Could we -- the Sergeant-at-Arms will get those pictures from you 222 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 so that we can see them. Thank you very much, Mr. Carter.
Mr. Carter, that's -- you're describing the situation that exists currently on that block of 1900 Nedro. It also affects Conlon Street?
I was told one time that that was a party wall, and all parties of Nedro and Conlon Street were responsible, but when we got it fixed, we only got neighbors from Nedro Avenue to contribute to fix the wall.
And when you stand on Conlon Street, I understand, you can look up and see the road, the bottom of the road on Nedro; is that right?
Yes. Since the collapse of the wall, yes. Yes, you can see it by the pictures when you get them. That is a very dangerous condition and children can go underneath that driveway where the wall fell and get trapped under there, as well as some cars or trucks are still using the driveway, which the driveway itself has a chance of collapsing. In fact, there's a crack in the driveway now. 223 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041
And among the politicians that you met with at various times was myself, Councilman David Cohen, right?
My name's Ralph Wynder. I'm representing the 38th Ward as the ward leader as well as the residents coalition community organization of which I'm the chairperson, that's Ridge Allegheny Huntington Civic Association and the North Penn Civic Association. I'd like to first say good afternoon to all Councilmembers who are present, and I'm here to express my support for Resolution 41. In our area, neighbors have come alive in recent years with campaigns to clean up our community. We have waged a war against dirt in our community, and we have armed ourselves with brooms, bags, shovels, 224 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 hoses, in a effort to clean up all around us. But there is one problem that exists that, even with brooms, shovels, and hoses, we cannot remedy, and that is the problem of retaining walls that are crumbling, alleyways that are crumbling and have debris that prohibit people from going in and out, and driveways which are in very bad shape. When I first moved in the 3300 block of Allegheny Avenue, the driveway behind my home was in very terrible, terrible condition. And the neighbors in our community, in the front of my home and in the back street, all got together in a effort to repair this problem by selling chances. And we sold chances and we raised money; some participated and others didn't. But with the money that we saved, we went out and we got a contractor, and he attempted to do some work. Well, we didn't raise nearly enough money to cover the damage of that driveway. And so what we were able to get done, it was done. But over the years, of course, what wasn't done affected what was done, and crumbling and deterioration continue to exist, even with our 225 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 best efforts. We see that, you know, in some communities, money from the City is allocated for various housing programs. And in the 38th Ward, which is a part of the 4th Councilmatic District, which encompasses North Philly, Germantown, and a large part of East Falls, the major problem in our community doesn't already to be abandoned housing; it does appear to be economic improvements that are needed with these retaining walls and these driveways and these alleysways which need attention. We are in 100 percent in harmony with parts of the City that have great abandonment and poor housing stock, we've 100 percent in agreement with them receiving funds to solve that problem. But we do not feel our area, which has other types of problems, that we should be covertly, consciously, or unconsciously discriminated against because we do not have the type of abandoned housing, but we have other problems that need attention from the City. And so we are, you know, calling upon the City Councilmembers and all of those to be, as 226 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 a part of their urban blight removal, to include this problem, just as they are attacking the problem of abandoned cars and abandoned homes. We think that this problem of retaining walls and driveways and alleys crumbling in the eyes of the people is a fault of the City, and they have abandoned us because we need their assistance, because there is no way that the residents of these homes can accomplish this problem, there's no way. If I fixed the back of my home without the support of the homes that adjoin it or are up the street from it, there's no way that my home's problem won't come back again because this problem is comprehensive. It is not piecemeal. We need the support of the City. The City clearly saw this as a problem back in 1980, or what was testified recently, because instead of considering these areas condemned and making the homeowners deal with the problem, then the City found the need to just stop dealing with that condemnation and stop making homeowners pay for a problem because they recognize that the problem was overwhelming, that the problem was unfair, and that the neighbors should not be charged for 227 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES.
000041 fixing that area. But in one sense, that was compassionate; in another sense, it was far too little. Because where you are not charging the neighbors or making them fix up their properties, you've let the properties to continue to deteriorate, to continue to destruct. And what you've done basically is allow the problem to escalate to the point of, I see where the City's records show that there were, what, 63, 63 retaining walls that needed serious repair back in '78. The number today is 189. Somebody testified today that 90 of those properties are very seriously damaged. So the problem continues to triple and cripple our neighborhood. The problem continues to escalate, while folks look on and wait for someone else to take care of it. Well, we think that the City government, in an effort to protect and support its citizenry, should come to the aid of these folks because the problem will not be solved if people are unable and unwilling to deal with this problem in a comprehensive fashion. My community showed that we will 228 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 attempt to solve the problem, but we cannot go far enough without funding and some resources. Other communities have clearly attempted to do this. The gentleman earlier, in his testimony from the City, stated that about 58 or so, 58 walls were fixed without the City's support. So this means that neighbors have put forth their best efforts to solve this problem but just are incapable of handling the mass deterioration that has occurred across the City. Clearly, it is the job of government to step forward and assist the citizens who are trying to do their best. And I'm appealing to members of the Council today, I'm appealing to those people in those communities which are falling apart, even as they try to clean them up and fix them up. I'm appealing to everyone who has a role in this problem to come forward and do their best. Even if the City is not capable of funding 100 percent of this problem, then they should at least cover two-thirds of the problem, as the citizens do their best to handle what they can. You know, I think that this is only fair to ask of it. We might as well recognize that this 229 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 problem will not go away and it will not improve without the help of city government. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Wynder. Let me put some additional information on the record, and then Mr. Fortt is going to go on. Mr. Bradley, I thought you had indicated that you had sought some cost estimates for your wall, and I don't believe you mentioned exactly what it was.
We did. We spoke to a contractor, and this is for a driveway, not for a wall. He gave us several options. Right now, what the driveway is, or is supposed to be, is concrete. He said that he could simply put two inches of asphalt over the top of it, the length of the driveway. The cost of that was $17,000, which would have been $170 per household, if we have 100 percent participation, which, as I said, we're having difficulty getting close to that. He said that if we wanted him to remove the old concrete, lay a new foundation and then put an asphalt top, it would be $30,000. And he 230 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 said if we want concrete, he said that's basically out of the question, in all likelihood, but it cost anywhere 60, 70 or $80,0000 to do.
Okay. And, Mr. Moffitt, my recollection of our situation, Berks-Euclid, the history on that in terms of cost, I believe there was a cost estimate back in the '95-'86 timeframe, it may have been about 14-or-so thousand dollars to fix that wall back at that time.
No, this was -- in '78, it would have been $11,000. And then it escalated -- from that time to 1993, it went to close to $200,000.
Right. It went to 198 and now the most recent estimate is $258,000 for the Berks-Euclid wall. Thank you. I just wanted to get that cost on the record. There's been a lot of discussion about that. Mr. Fortt.
Yes. Good afternoon. My name is Robert Fortt. And I'm here too to support Councilman Nutter's bill. 231 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 I own a property that's on 60th -- between 61st and 62nd and Jefferson. Adjacent to that property Nassau Road, and there is a retaining wall that has totally collapsed. We've sought how to go about fixing it, talked to Councilpeople, had skirmishes with the City, saying it is my wall, it's the neighbor's wall, whose wall is it. It's plain that these gentlemen here have also had similar problems. Probably the worst problem is that we don't have a solution and we're coming to you for some solutions. I can only echo what they're saying, and they're saying more than what I could say myself. So I'm just saying that I want to support your bill. And I do, too, have pictures of the wall before and after.
Yes. I thought you might. Okay,. Thank you very much Mr. Fortt. 232 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 If there are no other questions for this set of witnesses, we will have the next set up. Let me first thank you for your testimony. We expect at the end of the testimony that Mr. Lonie will come back up, and we want to get some information on the record in terms of potential funding sources for this kind of work. And then, ultimately -- and your testimony is very helpful and you've been very straightforward. Ultimately, it is a decision for the City to make as to how to respond to this issue. For me, there is virtually no difference between what our response should be to a dangerous property. When we send out a notice, the person either can fix it or not fix it, but at some point in time, the City will come, in fact, and demolish that property and remove the dangerous condition. This is a slightly different situation, but the result ultimately should be the same. We can send the notices out. If people don't respond, there is a clear threat to the public safety, health, and welfare of people in these situations, and there is an obligation, I believe, 233 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 on the City's part to respond to it. And if that's means fixing it and trying to figure out the funding or some level of participation by the homeowners, I don't think that is inappropriate. But to leave them for 10, 15, 20, going on now some-odd-30 years, there are two things that are going to happen: One, people become more entrenched in their opposition to do anything about it; and, two, the cost begins to increase in an astronomical fashion, which only leads people to not want to put any of their money in it. Councilman DiCicco?
Could I ask a question, and Councilman Nutter, I'm not very familiar with this. I understand the problems related retaining walls, but I'm not familiar with any City assistance that may have been offered. Was there ever a time where there was any offer of assistance, similar to what the -- when we have broken (unintelligible) for people who have limited incomes, where we have a certain amount of time to pay off the debt that's incurred?
Councilman, my experience with this has primarily been with the 234 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 Berks-Euclid wall, although I've had other experience with Stewart Street and Oxford Street and a number of others. In the Berks-Euclid situation, the response I received two months into my first term, in early '92, was that there was no 7 money to take care of this or respond to this problem; it was the property owners' problem, and that's the way it was left. And I continued to push in that regard. And to fast-forward to late last year, after the bill was passed, Mr. Moffitt will recall, we actually had a bill passed similar to our problems that we've been having with stop signs and traffic signals, I had a bill passed. I was told by the Administration at that point, the then-administration -- it's a new administration now -- that they would commit to $100,000 toward a problem that was, at that time, estimated to be 198, but that the City would only put up its money at the point when all of the neighbors had put up out of their money first, and then the City would match it that. That becomes a chicken-and-egg scenario, where the neighbors, some of whom might 235 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 actually participate, you don't get the others, and the City gets to sit back say Well, you know, we tried but the neighbors don't want to do anything and, you know, whenever they get their act together, we'd be glad to put up some support.
There has never been an offer of payment plan. I've had discussions with the Administration about capital funding over an extended period of time and taking a portion of our capital program every year dedicated to this. It is clear to me from reading the HUD regulations that the community block development grant funds are eligible to be used for these kinds of purposes. Again, this is not building houses; this is really more about stabilizing neighborhoods, and I would not propose to take any large, sizable amount of CDBG funds. But, again, if we get $79 million, if you put or million aside for these kinds of problems, and we'll have more of this discussion with Mr. Lonie, you could lay out a schedule of what you want to do maybe 236 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 over the next four to five years combined with capital funds. There this just has not been the interest we have creatively figured out how to solve a whole host of problems around here, and this is one that people have desperately tried to avoid for a long period of time.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you very much, gentlemen. Mr. Donald Green. Ms. Edith Hart, Mr. John Teague, Mr. James Grant, Ms. Janice Gary, Mr. James Carter, and Miss Jean Thomas. Well, why don't we have Mr. Neal Parnell also come up, and that will exhaust the list. (Witnesses come forward.)
My name is Jean Thomas, and I am a community activist, and I'm concerned about my block, which is the 200 block of North Horton Street. 237 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 And, Michael, I support your bill but, you know, the 200 block of North Horton Street is a poor block, and the people don't have anything. And these houses, they just seem like they're deteriorating. What makes me mad and pisses me off is, they stay there so long and deteriorate, and it goes on and on and on. And then when they decide to tear them down, then they damage other people's properties. And I believe the City owns 'em and the City better fix 'em up, because I'm just sitting of here, listening to all of this, you know, going on. They had money when all of these houses start sinking in Wissinoming, or whatever it is. Well, they better have money for our community, too. Because, see, I'm sick and tired of it. If you ask me, it's a racial thing. It's a disgrace. When I bought my house, the lady told me, she said, I've been here over 50 years. There was a playground, nothing in it, hadn't done a thing to it. I said, Oh, no, our tax dollars go like this, they're not concerned about our community. Now maybe we'll get a decent playground. But the house that's right next to 238 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 the playground, that's falling in too. So you better get L&I out there. And them jack-legged contractors that you sent before, we don't need 'em no more, because they put their little truck up there on the lot and sped off 90 miles an hour and damaged property across the street. It don't make sense. And we want -- need our alleys fixed. They have never, ever been fixed along there in the 200 block of Horton, and I am on the south side of the street, okay?
Never, ever. So they need to go on the north and the south side of the 200 block. I know what they're doing now. Sure, they got L&I out there now, giving us water pipes and sewer pipes, which makes me think, Oh, they doing all this? What are they trying to do, push us out after they get this all in and condemn everything? I don't know. It's, you know, you got to watch these people very closely, I'm going to you.
You better keep your eyes 239 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 open.
And all the houses, we got about five in the block that belong to PHA but that one at 238 should be unfit for human habitation, and I'm saying the Philadelphia Housing Authority, right along with L&I, they are no good to -- not to condemn that place. The beams in the kitchen keep falling, no heat in the house, but yet he collects money, he's a owner, and he put it in the hands of the Philadelphia Authority, and he collects rent.
It's a disgrace. And I cussed him out, I sure did. I told him, You don't live like that and you live out on the Main Line, get out of my community. And I meant it, too.
I know you did. And you know from our previous conversations that we are working on that. We did have --
Well, Michael, right across the street from me, 237, we would have never knowed it but for the kids throwing the balls, the ball went up there, was thrown in the 240 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 house. They went up there to get it, a great big hole. So that's another one going fall, so you can expand the playground now. Get it knocked down now, don't wait.
And these -- the houses that they did tear down on 62nd Street and Horton Street, they didn't retain them walls. No, indeed they didn't. They only came to 238 and retained that porch.
I seen the birds making the birdhouses, getting the woods and going in there. And the people came to me and I told 'em to get a lawyer and sue 'em, I said, 'cause this city is rotten. When it comes to your tax dollars, you should get something for it. And the only reason why they tore it down was because it was falling down, and I told 'em if any of these kids get hurt and it was a open porch, you're going to be sued.
And I said I'm going to be a witness for everybody on the street. And we had 241 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 taken pictures anyway, because we were tired of, you know, calling and telling 'em.
If they could come along and go to every house that's vacant and get in it if it's sealed, and if it's no good, tear it down and build it up, don't make our property value go down. They built up in other communities. See, I'm sick and tired of this city. And, see, I know the games that they play, Michael. You know I wasn't born yesterday, you know I know the games that they play in this town.
And, yes, I told the people on 62nd Street, too. That house was so bad on 62nd Street. That lady lives in 239, it came 242 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 out in the alley. It was, oh, about this wide, it was like a tree, and then it swerved and missed my house and went onto 239 and the house next door to tear their fence down --
-- before they decided to do anything. And then when they did knock it down, all of the debris is still out there in the alley, you know.
And the blocks aren't even smoothed off or nothing, and the kids could run over there. It's like live wire, you know. I don't know if it's coming from cable or where, but it's live wire.
I will check on all of that for you, Miss Thomas. Thank you.
This game-playing is too much, and I'm tired of it. I'm going, I've had 243 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 enough.
Thank you. Thank you, Miss Thomas. Thank you. Yes, ma'am. Please identify yourself for the record.
My name is Edith Hart, and I represent the 5700 block of Stewart Street, the even side. Our retaining wall fell down in 1988, and they told us what we could do: we could do nothing, get a private contractor, or let the City do it. I took the petition had it signed sign properly, and we gave it to the City, and they told us they had no one to bid for the job.
So the City attempted to find a contractor, put the contract out for a bid, and none of the contractor community responded to it?
And your block was actually prepared to try to pay for it.
The homeowners, we were told we were responsible. Whether it fell down behind 244 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 your house or not, the whole block. And so far, nothing has been done.
When Ann Land was in, when Councilwoman Ann Land was in, 'cause she hooked me up with the Commissioner of Streets at that time.
Yes, in 1988, it fell. And it's still down, and some of the children that come back there, they're going to get hurt back there.
Now, I do have some pictures that were submitted. They must have been submitted on the other side, and you can't really see the full damage that it's done, but I'll submit these. The lady that was supposed to testify didn't come today, but I have other 245 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 pictures that I can send to you and you can see a fuller picture of what it really is going on.
Okay, all right. Let me just add for the record that according to the Streets Department, the estimate on that wall back in 1989 was apparently $76,500. The estimate this year is $148,500, which is about a 100 percent increase in estimated costs for your wall. Miss Hart, anything else?
My name is John Carter, and I'm representing the 5900 block of Woodcrest Avenue. I've contracted your office before, Mr. Nutter, about the problem we had repairing a spot 246 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 in the driveway, which PGA had dug up previously,.
They had repaired part of a -- repaired a pipe in the driveway, they filled it with blacktop, and over the years, that sunk in. Well, anyway, that problem was taken care of. And the only thing I'd like to say now is, we have other problems in the driveway that we've been trying to correct and contacted your office to get some kind of -- exactly what are the standards that you go by, you know, as far as repairing the driveway, whether you have to use blacktop, cement or whatever, and what depth, you know, that the concrete should be. And that's a problem we have, as far as getting any kind of specifications. I did get some reply from the office -- from the Streets Department about some specifications. And the other thing is getting a 247 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 contractor to adhere to those specifications. A lot of contractors come out and they say they want to do it a certain way and, you know, their way is the only way. And the other thing is getting the people in the neighborhood to agree on who's responsible. You know, if you don't -- if my driveway is okay and the back of my house, a lot of people say, There's nothing wrong with my driveway, you know.
Right. They're not dealing with the fact that whatever that problem is at the upper end or the lower end or in the middle, it's going to spend and eventually affect them.
Yes, yes. And people are willing to undertake the responsibility to get it done and other people are not. And, you know, we do need help with this problem. And even if it's just to set the guidelines as to how you go about it and what is accepted and what is not. 248 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041
When we have Mr. Lonie back up, I'm going to ask him about that. And if you're able to stay, I'm sure that he can give us the answer, and we do expect people to adhere, when they do the work, to certain guidelines, and that's the permit that they would get, but we'll go through all of that with Mr. Lonie.
My name is John Teague. And I'm President of Central Manayunk Council, and I'd like to thank Councilman Nutter and all members of Council for allowing me the opportunity to present testimony with reference to Resolution 19 41. On behalf of the Manayunk community, I am humbly requesting that you give Councilman Nutter your full support on this proposed amendment to the City ordinance that pertains to alleys, driveways, and retaining walls. It is my understanding that currently, repair and 249 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 maintenance of the above-mentioned infrastructures is the sole responsibility of the homeowner if their property is abutted or, for lack of a better word, connected to an alley, driveway, or a retaining wall. Although downtown Manayunk is a successful model for the region in urban economic development and the home of many new buildings, the surrounding residential community has not been maintained in some areas since its conception, in the late 1800s to the early 1900s. Simply put, my community is very old. In the near future, Central Manayunk Council will submit a small list of alleys, driveways, and retaining walls to the office of Councilman Nutter that are in need of repair and require the attention of the Streets Department. Three retaining walls in particular that require repairs for many years are now in jeopardy of causing harm to school children and the general public. There is a retaining wall that extends from Tower Street and Lyceum Avenue to Fleming Street and Lyceum Avenue that is already crumbling 250 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 in some locations. This wall extends approximately 30 feet high above the sidewalk. Lyceum Avenue is better known as "the Manayunk Wall." Wall number two is immediately around the corner from Lyceum Avenue and is located between two elementary schools on Silverwood Street between Lyceum/Levering and Graves Street. Many school children lean and huddle along this wall, unaware of the potential danger. The other wall that has raised concern is the wall that divides Main Street and Ridge Avenue, located on the 3800 block of Main Street. When driving by this wall, it is clear to see that other people -- that others are also concerned because they made a haphazard attempt to make some repairs. This wall also supports the sidewalk and the street, and the deterioration continues due to the rain water erosion. To continue to place large unforeseen public structure responsibilities on everyday working families, the taxpayer, is unfair. A large majority of families in Manayunk and in other sections of the City are working 60 or more 251 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 hours a week just to make ends meet and cannot afford added such an financial burden. I am confident that you will do the right thing and give break to the little guy and work with Councilman Nutter on this very important issue. Thank you.
First of all, my name is Earl Grant, and I am representing the 5300 block of Sydenham Street.
And before you get started, Mr. Grant, is Mr. Donald Green here, Mr. James Grant or Mr. Neal Parnell? (No response.)
Okay, please 252 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 proceed.
First I want to read a letter from my block captain that she wrote to -- Miss Brenda Kaiser (ph.).
To City Council. The concerned neighbors of the 5300 of Sydenham Street in the 5300 block of 15th Street have been tapped with a major problem. We have been faced with the repair of a retaining wall for the past about 12 years ago or more, okay? 13 During those years, Councilman David 14 Cohen put forth an effort to help us resolve this 15 problem. At that time, it wasn't clear who was responsible. Therefore, nothing was done. It is my understanding that there is a file in City Hall concerning this problem. This wall has become very dangerous and there are two large trees growing beneath it, and the wall is falling down. There's a driveway above and below it. Due to this problem, the trash collectors will no longer pick up track in the driveway. On the 29th of February, the wall collapsed again. The impact was so great that it 253 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 shook the homes. This would have been a tragedy if someone were walking by or if a child was playing the area, as they often do. If you recall last year, at 33rd and Diamond, there was a tragic and fatal accident which took the life of a little boy, due to a damaged retainer wall. We would not like for history to repeat itself and take the life of another person. The City once served notice, on May 19, 1998, that each home would be charged a large sum of money to rebuild the wall, then later we were told at a town meeting that we should get a private contractor to do the work. We discovered that no private contractor was willing to give an estimate because of the difficulty in collecting from individual homeowners. This leads us back to you. We are seeking some type of point financial assistance where each homeowner will be held liable -- or a supplement that will help us defray the cost. Approximately two years ago, we received an estimate from a private contractor in the amount of $51,488. 254 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 This is blight on our neighborhood. We need your help. And it's signed by Block Captain Brenda Kaiser. Council, I just have a couple of statements that I would like to make on behalf my block.
Now, we had a local television station that came out, Channel 61. They came to our community last summer and they taped a half-hour segment. That segment is available from Councilwoman Reed's office. We have it on video that shows very graphically the problem that we are having with this wall. There are certain things that were brought out and were made public and were made known to the interviewer, Miss Carolyn Pugh, okay. Case in point: if we have a major fire in the community whereas if a fire truck needs to come down in that driveway, they can not do so. As Brenda's letter so eloquently mentioned, also the trash collection, they will not come out of danger or harm to themselves. 255 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041
They have changed it to front, okay. And that, to me, is only putting a Band-Aid on a severe wound.
It's a clear indication that there's a problem, and it's not the sanitation side of the house, it's really not their issue; their responsibility is to try to pick up your track. If they can't do it in the back, they just say, Let's do it in the front. I mean, it's of no interest to you as which part of the government has any responsibility but, I mean, they solved their problem for the time being, which does nothing for you.
This is exactly true. I talked to a repeat neighbor who just moved into the community, and I asked her very specifically, did the Realtor mention that wall as a part of the sales pitch? The Realtor said, and I quote, "That is not your problem." I said to her, Well, it is going to be your problem.
It is absolutely 256 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 her problem.
Okay. So -- but my point is that Realtors are telling people, because they know this is a genuine problem when it comes to try and sell these homes, that this not their problem. Then people will come in and find out that this is they problem. On the subject of real estate, as you know, this does bring down the value of a property, because who wants to look out their back window and see a 30-some-odd foot retaining wall that's collapsing right before their eyes. Now, this retaining walls runs the entire length of the back of my home. I live on the 5300 block of Sydenham Street. It's at least a 20-foot high wall that provides for the foundation of the 15th Street side. Their driveway is actually supported by this retaining wall. And in two locations that this wall has fell, it looks like actually a cave. That's how large of an opening it is.
You've got a 257 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 high-low situation.
Yes, sir. Okay, and what has happened is, these large stone structures, when the wall was constructed over 50 years ago, they were constructed, I believe, erroneously inasmuch as that the base of the wall did not have a place for water to escape. And in doing so, the trees took root. And, as you know, you cannot hold back these trees, and they actually push the wall out, and the wall actually collapsed. And you can see this large, I would say, 8- to 10-inch trunks that are actually going beneath this driveway. It is a real, real problem. It's a problem with children that have taken up to climbing up, thinking this is an area to play. I've chased them from there myself many, many, many times. It's a problem with people who decide to throw their trash there because they think we don't care -- when, in fact, just by evidence of all the testimony that has been before you today, sir, we do care. And we will take responsible action as we can but, you know, our numbers are few and the task is large. 258 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 And, you know, if we go back to just looking at Mr. Street's campaign to remove blight, sir, just to coin a phrase: If we have blight, it ain't right. It's the only way that we're going to -- we got to fix this. We got to bring the focus back to the neighborhoods.
I need you to say that again for the record, make sure we get that right.
Okay, sir. Not to take anything away from Mr. Cochran. You know, we've heard it all today. We've heard it from every neighborhood in your community. As the Streets Department has put forth a very good map and I would like to have a copy of this to see how big the problem is, but it's a real problem. And we as individuals do not have the resources, do not have the manpower, do not have the ability, if you will, to fix this as individuals. So, therefore, we come before our 259 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 government to give us some assistance.
Mr. Grant, one, thank you very much for your testimony. It has been right on point. Two, in any of our discussions with the neighbors, similar to some of the other neighborhoods that have testified, has there ever been discussion about some level of partial payment by the neighbors with obviously some significant City support? And if you had that discussion, can you tell us a little bit as to what the reaction was?
We've had several discussions, Councilman Nutter. The subject has always come up and, as you heard in earlier testimony, it always starts at a relatively smaller amount. I believe when I first started hearing about the discussion, it only worked out to about $1,000 a home, if every home contributed. That price is probably closer to $2,000 a home now if every home contributes. We do not have 100 percent participation. We've heard all the stories that that's not my problem, that's not my wall, that belongs to the City. I've heard it all, to the 260 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 point where I don't use that driveway. I use the argument of saying, if you have a fire or a medical emergency and that's the only path they have to get to you, how are they going to do that?
And, you know, we think this is a problem that needs to be addressed.
Now, I remember being in that driveway -- did you say 15 years ago? It was many years ago.
Yes, sir. Yes, sir. We've met with you on this, I would say, years ago. 20
There was a storm when the first wall fell. I was in my back bedroom, and the storm had still been going on. 'Cause at one time, along with this particular retaining wall, 261 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 someone put double courses of cinder blocks across the top of it, I guess, to reinforce it. It's only cosmetic, it did nothing to reinforce the wall. The wall is still deteriorating.
Right. Thank you very much. Thank you. Mr. Lonie? (Mr. Lonie returns to witness table.)
Mr. Chairman, before we have Mr. Lonie on, I would like to have some documents entered into the record as if they had been read. First is a letter from Carolyn Sutton, 3429 West Penn Street. That's a letter that's been distributed. I'd like to give that to the stenographer to add to the record. (Sutton letter attached hereto.)
In addition, there are some letters and written testimony on retaining from Miss Tameka Jones, 5791 Hunter Street; Miss Jane Glenn, President, Manayunk Neighborhood Council; Mr. John Teague, who did in fact testify, from Central Manayunk Council. With regard to driveways: E. Younger-Bagby, 2639 West Westmoreland Street; 262 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 Mr. Dennis L. Moore, Democratic Committee Person, 38th Ward, 2nd Division, regarding the 3300 block of Fox, the 3200 block of Bailey, the 2600 block of West Westmoreland; and Mr. John Altomare, the 4100 block of Merrick Street. I'd like to have all of those added to the record, Mr. Chairman. (All above-noted correspondence attached hereto.)
Could you share with us, when the Streets Department did do this kind of work in the past and, again, we let a contract and there was no City money put into this; is that the way it worked?
Okay. Has there ever been a time when there was City money?
Not that I'm aware of, not for this type of -- again, the only time you would 263 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 have any type of City money involved is if this was -- and there was one that I sort of remember because -- and it really wasn't the City, it was the School District, where you had the schools on one side of the whole thing, and they had agreed to pave over wall if the adjoining people paid for the driveway.
Okay. Let me ask you this question. Based on your experience, as well as the legal memorandum, can you tell us what information you may have about the prospect of either City capital dollars, community block grant development funds, or any special assessment that could be made over some relatively short period of time where the City, in conjunction with the Board of Revision of Taxes, and/or the Revenue Department May, might be able to add a special level of assessment to the neighbors for their real-estate taxes in order to get the repayment over some period of time?
Right. Well, let me answer that, then I'll get to Councilman Cohen's question. I think there's a lot of things we can 264 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 do. I think if we put our heads together as a city government that there are grant programs and different things like that that could be put back. We could start some type of a revolving fund where some community grant money could be used to start with. We would have to initiate a system of collecting bills over a longer period of time. If that came back in, that could refurbish the fund. How much money was left in the fund would be how much we could dole out the next year. The one thing with that, and I just want to warn Council, and hopefully I'll be back here in the spring with some of this legislation, is that if we use anything except assessment bills, there's a little caveat in the Code that if we do not use assessment bills for the abatement of this nuisance, every one requires an ordinance 19 of Council. So I will be coming back here asking for Council, if we do --
The abatement process. If we use anything other than assessment bills, which are made out in favor of the homeowner or to the 265 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 contractor, it requires an ordinance of Council. So if we go against the thing, if we just say, Okay, we're not going to pay any money or we're not going to administer this fund, then we're still going to have to come back to Council to get their permission, so it's going to be your decision, which of these driveways and different things get done.
Okay. And on that particular point, if you could forward to the Chair a rather detailed memo explaining the particulars of what you've laid out and what the different scenarios are, that would be helpful, and what the particular Code section is that you're referring to.
Mr. Lonie, why can't we reinstate the system that existed up until it was discontinued in 1980? Not every -- not every homeowner needs the City to take over the financial responsibility. Those that do ought to be helped by the City. But take the Woodcrest Avenue block, which was mentioned before by Mr. Bradley who, I think, represented them. He stated his community 266 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 basically was able to pay for it. Now, the need here is not just money; the need is, how do you get a community together? When it comes to expenditures of money, it is very difficult -- in fact, it's impossible for the community to have any effective way of bringing everybody into the ballgame. And the only way you get everybody into the ballgame is the way the City used to do it: they would send out the Health Inspector, who would then give a recommendation, which would cause the condemnation. Everybody would get a notice that they had to fix it up, and then the City put out an advertisement, you know, put out an RFP and handed out a contract. The problem was on the payment. I think that's an area where the City can take over the responsibility. Why couldn't a system work in which we went back to the old method?
And then -- wait, let me finish -- I'm just getting rid of this luncheon bag. We go back to the old method, and the 267 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 City enter into a contract in which the City pays the contractor. Therefore, you're not going to have to have inflated bills, and people owe the City the money, and the City puts a lien on their house if they don't pay it. That's what happens, say, if you demolish a house. What's wrong with that? Most of the people, where they can pay, will enter into an agreement to pay the City, just as they entered into an agreement to pay the contractor. That would limit the City's liability, it would take care of the contractor's concerns about not getting paid, and the City might get some contractors to apply.
I agree 100 percent, but we need -- as I discussed with Councilman Nutter, we need to prime the pump, we need to isolate funds that should be used legally, outside of the operational funds. But if we could isolate funds to get this program started so that then you would get the tax bills going, that's what we have to do. That's what this Council is charged with doing.
Well, I don't know 268 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 why we have to isolate funds any more than we isolate funds for the Police Department.
Because that's for the public benefit. This is still private property.
Oh, I think the City faces enormous liability here. I think anybody who got hurt in a driveway accident as a result of tripping over the broken-up pavement or had got injuries from retaining walls, they would have a perfect case again the City.
Oh, I think the Law Department is dead wrong on that. The City has the responsibility to guarantee the safety and the health of people. Where there are imminently dangerous circumstances -- and many of these driveways have already been officially declared dangerous -- the City is negligent in not proceeding to correct the condition. The City has a method of correcting conditions. We do it all the time with the demolishing of houses, we do that all the time. I don't see anything different here. The City knows 269 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 of dangerous situations that exist in the City and does nothing about 'em? The City has -- and I don't think we ought to face that kind of responsibility.
Well, again, that's a decision of how we deal with these driveways that really should be left up to the elected officials of this city. And if the elected officials of this city say to us, Go find the driveways, go find the walls, serve the notices on the people and somehow get it done, we'll do it, but that's not what we were told before. We were told that no, it's too expensive, let the people have a choice, let the people say whether they want to have it done or not, let them decide whether it's safe.
Councilman, it's usually type of moment that you would normally call for the resignation of everyone in the Law Department. Do you want to take advantage of that opportunity right now? (Laughter.)
They find dangers everywhere, and I don't understand why they don't 270 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 find a danger here.
Mr. Lonie, hold on for one second. I need to recognize a group of my constituents from Haddington Lane. And I need to ask, do you want to put any information on the record? It was my mistake to call up Mr. Lonie at the time I did 'cause we had had some conversation over there -- don't go anywhere Mr. Lonie. Madam, do you want to tell us anything about your situation? (Witnesses come forward.)
Please identify yourself for the record and just tell us a little bit about your situation.
My name is Lucille Tendle (ph.), and I'm the block captain of the 5700 block of Haddington Lane. And the problem -- our problem is -- I know this about the driveways and retaining walls, but we had our driveway done about ten years ago, on the north side of Haddington Lane. On the south side of Haddington Lane, there's Stowe (ph.) 271 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 Street, and Stowe Street have a fence around their yards, but they come out in our driveway, which is a private driveway because we have to pay for that driveway. And the kids come up there and the parent allow them to come out, and it just destroy -- they destroy stuff and like that, and we don't want that. So this is our problem. We wonder what can be done about this.
Ma'am, what I'd like to suggest to you is, there's a very nice young man right behind the rail there, a very young-looking guy -- not as young as he looks, but he's young-looking nonetheless. He's John Gallagher, he's a special assistant to Police Commissioner Timoney. And I'd like you to mention in a private conversation all of the particulars of the problem that you're having back in that driveway area and see if there are any things that we can do with regard to the basketball playing and some of the other activity going on out there, okay? And we'd like to help you with that, 'cause you had your driveway repaired; is that 272 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 correct?
I don't have the exact figure. It was about ten years ago. It's not cement.
Oh, sure, I'm sure. None of those materials last forever, but I believe it's a little cheaper with the asphalt and you can repair it a lot quicker than -- as compared to the concrete. But he's right there, back behind you, and why don't you talk to him about those enforcement issues that you're having back in that area.
Thanks for coming up. Mr. Lonie, Councilman Clarke has a question. 273 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041
Thank you, Councilman. Mr. Lonie, as I look at that map that you have up, I don't see maybe but three or four dots in my 5th District, and I'm going to try and see if I can create some more dots in the 5th District. There's a development called "People's Village" east of Broad, around 13th, 10th, just above Temple University, just above Diamond Street. Actually, my State Senator lives there. And for a period of years, they have been having a problem not with driveways, but there are several parking lots that were built when the development was built there, I believe, years ago. And it 17 wasn't clear at the time as to who was responsible 18 for the maintenance of the driveways. You know, 19 people just kind of purchased the homes and had 20 their off-street parking and it wasn't explained 21 to them that this was not public property, what 22 would happen 10, 15 years ago down the line. 23 And around 10, 15 years ago, these 24 driveways started sinking, and they've sunk to the 25 point where you can no longer utilize them. And 274 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 as I'm listening to the discussion, it kind of seems relatively similar to the issues about the driveways and the retaining walls, although they're not public property, they were built for the public good, and that those individuals are members of the public and have off-street parking. And we can't get a resolution. We attempted to get the City to get involved on several occasions, and they basically said that that's private property. When we asked them to specify whose private property as it related to the individual homeowner, no one could ever come up with a resolution to that because the way it was configured, the parking lots weren't necessarily adjacent to any particular homeowner, so we could never really get a sense of who was responsible. In this particular issue, can you kind of give me a sense of how we may be able to resolve that? And I heard you talk earlier about some long-term strategies in terms of assessments to owners of real estate and all.
The first thing that would 275 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 have to be done would -- probably the district surveyor and regulator would have to look into who's responsible. I mean, it is their job to look at it and say who would be assessed for the driveway. And, so, if you could let me know specifically where they are, the surveyor and regulator -- is that south of Susquehannah?
Just south. Actually, Susquehannah is the northernmost border and Diamond Street is the southernmost.
So that would be the 3rd Survey District. The district regulator would give you a full report on exactly who would be assessed. We used to make something called "registered owners plans" when we'd get a request for a driveway. And what that would be would be the driveway in question, and it would be a minor plan that would basically show who would be responsible for what. And, again, now if this was something that was taken by the Housing Authority, then it's still their responsibility.
No, no, it's a private home ownership development, actually, not 276 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 the Housing Authority.
This was a development that was built years ago, they sold 7 the homes to the individuals, but there are, like, 8 I think, 7 or 8 parking lots throughout the 9 development complex, but no one was given specific 10 information in terms of who owned the parking 11 lot. 12
I understand. I worked on 13 a similar development just off of Roosevelt 14 Boulevard, around St. Luke's Street, that has a 15 very similar type of thing. And I remember 16 specifically that that ground was designated by 17 parking to the individual -- to the -- I guess it 18 was the homeowners association or whatever. 19 I think we need to talk about that, 20 though. Why don't you let me know, and I'll stop 21 over and get the outline of exactly what it is, 22 and we'll look into all of those issues. 23
Thank you, 277 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 Councilman. Mr. Lonie, what I want to ask at this point -- and I need to ask the Chairman's indulgence. We're about to wrap this up, but there are obviously still some questions that need to be answered, things like standards. You heard from one of my constituents asking about standards for repair and how to ensure that the contractors adhere to the standards, whatever they may be, whether it's two inches of asphalt on top of concrete or take out the first two inches and create a base and all of those kinds of issues. What I would like to ask you to do and what I will be asking my colleagues who are members of the committee, through the Chairman, is if the Committee on Streets and Services would actually consider adopting a motion requesting that a study group be put together of the Streets Department, the Law Department, probably the City Planning Commission, the Finance Department, and possible OHCD, or any other agencies that are appropriate in dealing with this particular issue, and come back to this particular committee for then Council's consideration a program to deal 278 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 with these types of problems, lay out what all of the legal issues are, and then basically how we respond to those legal issues, the funding opportunities that may be available, or any creative funding sources that can be developed among study group members, and then lay out potential a timetable for responding to driveway work as well as retaining wall work, and show us over what period of time it would take to get significant completion of what you have laid out. For the tremendous work that the Streets Department has done on this, I'd like to thank you and commend you for that. And, Mr. Chairman, I know that it's been rather long, but I would ask that that type of motion be made at the appropriate time, to have the Streets Department then in a position and the Commissioner and Mr. Lonie to have a directive, if you will, from this committee to take certain action and to study certain things in order to broken back maybe in about three months or so the kind of information that we're talking about, but that their work is geared toward trying to solve a problem, not just to reiterate what the problems 279 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 are and what the challenges are and why we can't do something, but that how we can do something, having taken the appropriate amount of time to study this particular issue.
I would think that we probably have some foundation to begin to do these things. As I was suggesting earlier, I know sometimes when there's street reconstruction that goes on and there are lateral conditions that may require a homeowner who does not have the wherewithal to pay for those laterals, there's accommodation that are made for payout, so that's just one component of this entire study, I think. So we do have some creative ways of doing things already in place, so it shouldn't take, I don't think, that much time. Do you think three months, Mr. Lonie, would be --
I'll be here all summer. We could meet in August, I don't mind.
I have telecommunications. I met with them a couple years ago all summer long, but whatever it takes. Thank you. 280 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 We'll make that recommendation at the appropriate time, Councilman.
And I think this study is an excellent idea, if it's done quickly. And please understand, in my judgment, it is not very much a money matter; it is much more the fact that there is no way practical way that anybody has found to get a group of homeowners, or any other group of people, to decide to spend money. That's where government comes in. There is a perfect technique because we're trying to deal with public safety. We have the power as a city to condemn the property and then to require everybody to make an appropriate payment. Now, there will be cases where payment is not possible. Or where maybe partial payment is possible, but there aren't areas where the community is prepared to pay. Some of these speakers that were here were involved in trying to get the community together. In the past, the City discouraged them, the City did nothing to make it possible for contractors to carry out the work because the contractors were not money-collectors. 281 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041
And I think you have enough talent to work out methods first to maybe put a program into effect wherever it can be done, without large expenditures of money, you know, for those homeowners, but the City there would have to provide a contractor with the assurance that he's going to get paid. I think there can be some pretty creative ideas on doing that. So we're not necessarily talking about the $78 million that you talked about. It may be a very small sum. It may be even that for those homeowners who cannot afford to pay, maybe we can work out a method like a little neighborhood TIF so that taxes that people pay in the community go toward the payment, you know, of fixing the driveways. You know, we can use creativity. What I'm suggesting is, you ought to be able to come forth with a very workable program that offers assistance to people in the neighborhoods. It's the neighborhoods mostly that need this that are currently very stable, viable neighborhoods. That are being threatened with blight. Let's not wait until blight comes before 282 6/12/00 STREETS, SERVICES - RES. 000041 we help the neighbors.
Thank you. Mr. Chairman, could I ask one thing? Mr. Chairman, one question. As part of that study group, I really would feel comfortable, and I think it's very important that representatives -- not necessarily the Councilpeople themselves, but maybe staff from some of the Councilmatic offices could be on that study. I think that would help my efforts out a great deal.
Any other questions for this witness from the committee? (No questions.)