if the record show they haven't -- JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: We're on a negative.

-- done that, and you deduct it later? JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: Yeah.

Is there any reason why you don't do a -- I don't know whether you call it a positive type of payroll accounting like I think we do here in the City.

I'm glad you asked that 2151 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY question. As a matter of fact, we're actually converted to that system now.

Okay. JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: It's positive versus negative reporting.

Right. JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: So the assumption is on negative reporting that the employee worked the full week unless we notify you that the employee's out on a particular day. We've converted on the ABRA (ph) system on computer to a positive reporting system.

So when people say, "I actually worked" --

Yes.

-- they get paid for that.

That's correct. The system heretofore had been just a manual checkoff whether or not the employee was in or not and then after the fact got reported into the City's data-processing. Through cooperative discussions with Mr. Kaplan, we're moving towards rolling out our 2152 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY computer -- our automated system for tracking employee attendance and time right into the work place. And then following that up on the heels of positive attendance reporting.

Okay. Thank you, Madame Chair.

You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter.

Thank you Madame Chair. Good afternoon, Your Honors. Judge Bonavitacola, I want to ask a question about the capacity and the capability of the computer system in the courts to possibly get some information. And I know you're, from previous testimony, very well versed with the court computer system. If I do ask something that you might not be aware of, then maybe we can get the answer from someone else. Is the court's system able to track the number and type and disposition and follow-through on cases by judge? JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: Yes.

So you could -- and 2153 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY it would do it on a historical basis? I mean, you could go from a particular point up to a point, and you would be able to, for instance, print out by the particular judge, how many cases, what the disposition was by charge, was it a bench trial, was it a jury trial, appeals, and what happened with the appeal; you could do all of that? JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: Yes.

And how long would something like that take? JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: To prepare a printout?

Yes. JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: I guess it would depend on a few things, Councilman. How long has the judge been in tenure. In other words, how many years are we covering. How many different programs has the judge been in, list room, homicide, jury trial, civil, you know, whatever. And I don't think we're talking about a tremendous amount of time. I think it could be produced in 72 hours, 120 hours the most.

Okay. So all I would need to do is to tell you who the person 2154 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY was. And I'm not sure of all the various assignments, but if I gave you the particular individual, you'd be able to print out all of that information for me? JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: Yeah. We have the capability.

All right, I'd like to follow up with you on that because I do have a request that I'd like to make in that regard. Thank you. Thank you, Madame Chair.

Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Cohen.

Thank you, Madame Chair. First, I wanted to congratulate the Courts, all of them, for what I perceive to be from the reports of the increased efficiency of the -- I guess it's too fast to say the elimination the backlog, but the virtual elimination of the backlog, and really with a much lessened amount of criticism coming from the public generally about the courts. And that also, it's a non-statistical 2155 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY way of our judging because we're the recipients, I think, of most of the complaints. And what Councilwoman Verna raised earlier about her concern on the State takeover, we're very concerned about the Philadelphia employees. We're interested in ever broadening the area of the residency requirements. We want to we want to broaden them. We're worried that this may lessen them. We don't want to see employees who are working for the courts and who have stayed in Philadelphia, we don't want to see the ties loosened between them and the City. And we also would feel more comfortable as far as their security is concerned if Philadelphia retains jurisdiction over them, but we will follow that apace. The particular area that I'm concerned about is the quality of the legal services. And I think it affects the judges too, because if you have a well-prepared case by an attorney that has the time to amply present the case, I think it makes the life of the judges much easier, and I think you feel better knowing that all possible 2156 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY areas of the case were covered. And in that area, I'm very much worried about what seems to be severe problems in the private bar with respect to indigent criminal defendants. Largely, I expect the public defenders's office has been giving that responsibility, but there are many occasions when if there are two or more people and I guess you could count many more cases than I would have easily available where people from the private bar are appointed. And, increasingly, at the meetings of the Criminal Justice Section of the Bar Association and in discussions or calls that I get from lawyers, there seems to be very real concern. So I'm going to be posing a number of questions because I think this concerns a problem that we want to get righted, whatever that may take. First, you mentioned the overall budget of the court is set to be about 108 million, but 10 million of that is basically counsels' costs which relate to basically the non-operational aspects of the court. 2157 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: Correct.

Right. Now, as I've been looking at the budget, those figures are always grouped and the larger figure is always given as the cost of the court system. Would you have any objection if a procedure were to be established that for the internal budgeting of the budget, there were a separate line item for the counsel costs so it would indicate, say, court costs 98 million, counsel fees, you know, in some kind of subtitles, counsel fees, 10 million, using figures that you talked about. That would seem to me to help clarify the issue. JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: Most assuredly, Councilman Cohen, because in the past five years, our budget item for indigent counsel fees, as approved by the City Administration and put into our budget, we needed to supplement it from tightening it up on not replacing employees that retired or left the system and would hold the position open for a number months in order to accumulate the moneys to shift it over into the 2158 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY shortfall in counsel fees. So if they're a separate item, completely a separate item, counsel fees, we would have no objection to that.

All right. JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: As a matter of fact, we'd be pleased to turn it over to the City and say, Take the budget amount and --

Well, that would may also be -- JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: We'd be delighted to do that.

I'm just exploring at this stage different options that might exist. Does the court have -- sort of following Councilman Nutter's questions with respect to getting information on cases, would it be possible to track the cost of, say, counsel fees over the years, say, for the last decade? JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: We do.

You do. JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: We track it.

And those figure would be available? 2159 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: We track it very carefully.

All right. I would like -- is there any kind of a breakdown, because I know you have at least two main groups. You have the private bar involved in criminal defense activities, and then you have the private bar involved in the Juvenile Courts as children advocates or whatever the phrase is applied in child advocacy lawyers. I don't know what the exact phrase is. Are they the two main areas? Are there any more areas where they're separate counsel fees? JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: You pretty much have it. And Kevin Cross, seated to my left, keeps very close tabs on it and breaks it down according to whether it's juvenile delinquency fees that we're paying for or juvenile dependency or spousal abuse. And on this other side, whether it's a homicide or a felony expenditure. So, yes, they are broken down, and we have a historical data base on that. 2160 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY

And then if my office were to call, we'd be able to get that information? JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: Absolutely.

Well, we're looking for a way of resolving it because I've always been a member of the private bar, not very active except on behalf of City Council or sometimes in matters affecting the City. It may not have been on behalf of the City Administration; it might be against them. But other than that, when I'm in Council, I don't take any private cases. But I've been a member of the private bar long enough to know that if you're going to have a strong bar, you need an addition to the defenders' office, and they do a great job, but you need a private healthy bar that affords, you know, good defenses. And the information I'm getting is that the -- and I'm not sure if it's accurate and that's the reason I'm raising it with you. I'm getting at, there's kind of a real financial squeeze on members of the private bar. Maybe -- you know, I don't know what causes this, I don't 2161 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY even want to speculate. But I'm told, for example, that say, in the child advocacy cases, that there is a limit of 400, 450, 500, I don't know what the exact figure is, but it's some figure which is the most they can receive in a case, no matter what time they put in in working on the case, no matter how long. I've been told that cases may last a number of years. And yet, that same figure covers that situation. They're the kind of issues I would like to raise. And in the criminal defense, the -- during the O.J. Simpson case, I was reminded of the homicide case I handled in the late seventies, during a period when I was out of City Council. I was court-appointed and was awarded the munificent sum of $150 to cover all investigative, psychiatric studies, anything that was needed. They said, Do what you want with the $150, spend it in whatever way you want. And that was the total amount, but don't come back for any more money. That was the total amount then allotted. And I thought of the half a million, 2162 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY the million dollars that the O.J. Simpson defense got. Maybe that was why my client was found guilty, and O.J. Simpson was not. But I'm saying that I'm mindful of the fact that we've always had trouble this in that area. Would he be the right fellow also to make inquiry before I know in what manner to proceed? JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: Mr. Cross can give you the congregate figures, yeah, sure. He can give you the figures.

And then we might want to have discussions after that 'cause I think it's something that cries out. JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: Right.

And the City has a real interest in having a healthy private bar. JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: Well, let me just say this one thing to you that might help to alleviate your anxiety or their anxiety. And that is that Philadelphia courts treat appointed counsel much better than the five surrounding counties, who, the way they treat appointed counsel, there's a significant difference. 2163 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY In the surrounding, several of them cap fees at a certain amount, no matter what happens. We have our fee systems here that exceed those. And, for example, you talk about being paid a hundred dollars and don't come back again. We had the very notorious and unfortunate Center City jogger case that cost out of this fund over $35,000 in attorneys' fees, plus many thousands of dollars -- I can't recall right now -- in investigators' and expert witness fees. That case ran us close to $42,000.

But that was probably a very unusual case. JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: Yes, but I would say it was --

And you were probably happy it was a very unusual case. JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: It was.

Because you couldn't afford many like that. But I'm thinking more of the cases that are kind of run-of-the-mill, you know, where the defendant can't pay anything. But I think we've got to respect the needs of the private bar and 2164 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY enable them to present adequate an defense. 'Cause we can kid ourselves, you know. We can have rates so low that we compel people not to be able to present the full kind of case that ought to be presented. And we do it in the name economy. And, yet, the effect is the defendant doesn't get the kind of representation that we would all want a defendant to have or in a criminal case or in these child advocacy cases. All right. I will get the gentleman's name again later. And we'll be in touch with you. And I assume if he doesn't do the right thing, Judge, I can go right to you. JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: He will, he will.

He will. And he'll protect you from me. Okay, we'll find out. But we'd like to do that because I think there's some methods that we may have to change. Are there agreements that are arrived at between -- or who makes the decision as to what the fees are? How does that come about that any number is set? JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: The administrative 2165 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 1ST JUDICIAL DIST. TESTIMONY judge of the division normally makes certain determinations in the Common Pleas Court. I make them concerning the homicide cases in which the fee is in excess of $4,000. Municipal Court has a flat-fee system. And for a large part of the juvenile court, there's a flat-fee system.

Mm-hmm. All right, they may have merit, they may have demerits. But I would -- first gathering the information enables you to have a firm base. Thank you, Madame Chair.

You're welcome. Are there any other questions from Members of the Committee? (No further questions at this time.)

Gentlemen, thank you very much, and thank you for your patience. I'm sorry you were kept waiting. JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: That's all right. May we submit to you enough copies for the entire Council on this -- just the summary budget?

The Sergeant of Arms will distribute them. JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: You may have them 2166 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - SHERIFF'S DEPT. TESTIMONY for all Members of Council.

Thank you. JUDGE BONAVITACOLA: Thank you. - - -

The Sheriff's Office is next to testify come forward. (Members of Sheriff's Office panel come forward.)

Good afternoon. SHERIFF GREEN: Good afternoon.

Please identify yourself for the record and proceed with your testimony. SHERIFF GREEN: John Green, Sheriff for the City of Philadelphia and County of Philadelphia. Our formal testimony is relegated to two really just two points. One, we'd like to thank the Council for its assistance in settling two matters, financial matters, during the last fiscal year. One was the adjustment of our fee schedule. That allowed us to collect more money that we were able to put towards our personnel 2167 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - SHERIFF'S DEPT. TESTIMONY portion of our budget. The second was a resolution that was passed by this body that provided some assistance in settling the FOP's matter with the City, which you're familiar with, which dealt with bonus money that was owed to our deputy sheriffs. With that, I would just like to inform you that we are willing to live within the budget that has been given to us by the City of Philadelphia by the Administration, and that concludes our testimony.

Were the bonuses given to your employees? They were? SHERIFF GREEN: Yes.

And I believe they were supposed to get an increase, were they not? SHERIFF GREEN: Yes.

Is that reflected in your budget? SHERIFF GREEN: Yes, in part. That's why we have an increase.

Fine. And as I read your budget, you're asking for an additional seven positions? 2168 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - SHERIFF'S DEPT. TESTIMONY (Paris Frazier, Budget Officer comes forward.)