COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC HEARING COMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - - - Room 696, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Tuesday, November 19, 2002 10:15 a.m. - - - RESOLUTION 020625 - Resolution authorizing the City Council Committee on Licenses and Inspections to conduct hearings on the feasibility in the construction of new multi-family dwellings according to the principles of VisitAbility. - - - PRESENT: COUNCILMAN RICHARD MARIANO, Chair COUNCILWOMAN JANNIE BLACKWELL COUNCILMAN DARRELL CLARKE COUNCILMAN FRANK DICICCO COUNCILWOMAN JOAN KRAJEWSKI COUNCILWOMAN BLONDELL REYNOLDS BROWN COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO - - - V A R A L L O Incorporated Litigation Support Services Eleven Penn Center 1835 Market Street, Suite 600 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 (215) 561-2220 I N D E X RESOLUTION 020625 PAGE DAINETTE MINTZ, OHCD ........................ ROGER MARGULIES, Assistant Deputy Mayor ..... 9 ERIC VONSCHMITTERLING, Liberty Resources .... 22 5 NANCY SALANDRA, Disabled in Action .......... 27 THOMAS EARLE, Disabilities Law Project ...... 42 3 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625
This is the public hearing of the Committee on License and Inspections. Bill No. 020634 is being held at the request of Councilman Clarke. Mr. Allen, the Clerk, will read the title of Resolution 020625.
Resolution 020625, a Resolution authorizing the City Council Committee on Licenses and Inspections to conduct hearings on the feasibility in the construction of new multi-family dwellings according to the principles of VisitAbility.
We do have a quorum. I want to note that Councilman Mariano, that's myself, Councilman Clarke, Councilwoman Krajewski, Councilman Nutter, Councilman Rizzo, Councilwoman Blackwell, and I think Councilwoman Blondell Reynolds Brown is in the hallway working her way up. Councilwoman Blackwell would like to make a statement.
Good morning. Let me thank the Chair, Members of the Committee, and all who are here for this public hearing. 4 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 According to recent statistics published in the Year 28 Consolidated Plan, there are approximately 264,000 disabled people in the City; and of those, an estimated housing need of 65,300 people. We all recognize there's a need to address the significant gap in our housing supply and we want to do this in a way that certainly supports VisitAbility guidelines and certainly supports the need for housing production and continues to inspire developers to invest and to build in our City. Our goal here, in my opinion, today is to identify a balanced approach that incorporates VisitAbility principles and the creation of new and renovated affordable housing while still enabling housing developers to continue their investment in our City in a practical and cost-efficient manner. In the end, we hope that this process will have educated all of us on the needs of our diverse population, allowing developers to think of ways to tap untouched homeownership markets through meeting social demands and certainly protecting and supporting all who live and work and visit our City so that everybody feels they have a right and an 5 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 opportunity to have decent, safe, affordable housing. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
We have received testimony from the Housing Consortium for Disabled Individuals which will be entered into the public record. The Chair recognizes Dainette Mintz of OHCD and Wendy Elliot Vandivier of the Mayor's Commission of People with Disabilities for their testimony.
Good morning. My name is Dainette Mintz, Director of Special Needs Housing for the Office of Housing and Community Development. OHCD welcomes the opportunity to testify regarding the feasibility of VisitAbility in the new construction of multi-family dwellings. OCHD's affordable housing program activities are administered in compliance with the Federal Fair Housing Act and Section 504 program. In summary, these program require nondiscrimination in the sale, rental, and financing of residential dwellings and that a minimum of 5 percent of the total dwelling units in a project or at least one 6 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 unit, whichever is greater, shall be made accessible for persons with mobility disabilities. In addition, 2 percent of the units in the project but not less than one unit must be accessible for persons with hearing or visual disabilities. The estimated population of persons with disabilities in the City of Philadelphia is 264,000. The estimated affordable housing need is 65,300. The concept of VisitAbility recognizes for many seniors and individuals with disabilities, structural barriers such as stepped entrances and narrow door and entryways can severely limit or even prevent socialization and visiting the homes of friends, family, relatives and neighbors. VisitAbility is a design criterion that would allow individuals with disabilities basic access to residential buildings. There are three basic elements of VisitAbility, a zero-step entry, doors as wide and possible and an accessible bathroom on the first floor. These standards are broader than those presently required under the ADA or the National Rehabilitation Act of 1973, Section 504. Notably, however, they can potentially make housing more attractive for all of Philadelphia's residents 7 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 because the crisis related to accidents, aging, or illness that all of us face can be minimized or avoided completely. New construction cost issues related to VisitAbility is often related to the zero-step entrance and an accessible first floor bathroom. In new construction, the exterior solutions to a zero-step entrance involve simply a sidewalk sloping gently upward to replace a step, a garage floor poured level to one entrance or a short ramp replacing steps at the entrance most feasible for access. Design issues related to VisitAbility are the challenge of addressing the perception that people don't like the look of access, that access is unaesthetic and unattractive. While it can be argued whether this perception and/or belief may or may not be true, it is also recognized that people with no mobility impairments are becoming more and more accustomed to the look and usefulness of universal access as they roll their bicycles down curb cuts, choose to walk up the ramp rather than the steps to a movie theater, and take for granted the access features in new restaurants, schools, 8 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 offices, churches, et cetera. Often when picturing unattractive exterior access, people are picturing the traditional long and awkward ramps that often must be added to existing houses that were built without an accessible entrance. If focussed solely on new construction, innovations in form and design can greatly improve the aesthetic of access and allow it to blend into the surroundings with ease. It is important not to minimize the challenges of instituting VisitAbility principles. Costs of designing and installing a bathroom or powder room on the first floor can increase even new construction costs significantly. This can place a heavy burden on a developer who may be looking to develop housing for low and moderate-income individuals and may be working within a tight budget. Further, the simple space requirements needed under the VisitAbility principles especially with regard to turning space and required maneuvering space can create a serious challenge to the design and layout of a new home.
However, these challenges should be incorporated into a larger investigation of the principles of VisitAbility. In conclusion, the Administration is 9 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 prepared to participate with City Council in the creation of a task force or commission on VisitAbility to ascertain and learn about the specific implementation issues related to VisitAbility to ascertain and learn about the specific implementation issues related to VisitAbility and our City. Thank you for the opportunity to appear and testify on this measure. I would be glad to answer any questions you may have.
Any questions for this witness from the Committee? (No response.)
Seeing none, sir, state your name into the microphone and spell it for the stenographer.
Good morning. My name is Roger Margulies, M-A-R-G-U-L-I-E-S. And I'm Assistant Deputy Mayor for the Mayor's Commission on People with Disabilities.
I want to thank City Council Committee on Licensing and Inspections for 10 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 an opportunity to express my views on Resolution 3 020625. On behalf of the 264,000 citizens with disabilities in Philadelphia, I want to thank the sponsors of this VisitAbility resolution for their foresight and insight. Passage of a bill to support VisitAbility is a major first step. I want to remind the Committee that VisitAbility is not total accessibility. For citizens with disabilities, that is our ultimate goal. Let me take a moment to explain the difference between accessibility VisitAbility. Accessibility is defined in the Fair Housing Act, multi-family housing building with four or more units built and occupied after March 13, 1991, must be designed with accessibility features in all units in buildings with elevators and ground floor units only in non-elevator buildings, including specifications regarding width of doorways, height of cabinets, light switches, and so forth. Following are the major features: Exterior entrance of minimum 32-inch clear space, minimum clear openings in interior doorways of at least 32 inches, path/corridor minimum 36-inch width, turning radius of 5 foot within kitchen and bathrooms, bathroom 11 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 fixtures with grab bars around the tub or shower. In contrast, VisitAbility only means having the following: One entrance with zero steps, a 32-inch clear passage through all interior doors including bathrooms, at least one usable bathroom on the main floor. A visitable home is not accessible throughout the entire dwelling and does not include accessibility of the kitchen, other bathrooms, or the bedrooms on the second floor. Why passage of this resolution is a major first step. The housing stock in Philadelphia is almost totally inaccessible for citizens with all kinds of disabilities. Steps, second floor bathrooms, and narrow doorways are often insurmountable barriers hinder mobility in and out and within homes. VisitAbility will allow citizens with disabilities access to their neighbor's home in and a fuller participation in the communities in which they live. It promotes mainstreaming and inclusion to a population that has too long been excluded due to physical and attitudinal barriers. VisitAbility can lead to a better quality of life for citizens with disabilities and everyone else. Persons with disabilities are taxpayers and 12 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 full-fledged citizens. As a majority of the population ages, the accessibility features that VisitAbility offers can benefit everyone. Curb cuts are our prime example. Although initially installed to make communities more accessible for those with mobility impairments, they are widely used by everybody, including mothers with baby carriages and delivery people. In conclusion, I believe that the opposition to VisitAbility has more to do with changing the status quo. VisitAbility is an idea whose time has come. Changing door widths, removing steps, and having a usable first floor bathroom seem like good common sense. These alterations can make positive changes in people's lives. I urge support for Resolution 020625.
Thank you. Any questions from the Committee for this witness? (No response.)
Seeing none, anyone here from the Eastern Paralyzed Veterans Association? 13 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 Dainette, Darrell has a question for you. I'm sorry.
Good morning. Can you talk to me -- are you familiar with the recent Housing Authority agreement with respect to disability housing?
I thought you may have had some. I know there was a lawsuit, and as a result of that the Housing Authority was entered into an agreement that they were required to build a substantial amount of the new units that they are building to be accessible.
I am aware that there is an agreement, but I don't know any of the details.
Can you give us 14 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 any idea on what the estimate would be on an overall project cost to enact this resolution per VisitAbility standards?
We do not have any specific cost. Much of the work that has been done basically indicates that the cost could be limited, certainly for the City of Philadelphia. The concern we have is that we don't have specifics locally. One of the things that we were hoping would be the outcome of this hearing would be the opportunity to really do some analysis locally to look at what the impact would be on new construction in the future.
Thank you. That's our goal, too. We realize that we have some old antiquated apartments where people don't have access on first floor to bathrooms or powder rooms or handicap ramps, et cetera. But we also understand that if we don't handle it properly, we close down because some owners are unable to or unwilling to invest and then people have no place to go, and we don't exacerbate the situation.
Our understanding is that it may be more feasible in 15 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 multi-family dwellings to certainly adhere or make sure VisitAbility standards are adhered to but that it may be more difficult in smaller units.
That's correct. And certainly it is easier if we're looking solely at new construction.
Especially for new units, new multi-family dwellings being erected.
Eastern Pennsylvania Paralyzed Veterans. State your name and spell it for the stenographer. MS SCHWANGER: My name is Laura Schwanger, my S-C-H-W-A-N-G-E-R, and I have Jennifer DePaul, EPVA Senior Regional Advocate. DePaul, D-E capital P-A-U-L. My name is Laura Schwanger and I'm speaking on behalf of the Eastern Paralyzed Veterans Association, a non-profit private organization dedicated to enhancing lives of veterans with spinal cord injury or disease by assuring quality 16 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 healthcare, promoting research, and advocating for civil rights and independence. Thank you for the opportunity to present comments on the proposal to incorporate the principles of VisitAbility into the construction of new single family homes and multi-family dwellings built with financial assistance from the City of Philadelphia. EPVA supports the concept of VisitAbility because we believe that homes built with visitable features will help our members and all people with disabilities lead more independent and productive lives. For more than 50 years, EPVA has been an effective advocate for all persons with disabilities throughout the Delaware Valley. Over the years, EPVA has played a significant role in ensuring that local governments meet the mandated requirements for the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990. Here in Philadelphia, EPVA has been active in both the Mayor's Commission on People with Disabilities and the SEPTA Advisory Committee for accessible transportation. We have offered technical assistance to City Council in the past when issues were raised that affect our membership. Today, we 17 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 are here to discuss another issue that directly impacts our members: Accessible housing. EPVA would like to offer following remarks: Many people with disabilities are unable to visit families and friends because their homes are inaccessible. While EPVA recognizes that certain existing residential homes will always be inaccessible, homes that are built today can often at little cost, incorporate features that will allow someone with a disability to visit an individual that resides in a new home. VisitAbility is a new and evolving concept that policymakers throughout the nation are considering. In EPVA's view, VisitAbility is just a simple common sense approach to incorporating some physical accessibility features into the new construction of single-family homes built with public financial assistance. The VisitAbility principles that EPVA supports are as follows: Providing at least one accessible entrance, providing accessible interior doorways to the entry level floor, and providing an accessible route throughout the entry level floor which includes access to a convenient facility on the accessible level. Additionally, EPVA supports 18 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 providing reinforcements blocking in the walls of the entry level rest room at the time of construction. Housing advocates work on a daily basis to help people with disabilities locate accessible affordable housing. This is not an easy task. However, enabling someone with a disability to gain entry into a home, navigate through the first floor and enter the bathroom are small design elements that can simply be addressed prior to construction. This is the goal of VisitAbility. These design features afford homeowners, whether disabled or able bodied, the ability to entertain, socialize, and interact with all members of the community. These are vital parts of belonging to a neighborhood, particularly in a City of Philadelphia which, as we know, is a city of neighborhoods. The numbers are large when one considers all the children, middle-aged and elderly people who use wheelchairs, walkers, crutches, canes or are mobility impaired such as having heart conditions or balance problems.
Also heavily impacted are the family members of these persons because one individual's lack of access limits the housing options and visiting 19 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 opportunities of the whole family. These individuals need access to their own homes and they also have a need for other homes to be visitable. Otherwise, they are limited with contact with friends and extended family members. Having just recently purchased a new home, I would like to point out that a house is occupied not only by the original persons who buy it, but also by the series of future persons who buy, rent, or visit that home for many decades. As a wheelchair user, I have accessibility improvements to my home that were necessary for me to reside there. However, those items that I have improved, such as widening doorways, building a ramp, are items that a new construction can be avoided with a little foresight and preparation. In new construction, total added costs to incorporate visitable features is far less than the cost encountered once a home is built. While the architectural features covered by VisitAbility are inexpensive during the building process, the organization concrete change reports that removing barriers after they are constructed can be extremely expensive. Widening one interior 20 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 door can easily cost $1500, and adding a ramp to an existing home can be quite costly. It was much more $1500. EPVA supports the concept of VisitAbility that has recently been brought up in Philadelphia. Numerous other cities such as Atlanta, Georgia; Austin, Texas; Urbana, Illinois, Pima County, Arizona; and Naperville, Illinois have passed ordinances that address this issue. Additionally, Texas, Georgia, Florida, and Vermont have passed similar pieces of legislation that have allowed numerous homes to be designed and built as visitable. Clearly, additional cities and states must introduce legislation in order to successfully affect the status quo. Once the changes are required, they will become routine for builders to carry out because of their simplicity and inexpensiveness. The access features will not be a detriment to any resident or visitor. In fact, they will be a great help to many. In closing, EPVA would like to stress that we have a history of supporting legislation that enables individuals with disabilities to become active participants in society. Since the passage 21 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 of the ADA 12 years ago people with disabilities have proven that with slight accommodations, equality can be readily achieved and can also benefit all individuals at the same time. VisitAbility is a concept that true reply afford improved access to all people, not just those with disabilities. EPVA would like to offer our support as the Committee on Licenses and Inspections and the entire City Council further examines this issue. Our advocacy, architecture and building codes and standards programs are all available to help in any way necessary to make this concept become a reality in Philadelphia. Thank you for this opportunity to present the views and comments of the Eastern Paralyzed Veterans Association.
Any questions for these two witnesses from the panel? (No response.)
Seeing none, Nancy Salandra and Eric VonSchmitterling. 22 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 Councilwoman Blackwell wants to know if you two would want to serve on the task force if and when there is one.
If anyone else does, let us know before this is over.
My name is Eric VonSchmitterling and I am here as Chairman of the Board of Liberty Resources which is Philadelphia's Center for Independent Living. And I just want to say when a creator or an innovator or engineer or someone like that comes up with a design or an idea on a product, any product, the more people that could use that product makes it a better design. That's good business sense. And VisitAbility is kind of offered in that same light. It allows new housing to be used by as many people as possible. Right now, for instance, I've been coming to City Council for way over a year and I've seen a lot of you, talked to many of you, had meetings, et cetera, and, say, I were to become one of your friends, you know, I'm a nice guy. And if you wanted to invite me into your home for a cup coffee or a little extra libation or whatever, it can't happen because 23 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 chances are your house is not accessible. And we can't make all housing totally accessibility. I mean, my little fantasy, maybe, yeah, it would be great, but it's not feasible. It would be a lot to demand of homeowners just to accommodate me, somebody they don't even know. So what VisitAbility does, it takes common sense points, things that are of very little cost and, you know, when an architect draws up a design for a house, a lot of cost is eliminated. So when you plan ahead, a ramp becomes a very easy item. In fact, there's been insurance studies that show that like places of business that have ramps or accessibility features, these are lower in terms of liability. And many insurance companies offer lower premiums to companies that incorporate elements of universal design which would be more in terms of total access. But ramps are better. They're harder to fall on. They're safer for kids, for older people. Say, you're out skiing somewhere and you break your leg, you know, they're much better. People do prefer them. So VisitAbility means one zero-step entrance, in other words, a flat entrance. And 24 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 ideally it should be the main one. But that always is not possible, so it can be the side or the back or even through the garage. 36-inch wide inch doorways and a bathroom on the first floor. And if a full bath is not possible, then certainly a sink and a toilet like as in a powder room. And by doing this change, what would this promote? It promotes what we call aging in place. I mean, how many times have we all heard stories or maybe even experienced, your grandmother lives at home and suddenly she falls and maybe breaks a hip. And she has to go to a nursing home because there's no other solution because she can't go up the stairs anymore to get to her bathroom. I mean, families have been torn apart by similar stories of not that exact one. So a visitable home would allow an older person -- and as us baby boomers get older, we do have to think about this. I mean, our population is aging. And there's going more people that will not be able do steps or thresholds on steps and that type of thing. It's safer for kids, as I said. Whenever you move furniture into your house, a ramp and wider doorways and halls are a Godsend. I mean, how many people in 25 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 this room have struggled to get a couch around a corner? And VisitAbility would go a long way to cut down problems like that. And kind of what this all incorporates is called a cultural change. Steps are status quo. We've always done it. I mean, back in the 1500s, whenever steps were invented, you know, they did it and they've been doing it ever since. To get people to change is hard. A good analogy, if you will, would be the curb cuts. Back in 1990 right after the Americans with Disabilities Act was passed, people and people in city government and especially our mayor at the time was dead set against curb cuts. We had meetings with him. We wrote letters. We tried and tried to say that these are a good thing.
No, they're too expensive. We had to sue the mayor in court twice. We had many, many protests and there was a lot of anger generated at those -- the mayor went on national television, said he would go to jail before he would allow a curb cut to be built. And in fact, we went to jail. But now, 13, 14 years later, there's curb cuts all over the place. And who does use those curb cuts? Not only me. I have been cut off trying to use it. But 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 it's everybody. Older people, young people, skateboarders, mom's with their kids in strollers, businessmen with their luggage carting computers, UPS guys, I mean, you name it, and that person has probably at one point or another used a curb cut. And we used VisitAbility as the same. Say, we enact this ordinance, which both personally and professionally I sincerely hope we do. Twenty years from now, 30 years from now, people won't think of it, like, oh, here's the ramp and here's this and here's that, because it will be so natural and people will find good reasons. Oh, I'm glad this is the way it is. If somebody were to say, you know, "Do you remember years ago they designed 16 houses that had steps on every entrance? "Oh, My 17 God, how did we live like that? Kind of like before 18 cell phones and all this other modern innovations. 19 So as you deliberate and consider the 20 feasibility of doing this, think of the cost of putting someone in a nursing home. I mean, that's about $50,000, $100,000 -- a lot of it depends on which nursing home and the private insurance involved. But most people who enter nursing homes end up on Medicaid which means the government 27 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 ultimately pays for all that. And so when you look at costs of anything, you have to do the comparison. It's not just a dollar figure. It's what you're saving and what you're getting. Kind of like what I call the investment strategy. So Please consider all this. This is not just like the right thing to do; it certainly is that. But back when they struck down Jim Crow in the south, there was a lot of business owners that had built like separate waiting rooms to accommodate the white customers and the black customers. And they complained. " But again, it's been, what, over 40 years since that's happened and all of those business owners benefited by doing just that, by spending that cost, making their waiting rooms bigger, combining two into one, whatever it was, and they got better business. Society benefits from integration. Culturally, sociologically, as well as financially. And that's what VisitAbility is.
My name is Nancy Slandra. 28 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 I'm representing Disabled in Action, a grass roots advocacy organization. And just to kind of piggyback on what Eric said, you already understand the concept of VisitAbility. In the 2000 Census, there are 354,409 disabled people living in the City of Philadelphia now and 151,250 have physical disabilities. What we're trying to do in the City of Philadelphia, again, is a cultural change. And we've done different ones over the years. Unfortunately, the City went into it kicking and screaming. We hope that doesn't happen this time. At the same time we're doing our ordinance, Pittsburgh is also their VisitAbility ordinance, and we would like beat Pittsburgh. We don't want them to get ahead of us. What we've talked about as far as a cultural change is that people just don't understand, well, you have to have steps. Like it's just part of the way that life has been. When you don't have steps, you don't fall, you don't trip. What we're talking about is the baby boomers. We're going to be the largest elderly population ever to age in place. We don't want somebody here breaking their hip and you can't move back into your home. 29 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 This occurs every day to people that become injured. They go to Magee and Moss Hospital and then cannot go back home because their house is not accessible. So we're not asking for accessibility. We're asking for the opportunity for people that are not disabled to live in a place so that as they age they can continue to move back into their home, not end warehoused in a nursing home. We understand that this is just so different for people to grasp this concept and it just seems so strange to them. The same way curb cuts were strange, the same way low floor buses which we just got in the last year were strange to the public. They just couldn't understand, well, if there isn't steps, what's going to happen? It is a different concept but it's one that will help everybody. It's not just for the disabled population, it is for everybody so that you don't one day have to leave your home because something happened to you and now you can't get back in. Thank you very much for the opportunity to speak.
Thanks, Nancy. Any questions for these witnesses? 30 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 Councilman Clarke.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Good morning. I want to ask a couple questions -- I don't know if you can answer them but I'm just going to throw them out there. I'm a kind of Councilman that always believes in trying to come up with solutions to issues, as I'm sure all of my colleagues are. I'm assuming that at some point people looked at the possibility of having portable ramps for accessibility for disabled individuals on stairways, particularly in the front stairways because they're traditionally not as high as the internal stairways. Do we have something like that.
I've seen it one time. And there's an apartment building down there on walnut and it's an interesting concept. The only thing is, when the weather comes, metal is just ungodly slippery. So I think the traction for somebody in a chair or somebody walking up, it's going to be a huge problem.
I'd also like to answer that on a personal note because I have a 31 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 doctor who's in an office kind of like on Ninth Street which some of those buildings are kind of older, and he has a portable ramp. Again, you know me. I go to the office. There's no door bell, and I have to ask someone to go inside there -- like say you were passing by, you're on your way to an important meeting. "Excuse me, sir, can you go in and let the secretaries know that I'm here?" "Oh, I don't have time for that." Well, after about five or six people, I finally get some kind-hearted soul that will do that. Because I'm deaf, I can't call ahead and say, "I'm coming, I'll be there in an about 10 minutes." So, I mean, all of us are different. A portable ramp could work for maybe some, but then like Ms. Salandra just said, you know, the traction thing. A lot of us -- I mean, it's not so easy to get new tires when you need it. I mean, take a look at my tires when I come around; they're bald. It can create a real dangerous situation. So again, this VisitAbility ordinance 23 only addresses new construction. So sometimes when you retrofit, that's different because you have to deal with what you got and the money you have, et 32 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 cetera, so you look -- I mean, nobody better than us, I think, looks for like low-cost solutions because that's the story of our life. Our people live in poverty.
The reason I asked that question -- and hopefully Mr. King who is very well versed in construction, if we can look at the possibility of construction that would allow or accommodate a portable ramping system --
That's not the best answer. I mean, if you build the entrance level, you don't need a portable ramp. And what if, say, I'm coming to visit you at your home. Say, you suddenly pull your back out. You can't lift up that portable ramp. And some chairs are heavier than others because people come in different sizes and shapes. You know, some are skinny; some are not so skinny. And a portable ramp that might that might accommodate someone that's real little might not accommodate someone who's big like me or bigger, you know. So with a level entrance, none of that -- you know, it don't matter.
I understand. I understand the best case scenario that would be to 33 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 have a level entrance. And I'm assuming that somewhere down the line there are going to be some reports that talk about the cost of construction, the difficulty --
But the cost to make something that isn't there is always cheaper than the cost to make something. Steps are more expensive than ramps.
I understand. I'm just trying to looking at other options because I believe that during the debate you're going to have to be able to throw different options out on the table, not understanding the issue, obviously, as well as you do. I'm always thinking about ways to come up with solutions for issues.
I know some people will say, "Oh, it's going to be tremendously expensive," because they always say that. They said that about the curb cuts. They said that about lifts on buses. I mean, you name any of the issues in our fight, and they always say it's more expensive to do it the way you want. And in reality, just about everything we've suggested -- and this is not just us. I mean, these are other 34 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 groups across the country. You know, I'm not that smart. But it's been proven time and again it's cheaper to keep people at home than in an institution. The accessible buses really are no 6 more expensive than any other bus. And the low floor buses are far cheaper than the other kind. Curb cuts, you know -- I mean, I forget the original price.
Just to say, Councilman Clarke, that if it's new construction, a level entrance isn't going to cost you anything. But a portable ramp is.
Right. But the understanding to a small degree, having been involved in a lot of new construction in my district fortunately, it seems for some reason -- I think this is probably a Philadelphia phenomenon, that most people want porches. Whenever we talk about developing new houses, the preference is to have a porch. We're a porch kind of town.
And you can still absolutely of have that. I mean, we could talk about Diamond Street, some of the places there and absolutely, there happens to be an two-inch step, 35 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 but there's no reason for that. So you could keep the porch and get rid of the two-inch step and they would have all been visitable from the front. They're visitable from the back so...
The issue -- and again, having a little knowledge about construction is that when we talk for sale housing, the design takes on a new life as opposed to -- it's unfortunate, but the reality is as opposed to rental development, people traditionally require additional things as a result the design, the facade treatment, you know, the amenities associated with different types of building when it's for sale housing as opposed rental development. Rental development, there's just not as much input because there is no 17 client early on in the process. It's simply a building, a developer and funder, which is normally the government, and they build the houses and the people will come. If it's for sale housing, you have to have a strong marketing strategy and you kind of have a ready-built client. And in the City of Philadelphia, I'm just telling you this and you can get anyone from the Office of Housing that can attest to that, that the preference is to have a 36 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 porch for whatever reason. And I'm just trying to come up with some solutions.
Well, then the entrance can be in the back for the VisitAbility.
One other thing. Eric, this is somewhat unrelated to today's discussion, but in a meeting that I had with you all earlier a month or so ago, Eric, you had made som recommendations of some things that we can possibly do locally to improve the situation with disabled individuals. I just want to do it for the record since we're in a public forum. Can recall those couple of things that you had asked me to entertain.
Well, I don't have those notes with me. I mean, we did talk about VisitAbility because we don't know the status of this ordinance yet. We're hoping the hearing will favor it and recommend it and that it will pass on the Council floor. But we're always looking beyond that, you know, or what if it doesn't. We talked about increasing accessibility percentages because various entities, including the Philadelphia Housing Authority, but others as well, have been known not to be in compliance with the accessibility laws, for 37 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 example, Section 504 in the Fair Housing laws. And under 504 they talk about percent of all new 4 construction built with public money should be 5 5 percent accessible with people with physical disabilities and 2 percent accessible to those with sensory disabilities. And, you know, we've proved in court that they did not comply with that. And as a result, we have very, very little housing available for our people. That meeting for you, I mean, we chose your district because a lot of our people live in your district. Also, Councilman Mariano, same thing, we've had meetings with him on these very same things. And we talked about some other specifics, but I'd really have to have my notes in front of me. Adaptive Mod is another one. The current program receives only $2 million and the waiting list is five to seven years and that needs to be drastically increased, along with Basic Home Repair and such.
That's funded out of the Community Development Block Grant.
Well, that and however we can get it, you know. But that's the traditional source. 38 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625
Thank you. Would you be willing to serve on the task force that we'll be forming?
You know this isn't a bill yet. This is a resolution to work towards a bill. That's why the Councilwoman is talking about a task force. This will probably be recommended and then we will work on the task force work on the bill. That way it will save a lot of time and lot of argument in Council. We want to do this, but we want to do this right. On a personal not, a person that spent years in construction, they can change 20 everything. It's all architects, what they're being paid to design. Atlanta VisitAbility ordinance, looks like it's been around for 10 years.
They can do 39 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 porches. They can do back entrances in ramps too.
If you can think it, they can envision it and draw it and make it happen. We want to do this hearing and get task force gather as much information as we can. You're expert in this field. I have a disabled child that shares the steps in my house in Juliana Park. Very, very young. He can't be more than 4 years old. He has to come through the garage. His father can't have his car in the garage. He's 4 or 5 years old. If he wasn't his size, how could he get up the steps. We understand.
Even beyond some of the physical things, there's a whole psychological question. What message are we sending to our disabled kids? You can't visit your friends like after school. Or, say, the school, they're doing a play and the kids go to each other houses after school to rehearse and do whatever, or a Halloween party Friday night sleep out. All this stuff we did as kids, a very common part of our 40 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 cultural growing up, and disabled kids, you know, just are not allowed to be a part of that. Not because anybody said, "No, you can't do it," but those steps. I mean, years ago where another hearing at City Council about curb curbs. I compare curb cuts to the signs to the south. I mean, there's a lot of analogies between the civil rights movement and what we're trying to achieve today. And back then, I mean, when they were doing the Brown versus Department of Education suit, the NAACP commissioned a study that showed the psychological effect on the little white kids and on the little black kids. And separate but equal was a seriously screwed up thought. I mean, it was not true. And we learned that lesson well. I mean, we see our kids going to separate schools, can't visit buddies. Disabled coworkers can't come over and have an office pinochle party or whatever. And, you know, what price is that? I mean, I think one thing about our nation is that we have shown that you cannot throw anybody away. We need all of the cultures and diversity that has made our nation great and that includes people with disabilities, as includes all 41 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 the others. I mean, I am very grateful and indebted to the fight of people like within the NAACP and Dr. King and all of other great people involved in that struggle. And we use those examples as lessons that we are trying to achieve the same struggle and dream, if you will, because we want to live free too, like all Americans.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to underscore Mr. Chairman's remarks regarding the value of being very deliberative through organizing a task force. And the time is ripe, R-I-P-E, given the Mayor's Neighborhood Transformation Initiative and the prospect of vacant land and getting with, collaborating with developers on the front end of how they will ultimately use this land to include all of the issues you're raising by way of your resolution. So as you move to deliberate, remember that NTI and what that means and how expectations need to be put in the development that will accommodate the type of issues that you're raising 42 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 during this hearing. Thank you.
Thank you, Councilwoman. Any other questions? (No response.)
Seeing none, does anyone else want to testify on this? State your name and spell it for the record, sir.
Good morning. My name is Thomas Earle, it's E-A-R-L-E. Good morning, Council. I am a staff attorney with the Disabilities Law Project in Philadelphia which is largely funded by Pennsylvania Protection and Advocacy which is the Governor-appointed organization in this Commonwealth that advocates on behalf of children and adults with physical or mental disabilities. For the past 10 years as an attorney, I have worked on numerous cases involving the Americans with Disabilities Act, the Fair Housing Act, the Rehabilitation Act, and places of business in the City of Philadelphia and throughout the Commonwealth. And one reality that I have seen is 43 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 the cost and disadvantage of litigation versus compliant up front on the front end. And that is largely exhibited in cases involving new construction where the economic opportunity to cheaply design and build into new construction the accessibility that benefits so many different people, including people with disabilities, is either unintentionally overseen or deliberately overseen. And the economic opportunity to do it -- I know Council has raised a couple questions about cost. And cost is clearly a very important factor that must be deliberated that the task force must address. One thing is certain with cost, and that is that it's much cheaper to design and build it new than it is to go back and retrofit. In the early 1990s, I participated on the Mayor's Committee for People with Disabilities with the then Deputy Mayor Oliver Jordan. There was a task force set up then that addressed the housing crisis in Philadelphia for people with disabilities. Oliver Jordan passed away over the past year. He was a great man, and he realized the importance of housing for people with disabilities. And the then Mayor of the City of Philadelphia, unfortunately, 44 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 resisted progress towards access in the City of Philadelphia, which I think blew a lot of economic opportunities for the City. And not only was it resisted, but it was fought all the way to the Supreme Court. And all of that mental energy and legal resources that the City engaged in then in the early '90s, fighting the ADA and fighting the installation of curb cuts was a terrible waste of mental energy and money. I think what we have here today is the opportunity to pass a resolution that will give the City the opportunity to take affirmative steps forward in an integrated way, in a deliberative way to integrate people with disabilities into the housing opportunities in the City of Philadelphia. Mr. VonSchmitterling raised a very good point regarding the City's home modification plan which, as many of you know, is set up in the Philadelphia County to provide homeowners and tenants with funding to make their homes or apartments accessible that are not accessible. The waiting list for that funding is very long. It takes a couple years, if not three or four years to get on there and receive a small amount of money to 45 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 make a ramp or to make an accessible bathroom. If the City begins building and convincing builders to build housing that accessible, it's a huge step towards that progress that I think will benefit all City residents. The other issue I wanted to raise was, Councilman, I believe you raised a question about the use of portable ramps. Portable ramps is a great idea as an affordable solution when there is a barrier, an architecture barrier in an existing building. We are seeing the use of portable ramps as a very economic solution in the voter access case that is currently pending in Federal Court against the City of Philadelphia over the inaccessibility of polling places. And in that case, the use of portable ramps is going to be used to vastly increase the number of accessible polling places that have one or two small step barriers. But the point of this is that that's for existing polling places.
Again, the opportunity to seize, really, is to when designing and building new home construction in Philadelphia that these requirements be put into place. And as everybody has testified here today, the requirements are really very straightforward. 46 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 They're very simple. At least one accessible entrance, accessible doorways and a ground floor or first floor accessible bathroom. In closing, I just want to say that the Disabilities Law Project and Pennsylvania Protection and Advocacy and the many consumers that we represent throughout the Commonwealth and Philadelphia County strongly encourage City Council to immediately pass a resolution appointing a task force, and that many of the people who testified here are very qualified, very talented, have the insight that would serve Council well in serving on that task force to move forward with an ordinance 15 that will include or require VisitAbility as we now see it in the City of Atlanta and other cities throughout Texas and Illinois. It's time for Philadelphia to forge forward with this initiative. Thank you very much.
Thank you. Councilwoman Blackwell, you have a question for this witness?
Yes. Would you be willing to serve on the task force.
Yes. The Disabilities Law 47 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 Project would be more than willing to provide technical assistance.
Thanks. Any other witnesses? Anybody else want to testify? (No response.)
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Dainette, I wanted to ask you a question. With respect to your being involved with OH for a while and traditionally there are different issues, you know, in terms of funding for various programs that come about. When we had this unfortunate onset of HIV and AIDS, we got additional funding. I guess I shouldn't say additional funding, there was a funding category made available to support housing initiatives for those. When we go to HUD and we get support for these initiatives, 48 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 do they tend to give you the same baseline dollars and they just allow you to carve that existing piece of the pie, or do we get an incremental increase in our support from the Federal Government to support these different initiatives? As example, if we felt that we wanted to aggressively seek opportunities to deal with this VisitAbility issue and we went to HUD we said, "We really want to be able to build in all our new construction build these units to have the VisitAbility issues addressed but it will some increments in cost per unit," would they simply ask us to just redirect some of the current funding or do they traditionally give you a bump up in your total budget?
Unfortunately, they do not provide us any additional funding. There is not a set-aside for any particular housing activity that you'd want to target to persons with disabilities. So we traditionally have had to allocate funding out of our baseline funding. And that's true throughout all of the programs. There is no particular program that provides a separate pot of funding to provide any of the activities for the disabled community. 49 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625
There is a new program called the Access Grant that the State instituted last year. It's actually modeled on Philadelphia's Adaptive Modification Program, and we have applied to that program. This will be the second year and we've applied for $500,000 and received $300,000. So that is $300,000 in addition to the $2 million in block grant funding that we make available for the modification.
I just want on a personal -- Eric, and this is about you too. I've met with Nancy and Eric and Disabled in Action 50 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 before and I have to tell you, and I don't want to speak for the other councilpeople but I'm sure they'll agree with me. Being a person that's abled and moving around and do everything and has no one in his family that is disabled, we tend to take a lot of things for granted. And I know the first time I met with Eric and Nancy in a group, there were a lot of things that I should have known, and not being a bad person it's just that you don't think about the stuff Eric talked about, getting in a house. When he was saying that, Eric and I were going to get tatoos together and I'm thinking if we inked together can we get Eric in the first floor of Tatoo Eddie's at K & A. Yes, we can. (Laughter.)
But we couldn't do it -- but if you came to my house, it would be a problem. You would have to the go through the garage, move my son's drums. It's just not doable. And you don't think about that stuff. In all seriousness, that's stuff that we don't think about. So remind us constantly. You're not bothering us. At certain times everyone bothers people, but that's not a bother. Don't think because we don't know it 51 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 right away -- and I'm sure you know that because you've been dealing with politicians. You have five, I know Councilman Goode's very interested, Councilman Nutter was, and I'm sure the rest of Council is. This is stuff we don't think about all the time unless they deal with it every day. I see the young man next to me go to his bus. I hear the bus blow its horn every morning. I see his mother, I see the nurse come. I see the stuff getting dropped off every Friday. But before I lived in that house, I had nothing to relate to, having two children fully able that you don't think about. You might go your whole life and never get to that point. So please, let us know because this is something I think if we do it right and do it more cautiously and slowly so it doesn't bogged down when we get to the point -- because what will happen, it will come down to money at the end. So we have to prove that the people that design houses and build houses that at least in public housing on housing that's funded through government funds that we can do things like this and it makes sense because it probably does make sense in long run because when you talked about the baby boomers, I 52 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 know everyone's around the same age up here. We're going to be -- the Councilwoman just lost her mother and I know the Councilwoman took care of her mother for a long time at home carrying her mother up and down stairs, putting her to bed. That's stuff you don't think about until you do that. So, again, thank you. Eric, do you want to say something else?
I just wanted to respond to Councilman Clarke, your question. I didn't get all of it. But you were asking about if there's set asides through HUD, and Ms. Mintz answered correctly. But I would like to tell you that HUD is on national record for supporting the concept of VisitAbility. And perhaps -- I mean, a result of the task force, we can figure out a way to kind of pressure them or something to build financial incentives, shall we say. I mean, we've been meeting with people in Washington at HUD, including the various secretaries through the years right up to and including Mel Martinez. And we have talked about like in the CDBG process as people apply to receive those grants that there been like a series of bonus points or something for people that 53 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 build VisitAbility into their design projects or whatever. And some of that advocacy resulted in the access grants that Ms. Mintz was talking about. I mean, again, it wasn't just the Philadelphia group, we're talking a national level effort with people like from Atlanta, Georgia; Denver, Colorado; Austin, Texas; and many other places too. But we can see what we can do, and the fact they're on national record saying they support VisitAbility, they did like a presentation, you know, with fancy booklets and all that to a lot of project designers about VisitAbility, so they've talked about it a lot. It's about time to kind of put your money where your mouth is.
I agree. We may even want to investigate something like a federal tax credit for home purchasers who opt to have VisitAbility-types of housing. So there are a number of ways that I think we should investigate the possibilities of making this available because, as the chairman said, at some point it's going to come down to the cost associated with the development.
The tax credit 54 11/19/02 - LICENSES - RES. 020625 may already exist.
I think that this particular Administration seems to be very high on tax credits; unfortunately, not necessarily for those of us that need them the most, but maybe we can make a very strong lobby down in Washington and see if we can get HUD to agree to something like that. And we'll need your help on that. Thank you.
That will conclude this public hearing. Anyone who wants to be on the task force, contact Councilwoman Blackwell's office. There's nobody else that wants to testify, right? (No response.)
Thank you. Thank you for your help and all the information. We really appreciate it. (Council adjourned at 11:23 a.m.) - - - 55 C E R T I F I C A T I O N I HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing proceedings of the Council of the City of Philadelphia of November 18, 2002, were reported fully and accurately by me, and that this is a correct transcript of the same. RE: COMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS ___________________________ Lisa C. Bradley, RPR and Notary Public