Notification. We have been at the same location. I feel for our business to continue to thrive we have to stay at that location. Our subcontractor following knows us. We have been at that same location 54 years. We have had the same phone number for over 65 years at that same location.
So I clearly 48 6/9/05 - Committee on Rules Public Hearing understand, one of the properties in question is currently owned by you?
And you were informed, in your view, late by RDA, correct? I just want to be clear on my facts.
We were informed seven days ago by the Redevelopment Authority by form letter that there was a bill introduced which would affect our property. That's all we received, was a notice saying there is an ordinance proposed to City Council which could have an effect on your property giving the Redevelopment Authority the power to acquire our property. However, eight months prior to that, we were informed by phone by the developer that they had no interest in our project whatsoever, or our property.
Councilwoman, if I may, can we get -- is Mr. Wetzel still here? Could you ask Mr. Wetzel to come here and answer why he heard the other day because he called me the day he heard. What did you find out? You called me Monday and you found out Saturday or Friday, right? 49 6/9/05 - Committee on Rules Public Hearing
Mr. Wetzel, do you mind sitting at Councilman O'Neill's desk and respond to this, please?
Yes. My name is Herbert Wetzel, executive director of the Redevelopment Authority. The eminent domain statutes that the Redevelopment Authority operates under requires us to run advertisements, if there is an ordinance 16 being introduced, three consecutive weeks prior to the hearing. That's the statutory requirement. We agreed with Council last year that we would also then send a letter to each individual property owner notifying them beyond the added --
Mr. Wetzel, on that, so we can clarify this a little, because I think I know where you are going, this was a project at that point and I did an ordinance then that did not involve Mr. Clerkin's property? 50 6/9/05 - Committee on Rules Public Hearing
So that brings truth to what he said that he talked for Frankford Community Development Corporation, and he said your property was not involved, and that was last year sometime?
And you are saying, for us nonlegal minds, that eminent domain process says you have to advertise, but do you have to tell him?
What we added to that -- the advertisement satisfies the state statute. Council asked us to add an additional notification process, which we have done, which is to send individual notices to the individuals.
Mr. Wetzel, if I may still, Council President and Councilwoman, when did you advertise this? 51 6/9/05 - Committee on Rules Public Hearing
This was advertised three weeks prior to this hearing, each week prior to this hearing.
And Mr. Clerkin didn't get a letter until two weeks after that? I mean, it is hard enough you are doing this stuff because they think we are stealing something anyway. I never met him, never heard from him, lived across the street from Clerkin for 49 years, around that area, never met any of these guys, don't know them, know who you are, but it is disturbing that he finds that out a couple days before he has to be here. I mean we have the other people coming lying and we have him coming saying that it looks like -- that makes us look bad. I'm not blaming you, but you are the head of the Authority, so the bucks stops there.
We can change the way we do business. Also, we require -- and I think what is important is that you said there were community meetings and other meetings about this particular 52 6/9/05 - Committee on Rules Public Hearing project site. We can further in advance of the advertising send out these particular notices. So if would you like us to do it 30 or 60 days in advance --
You can cover the legal statute, but on a personal note the Clerkins should have known.
-- and 54 in the same location, our letter is addressed to property owner, 1512 Wingohocking, but the amendments and everything reference us by name. I would think we are owed a little courtesy.
I think you are too and that is going to change. It is not going to help you but in the future. But I think when the guy from Frankford gets up here, Culbertson, you and I -- your brother and I had this conversation. Culbertson told me that in this business there is a lot of speculation. I knew that they were looking at your property, but I didn't know it was finished 53 6/9/05 - Committee on Rules Public Hearing yet. I knew this was bill was here and, to be frank, I really didn't read it totally through, could it affect you. I figured, and that was my mistake, that they were talking to. I apologize to the Clerkin business that you didn't know. I should have told you that. The other people know. You should have known. Nino knew, the people that own the LA&P, the old Army Reserve Center, they know. I grew up at 4300 O Street. When all of them trucks were leaving those places all those years, I lived there, so I know what went on there. This is a good project. I understand you being mad, but the condemnation process gets you somewhere. Maybe he can explain a little bit. Do you understand the whole condemnation?
It's not the property. It is the business. That's our business. We are five minutes from I-95. We are five minutes from the Boulevard. Our subcontractors know us. Our suppliers know us. For us to pick up and go, we may not survive.
Has anyone else from the City like PIDC spoken to you -- 54 6/9/05 - Committee on Rules Public Hearing
That is exactly the problem. No one has contacted us. If the Redevelopment Authority was interested in our property, come and talk to us. You don't condemn our property and say there is a hearing in one week.
I'm not a lawyer. There may be legal reasons why that was done.
As a district councilman, I should have talked to you. I don't know you. I should know you. We live across the street from each other. Frankly, I didn't know -- I knew you were still in business, but there is not a lot going on there. The guy in front of you is closed up, so...
Not to get sidetracked, but the 1500 block of Wingohocking Street is thriving compared to what it was 15 years ago. We have Romano's across the street, which is a 55 6/9/05 - Committee on Rules Public Hearing thriving catering business. Next door to us we have Verizon, who is an excellent tenant who took over an abandoned A & P. CVS just bought the property on the corner directly across from us. It is a thriving commercial block from Frankford Creek to Castor Avenue, and to consider that blighted when there are so many other areas in the city that need help is absolutely ridiculous.
Thank you, Madam President. I am not a member of this committee, but I appreciate the opportunity to ask a question. You are a construction company?
What is your facility, the location where you are located? What do you have there?
We have a two-story building. The second story of the building is our 56 6/9/05 - Committee on Rules Public Hearing offices. It is approximately a 2500 square foot office. The lower level is our shop, the carpentry shop. We have a 25,000 square foot property which is our storage yard where we keep lumber, materials, trailers, and we also have an open shed area for storage. It is our headquarters. It is our business. It is our only location.
I understand that. I think what needs to be done is -- I mean I'm familiar with many condemnations that have taken place in my district over the last several years and it's always a painful experience when you have to, in the interest of trying to develop or redevelop a community, when you have to look to relocate people. And most of mine were residential relocations, not too many commercial, but 25,000 square feet I think in that general vicinity, I'm a little bit familiar with it, may not be that difficult a place to relocate to. And I know you want to stay where you are, but there may be some actual benefit to look at alternative sites, working with the District Councilperson and the Redevelopment Authority, where your business can not only thrive and be still part of that community, but may be able to enhance 57 6/9/05 - Committee on Rules Public Hearing because you may have some growing pains going forward possibly and the 25,000 feet, which is good enough for you today, accommodates you today, but you may want to look at something else and for the same dollar value. And I'm not suggesting you have anything, but I think you really need to sit down with the District Councilperson and Mr. Wetzel's department to look at some possible alternative option sites within the general vicinity of where you have been for all these years. Certainly none of us want to see you leave the community, because if you leave the community, my guess is you will probably leave the city.
We understand that. I think that can be worked out now that you have made that part of the public record, and not to be too light about it, but if you don't find anything, if at the end of the day it still is that you will have to be relocated, you can call me because I can certainly find you a place in my district close to I-95 because I have Aramingo Avenue and the 25th Ward. 58 6/9/05 - Committee on Rules Public Hearing And I don't mean that sarcastically. I mean that as an offer. If I could find you a place in my district that could accommodate your needs, I would be willing to work with the District Councilperson. Thank you, Madam President.
We hope that the Council would vote against this. We view it as very unfair and unnecessary.
To Mr. Herb Wetzel, for clarity purposes, for my own clear understanding of this, citizens, by statute, are required to be given how many days or weeks' advertising notice, relocation notice?
No; the notices that an ordinance and a hearing is being held three consecutive weeks prior to the hearing itself.
And that advertisement can take place by way of newspaper? 59 6/9/05 - Committee on Rules Public Hearing
Thank you. Any further questions or comments by members of the committee? Do we have anyone else to testify on this bill? Please approach the witness table.
Fine. Thank you. Kindly identify yourself for the record.
My name is Tom, Tom O'Donnell. I'm a lifelong resident of Junianta.
Tom, Tom, please pull the microphone closer to you.
My name is Thomas O'Donnell. I'm a lifelong resident of Juniata. I first noticed this was going on -- again, I have a habit of reading the legal notices, but there are a few concerns I have on this. I don't know if I am for it or I'm against it. Let me read the letter I wrote to the Juniata News. Maybe 60 6/9/05 - Committee on Rules Public Hearing that will clarify. You know, the residents of the community affected should attend and have our input heard regarding this urban renewal area. After all, it is our money, it is our community and it is our government. I, for one, would like to know that we do have any input regarding this. Do we have any input, or are we just dictated to what is going to happen? What is the total cost of the project? What is the total cost of the project and what is that total divided by the number of units? It's our money. And will they be build with union labor providing us with good jobs? I just heard that it is going to be guaranteed for one year? You know, it is our city. What is the sales price?
Mr. Wetzel, again I would ask you to please occupy Councilman O'Neill desk, and, if you don't mind, can you please give this gentleman the information that he is seeking?
I would actually ask Steve Culbertson from Frankford CDC, who is the developer, who has the details, to provide that for him.
Is he here? 61 6/9/05 - Committee on Rules Public Hearing
Please, but, if you don't mind, try to consolidate it.
I'll be quick. Just what is the sales price of the unit and who is eligible to buy them? Are there income limits? Just exactly how many subsidized low-income and high-income recipients? I make 30 to 40 grand a year, and I don't feel like subsidizing -- I don't feel it's right that I'm subsidizing someone that makes three or four times my salary and I don't think it's right that I'm paying for a free home for someone what is low income, Section 8 or however you want to put it, you know, giving them $150,000 home which is actually costing $200,000. If my taxes paid for this, you know, if my taxes paid for this, if I'm paying for the dinner, the people -- I'm working class. The people in this city are working class. The people are getting up in arms. I have a lot of immigrants in my community, and they are upset by this. They are upset if they are working for a living and I'm paying for a $200,000 home which we are selling for 62 6/9/05 - Committee on Rules Public Hearing 130,000 -- and I know the reply is going to be it's subsidized, there is no such thing as a government subsidy. All government subsidy is taxpayers. I pay taxes. Half my paycheck goes into taxes. I want a $200,000 home and I want to pay subsidized rent for it, but I'm not entitled to it. If I'm the one growing the food, cultivating it, harvesting it, cooking it, and putting it on the plate and putting it on the table and paying for everything, don't people who pay the bills be entitled to a plate? That's it.
I would like someone to respond to the questions that have been asked. Who is here to respond to the questions?
Sir, I believe that those people that will ultimately become the homeowner are also working people that pay taxes too. These homes are not given away free.
I know. The income requirement says you make at least $10,000 a year, but I still feel that the people who paid for it, pay for the meals, should be the ones entitled to 63 6/9/05 - Committee on Rules Public Hearing eat the meal. If I chip in a time, I shouldn't be able to get a steak dinner when somebody paying for the dinner gets crumbs.
Mr. Culbertson, I think you have information that could be very enlightening here. Would you mind sharing it with us?
I have no problem sharing it with you, Council President. My name is Steve Culbertson. I'm the executive director of the Frankford Community Development Corporation. The project is called the Twin Homes at Frankford Creek. It is a 50-unit twin development on land that is blighted in the Juniata section of Philadelphia right across the Frankford Creek from Frankford section, which is the area that I work in. The homes are three- and four-bedroom homes with two baths and a garage. The suggested sales price is $130,000 per house.
Let me testify, sir. The income requirements are, in fact, that 40 of the units will be available without 64 6/9/05 - Committee on Rules Public Hearing restriction up to 115 percent of median. There is a reason for that. And ten of the units, of the 50 units, would be available that are affordable to low-income people so that is at 80 percent of median.
I don't know what medium income is and what 80 percent is.
That is what I was going to ask be explained. Can you explain, please?
I don't actually know median income for an individual. I know median income for a family of four -- 80 percent of median income for a family of four is around $50,000 for a family of four. That's low income. That is what we define as low income in Philadelphia. So a lot of folks who feel like they are not low income, in fact are in the range of being able to afford those ten units, and then the additional 40 are open. They could sell to a low-income person or somebody who is moderate, maybe a lower middle class individual. The ability for someone to buy these 65 6/9/05 - Committee on Rules Public Hearing houses is open. They will be on the market just like any house in the City of Philadelphia. Most likely, they will be represented by a realtor and be sold through realtors. We cannot designate how the houses will be sold ahead of time. That's illegal.
Can I ask a question? Mr. Culbertson, did you have community meetings? It is kind of strange -- we all do development and have been doing it for years -- that he -- I think someone said, the other lady said, that there were no community meetings to inform people, and I just have a hard time understanding that.
I understand that. I am very involved as a part of my work in the East Frankford Civic Association. I talked to the Juniata Civic Association. They are right. I did not talk to them prior to the hearing last year. That is absolutely correct. But I did talk to them 66 6/9/05 - Committee on Rules Public Hearing after the hearing last year at their request. I met with the leadership of the Juniata Civic Association and again at their request I came to a community meeting that they sponsored, their meeting, to talk about this project -- that is a community meeting -- and attempted to explain the project, and it was a difficult meeting.
How many times did you meet with representatives of the Juniata Civic Association, more than once or once?
Which would be very kind. Can you explain to us what went on at the first meeting without being too politically correct but without using certain words that you are not 67 6/9/05 - Committee on Rules Public Hearing comfortable using.
I guess it was a very difficult meeting with the leadership of Juniata Civic. I tried to explain what the project was about, to try and basically revitalize the community. The purpose is to try and raise property values in the neighborhood, to have housing that is available across income groups, a mixed income development. Most of the time what community development corporations do is affordable housing, all affordable housing. That's not this project. We worked hard so that it would not be; it could be mixed. And so to answer your question, Councilman, it was a very hard meeting with the leadership. One of the major issues was that I was coming from Frankford and bringing Frankford residents from me -- with me over to Juniata, and we don't want those Frankford folks in Juniata.
Be more specific with your question, please, and maybe we 68 6/9/05 - Committee on Rules Public Hearing can get you an answer. We have any number of people that are waiting here --
I would like to request a continuance on this. Obviously there are still questions and issues. By what definition are you saying that Juniata is blighted? I did a Town Watch in Juniata and there are about two or three abandoned houses. What is exactly the definition of blighted? And Frankford CDC, exactly how many people are you? And, also, there's a few people like who don't want to leave. I'm just curious on -- the houses cost about $230,000 grand total. You are selling them for 130. Who is making up the difference? Who is making up the difference?
I'm certainly willing to meet with you and talk about these issues.
Sir, I met with the community in September and gave out this information. 69 6/9/05 - Committee on Rules Public Hearing
-- to get it put into the Juniata News and then let us discuss it. Look, I think it is great we are building new houses. The city needs new development and new houses, but the thing is I want to make sure that it goes to the people that work, the people that pay the taxes. I know everybody works. They are only eligible to people that work, but it drives me and the other neighbors --
I think you made a comment earlier that as long as somebody is making 10,000 a year they are eligible to purchase the property. Is that so, Mr. Culbertson?
Sir, it has to be open. You can sell to anybody. They have to meet the requirements to be able to pay a mortgage to buy this house. These are homes. We are selling these 70 6/9/05 - Committee on Rules Public Hearing homes.
There is a thing that you are giving houses to people that really can't afford them.
Mr. Culbertson, the low-income thing that Mr. O'Connell is concerned about, that's what you talked about the median?
So a Philadelphia policeman that comes out of the police academy, a recruit, makes $24,000 as soon as he gets out of the academy. So if he is married and has two children, he would be eligible to move here as low income; am 71 6/9/05 - Committee on Rules Public Hearing I correct about that?
Maybe this will help too. Your group, Frankford Community Development Corporation, as I know -- maybe you can explain it to Mr. O'Connell and some of the people here -- some of the stuff you have done before near Frankford. How many projects? This isn't your first project?
And you have done some really decent stuff in Frankford that has been touted not just in Frankford but different parts of Philly as cutting edge.
We have done five new construction homeownership projects in Frankford. That is about 50 units of housing that we sold that has all been subsidized heavily by the City of Philadelphia so that is all for low-income people at 80 of median and below. We have rehabilitated over 50 houses in the Frankford community. We have seen property values turn around because of what we are doing. We work on Frankford Avenue. We have helped businesses on Frankford Avenue. 72 6/9/05 - Committee on Rules Public Hearing I actually would make a note of apology to the Clerkins for what has transpired here and over the last two weeks. They are absolutely right. They should have received more notice and we should figure out how we deal with that in the future. I felt that I was following the policies as they're set out under urban renewal and that I had to be quiet about it, about what was transpiring, and so I can only apologize to them.
So the reason you are saying you didn't call the Clerkins is because --
You didn't think you were allowed through your dealings with the RDA, and if I could be so bold to say -- and correct me if I'm wrong -- there are speculators that are involved here too, which is probably why the RDA is concerned about this, you telling them and them selling it to somebody real quick and all of a sudden.
That is exactly right. 73 6/9/05 - Committee on Rules Public Hearing
When we have a legal notice like this, instead of putting it in the Inquirer or the Daily News, can we put it in the Juniata News, the local newspaper, so the residents know? Most people don't read the legal notices in the paper.
And I agree and, Mr. Wetzel, I think that is something that the Redevelopment Authority certainly should be addressing.
And the Juniata News would love to have the RDA paying for ads in the Juniata News once a week. They would love that. They could use the business. What I will say to you, since you have been trying to work with us here, we can meet in my office after this if you want to, Tom, with whoever you want, and we can try to discuss what is going on.
I just feel I'm paying for the dinner and I'm not getting the plate, or people that work like me.
But there is nothing to prohibit you from buying one of these 74 6/9/05 - Committee on Rules Public Hearing homes.
There is nothing prohibiting you from buying. Please state your name for the record.
My name is Debbie Munoz. I'm the new kid on the block. I own the property on the corner of Castor and Wingohocking and Cayuga. My husband and I purchased the business, buildings, goodwill and real estate in August 2001, and within a short few months we were presented by a customer with one of the architect's plans for the Frankford Twins which indicated two double homes on our property. From that point on we constantly were getting customers griping about how we were no 18 longer going to be there any longer. I would just like to say I beg to differ. I have contacted, researched absolutely everything regarding the Frankford Twins from the initiation at the 1999 Northern Delaware River project, everyone who has funded everything and been involved. I have also been in touch with HUD regarding my situation because shortly after I 75 6/9/05 - Committee on Rules Public Hearing purchased my business my husband became sick. At that point in time I realized he would not be able to operate the business anymore and I listed the property for sale and found out I was unable to sell the property because of the Frankford Twins. So, therefore, a business and a property that I purchased using my home as equity for, I am now losing my business and I'm losing my home and myself and my husband and my three children will be homeless as a result of this project, which I support. I would just like to sell my business and get out.
I don't know how much you paid for it, but you paid a lot of money to Nino's for it?
Yes, I did, and five years of his tax records indicated that that was the correct amount that should be paid. We also did demographics. My husband is Hispanic. We came into a community where when you get a business it takes a lot of money to keep your business going and develop 76 6/9/05 - Committee on Rules Public Hearing it and we were going to be developing a business more towards the community that we had moved into, but after spending a lot of money fixing the place up, we discover that we aren't going to be there any longer and why keep on spending money, putting in 7 hours a days seven days a week, when you aren't 8 going to have a future in that community? 9
Let me ask a 10 question of Mr. Wetzel. 11 What happens with her property now? If 12 you take her property away, you have to give her so 13 much money for this property, right?
We are required to pay just compensation or fair market value for the property.
Unfortunately, fair market, I understand from the laws of eminent domain, which I cannot obtain any in the State of Pennsylvania, 77 6/9/05 - Committee on Rules Public Hearing but I did obtain the booklet from the State of New Jersey, where I'm a residence, indicates that there are three different fair market values. One is real estate. One is the business and the real estate, and there is no information being published at all about owning a business, only a residence.
I don't want to ask what you paid for it because that is none of our business, but let's say you paid a million dollars for it.
Because I'm going to guess his weight next if I'm correct. If you bought that a year ago --
Mr. Wetzel, I don't want you to tell me what you are going to pay her for her property. She just bought it three years ago. It has to be worth a million dollars if she paid a million. 78 6/9/05 - Committee on Rules Public Hearing
When you purchase a business -- excuse me for interrupting you -- it includes real estate value, business appointment and buildings, and goodwill. Everything has a price. It's broken down. I paid one price for real estate, and another price is designated as the buildings that are on the real estate, and another price is based on the goodwill of the business, of the business that exists itself.
Actually, you look at his income tax records and think, "Geez, I'm getting a really good deal here."
I'm trying to help you here, but you are not helping. So you paid a million dollars?
And I don't want to know that, but I'm saying a million. If she paid a million three years ago, it has to be worth at least a million, right?
Explain to us not 79 6/9/05 - Committee on Rules Public Hearing necessarily because this is the kind of stuff that makes us all look stupid.
As she explained -- unless you can correct me on this -- you paid a million dollars that included goodwill, property and buildings and machinery and equipment.
And our obligation is to pay the fair market value for the real estate and to have any machinery and equipment valued and pay for that as well.
Let's say the machinery is worth a hundred thousand dollars. Subtract that out because she can sell that technically.
Or if she doesn't, we have to purchase it and try to sell it ourselves.
Is she going to get anywhere near her million dollars, Herb?
I don't know the specifics of this case. 80 6/9/05 - Committee on Rules Public Hearing
No, I am not getting anywhere near my million dollars. This is very upsetting for me to be here. I'm not a good public speaker, but I want you all to see my face because my husband and I and our three children are going to be homeless, period. His tax records were rock solid for us to take that -- purchase that business. It made every bit of sense, and then to go there and have this come before us was devastating, absolutely devastating, to the point my husband became ill. On my counsel's advice I have closed that business and walked away.
I have to tell you it is heart-wrenching for us that someone else sold you this place -- do you mind? If you don't like it, then leave. I'm talking to her. You have nothing to do with this. This is ridiculous. Sergeant-at-arms, could you ask her to behave herself.
This woman is bleeding here and we want to hear it. Maybe you have a preconceived notion of how this Council runs, but that is not the way it works. This is fair for 81 6/9/05 - Committee on Rules Public Hearing everyone, and we just want to hear it. This is the first time I met you. I met your husband when it first happened.
I haven't heard from you, didn't know it was closed, which I did.
Actually, Mr. Mariano, I have called you on numerous occasions. You never returned my call. I have been in touch with John Taylor, and I have been in touch with other people. (Applause.)
Now that you are going there, if you called my office, I live two blocks away. My phone number is listed, so you really didn't call real hard. If you call my office, give me the times and dates and who you spoke to in my office.
Actually, I worked in the New Jersey Superior Court for 13 years, and I document everyone I speak to and the time and when I make the phone call.
Yes, I did, sir. 82 6/9/05 - Committee on Rules Public Hearing
Because I'm trying to help you here. If I wanted to get you or Mr. Munoz or anybody --
If I wanted to get somebody and it was ruining my life, I would stand outside their house. I live two blocks away.
But you can't do that when your husband is ill and you are working seven days a week hours a day. 13
You said you called my office and nobody responded. That's great to say at a meeting like this. You either want help or you don't. You didn't contact me and you should have. And we're trying to help.
Any questions or comments from members of the committee? Thank you both very much. Do we have any other witnesses on this particular bill? Good morning. Please identify yourself for the record.
Good morning, Madam 83 6/9/05 - Committee on Rules Public Hearing President and members of the committee. My name is Warren Nelson. I'm a realtor with Weichert Realtors Dunphy Sales, and I'm here representing over 5 clients that are interested in purchasing properties 6 in the new development. 7 I'm basically here for my clients today 8 to try to get clarity on where we stand as far as 9 the zoning and how soon agreements of sale can be 10 written on the new properties in Frankford Creek 11 Development Corporation. That is basically what I'm 12 here for today, representing my clients in order to 13 try to get clarity. If the zoning has been 14 approved, does the Frankford CDC now own the land 15 and, if so, how soon can agreements of sale be 16 written on the properties? And that is basically 17 what I'm trying to do here for my clients today. 18
Please specify who 19 your clients are. What does that mean? 20