Committee Hearing, February 24, 1998

1191 COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA RECESSED HEARING BEFORE THE COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Tuesday, February 24, 1998 - - - BILL NO. 980003 - Operating Budget for the Fiscal Year 1999 PRESENT: PRESIDENT JOHN F. STREET, Chairman COUNCILWOMAN AUGUSTA A. CLARK COUNCILMAN DAVID COHEN COUNCILWOMAN ANNA CIBOTTA VERNA COUNCILWOMAN DONNA REED MILLER COUNCILMAN MICHAEL A. NUTTER COUNCILWOMAN HAPPY FERNANDEZ COUNCILWOMAN MARIAN B. TASCO COUNCILMAN FRANK DICICCO COUNCILMAN RICHARD T. MARIANO COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO ANGEL L. ORTIZ - - - VINCENT VARALLO ASSOCIATES, INC. Registered Professional Reporters Eleven Penn Center, Suite 600 Philadelphia, PA 19103 (215) 561-2220 BILL NO. 980003 - OPERATING BUDGET FY 1999 1192 I N D E X DEPARTMENT OF STREETS: Commissioner Lawrence Moy------------------ 1194 Dept. Comm. Clarena Tolson----------------- 1326 DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC PROPERTY AND PUBLIC WORKS Commissioner Andres Perez------------------ 1343 Dept. Comm. Joseph James------------------- 1403 Dept. Comm. Denise Goren------------------- 1413 OFFICE OF FLEET MANAGEMENT Commissioner Riley Harrison---------------- 1431 WATER DEPARTMENT Commissioner Kumar Kishinchand------------- 1439 Dept. Comm. Michael Nadol------------------ 1445 Dept. Comm. Dick Roy----------------------- 1461 Dept. Comm. Denise Garrett----------------- 1485 1193 BILL NO. 980003 - OPERATING BUDGET FY '99 P R O C E E D I N G S

I'd like to have your attention, please. This is a recessed hearing of the Council Committee of the Whole. Today we will hold public hearings, and we will take testimony primarily on the City's operating budget, which is Bill No. 980003, the operating budget for the Fiscal Year 1999. We apologize for our late start. We had a little bit of an emergency. I have a couple of announcements to make. But I would appreciate it very much if all Councilmembers who are in their offices, waiting for these hearings to begin, if you'll please come to these chambers. We'd like very much to get the hearings started. So if you will, we would appreciate it very much if all Members will come to the Council chamber. (Councilmembers join Committee in Council chambers.)

The first department to be considered today is the Streets Department. So if we could have the Commissioner and those with him come forward, we would like to have you 1194 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. summarize your statement and be available for questions. ) COMMISSIONER MOY: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning, Mr. President and Members of City Council, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Lawrence M. Moy, the Commissioner of the Department of Streets, and I am pleased to be here this morning to present some summary testimony on behalf of the Streets Department's Fiscal Year 1999 operating budget. We are requesting a General Fund appropriation of $114,459,072, and an All Funds appropriation of $143,409,739. 7 million from Fiscal Year 1998 obligations primarily because of the reduction in disposal fees. I'd like to briefly highlight some of the goals that have been achieved in our areas in refuse collection, recycling, and street maintenance. 1195 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. Collections. In the area of refuse collection in FY '97, we collected more than 798,000 tons of refuse. And in FY '98, we estimate collecting more than 763,000 tons. In 1999, we project collecting 790,000. Through the acquisition of more efficient vehicles and improved crew productivity, we will accomplish our FY '99 goal with 47 fewer people, while maintaining an on-time collection rate of 95 percent. I'm proud to report that the results of a recent survey conducted by an independent polling firm indicated that 84 percent of the City's residents said the trash was collected on time either always or frequently. In the area of recycling expansion, recycling participation is continuing to expand in the City. For example, in FY '97, 43,863 tons of household refuse was diverted from the waste stream through our recycling program. And we estimate that by the end of FY '98, we will collect 47,238 tons of recyclables, and we project that 49,531 tons will be collected in '99. Recycling's in place in many government 1196 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. buildings, including the Municipal Services Building, the Criminal Justice Center, City Hall, branch libraries, the Police and Fire Administration buildings, and many health centers. In FY '99, we expect to continue to support the Community Partnership Program, which provides overall savings to the City. In the area of street repairs and street maintenance, I'm proud to report that results of our Highway Division's Re-engineering Piloting Plan have been very favorable. And as a result of this plan, in FY '97, we were able to resurface 108 miles of streets, an increase of 145 percent over FY '96. We project resurfacing to increase it to 156 miles per year in FY '98 and FY '99. Our work was monitored by outside consultants, who concluded that our work was both cost-competitive with the private sector and met industry standards in terms of quality. We've also increased the number of ditches restored and the crosswalks line-striped. Street lighting. Concerning street lighting, we are in Year 6 of an 11-year program 1197 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. to replace our obsolete street light fixtures. We expect to replace all of the City's entire 100,000 street lights system by the year 2002. This program is enabling us to see reductions in terms of repair and maintenance. And regarding alley lighting, we have replaced 16,000 lights and expect to complete this program by the end of FY '98. Traffic engineering. I'm glad to report that our OAD Traffic Light Replacement Program is on schedule. And by the end of FY '99, we project that 29,000 lights will be replaced. Combined with the replacement of over 60,000 more efficient yellow and green incandescent lights, we estimate savings of approximately $576,000 annually when the program is completed in FY '99.

In conclusion, the employees of the Department of Streets will continue to work diligently in the delivery of the services to citizens and neighborhoods and to improve the quality of like in our City. We, therefore, request your favorable consideration of this budget request, and I'm available to answer your questions at this time. 1198 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT.

Thank you very much. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Fernandez.

Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning, Mr. Moy. COMMISSIONER MOY: Good morning, Councilwoman.

It is great to see the decline -- or the increase to -- what would you call it, the increased on-time collection of waste and trash. I've certainly felt that in our neighborhood, so I think that's great to keep that on-time collection going up. COMMISSIONER MOY: Thank you.

And I also wanted to thank you for your role in Operation Crosswalk where the Streets Department has really been stepping up its marking of crosswalks, particularly what are called -- are they called the zebra -- COMMISSIONER MOY: Continental crosswalks?

Continental crosswalks. Really particularly on a rainy night, when you're driving, it really makes it so much 1199 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. easier to see major pedestrian crosswalks. And as you know, the numbers of deaths decreased from 60 last year down to -- actually, I think it was incorrect in the five-year plan. I think it's down to 41 for this year. But, again, I want to thank you for your work. And I think as we continue to work on problem spots in different neighborhoods, perhaps in cooperation with the Streets Department working with the police and with neighborhood groups, we could start to deal with some of the spots that are most dangerous for pedestrians. I wanted to take a look, however, at recycling. I know the Recycling Coordinator, Al Dezzi has left. And I was wondering if you could help us get a handle on where we are with recycling in the City. You give the numbers of tons collected, but I was wondering, what is the percentage of total waste that gets collected through the recycling piece versus the waste that has to go to either a landfill or the incinerator. COMMISSIONER MOY: Our diversion rate at the present time for curb recycling is 6.5 1200 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. percent, 6.54 percent.

Is that the residential? COMMISSIONER MOY: Yes.

And what about commercial? COMMISSIONER MOY: Commercial is another percent. 10

And what were 11 the original goals that were set by the State, and 12 then by the Department? 13 COMMISSIONER MOY: It was 25 percent 14 for the commercial. 15

To have been 16 achieved by. . . ? 17 COMMISSIONER MOY: By 1998. 18

By this year? 19 COMMISSIONER MOY: Yes.

So we're a bit behind. COMMISSIONER MOY: Yes, that's right, Councilwoman.

I wonder, what are your plans for probably redoubling, tripling 1201 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. our efforts to start to reach those goals? COMMISSIONER MOY: We have a series of things to review. Certainly the objective of getting back to once-a-week pickup would be very helpful. We are trying to find ways to make that economically feasible. It certainly was a loss to the -- and the confusion which resulted from going to alternate weeks had a significant negative effect on pickup. So we intend to move to replace the Recycling Coordinator. And when that's in place, we will be moving to see how we can get to increasing these numbers in participation.

Have you made a study of what once-a-week collection would cost and how we could start? I think that's what we do need to move toward -- I know I keep -- at my house, I have to keep it on the calendar to remember what Friday it is I should put stuff out. COMMISSIONER MOY: We've done some studies on this. And we are -- our problems are reconciling our operational costs in terms of making this pay. We also know that we will -- we are examining the educational investment that we 1202 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. ought to make. So we are reviewing each of the components to try and get to this kind of a goal. But, I mean it has to be very carefully done in terms of the operational aspects of it, how many vehicles we would have to have to make that work; how many crews we would, indeed, would have to have to make that kind thing of work.

Well, could that -- I'd really be interesting in seeing what that analysis says you would need. Like, if I'm correct, there's no additional money asked for in this budget? COMMISSIONER MOY: That's correct.

So if you wanted to start moving toward that, are you saying you would need to be doing it next year? Or what are your thoughts or plans? COMMISSIONER MOY: If we did something, I don't think we'd be able to engage in a full- scale program this year. I think we would be moving with pilot efforts to prove out what the costs would be to get to once a week. I don't think we can then say, 1203 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. Citywide, it will be once a week this coming year. I think that's -- one of the problems is trying to validate the actual cost of operating.

Well, if you could forward your analysis to date, your estimate of what it would cost in additional trucks and whatever you needed. But also could you also include in that what is the current price you're getting per ton for the various kinds of recycled materials? COMMISSIONER MOY: I'd by glad to do that.

'Cause I noticed in the -- I guess it was in the service goals, that back in '95, you collected 49,000 tons, which is more than what you did this year. My figures show 43,000 in FY '97, 47,000 in '98. But if you go back to '95, you collected more than what you're planning to collect next year. So it feels like we're not moving ahead at the kind of rate we should be. And if it's only 6 percent of the residential waste, it feels like we really have a long ways to go. 1204 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. COMMISSIONER MOY: And I agree with you. I think that some of this is market-driven, clearly, in terms of the commodities. And just as an example, the price of newspaper in 1995 was 45.82 for -- that we received. And our payout last year, in 1998, was -- for this year, for 1998, is $20.56. So the market has completely gone the other way in terms of paper, for example. And that's just one of the commodities. So you're right that --

But that shouldn't affect your collection, should it? COMMISSIONER MOY: It does in the sense of alternatives, of what people have, what they put out. We are just -- we are trying to move with additional -- trying to encourage additional participation. There probably is, let's see. . .

Well, Commissioner, I don't understand how the price that you can get for reselling the collected goods is higher. I would think there would be more people maybe trying to siphon off more valuable 1205 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. goods. I wouldn't think whether people put it out and whether you collect it depends on what the market value of the recycled value is. COMMISSIONER MOY: I think the commingle is where we get -- where we are actually losing it. The other additional point is with the changeover to plastics from glass, I think there's significantly less glass product in our mix now.

What do you mean? COMMISSIONER MOY: The packaging has shifted from glass to plastic in terms of bottling and other products. We are not picking up plastics, and people are shifting in terms of their purchases. They're purchasing plastics instead of glass. So it's just going to be a reduction, then, in the amount of commodity that we pick up. And that's happened in the last couple years.

But didn't you add -- you added a junk mailer or -- COMMISSIONER MOY: Mixed paper.

Mixed paper, 1206 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. which, at least in our house -- maybe we're on too many lists. COMMISSIONER MOY: Yes.

But I have more mixed-paper trash that I do anything else. COMMISSIONER MOY: Right.

But I'm not sure how many people even bother to save it because you're supposed to put it in a bag with handles. And if you don't go to the right grocery store and get bags with handles, it's hard to have something to put it in. You don't want it just flying all over. If I could put it in a plastic bag, it would be easy. But to find a paper bag with handles, I think we got one the first time you all did, but I haven't gotten it delivered to the house once. So you have to go a store that has that kind of paper bag. COMMISSIONER MOY: Yeah, we understand some of the problems in terms of education. And there's a whole series of things of what do to we get our people used to in terms of -- do we get them buckets, is that expected. 1207 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. People can just tie the paper. If they would do that, we will take that paper on that basis. It does not have to be in a paper bag with handles. But we understand the problem of educating -- reeducating folks in a lot of areas, not just the weeks but the habits that they're going to have.

Well, I would think you'd want to look at whether you wanted to get the go-ahead to do a full Citywide every-week collection and really see if your numbers, you know, could significantly jump. Because you could pay for education in one little neighborhood for some pilot, but I don't think that really gets through to the public in the same way as an overall -- I mean, it would be a very clear message: Put out your recycling, put out your trash the same day, all over the City. It wouldn't be blue and green colors. But if we're only at 6 percent and your goal of where you should have been is percent, 24 plus what good recycled goods can get us back in 25 terms of, you know, money that you get back from 1208 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. it, and what we avoid sending to the landfill, you know, I'd like to see some of your numbers on this. And it feels to me like you need a lot of attention on this. COMMISSIONER MOY: We'll be glad to furnish you the numbers.

I had other questions. Why don't I come back, Mr. President.

Thank you very much. The Chair recognizes Councilman Mariano and then Councilmember Rizzo.

Thank you, Mr. President. Commissioner Moy, tires are a main problem in my life, and it don't seem like we can collect these tires fast enough. And if we can invent a way to do something with these tires, we could all be probably pretty wealthy. I realize what you go through, but in 1996, you actually collected 123,606 tires. The goal for '97 is 85,000 but you only collected 71,783 actually. Well, the other 10,000 are in my neighborhood, in my Council district. So what we'll do is, after this, you 1209 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. and I will hop in the truck and we'll go pick 'em up, okay? And, I mean, I'm not trying to be funny here, I'm being serious. It seems like we're not reaching our goal. We have a community plan once a year. Don't we have something, a community pickup where the people can take them someplace? Is there someplace where community groups can do this all year? I mean, there's -- tires are a hot commodity. Tires are everywhere. They're on every corner of my district, up on Cottman Avenue, down on Second Street. Is there somewhere where we can take tires all the time, where people can take tires? Do we have any plan, now that the Recycling Commissioner is gone? I mean, tires should be more important than cans in my world because at least cans, we could crush 'em up with our feet and then, you know, stack 'em somewhere. But tires, what do we do with tires? COMMISSIONER MOY: Councilman, this is a concern of ours also in terms of the number of 1210 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. tires out there. And there are -- there's difficulty in our mixing, our ability to -- we just can't pick up the tires and then mix them into the trash, as you know. And we will look into that question of whether we can establish drops --

But can we have it -- like we had that place in -- now, I'm just guessing this. We closed these incinerators; can't that be a drop-off point? Let alone the problem of what to do with these tires. My problem is to get 'em off the street; your problem is to help me get 'em off the street, then take care of 'em after you have 'em. I mean, it's something we can't do anything with. I'm sure every gas station throws their tires somewhere after they close 'cause I know every mechanic or part-time mechanic that changes tires, if you go to Sears or if you go to Eppie's, you know, they want extra money to take your tires. So until we achieve that part where the tires are worth money and people are actually stealing like aluminum screen doors, we need to 1211 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. find out what to do with tires, okay? COMMISSIONER MOY: All right. We will look into the concept of drops in addition to the tire roundup that we started in January.

In '98 here? COMMISSIONER MOY: Yes.

We'll have something? COMMISSIONER MOY: Yes.

And I have a question about street lighting. You know, it's admirable that we're going to put more street lights out there. And I know why you're going to put more street lights out there, the same as when we put the alley lights after a big fight about that -- not that we're fighting about street lights. But if we put more street lights in, they're more efficient. You won't have to change 'em, they're not as labor-intensive as the lights that are there now. The bulbs will last longer, correct? COMMISSIONER MOY: That's correct.

My problem with 1212 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. street lighting is much like the alley lighting. When they designed the street lighting whenever, in the sixties or fifties, maybe even in the thirties in some neighborhoods, or maybe even earlier than that, the neighborhoods, they were laid out different. There are a lot of places, especially in Juniata Park and a couple other places like Kensington, around Oxford Circle, where they need more street lighting. And every time I call -- you know, since I've been a Councilman for two years, when I was an administrative assistant for Councilman Kenney for two years, and when I was the Chief of Staff for Councilman Mariano -- McElhatton -- I forget his name, I'm sorry -- McElhatton, for eight months, we could never get any street lights. That's it, we don't put any more in. It was like the Book of Celts, you know, you can't get anything done, it's the holy book. Well, we need street lighting. People are coming to us and saying, We need things. Is there any plans in the scope of this 1213 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. new street lighting to not just replace street lighting, but actually add street lighting. Or over the years, we may have kept some data where people think they need street lighting. COMMISSIONER MOY: Yeah. The plan, as you may be aware, has been more toward -- in this group replacement plan, to put in the more efficient lighting, see how effective that is. And when we complete that, we will identify the gaps that would be worthwhile addressing. But right now --

Commissioner, I don't doubt you, but the way things work in municipal government, it's always been my experience that once we do something, we never go back and do it again. So if somebody's telling you that we're going to put street lighting on certain streets in the City and then we're going to come back and say, Well, it's not good enough here, believe me, that's not going to happen. Once we do this -- my son will be sitting in this seat before we do it again. Let's do it once and do it right. Let's do some kind of 1214 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. study to see how efficient -- these engineers that make these lights, they know how many lumens they send, and they know what the area is. So whatever they say, if they say the spread for the light is yards, well, cut it in 7 half. They're lying. It's 10 yards. So if they 8 say we need one light, then we need two lights. 9 Now, in certain areas, you may be able 10 to get away, but it's a security reason. You 11 know, we're all on this quality-of-life issue, and 12 that boat's tipping over 'cause of all of the 13 people that are on board. One of the 14 quality-of-life issues is security. People need 15 to feel safe. 16 You know, I mean, you're the 17 Commissioner, you're here. I hate to lay this all 18 on you but, you know, don't let them fool you and 19 tell you they're going to come back and do 20 anything. Can't we look at this before we start, much like we did the alley light program? 'Cause when I worked for Councilman Kenney, we went out, we asked a lot of people, community activists where were alley lights at. 1215 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. I'm sure you had -- and you had some list over there. I personally pulled the index cards out of Joe Doyle's files and found out where they were, and still some were missed. It's going to happen. Could we do that? COMMISSIONER MOY: We can examine our lighting patterns and we can go over with you our group replacement plan and show you what the results are between your --

Mm-hmm. And I think you should go over it with the other District Councilmen too. Councilman Nutter's experience may not be lumens, but he's very smart, and he'll be able to figure out where the dead areas and the dark areas are in the Fourth District Council, correct, Councilman?

(Inaudible, off mike.)

All District Councilpeople, top people, District Councilpeople. Not to look at the at-large people; they'll have areas too, but. . . 1216 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. 'Cause we know -- I know my district. I don't know anything about Roxborough, nor do I want to at this point. And he doesn't want to know about Juniata, I hope. Okay? Could we do something with all District Councilpeople, let everybody at least send somebody from their district over and say, Look, this is a trouble area in my district. There was one light 80 years ago, and now it's different. COMMISSIONER MOY: We'll be in touch with each Councilman and Councilperson.

Now, if I may go on here, my third and final problem is the trash collection. Up in the top end of my district, around Cottman Avenue, Clarena sent me a very nice letter about the -- we built larger trash trucks, for obvious reasons. So they need less people and we can put more trash in, and the Streets Department people can make less trips. You know, if they could fill a truck up once as opposed to two or three times, that makes sense. But what I have up here is a lot of 1217 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. people are over 70 years old that are used to putting their trash in the back driveways because they keep their trash downstairs, they drag it out. Now, picture this 70-year-old Mrs. Carlin on the 900-block of Granite Street pulling her trash out, 'cause that's the only thing she does the night before her trash day pickup. Now, she's got to drag it down a flight of steps, down to the front. And it may be only 20, 30 feet to us, but to her, it might as well be a hundred yards. A guy was up there with me last week, whose name I forget, at a community meeting. He was very nice, very congenial, but we still don't solve the problems. I have all these streets. And then the people say these questions like, What do they do in South Philly where them big trucks can't fit down the street? And I don't know the answers. There must be some little trucks still around. I mean, we make these decisions to do these things, and I understand why. I mean, I talked to Riley Harrison from Fleet Management. I 1218 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. mean, I know it's a good thing but we have to have these contingency plans in for the people that have been there, 'cause we're like out there in the trenches. Us District Councilpeople and the At-Large Councilpeople, we have to look Mrs. Carlin in the face and say I don't know what they do in South Philly, let me find out for ya, but I'm sure they collect the trash. Now, I can't see her dragging the trash down the end of the block. Can we do something with that? COMMISSIONER MOY: I have a general awareness of the Granite Street situation, and it's not by itself.

No, it's not just Granite. COMMISSIONER MOY: I understand.

It's Marcella and Granite, Bridge, Scattergood, Brill, Sanger, Carver, Levering, Elbridge, Merian Drive, Loretto, Godfrey, Castor, Loretto. And I have signs in every different language: Russian, Italian, Spanish, English. And that's great, but that still doesn't help Mrs. 1219 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. Carlin. I mean, I need to be able to get her trash short of me going up there, and I'm getting too old to do that too. COMMISSIONER MOY: Right. COMMISSIONER MARIANO: And my 16-year-old doesn't want to do it. COMMISSIONER MOY: What we face is the situation, not just the driveways, but in more acute circumstances, the retaining walls in back of some of these homes, which makes it very difficult for our vehicles, whether they're the new vehicles --

Commissioner -- COMMISSIONER MOY: -- or even some of the old vehicles.

Commissioner, I understand that. But they've been collecting trash for all these years. Mrs. Carlin's existence, since she's been married, they've been collecting her trash. And she's 70 years old. Now, all of a sudden, they're saying they don't have a small trash truck. I understand. I mean, I do. When I 1220 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. worked for Jim Kenney, we went through this in Overbrook where they did the big trash truck. When we buy these new trash trucks, don't we like save an old one for these -- where there's areas where there's a great population of seniors, where it could be a problem? I mean, short of not collecting their trash, I don't know this we're going to do with people like this. I mean, this lady cried to me. I couldn't believe somebody was crying to me about trash, but it was as important to her as someone else telling me about their son being shot somewhere else. I mean, it really bothered me. What can we do? Can we get another trash truck, a small one? Instead of buying ten big ones, can we buy eight and then maybe four small ones or three small ones and do these little areas? COMMISSIONER MOY: We can take a look again at not only Granite Street but some of these other streets and see if there's a way to fit a different vehicle into our mix. But, as you know, there's a lot of the high-productivity -- I guess this is a 25-yarder 1221 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. that we're trying to fit down here.

Mm-hmm, I'm sure, but I'm sure somebody younger -- COMMISSIONER MOY: And I think it's 85 percent of our pickup is actually out in front, so we can address your concerns again in --

There might be some other District Councilpeople with the same problem. It happens in my district. Councilman DiCicco, it may happen in South Philly, the large trash trucks, they changed to large ones. How do we get up and down these streets? I mean, this is something that we have to think about when we do this figuring, when we figure out that we're buying the 25-yarders. Now, I understand, but Mrs. Carlton doesn't understand. COMMISSIONER MOY: Okay.

And it's really bad. Okay, that's it, Mr. President. Thank you.

The Chair recognizes Councilmember Rizzo.

Thank you, Mr. 1222 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. President. Commissioner Moy, going back to the tire situation, I don't know if you could explain or maybe someone can. I recall when you purchase a new set of tires that there's a dollar or there's a fee associated with a disposal charge. What are we doing to enforce the improper -- which I consider tires a hazardous waste. Look at what happened at I-95 as a result of the fire there. What kind of enforcement is there? A tire has a serial number. In the event that there's a big pile of tires, has there ever been any investigation on who dumps them to try to track them down? 'Cause it is really a terrible situation. And what is that dollar that we pay when we dispose or buy a new tire? What is it supposed to do if it's called "a disposal fee"? COMMISSIONER MOY: I believe the dollar you talk about, the surcharge, is a State-levied charge, and they do both the collection, enforcement, and I think they utilize the 1223 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. resources, Councilman. In terms of our policing of this, we have not the resources to go into a detail check on the dumping, as you indicated. I mean, we can talk about the --

Well, Commissioner, it really impresses me that you have somebody that counts tires, that you picked up 72,000 of them. You know, that amazes me that you know how many tires that you pick up. I'm really impressed by that. Councilman Mariano mentioned about the people that at one time put their trash in the rear and now to the front. Is that one of the reasons that on of your testimony, you indicate that productivity goals and performance monitoring have lead to increased tonnage and pickups by compactor crews? Could you explain how you've picked up on this increased tonnage? What have you done to accomplish that? COMMISSIONER MOY: There's a series of things that we've done. I think the combination of acquiring up-to-date equipment that was more 1224 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. productive and planning our routes, we have a (unintelligible) routing system which tries to allocate the resources that we have to match the amount of trash and the mix of trash that's generated throughout different parts. So we establish routes and truck and crew deployment sort of based upon that mix. That's part of it. And we've had good management standards in terms of trying to work on productivity from the work force. Each of these things have helped to increase our general productivity.

Commissioner, my last question is the -- and I think it is going to be confusing for the foreseeable future. The responsibility of the maintenance of the County of Philadelphia's roadways, whether it be PENNDOT, whether it be the Streets Department, whether it be SEPTA. Could you explain the relationship between the Philadelphia Streets Department and PENNDOT? Because it appears that there's a line in the sand where it's difficult for the Streets Department to get PENNDOT to respond, and I think 1225 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. you know the specific project that I have an interest in, and I don't want to be specific today. But it appears that we don't have the folks or the relationship within our government to work with PENNDOT when we have an obviously very dangerous situation that you don't -- you recognize that it is not a good situation, where you don't want to spend the money to fix and then you throw the ball back at PENNDOT and you say, Well, it's not our responsibility, it's PENNDOT's. At what point are you going to stamp your foot and say to PENNDOT, We're not going to tolerate you allowing these roadways to get in the condition that they're in and endanger the citizens that drive these roadways every day. I'd like to know about the relationship that we have with PENNDOT to appeal to them for basic services. COMMISSIONER MOY: We generally enjoy a very favorable relationship, a good relationship with PENNDOT and -- both on a professional basis. But when we get into the costing, they obviously have decisions to make with respect to funding 1226 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. high-cost items. We've written -- in the instance that you're talking about, we've written to PENNDOT. I will make a call also to see whether we can get their support to get the kind work you're talking about.

But, Commissioner, I'm talking about miles and miles of roadway that I am honestly tired of telling the constituents that call me that it's a problem that is not a Streets Department problem but it is a State problem. Do we have a mechanism within the Streets Department? Do we have a person that works directly with PENNDOT to say, Hey, guys, you just can't leave this condition in this way because it's damaging vehicles, it's causing an embarrassment to the Administration. Do we have a person, a liaison, between PENNDOT and the Streets Department? COMMISSIONER MOY: We have a whole series of folks that work on a daily basis with PENNDOT. And depending upon, you know, the situation, the street or roads or highways that 1227 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. you're talking about, we can impart that kind of message to them. They will -- they are -- they generally respond to us, especially on routine maintenance. Now, if we're talking about -- if you can give me an example of some specific things that --

Well, you know the one I'm -- again, I don't want to publicly discuss the issue that -- you know exactly what I'm talking about. COMMISSIONER MOY: I understand.

But, Commissioner, my point is, when they say no to you, do your people just say, Oh, okay, you know, we'll accept no. Do we ever get our back up and take 'em on and say, We want this fixed and it's your responsibility to fix it? COMMISSIONER MOY: We stay after PENNDOT. It's one of those things where we do not get into -- we try not to get into confrontational situations with PENNDOT where we can avoid it, and we're usually effective in getting them to come around. 1228 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. Now, we can talk to them again about the specific situation you raised.

Again, beyond that specific situation, I think the relationship with PENNDOT -- between Streets and PENNDOT, to me, it seems that we tolerate a little bit more than we should because they owe the citizens of Philadelphia more in the quality of roadways that they're responsible for maintaining. I think that sometimes we're too nice guys when it comes to dealing with PENNDOT. Thank you, Commissioner. Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Commissioner, I just want to make sure that I understand this. I've heard little pieces of this discussion over the years. It is my understanding that the City of Philadelphia has contractual arrangements with PENNDOT to do some of this, some or all of this work, and that PENNDOT doesn't actually do the work but that we do the work and then bill 24 PENNDOT. Is that true? COMMISSIONER MOY: No, that -- well, 1229 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. that's in a very limited area, Councilman. The contract that we have is for snow removal on highways, for the non-limited access portion of the State highways. So we do have a contract for that. But then all of the remaining responsibilities for curb and for street maintenance between curb lines remains the State's responsibility.

And does the State send out crews in order to do that work? COMMISSIONER MOY: That's correct.

And it's your position that the State doesn't have any responsibility to do the work; and if a request for work comes in and/or if the Streets Department identifies work that needs to be done, you'll call them and ask them to do the work? COMMISSIONER MOY: That's correct, that's what -- in other words, it's their responsibility, and we call it to their attention. And we do the same thing with SEPTA. Now, we work out relationships so that if there's an emergency situation, we do try to 1230 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. work out solutions between us, that if we can get to something quicker --

I don't understand what that means. COMMISSIONER MOY: If there were a cave-in or something of an emergency situation, we've arranged for -- we'll barricade something off until PENNDOT can get there. If it's more accessible to us, a particular site, if it's on a State highway --

Who's liable for accidents that occur on streets that are not properly maintained within the City of Philadelphia if it can be determined that there is negligence on the part of any governmental entity? Is it PENNDOT or is it the City? COMMISSIONER MOY: Well, I think the lawyers will sue us all. And I think that they will --

We're good at that. COMMISSIONER MOY: They will go after the design elements, they'll go after the construction elements, and they'll go after the maintenance elements of that street. 1231 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. If it's a State highway, they will sue both the State and the City, and we will have our lawyers just, you know, take their -- go into their opposite corners on that.

Who pays? COMMISSIONER MOY: That depends. I think we have been successful on a number of State highways to have the State being held responsible. And we --

So you're telling us it is possible for it to be a State highway, we have notified the State of certain dangerous conditions that exist on the highway, an accident can occur, injury can result, liability can be determined, and then the City can be held responsible for the work to have been done on a State highway? COMMISSIONER MOY: Yeah, it's a little -- it gets a little more gray there as we move into the areas --

Well, tell me how it gets a little more gray. COMMISSIONER MOY: If it gets into traffic controls and if it gets into the original 1232 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. design of some of these roadways. If it's pure maintenance, it more than likely go to the State. I mean, if our lawyers can convince the judge or the jury that there is clear evidence that this was simply a pothole that occurred on the State highway, it would be the State's responsibility, but they're usually --

Well, I had this occasion. I'm traveling -- this is a personal situation, I was traveling south on 15th Street, probably a City street. COMMISSIONER MOY: Stay Highway.

Is it a -- State Highway? COMMISSIONER MOY: Yes.

I'm traveling south on 15th Street. All of a sudden, boom. I'm in my old truck, and there had to be something more than just a pothole. It was a sink hole. It had to be 18 inches, right? And the whole right front end the truck -- I mean, the tire rods break, the whole -- everything. You know what I'm talking about? COMMISSIONER MOY: Yes. 1233 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT.

You couldn't drive the truck, you absolutely could not drive the truck. There's no question it was in the middle of the block. It wasn't a question about traffic lights. And the City could be held responsible for failure in a case like that? Now, I just went about my business. You know, I couldn't get into suing the City, right? But you're telling me that the City could be held responsible for that? COMMISSIONER MOY: Again, it could be -- it would depend on circumstances. If there were a utility that --

I just gave you the circumstances. COMMISSIONER MOY: Well, the circumstances, if there were a utility below that caused that problem, an attorney could make that point and argue that if it were a City-owned utility that was causal in causing the hole, then PENNDOT would certainly make that case against us. So it's hard to give an absolute black-and-white answer here. All State highways 1234 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. are clearly the State's responsibility 100 percent of the time in terms of a court of law.

Well, what if any notice do we send to the State or anyone else in order to minimize counter-liability that we might have? I mean, do we do anything like that? COMMISSIONER MOY: We have -- when it's called to our attention, our different district people will notify them in writing. They'll call them on the phone and then they will also notice them in writing of a street defect on a State highway.

Did we ever have contracts between the City of Philadelphia and PENNDOT which provided that we do this kind of maintenance work on State highways and get reimbursed from the State? COMMISSIONER MOY: No, not to my knowledge. I'm not aware of that.

Mr. President, I'd like to get back to that.

Councilman Rizzo.

Mr. President, this is a perfect example of probably spending more 1235 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. money, taxpayers' money, on lawyers than it would have cost to fix the hole in the first place. And we should probably utilize the idea that you said, we should just take care of the problem in the first place and then bill back somehow the State. Because the State has how many days, Commissioner, after the Streets Department notifies them to fix an obstruction? Two days, three days? COMMISSIONER MOY: Well, that's their responsibility. Their response time is up to them, I think.

But, Commissioner, not just the President of City Council's car, but five other cars got damaged that again have the same attitude that the President had, that you're not going to fight City Hall, you're not going to fight PENNDOT, and there's some hard-working person that has to go out and spend 2, $300 or more on repair of the vehicle, that pair of shoes or whatever for their kids. I think it's irresponsible that we would allow this and, you know, I've been on this thing with these utility ditches, the way PECO, 1236 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. the gas company leave the streets for the citizens to negotiate them. And I think that what we need to do is either get a little, you know, tougher with PENNDOT. Because I report a problem on a Monday and I ride by that location on Friday, and the problem is still there. And I call back, and we're waiting for PENNDOT when I see ten hubcaps on the side of the roadway that someone encountered and damaged their vehicle. And it really bothers me when I see people's vehicles damaged. Or an accident could occur in avoiding the hole, losing control of the vehicle, having a head-on collision. I think we've got to get tough with PENNDOT. And I'd be absolutely willing to work with you on that. And you basically asked me if I had any friends in PENNDOT to let you know. And, I tell you, we need to do something about this 'cause it's terrible. Thank you, Mr. President.

Thank you very much. Commissioner, I'd like for you to contact the Law Department and see if you can get 1237 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. for us some analysis of the potential liability, past and present, for hazardous conditions that exist on the highways over which there might be some dispute as to who's responsible. This is more than just a little bit of a problem for us, and I'd like for you to get us some information and make it available to the Chair so that it can be distributed to all Members of Council. Now, at this time, I would like to make an announcement. This is relevant to all of the City Operating Departments scheduled to give testimony today. At 1:30 today, this Committee will stand in recess. At 2 o'clock, there will be an emergency briefing in the Mayor's conference room on gas deregulation. We were originally scheduled to have this briefing, I think, on Thursday morning. But as some Members know, I think Councilwoman Tasco knows, those folks who are involved in this will be in Harrisburg on Thursday as a part of this whole negotiation process. And so they won't be able to give a briefing to us as scheduled on Thursday. And they 1238 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. are supposed to go to Harrisburg tomorrow, and most of them will be staying over. We think that it is important that Councilmembers get a briefing as soon as possible. This gas deregulation stuff is moving very, very fast. So what we would like to do is recess these hearings at 1:30, at 2 o'clock convene in the Mayor's cabinet room, have our briefing, the briefing we originally planned to have on Thursday, have it today. And then after that briefing, resume our public hearings. This stuff is just really, really zipping along, and I don't think we can afford to be in a position where the thing that we plan to have on Thursday doesn't happen, and then we have to wait until next week. Councilmembers really need to be -- I mean, a lot of it is still up in the air. It's a lot of questions, but you still need to know at least what the questions are, even if there are no 23 answers to those questions. So we will be recessing at 1:30, we will convene at 2 o'clock in the Mayor's 1239 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. conference room, we will have a briefing. The briefing that was originally scheduled for Thursday, we will do it today. And then after that briefing, we will come back and finish up our public hearings for today. Does anybody have any questions about that? (No questions at this time.)

Notices have been sent to all your offices. I have notices here, but we really do need -- we can't afford to keep putting this thing off, because the schedule of these various negotiations and meetings in Harrisburg, you know, runs over till is Thursday. Any questions about that? (No questions at this time.)

Most of us plan to be here anyway, so we'll recess at 1:30, be down in the Mayor's Office at 2 to get the basic briefing done, and then we'll come back and then we'll finish up our public testimony for today. Does any Councilmember have any question about that? (No questions at this time.) 1240 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT.

Thank you very much. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Tasco.

Good morning. Good morning, Mr. Moy. COMMISSIONER MOY: Good morning, Councilwoman Tasco.

I guess you think I'm going to ask you about alley lights, right? I understand I'm supposed to get an answer today or in writing regarding the alley lights in the Ninth District. COMMISSIONER MOY: Yes. I thought our street lighting engineer had been in touch with your office to try and work on the specifics of the driveways that you were concerned about.

I guess in addition -- I'm concerned about the specifics in my district, but what bothers me more is the fact that we vote on a budget item, a capital budget item, under the assumption that the funds allocated are going to cover what we vote on. And we were told whenever we voted on the whole alley lighting project, that the money would be appropriated for alley lights and the 1241 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. replacement of alley lights throughout the City. But then when we get to my district -- and I don't know about other districts -- we are told that the money is no longer there. And that is what I have the problem with. Because if you're not going to do the entire City, as we vote on it, then I need to know that at the point when you are requesting funds for the improvement. And I think it's unfair to us to ask us to vote on money and tell us that it's going to cover one thing; and then later on, during the process, there are no funds. And that's what I have the problem with. COMMISSIONER MOY: I would agree with you, Councilwoman. I did not think that we had a problem with insufficient funds for that program. And if we have a specific driveway or two, or if there are ones that we've missed on, we'd be happy to go over them. And that's what I thought our street lighting engineer was prepared to do with your office. I don't think it's a wide -- I didn't think it was a widespread problem. 1242 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT.

Well, I don't know if it's widespread, but it's widespread within the Ninth Councilmatic District, which is pretty big. It includes about six wards and about 155,000 people, I don't know how many alleys. But that is a programmatic issue that I have a real problem with. COMMISSIONER MOY: We can be in touch again with your office.

The other thing I have a concern about is the time it takes when we make requests for street paving, why it takes so long. Or why when we ask for traffic lights and they don't get installed. And I requested a traffic light at 66th and Tenth Avenue, and it was rejected. Yet, it was installed when Councilwoman Fernandez asked for it. Could you tell me why that happened? Sounds like the street signs. COMMISSIONER MOY: I'm not familiar offhand with that specific intersection, Councilwoman.

I think there are some serious monitoring of your staff that needs 1243 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. to take place. Because while you may be committed to doing one thing, your staff may not be. In terms of my office, when we get things done, it doesn't seem to be that it follows through on your commitment. And I have a serious problem with that. COMMISSIONER MOY: We will check that situation out and report it to you.

That's pretty much where it is. I have some requests here, and I won't belabor the record with those requests, but I'm going to send them to you one more time. COMMISSIONER MOY: All right.

And I expect something to happen with them because I am representing the people in the Ninth Councilmatic District. And they live there, they know what goes on there, and they expect us as City officials to provide the services to them. And these are not big requests; they are very small requests. And we'll do it one more time. 1244 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. COMMISSIONER MOY: All right.

And if not, we'll have to take some other kind of action. COMMISSIONER MOY: All right. We'll be happy to discuss it. (Councilman Verna takes over the Chair.)

Councilwoman Tasco, are you finished with your questioning?

Oh, yes. I'm sorry.

Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman DiCicco.

Thank you, Madame Chair. Good morning, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER MOY: Good morning, Councilman.

I arrived here a little bit late this morning so if I ask something that's already been answered, just tell me it's already been answered, and I'll go back to the record. One of my questions has to do with the 1245 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. number of municipal buildings that are a part of the recycling program. Are all of the Municipal Department buildings participating in that program? COMMISSIONER MOY: We've concentrated to date on the major buildings, Councilman, and I think next year we're going to concentrate on some of the district facilities after the police stations, fire stations, recreation centers, and libraries.

When that material is collected, who is collecting that? Who is collecting the recycled material? COMMISSIONER MOY: With the exception of in the MSB and the Criminal Justice Center, I think they have their own pickup there, the Streets Department picks up the rest of it.

When you say "their own pickup," is that privately? COMMISSIONER MOY: It's private.

In the Municipal Services Building -- COMMISSIONER MOY: And the Criminal Justice Center. 1246 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT.

And the CJC. COMMISSIONER MOY: It's private.

They're privately -- they have a private hauler or whatever? COMMISSIONER MOY: Yes.

And the other buildings are done by the Sanitation Department. COMMISSIONER MOY: That's correct.

What happens to the materials that are collected by the Philadelphia Sanitation Department? Is that process done in the normal disposal manner, or is that being sold? COMMISSIONER MOY: It's handled the way that the other recycling is handled, you know, through the regular curb-side collection for residential.

All right, so -- again, I got here a little bit late, but is that material sold? Or is that just -- COMMISSIONER MOY: Some of it is sold and some of it, we actually pay for to get rid of, depending on the price of the commodity.

That's what I 1247 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. wanted to get to. There is a market out there for recyclable materials. Wouldn't it be economically prudent for us to have all of the recyclable materials collected by someone who will pay us for our waste, rather than us pay our sanitation employees, our Department's budget, to pick up materials and pay somebody else to take something that we could normally receive money for? COMMISSIONER MOY: We'd be glad to do that if the economics went that way. I think there's, you know, obviously other costs that you incur here, the collections costs for us. And I think there would be collection costs for privates. I mean, when you look at the partnerships where there are --

Why are we -- why are we engaged in a contract, I assume, with CJC and the Municipal Services Building for the collection of waste materials that are recyclable materials that have a value to them and not for the other departments? COMMISSIONER MOY: I think it has to do 1248 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. with the contracts, existing contracts, that they had in the buildings, the Public Property had for picking up trash. And they basically considered this a part of their contract.

My point, again, is, though, why, if we have a contract, why do we have those contracts? Why wouldn't we have a contract with a company or companies that will pay us for our waste materials? COMMISSIONER MOY: Well, they're not -- I don't think there's a lot of people paying us. You know, I think it's limited. For example, in the paper, we're now paying. We were collecting a few years ago when the market was high in terms of paper, but we're now paying $20 or so a ton for them to take that from us.

So people are not paying for paper today? COMMISSIONER MOY: No. I mean, it's not enough -- the economics just aren't there for us.

But if we had a waste disposal company that would provide the 1249 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. service, picking up more materials, wouldn't that make our Department run more efficiently? Couldn't we use those resources that we are -- our City resources for other things, for other waste collections? And wouldn't that save us some money in the process? COMMISSIONER MOY: We could explore that, I think. We have the problem of providing curb-side collections at every household, which is mandated by the State. But we could certainly look into your suggestion of seeing whether there's a different way to --

I'm not an expert at this, but I thought there was a market out there for our product, or anyone's product for that matter, for recyclable materials. And I'm wondering why all the various buildings, the municipal buildings, aren't participating in a recycling program. I mean, we're supposed to be setting an example. In fact, I want to speak to the Council President. I think it would be nice if we had some recycling buckets in this chamber. I know 1250 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. our waste gets all mixed up in here. But if we're asking people to participate in a recycling program, individual citizens, why is government -- I think we should be setting the example. And if we are not willing to take that initiative, how can we expect the average person to hold on to their trash weekly and then put it out on the curb? Which I encourage, by the way, and I support. And when we have -- obviously, I think, we probably have a daily pickup in our municipal buildings. We should be putting that stuff out every day. And I remember when I was a court administrator of Traffic Court, we had our own program up there where we collected the cans and paper. And the money -- we had a private company that would pay us for our materials. And that money went into a holiday party campaign. We would have a party down at Palumbo's. But, I mean, you know, that's what we did with the money, but people were willing to pay us for our waste. 1251 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. I'm kind of lost that the City Streets Department isn't looking into those areas. COMMISSIONER MOY: We have looked at that, Councilman, and the market has changed significantly in two years. Now, we can go over it again and go over it --

Well, I know that the price of paper sometimes is high and sometimes is lower, as with any other material, depending on the demand. But I would think that the resources that -- again, not to be redundant -- but the resources that we're using, if we're using Sanitation Department employees to pick up this material and then we have to pay for it to be taken away, I just think it would be a lot more efficient for us to contract with a private -- and I'm not just into privatization, but we're getting rid of it. And maybe we can get money for it. And if we don't get money for it, at least somebody else is picking it up and taking it away. I mean, I think it's like kind of double work here. It's costing us a lot more 1252 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. money than we should be spending. The other question I have is with the commercial recycling. Where are we with commercial recycling? And is there any effort to educate the public on what their responsibility is in regards to recycling in the commercial sector? I mean, I know many of my friends who have restaurants and delis and all, and no one recycles anything. They don't recycle even on the recycling day. I haven't seen this, at least I haven't seen it in my district. COMMISSIONER MOY: Yeah, we have commercial regulations for recycling, which we've tried to promote and get out into the public arena over the last couple of years. And we've had limited success with respect to the responses. Each business is supposed to have a compliance plan. We have in addition to that, going out in the -- in addition to having an organization that has been promoting this and educating folks as to the benefits of it in their different companies, we've gone ahead in business corridors and have used our sweep people to educate the 1253 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. businesses along specific corridors.

Could you explain briefly how the educational process is working. How are we educating the guy who has the luncheonette on the corner? Does someone physically go out and tell him or her? COMMISSIONER MOY: We have people that do go out and visit that owner, and they counsel them on what the benefits are and the law and the regulations.

How many people do you have going out with that information Citywide? COMMISSIONER MOY: There are three people going out.

There are just three people going out to all the commercial establishments in the City of Philadelphia -- COMMISSIONER MOY: Well, they're going out --

-- telling them what they need to do? COMMISSIONER MOY: They're going out to specific corridors. 1254 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. Now, in addition to that, we have promoted -- and we are going to put it on the Web there, and we use The Business Journal and we use other means to acquaint people with their responsibilities.

Have we used those yet? COMMISSIONER MOY: No, we're -- we've used The Business Journal, and we're planning on actually going on the Web soon.

Well, I don't know if the little mom-and-pop store gets The Business Journal is my point. I think we have more of those types of operations in the City than we probably have -- and the bigger companies have a program of their own because it becomes cost- efficient for them to do their own recycling and stuff. I think we need to get it out into the community. And that's where it is. And I've been told -- and I don't know whether this is correct or not -- that we may have lost $200,000 in a State grant for a media blitz to educate people. Is that true? And if it is, I'm 1255 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. wondering why we lost that grant. COMMISSIONER MOY: I'm told that this is a problem we have had with the State in terms of the mechanics of some ADA language that they required in terms of our contract. And we are discussing with the State our getting that funding.

So we did lose the 200,000? COMMISSIONER MOY: Well, it's still under discussion with the State.

What needs to be done? I mean, $200,000 would go a long way in educating -- and with all due respect to the three people that with we have combing the City, I think the 200,000 is desperately needed. Although I may not want to stay here for seven terms, but by the time my seventh term ended, I would assume that those three people will still not have reached all of the commercial properties in the City of Philadelphia. Three people's just not enough. And, again, it disheartens me 'cause I know what I do as an individual when it comes to 1256 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. recycling. And I see the corner grocer, the corner luncheonette just throwing their trash in with regular trash. It's just -- I don't know, I don't think we're getting anywhere with that. And I don't mean that to be critical; I'm just offering some suggestions. And if I can be of any assistance with the State, I'd be more than happy to help you with that. COMMISSIONER MOY: We appreciate that.

But, excuse me, did we or did we not lose the State plan? COMMISSIONER MOY: We are under discussion with the State about that. Because there's a difference in their view of the --

We lost it. COMMISSIONER MOY: -- of the contract requirements.

And who in your office is dealing with that issue? COMMISSIONER MOY: Diane Lyness, in our Recycling Office.

I didn't mean to interrupt you, Councilman.

That's all right. 1257 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. You're the Chair, you're entitled to do that.

Thank you.

The only other question I have is: Do we have any plans for adding to the enforcement personnel that we have in the Sweep Program and whatever? COMMISSIONER MOY: We've added another supervisor and another employee to that.

And that will give us a grand total of. . . ? COMMISSIONER MOY: A total of 22.

I have no further questions at this time, Madame Chair.

Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Miller.

Thank you, Madame Chair. Good morning, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER MOY: Good morning, Councilwoman.

I first want to thank you for your help and the cooperation of your staff in the two years that I've been here. COMMISSIONER MOY: Thank you. 1258 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT.

I have a couple questions. Most of them are service-oriented questions. The Germantown Special Services District is finally starting to make a difference, and shoppers are using trash baskets. It's my understanding that they need more baskets along Chelten Avenue. And, you know, they have a new contractor, a new person that does the cleaning, and they've increased the volume of trash and they need to be able to work out where the trash will be picked up on a daily basis. COMMISSIONER MOY: We'll be happy to evaluate that and work with Germantown and Chelten.

Good, okay. And, again, around trash cans, what is the Adopt-a-Basket Program? And are those cans only placed at bus stops, at corners that have bus stops? And what is the responsibility of the adoptee or the owner of the property or whomever? COMMISSIONER MOY: Let me ask Deputy 1259 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. Commissioner Clarena Tolson to respond to that. DEPT. COMM. TOLSON: The Adopt-a- Basket Program allows for the placement of baskets in noncommercial corridors. The City places cans, the wire mesh baskets on the commercial corridors. There are also places where citizens are concerned about their property because of schools, bus stops, or other pedestrians that might be there that dispose of litter. And people are willing to take responsibility for a litter basket if they were to have a one. And the Adopt-a-Basket Program allows them to get a basket from us, and then they are responsible for changing the liners and putting it out for on trash day when we collect it.

Okay, thank you. I want to ask you some questions around Street repaving. I think when you were here before, we met, and there was a schedule now of street repaving. Was it seven years instead of fifteen? Or streets are repaved how many years apart? COMMISSIONER MOY: Actually, it depends upon the nature of the street, but some of your 1260 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. sort of primary, heavily-used streets and State highways might be in that seven-year life cycle. The sort of residential type street that's low usage might be into the 15-, maybe even 20-year range in terms of resurfacing cycles.

When an area is designated for repaving, can you help me understand why they'll repave everything around towards the worst blocks of the area and won't do those? And I just can't figure that one out. COMMISSIONER MOY: Well, the way that the folks -- the way this is done, usually there are six highway districts in the City, and the District Engineer for that district has a good awareness of their needs. And they have a plan to move more or less geographically within their district. I mean, they try to respond to requests that they have from folks such as yourself and other individuals and the general quality of the street itself, knowing their inventory of streets. And they try and cluster these into contracts, or if the City forces are doing them, cluster those streets in groupings that make sense 1261 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. to them, and they kind of rotate them through their district over a period of years. I don't know why they would miss -- if there are in fact streets that are --

Well, it was actually in the cluster, it was right in the middle of the cluster, which is why I can't figure out why they didn't do -- COMMISSIONER MOY: Well, we would just have to look at those streets and see, you know, what the reason was. There are sometimes utilities -- one of the things that happens with these planning clusters is they actually pass them through the utilities first before they schedule them and ask them to speak now or forever hold your peace in terms of their coming in there. Now, if the utilities say they're going to be coming in there very shortly, we may in fact hold back the couple of streets out of that cluster until the utility finishes their work.

Okay. So we just need to do a memo or something to bring those streets to the attention of your Department? 1262 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. COMMISSIONER MOY: We'll be looking at those, yes.

All right, thank you. Also, can we talk again about Chelten Avenue? Chelten Avenue, pretty much from Wayne up to Chew, and I may have missed a block or two, it feels like a roller coaster when you're going down it. You know, it's bumpy, it leans. And I know people for years have been talking about the replacement or repaving of Chelten, not just the repaving, I guess leveling it out because it seems like there's a hill next to the curb and then it comes in or goes down. What is the status of redoing Chelten Avenue through the business district? COMMISSIONER MOY: Yeah, I understand what you're talking about. There's a lot of shelving and rutting on that street. That's federal aid -- that happens to be a federal aid street for us. It done -- the last time it was done was quite a number of years ago. I would have to ask our folks where this is in the cycle of federal aid programs for us. 1263 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT.

Can you get back to us on that because -- COMMISSIONER MOY: We will.

-- we get those questions all the time about the needs on Chelten Avenue. COMMISSIONER MOY: Right.

Also, as you know, the constituents love the fact that they have all these wonderful new streets, but then it creates another problem where people like to speed down these, you know, new highways. So I go to community meetings, and many times people bring up the issue of can they get speed bumps? And then they'll say, Oh, I know there's a neighborhood in Philadelphia that has speed bumps. Are any Philadelphia streets -- does any Philadelphia streets have speed bumps? COMMISSIONER MOY: We have no legally installed speed bumps in the City, not on the City streets.

Okay. COMMISSIONER MOY: There may be some on 1264 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. driveways or parking lots.

Okay. Is my time almost up?

You can continue, you might as well finish. You can finish your question.

Okay, good. The other thing I wanted to talk about this morning are the school flashing lights. We get lots and lots and lots of requests regarding school flashing lights. It's my understanding -- I think the notice from you said we get two in each Council district, and someone told me it was actually four. Can you tell me what is the maximum amount per City Council district on school flashing lights per year? COMMISSIONER MOY: Actually, what has happened is that since the institution of the legislation there, we've had two contracts, Councilwoman, in which we had a number of requests that were made -- applications that were made from schools throughout the City. The first contract was approximately 1265 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. $250,000 or so, I think. And we allocated -- we allocated resources in accordance with the applications that we had. The first year, it was very irregular in terms of the numbers that we had and where they were located. The second contract, I think, is coming out very shortly. And that's in the same neighborhood, I think, in terms of costs. There's not a fixed number or an amount. I think it varies by the location of the school and what the streets are and how many signals you'll need as to the cost. So you probably have guidelines as to how much it would cost or how many you could get in terms of a district.

Okay. Thank you, Commissioner.

Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Cohen.

Thank you, Madame Chair. On the last page of the statement that was distributed on behalf of the Streets Department, on the service level impacts, the very 1266 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. last page, down to around line or 8, where it says "materials recycled." All the way on the left, it says "materials recycled," then it goes on to tons recycled. And I call your attention the column which says "Fiscal Year 1997 Original Goal" and then the next column which says "Actual." And in the goal for 1997, it was 51,050 tons, and the actual amount apparently collected was 43,865, some 7,000, a little more than 7,000 under. Could you tell us why? COMMISSIONER MOY: I think there could be at least two contributing factors to that. And the one is that I think scavenging at that time was at a higher level, much higher level, partly because of the value of the materials. Scavengers were going out and picking some of the recycled material off. And, two, I think it was also a -- that may have been the bad winter that we had. After that, the weather may have contributed to some subsequent recycling behavior.

Forgive my lawyerly instincts, but you're telling me what could have 1267 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. been. And I could add to the two you gave me maybe a dozen other could-have-been's. But what I'd like to know is what actually happened that year. Scavengers, we know, always begin to operate as soon as the market value of recyclables go up. It become productive, apparently, and economical for scavengers to enter into the field. So I assume we have some methods to try and deal with that. But what I'd like to know is what actually happened, not what might have been the reasons for it. Has anybody really dug into that? COMMISSIONER MOY: We can do an analysis and get back to you on that.

The reason I'm asking is, historically, the Streets Department has always been opposed to recycling, always. Since the days I first came into City Council in 1968, every obstacle that could be thought of to prevent the beginning of recycling was used. The Streets Department thought it was some foolishness on behalf of some liberals or 1268 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. some community people or some recycling nuts or whatever -- however the phrases were used. And that's the reason when Council first enacted legislation requiring recycling, we tried to put it into the Mayor's Office, then finally compromised and put it into the Managing Director's Office. And then when some of us in Council became busy with some other items that were also very important, it managed to get into the Streets Department where it has been lingering along. And then with the leaving of Al Dezzi, with whom I had many differences, but he also was the most enthusiastic recycling supporter I've ever known in government. He came in, he took hold, and he tried to wend his way throughout, you know, the difficulties in the Streets Department. Because the core of membership in the Streets Department -- I don't speak ill of any of them individually. They were raised at a time when recycling was a just fad, and they thought it would just be a waste of money. And I assume that's why they always opposed it. But with Al Dezzi's loss now, I'm 1269 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. fearful that the recycling program is just going to die a very natural death. And each year for one reason or another, there's going to be a decline in the amount recycled. We've understood for years that we were going to go back to the once-a-week recycling. We thought there was going to be some system for the recycling, the capture of plastics material. None of that has happened. Who -- who -- how long has Dezzi been gone now? COMMISSIONER MOY: I'd say about a month.

And who's taking his place? COMMISSIONER MOY: We are -- actually, as soon as the budget hearings are over, we are going to address the filling of Al Dezzi's position.

You're going to do what? COMMISSIONER MOY: We're going to address the filling of Al Dezzi's position.

You can't do two 1270 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. things at one time? (Laughter.)

It reminds me of a famous president that. . . You know, the Streets Department does a lot of things at one time, don't you? COMMISSIONER MOY: Yes, we do.

Well, it seems to me that if there was any interest in recycling, you would be at it and you would go after somebody who's a real recycling enthusiast, you know, who believes in the concept. COMMISSIONER MOY: We have met with the RAC, and we have talked about this. We just have not gone out into the open market for this as of yet. But we are going to actively address it, and we have told the RAC that.

Well, I can tell you that the RAC -- that's the Recycling Advisory Committee? COMMISSIONER MOY: Yes.

The Recycling Advisory Committee has always been quite unhappy with the way it's been treated in the Streets 1271 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. Department. But specifically now, they realize how endangered the whole recycling program is. It seems to me that it ought to become a very high priority. Then the matters that Councilman DiCicco raised could be dealt with very effectively. 'Cause on the surface, it would appear that he's right, we're paying double. We collect a lot of recycled materials, and then we pay somebody else to come in and finally remove it from the City. I guess that's when the market comes down? And when the market is up, I guess they still come and remove it from the City, but they pay us? COMMISSIONER MOY: That's right.

And instead of we giving them the check, they give us a check? COMMISSIONER MOY: That's correct.

Right? COMMISSIONER MOY: That's correct.

I'm just terribly concerned about -- and are you going to look nationally or locally? How are you going to find 1272 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. somebody? COMMISSIONER MOY: We believe there would be local folks around that we can explore, and we have dealt with the RAC group who has agreed to help us as we look for capable people.

All right. It's a very troublesome thing. Incidently, Councilman DiCicco, my study indicates that the problem of lost State funds might be five times -- I heard you mention a figure of 200,000. My understanding is that over the last year or two, the figure of lost State funds, because of the late filing of applications or the incomplete filing of applications or the errors made in the filing of applications, cost the City about a million dollars, a little over that figure. Now, would there be -- I don't want to take the time of the budget hearing to go into all of the details because I have about three pages of questions on recycling. Would there be an opportunity for you to -- well, I -- as soon as you got a recycler in 1273 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. charge, we would like very much to get involved. A number of us in Council are very much interested in the health and vitality of the recycling program. Do we have to put in new legislation to take it out of the Streets Department if you don't want that program? You know, if your department made it clear to us, we could set up either a separate department or put it back in the Managing Director's or make it a division in the Mayor's Office. Do you have any thoughts on that score? COMMISSIONER MOY: I was not aware that we can -- apparently, we produced the result of expressing disinterest on the part of Streets Department to you about recycling. But we're pledged to recycle, and we see no need to have legislation to take it from the Streets Department. Certainly, the Administration's committed to it, and we will -- when we get a recycler on board, we will be happy to meet with you. 1274 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT.

Right. And what can we do to speed up that process? COMMISSIONER MOY: We are going to speed it up. I can't promise you a specific date, Councilman, but we will give it attention as soon as we can.

And can we be sure that RAC will be involved in the participation and selection of the person? Not make the decision, I'm not saying that, but be fully involved in the selection of the person. Because I think they'll know more. With all due respect to your department, I suspect that RAC will know much more about potential people who, you know, have some experience and who are devoted to the concept of recycling. 'Cause no problem will work unless you get somebody who really believes in recycling, not somebody who just does it because it's our duty to do it. COMMISSIONER MOY: We had met with the RAC and we agreed to keep them informed of our process as we moved along, Councilman. I think -- as a point of fact, it was 1275 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. mentioned with the RAC, that from their standpoint, it was important that we get a good manager. We're looking at it from a solid waste management standpoint, and they acknowledged that it was important to get a good manager --

Well, we want a good manager. COMMISSIONER MOY: -- as opposed to simply a recycling enthusiast.

No, I'm saying that you need both. But to have a good manager who doesn't care about recycling is no good. COMMISSIONER MOY: We agree.

That's the way to death. And to have a recycler who's not concerned about management, that's no good, either. You need the combination; you need a person that's really dedicated to recycling, but dedicated to making it work economically. COMMISSIONER MOY: We agree with you.

And I think you can get the best help from the RAC people. Well, the other questions, there are a whole host of them, which, Madame Chair, I'm not 1276 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. going to raise. Could we assume that -- this is the almost the end of February, that by the beginning of April, that's when the budgetary process work would be over that we could -- you would be in such a position? Could we have a promise by you that you would move forward and that it would very likely be by the beginning of April that you would have a recycler? Because maybe it would be better to hold other questions I have until there could be a general discussion with the new person in charge of the recycling program. COMMISSIONER MOY: I would say that's a reasonable target, Councilman, but as you know, it will --

Could you keep my office informed? COMMISSIONER MOY: I certainly will.

I have one last question. How much money is in the City budget for recycling? I haven't been able to find it in any of the material submitted in your statement. 1277 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. COMMISSIONER MOY: of our budget, we have two lines that reflect the recycling program. That's 447,000. And then the administration 3,848,000 -- sorry, that's -- the two of them are together. And so it's $4.3 million.

Of that amount, how much does the State contribute? Or can you furnish that information? COMMISSIONER MOY: That's City funds.

Solely City funds? COMMISSIONER MOY: Yes. And then there are grants.

Now, to that money, is there State money added? COMMISSIONER MOY: There's grants money on. . . On , there's a total of 3.27 million that's carried forward for our grants.

Madame Chair, Councilwoman Fernandez asked if I would yield to her on follow-up questions. I would like to do that.

Before doing that, 1278 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. I would like to acknowledge and welcome fifth-grade students who have joined us in the Caucus from the Pollack School. They're accompanies by their teacher, Miss Tobin. And I want you to know that we certainly acknowledge you. Would you stand to be acknowledged, please? (Pollack School group stands.) (Applause.)

We hope you enjoy your visit. Presently, Council is considering its operating budget. And testifying before us this morning is the Streets Commissioner, Commissioner Moy. So you can stay as long as you'd like because I think we're going to be here a long time today. (Laughter.)

Councilwoman Fernandez.

Just following up on the recycling questions. I think some of the information I requested earlier, would you be sure to include in 1279 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. your data and give us a couple of years, say like from '95 on, not only the tonnage you've collected of different kinds of recycled materials, but then what the value of those materials have been as you've been able to market them. So if you could be sure and give us that information broken out with residential and then --

Commercial.

Well, I guess commercial is done primarily by private haulers. COMMISSIONER MOY: Yes.

Right. COMMISSIONER MOY: That's right.

So primarily in the residential part. The other part of that I wanted to request is, it seems to me the City always needs to set an example before we're asking other businesses to recycle, particularly on the commercial side. And so could you also provide to the Chair a breakdown of the different City buildings and how much recycled materials are being 1280 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. collected and then what's the volume of the rest of the trash so that we can start to get a picture of how well or how well we are or are not doing in terms of our own City buildings. Because, I think, particularly if you want to impress the commercial recycling with stricter enforcement, we in the City have to be setting, I think, probably a better example, but I don't have any of that data. So if you could be sure to get that to the Chair, as we're taking a careful look at the recycling. COMMISSIONER MOY: We'll do that.

Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter.

Thank you, Madame Chair. Commissioner, let's go back to the earlier discussion about the nature of the relationship between the City of Philadelphia and the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation. PENNDOT has a certain amount of, I guess, miles of highway that they are responsible for. Is that correct? 1281 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. COMMISSIONER MOY: That's correct.

Okay. And that's generally referred to as "a State highway," is that right? COMMISSIONER MOY: That's correct.

And can you give us some estimate of the break-out in miles of highway in the City that we are responsible for as compared to PENNDOT? COMMISSIONER MOY: Yeah. We have about 2,000, plus or minus, miles of City streets and about 390 miles of State highway in addition to that. And that includes the limited access.

All right. So we're talking about in the realm of about 15 percent? COMMISSIONER MOY: Yeah, something like that.

Right, 300's about 15 percent of 2,000. COMMISSIONER MOY: Yes.

Okay. And what does it mean for a roadway to be designated as a State highway? And who makes that determination? 1282 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. COMMISSIONER MOY: That's a legislative decision that's made by the State, and there's an act of the legislature -- there are different acts of the legislature over the years that have created different parts of our system in Philadelphia.

So the State legislature makes a determination as to whether or not a particular roadway should be designated as a State highway? COMMISSIONER MOY: That's correct.

And then PENNDOT has a responsibility for that? COMMISSIONER MOY: That's true.

And what does that mean, "responsibility"? COMMISSIONER MOY: Well, depending on the act, because some of them differ. Generally, they're charged with the responsibility for the construction and the repair or the maintenance of their State highways from curb to curb, in simple terms.

And what is the, I guess, advantage for a particular highway being 1283 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. designated as a State highway? COMMISSIONER MOY: Well, in --

If there is one. COMMISSIONER MOY: Well, in terms of fiscal responsibilities, it places upon the State then the responsibilities for construction costs, design, maintenance, and the attendant liability for that; not only for the highway itself but, of course, in many cases, a number of their structures, which are quite expensive.

And how would you characterize the nature of the relationship between the Streets Department for the City of Philadelphia and PENNDOT? Is it an equal relationship? Are we in any way, shape, or form dependent on PENNDOT for certain things? Do we get certain things from them? Are they dependent on certain things from us? What's the nature of the relationship? COMMISSIONER MOY: I think it's more of a partnering arrangement that we have between the two jurisdictions there, where we recognize PENNDOT's responsibilities and they recognize 1284 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. ours. They, to some extent, will use us to get soundings of local sentiments there when they are working within the City. We try to get them to meet the responsibilities of State highways as they traverse the City, representing the citizens.

Do you find PENNDOT to be proactive in taking care of their responsibilities? Or do we have to kind of have to stay after them in certain ways to do what their legislature has dictated that they do? COMMISSIONER MOY: I suppose that's a mixed kind of response there. You -- over the years, a lot of -- it's varied, and I've been around for a few years, as you know. And some of it depends upon the leadership. Generally at the lower levels, we have a very good relationship with the working personnel.

What is the Streets Department of the City of Philadelphia's ability to force PENNDOT to do anything? COMMISSIONER MOY: Well, I don't think we can force them to do anything. I think it's -- 1285 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT.

You have no 3 authority over them? COMMISSIONER MOY: We have no authority over them. It's --

Do you have anything you can do to them? COMMISSIONER MOY: No. 9

Is there anything you can withhold from them? COMMISSIONER MOY: No. 12

Is there anything you cannot do that would subsequently force them to do something else? COMMISSIONER MOY: No. I think it's mostly a persuasive situation. We've been developing relationships of cooperation with them, so we use that -- try to use that effectively.

Does the City get money from PENNDOT? COMMISSIONER MOY: We get money, yes, for gas tax and liquid fuels taxes. They are important to us in that the federal monies that we would receive for some, when there are federal -- there's federal aid that comes through PENNDOT as 1286 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. a pass-through organization.