Committee Hearing, February 24, 1998

1191 COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA RECESSED HEARING BEFORE THE COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Tuesday, February 24, 1998 - - - BILL NO. 980003 - Operating Budget for the Fiscal Year 1999 PRESENT: PRESIDENT JOHN F. STREET, Chairman COUNCILWOMAN AUGUSTA A. CLARK COUNCILMAN DAVID COHEN COUNCILWOMAN ANNA CIBOTTA VERNA COUNCILWOMAN DONNA REED MILLER COUNCILMAN MICHAEL A. NUTTER COUNCILWOMAN HAPPY FERNANDEZ COUNCILWOMAN MARIAN B. TASCO COUNCILMAN FRANK DICICCO COUNCILMAN RICHARD T. MARIANO COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO ANGEL L. ORTIZ - - - VINCENT VARALLO ASSOCIATES, INC. Registered Professional Reporters Eleven Penn Center, Suite 600 Philadelphia, PA 19103 (215) 561-2220 BILL NO. 980003 - OPERATING BUDGET FY 1999 1192 I N D E X DEPARTMENT OF STREETS: Commissioner Lawrence Moy------------------ 1194 Dept. Comm. Clarena Tolson----------------- 1326 DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC PROPERTY AND PUBLIC WORKS Commissioner Andres Perez------------------ 1343 Dept. Comm. Joseph James------------------- 1403 Dept. Comm. Denise Goren------------------- 1413 OFFICE OF FLEET MANAGEMENT Commissioner Riley Harrison---------------- 1431 WATER DEPARTMENT Commissioner Kumar Kishinchand------------- 1439 Dept. Comm. Michael Nadol------------------ 1445 Dept. Comm. Dick Roy----------------------- 1461 Dept. Comm. Denise Garrett----------------- 1485 1193 BILL NO. 980003 - OPERATING BUDGET FY '99 P R O C E E D I N G S

I'd like to have your attention, please. This is a recessed hearing of the Council Committee of the Whole. Today we will hold public hearings, and we will take testimony primarily on the City's operating budget, which is Bill No. 980003, the operating budget for the Fiscal Year 1999. We apologize for our late start. We had a little bit of an emergency. I have a couple of announcements to make. But I would appreciate it very much if all Councilmembers who are in their offices, waiting for these hearings to begin, if you'll please come to these chambers. We'd like very much to get the hearings started. So if you will, we would appreciate it very much if all Members will come to the Council chamber. (Councilmembers join Committee in Council chambers.)

The first department to be considered today is the Streets Department. So if we could have the Commissioner and those with him come forward, we would like to have you 1194 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. summarize your statement and be available for questions. ) COMMISSIONER MOY: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning, Mr. President and Members of City Council, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Lawrence M. Moy, the Commissioner of the Department of Streets, and I am pleased to be here this morning to present some summary testimony on behalf of the Streets Department's Fiscal Year 1999 operating budget. We are requesting a General Fund appropriation of $114,459,072, and an All Funds appropriation of $143,409,739. 7 million from Fiscal Year 1998 obligations primarily because of the reduction in disposal fees. I'd like to briefly highlight some of the goals that have been achieved in our areas in refuse collection, recycling, and street maintenance. 1195 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. Collections. In the area of refuse collection in FY '97, we collected more than 798,000 tons of refuse. And in FY '98, we estimate collecting more than 763,000 tons. In 1999, we project collecting 790,000. Through the acquisition of more efficient vehicles and improved crew productivity, we will accomplish our FY '99 goal with 47 fewer people, while maintaining an on-time collection rate of 95 percent. I'm proud to report that the results of a recent survey conducted by an independent polling firm indicated that 84 percent of the City's residents said the trash was collected on time either always or frequently. In the area of recycling expansion, recycling participation is continuing to expand in the City. For example, in FY '97, 43,863 tons of household refuse was diverted from the waste stream through our recycling program. And we estimate that by the end of FY '98, we will collect 47,238 tons of recyclables, and we project that 49,531 tons will be collected in '99. Recycling's in place in many government 1196 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. buildings, including the Municipal Services Building, the Criminal Justice Center, City Hall, branch libraries, the Police and Fire Administration buildings, and many health centers. In FY '99, we expect to continue to support the Community Partnership Program, which provides overall savings to the City. In the area of street repairs and street maintenance, I'm proud to report that results of our Highway Division's Re-engineering Piloting Plan have been very favorable. And as a result of this plan, in FY '97, we were able to resurface 108 miles of streets, an increase of 145 percent over FY '96. We project resurfacing to increase it to 156 miles per year in FY '98 and FY '99. Our work was monitored by outside consultants, who concluded that our work was both cost-competitive with the private sector and met industry standards in terms of quality. We've also increased the number of ditches restored and the crosswalks line-striped. Street lighting. Concerning street lighting, we are in Year 6 of an 11-year program 1197 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. to replace our obsolete street light fixtures. We expect to replace all of the City's entire 100,000 street lights system by the year 2002. This program is enabling us to see reductions in terms of repair and maintenance. And regarding alley lighting, we have replaced 16,000 lights and expect to complete this program by the end of FY '98. Traffic engineering. I'm glad to report that our OAD Traffic Light Replacement Program is on schedule. And by the end of FY '99, we project that 29,000 lights will be replaced. Combined with the replacement of over 60,000 more efficient yellow and green incandescent lights, we estimate savings of approximately $576,000 annually when the program is completed in FY '99.

In conclusion, the employees of the Department of Streets will continue to work diligently in the delivery of the services to citizens and neighborhoods and to improve the quality of like in our City. We, therefore, request your favorable consideration of this budget request, and I'm available to answer your questions at this time. 1198 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT.

Thank you very much. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Fernandez.

Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning, Mr. Moy. COMMISSIONER MOY: Good morning, Councilwoman.

It is great to see the decline -- or the increase to -- what would you call it, the increased on-time collection of waste and trash. I've certainly felt that in our neighborhood, so I think that's great to keep that on-time collection going up. COMMISSIONER MOY: Thank you.

And I also wanted to thank you for your role in Operation Crosswalk where the Streets Department has really been stepping up its marking of crosswalks, particularly what are called -- are they called the zebra -- COMMISSIONER MOY: Continental crosswalks?

Continental crosswalks. Really particularly on a rainy night, when you're driving, it really makes it so much 1199 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. easier to see major pedestrian crosswalks. And as you know, the numbers of deaths decreased from 60 last year down to -- actually, I think it was incorrect in the five-year plan. I think it's down to 41 for this year. But, again, I want to thank you for your work. And I think as we continue to work on problem spots in different neighborhoods, perhaps in cooperation with the Streets Department working with the police and with neighborhood groups, we could start to deal with some of the spots that are most dangerous for pedestrians. I wanted to take a look, however, at recycling. I know the Recycling Coordinator, Al Dezzi has left. And I was wondering if you could help us get a handle on where we are with recycling in the City. You give the numbers of tons collected, but I was wondering, what is the percentage of total waste that gets collected through the recycling piece versus the waste that has to go to either a landfill or the incinerator. COMMISSIONER MOY: Our diversion rate at the present time for curb recycling is 6.5 1200 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. percent, 6.54 percent.

Is that the residential? COMMISSIONER MOY: Yes.

And what about commercial? COMMISSIONER MOY: Commercial is another percent. 10

And what were 11 the original goals that were set by the State, and 12 then by the Department? 13 COMMISSIONER MOY: It was 25 percent 14 for the commercial. 15

To have been 16 achieved by. . . ? 17 COMMISSIONER MOY: By 1998. 18

By this year? 19 COMMISSIONER MOY: Yes.

So we're a bit behind. COMMISSIONER MOY: Yes, that's right, Councilwoman.

I wonder, what are your plans for probably redoubling, tripling 1201 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. our efforts to start to reach those goals? COMMISSIONER MOY: We have a series of things to review. Certainly the objective of getting back to once-a-week pickup would be very helpful. We are trying to find ways to make that economically feasible. It certainly was a loss to the -- and the confusion which resulted from going to alternate weeks had a significant negative effect on pickup. So we intend to move to replace the Recycling Coordinator. And when that's in place, we will be moving to see how we can get to increasing these numbers in participation.

Have you made a study of what once-a-week collection would cost and how we could start? I think that's what we do need to move toward -- I know I keep -- at my house, I have to keep it on the calendar to remember what Friday it is I should put stuff out. COMMISSIONER MOY: We've done some studies on this. And we are -- our problems are reconciling our operational costs in terms of making this pay. We also know that we will -- we are examining the educational investment that we 1202 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. ought to make. So we are reviewing each of the components to try and get to this kind of a goal. But, I mean it has to be very carefully done in terms of the operational aspects of it, how many vehicles we would have to have to make that work; how many crews we would, indeed, would have to have to make that kind thing of work.

Well, could that -- I'd really be interesting in seeing what that analysis says you would need. Like, if I'm correct, there's no additional money asked for in this budget? COMMISSIONER MOY: That's correct.

So if you wanted to start moving toward that, are you saying you would need to be doing it next year? Or what are your thoughts or plans? COMMISSIONER MOY: If we did something, I don't think we'd be able to engage in a full- scale program this year. I think we would be moving with pilot efforts to prove out what the costs would be to get to once a week. I don't think we can then say, 1203 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. Citywide, it will be once a week this coming year. I think that's -- one of the problems is trying to validate the actual cost of operating.

Well, if you could forward your analysis to date, your estimate of what it would cost in additional trucks and whatever you needed. But also could you also include in that what is the current price you're getting per ton for the various kinds of recycled materials? COMMISSIONER MOY: I'd by glad to do that.

'Cause I noticed in the -- I guess it was in the service goals, that back in '95, you collected 49,000 tons, which is more than what you did this year. My figures show 43,000 in FY '97, 47,000 in '98. But if you go back to '95, you collected more than what you're planning to collect next year. So it feels like we're not moving ahead at the kind of rate we should be. And if it's only 6 percent of the residential waste, it feels like we really have a long ways to go. 1204 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. COMMISSIONER MOY: And I agree with you. I think that some of this is market-driven, clearly, in terms of the commodities. And just as an example, the price of newspaper in 1995 was 45.82 for -- that we received. And our payout last year, in 1998, was -- for this year, for 1998, is $20.56. So the market has completely gone the other way in terms of paper, for example. And that's just one of the commodities. So you're right that --

But that shouldn't affect your collection, should it? COMMISSIONER MOY: It does in the sense of alternatives, of what people have, what they put out. We are just -- we are trying to move with additional -- trying to encourage additional participation. There probably is, let's see. . .

Well, Commissioner, I don't understand how the price that you can get for reselling the collected goods is higher. I would think there would be more people maybe trying to siphon off more valuable 1205 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. goods. I wouldn't think whether people put it out and whether you collect it depends on what the market value of the recycled value is. COMMISSIONER MOY: I think the commingle is where we get -- where we are actually losing it. The other additional point is with the changeover to plastics from glass, I think there's significantly less glass product in our mix now.

What do you mean? COMMISSIONER MOY: The packaging has shifted from glass to plastic in terms of bottling and other products. We are not picking up plastics, and people are shifting in terms of their purchases. They're purchasing plastics instead of glass. So it's just going to be a reduction, then, in the amount of commodity that we pick up. And that's happened in the last couple years.

But didn't you add -- you added a junk mailer or -- COMMISSIONER MOY: Mixed paper.

Mixed paper, 1206 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. which, at least in our house -- maybe we're on too many lists. COMMISSIONER MOY: Yes.

But I have more mixed-paper trash that I do anything else. COMMISSIONER MOY: Right.

But I'm not sure how many people even bother to save it because you're supposed to put it in a bag with handles. And if you don't go to the right grocery store and get bags with handles, it's hard to have something to put it in. You don't want it just flying all over. If I could put it in a plastic bag, it would be easy. But to find a paper bag with handles, I think we got one the first time you all did, but I haven't gotten it delivered to the house once. So you have to go a store that has that kind of paper bag. COMMISSIONER MOY: Yeah, we understand some of the problems in terms of education. And there's a whole series of things of what do to we get our people used to in terms of -- do we get them buckets, is that expected. 1207 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. People can just tie the paper. If they would do that, we will take that paper on that basis. It does not have to be in a paper bag with handles. But we understand the problem of educating -- reeducating folks in a lot of areas, not just the weeks but the habits that they're going to have.

Well, I would think you'd want to look at whether you wanted to get the go-ahead to do a full Citywide every-week collection and really see if your numbers, you know, could significantly jump. Because you could pay for education in one little neighborhood for some pilot, but I don't think that really gets through to the public in the same way as an overall -- I mean, it would be a very clear message: Put out your recycling, put out your trash the same day, all over the City. It wouldn't be blue and green colors. But if we're only at 6 percent and your goal of where you should have been is percent, 24 plus what good recycled goods can get us back in 25 terms of, you know, money that you get back from 1208 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. it, and what we avoid sending to the landfill, you know, I'd like to see some of your numbers on this. And it feels to me like you need a lot of attention on this. COMMISSIONER MOY: We'll be glad to furnish you the numbers.

I had other questions. Why don't I come back, Mr. President.

Thank you very much. The Chair recognizes Councilman Mariano and then Councilmember Rizzo.

Thank you, Mr. President. Commissioner Moy, tires are a main problem in my life, and it don't seem like we can collect these tires fast enough. And if we can invent a way to do something with these tires, we could all be probably pretty wealthy. I realize what you go through, but in 1996, you actually collected 123,606 tires. The goal for '97 is 85,000 but you only collected 71,783 actually. Well, the other 10,000 are in my neighborhood, in my Council district. So what we'll do is, after this, you 1209 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. and I will hop in the truck and we'll go pick 'em up, okay? And, I mean, I'm not trying to be funny here, I'm being serious. It seems like we're not reaching our goal. We have a community plan once a year. Don't we have something, a community pickup where the people can take them someplace? Is there someplace where community groups can do this all year? I mean, there's -- tires are a hot commodity. Tires are everywhere. They're on every corner of my district, up on Cottman Avenue, down on Second Street. Is there somewhere where we can take tires all the time, where people can take tires? Do we have any plan, now that the Recycling Commissioner is gone? I mean, tires should be more important than cans in my world because at least cans, we could crush 'em up with our feet and then, you know, stack 'em somewhere. But tires, what do we do with tires? COMMISSIONER MOY: Councilman, this is a concern of ours also in terms of the number of 1210 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. tires out there. And there are -- there's difficulty in our mixing, our ability to -- we just can't pick up the tires and then mix them into the trash, as you know. And we will look into that question of whether we can establish drops --

But can we have it -- like we had that place in -- now, I'm just guessing this. We closed these incinerators; can't that be a drop-off point? Let alone the problem of what to do with these tires. My problem is to get 'em off the street; your problem is to help me get 'em off the street, then take care of 'em after you have 'em. I mean, it's something we can't do anything with. I'm sure every gas station throws their tires somewhere after they close 'cause I know every mechanic or part-time mechanic that changes tires, if you go to Sears or if you go to Eppie's, you know, they want extra money to take your tires. So until we achieve that part where the tires are worth money and people are actually stealing like aluminum screen doors, we need to 1211 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. find out what to do with tires, okay? COMMISSIONER MOY: All right. We will look into the concept of drops in addition to the tire roundup that we started in January.

In '98 here? COMMISSIONER MOY: Yes.

We'll have something? COMMISSIONER MOY: Yes.

And I have a question about street lighting. You know, it's admirable that we're going to put more street lights out there. And I know why you're going to put more street lights out there, the same as when we put the alley lights after a big fight about that -- not that we're fighting about street lights. But if we put more street lights in, they're more efficient. You won't have to change 'em, they're not as labor-intensive as the lights that are there now. The bulbs will last longer, correct? COMMISSIONER MOY: That's correct.

My problem with 1212 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. street lighting is much like the alley lighting. When they designed the street lighting whenever, in the sixties or fifties, maybe even in the thirties in some neighborhoods, or maybe even earlier than that, the neighborhoods, they were laid out different. There are a lot of places, especially in Juniata Park and a couple other places like Kensington, around Oxford Circle, where they need more street lighting. And every time I call -- you know, since I've been a Councilman for two years, when I was an administrative assistant for Councilman Kenney for two years, and when I was the Chief of Staff for Councilman Mariano -- McElhatton -- I forget his name, I'm sorry -- McElhatton, for eight months, we could never get any street lights. That's it, we don't put any more in. It was like the Book of Celts, you know, you can't get anything done, it's the holy book. Well, we need street lighting. People are coming to us and saying, We need things. Is there any plans in the scope of this 1213 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. new street lighting to not just replace street lighting, but actually add street lighting. Or over the years, we may have kept some data where people think they need street lighting. COMMISSIONER MOY: Yeah. The plan, as you may be aware, has been more toward -- in this group replacement plan, to put in the more efficient lighting, see how effective that is. And when we complete that, we will identify the gaps that would be worthwhile addressing. But right now --

Commissioner, I don't doubt you, but the way things work in municipal government, it's always been my experience that once we do something, we never go back and do it again. So if somebody's telling you that we're going to put street lighting on certain streets in the City and then we're going to come back and say, Well, it's not good enough here, believe me, that's not going to happen. Once we do this -- my son will be sitting in this seat before we do it again. Let's do it once and do it right. Let's do some kind of 1214 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. study to see how efficient -- these engineers that make these lights, they know how many lumens they send, and they know what the area is. So whatever they say, if they say the spread for the light is yards, well, cut it in 7 half. They're lying. It's 10 yards. So if they 8 say we need one light, then we need two lights. 9 Now, in certain areas, you may be able 10 to get away, but it's a security reason. You 11 know, we're all on this quality-of-life issue, and 12 that boat's tipping over 'cause of all of the 13 people that are on board. One of the 14 quality-of-life issues is security. People need 15 to feel safe. 16 You know, I mean, you're the 17 Commissioner, you're here. I hate to lay this all 18 on you but, you know, don't let them fool you and 19 tell you they're going to come back and do 20 anything. Can't we look at this before we start, much like we did the alley light program? 'Cause when I worked for Councilman Kenney, we went out, we asked a lot of people, community activists where were alley lights at. 1215 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. I'm sure you had -- and you had some list over there. I personally pulled the index cards out of Joe Doyle's files and found out where they were, and still some were missed. It's going to happen. Could we do that? COMMISSIONER MOY: We can examine our lighting patterns and we can go over with you our group replacement plan and show you what the results are between your --

Mm-hmm. And I think you should go over it with the other District Councilmen too. Councilman Nutter's experience may not be lumens, but he's very smart, and he'll be able to figure out where the dead areas and the dark areas are in the Fourth District Council, correct, Councilman?

(Inaudible, off mike.)

All District Councilpeople, top people, District Councilpeople. Not to look at the at-large people; they'll have areas too, but. . . 1216 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. 'Cause we know -- I know my district. I don't know anything about Roxborough, nor do I want to at this point. And he doesn't want to know about Juniata, I hope. Okay? Could we do something with all District Councilpeople, let everybody at least send somebody from their district over and say, Look, this is a trouble area in my district. There was one light 80 years ago, and now it's different. COMMISSIONER MOY: We'll be in touch with each Councilman and Councilperson.

Now, if I may go on here, my third and final problem is the trash collection. Up in the top end of my district, around Cottman Avenue, Clarena sent me a very nice letter about the -- we built larger trash trucks, for obvious reasons. So they need less people and we can put more trash in, and the Streets Department people can make less trips. You know, if they could fill a truck up once as opposed to two or three times, that makes sense. But what I have up here is a lot of 1217 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. people are over 70 years old that are used to putting their trash in the back driveways because they keep their trash downstairs, they drag it out. Now, picture this 70-year-old Mrs. Carlin on the 900-block of Granite Street pulling her trash out, 'cause that's the only thing she does the night before her trash day pickup. Now, she's got to drag it down a flight of steps, down to the front. And it may be only 20, 30 feet to us, but to her, it might as well be a hundred yards. A guy was up there with me last week, whose name I forget, at a community meeting. He was very nice, very congenial, but we still don't solve the problems. I have all these streets. And then the people say these questions like, What do they do in South Philly where them big trucks can't fit down the street? And I don't know the answers. There must be some little trucks still around. I mean, we make these decisions to do these things, and I understand why. I mean, I talked to Riley Harrison from Fleet Management. I 1218 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. mean, I know it's a good thing but we have to have these contingency plans in for the people that have been there, 'cause we're like out there in the trenches. Us District Councilpeople and the At-Large Councilpeople, we have to look Mrs. Carlin in the face and say I don't know what they do in South Philly, let me find out for ya, but I'm sure they collect the trash. Now, I can't see her dragging the trash down the end of the block. Can we do something with that? COMMISSIONER MOY: I have a general awareness of the Granite Street situation, and it's not by itself.

No, it's not just Granite. COMMISSIONER MOY: I understand.

It's Marcella and Granite, Bridge, Scattergood, Brill, Sanger, Carver, Levering, Elbridge, Merian Drive, Loretto, Godfrey, Castor, Loretto. And I have signs in every different language: Russian, Italian, Spanish, English. And that's great, but that still doesn't help Mrs. 1219 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. Carlin. I mean, I need to be able to get her trash short of me going up there, and I'm getting too old to do that too. COMMISSIONER MOY: Right. COMMISSIONER MARIANO: And my 16-year-old doesn't want to do it. COMMISSIONER MOY: What we face is the situation, not just the driveways, but in more acute circumstances, the retaining walls in back of some of these homes, which makes it very difficult for our vehicles, whether they're the new vehicles --

Commissioner -- COMMISSIONER MOY: -- or even some of the old vehicles.

Commissioner, I understand that. But they've been collecting trash for all these years. Mrs. Carlin's existence, since she's been married, they've been collecting her trash. And she's 70 years old. Now, all of a sudden, they're saying they don't have a small trash truck. I understand. I mean, I do. When I 1220 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. worked for Jim Kenney, we went through this in Overbrook where they did the big trash truck. When we buy these new trash trucks, don't we like save an old one for these -- where there's areas where there's a great population of seniors, where it could be a problem? I mean, short of not collecting their trash, I don't know this we're going to do with people like this. I mean, this lady cried to me. I couldn't believe somebody was crying to me about trash, but it was as important to her as someone else telling me about their son being shot somewhere else. I mean, it really bothered me. What can we do? Can we get another trash truck, a small one? Instead of buying ten big ones, can we buy eight and then maybe four small ones or three small ones and do these little areas? COMMISSIONER MOY: We can take a look again at not only Granite Street but some of these other streets and see if there's a way to fit a different vehicle into our mix. But, as you know, there's a lot of the high-productivity -- I guess this is a 25-yarder 1221 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. that we're trying to fit down here.

Mm-hmm, I'm sure, but I'm sure somebody younger -- COMMISSIONER MOY: And I think it's 85 percent of our pickup is actually out in front, so we can address your concerns again in --

There might be some other District Councilpeople with the same problem. It happens in my district. Councilman DiCicco, it may happen in South Philly, the large trash trucks, they changed to large ones. How do we get up and down these streets? I mean, this is something that we have to think about when we do this figuring, when we figure out that we're buying the 25-yarders. Now, I understand, but Mrs. Carlton doesn't understand. COMMISSIONER MOY: Okay.

And it's really bad. Okay, that's it, Mr. President. Thank you.

The Chair recognizes Councilmember Rizzo.

Thank you, Mr. 1222 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. President. Commissioner Moy, going back to the tire situation, I don't know if you could explain or maybe someone can. I recall when you purchase a new set of tires that there's a dollar or there's a fee associated with a disposal charge. What are we doing to enforce the improper -- which I consider tires a hazardous waste. Look at what happened at I-95 as a result of the fire there. What kind of enforcement is there? A tire has a serial number. In the event that there's a big pile of tires, has there ever been any investigation on who dumps them to try to track them down? 'Cause it is really a terrible situation. And what is that dollar that we pay when we dispose or buy a new tire? What is it supposed to do if it's called "a disposal fee"? COMMISSIONER MOY: I believe the dollar you talk about, the surcharge, is a State-levied charge, and they do both the collection, enforcement, and I think they utilize the 1223 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. resources, Councilman. In terms of our policing of this, we have not the resources to go into a detail check on the dumping, as you indicated. I mean, we can talk about the --

Well, Commissioner, it really impresses me that you have somebody that counts tires, that you picked up 72,000 of them. You know, that amazes me that you know how many tires that you pick up. I'm really impressed by that. Councilman Mariano mentioned about the people that at one time put their trash in the rear and now to the front. Is that one of the reasons that on of your testimony, you indicate that productivity goals and performance monitoring have lead to increased tonnage and pickups by compactor crews? Could you explain how you've picked up on this increased tonnage? What have you done to accomplish that? COMMISSIONER MOY: There's a series of things that we've done. I think the combination of acquiring up-to-date equipment that was more 1224 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. productive and planning our routes, we have a (unintelligible) routing system which tries to allocate the resources that we have to match the amount of trash and the mix of trash that's generated throughout different parts. So we establish routes and truck and crew deployment sort of based upon that mix. That's part of it. And we've had good management standards in terms of trying to work on productivity from the work force. Each of these things have helped to increase our general productivity.

Commissioner, my last question is the -- and I think it is going to be confusing for the foreseeable future. The responsibility of the maintenance of the County of Philadelphia's roadways, whether it be PENNDOT, whether it be the Streets Department, whether it be SEPTA. Could you explain the relationship between the Philadelphia Streets Department and PENNDOT? Because it appears that there's a line in the sand where it's difficult for the Streets Department to get PENNDOT to respond, and I think 1225 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. you know the specific project that I have an interest in, and I don't want to be specific today. But it appears that we don't have the folks or the relationship within our government to work with PENNDOT when we have an obviously very dangerous situation that you don't -- you recognize that it is not a good situation, where you don't want to spend the money to fix and then you throw the ball back at PENNDOT and you say, Well, it's not our responsibility, it's PENNDOT's. At what point are you going to stamp your foot and say to PENNDOT, We're not going to tolerate you allowing these roadways to get in the condition that they're in and endanger the citizens that drive these roadways every day. I'd like to know about the relationship that we have with PENNDOT to appeal to them for basic services. COMMISSIONER MOY: We generally enjoy a very favorable relationship, a good relationship with PENNDOT and -- both on a professional basis. But when we get into the costing, they obviously have decisions to make with respect to funding 1226 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. high-cost items. We've written -- in the instance that you're talking about, we've written to PENNDOT. I will make a call also to see whether we can get their support to get the kind work you're talking about.

But, Commissioner, I'm talking about miles and miles of roadway that I am honestly tired of telling the constituents that call me that it's a problem that is not a Streets Department problem but it is a State problem. Do we have a mechanism within the Streets Department? Do we have a person that works directly with PENNDOT to say, Hey, guys, you just can't leave this condition in this way because it's damaging vehicles, it's causing an embarrassment to the Administration. Do we have a person, a liaison, between PENNDOT and the Streets Department? COMMISSIONER MOY: We have a whole series of folks that work on a daily basis with PENNDOT. And depending upon, you know, the situation, the street or roads or highways that 1227 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. you're talking about, we can impart that kind of message to them. They will -- they are -- they generally respond to us, especially on routine maintenance. Now, if we're talking about -- if you can give me an example of some specific things that --

Well, you know the one I'm -- again, I don't want to publicly discuss the issue that -- you know exactly what I'm talking about. COMMISSIONER MOY: I understand.

But, Commissioner, my point is, when they say no to you, do your people just say, Oh, okay, you know, we'll accept no. Do we ever get our back up and take 'em on and say, We want this fixed and it's your responsibility to fix it? COMMISSIONER MOY: We stay after PENNDOT. It's one of those things where we do not get into -- we try not to get into confrontational situations with PENNDOT where we can avoid it, and we're usually effective in getting them to come around. 1228 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. Now, we can talk to them again about the specific situation you raised.

Again, beyond that specific situation, I think the relationship with PENNDOT -- between Streets and PENNDOT, to me, it seems that we tolerate a little bit more than we should because they owe the citizens of Philadelphia more in the quality of roadways that they're responsible for maintaining. I think that sometimes we're too nice guys when it comes to dealing with PENNDOT. Thank you, Commissioner. Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Commissioner, I just want to make sure that I understand this. I've heard little pieces of this discussion over the years. It is my understanding that the City of Philadelphia has contractual arrangements with PENNDOT to do some of this, some or all of this work, and that PENNDOT doesn't actually do the work but that we do the work and then bill 24 PENNDOT. Is that true? COMMISSIONER MOY: No, that -- well, 1229 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. that's in a very limited area, Councilman. The contract that we have is for snow removal on highways, for the non-limited access portion of the State highways. So we do have a contract for that. But then all of the remaining responsibilities for curb and for street maintenance between curb lines remains the State's responsibility.

And does the State send out crews in order to do that work? COMMISSIONER MOY: That's correct.

And it's your position that the State doesn't have any responsibility to do the work; and if a request for work comes in and/or if the Streets Department identifies work that needs to be done, you'll call them and ask them to do the work? COMMISSIONER MOY: That's correct, that's what -- in other words, it's their responsibility, and we call it to their attention. And we do the same thing with SEPTA. Now, we work out relationships so that if there's an emergency situation, we do try to 1230 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. work out solutions between us, that if we can get to something quicker --

I don't understand what that means. COMMISSIONER MOY: If there were a cave-in or something of an emergency situation, we've arranged for -- we'll barricade something off until PENNDOT can get there. If it's more accessible to us, a particular site, if it's on a State highway --

Who's liable for accidents that occur on streets that are not properly maintained within the City of Philadelphia if it can be determined that there is negligence on the part of any governmental entity? Is it PENNDOT or is it the City? COMMISSIONER MOY: Well, I think the lawyers will sue us all. And I think that they will --

We're good at that. COMMISSIONER MOY: They will go after the design elements, they'll go after the construction elements, and they'll go after the maintenance elements of that street. 1231 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. If it's a State highway, they will sue both the State and the City, and we will have our lawyers just, you know, take their -- go into their opposite corners on that.

Who pays? COMMISSIONER MOY: That depends. I think we have been successful on a number of State highways to have the State being held responsible. And we --

So you're telling us it is possible for it to be a State highway, we have notified the State of certain dangerous conditions that exist on the highway, an accident can occur, injury can result, liability can be determined, and then the City can be held responsible for the work to have been done on a State highway? COMMISSIONER MOY: Yeah, it's a little -- it gets a little more gray there as we move into the areas --

Well, tell me how it gets a little more gray. COMMISSIONER MOY: If it gets into traffic controls and if it gets into the original 1232 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. design of some of these roadways. If it's pure maintenance, it more than likely go to the State. I mean, if our lawyers can convince the judge or the jury that there is clear evidence that this was simply a pothole that occurred on the State highway, it would be the State's responsibility, but they're usually --

Well, I had this occasion. I'm traveling -- this is a personal situation, I was traveling south on 15th Street, probably a City street. COMMISSIONER MOY: Stay Highway.

Is it a -- State Highway? COMMISSIONER MOY: Yes.

I'm traveling south on 15th Street. All of a sudden, boom. I'm in my old truck, and there had to be something more than just a pothole. It was a sink hole. It had to be 18 inches, right? And the whole right front end the truck -- I mean, the tire rods break, the whole -- everything. You know what I'm talking about? COMMISSIONER MOY: Yes. 1233 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT.

You couldn't drive the truck, you absolutely could not drive the truck. There's no question it was in the middle of the block. It wasn't a question about traffic lights. And the City could be held responsible for failure in a case like that? Now, I just went about my business. You know, I couldn't get into suing the City, right? But you're telling me that the City could be held responsible for that? COMMISSIONER MOY: Again, it could be -- it would depend on circumstances. If there were a utility that --

I just gave you the circumstances. COMMISSIONER MOY: Well, the circumstances, if there were a utility below that caused that problem, an attorney could make that point and argue that if it were a City-owned utility that was causal in causing the hole, then PENNDOT would certainly make that case against us. So it's hard to give an absolute black-and-white answer here. All State highways 1234 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. are clearly the State's responsibility 100 percent of the time in terms of a court of law.

Well, what if any notice do we send to the State or anyone else in order to minimize counter-liability that we might have? I mean, do we do anything like that? COMMISSIONER MOY: We have -- when it's called to our attention, our different district people will notify them in writing. They'll call them on the phone and then they will also notice them in writing of a street defect on a State highway.

Did we ever have contracts between the City of Philadelphia and PENNDOT which provided that we do this kind of maintenance work on State highways and get reimbursed from the State? COMMISSIONER MOY: No, not to my knowledge. I'm not aware of that.

Mr. President, I'd like to get back to that.

Councilman Rizzo.

Mr. President, this is a perfect example of probably spending more 1235 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. money, taxpayers' money, on lawyers than it would have cost to fix the hole in the first place. And we should probably utilize the idea that you said, we should just take care of the problem in the first place and then bill back somehow the State. Because the State has how many days, Commissioner, after the Streets Department notifies them to fix an obstruction? Two days, three days? COMMISSIONER MOY: Well, that's their responsibility. Their response time is up to them, I think.

But, Commissioner, not just the President of City Council's car, but five other cars got damaged that again have the same attitude that the President had, that you're not going to fight City Hall, you're not going to fight PENNDOT, and there's some hard-working person that has to go out and spend 2, $300 or more on repair of the vehicle, that pair of shoes or whatever for their kids. I think it's irresponsible that we would allow this and, you know, I've been on this thing with these utility ditches, the way PECO, 1236 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. the gas company leave the streets for the citizens to negotiate them. And I think that what we need to do is either get a little, you know, tougher with PENNDOT. Because I report a problem on a Monday and I ride by that location on Friday, and the problem is still there. And I call back, and we're waiting for PENNDOT when I see ten hubcaps on the side of the roadway that someone encountered and damaged their vehicle. And it really bothers me when I see people's vehicles damaged. Or an accident could occur in avoiding the hole, losing control of the vehicle, having a head-on collision. I think we've got to get tough with PENNDOT. And I'd be absolutely willing to work with you on that. And you basically asked me if I had any friends in PENNDOT to let you know. And, I tell you, we need to do something about this 'cause it's terrible. Thank you, Mr. President.

Thank you very much. Commissioner, I'd like for you to contact the Law Department and see if you can get 1237 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. for us some analysis of the potential liability, past and present, for hazardous conditions that exist on the highways over which there might be some dispute as to who's responsible. This is more than just a little bit of a problem for us, and I'd like for you to get us some information and make it available to the Chair so that it can be distributed to all Members of Council. Now, at this time, I would like to make an announcement. This is relevant to all of the City Operating Departments scheduled to give testimony today. At 1:30 today, this Committee will stand in recess. At 2 o'clock, there will be an emergency briefing in the Mayor's conference room on gas deregulation. We were originally scheduled to have this briefing, I think, on Thursday morning. But as some Members know, I think Councilwoman Tasco knows, those folks who are involved in this will be in Harrisburg on Thursday as a part of this whole negotiation process. And so they won't be able to give a briefing to us as scheduled on Thursday. And they 1238 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. are supposed to go to Harrisburg tomorrow, and most of them will be staying over. We think that it is important that Councilmembers get a briefing as soon as possible. This gas deregulation stuff is moving very, very fast. So what we would like to do is recess these hearings at 1:30, at 2 o'clock convene in the Mayor's cabinet room, have our briefing, the briefing we originally planned to have on Thursday, have it today. And then after that briefing, resume our public hearings. This stuff is just really, really zipping along, and I don't think we can afford to be in a position where the thing that we plan to have on Thursday doesn't happen, and then we have to wait until next week. Councilmembers really need to be -- I mean, a lot of it is still up in the air. It's a lot of questions, but you still need to know at least what the questions are, even if there are no 23 answers to those questions. So we will be recessing at 1:30, we will convene at 2 o'clock in the Mayor's 1239 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. conference room, we will have a briefing. The briefing that was originally scheduled for Thursday, we will do it today. And then after that briefing, we will come back and finish up our public hearings for today. Does anybody have any questions about that? (No questions at this time.)

Notices have been sent to all your offices. I have notices here, but we really do need -- we can't afford to keep putting this thing off, because the schedule of these various negotiations and meetings in Harrisburg, you know, runs over till is Thursday. Any questions about that? (No questions at this time.)

Most of us plan to be here anyway, so we'll recess at 1:30, be down in the Mayor's Office at 2 to get the basic briefing done, and then we'll come back and then we'll finish up our public testimony for today. Does any Councilmember have any question about that? (No questions at this time.) 1240 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT.

Thank you very much. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Tasco.

Good morning. Good morning, Mr. Moy. COMMISSIONER MOY: Good morning, Councilwoman Tasco.

I guess you think I'm going to ask you about alley lights, right? I understand I'm supposed to get an answer today or in writing regarding the alley lights in the Ninth District. COMMISSIONER MOY: Yes. I thought our street lighting engineer had been in touch with your office to try and work on the specifics of the driveways that you were concerned about.

I guess in addition -- I'm concerned about the specifics in my district, but what bothers me more is the fact that we vote on a budget item, a capital budget item, under the assumption that the funds allocated are going to cover what we vote on. And we were told whenever we voted on the whole alley lighting project, that the money would be appropriated for alley lights and the 1241 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. replacement of alley lights throughout the City. But then when we get to my district -- and I don't know about other districts -- we are told that the money is no longer there. And that is what I have the problem with. Because if you're not going to do the entire City, as we vote on it, then I need to know that at the point when you are requesting funds for the improvement. And I think it's unfair to us to ask us to vote on money and tell us that it's going to cover one thing; and then later on, during the process, there are no funds. And that's what I have the problem with. COMMISSIONER MOY: I would agree with you, Councilwoman. I did not think that we had a problem with insufficient funds for that program. And if we have a specific driveway or two, or if there are ones that we've missed on, we'd be happy to go over them. And that's what I thought our street lighting engineer was prepared to do with your office. I don't think it's a wide -- I didn't think it was a widespread problem. 1242 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT.

Well, I don't know if it's widespread, but it's widespread within the Ninth Councilmatic District, which is pretty big. It includes about six wards and about 155,000 people, I don't know how many alleys. But that is a programmatic issue that I have a real problem with. COMMISSIONER MOY: We can be in touch again with your office.

The other thing I have a concern about is the time it takes when we make requests for street paving, why it takes so long. Or why when we ask for traffic lights and they don't get installed. And I requested a traffic light at 66th and Tenth Avenue, and it was rejected. Yet, it was installed when Councilwoman Fernandez asked for it. Could you tell me why that happened? Sounds like the street signs. COMMISSIONER MOY: I'm not familiar offhand with that specific intersection, Councilwoman.

I think there are some serious monitoring of your staff that needs 1243 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. to take place. Because while you may be committed to doing one thing, your staff may not be. In terms of my office, when we get things done, it doesn't seem to be that it follows through on your commitment. And I have a serious problem with that. COMMISSIONER MOY: We will check that situation out and report it to you.

That's pretty much where it is. I have some requests here, and I won't belabor the record with those requests, but I'm going to send them to you one more time. COMMISSIONER MOY: All right.

And I expect something to happen with them because I am representing the people in the Ninth Councilmatic District. And they live there, they know what goes on there, and they expect us as City officials to provide the services to them. And these are not big requests; they are very small requests. And we'll do it one more time. 1244 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. COMMISSIONER MOY: All right.

And if not, we'll have to take some other kind of action. COMMISSIONER MOY: All right. We'll be happy to discuss it. (Councilman Verna takes over the Chair.)

Councilwoman Tasco, are you finished with your questioning?

Oh, yes. I'm sorry.

Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman DiCicco.

Thank you, Madame Chair. Good morning, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER MOY: Good morning, Councilman.

I arrived here a little bit late this morning so if I ask something that's already been answered, just tell me it's already been answered, and I'll go back to the record. One of my questions has to do with the 1245 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. number of municipal buildings that are a part of the recycling program. Are all of the Municipal Department buildings participating in that program? COMMISSIONER MOY: We've concentrated to date on the major buildings, Councilman, and I think next year we're going to concentrate on some of the district facilities after the police stations, fire stations, recreation centers, and libraries.

When that material is collected, who is collecting that? Who is collecting the recycled material? COMMISSIONER MOY: With the exception of in the MSB and the Criminal Justice Center, I think they have their own pickup there, the Streets Department picks up the rest of it.

When you say "their own pickup," is that privately? COMMISSIONER MOY: It's private.

In the Municipal Services Building -- COMMISSIONER MOY: And the Criminal Justice Center. 1246 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT.

And the CJC. COMMISSIONER MOY: It's private.

They're privately -- they have a private hauler or whatever? COMMISSIONER MOY: Yes.

And the other buildings are done by the Sanitation Department. COMMISSIONER MOY: That's correct.

What happens to the materials that are collected by the Philadelphia Sanitation Department? Is that process done in the normal disposal manner, or is that being sold? COMMISSIONER MOY: It's handled the way that the other recycling is handled, you know, through the regular curb-side collection for residential.

All right, so -- again, I got here a little bit late, but is that material sold? Or is that just -- COMMISSIONER MOY: Some of it is sold and some of it, we actually pay for to get rid of, depending on the price of the commodity.

That's what I 1247 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. wanted to get to. There is a market out there for recyclable materials. Wouldn't it be economically prudent for us to have all of the recyclable materials collected by someone who will pay us for our waste, rather than us pay our sanitation employees, our Department's budget, to pick up materials and pay somebody else to take something that we could normally receive money for? COMMISSIONER MOY: We'd be glad to do that if the economics went that way. I think there's, you know, obviously other costs that you incur here, the collections costs for us. And I think there would be collection costs for privates. I mean, when you look at the partnerships where there are --

Why are we -- why are we engaged in a contract, I assume, with CJC and the Municipal Services Building for the collection of waste materials that are recyclable materials that have a value to them and not for the other departments? COMMISSIONER MOY: I think it has to do 1248 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. with the contracts, existing contracts, that they had in the buildings, the Public Property had for picking up trash. And they basically considered this a part of their contract.

My point, again, is, though, why, if we have a contract, why do we have those contracts? Why wouldn't we have a contract with a company or companies that will pay us for our waste materials? COMMISSIONER MOY: Well, they're not -- I don't think there's a lot of people paying us. You know, I think it's limited. For example, in the paper, we're now paying. We were collecting a few years ago when the market was high in terms of paper, but we're now paying $20 or so a ton for them to take that from us.

So people are not paying for paper today? COMMISSIONER MOY: No. I mean, it's not enough -- the economics just aren't there for us.

But if we had a waste disposal company that would provide the 1249 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. service, picking up more materials, wouldn't that make our Department run more efficiently? Couldn't we use those resources that we are -- our City resources for other things, for other waste collections? And wouldn't that save us some money in the process? COMMISSIONER MOY: We could explore that, I think. We have the problem of providing curb-side collections at every household, which is mandated by the State. But we could certainly look into your suggestion of seeing whether there's a different way to --

I'm not an expert at this, but I thought there was a market out there for our product, or anyone's product for that matter, for recyclable materials. And I'm wondering why all the various buildings, the municipal buildings, aren't participating in a recycling program. I mean, we're supposed to be setting an example. In fact, I want to speak to the Council President. I think it would be nice if we had some recycling buckets in this chamber. I know 1250 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. our waste gets all mixed up in here. But if we're asking people to participate in a recycling program, individual citizens, why is government -- I think we should be setting the example. And if we are not willing to take that initiative, how can we expect the average person to hold on to their trash weekly and then put it out on the curb? Which I encourage, by the way, and I support. And when we have -- obviously, I think, we probably have a daily pickup in our municipal buildings. We should be putting that stuff out every day. And I remember when I was a court administrator of Traffic Court, we had our own program up there where we collected the cans and paper. And the money -- we had a private company that would pay us for our materials. And that money went into a holiday party campaign. We would have a party down at Palumbo's. But, I mean, you know, that's what we did with the money, but people were willing to pay us for our waste. 1251 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. I'm kind of lost that the City Streets Department isn't looking into those areas. COMMISSIONER MOY: We have looked at that, Councilman, and the market has changed significantly in two years. Now, we can go over it again and go over it --

Well, I know that the price of paper sometimes is high and sometimes is lower, as with any other material, depending on the demand. But I would think that the resources that -- again, not to be redundant -- but the resources that we're using, if we're using Sanitation Department employees to pick up this material and then we have to pay for it to be taken away, I just think it would be a lot more efficient for us to contract with a private -- and I'm not just into privatization, but we're getting rid of it. And maybe we can get money for it. And if we don't get money for it, at least somebody else is picking it up and taking it away. I mean, I think it's like kind of double work here. It's costing us a lot more 1252 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. money than we should be spending. The other question I have is with the commercial recycling. Where are we with commercial recycling? And is there any effort to educate the public on what their responsibility is in regards to recycling in the commercial sector? I mean, I know many of my friends who have restaurants and delis and all, and no one recycles anything. They don't recycle even on the recycling day. I haven't seen this, at least I haven't seen it in my district. COMMISSIONER MOY: Yeah, we have commercial regulations for recycling, which we've tried to promote and get out into the public arena over the last couple of years. And we've had limited success with respect to the responses. Each business is supposed to have a compliance plan. We have in addition to that, going out in the -- in addition to having an organization that has been promoting this and educating folks as to the benefits of it in their different companies, we've gone ahead in business corridors and have used our sweep people to educate the 1253 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. businesses along specific corridors.

Could you explain briefly how the educational process is working. How are we educating the guy who has the luncheonette on the corner? Does someone physically go out and tell him or her? COMMISSIONER MOY: We have people that do go out and visit that owner, and they counsel them on what the benefits are and the law and the regulations.

How many people do you have going out with that information Citywide? COMMISSIONER MOY: There are three people going out.

There are just three people going out to all the commercial establishments in the City of Philadelphia -- COMMISSIONER MOY: Well, they're going out --

-- telling them what they need to do? COMMISSIONER MOY: They're going out to specific corridors. 1254 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. Now, in addition to that, we have promoted -- and we are going to put it on the Web there, and we use The Business Journal and we use other means to acquaint people with their responsibilities.

Have we used those yet? COMMISSIONER MOY: No, we're -- we've used The Business Journal, and we're planning on actually going on the Web soon.

Well, I don't know if the little mom-and-pop store gets The Business Journal is my point. I think we have more of those types of operations in the City than we probably have -- and the bigger companies have a program of their own because it becomes cost- efficient for them to do their own recycling and stuff. I think we need to get it out into the community. And that's where it is. And I've been told -- and I don't know whether this is correct or not -- that we may have lost $200,000 in a State grant for a media blitz to educate people. Is that true? And if it is, I'm 1255 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. wondering why we lost that grant. COMMISSIONER MOY: I'm told that this is a problem we have had with the State in terms of the mechanics of some ADA language that they required in terms of our contract. And we are discussing with the State our getting that funding.

So we did lose the 200,000? COMMISSIONER MOY: Well, it's still under discussion with the State.

What needs to be done? I mean, $200,000 would go a long way in educating -- and with all due respect to the three people that with we have combing the City, I think the 200,000 is desperately needed. Although I may not want to stay here for seven terms, but by the time my seventh term ended, I would assume that those three people will still not have reached all of the commercial properties in the City of Philadelphia. Three people's just not enough. And, again, it disheartens me 'cause I know what I do as an individual when it comes to 1256 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. recycling. And I see the corner grocer, the corner luncheonette just throwing their trash in with regular trash. It's just -- I don't know, I don't think we're getting anywhere with that. And I don't mean that to be critical; I'm just offering some suggestions. And if I can be of any assistance with the State, I'd be more than happy to help you with that. COMMISSIONER MOY: We appreciate that.

But, excuse me, did we or did we not lose the State plan? COMMISSIONER MOY: We are under discussion with the State about that. Because there's a difference in their view of the --

We lost it. COMMISSIONER MOY: -- of the contract requirements.

And who in your office is dealing with that issue? COMMISSIONER MOY: Diane Lyness, in our Recycling Office.

I didn't mean to interrupt you, Councilman.

That's all right. 1257 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. You're the Chair, you're entitled to do that.

Thank you.

The only other question I have is: Do we have any plans for adding to the enforcement personnel that we have in the Sweep Program and whatever? COMMISSIONER MOY: We've added another supervisor and another employee to that.

And that will give us a grand total of. . . ? COMMISSIONER MOY: A total of 22.

I have no further questions at this time, Madame Chair.

Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Miller.

Thank you, Madame Chair. Good morning, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER MOY: Good morning, Councilwoman.

I first want to thank you for your help and the cooperation of your staff in the two years that I've been here. COMMISSIONER MOY: Thank you. 1258 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT.

I have a couple questions. Most of them are service-oriented questions. The Germantown Special Services District is finally starting to make a difference, and shoppers are using trash baskets. It's my understanding that they need more baskets along Chelten Avenue. And, you know, they have a new contractor, a new person that does the cleaning, and they've increased the volume of trash and they need to be able to work out where the trash will be picked up on a daily basis. COMMISSIONER MOY: We'll be happy to evaluate that and work with Germantown and Chelten.

Good, okay. And, again, around trash cans, what is the Adopt-a-Basket Program? And are those cans only placed at bus stops, at corners that have bus stops? And what is the responsibility of the adoptee or the owner of the property or whomever? COMMISSIONER MOY: Let me ask Deputy 1259 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. Commissioner Clarena Tolson to respond to that. DEPT. COMM. TOLSON: The Adopt-a- Basket Program allows for the placement of baskets in noncommercial corridors. The City places cans, the wire mesh baskets on the commercial corridors. There are also places where citizens are concerned about their property because of schools, bus stops, or other pedestrians that might be there that dispose of litter. And people are willing to take responsibility for a litter basket if they were to have a one. And the Adopt-a-Basket Program allows them to get a basket from us, and then they are responsible for changing the liners and putting it out for on trash day when we collect it.

Okay, thank you. I want to ask you some questions around Street repaving. I think when you were here before, we met, and there was a schedule now of street repaving. Was it seven years instead of fifteen? Or streets are repaved how many years apart? COMMISSIONER MOY: Actually, it depends upon the nature of the street, but some of your 1260 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. sort of primary, heavily-used streets and State highways might be in that seven-year life cycle. The sort of residential type street that's low usage might be into the 15-, maybe even 20-year range in terms of resurfacing cycles.

When an area is designated for repaving, can you help me understand why they'll repave everything around towards the worst blocks of the area and won't do those? And I just can't figure that one out. COMMISSIONER MOY: Well, the way that the folks -- the way this is done, usually there are six highway districts in the City, and the District Engineer for that district has a good awareness of their needs. And they have a plan to move more or less geographically within their district. I mean, they try to respond to requests that they have from folks such as yourself and other individuals and the general quality of the street itself, knowing their inventory of streets. And they try and cluster these into contracts, or if the City forces are doing them, cluster those streets in groupings that make sense 1261 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. to them, and they kind of rotate them through their district over a period of years. I don't know why they would miss -- if there are in fact streets that are --

Well, it was actually in the cluster, it was right in the middle of the cluster, which is why I can't figure out why they didn't do -- COMMISSIONER MOY: Well, we would just have to look at those streets and see, you know, what the reason was. There are sometimes utilities -- one of the things that happens with these planning clusters is they actually pass them through the utilities first before they schedule them and ask them to speak now or forever hold your peace in terms of their coming in there. Now, if the utilities say they're going to be coming in there very shortly, we may in fact hold back the couple of streets out of that cluster until the utility finishes their work.

Okay. So we just need to do a memo or something to bring those streets to the attention of your Department? 1262 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. COMMISSIONER MOY: We'll be looking at those, yes.

All right, thank you. Also, can we talk again about Chelten Avenue? Chelten Avenue, pretty much from Wayne up to Chew, and I may have missed a block or two, it feels like a roller coaster when you're going down it. You know, it's bumpy, it leans. And I know people for years have been talking about the replacement or repaving of Chelten, not just the repaving, I guess leveling it out because it seems like there's a hill next to the curb and then it comes in or goes down. What is the status of redoing Chelten Avenue through the business district? COMMISSIONER MOY: Yeah, I understand what you're talking about. There's a lot of shelving and rutting on that street. That's federal aid -- that happens to be a federal aid street for us. It done -- the last time it was done was quite a number of years ago. I would have to ask our folks where this is in the cycle of federal aid programs for us. 1263 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT.

Can you get back to us on that because -- COMMISSIONER MOY: We will.

-- we get those questions all the time about the needs on Chelten Avenue. COMMISSIONER MOY: Right.

Also, as you know, the constituents love the fact that they have all these wonderful new streets, but then it creates another problem where people like to speed down these, you know, new highways. So I go to community meetings, and many times people bring up the issue of can they get speed bumps? And then they'll say, Oh, I know there's a neighborhood in Philadelphia that has speed bumps. Are any Philadelphia streets -- does any Philadelphia streets have speed bumps? COMMISSIONER MOY: We have no legally installed speed bumps in the City, not on the City streets.

Okay. COMMISSIONER MOY: There may be some on 1264 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. driveways or parking lots.

Okay. Is my time almost up?

You can continue, you might as well finish. You can finish your question.

Okay, good. The other thing I wanted to talk about this morning are the school flashing lights. We get lots and lots and lots of requests regarding school flashing lights. It's my understanding -- I think the notice from you said we get two in each Council district, and someone told me it was actually four. Can you tell me what is the maximum amount per City Council district on school flashing lights per year? COMMISSIONER MOY: Actually, what has happened is that since the institution of the legislation there, we've had two contracts, Councilwoman, in which we had a number of requests that were made -- applications that were made from schools throughout the City. The first contract was approximately 1265 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. $250,000 or so, I think. And we allocated -- we allocated resources in accordance with the applications that we had. The first year, it was very irregular in terms of the numbers that we had and where they were located. The second contract, I think, is coming out very shortly. And that's in the same neighborhood, I think, in terms of costs. There's not a fixed number or an amount. I think it varies by the location of the school and what the streets are and how many signals you'll need as to the cost. So you probably have guidelines as to how much it would cost or how many you could get in terms of a district.

Okay. Thank you, Commissioner.

Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Cohen.

Thank you, Madame Chair. On the last page of the statement that was distributed on behalf of the Streets Department, on the service level impacts, the very 1266 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. last page, down to around line or 8, where it says "materials recycled." All the way on the left, it says "materials recycled," then it goes on to tons recycled. And I call your attention the column which says "Fiscal Year 1997 Original Goal" and then the next column which says "Actual." And in the goal for 1997, it was 51,050 tons, and the actual amount apparently collected was 43,865, some 7,000, a little more than 7,000 under. Could you tell us why? COMMISSIONER MOY: I think there could be at least two contributing factors to that. And the one is that I think scavenging at that time was at a higher level, much higher level, partly because of the value of the materials. Scavengers were going out and picking some of the recycled material off. And, two, I think it was also a -- that may have been the bad winter that we had. After that, the weather may have contributed to some subsequent recycling behavior.

Forgive my lawyerly instincts, but you're telling me what could have 1267 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. been. And I could add to the two you gave me maybe a dozen other could-have-been's. But what I'd like to know is what actually happened that year. Scavengers, we know, always begin to operate as soon as the market value of recyclables go up. It become productive, apparently, and economical for scavengers to enter into the field. So I assume we have some methods to try and deal with that. But what I'd like to know is what actually happened, not what might have been the reasons for it. Has anybody really dug into that? COMMISSIONER MOY: We can do an analysis and get back to you on that.

The reason I'm asking is, historically, the Streets Department has always been opposed to recycling, always. Since the days I first came into City Council in 1968, every obstacle that could be thought of to prevent the beginning of recycling was used. The Streets Department thought it was some foolishness on behalf of some liberals or 1268 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. some community people or some recycling nuts or whatever -- however the phrases were used. And that's the reason when Council first enacted legislation requiring recycling, we tried to put it into the Mayor's Office, then finally compromised and put it into the Managing Director's Office. And then when some of us in Council became busy with some other items that were also very important, it managed to get into the Streets Department where it has been lingering along. And then with the leaving of Al Dezzi, with whom I had many differences, but he also was the most enthusiastic recycling supporter I've ever known in government. He came in, he took hold, and he tried to wend his way throughout, you know, the difficulties in the Streets Department. Because the core of membership in the Streets Department -- I don't speak ill of any of them individually. They were raised at a time when recycling was a just fad, and they thought it would just be a waste of money. And I assume that's why they always opposed it. But with Al Dezzi's loss now, I'm 1269 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. fearful that the recycling program is just going to die a very natural death. And each year for one reason or another, there's going to be a decline in the amount recycled. We've understood for years that we were going to go back to the once-a-week recycling. We thought there was going to be some system for the recycling, the capture of plastics material. None of that has happened. Who -- who -- how long has Dezzi been gone now? COMMISSIONER MOY: I'd say about a month.

And who's taking his place? COMMISSIONER MOY: We are -- actually, as soon as the budget hearings are over, we are going to address the filling of Al Dezzi's position.

You're going to do what? COMMISSIONER MOY: We're going to address the filling of Al Dezzi's position.

You can't do two 1270 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. things at one time? (Laughter.)

It reminds me of a famous president that. . . You know, the Streets Department does a lot of things at one time, don't you? COMMISSIONER MOY: Yes, we do.

Well, it seems to me that if there was any interest in recycling, you would be at it and you would go after somebody who's a real recycling enthusiast, you know, who believes in the concept. COMMISSIONER MOY: We have met with the RAC, and we have talked about this. We just have not gone out into the open market for this as of yet. But we are going to actively address it, and we have told the RAC that.

Well, I can tell you that the RAC -- that's the Recycling Advisory Committee? COMMISSIONER MOY: Yes.

The Recycling Advisory Committee has always been quite unhappy with the way it's been treated in the Streets 1271 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. Department. But specifically now, they realize how endangered the whole recycling program is. It seems to me that it ought to become a very high priority. Then the matters that Councilman DiCicco raised could be dealt with very effectively. 'Cause on the surface, it would appear that he's right, we're paying double. We collect a lot of recycled materials, and then we pay somebody else to come in and finally remove it from the City. I guess that's when the market comes down? And when the market is up, I guess they still come and remove it from the City, but they pay us? COMMISSIONER MOY: That's right.

And instead of we giving them the check, they give us a check? COMMISSIONER MOY: That's correct.

Right? COMMISSIONER MOY: That's correct.

I'm just terribly concerned about -- and are you going to look nationally or locally? How are you going to find 1272 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. somebody? COMMISSIONER MOY: We believe there would be local folks around that we can explore, and we have dealt with the RAC group who has agreed to help us as we look for capable people.

All right. It's a very troublesome thing. Incidently, Councilman DiCicco, my study indicates that the problem of lost State funds might be five times -- I heard you mention a figure of 200,000. My understanding is that over the last year or two, the figure of lost State funds, because of the late filing of applications or the incomplete filing of applications or the errors made in the filing of applications, cost the City about a million dollars, a little over that figure. Now, would there be -- I don't want to take the time of the budget hearing to go into all of the details because I have about three pages of questions on recycling. Would there be an opportunity for you to -- well, I -- as soon as you got a recycler in 1273 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. charge, we would like very much to get involved. A number of us in Council are very much interested in the health and vitality of the recycling program. Do we have to put in new legislation to take it out of the Streets Department if you don't want that program? You know, if your department made it clear to us, we could set up either a separate department or put it back in the Managing Director's or make it a division in the Mayor's Office. Do you have any thoughts on that score? COMMISSIONER MOY: I was not aware that we can -- apparently, we produced the result of expressing disinterest on the part of Streets Department to you about recycling. But we're pledged to recycle, and we see no need to have legislation to take it from the Streets Department. Certainly, the Administration's committed to it, and we will -- when we get a recycler on board, we will be happy to meet with you. 1274 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT.

Right. And what can we do to speed up that process? COMMISSIONER MOY: We are going to speed it up. I can't promise you a specific date, Councilman, but we will give it attention as soon as we can.

And can we be sure that RAC will be involved in the participation and selection of the person? Not make the decision, I'm not saying that, but be fully involved in the selection of the person. Because I think they'll know more. With all due respect to your department, I suspect that RAC will know much more about potential people who, you know, have some experience and who are devoted to the concept of recycling. 'Cause no problem will work unless you get somebody who really believes in recycling, not somebody who just does it because it's our duty to do it. COMMISSIONER MOY: We had met with the RAC and we agreed to keep them informed of our process as we moved along, Councilman. I think -- as a point of fact, it was 1275 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. mentioned with the RAC, that from their standpoint, it was important that we get a good manager. We're looking at it from a solid waste management standpoint, and they acknowledged that it was important to get a good manager --

Well, we want a good manager. COMMISSIONER MOY: -- as opposed to simply a recycling enthusiast.

No, I'm saying that you need both. But to have a good manager who doesn't care about recycling is no good. COMMISSIONER MOY: We agree.

That's the way to death. And to have a recycler who's not concerned about management, that's no good, either. You need the combination; you need a person that's really dedicated to recycling, but dedicated to making it work economically. COMMISSIONER MOY: We agree with you.

And I think you can get the best help from the RAC people. Well, the other questions, there are a whole host of them, which, Madame Chair, I'm not 1276 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. going to raise. Could we assume that -- this is the almost the end of February, that by the beginning of April, that's when the budgetary process work would be over that we could -- you would be in such a position? Could we have a promise by you that you would move forward and that it would very likely be by the beginning of April that you would have a recycler? Because maybe it would be better to hold other questions I have until there could be a general discussion with the new person in charge of the recycling program. COMMISSIONER MOY: I would say that's a reasonable target, Councilman, but as you know, it will --

Could you keep my office informed? COMMISSIONER MOY: I certainly will.

I have one last question. How much money is in the City budget for recycling? I haven't been able to find it in any of the material submitted in your statement. 1277 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. COMMISSIONER MOY: of our budget, we have two lines that reflect the recycling program. That's 447,000. And then the administration 3,848,000 -- sorry, that's -- the two of them are together. And so it's $4.3 million.

Of that amount, how much does the State contribute? Or can you furnish that information? COMMISSIONER MOY: That's City funds.

Solely City funds? COMMISSIONER MOY: Yes. And then there are grants.

Now, to that money, is there State money added? COMMISSIONER MOY: There's grants money on. . . On , there's a total of 3.27 million that's carried forward for our grants.

Madame Chair, Councilwoman Fernandez asked if I would yield to her on follow-up questions. I would like to do that.

Before doing that, 1278 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. I would like to acknowledge and welcome fifth-grade students who have joined us in the Caucus from the Pollack School. They're accompanies by their teacher, Miss Tobin. And I want you to know that we certainly acknowledge you. Would you stand to be acknowledged, please? (Pollack School group stands.) (Applause.)

We hope you enjoy your visit. Presently, Council is considering its operating budget. And testifying before us this morning is the Streets Commissioner, Commissioner Moy. So you can stay as long as you'd like because I think we're going to be here a long time today. (Laughter.)

Councilwoman Fernandez.

Just following up on the recycling questions. I think some of the information I requested earlier, would you be sure to include in 1279 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. your data and give us a couple of years, say like from '95 on, not only the tonnage you've collected of different kinds of recycled materials, but then what the value of those materials have been as you've been able to market them. So if you could be sure and give us that information broken out with residential and then --

Commercial.

Well, I guess commercial is done primarily by private haulers. COMMISSIONER MOY: Yes.

Right. COMMISSIONER MOY: That's right.

So primarily in the residential part. The other part of that I wanted to request is, it seems to me the City always needs to set an example before we're asking other businesses to recycle, particularly on the commercial side. And so could you also provide to the Chair a breakdown of the different City buildings and how much recycled materials are being 1280 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. collected and then what's the volume of the rest of the trash so that we can start to get a picture of how well or how well we are or are not doing in terms of our own City buildings. Because, I think, particularly if you want to impress the commercial recycling with stricter enforcement, we in the City have to be setting, I think, probably a better example, but I don't have any of that data. So if you could be sure to get that to the Chair, as we're taking a careful look at the recycling. COMMISSIONER MOY: We'll do that.

Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter.

Thank you, Madame Chair. Commissioner, let's go back to the earlier discussion about the nature of the relationship between the City of Philadelphia and the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation. PENNDOT has a certain amount of, I guess, miles of highway that they are responsible for. Is that correct? 1281 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. COMMISSIONER MOY: That's correct.

Okay. And that's generally referred to as "a State highway," is that right? COMMISSIONER MOY: That's correct.

And can you give us some estimate of the break-out in miles of highway in the City that we are responsible for as compared to PENNDOT? COMMISSIONER MOY: Yeah. We have about 2,000, plus or minus, miles of City streets and about 390 miles of State highway in addition to that. And that includes the limited access.

All right. So we're talking about in the realm of about 15 percent? COMMISSIONER MOY: Yeah, something like that.

Right, 300's about 15 percent of 2,000. COMMISSIONER MOY: Yes.

Okay. And what does it mean for a roadway to be designated as a State highway? And who makes that determination? 1282 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. COMMISSIONER MOY: That's a legislative decision that's made by the State, and there's an act of the legislature -- there are different acts of the legislature over the years that have created different parts of our system in Philadelphia.

So the State legislature makes a determination as to whether or not a particular roadway should be designated as a State highway? COMMISSIONER MOY: That's correct.

And then PENNDOT has a responsibility for that? COMMISSIONER MOY: That's true.

And what does that mean, "responsibility"? COMMISSIONER MOY: Well, depending on the act, because some of them differ. Generally, they're charged with the responsibility for the construction and the repair or the maintenance of their State highways from curb to curb, in simple terms.

And what is the, I guess, advantage for a particular highway being 1283 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. designated as a State highway? COMMISSIONER MOY: Well, in --

If there is one. COMMISSIONER MOY: Well, in terms of fiscal responsibilities, it places upon the State then the responsibilities for construction costs, design, maintenance, and the attendant liability for that; not only for the highway itself but, of course, in many cases, a number of their structures, which are quite expensive.

And how would you characterize the nature of the relationship between the Streets Department for the City of Philadelphia and PENNDOT? Is it an equal relationship? Are we in any way, shape, or form dependent on PENNDOT for certain things? Do we get certain things from them? Are they dependent on certain things from us? What's the nature of the relationship? COMMISSIONER MOY: I think it's more of a partnering arrangement that we have between the two jurisdictions there, where we recognize PENNDOT's responsibilities and they recognize 1284 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. ours. They, to some extent, will use us to get soundings of local sentiments there when they are working within the City. We try to get them to meet the responsibilities of State highways as they traverse the City, representing the citizens.

Do you find PENNDOT to be proactive in taking care of their responsibilities? Or do we have to kind of have to stay after them in certain ways to do what their legislature has dictated that they do? COMMISSIONER MOY: I suppose that's a mixed kind of response there. You -- over the years, a lot of -- it's varied, and I've been around for a few years, as you know. And some of it depends upon the leadership. Generally at the lower levels, we have a very good relationship with the working personnel.

What is the Streets Department of the City of Philadelphia's ability to force PENNDOT to do anything? COMMISSIONER MOY: Well, I don't think we can force them to do anything. I think it's -- 1285 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT.

You have no 3 authority over them? COMMISSIONER MOY: We have no authority over them. It's --

Do you have anything you can do to them? COMMISSIONER MOY: No. 9

Is there anything you can withhold from them? COMMISSIONER MOY: No. 12

Is there anything you cannot do that would subsequently force them to do something else? COMMISSIONER MOY: No. I think it's mostly a persuasive situation. We've been developing relationships of cooperation with them, so we use that -- try to use that effectively.

Does the City get money from PENNDOT? COMMISSIONER MOY: We get money, yes, for gas tax and liquid fuels taxes. They are important to us in that the federal monies that we would receive for some, when there are federal -- there's federal aid that comes through PENNDOT as 1286 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. a pass-through organization.

Okay. So your testimony in response to my question is: Essentially, you have a partnership either at a personal level or a professional level, you may have some contracts flowing back and forth, but you have no power and authority over PENNDOT and what they do and how they do it. COMMISSIONER MOY: That's true.

Now, with regard to the matter that was discussed earlier and a particular highway which, I guess, is generally referred to as "a bridge" in my district, of which you are very familiar, there has occurred the issue of the condition of the surface of that particular bridge. You have informed me and, I believe, others by way of letter of who has the responsibility for that bridge, which is PENNDOT, and I believe what you referred to in your engineering language as the "bituminous surface." COMMISSIONER MOY: That's correct.

Generally referred to, I guess, as the roadway or asphalt or 1287 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. something like that. In response to Council President Street earlier in the 15th Street example, you laid out that if a particular condition existed and if it were deemed by various parties to possibly be an emergency, you have certain protocols in relationship with PENNDOT that allow for work to be done. Is that correct? COMMISSIONER MOY: Yes.

Okay. And in this particular case, if we were to decide that, notwithstanding the responsibility -- and clear responsibility -- of PENNDOT in the case of this particular roadway, highway, or bridge, if the work is not being done in a timely nature that would provide for the future safety of any citizen crossing that particular highway or bridge, could a decision be made to make that roadway safer? COMMISSIONER MOY: I think that's possible. We obviously would meet with PENNDOT and use whatever alternatives would be available to us to persuade them to make it safe on their own.

I understand that. 1288 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. But if they are recalcitrant or their usual reluctant selves, we could make a decision to go forward to take care of a situation that an average individual might think could be made more safe. COMMISSIONER MOY: We would be very careful in that because it would probably be over the opposition of our lawyer -- of our Council. But that's possible, certainly.

Okay. Well, you don't know this, but while you were responding to other questions, I have had some contact with the Law Department. What I would like to ask you to do is to go back and talk to the Law Department in light of the current situation that is hanging over the Streets Department's head. But as the Councilperson for the district and a person who rides that particular roadway, I would like you to figure out a way to resurface and make more safe that particular area as soon as possible, notwithstanding the problems that we have with PENNDOT. Secondly, with the help and support of 1289 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. Councilman DiCicco, I think we do need to get to the bottom of the nature of the response time from PENNDOT on their State-mandated roadways. And so I think that we should have our Streets and Services Committee engage in a hearing process to either engage Secretary Mallory or I believe our local District representative is the Honorable Andrew Warren? COMMISSIONER MOY: That's correct.

Have them come in and explain to us and to the citizens of this City what they plan to do and how they plan to do it, to take care of their highways. Would you engage in that process with us? COMMISSIONER MOY: I certainly would, Councilman.

Okay. And you'll work on the particular roadway, or bridge, in question? COMMISSIONER MOY: I will do that, also.

Thank you. In the testimony, Commissioner -- and this is, I know, 1290 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. not our capital budget time, but we didn't discuss it during capital budget -- I notice that there apparently is no designation of funding for 15-mile-an-hour flashing lights in your budget. COMMISSIONER MOY: That's right.

How do you plan to carry the program forward? COMMISSIONER MOY: It's my understanding that the commitment, the arrangements that had been made -- and you may have been a principal here -- when the program was initially developed was that the City would advance the first funding for that, which we've done, and that Council would come up with the remaining funding.

Okay. I just want to make sure we're still on the same page with that. There's been a lot of discussion about street lights. And I know you and Councilman Mariano engaged in a wide-ranging discussion about that. You may also be aware that sometime last year, City Council did pass a resolution 1291 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. asking for the Administration and directly the Streets Department to take a look at creating programs that would result in, for lack of better terms, a somewhat brighter Philadelphia at night, utilizing the Center City model or the U-C-Bright Program out in West Philadelphia. It is a fact that in some areas throughout the City -- and certainly there are areas in the district that I represent -- it is clearly not as bright as it should be. And I'm not talking about lights that are out. These are lights that are on. But in most of our City neighborhoods, the cobra-type lighting, one, naturally, is only on one side of the street in many areas. And we have seen upgraded lighting programs specifically here in Center City, which, I know, the Streets Department had some participation in, where there's lighting on both sides of the street. And it really does dramatically improve the walkways and the roadways for lighting out there. I think as we go forward, in addition to more energy-efficient lighting that you are 1292 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. putting out and the brighter bulbs, I don't think we can dismiss the notion that lighting on both sides of the street has to be better than lighting on one side of the street. And I think part of -- I haven't talked to the Councilman, but I think what we may have been talking about is in those instances, it is virtually impossible to get additional lighting, not replacement for what exists. And we believe in replacing what exists. But if we're talking about the other side of the street, one where there are no poles, that you could quickly attach a cobra to. But how we brighten Philadelphia, I think, really is the main concern of a lot of people out there. This, naturally, would require additional funding, and I'm working on some infrastructures here with the City, but I think we'd like to have from you a plan and a program going forward that would, in fact, result in additional lighting out on the street; and for the moment, have you do it, notwithstanding costs or a whole host of other factors. And could you work on a plan like 1293 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. that? COMMISSIONER MOY: We certainly could.

Okay. Commissioner, I think that is all I have. Maybe one last quick recycling question, which has more to do with the schedule. And I know from time to time, you put out calendars. I've seen, I guess, six-month calendars, nine-month calendars. And if I could ever really remember whether I was in the blue area or the green area, I'd actually get it out on the right day. I was sharing with Councilwoman Clark that I actually depend on my next-door neighbor, who is much more attuned to the recycling cycle than I am. But to the extent that you could keep that information coming, I will certainly do my best, at least for the district, to get it out to the people and any other means that you have to let people know both what areas they're in and what the schedule is. And I know sometimes the stuff has come in a form that you can magnetize to your refrigerator or wherever you want to put it. It seems to me people really do want to 1294 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. participate. And I've seen people seem very disappointed, I guess, when they miss their day. They do want to get this stuff out, but sometimes -- unlike trash, which is once a week -- it's on the same day, and you can get lost a little in the two-week cycle. Naturally, that would be solved if you went to once a week, but that might be a fiscal problem. COMMISSIONER MOY: Right.

Okay, thanks, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER MOY: All right.

Thank you, Madame Chair.

Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Clark.

Thank you, Madame Chair. Commissioner, how are you today? COMMISSIONER MOY: Fine, just fine.

The trash trucks that you have in your fleet, what percentage of 1295 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. them are too old and should be replaced, and how much would it cost to replace them? COMMISSIONER MOY: We have about 273 vehicles total in our fleet, and they vary in age from 1987 through 1997.

So nothing is older than ten years? COMMISSIONER MOY: There are some, yes. There's about 64 vehicles, which is about 11 percent, I guess, of that number that are 1987 12 vehicles. 13

Is ten years 14 considered old in the life of a trash tuck? 15 COMMISSIONER MOY: Depending -- yes, 16 depending on the level of maintenance that these 17 vehicles receive. I think that begins to get to 18 the edge of their life cycle. 19 But I think Fleet Management has been 20 able in some cases to renew and rehabilitate some 21 of these older vehicles. 22

So none of them 23 are junk? COMMISSIONER MOY: No, I would say they're not junk, certainly. 1296 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT.

They are all operational; and to the greatest degree possible, consistent with their age, have served you well? COMMISSIONER MOY: That's true.

What percentage of them do you expect to replace? COMMISSIONER MOY: I think this is something that we work with Fleet Management on, and I don't know whether they've had an opportunity to testify yet, but they, in fact, control the purchase and renewal of our fleet.

Let me go the other way, Mr. Moy. Can you not hear me? You can't hear me? (Councilwoman Clark adjusts microphone.)

Is that better now? COMMISSIONER MOY: Right, okay.

The performance of your organization is not hampered by the size or the condition of your fleet; is that what you're saying to me? COMMISSIONER MOY: I would say the 1297 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. performance is very -- the condition of the fleet is very important to us. And we've been working very closely with Fleet Management to give them our needs, and they've been responsive to our needs. They've been giving us what we need on a daily basis.

But, Mr. Moy, I now ask you a yes-or-no question. This is a friendly interchange. COMMISSIONER MOY: Okay.

Okay? Is the performance of your Department hampered by the size and condition of your fleet? That's a yes-or-no question. COMMISSIONER MOY: You mean given the fleet today? The answer is yes, we do well with it. The answer is yes. In other words -- I'm sorry. The answer is, we're not hampered, we're not hampered by it. I'm sorry.

Yes, no, right?

I'm sorry.

So, yes, we're doing fine with the equipment that we have? 1298 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. COMMISSIONER MOY: That's correct.

Okay. So that if you have an orderly process by which you replace trucks, and you are not dissatisfied with what Fleet Management has in place, your problem is not your equipment. COMMISSIONER MOY: No. 9

Your problem is not your equipment. COMMISSIONER MOY: At the present time, the problem is not our equipment, no. 13

All right. So you don't need any money for equipment, any additional money over and above that which you've already asked for. COMMISSIONER MOY: Actually, the equipment would come out of Fleet Management's; it would not come out of our budget.

So you don't care how much we give Fleet Management. COMMISSIONER MOY: Fleet Management is to purchase equipment.

All right, Mr. Moy, I can't give you a straighter line than, can 1299 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. I? COMMISSIONER MOY: (Laughs.)

Can I give you a straighter line than that? COMMISSIONER MOY: No. We very much need, Fleet Management, we need the new equipment.

All right. The reason I'm asking you this is because the entire City is fine, and one of the advantages that we have in living in North Philadelphia is that we have twice-a-week trash pickup. See, somebody's going to say "boo" to that. But if you had more -- one of the reasons that we have twice-a-week trash pickup in North Philadelphia is that we have high population density. We have a low-economic income level and we're poor people. And that's why we have it, isn't it Mr. Moy? COMMISSIONER MOY: It's true.

Right. And the rest of the people are too rich to have it. No, I'm only kidding, I'm only kidding. Can the Members of Council access some of the geographical information used by your 1300 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. Department? If so, which services? And if not, how long can it be before -- I don't even understand that question myself, Mr. Moy, disregard that. COMMISSIONER MOY: Okay.

Where were we going with that? I want to spend just one minute on your street-cleaning plan. Please explain what you mean when you say that once a comprehensive neighborhood street-cleaning plan is developed, you will meet with the Council to discuss it. Because we are in the process Citywide of cleaning up Philadelphia. How will City Council members know when you're going to be doing the comprehensive cleanup in their area? COMMISSIONER MOY: Actually, I believe that testimony may have been written prior to the resolution that Councilman Kenney and, I know, a number of other Members of Council sponsored there. And we would expect in the near future to be talking with representatives of Council about the plan, about the cleaning plan.

Is it your 1301 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. ultimate objective to clean every neighborhood? COMMISSIONER MOY: We would like to do that. Now, what we need to do is work with Council on how that can be done effectively.

How do you determine, without talking directly to Council, which areas urgently require cleaning? Do you have a vacant-lot cleaning program? COMMISSIONER MOY: We, the Department of Streets, do not have a vacant-lot cleaning program.

Who does? COMMISSIONER MOY: I think you can talk with L&I about if there are private lots, privately owned lots. Our responsibility is more onto the public streets, and we have programs to deal with that.

Who cleans, besides major streets like Roosevelt Boulevard or the Expressway, who cleans those? When people fling bags of trash out their window, what happens there, who takes care of that? COMMISSIONER MOY: Well, on limited- access facilities, they're -- PENNDOT is 1302 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. responsible for the cleaning of the I-95 and expressways, the Schuylkill Expressway, the Woodhaven Road.

Do you call them or do they do it by their own orders? COMMISSIONER MOY: They have regular maintenance. I believe most of it's contract. I think they have maintenance contracts with vendors to clean those facilities.

All right. I yield back the balance of my time, Madame Chair.

Thank you, Councilwoman. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Fernandez.

Thank you, Madame Chair, I just want to follow up on (inaudible/off mike).

Councilwoman Fernandez, we can't hear you.

I wanted to follow up on this whole issue of how we can get our neighborhoods cleaner, and there was a question asked earlier about the Sweep Program. 1303 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. And I guess I was puzzled as to why this past year you said you focussed more on education rather than citations. That in 1997, FY '97, you issued and a half thousand citations, 6 with revenues of 850,000; compared to 22,877 7 citations, with revenues of 1.1 million the year 8 before, in FY '96. 9 At least my experience with some of the 10 traffic enforcement or illegal sales of tobacco, 11 it's citations that get people's attention. So 12 I'm really puzzled as to why you didn't issue as many citations for FY '97. You said in FY '98, you expect to issue 18,000 citations. COMMISSIONER MOY: And your question is, why isn't it more? Is that what --

Well, why did you not issue as many citations in FY '97? It's both a decrease in income. And I think, after all this time, citations are probably the best way to get people's attention. COMMISSIONER MOY: I think it depends on where we addressed -- where we focussed our attention. And I think that effort -- many of 1304 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. those sweep people were focussing on education first, and then, you know, giving them warning and then going after them with the citations. As you may recollect, the intent of the Sweep Program was not to be generating revenues as a main goal; it was primarily to get compliance. Now, what we're doing is the one, two steps of educating and then going after them with tightening up on, you know, we've told, we've told you, and now we're going to write you up. So the citations are partly a result of that. An increase in citations are a result of that approach.

Well, do you have any evidence if this education is working, this education approach? And where were you going that people didn't know that they're supposed to keep their trash -- like this morning, coming out of my house on Pearl Street, right behind our house, this huge Dumpster was just overflowing with trash all over the place. It's not like -- and I know people have known about Sweep and getting citations now for 1305 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. what, three, four years, five years? COMMISSIONER MOY: Right. What we've been doing, as you can see, though, is we have been addressing corridors and building (unintelligible) each year. And this year, it's going to be five more corridors, because we in fact do think that it has some impact. If you look at some of the -- and we can give you a list of the corridors, if you'd like, that we have -- commercial corridors that we have addressed and take a look and see how responsive those folks are, we get compliance from those corridors. And then we feel we can move on to other corridors throughout the City. And there will be five more this year.

Well, I would respectfully submit that you really, really need to be tough with these citations. Again, it's been a long-standing problem with Dumpsters overflowing in neighborhoods, just trash goes all over the place. It takes a lot of time and energy to clean it up. 1306 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. So I would urge you to be doing both. I think in a lot of programs it's the education with tough enforcement. And, again, people should have gotten the message by now. COMMISSIONER MOY: Okay.

The other thing is -- back to the Philadelphia More Beautiful. I notice that you are increasing their allocation by $22,000. What do you expect to happen as a result of that? Because I think, as we brought up in the capital budget hearings, the fact is that baskets and brooms and bags are not readily available to whatever neighborhood group wants to clean up. So what do you expect to do with that extra $22,000? COMMISSIONER MOY: Well, first of all, $22,000 is not a lot of money when it comes to the needs of cleaning. This PMBC has not had an increase in many, many years. This is kind of an effort to just increase the availability for materials and supplies and promotional things to make their program more effective. 1307 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. We have a discrete number in terms of what we can make available for bags and materials throughout the entire City. I mean, we have 200,000 bags, I think it is, or something like that, which we provide, which is a lot of bags, and we try and work largely through the PMBC program.

Well, maybe it's exactly that mentality that sort of bothers me. Again, neighborhood people are willing to get out and use brooms and fill up bags of trash, they're willing to monitor the basket on the corner. In other words, the citizens are doing all the -- basically all the work. They're volunteering their time. So I think it's penny-wise and pound- foolish to say we don't have enough bags, we don't have enough brooms, we don't have enough baskets in a -- how big is your department, it's how many millions of dollars? COMMISSIONER MOY: Well, 120 million or so.

Okay, in a $120 million budget, where half of your 1308 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. responsibility at least is having a clean city, I do not think that's a time to be penny-wise and pound-foolish. So I would like to have any neighborhood group call Philadelphia More Beautiful and say, Yes, here's your bags, your brooms, your baskets. If you need them, we're here to serve you. And then I'd like to suggest that you come back to Council and get more money if that's not enough. Because, again, why should we, you know, be breaking our necks in neighborhoods, willing to get out there and clean up, and then someone says, Oh, we don't have enough money in this size budget for some bags and some brooms. So I feel strongly about this, and I hope you'll really rethink your approach and think of how you can be there as an active partner working with neighborhoods who want to clean up their neighborhoods. COMMISSIONER MOY: We will look into that, Councilwoman.

Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Rizzo. 1309 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT.

Thank you, Madame Chair. Commissioner, our relationship with PENNDOT's that good. I think westbound, in Montgomery, there's been a truck tire laying up against a center medial for about three weeks now. That leads me to my question that the public doesn't know PENNDOT from -- when they drive through the expressway, they criticize the City of Philadelphia for a dirty roadway. So I'd appreciate it if you would let the Chair know the schedule, the maintenance schedule. Because the roadway is dirty, and I have people that visit the City say, Why don't you guys take care of your roadways? And then I try to explain to them the bureaucracy about PENNDOT and who does what. And, you know, it gets exhausting after a while. Possibly on the same plate, we should maybe know what that PENNDOT maintenance schedule is. Is it satisfactory, do they do it once a month that? That tire, a truck tire has been sitting on the medial strip at Montgomery now for, 1310 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. it has to be, without exaggeration, three weeks. And I've called it in twice to get it removed. Because it's not a hazard, it's just dirty. So I really think that we need to beef up our relationship with PENNDOT. That leads me to -- I want to follow up on the fact that Councilman Nutter identified the problem that I was referring to when I had my conversation with you earlier. So I would like also to be included in any correspondence in reference to that location and whether or not you will resurface that roadway until that bridge is repaired. In the 02, I believe it's going to go under extensive renovations. But for this period, really, we need to do something. So anything that you do, I'd like to be in the loop on that. COMMISSIONER MOY: All right.

Your earlier answer to the question that there were no speed bumps in the City of Philadelphia, I'd like to know because when you talk about traffic-calming devices, if you wanted to put a speed bump on a City street, is it legal? 1311 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. COMMISSIONER MOY: It's clearly not legal. And PENNDOT's requirements are when you come in to a residential street, there would be a question more of a policy there. And our policy is that they are not good, prudent tools for the traffic-calming. And the concerns, some of the concerns we would have would be that the bumps themselves cause problems not only to the motorist, but to bicycles, motorcycles, your plowing vehicles. There's a whole series of problems that that particular solution causes. So we have refrained from using that as a calming tool.

The reason for my question is, I've just traveled to Montgomery County, and I noticed that -- not speed bumps, but they had depressions cut in the roadway, especially in areas that were severe turns, obviously areas of excessive speed and numerous accidents. They didn't have speed bumps; they had basically the roadway cut out at maybe ten-foot intervals that -- like more so like when you get 1312 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. to the bridge and, you know, the ripples in the road, but they were depressions. So, obviously, if Montgomery's in the State of Pennsylvania and Philadelphia's in the State of Pennsylvania and they're utilizing those techniques there, maybe we should be looking at some of these traffic-calming devices. They might not be speed bumps, but there are certainly ways to let vehicular traffic know that maybe exceeding the speed -- something's up ahead of you, so you better pay attention and obviously slow down. So have you explored that? And I know that, you know, there was a committee hearing in reference to traffic-calming. I wasn't available for that. But have any of those techniques been utilized to slow vehicular traffic? COMMISSIONER MOY: Yes, as a matter of fact, we have. Beyond the committee hearing, we've met with Councilman DiCicco and Councilwoman Fernandez on this subject. And we reviewed some of the tools and techniques that have been used over the past few years by the traffic group. They've included the 1313 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. conversion to the four-way stops, which has been effective, and, you know, converting traffic signals over to four-way stops, among other things. And we also have the bicycle lanes, which you've seen installed in many locations, which have proven very effective in slowing traffic. It narrows the laneage (sic) available, you know, for people. So instead of riding two lanes and trying to pass on the right or whatever they're doing, they actually are following the lines and slowing down in terms of their behavior on many of the streets. We built up bump-outs and certain configurations of curb lines throughout the streets in the City, which help shorten the -- well, it reduces the roadway, it improves the -- it diminishes the distance for the pedestrian crossing. So they are some of the tools that we have. We're continuing to look at other techniques. We have --

Specifically, Commissioner, what I just described I experienced 1314 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. in Montgomery County. Have you or your Department, experienced or investigated utilizing those similar-cut perforations across the roadway at 10-, 15-foot intervals to slow traffic? COMMISSIONER MOY: Every one of those techniques has a trade-off. We -- our people -- our folks are investigating a number of those things. Rumble strips, for example, when you put them at a certain frequency, while they may have an effect of slowing people, they also produce noise, which some neighborhoods then come back with a backlash on. Nationally, the efforts that people have advanced throughout residential areas, there's not a clear answer because what happens is, they try it, one group wants it, and then six months later, they begin to pick up noise from the other side that wants them to take some of these things out. But our folks have attended seminars and have been keeping up with what is being done nationally.

All I can tell you, 1315 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. Commissioner, is that the intent that those strips that I've identified worked. They got my attention quickly, it alerted me that there was something ahead, even though I wasn't exceeding the limit -- by much -- that the devices worked to slow me down. And, again, they had a very positive effect on me as a driver. My last question, Commissioner, is that I've had this conversation with you before. Commissioner, we get letters, we get phone calls about missing stop signs, missing speed limit signs -- you name it, we get calls about it -- faded lane markings throughout the City of Philadelphia. Commissioner, again, are there people within the Streets Department that physically go and look for these deficiencies? Because as a Member of City Council, when I report a stop sign laying over on the sidewalk, and I noticed it maybe two or three days before, and finally get to the point where I report it myself, I'm the first person to report it. Commissioner, I appeal to you to look 1316 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. for an existing body in the Streets Department that goes into the Councilmatic districts and looks for the things that people call our office to explain about. You know, I can't imagine that a Member of City Council would be the first person to call about a stop sign that's laying across a sidewalk and it's been there for two weeks. How many people from the Streets Department rode by that same sign and didn't proactively report it? So I'm appealing to you to have the people in the Streets Department look for these deficiencies so that we don't get letters, we don't get phone calls -- not that that's a problem, but it's kind of embarrassing when we have a big government like this not identifying the problems and we have to rely on citizens to call. COMMISSIONER MOY: Well, I don't disagree with you that we should -- we're trying to get as many eyes and ears out there to report problems, as possible, including our -- certainly, our employees. And we will continue to, you know, urge reports from whomever is patroling streets 1317 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. there, to report the kind of conditions you're talking about.

Great. Thanks, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER MOY: You're welcome.

I appreciate all you do. Thank you, Madame Chair, I am completed.

Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Fernandez.

May I follow up? There was a misleading part of the record following that interchange. Could I just --

Just the one statement, and then we'll recognize you later.

Yeah. I would like to make the record very clear. In the hearings we held on traffic-calming, there was no 22 request from any of the Councilpeople that the Department look into traffic humps -- excuse me, traffic bumps. There was a long discussion about 1318 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. traffic humps, which are much longer. They do not jar the car and potentially cause accidents. There was testimony in those hearings that New York City has put in 120 traffic humps to slow traffic down. And it's my understanding in the follow-up meeting that the Commissioner had with Councilman DiCicco and I, you said your Department would be willing to consider piloting and working with Councilpeople who want to try traffic humps. So I think it was a serious omission on the part of the Commissioner not to distinguish between a traffic bump and a traffic hump or a traffic table. So I want the record to be very clear. We were requesting, and you have agreed to explore using traffic humps in neighborhoods where there are serious problems with speeding cars and where it is not cost-effective to think you're going to have a cop out there stopping speeding vehicles, but would make this adjustment to the roadway to give a clear signal. As Councilman Rizzo noted, it's a way to clearly warn motorists, You better slow down, 1319 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. you have to slow down because this is an intersection or an area or a neighborhood where people do not want you to go speeding through. So am I correct? That's what you agreed to? COMMISSIONER MOY: That's what we agreed to, Councilwoman.

All right, thank you.

Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Tasco.

Mr. Moy, let me ask one brief question. Then I have some other questions about the -- oh, on the street lighting program, I notice in your testimony that you -- it is a ten-year program? When the contract -- was there one contract left for the street lighting program in 19 -- I think it was 1992, or is that put out for bid every year? COMMISSIONER MOY: That's a combination of things. It's a series of contracts that are used to install the group replacement lighting 1320 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. program. But in addition to that, we also use some City forces to do that. But it's sort of on an annual basis. And I think it's up to an 11-year program at the present time.

But do you bid it each year? COMMISSIONER MOY: Yes, it's bid each year.

Okay. When the cost was initially determined, was there an escalating cost for increase in doing this included in the budget? Because as we -- as we deal with -- my experience in the Recreation Department has been that you can appropriate money for the construction of a recreation facility this year. By the next year, when it gets to bid, there's not enough money and the bid comes in higher. And so each year you're trying to play catchup. And the reason I ask this question is because street lighting is very important to me because we get a lot of requests for it. And I bought into this program when I was asked to vote 1321 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. for it in the budget, because I thought it would -- and I believed it would cover street lighting throughout the City of Philadelphia. And the reason I ask if there's enough money in the budget -- or have you increased the money each year to cover the cost to fund the program that was presented to City Council? Or will we run into the same kind of problem that we run into with the alley lights, that the money has run out? COMMISSIONER MOY: Well, each year, we do ask Council for an additional amount of money to cover that next year's funding. So the answer is, we will build each year's inflation into that request. So you will get an opportunity every year to vote on the program. So, for example, this year, in the capital program, we had a specific line item for that.

The other question I have is, I introduced a resolution to hold hearings based on the Philadelphia Code -- where's my stuff? -- to permit the City to move -- to repair driveways and retaining walls. And it is 1322 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. provided for in the Code. We get, I think, almost as many requests for that as we do street lightings or traffic stop signs. But to my knowledge, that law is not enforced, and could you tell me why? Because the Code doesn't -- COMMISSIONER MOY: Let me understand.

Because the code doesn't -- COMMISSION MOY: We're bound by the law, which, as I would see it, driveways and alleys and retaining walls are the responsibility of the property-owner. I don't think that we've have legislation that has altered that.

You should have your staff read Philadelphia Code, Section 11-506, where the City's authorized to do the work at the expense of the owners. If the group can't get together and the neighbors can't agree on how they're paying for the driveway, the City has the right and the power to do it and assess them or lien them. And it has been done in the past, and the neighbors know it has been done in the past. 1323 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. And all the people that have asked me about this want to know why has that stopped, why can't it be done, don't mind paying for the work. But what happens is there's not a hundred percent participation. So they need a mechanism where the work gets done, the City even contracts to do it, but all of the homeowners are billed or liened for that work. And there's also a provision in the Code where the Health Department can condemn the driveway or retaining wall if it adversely affects the public health and welfare. COMMISSIONER MOY: Yes, I'm familiar with that, with those provisions of the Code, and we do have a mechanism to meet with the community. And if you'll identify for us those locations, we'll send people out, which will counsel the community on all the things that they can do or should do.

They know what they should do. COMMISSIONER MOY: Right.

The problem we've 1324 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. had is getting the Streets Department to do what they can do. COMMISSIONER MOY: Okay.

We get, We can't do that, the City no longer does that. But it's provided in the Code that you can do it. The people know it, we don't want any more meetings. All I want to know is if your Department is going to enforce that portion of the Code that gives you the authority to go in and repair a retaining wall or repair a driveway. Which, by the way, the City trash trucks used to pick up trash, adding to the destruction of the driveways. COMMISSIONER MOY: Two things. With respect to the contract, I believe that the response is based upon is when the City has advertised most recently -- and I don't know how long this has been -- and has given the contractors the bills to collect here, which is the mechanism that has been used in the past to fund these, there are no contractors willing to accept that any longer. It used to be ten, twenty, perhaps 1325 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. twenty years ago that that was a practice that they followed, where they would take assessable bills and they would take that as payment. What I think that these folks may be hearing now is -- our Highways people are, no 7 doubt, saying that the contractors are not willing to accept that as a means of payment any longer. So we need to find -- we would have to find other means to pay for a contract like that.

If the City said that they're going to pave the driveway or repair a retaining wall and everybody in that block impacted would be assessed, they'd have to pay and if not they're, property would be liened. You would get better cooperation than a group of -- the block association trying to do it because there's no enforcement mechanism from the block association. So for a short period of time, I mean, the City has the ability to lien the property, and you just hold the lien. And I would think that you will probably have a greater participation. And if everybody -- we could set up a mechanism where we 1326 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. got 75 percent of the people, 80 percent of the people that agree to it, then the City will repair it and lien everybody who -- those people who don't pay. COMMISSIONER MOY: Well, we could pursue alternative funding mechanisms, but that would be --

Well, we're going to have hearings, so we can talk about that when we have the hearings. COMMISSIONER MOY: Right.

What happened to the pilot trash program with the Cans on Wheels, trash Cans on Wheels? DEPT. COMM. TOLSON: That program is still in place.

Beg your pardon? You had a pilot program where -- COMMISSIONER MOY: You have to identify yourself for the record. DEPT. COMM. TOLSON: Clarena Tolson. That program is still in place.

Are you still -- because a part of the program was done in my 1327 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. district. People call me and want to know, Well, why don't we have those trash cans like they have on the far end of the 50th Ward? DEPT. COMM. TOLSON: Right.

Are you going to just have a pilot -- have the program just in certain sections of the City, or a little bit in each part of the City, or are you going to have a systematic way of implementing the program throughout the City? DEPT. COMM. TOLSON: Right. The intent of that program was to try to get people to containerize their waste and beautify the community, and also create some efficiencies for ourselves so we could decrease our crew size by one person. It was also a waste-minimization effort because all waste was supposed to go into that one container. However, we had a very difficult time, and we were not successful in getting people to use only the tilter as their waste container. What the tilter became was just an extra trash can or a bigger trash can versus the only trash can that people use. 1328 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. In other communities, in suburban areas where there is a container like the tilter container that we use, that's the sole receptacle for people's trash, and a truck comes by with an automatic lift and dumps all of the trash from the container into the truck. However, our response was mixed in that, one, we had a large number of people who felt that the container was a nice receptacle so they put out more trash than they normally did. In addition, they put trash alongside it so that it still required our laborers to have to dump trash. As well as those who did not want to participate because of the inconvenience that they felt they had from a large container being outside their home. Our neighborhoods are not homogenous, so the fact that we had people who were bringing containers down inclines or didn't have space in their driveway to put it because they had put up a cyclone fence or they had a garden or whatever led to the choice by some to not participate and to use their regular can. So given that mixed response, it did 1329 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. not go well for us. We have been evaluating if it's worth our trying a fully automated system wherein people would have to put everything in the container. However, if we were to do that, we'd also have to require everybody in the test area to participate because they would not be able to get their trash collected otherwise. So it's under evaluation, and we're not moving forward swiftly on that program. But those are the results that we received from the tilter thus far.

Madame Chair, I think that's it.

Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman DiCicco.

Thank you, Madame Chair. The Partnership Recycling Program is a successful community-based program. It is a program that allows thousands of citizens to recycle plastics, clothing, mixed paper, etc. And in some cases, some communities earn income for 1330 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. projects in their neighborhoods. Where are we in the program as it relates to funding in Fiscal Year '99? Are we funding that program? COMMISSIONER MOY: Yes, we --

Are we fully funding it? COMMISSIONER MOY: We're fully funding that program. As a matter of fact, I believe there's an incremental increase that we're anticipating for the coming year.

Okay. Last year, you informed this Council -- and I believe I posed the question, and this follows up on a question that was asked earlier by Councilwoman Clark. And I had asked the question about a Citywide program with a regular street-cleaning program. 'Cause I know you did one in South Philadelphia, in the Queen Village section. And I believe at the time, you indicated that you were preparing a plan that would be presented to Council. How much closer are we to that plan this year than we were last year? 1331 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. COMMISSIONER MOY: We do have a listing of some of the candidate locations, Councilman, that we would be happy to share with you, in the next -- you know, as we meet with this group. We did lose some personnel, some broom drivers, and we're going to be filling them, which will help us. I think this --

I know we're going to be doing one in a couple weeks on South Broad Street. Councilwoman Verna and I arranged to do something there. But I'm looking at the bigger picture, on the Citywide. And I thought last year that we were supposedly getting close last year, and I'm wondering where we are this year. And I heard you indicate earlier that you were working on a plan to present to us. How much closer to that plan? COMMISSIONER MOY: I think we need to talk with you about some of these corridors, because each of them requires considerable resources as you begin to multiply the Queen Village project there. But we do have a series of corridors which we'd like to talk to you about. 1332 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT.

Okay. And just one other question. This has been something that's on my mind because I'm one of those fanatical people, I guess, that walks the streets and picks up paper and puts it in a bag on a daily basis. But trash containers, sort of a follow-up to, I guess, Councilwoman Tasco's question. Trash containers, the 32-gallon rubber drums or whatever, is there any thought given to whether that would be more appropriate Citywide to use containers as opposed to just the typical bag that, with just the slightest amount of wind, eventually winds up in the streets and cats and rodents tear into these bags? I know in some other municipalities, in suburban communities, down at the seashore, there's certain regulations on the containers. And I know we have regulations as it relates to bundling of cardboard and paper. But beyond that, what I'm looking at is, have we ever discussed the possibility of mandating that we use a more sturdy type of container as opposed to the typical green, gray, 1333 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. whatever, garbage bag that literally winds up in the street, gets thrown around. And that's not a fault of the Streets Department, so I'm not criticizing you there. I just was wondering if we, as a City, have ever looked at that. COMMISSIONER MOY: Well, in talking about the diversity of our City, you know, with all of the geographical differences and diversity that we have, it really is hard to get a one-size-fits-all kind of answer. Certainly, the problems of containers, with theft, we find people that had gone to containers were pulling back and going to bags for whatever reason; convenience, lack of storage in the smaller houses. And over the years, it's very irregular in different neighborhoods, but we could certainly approach this.

And the reason I raise this is I understand that we've all become accustomed to the throwaway -- we've become a throwaway society. Before there were trash bags, everyone used a container. And we kind of became 1334 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. -- pardon me, I'm giving my age away. I'll be 52 in May. I mean, and that disturbs me, again, because I'm kind of fanatical about trash, that we don't maybe look back to what we did prior to the trash bag era. And I understand that some of the people say, Well, you know, it's heavy for me to carry. But when I look at the elderly person who complains to me about that, who typically has three bags of trash that they have to make three return trips to the yard, assuming they don't put it out front before trash pickup, they have to carry one bag at a time three different times out to the front. So why wouldn't they put some material in a trash container, maybe make the three trips, one bag at a time, to the container. I think it would make for a much cleaner environment. And if it requires legislation -- I may probably get my head chopped off -- but I'd be willing to be supportive of that kind of legislation, and I'd like to talk to you about that. 1335 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. COMMISSIONER MOY: All right.

I think it would go a long way and probably help in not only keeping the City clean, but may help you in your efforts to gather up trash because it makes it more compact. I think I had one more question. When we talk about recycling and the possibility -- and I encourage doing a weekly recycling as opposed to every other week. Did we ever look towards doing the recycling on a trash pickup day as opposed to an alternate day? Because, again, giving my age away, I remember when trash was put out, when we had the old coal stove that heated the house, you had a big metal container for ashes, you had a garbage container for garbage. And the pig farmers, if the City wasn't picking it up, then they also had regular trash containers. And it was all put out on the same day. And as someone who's aware of this and does a lot of recycling, I forget. You know, with my job, I get home 11:30 some nights and I forget what day it is that I'm getting home, no less what 1336 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. day I should be putting my recycles out. So I would appreciate it if you would really look into that seriously, that we do it on the same day as trash. COMMISSIONER MOY: We certainly will consider at the same time.

Thank you. No further questions, Madame Chair.

I just offered that suggestion to Pete Certo as we were sitting here talking. I said I don't understand why we can't do it on the same day as the regular trash collection day.

The trucks that we use for recycling, they're only used -- am I correct? -- for recycling materials? COMMISSIONER MOY: Yes.

Yes. COMMISSIONER MOY: That's correct.

So it's not that we have to worry about --

Just follow each other. 1337 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT.

We would just follow each around. COMMISSIONER MOY: Right.

Thank you, Madame Chair.

Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Fernandez. (No response.)

Councilwoman, did you still want to be recognized?

No. My light's off.

All right. The Chair recognizes Councilman Mariano.

Thank you, Madame Chairwoman. Two quick questions. First, just a statement. I can't believe how old Councilman DiCicco is if he remembers coal and pig farmers. Councilman, for your age, you've held up pretty good. (Laughter.)

Thank you. Back 1338 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. to Councilwoman Tasco's driveway problem. I have the same problem with the driveways, and I'm glad you brought that up. I brought that up to Councilman Cohen about a year ago. And he seems to remember in his 80-some years -- he's been here since 1962, and I commend him for that. But he remembers that there was somebody who used to buy, I guess you would call it, a bond. And they would be bonded -- they would buy it off the City, and they would actually be the collector of the people who didn't pay for the, you know, the redoing of the back of their driveway. Could we look into something there and see if -- COMMISSIONER MOY: Well, there used to be -- there was a gentleman by the name of Louis Boxer that bought those bills through the City, and --

He went to Florida or something? COMMISSIONER MOY: No, he's maybe 105 now or something like that, if he's still alive. 1339 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT.

Well, in Councilman DiCicco's world, that's not that old. (Laughter.) COMMISSIONER MOY: Right. He remembers horse carts picking up the ashes.

Right. COMMISSIONER MOY: But he retired, and actually no one picked up -- there was one contract that we had after he had retired, and I think they convinced him to come out one more time. I think he was like 90-some odd years old.

Didn't you try to get anybody else to do this? COMMISSIONER MOY: We've tried, and we just are having difficulty, but we will explore it again in terms of -- it's a niche that has to be filled, but people are not willing to step forward and buy those bills at discount, which is what it amounts to. COMMISSIONER MARIANO: And we got people to buy our tax liens, and we were amazed at that, so I mean, there must be some wise person out there with some money that can make something on this if we advertise it, if they read it in the 1340 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. paper that we're looking for something like that. My second question is, I was glad to hear about that pilot program. And from my first round with you this morning, maybe that's the answer for the driveways up in the Northeast, something on wheels. In this pilot program, do you expect the sanitation workers to actually run up and wheel these things back to the trash trucks or -- 'cause I never heard of the pilot program. DEPT. COMM. TOLSON: Right, the one that I suggested that we were --

Excuse me. Please identify yourself before you answer that. DEPT. COMM. TOLSON: Yes, Clarena Tolson. The one I'm suggesting that we're trying to look at now is one where a truck would actually grab the can itself and dump it.

Okay. DEPT. COMM. TOLSON: So you need clearance, you need clear access to the can, no 24 parked cars, and you need some space away from a house where you could reach out. 1341 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT.

Right, I envisioned something like that. But when Councilman DiCicco was talking about the pig farmers, I remember, they didn't come up the driveway; they used to actually run up the driveway, and it was only garbage they were picking up. DEPT. COMM. TOLSON: Right.

I'm not as old as him, but I do remember that. And they used to run it back down. They never brought the garbage up the driveway. DEPT. COMM. TOLSON: Right.

And that amazed me. Thank you. Thank, you Madame Chairwoman. That's all.

You're welcome. Are there any other questions or comments? Commissioner, we do have 43 less sanitation workers in your budget? COMMISSIONER MOY: Yes, that's correct.

Is that because of 1342 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. the larger trucks that are being used? I don't know how you can provide the same level of service with 43 less employees. COMMISSIONER MOY: Councilwoman, it amounts to people that we have been able to 7 reduce, and this is a result of our balancing of 8 our routes, the sanitation collection routes. 9

I think your 10 testimony indicated 43. 11 COMMISSIONER MOY: Councilwoman, I'm 12 sorry for the delay here, but it is 47, and we are 13 talking about collections and cleaning and other 14 parts of the Sanitation Division that we've been 15 able to effect these changes in. This was from 16 our targeted budget. 17

And your satisfied 18 with that? COMMISSIONER MOY: We believe we can manage our collections.

Okay. I had some other questions, but I know it's been a long day for you, so I will submit them in writing because we have other departments that have been waiting since early this morning. 1343 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. COMMISSIONER MOY: I appreciate that.

I want to thank you for your patience. COMMISSIONER MOY: Thank you.

Thank you very much. - - -

The Department of Public Property is next to testify. (Members of the Public Property panel come forward.)

Good afternoon, Commissioner, please identify yourself for the record and proceed with your testimony. And perhaps you can introduce those who are sitting at the table with you, if you will. COMMISSIONER PEREZ: Good afternoon, Councilwoman Verna. My name is Andres Perez. I'm the Commissioner of the Department of Public Property. It's a pleasure to appear today before Council in support of Public Property's budget for Fiscal Year 1999. With me are Mr. Joseph James, Deputy Commissioner of Communications; John Herzins, 1344 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY Deputy Commissioner for Administration; and George Hee, Fiscal Officer. In my testimony, I'd just like to briefly outline the role of the Department and detail some of our accomplishments during Fiscal '98. The Department of Public Property's fiscal 1999 budget request totals $198,702,735 in all funds, an increase of $5,473,222 from our FY '98 estimated obligations. In the General Fund, in Class 100, we're requesting $8,794,295, which is an increase of $206,000, approximately $206,000, from our FY '98 obligations. And that comes as a result of the pay raises that are due. In Class 200, we're requesting $144,335,805, which is an increase of $4,256,381 from our FY '98 obligations and resulting from an increase in telecom and utility costs as well as an increase in the SEPTA subsidy. We're requesting $15 million in Class 800, which is an increase of $1 million for our FY '98 obligations, resulting from full funding of water and sewer charges. 1345 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY A General Fund request includes $59,343,000 for City support of SEPTA. And there's $20,013,000 for space rentals, $30,350,000 for utility charges, and $12,235,000 for telecommunications services, and $47,272,163 for our core departmental operations. In the Water Fund, we are requesting $3,014,527 in Class 200, which is an increase of only $10,000 from the FY '98 obligation. In the Grants Revenue Fund, we're requesting $16,500,000, which is unchanged year from prior-year obligations. In the Aviation Fund, we're requesting $9,975,000, which is also unchanged from FY '98 obligations. The Facilities and Real Estate Management Division is responsible for the acquisition and disposition of City-owned properties, as well as the maintenance and management of City-owned facilities. The Department continues to implement the Administration's Center City Real Estate Plan, recognizing that the City's financial and operational interests were not effectively served 1346 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY by the continuation of scattered-site, short-term leases. The Administration developed the Center City Real Estate Plan in 1994 with three primary objectives: the consolidation of our scattered downtown office space; negotiating more competitive real estate terms in the Center City market; and providing the municipal work force and the citizens they serve with modern, functional and cost-effective space. The selection of the former Bell Building headquarters at One Benjamin Franklin Parkway, as an additional Center City municipal office building, will consolidate 13 agencies, including virtually all of the Law Department operations and most of the centralized Department of Human Services functions. The move into this building of 1900 employees currently located in 7 different leased buildings throughout the City will be completed in November of '98. The Department also recognized that several agencies housed in leased spaces had operational requirements that would not be well 1347 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY served through consolidation, but that significant savings could be achieved through lease negotiations. 2 million in savings over the life of the plan.

The remaining implementation of the plan is currently being addressed by the Department and includes selecting a building to move several agency functions currently located in Center City office space to less costly buildings away from the Center City business district. Consolidation of several agencies which are located in scattered-site leased open space -- pardon me -- leased space into one Center City location. The number of completed maintenance work orders has dramatically increased from 2,401 in 1992 to 5,281 in FY '97, with a projected 7,504 completed in both '98 and '99. 1348 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY This increase can be traced to two important developments. The rejuvenation of the City's capital program is enabling the Department's Building Services Staff to return to the mission of providing maintenance services, thereby reducing the age of the maintenance work-order backlogs and improving response time to routine maintenance requests. In addition to tracking the number of work orders, the Department will begin analyzing hours it takes to respond to work orders, which will be a much more meaningful indicator of our success in providing building maintenance services. Computerized building maintenance system. The maintenance planning and control system has increased our ability to plan and perform regular preventative maintenance on building systems, thereby reducing the risk of system failure and extending the useful life of existing systems. The impact program is now being used to manage contracted services at the current Fromhold Correctional Facility, the Criminal Justice 1349 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY Center, the Municipal Services Building and will be extended the to One Parkway building when that building comes on line during the summer of 1998 in addition, it gets extended to any new facility that's constructed by the CPO during our term. The recently completed police and fire facility at 24th and Wolfe was added to the impact system in FY '98. And for the first time, a comprehensive preventive maintenance program has been established for the combined police and fire facility. The Department has successfully completed rebid of contracted operations, maintenance and support services at the Curran-Fromhold Criminal Justice Center and the Municipal Services Building, including the anticipated One Parkway building, with a new contract awarded in July of 1997. The Competitive Contracting Initiative resulted in significant savings as well as dramatic improvements in the delivery of services. An example of the savings included a $500,000 reduction in maintenance costs at current Fromhold, and a $477,000 reduction in cost for 1350 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY custodial services in City Hall and its adjacent subway concourses. A significant example of the improvement in service delivery is that the level of maintenance available at current Fromhold has resulted in zero cell outage overnight since the prison was open more than two years ago. And a cell outage is just broadly defined as having a cell unavailable for a prisoner to use on an overnight basis. The Department anticipates that it will continue to generate annual savings and further enhance services, including increased custodial and security staffing and improved preventive maintenance practices. Since 1992, the City's implemented a series of improvements to its telecommunications infrastructure by taking advantage of new technology to improve service, reduce costs, and improve the Department's ability to utilize the technology.

These initiatives include creating the City's area-wide network, generally referred to as "City Net," converting over 6,000 rotary 1351 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY telephones to touch-tones service, consolidating a hundred local telephone exchanges into three uniform exchanges, installing a Citywide voice-mail system, providing many departments with automated-attendant systems, and integrative voice-response systems. Interactive applications for checking tax balances and payments were also added to the system during FY '97. In FY '97, the Department assisted the Police Department in installing mobile data terminals in 320 patrol cars. A separate radio system designed for public cellular telephone use was successfully piloted as an alternative data transport medium to support the additional mobile data terminal traffic. As a result of the pilot, Public Property and the Police Department began a Citywide roll-out that will place these mobile terminals in every district patrol car by the end of Fiscal Year '99. The Communications Division also worked with the Police Department to redesign and reconstruct the City's 911 Center at the Police Administration Building. The new center, which 1352 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY will be completed in March, is being outfitted with modern work stations, integrated call-answering and CAT equipment, and a state-of- the-art backup power supply that will keep the 911 Center operational through any electrical emergency. The Communications Division also continues to maintain the existing 911 call answering and dispatch infrastructure for the police and fire departments and to administer the 911 Surcharge Program and to establish regulations for assimilating new local telephone service providers into the 911 system. The Department added 15 integrated service digital network lines during FY '97, bringing the Citywide total to 140 of these ISDN lines. These lines provide additional capacity required to facilitate higher-speed data communications and to support high-volume telephone lines, including customer service line in the Water Revenue Bureau, MOIS's Operation Support Center, the Mayor's Business Action Team, and video arraignment functions in the courts' 1353 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY Pretrial Interview Unit, and various police precincts. In FY '98, the Division anticipates adding another ISDN lines in departments such 6 as Recreation and Health. 7 The Department continues to pursue a 8 state-of-the-art 800-megahertz radio system to 9 replace the existing 150-megahertz and 450- 10 megahertz conventional system. 11 In April of '94, the City issued the 12 request for proposals for this new system and 13 received proposals from two major radio providers. 14 Legislation recently signed by Governor Ridge will 15 allow the mobile and portable communications 16 devices to be included for reimbursement under the 17 911 surcharge. 18 As a result of this legislation, the 19 City will now complete its evaluation of all 20 potential radio system offers, and contract- 21 awarded system implementation are expected to 22 commence during Fiscal Year '99. 23 In FY '98, the City plans to upgrade 24 City Net to increase band width, extend service to 25 the Free Library and the Health Department, add 1354 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY infrastructure to support the One Parkway building, develop subnetworks for the School District and the City of Philadelphia Housing Authority, and support the development of geographic information system applications. The enhancements will provide the infrastructure capacity to support the new prison information system, police MDTs, electronic mail, and online access initiatives. The upgrade is expected to be completed before the end of FY '98, at a cost of approximately $375,000.

Since the City instituted a Special Events Policy in May of 1993, the Managing Director's Office and the City Rep's Office coordinated the City services necessary to support events such as parades and festivals. The Department of Public Property continues to provide much of the labor for these events. Our Facility Management personnel erect and decorate stage and bleachers and deploy security barricades along even routes for police use and crowd control. Our Communications personnel install 1355 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY sound and public address systems, set up electrical wiring and power feeds, and provide holiday seasonal lighting. The number of special events which Department supports continues to increase, going from 186 in FY '94 to 248 in FY '97, and a projection of 250 in FY '98. Not only has the number of events supported by the Department increased, but the size of the events has grown as well. For example, the 1997 Welcome America Festival included 30 events, spanning a two-week period. In both '97 and '98, the Department supported more complex special events than in previous years, including large conventions for the International Brotherhood of Electricians and the International Lions, the President's Summit for America's Future, and the Million Woman march. As a result of the number of hours the Department expended in support of special events increased from 15,480 in FY '95 to 19,266 in FY '97 and is projected to remain at approximately 22,000 hours in both FY '98 and '99. Public Property's been working with 1356 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY representatives from SEPTA and private building owners and Suburban Station to create a master plan to develop station and adjacent Penn Center concourse. This team has been developing a new physical plan for both the public common areas and privately owned areas of the concourse as well as a unified public private managerial structure of common areas and privately opened areas and retained establishments. The plan for the non-retail station mezzanine and platform areas has recently been completed. The resulting operation's plan will be modeled after the plan used by the Mall Maintenance Corporation, which manages the common areas in the Gallery on east Market Street. SEPTA has funded the initial phase of this product at a cost of $13 million. Additional phases involving extensive design and construction will be completed in FY '2003 at a total cost of $33 million. It's expected that the public investment will be supplanted by private-sector contributions by Metro Market, SEPTA's retail manager for the project. 1357 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY In addition to the SEPTA operations subsidy, Public Property's budget includes funding to support the Phlash Center City circulator bus system. The Phlash's ridership has increased from 28,662 in FY '95 to over 96,000 in FY '96, and over 120,000 in FY '97. During the FY '97 season, the capacity constraints of vehicle downtime required rental of additional vehicles. To date, FY '98 ridership has exceeded '97 levels each month and is expected to experience an equal, if not greater, level of increase as occurred in FY '97. FY '99 ridership is projected to further increase due to the anticipated delivery of six new natural-gas-powered buses purchased with federal air-quality funding and the current overhaul of four of the original Orion Phlash buses. With the three new buses received in FY '98 and the buses anticipated in FY '99, the permanent Phlash fleet will be 14 vehicles, which are maintained by SEPTA. This expansion will increase new service opportunities such as the Art Museum and reduce the waiting time. 1358 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY That constitutes my testimony, and I'm available for questions. Thank you.

Thank you, Commission. The Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter.

Thank you. Good afternoon, Commissioner. Commissioner, I'd like to go to pages and of your testimony. About a week or so ago, the Finance Director was here talking about relocation of public employees. And he stated in his testimony that the City tries, in looking at potential office space, to take into consideration the impact that we may be able to have as a, I believe the term is a "lessee," that we look to see what the impact is on the real estate market in terms of looking at space. And there are some public employees who don't necessarily need to be in Center City. They can -- by virtue, I guess, of technology and a whole host of other things, they could be anywhere, I guess, if you provide them with a phone, a fax machine, and maybe a computer and a 1359 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY modem. He later went on to tell us about the proposed relocation of a number of employees who are either in buildings that we currently have leases or that we may own or who are in space owned by other people. For instance, we have folks who are not going into One Parkway from the Streets Department, various police units, and L&I. And those employees are currently at 1600 Arch, 3189 Race, 1415 North Broad Street, and, again, 1600 Arch. What I'm trying to understand is, in the proposed lease for 990 Spring Garden Street, why are we moving people out of 1415 North Broad up in a thriving commercial corridor, to 990 Spring Garden? And have we evaluated the impact the relocation of those employees may have from the one cite in the OIC building to the proposed new site at 990 Spring Garden? And what are the differences in the rates that those leases may have? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: The negotiations 1360 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY with 990 Spring Garden have not been concluded, although we expect the general term of the lease to be about a dollar, a dollar and quarter less per square foot than the lease at 1415 North Broad Street. The prime reason for relocating from 1415 North Broad Street is the owners/managers' inability to properly maintain the space despite many efforts, well-intentioned efforts, on their part. Another contributing factor is the growth of the L&I Unit there. They have outgrown the space that they're in. They need to relocate or move into an expanded area, and it doesn't make much sense to expand inside a building that is already not well taken care of by the owners.

So your testimony is that OIC is not taking care of their building. COMMISSIONER PEREZ: That's correct.

Okay. And what other sites did we explore for these particular employees who, by the previous testimony, at least, could be anywhere in the City? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: I believe the 1361 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY final comparison -- for lack of a better word, the short list included a building on North Eighth Street and a --

North Eighth Street, somewhere in the general Center City area? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: Eighth and Callowhill. I forget the actual street address. I think it was 817 or 814 North Eighth Street. And I think Penn Treaty -- a building referred to as "Penn Treaty Place," I don't recall the specific street address for it. The economics were clearly in favor of the 990 building.

Okay. And when you're looking for buildings, what's the process that you go through to look at potential sites? And did you look at any sites out in our neighborhood areas for where these employees who, again, by Mr. Hayllar's testimony, these people could be anywhere? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: This -- to partially answer that question, the current negotiations over these sites is the outcome of two RFPs that were distributed some time ago leading to the selection of One Parkway and then 1362 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY leading us to finding other sites because One Parkway was not large enough to envelop the original size of the space program. Our best buildings were too large and not economical for us to go into. Or we take One Parkway, which is a little short of the space we required, therefore allowing us to look at other buildings. It was a combination of responses to that RFP. It did not include a targeted effort at neighborhood locations --

Was there any particular -- COMMISSIONER PEREZ: -- as well as word of mouth. In the real estate industry, in the real estate circles, as agents learn about who is pursuing, they don't hesitate to just come forth and bring a building to our attention. And if the economics involved with that offer are attractive enough, we'll do the required analysis and give it appropriate consideration. We were also fighting a time clock. I mean, we have to be out of 1600 Arch. This was driven also by the imminent termination of the 1363 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY lease at 1600 Arch and not only by the completion of One Parkway. A micro-level comparison of the North Broad Street site versus the Spring Garden site, we didn't do, and we don't normally do it unless we have some compelling reason to do that.

Well, some of us -- (Councilwoman Clark takes over the Chair.)

May I just interrupt one second?

Sure, Madame Chair.

Is there a brief reason why you are even considering moving City services from the North Philadelphia facility, the OIC facility, what we refer to as "the Human Services Building," that large, white building at Broad and Master? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: I think I missed the first part of your question.

Is there a reason why we're considering moving City services from the OIC facility? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: We've outgrown the 1364 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY L&I space. There's also police-training groups inside that facility. And they have not taken care of the building in the manner that it should be taken care of.

Have you complained specifically of things that were not done? And have they failed and refused to fix it? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: They haven't refused to fix anything; they have been unable to effectively and permanently fix and responsibly and timely fix anything. And when we -- actually, when I took it in the other direction, which is, Can we consolidate within your building, take control of a larger block of space and you give us a work letter against the rent that we'll pay? they were unable to do that. And I believe it has to be with their ability to finance their activity in the building.

How will they be helped by you moving out? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: They're going to be hurt because we're going to be vacating space. 1365 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY

But do we want to hurt a large commercial building in North Philadelphia by creating a vacuum by the vacancy we leave? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: I'm not certain how bad or how hard the hurt is. For example, the extra space that we were thinking of expanding, I mentioned to Councilman Nutter that part of the problem was L&I outgrowing its space. They're very, very tightly packed into that -- There was some excess space in the building, and they did find another tenant for it before we could even conclude that they couldn't finance what we wanted, but they did find another tenant for some portion of that space. I really don't know how viable the building is for them. The reason that we're in that building is because of its strategic location. I mean, we're leaving the strategic location, but --

If its location was strategic when you decided to go, is it not still a strategic location? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: It is, but they're 1366 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY not taking care of the space. They are unable -- with good-faith efforts, with good-faith efforts, they still can't get things done. And they're unable to finance a renovation. The other key aspect of these renegotiations we've done related to the space consolidation wasn't simply taking space at a cheaper rate. But in virtually every case, we get completely renovated space, modern finishes and modern furnishings in some cases if the budget includes it. So staying in a building where the owner can't do that for us is contrary to that plan. I feel bad for them. They've been in there a long time, I've been Commissioner for a long time, seven years. In those seven years, we've had numerous sets of issues which have all been associated with how well they take care of that space, not so much how crowded we are in our own space.

Commissioner, did you look at any other locations in the general neighborhood? 1367 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY COMMISSIONER PEREZ: I don't believe we did. I think we just took the path of least resistance.

Well, the follow-up to Councilwoman's Clark question is: If you believe that that is a strategic location, and if we grant you that the space is either not appropriate or the owner can't take care of it or whatever, the area, I guess, still retains some strategic importance. And so it would seem to me that the next level of inquiry is: What else is around in the general vicinity? And your response is, you didn't take a look at that, right? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: No, sir.

And you also said earlier that you did not take any particular look for any of these people who, again, can be anywhere, at any neighborhood locations that could benefit -- if it's the City policy is to try to benefit the local real estate market, don't you think that certain neighborhoods could benefit from having public employees in potentially renovated space, with nice leases, out in the 1368 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY community somewhere? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: I think it's a forgone conclusion that if we as a tenant -- and forget us as the City, but just if we as a tenant become the anchor tenant for an otherwise under- utilized building in a commercial corridor or other neighborhood location, there will -- sure, there will be an impact.

A positive impact. COMMISSIONER PEREZ: Usually positive. And I say "usually positive" because they don't welcome our cars. I mean, parking is a part of the consideration in the consideration of the buildings that I mentioned. Parking capacity was very much a part of looking at times those three buildings, not simply cheaper rent.

Okay. Madame Chair, you had actually asked for a yield, and I jumped on your yield from the previous time.

Let me give it back to you.

Okay. Now, in your testimony, Commissioner, we have kind of two 1369 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY things going on. On , we're looking to centralize some of our agencies and functions in Center City buildings. And literally, in the next bullet point, we talk about decentralizing some employees into scattered-site spaces. Is that correct? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: Yes.

We've got some centralized and some decentralized. COMMISSIONER PEREZ: That's correct.

Okay. And it's your opinion that this particular location at 990 is the best place for all of these different units, Streets, Police, and L&I, and their very components to be? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: It's the best place of all that we considered. Is there a better one out there somewhere? There very well may be, but the timetable doesn't really permit us to continue the space chase.

Okay. And just for the record, how many locations did you consider? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: I don't recall. I can get that for you based on RFP responses as 1370 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY well as agents sending in unsolicited proposals.

Okay. I'd also be interested in what agents you've been dealing with or who you normally deal with. COMMISSIONER PEREZ: Certainly.

Okay. Lastly, with regard to particular departments being in close proximity to each other, tell me what discussion took place with regard to the relocation of the police units that are currently at the Third and Race location. I believe that Civil Affairs is housed there, the Internal Affairs Bureau is housed there, and a couple others. COMMISSIONER PEREZ: Gun Permits.

Gun Permits and a few others, is that right? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: Yes.

Okay. And was there ever any other discussion or concern expressed with regard to the -- and I understand that Third and Race is in fairly bad shape. COMMISSIONER PEREZ: Yes.

So I understand why 1371 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY people want to leave that location. But now as we're going through a "space chase," as you've indicated, did anyone raise any concern with regard to the Internal Affairs Bureau going to a new location with a number of other police units and the impact that that might have on the ability of the Internal Affairs Unit to conduct their business, which is highly sensitive, in a way that doesn't jeopardize or compromise any of their investigations? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: That is an issue that both Commissioner Neal and members of his Department that were closer to the move, the relocation of the agency, had expressed their desire to try to avoid that. We would have liked to have honored that outrightly. The move of the Police Department's agencies into 990 is permanent for some and temporary for others. And in the case of Civil Affairs, we expect, as has been accommodated in the capital budget, for the renovation of the Wistar School. The Wistar School will have incorporated into it police laboratory services, some police training activity, and is expected to be the future home of 1372 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY at least Internal Affairs, with the agreement of the Police Department.

Well, when do you anticipate -- COMMISSIONER PEREZ: Pardon?

When do you anticipate the Wistar site being completed? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: I believe -- well, it's a '99 request, and it would take about two years to complete, bringing us to 2,000.

So somewhere in 2001, 2002. COMMISSIONER PEREZ: The lease is structured on Spring Garden to allow us -- although it's a 15-year -- we're proposing a 15-year lease, the owner did agree to let us eliminate portions of the space associated with the police agencies as we find a permanent location for them.

Mr. Rizzo, are you asking to be heard at this point?

Yes.

Mr. Nutter, do you mind yielding to Mr. Rizzo for a moment for a 1373 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY follow-up?

Madame Chair, I do not mind yielding.

Thank you.

Thank you. Commissioner Perez based, on the fact that many of these plans were made by Commissioner Neal, and Commissioner Neal's gone, I'd like to appeal to you today to put a hold on anything that would undermine the new Police Commissioner. A, the space that is going to be considered for Internal Affairs, that now I believe that Commissioner Timoney should review this to see if he wants his internal organization there. And, B, any purchases of communications equipment not be awarded until Commissioner Timoney has an opportunity to see if this is going to satisfy his management criteria, his management needs. The purchase of any vehicles, I think we should put a hold on. He'll be here, sworn in, March the 10th, so that anything that affects the Police Department should be put on hold until 1374 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY Commissioner Timoney has an opportunity to review it. COMMISSIONER PEREZ: We'll certainly take that under advisement. I'm not sure that --

No, I don't want it under advisement, Commissioner. I think you owe that to Police Commissioner Timoney. COMMISSIONER PEREZ: Councilman, let me point out that the lease negotiations are not concluded. They are also long term, which means they must come to you, they must come to you for final approval.

Commissioner, I'm not asking you to give me any -- COMMISSIONER PEREZ: Between now and then, I believe there's ample time for the new commissioner's review of our plans. And any adjustments that need to be made, I'm sure that we'll make them.

But, you have to --

Mr. Rizzo, Mr. Rizzo.

Yeah.

If you will permit 1375 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY Mr. Perez to say "where feasible," because there will be some opportunities that we just can't afford the luxury of abrogating contracts because somebody else is coming on. Where it is feasible and where it does not adversely impact on the continuity of those opportunities should be preserved for the new commissioner, and I think I heard Commissioner Perez saying that's what he's willing to do. But he cannot give you a blanket shutdown on all operations until a new man comes. That --

Madame Chairwoman, we're only talking till March 10th.

But I don't know what stage various sensitive negotiations might be in. So if it is feasible, if it is feasible -- if you'll just let us use that kind of language, that gives us enough room to do what we have to do.

That's better than "under advisement," taking it under advisement.

Okay. I always 1376 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY say it better than the Commissioner does. COMMISSIONER PEREZ: I certainly appreciate the clarification. And, again, I just want to remind -- I understand what your concerns are, but --

Commissioner, thank you. We have already cleared it up; don't help me anymore. (Laughter.) COMMISSIONER PEREZ: Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Rizzo, do you yield back to Mr. Nutter?

Yes, Madame Chair.

Thank you, Madame Chair. It is an area in which I have a great amount of concern. At the same time, Commissioner, I do understand that we don't even have a bill over to us yet on the 990 Spring Garden Street location. And I would certainly not anticipate that we're going to receive one prior to the new police commissioner arriving. So I certainly 1377 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY understand that we're not in any imminent danger of something taking place prior to his arrival. Secondly, even if that were the case, if the Council decided not to ratify the lease, you wouldn't be going into the building anyway.

Right, right. COMMISSIONER PEREZ: Well, that's correct.

So notwithstanding what we'd like or who we liked was going away or anything else -- COMMISSIONER PEREZ: That's correct, we would end up stuck in certain places, paying penalty rent, until we find another location.

Right. Okay. I appreciate your responses. I do have a concern about the particular relocation of that unit as it relates to their sensitive wherever they may be. COMMISSIONER PEREZ: Yes, yes.

And whether it was under the decision of current Police Commissioner Neal or whatever the future commissioner may decide, the concern that I have remains the same. And the new commissioner may agree with 1378 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY your plans, and I'll be asking you and him the same questions because I think the fundamental principle is that the Internal Affairs Bureau, given the nature of their situation, should not be forced to be in space, even if it is, by your criteria, considered temporary. Although your temporary is about three to four years. If other police officers are in the same vicinity as the Internal Affairs Bureau, it becomes fairly obvious who is going to Internal Affairs, whether they're a police person or a civilian person, and they are automatically identified as going to that agency, and it will take about five seconds for anyone else to know who that person is and where they were going. That is my concern if we are serious about the future function of the Internal Affairs Bureau in this City. COMMISSIONER PEREZ: Well, one of the ironies of dealing with police space needs, especially unanticipated ones, such as the conditions at Race Street which create this problem is that, again, during my tenure as Commissioner, I don't believe that we ever ended 1379 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY up putting in the space that was selected the agency which first had the problem in the first place within the Police Department. One of the things that we do with them is, a kind of permutation starts to develop where if they tell us that's not the best location or that's not the best fit but we're both fighting a time constraint -- 'cause that's how it usually happens, it's usually a fiscal problem, we gotta out, we gotta take 'em somewhere. What they do is look among their operations for a substitution.

Right, I understand. COMMISSIONER PEREZ: We've done that pretty significantly a number of times, and that's still certainly out there.

Okay. We'll have future opportunities to debate 990 Spring Garden if and when any lease comes over. Madame Chair, I am finished, appreciate the accommodation.

Thank you very much. 1380 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY Next on our list to be heard is Mr. Rizzo.

Thank you, Madame Chair. Commissioner, referring to the space chase, I'm finding it very difficult to find out what's going on with City Hall. I've called -- I had one of the people that work with me call the Department of Public Property, and they refer us to the Managing Director's Office. Could you send to the Chair a plan of what is going to occur with this building? This building's empty, and we're renting space all over the City of Philadelphia while we're going to be in the Land Title Building. What is wrong with this building that's paid for that we don't have to pay any rent on? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: A two-part answer, Councilman. As most of you are aware, the Capital Program Office in its creation inherited the planning responsibility for the future repairs and renovations of City Hall and are still very much a part of that as the representational prime tenant 1381 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY in the building. Yes, it's true that there's a number of spaces, even after the courts have done their shuffling around and moved some of their rented spaces back into City Hall, that some of that has occurred. There are still substantial spaces in the building, which, if we're required to do a complete make-over to comply with the modern code -- I mean, it's the rule that once you touch something too much, all the codes apply. We've estimated that that could be in the range of $300 a square foot, generally speaking. Just -- and that doesn't include the extra effort of historic preservation. This is just walls, floors, and ceilings, because of the nature of the building, because it is one of the largest masonry structures in the world. By comparison, by comparison, we can get a space in a rental building done for 30 or $40 a square foot to accommodate some function. The permanent plan for City Hall is still very much a work in progress, although substantially completed, and I do believe that -- 1382 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY while I don't believe that it's been made available to Councilmembers, there's a discussion copy that has been discussed between the Mayor and Council President Street. And at some point, when the plan is finalized, it will be available.

Well, I would hope that long-term there been some long-term consideration on leases that eventually -- I hope you weren't describing City Hall as a white elephant, and that we may be years in utilizing 12 this very valuable space. 13 I would hope that -- I would hope that 14 there's some long-term plan that's coordinated 15 with the rental of space to bring people back to 16 City Hall once this renovation's done. 17 I mean, how long is this plan to make 18 City Hall a usable building again? How long's it 19 going to -- what do you project? 20 COMMISSIONER PEREZ: The original planning cycle for City Hall was over a 10-year spread and in the range of, I believe, 20, $25 million a year of spending. Your current -- you know, the budget before you on the capital side of this, I think, 1383 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY is at $10 million a year and more focussed on building systems.

I yield to Councilman Cohen, please, Madame Chair.

You stated before in an answer to a question that the Mayor and President Street are discussing this, the working -- the plan in the works. I'm just wondering, are you aware that this is not a one-person body, that there's 12 Members of City Council, that there's 16 others, 13 besides President Street, that have offices in 14 City Hall and are interested in what's going on 15 and are elected by the people? 16 So I'm just suggesting that I think 17 that's a very dangerous modus operandi, to believe that there are only two partners in this, the Mayor and City Council President Street. We know nothing. I've received absolutely no word about anything. I've talked to other Councilmembers; they know nothing about any plans for City Hall. Thank you. And if you have any comment, I -- 1384 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY

Yeah, I agree that City Hall is a precious building. And if we're going to be spending millions of dollars on rental space, that we should really be focussing on what we plan to do. Commissioner, my last question of you. This Administration's been in place for seven years. This plan that you have, when did it first start? In other words, how far are we behind on this project? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: The development of a plan was begun shortly before the Rendell Administration took place, and it continued into its first couple of years. The approach at that time was to investigate the building, you know, the usual consultant in-depth investigation, evaluation, determination of the entire set of problems associated with the building before moving to proposing remedies and then costing out those remedies for those fixes. It was a foregone conclusion that all systems would have to be, you know, substantially or completely replaced. That in the course of 1385 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY doing those systems, that we would be disturbing spaces in the building. And, therefore, there wasn't a pretty significant requirement to plan our way into moving people in and out of their spaces as we went through to do the various capital projects that had been envisioned. But the original vision was a top-down, quadrant-by-quadrant program, which was based on completely vacating a quadrant of the building and then completely renovating a quadrant of the building. And it did include space plans for who got back into the spaces that were renovated as we moved around the four quadrants of the building over an approximately 15-year span. It was a three- to four-year cycle for each building. That was deemed not a financially feasible approach. Even if there were engineering solutions to every problem, every solution was extremely, extremely expensive.

Commissioner, my final comment is, after now more than seven years that this has been in the plan, we don't even have 1386 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY a minimum -- just to basically restate what Councilman Cohen said. Because I have a tough time explaining to people that pay taxes that you're out renting space on Broad Street, and they walk through this building and you could shoot a cannon down some of the corridors and not hit anything. How can you tell the citizens of Philadelphia that you've got this big building here, I think you need to provide me through the Chair how I can explain beyond what you said here today, because I don't buy it that this building can't be rehabbed. Because we live in this building, the Mayor lives in this building. And I'm sure certain other people, even if it were a little bit of a -- not the most desirable place, rather than spend million dollars in leases. Thank you, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER PEREZ: Thank you.

Thank you, Madame Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Rizzo. 1387 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY Commissioner, I think we are leaving an erroneous impression upon this record that we're flying by the seat of our pants, with no 5 comprehensive plan in place. Is that what you mean to leave?

Have there not been -- COMMISSIONER PEREZ: Not at all. The plan, as we referred to it, is a live document. And a number of us over the years, every time we meet, we discuss, review and cost estimate, start reviewing the plan again, ratcheting down that cost, engineering our way down to those most essential repairs that can be done and the soonest.

One of the things that the plan sought to do was to inventory places that were being rented by the City, to determine whether the City was getting its best value, to coordinate and consolidate City services in some buildings, to get out of others, to renegotiate leases so as to get the greatest savings possible, and to maximize the use of buildings where we are. Is that not true? 1388 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY COMMISSIONER PEREZ: That's true. And one of the operating assumptions, although not well articulated in any documents that have been produced, such as the second Latimer Buck Study, is that the Center City space reorganization for our government requirements was never done in absolute disregard of the City Hall prospects. However, the assumption was that the reorganization, the physical reorganization of the courts -- not the operational reorganization of the courts -- would substantially occupy the building, in addition to some agencies possibly staying in the building.

Now, when you say "the building," do you mean City Hall? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: Meaning City Hall. It's a million square foot gross building, which only has -- barely half of the space is considered useful, rentable space by real estate standards.

And of the useful, rentable space, how much of it is presently being used and occupied? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: I don't know that offhand. I'd have to do some arithmetic. 1389 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY

Okay. I believe that in order to get a responsible answer to your critics, you will need to talk about other useful rentable space, how much is presently being used, and what are the best uses for this space, recognizing the need for adjacencies and other considerations -- COMMISSIONER PEREZ: Right.

-- that space occupancy requires of planners. At some point, you will need to put upon the record what, if any, savings were made as a result of consolidation of spaces. I don't know that that's what Mr. Rizzo was asking, but it is not an unreasonable question for people to be asking, Well, why are we renting space if we have space? And I think you need to get an answer, brief and concise, but responsive, answer to that question. COMMISSIONER PEREZ: Thank you.

All right. May I ask a request with respect to --

Madame Chair, may I interrupt? We're beyond the recess time. 1390 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY

Oh, you may. And I thank you for doing so. Ladies and gentlemen --

Madame Chair, may I ask one question?

I'm afraid not. We're already two minutes past the mandatory recess. And if I were going to make an exception for anybody, I would make it for you. However, I really do want to be on the schedule. The President has asked us to recess these hearings until 3 o'clock in preparation for a briefing, which we must attend, which has to do with gas deregulation. So if you are on the schedule to be heard, please consider yourself in recess until 3 o'clock. COMMISSIONER PEREZ: Certainly.

And would the Members of Council remember that we are recessed for the purposes of that briefing, and we will reconvene at 3 o'clock. Thank you. Donna, I'm sorry, but I do want to stay on schedule. We will come back to where we are at 1391 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY o'clock. Thank you, David. 3 (Recessed at 1:30 p.m.) (Reconvened at 3:25 p.m.) - - -

Ladies and gentlemen, we thank you for your patience. The Committee of the Whole is now reconvened. The recess is over, back to hard work. When we recessed, the Commissioner of Public Property and Public Works and his staff were at the table, and they have now resumed. Please proceed with your testimony. Oh, we were on questions, weren't we? Okay, let's see who's next. Mr. Rizzo, you had the floor when we left.

Madame Chair, I think that if I can recall, we were in agreement with your language.

All right, let me ask the stenographer to read back the last paragraph. Can you do that? Is that a problem? (Stenographer indicates to the Chair that the next person to be called upon was to be 1392 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY Councilwoman Miller.)

It was Councilwoman Miller? STENOGRAPHER: Yes.

So you were through?

Yes. We always get mixed up.

You look just alike to me, too. (Laughter.)

Councilwoman Miller, now it's your turn to ask your question.

Good afternoon, how you doing? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: Good afternoon.

I just have one question, and it's pertaining to Town Hall, in Germantown, at the corner of Germantown and Haines. There's a rumor going round the community that someone has put in a request to have it demolished, to make more parking available for the 14th District Police Station. Have you 1393 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY heard this one, or are you familiar with that at all? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: It was my request.