COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC HEARING BEFORE THE COMMITTEE ON LAW AND GOVERNMENT - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Friday, April 16, 1999 10:17 a.m. - - - BILL 990056 - Providing for the submission to the qualified electors of the City of Philadelphia of an amendment to the Educational Supplement to the Philadelphia Home Rule Charter relating to the method of selection and term of office of members of the Board of Education. . . RES. 990066 - Proposing an amendment to the Educational Supplement to the Philadelphia Home Rule Charter relating to the method of selection and term of office of members of the Board of Education. . . (Full text of above contained within body of transcript.) PRESENT: COUNCILMAN DAVID COHEN, Chair COUNCIL PRESIDENT ANNA C. VERNA COUNCILWOMAN AUGUSTA CLARK COUNCILMAN JAMES KENNEY COUNCILWOMAN DONNA REED-MILLER COUNCILMAN MICHAEL A. NUTTER COUNCILMAN ANGEL L. ORTIZ COUNCILMAN FRANK DICICCO COUNCILMAN RICHARD MARIANO COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO - - - VINCENT VARALLO ASSOCIATES, INC. Registered Professional Reporters Eleven Penn Center, Suite 600 Philadelphia, PA 19103 (215) 561-2220 2 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 I N D E X Honorable Edward G. Rendell, Mayor. . . . . . 5 City of Philadelphia Honorable John Perzel, State Representative 51 and PA House Majority Leader *Honorable Allyson Schwartz, State Senator. . 56 Honorable Dwight Evans, State. . . . . . . . 60 Representative and Democratic Mayoral Candidate *Mr. John F. White. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 131 Democratic Mayoral Candidate Mr. John F. Street. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 148 Democratic Mayoral Candidate *Frederick L. Voigt, Executive Director . . . 180 Committee of Seventy *Reverend Robert Shine, Sr. . . . . . . . . . 198 Vice President, Black Clergy of Philadelphia Pastor, Berachah Baptist Church of West Oak Lane *Lorraine Brill, Private Citizen. . . . . . . 228 (*Written testimony also submitted and attached to back of transcript.) 3 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 (Index, cont'd.) Written Testimony attached to back of transcript by the following witnesses who did not make a live appearance at the hearing: Mr. Floyd Alston, President Philadelphia Board of Education Mr. John Claypool, Director Greater Philadelphia First Corporation Ms. Shelly Yanoff, Director Philadelphia Citizens for Children & Youth The League of Women Voters 4 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 P R O C E E D I N G S
The Committee on Law and Government of the City Council of the City of Philadelphia is now in session to hear testimony with respect to Bill No. 990056, and Resolution 7 No. 990066. Would the clerk of the committee -- Miss Chapman, would you please serve as clerk of the committee for today and read the title of both the bill and the resolution.
Bill No. 990056, an ordinance providing for the submission to the qualified electors of the City of Philadelphia of an amendment to the Educational Supplement to the Philadelphia Home Rule Charter relating to the method of selection and term of office of members of the Board of Education, including provisions relating to the educational nominating panel, as approved by the resolution of the City Council; fixing the date of a special election for such purpose; prescribing the form of ballot question to be voted on; and authorizing the appropriate officers to publish notice and to make arrangements for the special election. 5 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 And Resolution No. 990066, proposing an amendment to the Educational Supplement to the Philadelphia Home Rule Charter relating to the method of selection and term of office of members of the Board of Education, including provisions relating to the educational nominating panel, and providing for the submission of the amendment to the electors of Philadelphia.
Thank you. And Mr. Mayor, we're honored by having you present as the first witness. Please proceed and identify yourself for the record, even though you're known to us.
Thank you, Councilman Cohen. I'm Edward G. Rendell, Mayor of the City of Philadelphia. Madam President and other members of the panel and Councilman DiCicco, it is always a pleasure to be here. And this bill and this resolution are very important to me and, I believe, very important to the people of the City of Philadelphia. And I want to be clear at you outset: I support the bill and I support the resolution, with some modifications and one 6 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 general inquiry which I think the panel should explore at length with our own great legislative leader John Perzel, who is here. But let me begin by saying that the lack of both control and accountability that exists as our current educational system is structured is something that has been of great frustration to myself, as mayor. When I became mayor, as you know, because of the current procedure, I had no appointments to the Board of Education. For my first two years as mayor, I worked with a board that I inherited from Mayor Goode. So one half of my first term expired, and I had no one on the board who represented my thinking on the educational issue. In December of my at the end of my second year as mayor, I go to appoint three board members; that is still not close to a working majority of the board. And it wasn't until December of my fourth year as mayor and the last month of my first term -- which could have been my own term as mayor -- that I got the ability to appoint another three board members and, at that point, been responsible for the appointment of six 7 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 of the nine members of the board. So it wasn't until -- literally, I was in the last 30 days of my first term -- that I had appointed a majority of the School Board. And, again, it wasn't until the last 30 days of the first 2 years of my second term that I appointed all the members of the School Board. And it was enormously frustrating. Does it matter? There are people who say, Well, the mayor has enough power and influence that even though he didn't appoint, or she didn't appoint, the School Board members, the mayor can make his or her voice heard. Not necessarily so. Because -- and let me give you the perfect example. Well before I had a majority of control on the Board of Education, Constance Clayton resigned, and we were left with the task of picking a new superintendent. The School Board, at my request, made available the final three candidates, who were interviewed by myself and by the Council President representing the Council. And I interviewed the three candidates, and they're all fine and decent people with good 8 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 educational backgrounds, but I thought -- and this is my clear and convincing judgment at the time -- that David Hornbeck stood out: One, stood out because of the things that he had accomplished in Kentucky and Maryland; and, two, most importantly, stood out because he had what I would describe as almost a fervor, a burning belief, a strongly-held belief that kids in our educational system, all kids in our educational system, could achieve far better results than they were getting. The other two candidates had been in urban systems and sort of had that beaten-down feel that, you know, Well, these are problems that the kids come into our system with all the problems of society on their back, and it's almost too much for us to deal with. So I was convinced that there was a wide gap between David Hornbeck and the other two individuals. Now, leaving aside what the panel thinks of what Superintendent Hornbeck's done for a moment. I was the mayor. I believed there was a wide gap. I knew that we had a situation that was urgent, and I wanted the best person. I could not, by picking up the phone, come up with five 9 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 votes.
And not just by picking up the phone; by calling people, by lobbying directly, indirectly, I could not come up with five votes. You may recall that I did the somewhat extraordinary step of sending a public letter to the nine members of the board urging them to appoint David Hornbeck. , but because I wanted to put pressure on the Board to pick what I thought was clearly the right choice. Now, that's a screwy system. The mayor of the city should not have to do things like that; the mayor of the city should both have control for our educational system but also should have accountability and responsibility for the product of that system. In my reelection in 1995, my reelection campaign, there was no issue raised about the caliber of the Philadelphia schools. My opponent who, you know, not a well-funded opponent but a well-known opponent, who had experience in running in elections, ran a fairly vigorous campaign, but he never raised the issue of education. 10 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 I mean, and you think about that. The issue of education wasn't a significant issue in the reelection of a mayor. And that's wrong, but the reason it wasn't is because people understood that there wasn't direct accountability. So if we are going to make the improvements that I believe are necessary, I think we need to give the mayor control; and with that control, the responsibility and accountability.
-- just to announce presence of a quorum. To my immediate left: Council President Verna, Councilman Ortiz, Councilman Rizzo. To my right: Councilman Nutter. And I'm Councilman David Cohen, Chair of the committee. And Councilwoman Jannie Blackwell is on my right as well.
Thank you. So I am a strong believe in the 11 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 resolution and a strong believer in the ordinance. Let me say two things, though, in the way of caveats. Number one, I disagree slightly with the proposal in the fact that I think this is one where the need for fixed responsibility to be squarely placed on the mayor's shoulders, that I would not submit his appointees to Council confirmation. That creates a mixed message. You know, I look at the areas that I appoint board members where there are Council confirmation and we have shared that responsibility. I would rather it be clear and unambiguous that this is the mayor's School Board. If it achieves results, it is to the mayor's credit; if it fails to make progress, it is to the mayor's detriment. I think we should -- and I say that in all respect, and you know that we have had a terrific relationship, and this is not meant to demean the current members of this Council who I think have done a great job. But I say it because I believe there is such an overwhelming and urgent need to fix responsibility squarely on the mayor's shoulders, that I would not call for Council 12 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 confirmation. And my second caveat and my reference to our great leader John Perzel, it my hope as mayor -- and I have been talking to the governor and talking to Representative Perzel. It is my hope that this year, before the calendar year ends in Harrisburg, that we will see a comprehensive public education bill come out of Harrisburg. That bill may have a lot of things in it, it may have some significant mandated educational reforms in our system, which I think are overdue. It is my fervent hope that it will have at least a formula for the Philadelphia School District to achieve significant funding. I would be more than happy to support some form of oversight out of that comprehensive legislation. And I also believe, again, from my discussions with Representative Perzel and Representative Dwight Evans, that it is the intention of that legislation to do essentially what this proposed ordinance and resolution would do by amending the City Charter. If that is the case, that may be a preferred vehicle rather than to make this a Charter issue. That may be a 13 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 preferred vehicle to achieve the same result. And it is my hope that we will get a comprehensive bill that will examine a lot of the problems facing our educational system and, hopefully, recommend solutions to those problems. And I think that that may be the vehicle for encompassing this goal. That is something I hope that you will explore with Representative Perzel because I think it is very, very important. And, lastly, I would like to submit to this Council -- and I'm sorry I only have one copy, because it's just a -- I thought of it late last night and didn't have a chance to get it copied. I was recently on a plane in about a three-and-three-quarters-hour flight, and I do a lot of my backed up reading that I don't get a chance to do on a daily basis. And I had received a letter from the Manhattan Institute, an organization that I had once spoke before, concerning an interview that the Institute had with Paul G. Vallas. And I don't know if that rings a bell with the members of Council, but Paul G. Vallas was the budget director for the city of Chicago. 14 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 When the Illinois legislature moved to change the educational structure, the laws that governed education for Chicago and basically preempted the previous school board, preempted it, a number of work rules that had been in the union contract and gave the mayor broad authority in conjunction with the governor to deal with the problems of the Chicago School District.
Paul Vallas, who had been, as I said, the budget director for Mayor Daley but had started his postgraduate career as a teacher in the Chicago-area school system, he was put in charge by Mayor Daley as the CEO of the Chicago school system. And the Chicago school system has made measurable administrative advances, but it has also made measurable advances in things like test scores. For three years running, almost similar to us in Philadelphia, they've had rising test scores. They went from having a situation where all but 15 percent of Chicago's public school students fell behind national average in standardized tests to a situation where 40 percent of the Chicago kids are competing at or above the national average, which is marked improvement in a 15 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 short time of three years. They've dropped their truancy rate; their attendance is way up. Of course, they ended social promotion, but they ended social promotion -- and I hope Representative Perzel's listening to this -- because they got additional money from the state to operate summer school programs and remedial programs and after-school programs. And he makes it clear in here that they couldn't have ended social promotion without the additional monies. But he says there are six reasons why the Chicago school system has made the progress that they've made. And I'm not, obviously, going to read all six to you, but I'm going to submit the article, Mr. Chairman, for the record. First, first of all, number one is the issue of governance. In the past, Chicago had an obscure, indirectly appointed school board really somewhat aloof from accountability. And they had a superintendent, and if special-interest groups did net like what the superintendent was doing, they would go to the board or the mayor and try to circumvent the superintendent. 16 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 In Chicago today, Mayor Daley is responsible for the schools, no debate. He appoints a five-person corporate board and a CEO. The CEO, with the consent of the board, appoints everybody else. We have a holy trinity: Daley, the board, and the management team that I had. Before we go public with things, we always reach a consensus, we speak with one voice. So if the schools go bad, there's a political price to pay. The responsibility begins and ends with the mayor. And I would submit to you that what you're about to day and what Representative Perzel wants to do and whichever vehicle we choose to get us to that end result is fine with me, and that is almost an intergovernmental situation that I hope you will work out. But we need this. The next mayor, whoever he or she may be, should begin the term in office with the right to appoint all nine school board members. They should serve -- and this is one other important point. They should serve a term consistent with the mayor's term, but they should be removed, be capable of being removed at the pleasure of the 17 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 mayor. I have made now nine school board appointments, and without getting into names or personalities, one or two maybe of my appointments, they did not share, as it turned out, as time went on, did not share my view of what our educational mission should be. If that occurs, the mayor should not have to wait four years to replace that individual. That individual should serve at the pleasure of the mayor. " If we're going to lay this responsibility at the foot of the mayor, that mayor should have the responsibility to do so and should have the power to effectuate those goals. So with the submission of this to the record, my testimony is concluded.
Thank you very much, Mr. Mayor. Are there any questions? Councilman Nutter?
Thank you. Thank you and good morning, Mr. Mayor. I appreciate you coming this morning. I think 18 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 we're going to have copies made of that so we can get that document back to you. If I can just ask you a couple questions to get further elucidation of your views on a couple issues. I understand the concern that you've expressed, and we've talked before about the Council confirmation issue. As you know, that is an issue that I raised that has not been a part of any of the various studies that have been put forward. And the primary reason I did that is, from my experience at least, as now a legislator in our day-to-day engagement and whether we are involved in public schools or not involved in public schools, ultimately we are involved in public schools. And that, at least from a theoretical perspective, that if something happens, the Council is in a situation, as you know, technically, our sole responsibility is to reauthorize taxes. And we are left in the position of saying, Well, you know, we didn't have anything to do with that board member being over there; the mayor did that. And in the current environment, 19 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 everyone can really point the finger at someone else.
So it was merely an attempt to get some engagement by the Council in the process not to be obstructionist, not to --
No, and I understand that. And, again, I don't have overwhelmingly strong feelings on that. And, you know, if the change came with Council approval required, that would still be an enormous benefit to the citizens. But I think we really ought to -- and again, I recommend that article. I've heard Mr. Vallas speak and he's a very impressive guy. I just think it just has to be laid squarely at the doorstep. You can't let the mayor make an attempt to weasel out of it by saying, Well, I have to compromise with Council on my picks and, you know, to get 'em through, I had to give them three to get six of my own. And you know --
No. And by the way, I 20 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 think it has worked, for example, with SEPTA. I think Janie Newkirk has been -- basically was the desire of the Council, and she's been a fabulous SEPTA appointee.
Let me ask you to other questions. On the issue of -- presently, a person cannot serve more than two full terms which currently are six years. This proposal has that you can't serve more than two full terms, but they would be four years because people come in concurrent to the mayor's term. What, if any, feeling do you have about this is more of a -- this is a governance issue as well -- that the mayor comes in January of 2000, boards members are supposed to be appointed by May 1st of 2000. The current history is, most mayors who run for reelection get reelected in Philadelphia, so it becomes an eight-year term. All those same people get reappointed at the start of the second term, and then the new mayor coming in eight years later, because there's a term limit on the mayor, all of those board members would literally be turned out of office. So you'd now 21 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 have a new mayor and nine new board members. What is your perspective based on that scenario of eliminating term limits for board members such that the new mayor coming in would have the option or the opportunity to reappoint people who have previous service. This is the "continuity-of-government-in-institutional-history argument." Do you have any view on that?
That's a good point. I would not want to see unlimited terms but I think you could keep the same 12-year limit, which would allow a successor mayor to keep some members of the past board to give it a level of continuity. So I would not have any objection if we made it three terms because that is the same 12-year limit that we operate under today.
Okay. There's been some discussion, limited, in the public about whether or not there should be, for lack of better phrase, designated positions on the board; for instance, a certain number of positions to be reserved for people who are parents of public-school students, or positions should be 22 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 reserved for a person that has educational background experience, or a person who has a business or financial training. Do you have any particular perspective on that?
Yeah. Again, I would not do that. I think you would have to rely on the mayor to produce the right type of board for the right time. And there are different times in an institution like the School District's history where a different approach may be needed. I have, because of our financial problems, leaned a little bit more heavily on appointing corporate people than I would have had we had a district that was fully and appropriated funded. But I thought David Levan (ph.) was very important, for example, to give insights into the question of, Were we spending our money wisely, was there waste, were there ways to put more money into the classroom? And also, David Levan had credibility with the legislature as well. I think you have to leave that up to the mayor to try to strike that balance anyway. And if you think of it without specified slots, we 23 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 have basically struck some form of balance. Clearly, should we have a spot for parents, well then, then if you have a spot for parents -- and there's nothing wrong with that -- then do you have a spot for someone or have to make it mandatory that someone be on the board who has had teaching experience in the district, and then do you make it mandatory that someone from a community group, an organization be on the board. And I think if you start defining spots, you will wind up with a board that's locked in and hampers the mayor's ability to have the full range of choice. I think we've got to rely on the fact that the mayor will do that. I do regret not having someone on the board who's directly from a parent organization. And again, if I had the power to replace at will, I would have cured that. I would have loved to put someone like a Christine Davis on the board. But on the other hand, I have tried to make sure that everyone who's on the board either themselves went through our system or has children now in our system.
Mr. Chairman, if I 24 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 can ask one last question. Mr. Mayor, you spoke -- you've mentioned twice this removal at the pleasure of the mayor, and the current proposal in front of us actually does have that provision. I would again like to get your views, though, on any feeling of whether that gives a chilling effect, from your view, to any of the board members about their ability to be independent and make decisions that they think are the right thing and possibly fearful of removal. And what do you think is the mayor's responsibility to then explain such actions?
Again, I think we should keep in mind what our goal is here. Our goal is to give control and accountability jointly to the mayor. I think having the power to remove fosters that control, and I think it is a positive step. I think mayors are going to be reluctant to remove, just as we are to any other boards. We are reluctant to remove. I have discussions with board members -- leaving aside the Board of Education -- with board members that 25 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 I appoint. And I say to them very candidly, I say to them, Look, I'm 99 percent of the decisions that are going to come before you. I am appointing you because I have confidence in your judgment, in your intelligence. You make the decision. But I am the mayor, the people elected me. And if I feel that it is important in the interest of the City and I call you, I expect you to do what I say. Now, I make it clear. And I say, Look, if you don't like that arrangement, no offense, but don't serve on the board. Give me your word. Everyone has given me their word. Not everyone has lived up that to word, and I have removed board members fairly quickly from other boards who have violated that agreement that I reach with them. And we're supposed to have an art commission that has a level of independence but that, in fact, effectuates the basic policies of the administration. And I don't think the School Board should be any different from any other board. The Parking Authority, you know, same thing. That should be the basic policy of the 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 administration. You know, if I wanted to create a friendlier Parking Authority and free parking during the holidays not only downtown but in our neighborhood shopping areas, I don't want a board to vote me down, and I don't think the board should vote me down the, and it doesn't occur in almost any of our other boards, and it certainly shouldn't be the case in the School Board.
Just before I recognize Councilman Ortiz, one question, Mr. Mayor. It's been my understanding that the purpose of term limits is to avoid the aggregation of power, and generally, it applies to chief executives. I don't see board members having that kind of power or the possibility of aggregating that kind of power so as to exclude a mayor from being able to appoint them regardless of what time they've served. Sometimes it's important, I think, to maintain expertise.
Well, I agree, but let 27 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 me say that's one of the reasons I said we should extend it to 12. But there is a burnout factor in virtually everything that we do. And, you know, people are always questioning me now about the wisdom of the two-term limit for mayor, and I say to them that I am in favor of -- certainly, I agree with you, and am in favor of term limits for executives for of a lot of reasons: not only the accumulation of power, but it is a very difficult job, and there is a burnout factor. And I'm not so sure that if I had the ability to serve another four years that I would have if the law allowed me. I'm not so sure I would have been as effective in years 11 and 12 as I think I've been in the earlier years. And I think the School Board is a very difficult board position. It's very much the same as being in Council in the sense that there's constant pressure and constant demands. And I think to get a fresh look and to get people who are just not overwhelmed and burdened by dealing with these problems for 12 years is probably a good period of time. 28 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 But when you think of it, years is a very significant time period. And I don't think you've had any board served who's served for two terms really speak out and say, Gee, you know, I wish I could have served a third six-year term and the system was hampered by not being able to do that. I mean, I think you can make your mark and contribute in a 12-year period.
For obvious reasons, 11 I would appear to have a different point of view 12 with respect to term limits, you know. (Laughter.)
It's different in a legislative area. But the board basically takes executive action. I think the board is more like an executive officeholder, cumulatively.
Mr. Mayor, one of the criticisms of the legislation, and as one of the main proponents of this ordinance, is that it really doesn't go to education with a group educators. This is just cosmetic, it is sleight of hand. You're not dealing with the issues that 29 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 we're facing here in Philadelphia in terms of public schools. Your response to that?
Well, they're correct. This is just one part of the puzzle. Look, the problems facing our educational system are enormously diverse and complex. And, as all of you know, part of that are the problems that face us as a society. If every student entering our school system had two parents who worked and were committed to them achieving in schools, obviously, our educational system would be enormously better. So this is a complex problem that has to be solved on a number of fronts. I don't think anybody in this panel -- or certainly Councilman Nutter -- intended for this legislation to be the be-all and the end-all to fix all of our educational problems. So those people are correct, but I don't think anybody is pretending that this is going to fix all of our problems. It fixes one of our problems, and it is a very important problem. And, again, I would ask those people who don't think that this is 30 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 important to look at the Chicago experience and to read that relatively short interview of Mr. Vallas. I think it can make a significant difference. Can it cure all of our problems? No, which is why I said that I have great hopes that with Representative Perzel's leadership, we are going to be able to get an omnibus educational format out of legislature that will accomplish some of the governor's goals and some of the legislature's goals and some of our goals here as well. But this is not an omnibus reform act; this is narrowly tailored to deal with one portion of a very complex problem.
Let me note presence of Councilman DiCicco who's been present here from the inception of the meeting, and we're very much pleased by that presence. Any other questions? Councilwoman Blackwell?
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good morning, Mr. Mayor. 31 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066
I know that we're not dealing with that knowledge of that people, but I have two questions and I know you answered one in part.
The one about the board composition. It seems to me -- and all of us are in the thinking stages obviously -- that if we change how we do the board -- and I mean, my opinion is that people think coterminous terms is fine, that's my impression -- that maybe we do get a chance to consider who's there. For example, I agree that you have to have some people who understand the financial impact on the board, but I'd always thought, for example, with the number of PHA people in the City, that they ought to have a representative. So do you think it best that we try to do some kind of match with the kind of people that we have on the board in terms of qualifications being submitted to a committee or in some other form?
No, I would hope -- and 32 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 it is my understanding that the legislation did keep the educational nominating panel?
Yeah, and I would certainly recommend that. And, Councilwoman Blackwell, you are right, it would be great to have PHA representation. But if you starting categorizing each of the nine positions, you're going to wind up putting us in a box. For example, in the Art Commission, there is a requirement by charter that not only we have an architect but that we have a landscape architect. Now, good grief, you know, we need people with common sense. And I think that's the same thing on the School Board. So I think it's a very difficult -- in theory, it's sort of appealing. But I think, in implementation, it's very difficult to start drawing lines and creating categories.
Or maybe, given nine members, we could make some part of it. I think, you know, like I said, we think about it and maybe we could do some part of it.
But, again, which 33 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 category? For example, I think it does work on the PHA Board, the requirement that at least one member be a resident, and that the other four board members elect a resident. I think that works well. But that was fairly, you know, clear. That's the one category you should have. But if you start dealing with parents, well, then what about community support groups, what about a PHA representative? I think it just opens the door that I think is impossible for you to shut.
It seems to me that if we are to be a part of some change, though, that Council would like to have more input than we do now in order for change to come about. I mean, we are a separate but equal body. You know, you have the executive and legislative and judicial; we're separate, but we are absolutely equal. And I think that we would like to see that we get something other than a bill if there is a change. It's been a fight. I had a lot of problems being Education Chair those years -- until recently, the Finance Chair -- in asking 34 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 those questions. I was viewed as an enemy because I asked the question. So I would hope that before all of this is over that we have a way to make some changes where Council feels more a part of this -- whether it be a PHA person on the board or two community -- two people who are chosen other than some other way or three people or something. But I think we -- I myself would be for some kind of change. That's my first concern. A second one is, and I know it's not you; I just wanted your opinion. This last block that's concerned me since I read it, about collective bargaining with yourself and the School District as opposed to the way collective bargaining in the traditional sense has gone between the workers and the company. How do you see that, and how will that change things? How does that play out?
I think that is a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing. There hasn't been a teachers contract negotiated and agreed upon in this city for decades where the mayor hasn't signed off. In fact, the PFT now 35 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 makes it a requirement of the contract that the mayor sign the contract. I sign, even though legally, I have no 5 nexus to the bargaining process, PFT is -- both contracts -- I think all three that I have been a party to -- not a party to -- that I've been mayor for I have signed. And all of them are, in fact, negotiated with the mayor's office and the administration being part and parcel of the negotiating team. So whether you want to formalize that or not, I think, really doesn't make much of a difference. The board looks to the mayor for counsel and assistance on a contract, and the mayor has provided that. I think David Cohen, who worked for the administration, really basically negotiated the three teachers contracts that I've been present for.
Mr. Mayor, what would you say to the general argument that the changes suggested in the bill and resolution tend to politicize the educational system? 36 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066
Because politics is how we do business; it's how we do business as a society and it's certainly how we do business as a government that responds to the needs of our people. If we were sitting back at the beginning of time in the City of Philadelphia and we were creating a system, would we have created a system where education, which is so vital to economic development, to quality of life, to everything that our citizens yearn for, where education would be divorced from the political and governance process? Of course not. We would never have done that, you and I wouldn't have done that, this Council and I, if we were deciding from scratch. If you divorce something from the political process, you are isolating it and almost can sign it to the scrap heap. What works in the political process is accountability. Accountability only comes when people have the power to control that process. And we need fixed accountability. 37 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 Politics, in my judgment, shouldn't be a dirty word.
Right. It shouldn't have to be a dirty word. And politicizing the process, making it part of the overall government structure, government control, that's a step in the right direction. That's true reform, in my judgment. So I think we should be careful about labels and names. But politics, again, I mean, what you do is politics, what I do is politics. An important part of being successful at governance is politics. Representative Perzel will tell you that he couldn't achieve the things he achieves in the legislature were he not to take into political consideration what his caucus and what other members of the legislature need. So I don't think there's anything wrong with politics. I think if it leads to accountability and, as Councilman Ortiz said, responsiveness, it is a plus.
Well, I can understand that with respect to financial matters, 38 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 but how about the questions of the curriculum and other policy matters that are involved with schools?
All right, let's look at the current example. For the last four years or three years plus, I have had control, appointed control of the board, I've had more than six members. And you can ask Superintendent Hornbeck, on things like curriculum, I have never tried to intervene. I understand that that is best left to education professionals. However, on a subject of whether we should have magnet schools, whether we should have special admission programs within our schools, whether we should have the high school academies, I did intervene. And you'll remember last year, I actually appeared at a School Board meeting to make my wishes known on that because there was some sentiment among staff to change that, and I thought that system was very, very important for keeping our public education system together for serving the needs of middle class, white and black and Asian and Hispanic parents who wanted to have a system where if their kids achieved and studied 39 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 hard and behaved themselves and attended well, that they could get, you know, into a specialized program. So on that issue, I think the fact that there was a political input was good. But, you know, on curriculum or study, I don't think you'll ever find a mayor who believes in any way that he has the level of expertise to get involved with that -- unlike, for example, the drafting of football players. (Laughter.)
But suppose there were such a mayor? Because there are a lot of public disagreements by different groups in society.
I understand but the answer to that is what Councilman Ortiz suggested: vote 'em out. If we have a mayor who is making significant mistakes by meddling in basic educational doctrine, get rid of him. And that's always been the way our system's worked, and it 40 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 has worked well for this country as a whole and for this city individually.
All right, thank you. Any other questions? Councilman Nutter? Councilwoman Blackwell?
Just one reflection. And that is, compared to the Art Commission, your comment, now I had been since Joan Specter was here, trying to get students, public-school works in these displays, these display booths percent of the time on the 14 second floor and fourth floor. So it's always 15 some elusive butterfly out there that I can't 16 ground. It goes to this art place or it goes to 17 somebody else. 18
The Chair notes the presence of Councilwoman Clark. And Councilwoman Clark, the Chair recognizes you. 41 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066
Forgive Councilwoman Clark, she's been suffering from days from that throat.
Thank you. I'm having a brilliant thought and no 9 way to say it. I hear you say that politics belongs in education, and that without politics, you can't fund it. I couldn't agree with that more. I think the problem that I'm having is, where do you draw the line between politics and funding and advocacy for educational reform?
And officious intermeddling in the curriculum and with things that are better left to the professionals?
But it is hard and I agree with that. But if I wanted to officiously intermeddle on curriculum, I might have the power to do so even now, under the current system. And I don't think this changes that; it just, you know, speeds up when the mayor has the power to do 42 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 that. I think the best answer to that is the voters. But for example -- and I'm not going to ask you to answer this question, but I would opine that most of the Council would agree that when I appeared before the School Board last year to ask to preserve the magnet schools and the special admissions programs, that that was not officious intermeddling; that that was sound policy-making by the mayor.
But Mr. Mayor, but if you had said that you thought that you had the right to set the criteria for who could be admitted --
And I agree that there's a fine line, but there's a fine line, Councilwoman Clark, in basically literally everything we do. I mean, I should not be picking the substance that we use to repave our streets -- I mean, because I don't have the technical 43 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 background to do that. I should make the judgment about whether we can afford a specific substance, but I should not be getting into that level of detail in the Streets Department, either.
But should you make that decision, those people who have the ultimate responsibility do work for you -- unlike the School District, which has a document that separates itself from the City. It was the express intent of the framers of the Educational Supplement to keep you from having to make those fine-line distinctions. I am not as persuaded as you are that politics has served us so well that we should give carte blanche to take over a tender morsel like the school (unintelligible).
Well, again, I don't think you're doing that. What you're doing is expediting the process. Eventually, a mayor -- if he's two-term mayor, and as the Chairman pointed out, that usually happens -- eventually, a mayor gets that level of control anyway. You're just beginning it at the start of the process, and I think the value of fixing accountability and 44 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 control outweighs any downside.
Excuse me, sir. There are parts of this proposal that I do favor. I like the coterminous, okay? I don't think the superintendent ought to be a member of the mayor's cabinet.
The Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter for a point of order.
Councilwoman Clark, just for the record, I think the issue with regard to the superintendent being a part of the mayor's cabinet, you have been overwhelmingly influenced by two months $2 million worth of television advertisements. (Laughter.)
There is nothing in the bill or resolution that has anything to do with the superintendent.
I recognize that. 45 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 I was making a political statement.
But that's not on the bill as well. And all of my testimony was just on this bill and this resolution and on a very narrow concept. And I would agree with you. There should be some distance. But I also believe -- and, again, I don't use -- you weren't here when I read the part of the article from the CEO of the Chicago schools. I also believe that benefits that flow from accountability and control are enormous, and I think we can temper them by not doing some of the things that would be more of a reach. And I would agree with you. But, again, in the end, in the end, the voters will temper and will decide on whether it might be officious intermeddling to some and why it's policy to others, the voters will draw that line. I mean, there are people who didn't think I should have appeared before the School Board to make a plea not to get rid of the special 46 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 admit programs, and they would have labeled that as officious intermeddling. So you're right, it's a very difficult line to draw. And having superintendent as part of the cabinet probably, you know crosses it.
May I just interrupt for a moment to welcome the attendance here of school children from the 3rd-grade class of the Calvary Temple Christian Academy in South Philadelphia, that are accompanied by Lois Mann, their teacher. Would they all stand please. (School children stand for recognition.) (Applause.)
And to the class, you're having an educational lesson in City Council. That's the Mayor of the City of Philadelphia who's testifying before a City Council committee. And we welcome you here and hope you will return. Thank you.
Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman, and if there's nothing else, could I be excused? 47 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066
Mayor, you described your concept on how the board would be appointed and how you would remove a board member that wouldn't be consistent with your policies. What if that were the case in the private sector in the corporate world? Do you believe that that's how board members are hired and fired in the corporate world?
No, although shareholders can get rid of board members. But I don't think that that's necessarily -- and I agree with you, it's different, but I don't think that's necessarily an analogy because the people elect the mayor to be both CEO and chairman of the board. We don't elect the mayor to be just CEO, the mayor's not hired by a board; the mayor is hired by the people to be both chairman and CEO. So I think the analogy -- I understand what you're saying, but I don't think the analogy holds up.
Mayor, could you describe your involvement as the mayor when you 48 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 learned that the School District of Philadelphia wasn't providing textbooks to students? You mentioned how you distance yourself on certain issues from the day-to-day operations of the School District? How did you respond to that?
Well, I picked up the phone and I called the superintendent and I said, Look, I don't care what it costs, spend the necessary money. That's something that is, to me, non-negotiable. Just like music and art is non-negotiable. As long as I'm here, we are going to have music and art courses in the public schools. We are not going to have second-class students. And books, to me, is a non-negotiable item. And, of course, the problem that you uncovered in your latest hearings did not go to the funding issue on books; it went to sort of other administrative issues you.
Did you respond at all, or did you involve yourself on this bus 49 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 attendant issue?
I mean, again, going back to what Councilwoman Clark said, I try not to intermeddle and I try not to micro-manage the district -- anymore than I try to micro-manage the police department. But I do, on certain issues, intervene. For example, I picked up the phone and called Commissioner Timoney, and he assured me that this was being done, and I said, Look, in the March of the protesters on the death penalty of Mumia, I want those protesters to have the ability to march, I don't want them to be impeded. On the other hand, you know, we can't tie up downtown traffic for an entire day, but I do not want them not to feel intimidated or harassed, and they should be subjected to the same rules that any other organization's subjected to -- no more or no 24 less. And I also told the commissioner that I 50 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 wanted to make sure that even though the police line of police officers disagree with the marchers, that there be no expression of displeasure and no conduct that would be unbecoming a police officer. And I asked him to become personally involved. So I don't meddle day to day, but there are certain issues where I believe it's my responsibility to get involved.
Thank you, Mr. Mayor. And we're very pleased that you were available for these questions and answers.
The next witness will be the Honorable John Perzel, who locally is a state representative of the 172nd District but is the Pennsylvania House Majority Leader. And I would suggest that if other 51 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 members of the legislature -- State Representative Dwight Evans and Senator Schwartz want to sit at the table, I think that would be appropriate so we could have the State presence. (Members of State panel come forward.) STATE REP. PERZEL: Thank you very much for having me here this morning. First off, I have been speaking now with Representative Evans for about three years about changing the way the system of education works in the City of Philadelphia. To give accountability to --
Mr. Perzel, may I ask you, just for purposes of the record, to state your name. STATE REP. PERZEL: Sure. My name is John Perzel, P-E-R-Z-E-L. I'm the State Representative from the 172nd Legislative District. I was also elected by my colleagues to be in charge of the Pennsylvania General Assembly. So as majority leader, I am here today. I am not seeking, though, for the entire legislature until I have 102 votes. (Laughter.)
Thank you, 52 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 Mr. Perzel. STATE REP. PERZEL: And I apologize because when you were introducing the mayor, I thought you were referring to Representative Evans here to my right 'cause I thought he was going to be the next mayor or Philadelphia. (Laughter.) STATE REP. PERZEL: So the school children have the opportunity to see two -- at least one of our candidates, and I think I saw John White also here as a candidate for mayor, and I still didn't change over yet, John. Marty didn't get me.
I'm working on it. STATE REP. PERZEL: I know you're working on it. I believe with all of my heart that somehow, some way, you need to be accountability into the school system of Philadelphia. You just listened to the mayor for 45 minutes while he told you that the only thing he really is basically allowed to do is sign a contract that doesn't mean anything, even with his signature on it. That's what he admittedly told you here today. 53 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 So what happens now? Somebody signed a contract with the School District of Philadelphia that, last year, was $50 million short, and they went out and they borrowed the money. This year, by their own admission, they are at least $25 million short. And next year, they will be $200 million short. So unless you can put some accountability and say, This particular person or persons -- whether it be the mayor or whether it be City Council -- is responsible for what's going on there. The buck keeps passing around as about who is responsible for all of this money. The General Assembly, according to Jonathon Saidel, puts 60 percent of the money into the School District of Philadelphia. So we are more than partners with you; we are now becoming overly partners with you. So -- and I do hear constantly about the fact that we don't supply the money that's necessary to run the School District in Philadelphia. And that's nice, but we have absolutely no say whatsoever -- with the exception of hearing people say, Well, the General 54 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 Assembly's not supplying enough money. And I can tell you, as the leader, that there is no additional money coming without some form of changes within the system of the way the School District operates in Philadelphia. If we can show you, through me, through Dwight, and through your elected officials in the General Assembly, unless we can show the other members and the governor that's something's changing, there's no additional funding coming. So you're going to have to live within the means that you have, or you're going to have to change things. And I think that what Councilman Nutter came up with was a very, very good first start, and I think it goes a long way. It goes not all the way, but it goes a long way in straightening out right now what is an accountability problem. Because right now, you can legitimately sit there and say to me that you're not responsible. And the mayor sat here for 45 minutes and said he's not responsible. So who's responsible? And when you have a system like that, then there's no accountability. 55 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 So I agree with the contents of the two bills that are before you here today -- the Council bill and the Council resolution introduced by Councilman Nutter. And I believe that we should be striving more toward what they're doing in Chicago to make sure that every child does better in our Philadelphia public schools. Because in the end, if they can't read and write properly, we all pay. Right now, our prison budget in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania is $1.1 billion. We build one new prison every year. And if a kid can't get out and get a job and read and write properly, they end up making a living somehow. So generally, that "somehow" ends of being going to crime, selling drugs, whatever it takes to feed their family something. So this is something very important for all of us. And at this point in time, I'll turn it over to my colleagues.
Representative Evans, if it's all right with the members of the committee, I think it would be a good idea if the three people go right ahead.
We don't want to 56 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 have a State legislative fight here in the City Council. We will assume that the legislators will work it out between them. And I'm not sure in this body whether a senator outranks a representative. So you'll decide amongst yourselves. Thank you. (Laughter.) SENATOR SCHWARTZ: I'm going to take senatorial privilege here if I may for just a minute. In addition to the fact that some of you know I have an event myself in a few minutes. So I'm sorry, I will have to excuse myself. I have 650 people coming for lunch. And while I'm not cooking, I am expected to be there. So I do want to make a few comments because I have been --
Please identify yourself for the record. SENATOR SCHWARTZ: I'm State Senator Allyson Schwartz. And I do want to agree with much of what has been already said. And with the orientation of the legislation this morning, I do support a change in the governance structure. I 57 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 do support a greater accountability, making sure that the mayor actually does appoint school board members, and that it is clear, both publicly and to the School District and to the City Council, who is really responsible. I think it has been said already several times that it is very important, certainly from the State legislative point of view, but I think also for the public and for parents in Philadelphia, to understand who is actually accountable for the finances and accountable for the management of the School District. Much works well in the School District now, and much needs to be improved on. And I have submitted to you my legislation at the State level, which does make some of these changes. And I do support making these changes -- those that can be made by City Council, those that can be made through the City Charter. Councilman Nutter and I have talked about this. I would be supportive of it happening at the City Council level. But you will need some State action as well. And so I do have legislation that I 58 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 introduced last session. I will be reintroducing it, and I gave you an outline of that. And I am perfectly happy to proceed with that and to work with my colleagues in the House to get this done. I do want to make just another point if I may, and that is to make it very clear that the changes in governance ought to be done in the context of understanding that it is just that -- changes in governance. It will not change funding, it will not automatically draw down additional State dollars. I do hope that it sets the frame work for greater accountability so that we will be able to get Republicans and Democrats from all over the State to be willing to recognize the degree to which Philadelphia schools are improving but need greater investment from the State level. My legislation does have a State oversight component built in as well, which does not have authority as much as oversight and the ability to communicate to the General Assembly and to the governor what progress has been made in the schools and what else needs to be done and what greater degree the State might need to weigh in on 59 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 that. It is not a State take-over; it is an oversight committee. And I'm willing to have discussion about that, if we think that that is useful, if it's useful again in assuring greater accountability and, hopefully, in drawing the State into this discussion about the degree to which the State needs to be a greater partner, I would say, not just in Philadelphia, but across this commonwealth in investing in public education for our kids. So I am happy to answer questions about that. I think that there have been some comments made this morning that might make for some adjustments in the legislation that either I've drafted or Councilman Nutter has drafted in terms of term limits and that kind of thing. My legislation does not speak to term limits but I think that I would be open to seeing some continuity. I think that was a useful comment that there be term limits, that 12 years be considered. So I would hope that Councilman Nutter would be open to that. And I'm happy to continue to work with 60 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 City Council, with the current mayor, with the future mayor, and of course, with my colleagues in the House to get this done and to make it very clear to the public that education has to be a major priority in this city in the future.
And this next mayor's going to have to attend to it, and this next City Council will have to attend to making sure that this public school system does the job it needs to do for all of the kids in Philadelphia. Thank you.
Thank you, Senator. Representative Evans, please identify yourself for the record first. STATE REP. EVANS: Thank you. Mr. Chairman, my name is Dwight Evans, State Representative. I representative the 203rd Legislative District in West Oak Lane. I'd like to just certainly make some observations. Certainly probably outside of yourself, Mr. Chairman, there's probably not been anyone who's been in public office longer than anyone who's in this room. And there's something historical happening today, and I've been in 61 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 public office for years. I have not seen in 19 years where the mayor of the City of Philadelphia, a Republican leader, a Democratic leader, a state senator, and the Councilpeople are discussing in the City of Philadelphia, in an open forum, the direction of education. And, in my view, that in itself is a start. Obviously, we can have the discussion, but the reality of it is, I've said consistently, unless we kind of get into the room and have an open discussion, there's nowhere we're going to go. And we can't talk about Democrat, Republican, liberal, moderate, or conservative. We have to talk about what is in the best interests of the children. And I'd like to give you a little history and lead up to complementing Councilman Michael Nutter for taking his initiative on this level, as well as Councilwoman Jannie Blackwell, when she was Chairperson on the Education Committee. She, too, took a real lead on charter schools. Representative Perzel and I formed an alliance in 1996. And when we formed the alliance 62 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 in 1996 around the issue of schools, we formed it on the basis that we were no longer concerned about what political party we're from or no matter what color we are, but that we knew that something had to happen differently. And I'd like to give you a little history 'cause I've done a lot of research on this particular issue. I've been to Chicago, Cleveland, and now in Detroit. In Chicago, the mayor has accepted, lock, stock and barrel, the political responsibility of what takes place in the schools. He has taken that responsibility and basically said that the buck stop stops with him. In Cleveland, Cleveland Mayor Mike White has also taken the responsibility for what takes place in the schools. Now, in Detroit, Mayor Archer, it was just passed by the legislature. Now there is a reform commission set up in Detroit. They are now moving in that direction. There's no question at a certain time, when our Home Rule Charter was designed and the system was constructed, it may have been appropriate at that particular time. But this is 63 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 1999 and we're going into the 21st century, and I think it is the year of responsibility and it is the year of accountability. And we all have to begin to accept responsibility. I think that the parents of this city rely on us a great deal and hope that we will work together in the interests of all of the children. I've always said that it's not an issue that all schools are bad schools in the City of Philadelphia. I think we know what the good schools are and I think we certainly know what the bad schools are. But I think the challenge has been that we have not been able to figure out a way of how we make sure that student performance happens in all 257 buildings. So the question that I really raise and the fundamental question -- and I disagree with some people who say that governance changes will not in any way affect student performance. You only have to read the Pennsylvania Economy League report that indicates the barriers and the roadblocks that stand in the way of children achieving. Now, we don't like to talk about that 64 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 but I will say this: The teachers' contract and the memorandum of understanding, in my view, is a potential problem.
Now, that's not that I blame the teachers union; I blame mayors and school boards for years that have negotiated contracts that have not been in the interests of the children in terms of how you run and manage the school. And I will consistently say that over and over again until someone really understands that you can have the best principal in the world and the best teacher in the world, but they have to be a labor lawyer to fully understand how to run and to manage what takes place in that school. When you have principals, in my view, who are not fully in charge of what takes place. I found it interesting and John Perzel said that the mayor -- and I think that this question was asked by Chairman Cohen. When Chairman Cohen asked the mayor -- or someone asked about the books, and the mayor said statement where the mayor said what he did is, he made a phone call and he called over to the School District and he said to the School District to put 65 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 some more money in it. But, you know, the money was not the issue; the lack of accountability was the issue. It is because of this Council that you have for years been pushing that the School District do something about books. You went from $9 million. You suggested that they go from $9 million to $24 million -- that's what you have suggested. However, no one put any stipulations of any type of accountability on parents, on students, on teachers, or the superintendent regarding the books. So every year, you would increase the amount of money that went for books, but the reality of it was that there was no check made in the system terms of what took place until this Council -- and I think it was Michael Nutter or Jim Kenney or Donna -- I don't know who it was, but I think it was this time that you finally, you finally said that you wanted strings attached. So my issue and what I'm pointing out to you is that what happens when you come to Harrisburg and when you say that the School District is underfunded, and someone reads in the 66 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 newspaper that you go from $9 million to $24 million on the issue of books and then you say you're underfunded, and you're not even managing what you have. So it gets back to -- the question is yes, this legislation is very appropriate about, one, the appointments. The buck should stop here and the mayor should be held accountable. Two, the fact is that if we build this kind of political consensus in this city for the first time and not have an antagonistic attitude with Harrisburg, not have an attitude that we're going to shut the schools down if Harrisburg doesn't give us more money, that's counterproductive. So in my view, the mayor should be held accountable. The mayor, on the day that the mayor is elected, sworn in, should make all the appointments. The only issue -- I'll say this to you, and this is to Council, and we are both legislators. The only issue I would have with you -- and I sort of had a conversation with Councilman Nutter a little bit about this issue, Councilman Nutter -- is your confirmation 67 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 authority. I would only raise the issue with you that unless people are serious, serious about their authority and not get into the same old political business as usual with confirmation, then it's a joke. But if you're going to play a part on confirmation, you're going to be prepared to bite the bullet, and you're going possible prepared to be at the table because the bottom line is, when you put somebody on the board, they have to have the ability to make decisions. And if it's going to become what I consider -- and I used to be a ward leader, and I know Councilman Cohen's a ward leader and I know President Verna's a ward leader and I know Councilman Nutter's a ward leader -- it cannot be that kind of approach, if cannot be that approach.
If you want to turn around and turn the confirmation into, you know, who has one and who has this and who has that because, I'm telling you, it will be the same thing you have now. So if you're going to have a confirmation process and the mayor's going to make recommendations or you going to accept the 68 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 recommendations, then there has to be a system that is put in place that the buck has to stop at somebody, that everybody takes the confirmation process serious, and it not be something where people play the same old games, and the buck is passed between the mayor and the Council. In the meantime, parents' kids are fall through the cracks while we continue to play politics as usual. So I'm saying to you that I think Councilman Nutter's on the right path. I think we can work out the differences, whatever we have. I think that's a step. The other step of it is I also have legislation along with Majority Leader Perzel that basically will go a lot further 'cause my theory is, until you put more power in the hands of principals, you put teachers on one-year performance contracts. We do deal with property tax long-term -- I want to say that publicly. We do need to change the way schools are funded long-term, move off the dependency. But the point of it is, we got to do both. We got to do academic accountability, we 69 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 got to change the way schools are funded, and we all in this room have to be held accountable -- from Council to Harrisburg. And we've got to stop, we have to stop pointing fingers at each other 'cause we're losing population in this city. So I say to you today, Mr. Chairman and the Councilmen, particularly Councilman Nutter is on the right path in what he's trying to do. I stand here with colleague, Majority Leader Perzel. He and I are 1,000 percent committed to radically -- I mean, not marginally, I want to be clear. He didn't say it, but I will say it -- radically going to change this system. I'm very much determined that we're going to change this public school system so we'd like to have your cooperation, and we can do it better with you working with us rather than us coming from Harrisburg and trying to impose it on you.
Thank you. One brief comment, and I'm always 70 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 reluctant to correct someone who has expressed support for a piece of legislation and given a tremendous amount of praise, but shortly, Representative Evans, you may go back to Harrisburg, and I have to live here. (Laughter.)
So on the book issue, let me make the record clear: I did not solve that problem by myself. I played a minor role in it, and it was the bulk of the Council and many individual members here who raised that issue. And hopefully, we've gotten some better resolution to it. I do have to live amongst my colleagues here. I do thank you for your testimony, and I know that a lot of ideas have been shared here today. Many of them are directly on point with the legislation in front of us, and many of them or prospective ideas that would have a tremendous impact on public education, but many of those items can only be addressed by Harrisburg. The reason I've proposed this matter in the manner that I have is from a basic perspective that we should only ask the State to do for us 71 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 those things that we cannot do ourselves. We do have the ability, through the Educational Home Rule Act, to make some changes. There are other changes that people may want to make that are beyond our scope and our authority. But I do think that the discussion and the raising of those issues is important. Again, part of the reason for today's hearing is, from my perspective at least, is to not only talk about the pending legislation but also to develop open lines of communication between the City and the State -- whether about governance issues or other issues that people may want to talk about. I didn't get a chance to say it when the mayor was at the table, that I was the first to say, when the legislation was introduced and in my discussions with my colleagues, I have no 19 confusion about what this is and what it is not. It will not result in children learning better in classrooms. But if they are not learning better in classrooms, it is at least clearer as to who is responsible for it. So I am not trying to oversell this piece of legislation. It is what it is. It 72 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 changes some things that need to be changed. But this is not radical reform; these are things that have been talked about for many, many years. There are other things that need to be changed, but they are not a part of this particular legislation today. And so I don't want anyone to leave the room thinking that we have solved all the problems of public education whenever this particular hearing ends. I think we have started a process. And, to my recollection -- and Councilman Cohen and certainly Councilwoman Verna and Councilwoman Clark have been here much longer than myself, and they have a greater history about what the relationship, publicly at least, has been between the City Council and the State legislature. But I think that this is a good day and a good thing to have happen, and I look forward to continued discussions about these issues.
Thank you Councilman Nutter. The Chair would like to note the presence of Councilwoman Donna Miller and Councilman James Kenney and Councilman Rick 73 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 Mariano, which raises to 11. Councilman Rick Mariano's a member of the committee. It raises the number of Councilmembers concerned and managed to be here to more than two-thirds of Council in that out of the current members have been 7 present. And we're very pleased by that. 8 I'd like to ask -- President Verna had 9 one question or comment she would like to make. 10
Yes. I 11 personally this think this is a new beginning. 12 For years, I have been saying that both of our 13 legislative bodies certainly should be having a 14 great deal of dialogue -- not only about the 15 School District but about many other issues. Can you tell me -- and I think we should have this ongoing dialogue. Can you tell us when you anticipate the Reform Act to be enacted? Do you see it happening before the end of the year? Or. . STATE REP. EVANS: Well, from my perspective -- I'm not speaking for the majority leader; I'll let him speak for himself, he has control of the members. I am encouraging sooner rather than 74 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 later, in the next 30 to 60 days. We have a budget that we have to pass by June. That's why your legislation is so timely in having both of us here at this particular time. We've been having general discussions. I can't say to you at this point that 102 numbers are there. One of the problems has been -- I'm going to be blunt with you in this room. Blunt in this room, right? We need a consensus from the mayor's office. We need a consensus from -- we need to know in a very definitive way, and if we could get your help with that, we need to know if the mayor is prepared to bite the bullet with us. It's difficult as we go down this path because when we did Act 46, there were people who may not recall, who were somewhat upset with Act 46 because it seemed like "Big Brother" was trying to impose the State's effort. I want to be very clear. My general sense -- and John Perzel can speak for himself. I don't think the governor, nor anybody in the State wants to take over the School District. I want to be clear -- no one wants to take over the 75 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 Philadelphia School District. But I do think that no one in Harrisburg can sit around if individuals make threats like they made last year that they're going to shut the schools down. No one can sit around and accept that. So Act 46 was put in place. No one wants to implement Act 46. What we would much prefer to do is to work with you and the mayor in terms of the changes that you want to see, the changes as what Councilman Nutter is suggesting here, the changes in terms of some things around the school code, some things that was in the Pennsylvania Economy League, some things that was in the Committee of Seventy. One thing I want to give as a little history, and I know Fred Voigt is here. I was there in 1981 when Bill Green suggested what we try to do in the legislature, and we failed. So I recall what took place during that 50-day strike, and I was one of the people who supported that effort in 1981. What I would like to see done, Madam President, is that you, as a group, step forward, 76 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 build some kind of consensus with us. But I want to say this about the consensus. I have said this and I have a comment with the Chairman of this committee. He sometimes may agree with me, but I have said to him, see, I think we have to discuss every education venue, even things like choice. I've said that. We have to discuss that. And I've said that. Councilwoman Jannie Blackwell took a real lead on charter schools, and there are now 12, charter schools and now they're going 12 to go to 25. 13 And the only problem I have when we begin to have this kind of discussion is basically, people say Well, why don't you talk about funding, then we could talk, but we don't to talk about charters and we don't want to talk about choice, we're not going to talk about those issues. Well, you have to understand the political climate that we're operating in in Harrisburg. So it cannot be, in my view, an off-limits discussion because someone doesn't agree. Then either you don't vote for that, you don't vote for that, but you can sit there -- you 77 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 can sit there and say, We're not going to discuss it.
But we're not going to be able to build kind of a resolution to this if we don't discuss it. So to your question, I think in 30, 60 days, there will be something that will happen. But the point of it is, even when that process happens, I would like to have a full discussion with each and every one of you about what's going to happen. But when people tell me up front, Well, Dwight I can't touch that because -- look, I understand about a primary between here and May 18th, I'm clear about that, I'm aware of that. But I also understand that we have a big problem next year: $200 million. The State is not going to raise taxes, the City cannot afford to raise taxes. The State's not going to raise, the City cannot afford to raise taxes. So we have a problem. And we need to understand that we've got to put everything on the table. And that's, Madam President, what I found the most difficult problem in terms of trying to deal with this issue is that people basically don't want to discuss something because they say, Politically, I got 78 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 somebody out there who may hurt me. Well, guess what, we'll have somebody that hurts us even more if we don't step up.
I totally agree with what you've said. And I just want you to know that I not only speak for myself but, as you can see, just about every member of Council is present. And I want to assure you that we are very eager to work with you. And if you want to call meetings, we'll make certain that we'll make the appropriate arrangements. But it's something that concerns all of us, and we're very eager to work with you. STATE REP. PERZEL: I'd like to just make a point that one of the things that we'd like to make sure that occurs is that the School District is held harmless no matter what we do. So the money will still come no matter what changes are made. Representative Evans is right, Councilwoman. We count the votes first. We're six away. When we have the six, we'll run it. 79 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good morning Representative Evans and Majority Leader Perzel. Certainly, I would like to thank you both for your commitment to public education. And I've talked with you both here and certainly privately, and I'm sure that when I say that, that I'm speaking the truth. I believe we're going through growing pains that it will be the better for all of us once we get to the other side. I think that all of us agree that we have reached a point where we need some level of accountability -- certainly more than we have. Any time we can mention it, I mentioned that I've been fighting for years, almost since before I came, when Lou was the Council President, just to try to have school -- public school children either have their essays or artwork displayed in our display cases on the second and fourth floor, and I've been fighting for that for 80 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 some years. So certainly, we agree with that. I'm going to ask you a question. I believe that issues we've dealt with here -- I've introduced resolutions dealing with certainly school violence, and Council adopted a report. We had to even introduce a resolution about starting school in September closer to on-time. We were starting them near Thanksgiving. Now I believe the superintendent lowered it to October, but we got to start to ground running. I mean, we have had hearings on so many things like Ritalin and behavior-altering drugs. As you know, we started talking about Ritalin when nobody had heard of it. So there are a lot of issues that in Council we've tried to talk about. Certainly now we're dealing with books and bus attendants. But I'm curious to know if you have any suggestions. This whole idea of certainly what school boards should look like. I wonder if either of you have any ideas. Certainly I understand that whether we deal with a committee that submits these people to the mayor or to the mayor directly, that doesn't have to mean anything. But whether or not that the people 81 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 should be a composition from different parts of the community or some part of it. For example, I think we should have, as I said, a PHA person. I mean, PHA is a city within a city. How many people do we have, some 80,000 or something? If we have that many residents, it seems to me that we can help their schools and preschools and day care if we have that person. And maybe we have two or three other members who, on some scale, we have some of those. And in another part, out of nine members, have some that represent certainly the business community or the formal banking community or some professionals in money management. Do either of you have -- have you thought about it or do you think that there is some way we ought to consider this that's maybe better than another? STATE REP. EVANS: I think, to your point, Councilwoman, and what I heard when you asked them the question, that could occur under the current system, in my view. If the mayor wanted to put someone from PHA through using the nominating panel. If that was a commitment on the 82 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 part of the mayor, the mayor could put somebody from PHA now. I mean, the way the process works, he gets a number of appointments, and he can maneuver that nominating committee when he wants to maneuver that nominating committee. And if he wanted somebody on there from PHA, the mayor could have taken care of that right now. So what I see lacking -- and I understand -- I understand the motive of your question. That's if there is a commitment. My sense is to your question is that basically, the mayor, the current mayor -- and I'm not questioning if he's committed to education or not. Obviously to the issue you raised, it could have been done, you know, you don't need a change in order to -- you could do that right now.
The mayor could have put somebody on there from PHA if he wanted to put 'em on there now, the mayor could have put that person on there. STATE REP. PERZEL: I'd like to bring something up that I know that you don't really have a lot to do with right now because you're not involved in the governance of the School 83 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 District. Just about five or six weeks ago, Enron came in to the School District of Philadelphia -- this will go back to I thought you ought to be putting more businesslike people on there, not looking at the PHA. But Enron offered the School District $25 million over the next years to pick up the 10 School District's electric contract. And along with that, they were going to put in about 30 to $40 million worth of controls to make sure the lights were all off on time, they would have been automatic lighting, to save money and to actually make money over the course of the contract. Another company, and I'm pretty sure it was PP&G -- I might not be 100 percent right, but can get the company. It was in the newspaper. That company offered them 3 million. Now, you have a chance of 25 million or 3. Now you know which one they took. 3. ) to work with Dwight and find out why they did something like that. 84 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 Because maybe you do have a legitimate gripe to say we should be sending more money but when, internally -- and not you, the School Board. But when they're not looking at opportunities like that, there's something wrong with the system, and somebody ultimately -- and that's the purpose of this legislation -- has got to be held accountable for something like that.
And certainly I believe that if we are going to change the Charter on both levels, then we ought to put in something that provides for input and that certainly -- I mean, changing the term to be coterminous with the mayor's fine, but it's not enough. How often do we change the Charter if we do? If we're going to make these changes, then I think we ought to do something to have it more representative of our needs and to allow some way for input and accountability. STATE REP. EVANS: Well, Councilwoman, I --
Representative, before you answer, if I may tie this into the same question to the majority leader. Why wouldn't the 85 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 mayor have a responsibility now, even though there is nothing written in the law to that effect to inquire into the question you raise? I find it a very interesting question. The mayor indicated in matters where he was concerned, he doesn't hesitate time now to involve himself. I'm very concerned, and I would like to know the answer to that question that you raised. STATE REP. PERZEL: I suppose he could, but I didn't --
I mean, I've learned enough arithmetic to understand the difference between million and 3 million, and $22 million 16 is an awful lot of difference. 17 STATE REP. PERZEL: I saw nothing after 18 they let that contract about anybody saying 19 anything was wrong with that. 20
Well. . . 21 STATE REP. PERZEL: So I'm sure he 22 could have but he chose not to. 23
Representative 24 Evans please. 25 STATE REP. EVANS: Mr. Chairman and 86 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 Councilwoman, look, to me, it's again a question of commitment. And obviously, may it be PHA or may it be a business person, Representative Kathy Manorino (ph.), who is from Councilman Nutter's Councilmatic district, some of you are aware of the Roxborough special admission issue. And I find it strange -- and I don't want to get into that whole discussion again but I find it strange when a legislator has to use threats in order to get someone to listen and understand. Because it seems like nobody's in control, it seems like nobody's in control. You vote for a certain portion of money, we vote for a certain portion of money, and yet we have people over there, and it probably looks embarrassing to the public. You vote for money, we vote for money. And yet, people look at us and they say, like, Why can't people pay attention to what we are saying? Now, this is where I do agree with why the mayor should be held accountable. I think that what has happened historically, we have allowed mayors to get away with, when it's convenient, telling us certain things; and then on 87 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 the other hand, we have not forced this system to work. So we have not forced-- we have not held people feet to the fire, and we allow them to get away and then come tell us one thing and then come tell you another thing and then get away with it.
This is just on Councilwoman Blackwell's point quickly, Councilman Ortiz. I think Councilwoman Blackwell's point about whether in the immediate sense someone from PHA or a representative of the PHA organization -- I believe there's a citywide -- for instance, citywide Tenants Council. In the supplement to the Home Rule Charter, in section 12-206, there's a provision that says, "In the event, no organization, as described in one of the clauses through of subsection b. exists within the city, or in the event there's no such organization, any one of whose officers is a registered voter of the City, the mayor shall appoint the highest-ranking officer who is a registered voter of the City from 88 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 another organization or institution which qualifies under another clause of the subsection." The mayor may be able to take that action now because, as we know, unfortunately, it was announced maybe a month or so ago that the organization Citizens Committee on Public Education in Philadelphia may, in fact, have gone out of business. And I believe that they are a qualifying organization under one of the various clauses 1 through 9. There may other organizations that may be in the same situation. I think it's something that should be looked at and the mayor should explore under the current power that the mayor has. STATE REP. EVANS: You're being generous, Mr. Nutter.
I'm just a nice guy. STATE REP. PERZEL: Councilman, by their own admission, over the next year and a half, they're going to be somewhere around $300 million in the hole.
Right. 89 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 STATE REP. PERZEL: I mean, whether you appoint somebody from the Housing Authority or somebody from business or whoever it is, by their open admission, they can't meet their -- they can't pay people.
I understand. STATE REP. PERZEL: So I mean, I hear what you're saying and I don't have any objection to it, but the problems are deeper than whether or not it's somebody from the Housing Authority sitting on the board. And the can do that now; it's not --
Right, I understand. I was just trying to address the Councilwoman's issue.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm glad to see the two representatives from both sides of the aisle here. I think there's nothing more important, and I think a few of us have been speaking about education and the debate on public schools and the public school 90 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 system. I believe totally and wholeheartedly in the public school system of this country. I believe everything should be discussed. I don't believe in the dismantling by piecemeal basis of the public school system. Now, things have worked in different parts of this country. Chicago, you have seen it. Tony Alvarado in New York has made -- and now he's superintendent of the San Diego school system. He has made the district of East Harlem a model. He asked for accountability from his principals and from his teachers and he got 'em. It was leadership, Dwight. Representative Evans speaks about leadership. It was leadership that was exerted. This is about governance, and I think it's about time that we began to put accountability in the right place. Representative Perzel, you said it very clearly. We have to make sure that the mayor and Council, because we have gone through debates in this Council where we never are held accountable. And we give some good speeches about public 91 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 education. But in the end, we are not the ones responsible for public policy, we're not the ones responsible for making that decision on Enron, for example. STATE REP. PERZEL: I agree.
Once we get over governance, as the mayor said, and get to the substance of public policy and funding and the substance of the educational system. And here, Harrisburg has a responsibility. And you said that we have to take some steps before Harrisburg begins to look at us differently. I don't believe in vouchers, I don't believe in charter schools spreading out all over the city and taking money away from the public school system. I believe that we have to strengthen public school system, and I believe we can do it. It's been done in other cities; I don't see why we're different. But we have here a situation in which we have $100 million right now that the mayor said if we could release that $100 million -- and this Council I think would agree with that -- that that $100 million would go to public education. And 92 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 that's the $100 million that we use for funding the court system, that the Supreme Court has said is the responsibility of the State. And we are now carrying that $100 million out of our operating budget. We need your help in releasing that amount of funding because that's money of the citizens of Philadelphia that we can apply directly to the school system. So let us begin with that one step. You take over the funding of the court system, and we begin applying that money to the deficit that we are going to be facing. My daughter goes to public school. She hasn't had an art teacher or a music teacher because those programs have been cut. She gets an art teacher once a week. We need -- we have cut academic programs out of the system. We need to begin placing back some of those academic programs into the system. I agree, we need to discuss everything on the table. We need to have a debate on public schools. But let us begin fairly. We have $100 million that is the responsibility of the State, the court system. We need that money for the 93 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 City's schools system. Let us begin with that step. ) STATE REP. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, let me say this to you. When you say that the school system is being dismantled, it's already been dismantled. You only have to look -- I listened to you, Councilman. It's already dismantled when you see loss of population. I represent West Oak Lane, East Oak Lane, and Olney, and it borders Cheltenham. And Cheltenham has detectives, Chelten has all kinds of people. And when I hear you make a statement, particularly the statement when you said you're against charter schools, then you're against the idea that Espera, who has a charter -- let me finish, I listened to you, sir. You're again the idea of Espera that has a charter school. Now, why did Espera form and design the charter school? Obviously they formed one 'cause they obviously felt that in the Latino community, that the schools were not meeting their needs. They have a waiting list to get into Espera currently first. 94 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 So I want to be clear. Yes, the way we fund public schools should be a debate. But I think that you need not get away from the fact of the accountability, the way the system is operated, the way it is performed, and nobody's asking those questions -- may it be from books, may it be from teacher accountability, may it be from principal accountability, may it be from parent accountability. So to continue with that same argument, think that if the State magically drops $100 million -- and I've been in the legislature for years. Never, never, never in my 19 years 15 have I seen that type of money come to the City of 16 Philadelphia, even when there was a Democratic 17 governor. See, when there was a Democratic 18 governor for eight years no 100 million came into 19 the City of Philadelphia, and 100 million is not coming. So let's be clear, 100 million is not coming. The question is, how can we put together something -- and I think this needs to be a very honest, blunt discussion.
So when you, as you say right away, you say, "I'm against 95 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 vouchers, I'm against charters," and I hear that and I'm saying to myself, Well, I just had a discussion saying we need to put all these things on the table and you need to recognize that these things are on the table. But right away, I'm just telling you what the political reality is in dealing with Harrisburg.
You still like the bill, right? STATE REP. EVANS: Yes, Councilman.
Don't you think it's great to have this debate? We ought to have it but I'm not sure we ought to have it today on the bill which is much more narrow than the debate that's taking place. So I'd like to say it's a good first round, and I'm hoping we're going to find ways to continue that debate. But there was a specific finance question that I think there ought to be an answer to it.
Mr. Chairman, let me 96 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 just answer him. The proliferation of charters, the proliferation. If you take a charter school as a pilot model, fine, to show examples, but the proliferation, it is taking money away from the public school system. Now, you're going to have two -- and you talk about accountability. I agree, it is accountability -- accountability of the superintendent, accountability of the principals, accountability of the unions, and accountability of us as elected officials. So I supported the charter school for Espera because, obviously, we needed a model to show that kids can learn, that show that you can begin structuring a system. But we can do that, we can do that. If it is shown in other cities that we can do that within the model of public education, and we can do that -- and when I say it's $100 million, it is because right now, that is coming out of our operating budget, we fund the courts. We should not be funding the courts. That's all. STATE REP. PERZEL: Councilman, if that's what you're holding back for, don't bother 97 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 waiting. There's no $100 million that's not coming, so you can talk about it and they can clap until you're blue in the face, because it's a $600 million hole if we pick up the entire court costs. And the courts have come back to us and said that we give them the million, that they will be 8 satisfied that, and that will be the end of the 9 entire problem, and the bill is in the House right 10 now. 11 So if you're going to decide on funding 12 the schools, waiting for a $100 million that's not 13 coming, you're being very foolish and short-sighted.
We're not waiting for that. STATE REP. PERZEL: Well, it's not coming.
Thank you. On that question of charter schools, 98 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 certainly the whole issue of charter schools and vouchers -- and I'm 100 percent for charter schools, which are public schools. The whole issue came up, has arisen because public neighborhood schools are failing. If we didn't have a problem, we wouldn't be here in the beginning. Now, the mere fact that they present the most positive alternative and exciting energized programs in the city that I've seen since I can't remember in my lifetime. And certainly, I spent all last summer creating the charter newsletter because the School District saw fit not to do that since they fight charter schools. And I know this is a side issue, Mr. Chairman, but I didn't start it so I just wanted to respond. I spent my whole last summer creating a reference guide, and I will spend this summer following up on the new nine or then that are going to open so we have a complete reference guide to charter schools. Because our School District saw fit not to do that, so I took it upon myself, as Education Chair, and now certainly I 99 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 support Donna Miller's Chair, and I will do that. But I don't believe that we can sit here and talk against public schools. A charter school's a public school, whether or not we agree with that. We're past that. But maybe, Councilman Ortiz, may I'm wrong because, obviously, the superintendent doesn't think they're public schools either. But, again, I believe that all of this is good because our neighborhood schools are failing, we need a change, we need to have this discussion. And I am hopeful that out of this, and should we change the Charter, that Council gets a little more to say and the State gets a little more to say so that we do have some level of accountability so that on your level and on ours, I don't believe the school superintendent should be able to say, I don't like something and, therefore, I don't have to talk about. Or I won't make a report on it. I don't think that's right. Me, if I were not committed to public education and committed to charter schools, we wouldn't even have a reference in this city. I think that's wrong. 100 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 So, again, I'll get back to the point, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for allowing me the opportunity, but I had to defend these exciting innovative programs called charter schools.
Great. I'm going to try to rule -- I hope it will be effective -- that it's a great debate, but it's not related to the bill, and I think we ought to deal with the issues today on the bill. I think it was a good opening discussion, which we're going to follow up on other occasions. Councilman Kenney.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think that the two distinguished members of the legislature from both sides of the aisle who have -- Representative Perzel, how many years have you been there? STATE REP. PERZEL: 21.
I mean, there's a wealth of institutional knowledge and experience in that body, and they have agreed and they have testified that they are, in general terms, in agreement with this particular piece of 101 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 legislation. So I guess their duty here today is somewhat ended. However, I think it's important and symbolic that the two of these individuals are sitting here at this table today in an effort to educate us -- us being the Council and us being the population of Philadelphia -- to the educational and governmental realities of where they sit. It is very difficult for -- and I have some experience there after spending years 13 working for a state senator, I don't exactly 14 understand the House as much of the Senate, but it is kind of a common thought process. It is very difficult to explain to people or to go and make an argument to people that 60 percent of your budget is provided for by the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, and somehow that's an unfair formula, an unfair scenario. And the other issue is that Representative Evans is dead right when he says that the reluctance and the resistance to discuss options, to discuss all the things that are out there as a possibility is so short-sighted and so 102 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 unfair to the citizens and students of this city, that we will never get to where we want to be. Councilman Ortiz said we need $100 million for the court system. Representative Perzel, who happens to be Majority Leader of the House, says, Don't hold your breath -- in other words, I'm paraphrasing you. STATE REP. PERZEL: You can.
Don't hold your breath. Dr. Hornbeck says, We need $300 million to fix the school system. I would suspect that the same response might be forthcoming in "Don't hold your breath, either." But to go to Harrisburg and to say that unless you give us the $300 million, you're unfair. Worse than that, you're racist. And worse than that, we're going to close the schools unless you give us that money. That is probably the worst lobbying effort I've ever seen in the history of the legislature. Basically what has happened, that well has been so poisoned and so angered the representatives who sit up there, and what they do is, they represent the leadership of those 103 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 caucuses. They may have different opinions than the members of their caucus but they need to articulate those beliefs and opinions of their members or they won't be in leadership. And what they're telling us is that it's a hard sell there to say that considering the funding levels and the percentage of funding that the School District's getting now and the horror stories of waste and abuse, that somehow going up there with a hand out and saying "Give us some more" is going to work. And that's what I think is the biggest failing of this particular superintendent, the lack of recognition of the realities in the arenas with which he deals to try to help the system. And I'm glad they're here today because I want to us get a primer on what it is we have to deal with when it comes to going to Harrisburg to expect and demand more money without being willing, on the other hand, to discuss all the options that are available -- be it vouchers, be it charters, or be it more money for the public schools. And I think that we've wasted probably 104 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 two, three, four years here not recognizing those realities. And that is how we have not served the children of this city the best we can. And that's the end of my speech, but I thank you very much for coming because I think it's been very -- STATE REP. PERZEL: Councilman, Act 46 is --
That doesn't excuse the two gentlemen yet. Councilman Mariano.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm just glad that the two representatives came here today. And as a member of this committee, I'd like to thank them for their honesty and their intestinal fortitude to call it like they see it. And sometimes I think that we live in this little vacuum here -- in fact, I know we live in a little vacuum. So it's refreshing to know that when a superintendent comes to us with his great political naivete tat he doesn't know anything about politics, he just doesn't do it to us; it 105 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 also works up there. So, gentlemen, thank you for coming down. And maybe if we could have more frank discussions like this, we could finally get to the end of this problem before Representative Perzel's in there 40 years, and we could -- 'cause, Dwight, you're getting to years now, right? 9 STATE REP. EVANS: Almost 20 years, 10 yeah, right. 11
I'd like to 14 express my appreciation for having you come today 15 to begin this vital discussion on education. 16 When you left your home today, you knew 17 that there was more than one point of view on 18 public education. We do need to sit and talk and 19 share strongly-held positions which sometimes 20 collide with each other, but this is the forum where they should be hashed out. The only thing that we ought to have in common is a sincere interest in finding and then doing what is best for the school children of Philadelphia. We are politicians of different 106 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 stripes. I don't apologize for that, nor do I expect you to. But sometimes we run against the children instead of on their behalf, and I think we have got -- I am one who has strong feelings about charter schools, vouchers, and how public schools should be funded and supported. But I believe that we ought to have frank, open discussions on it. Maybe you will change my mind to some degree, and hopefully, I get to change yours. But between us, there's enough wisdom, I believe, to make the schools better. The strongest, most vocal advocate of public schools will not tell you that they don't need improving; they do need improving. The question is, shall we do it with a wrecking ball or shall we do it with a scalpel and the fine hand of a surgeon? I think I opt for the surgical approach; I don't think the wrecking ball does it. I would hope that from this beginning, we would have a series of meetings where we sit down, issue by issue, line up what our concerns are, line up yours, line up the resources -- always pointing toward the goal of improving public education, regardless of whose political 107 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 fortune it advances. When we do it in forums like this, sharp one-liners appear to prevail. That's not what we need to do. I'm one who likes one-liners, and you know it. Today, I'm hampered by a bad voice, but my mind is clear and I've heard good things today. I would hope that we would have a succession of these meetings so that the children benefit.
Thank you, Councilwoman. STATE REP. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, could I say something.
Representative Evans. STATE REP. EVANS: I have a lot of respect for the Councilwoman. I have known her for a long time, she's known me for a long time. And she defined it as a surgical approach or a wrecking ball. Probably throughout the decades in the early '80s, I was a more of a surgical approach. In the last five years, I've moved to the approach of a wrecking ball, and the reason I've moved to 108 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 the point of a wrecking ball is because -- I'm not speaking about the elementary school level, and I've heard a lot of discussions on how there are improvements in test scores. But in our high school system, between 9th to 12th grade, we're still having a 50 percent dropout rate. I was at Olney High School last week. Fantastic principal, trying to do the best that she can do under the circumstances that she's working. I was with a minister this morning, and I won't get into his name because he moved to West Chester, Pennsylvania because his wife said, You make a choice. It's either me, and we're not going to experiment with our children anymore. And I've been around, certainly not in elected office as long as you've been around, but I think we're at the wrecking ball stage. And the reason I think we're at the wrecking ball stage is because the surgical approach, in my view, the surgical approach -- and I voted for every single increase that was humanly possible to come to this city for more money, I voted for it all. I stood up on every single issue you can imagine. 109 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 But I have a high school that's in my district called Martin Luther King, named after a person who was a very important person to this world. That school was on the verge of academically distress. You know what that does to the real estate value you know what that does to the real estate value, you know what that does to the particular community? I don't have to tell you; you know what that does. This is not anything I'm making up. And I don't want to paint a brush across every student that goes in that school 'cause I don't want to do that, I don't want to paint a brush across every student, every teacher or the principal, I don't want to do that. But I can tell you something. If people have choice in that particular community, they will not be at Martin Luther King. I hear that on a regular basis, I hear that on a regular basis. I don't make it up, I'm not trying to stand on any political grandstanding. Something radically needs to happen. I've tried the surgical approach for a decade, I've tried. I have tried the surgical approach 110 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 for a decade. It is not moving quick enough in terms of that. And when we keep telling people that you should just be patient, it will be all right, you just don't understand, you got to understand this stuff takes time, there's the social issues, there's the system, and all this stuff. I understand all of that and I've supported all of that. I've supported every health and human service program that is humanly possible. I've support all of that. But I know there's a high school in my district right now that's not even in my district and you go there, and if people got a choice, they're not going to that high school. And so I'm not talking about the elementary schools; I'm talking about the high schools. So, Mr. Chairman, I have the utmost respect for the Councilwoman, but I wanted to put my feelings on the table since you want to talk about how deep-feeling you feel about it. How deep I also feel that it's nice to talk about marginal, but I think you got to go for it.
All right, 111 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 Councilwoman Clark.
There's nothing more radical you can do than operate, okay? I'm not saying to cut near a cancer; I say cut it all out. I'm for a radical approach, but I want it in the hand of a person who knows what he's doing. I don't want some guy who doesn't know what he's doing to swing a wrecking ball up against the building 'cause you're going to get the good and the bad. Take my approach, take a surgeon who knows what he's doing or what she's doing. Go to what is wrong and fix that. Your approach, the radical, kill it all is like what NATO did. They killed some people trying to help 'em. Let's don't do that, let's don't kill some people trying to help them. Let's find what's wrong with the system and fix that part of the system. I don't think there's a lot of difference in what we're saying. Our analogies may be too gross. But I tell you that public education is our last great hope. It and labor unions made the middle class in this country, and 112 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 we have an obligation to find what's wrong with them and fix them, no matter how long it takes and no matter what resources we have to go back to.
Good afternoon. I just want to state, as Chair of this Council's Education Committee, that I look forward to the continued discussions and the collaboration between the local officials and the State officials. I also have a child in public school. And prior to coming to Council, there's always been messages going around that the schools are broke, the schools are this, what's the State's responsibility, what's the City's responsibility? And I think it's time for that to -- I think it's time for people to take a serious look at whose responsibility is whose? And I also said to Dwight, similar to the statement that you made, that prior to Ridge, there were -- the Democrats were in control, and we still did not seem to get the dollars that we 113 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 needed for Philadelphia schools. So I just want to support most of the statements of my colleagues. I do agree somewhat with Councilman Ortiz. And we just need to work harder, meet, revolve -- not meet to meet, but meet towards resolutions to see what we can do to once and for all address the issue of the State's responsibility and action and the City's responsibility and action towards the funding of our public schools. Thank you.
Thank you, Councilwoman Miller. I had a very simple question that has come up a number of times in City Council, and I'm wondering if either or both of you could just give us your thinking. We hear frequently that, except for Philadelphia County, every other county in the State gets special-education funding or gets special transportation for school purposes separately from the regular education funding, that Philadelphia's the only county where that does not occur, where the transportation is considered -- where transportation costs are 114 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 considered as part of the overall education funding. Do you have any knowledge of that? Or would you care to comment in either way? STATE REP. EVANS: No, it's --
We're told because we're a county as well as a city, that there's a special rule that reacts adversely to us. STATE REP. EVANS: The answer is no to that. There's no kind of special Philadelphia rule. The transportation, like what used to be the ESBE formula, it is treated the same in terms of distribution. It is driven by the poverty rate, it is driven by the local tax effort that comes from the locals that drive how much money goes to it. Of the 62 school districts that Philadelphia is a part of in this region, Philadelphia gets 60 percent, the City of Chester gets 65 percent. So of the 62 schools in this region, Chester gets a larger State percentage, Philadelphia is second to Chester in terms of the percentage that it receives of the 62 school 115 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 districts in this region. STATE REP. PERZEL: I think it's also important to understand that that's not a State mandate. If you don't want to provide transportation, you don't have to provide transportation. So it's really up to the locals for the option.
I see. Are you saying, Majority Leader, that other counties do not get special funding for transportation?. STATE REP. PERZEL: There are school districts, not counties themselves, that do not take any transportation money whatsoever and provide no transportation. Some of them are very rural also.
And some of them do get subsidy transportation funding? STATE REP. PERZEL: No, no. Everybody gets treated fairly. It's all done by --
Could I ask you for comment on another issue that has occurred frequently during our local debates. We're told that the State adopted -- I think the legislative body a number of years ago 116 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 adopted a formula for funding education in the various counties. But that about three or four, maybe five years ago, a cap was put on, that if the cap were not applied, that if the formula were fully followed, that the City would receive more funding under that State formula than we currently get, and that the amount involves very large sums? Is there any basis for that? STATE REP. PERZEL: The formula was changed prior to the Republicans becoming in control of the General Assembly. We do have the gentleman that made the changes sitting next to me, and I'm sure that he'll be glad to answer your question.
All right. We don't excuse Democrats from responsibility. STATE REP. EVANS: But let me speak to that since you've --
I was trying to get some clarity in the discussion. STATE REP. EVANS: I know, but let me tell you why the formula was changed. The formula was changed because the 117 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 poor -- districts that was much more poorer than Philadelphia, rural districts, primarily Democratic districts that we needed to address, we changed the formula to try to address those poor school districts. Since the governor at that time was not prepared to raise taxes and we couldn't come up with tax reform, what we did is, we changed the formula to help the poorer districts. Now, what this battle has become, which is rather unfortunate, is this battle has been Philadelphia versus those other poorer school districts. And obviously, if you're in Philadelphia, you'll say that, in this case, Dwight Evans of Philadelphia, you treated us unfair. But if you say to the rest of the State where the poor districts also very poor, which have no tax base, and what we attempted to do was develop something which was called "the foundation approach." What we tried to do was guarantee that every child would receive a certain amount of money. We would have a three-tier approach. That's what tried to do. So we tried to do it with the dollars that we had available since the 118 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 governor was not going to raise taxes. And since he was not going to change in terms of tax reform, that's what we did, we changed it. Now, obviously, the way Philadelphia has always been working, if you're in Philadelphia and you operate, well, you know, Philadelphia had been kind of a benefit. We also did some other special things in Philadelphia when Philadelphia's tax effort was not what it used to be. That's part of the reason why you all did the liquor-by-the-drink tax because your tax effort was like very low. And then you hear the mayor's argument, Well, what taxes you going to suggest to raise? It's like a Catch-22 if you're from Philadelphia. It's like, no, we cannot afford to raise taxes, we cannot afford to raise taxes. But, yes, we got to deal with Harrisburg because they see the same numbers that you see. They see that our local tax effort has been declining and they see that we have not been providing as much money as we should or could to the School District. And then right away, we get accused of our local political leaders are not stepping up. 119 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 So when I keep hearing this argument about it's like unfair to Philadelphia, we have people in Harrisburg say that it's unfair. So that's why I go back, Mr. Chairman, to the issue ultimately that obviously, we do need to change the way schools are funded, we need to do the way Michigan, we need to move away from property taxes and stop having this battle between urban and rural and keep pointing fingers at each other 'cause that's basically all this is about. STATE REP. PERZEL: And it's interesting to note that of the urban districts 14 in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, the local 15 efforts, since you've made it uncomfortable a 16 little bit for us, the lowest tax effort of the 24 17 urban directs is the City of Philadelphia, 18 although it is middle of the pack as far as income 19 and poverty are concerned. So the local effort 20 here is low compared to the others the. 21
I agree with you in 24 terms of changing the matter of funding of the public school system. What chance did that have? 120 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 I mean, what realistic -- where are we on that? Because I think we need to do that, I think that the basis of the way we fund public schools today is wrong. STATE REP. EVANS: I personally think it has zero chance unless we are prepared, in my view, to deal with academic accountability. And one of the things that Majority Leader Perzel and I came up with is the thing about academic -- we don't -- in the State, even when Chester was taken over, which was taken over under Thornburg and then under Casey, it was done on the basis of fiscal; it was not done on the basis of academic. And we don't have a law on the books that basically says if that if a school district is not functioning or a school is not functioning, basically, that school continues to get money, even if the kids cannot read or write, a district still continues to get money. So I think what you see happening in the General Assembly for the first time, at least in the last couple years, particularly when this commission was put together, I think you're now beginning to see all of us asking more questions 121 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 about every year we vote -- and the way it works in Harrisburg, and I thought Councilman Kenney put it correct. What happens is, there's a printout that comes before our caucuses. And what happens with every superintendent is, the only thing the superintendent wants to know is, do I get more money than I got last year? But generally, no accountability questions are asked. We vote on a budget, we approve more money than you got last year, and then the schools go on and people complain to us, and we just on keep voting for it. STATE REP. PERZEL: The problem that you have you -- I mean, mentioned local tax reform. The problem that we -- I live here also, don't come from far away, I came from Mayfair, seven blocks from where Councilman Mariano lives. And the problem that we have collectively is if -- there's two ways to get additional money for the School District. One would be a sales tax. The problem is, we already have that sales tax. The other is a personal income tax. 96 percent personal income tax for the residents. 122 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 So no matter what we ever do with tax reform, if we get it back to the ballot again, to ask other areas what they want to do, our problem is we've already imposed those taxes. So if we allowed you guys, as Councilmembers, to go higher than you are already, instead of 150,000 people leaving over the last years, it would be 300,000 9 people leaving. So holding out hope that that's -- the best chance you have is for us to hold you harmless with anything we do, allow kids to take other alternatives for using the educational system. If they leave, you still get the same amount of money. And let's pray to God that the system gets better than it is right now because I think a lot of you missed it. When Dwight said that one half the kids that start 9th grade fail, they drop out, they don't make it, we can't accept that. You shouldn't accept it, and I don't believe that you do, and we can't accept it. So all we're trying to do is figure some way to make it better because those kids, when they graduate, will make more money over 123 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 their lifetimes and have a better shot at a better job not. We're not looking at destroying the public system. If there's no public system, we all fail. There has to be a public system. But we noticed in Cleveland and in Milwaukee, when there was a little competition, that those public schools got a whole lot better. They started thinking of ways to save money, make sure the kids could read and write, making sure the day care worked better.
Right now, you, because of the way the School District's set up day care, you have $11 million you're spending for approximately $10,000 per kid. It's not your fault, it's not something you set up. But in Milwaukee, anybody that has a child goes to this school, and that's it. So they only need two or three or four or five people to watch all the kids, as opposed to, just in Philadelphia, one at each high school. I mean, that's the way -- I mean, it's got to change, and we're way off your subject. I apologize.
Thank you. Councilman Kenney. 124 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066
Just one point, Mr. Chairman. Representative Perzel, I sit her sometimes over the course of the last seven years and I feel like I was talking to myself often, or that I was out in the desert like John the Baptist. And now you're bringing me in. Your comments here today about what our chances, perhaps our only chance, is something that we've been trying to talk about, a little less than half of the members of this Council, 'cause we haven't been able to get a resolution passed to talk about the options, or to put all the options on the table. I'm hoping today that your message as it's promulgated in this Council and by the media, is that this might be our only chance. And as you go through the issues of wage tax, of sales tax, and of other things that may have been brought to the table, that what is out there now in the way of the governor's plan, with whatever changes or refinements you guys make through that process, is maybe our only chance. 125 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 And we need to recognize that and accept the reality and stop tilting at windmills and hoping for $100 million of the courts or $300 million in new education money. I'm glad you're here today with Representative Evans to give us that message once and for all. STATE REP. PERZEL: Let me say this because it's important. I mean, one thing that you need to do to make a system accountable is, somebody in the system has to be accountable. When I was the manager of Pavio's Restaurant, the owner would call me from Acapulco and tell me, We didn't make any money and that if we didn't make any money by Friday, I was fired. How can you appoint people to be principals of schools and then give them no 18 authority over who's working at that school? And then based on the seniority in the school, that teacher decides to go wherever they want to go. Now, I understand it's the system you have, and I know the Teachers Union is back here, so I don't expect you to agree with me. But you cannot have a principal in charge of a school and say to that person that you better make sure those 126 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 kids read and write, when they have no authority whatsoever to make any change in that school. If you need a lock fixed in a school, you have to call the central union, and it takes four days for them to come out and fix the lock. So what you have is, your principals are paying to fix the locks themselves. In Lincoln High School, you won't fix one window 'cause you got to have ten broken windows. How many kids are going to sit in the classroom where the windows are broken until you get to the minimum number you need of ten before they send a glazer out to fix the window? You can't continue that. It can't continue.
The other issue, and this is something that gets promulgated by the School District and I think is really misleading because they keep on talking about the gap, this amazing gap between what is spent per head on a child in Philadelphia versus what's spent in the five surrounding counties. And one of the things I think that has not being talked about is that the gap is really 127 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 created through the level of real estate taxes that are paid in those communities as opposed to Philadelphia. And I'm not suggesting we raise real estate taxes in Philadelphia because we can't afford it. Again, we'll be pushing people out the door. But in those counties where they're spending 10,000, 11,000 12,000 a kid, the difference, is it not, made up with the local real estate tax? STATE REP. PERZEL: I mean, if you want to look at school districts that are spending less in the suburbs, we can look at William Penn Wallington Swathmore, we can look at Ridley, we can look at Pen Delco. And I have the test results right here. All of them between 3 and 400 points higher, and they're not all totally white schools; there are minority kids in all these schools. They're 3 to 400 points higher and they're spending less. I know you wouldn't expect me to get this out of the Philadelphia Inquirer. It's March 18, 1999. And I had our people give me the scores. So school districts, they're not all 128 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 Radnor. And Radnor gets 400 bucks per student per year, and Philadelphia gets in excess of $3,000 per student per year, about to times -- and I 5 would be willing to bet my home against yours that 6 you wouldn't put the performance of the $400 7 school against the $3,000 school, because you'd 8 lose your home. So I mean, something's wrong. And something's wrong when these suburban school districts listed in the Philadelphia Inquirer -- which I don't think they meant to do because they've been pretty supportive of Mr. Hornbeck's claim that everybody spends more than we do. And then you look at the test results. There's something wrong, there's something wrong. And Dwight said it, you can't leave 50 percent of the kids behind.
Thank you very much. And I want to thank the two witnesses.
Mr. Chairman, I just want to say that I think this testimony has been really very enlightening and certainly a very 129 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 healthy discussion.
I think that we must continue dialogue. I think the legislature and this body should meet periodically, and I think we should be having dialogue about this. I think most of us, and I know all of us are very concerned about the future of the public schools and the system and the direction that we're going. Please, I am begging you, let's get together. Thank you.
Do we have an agreement? Majority Leader Perzel? (Unintelligible, parties speaking over each other.) STATE REP. PERZEL: I've already been down to see the Council President, and at least four members sitting up there right now.
And I think we could do this as a body. I think it would be great, I really do, if the legislature would get together with Councilmembers, and we could speak 130 4/16/99 LAW & GOV'T - Bill 990056, Res. 990066 very openly about what we see as problems and how they can be corrected. STATE REP. PERZEL: You probably have to do it in private, too.
We'll see you next Friday at a.m. Right back here in these 8 chambers. 9 (Laughter.) 10
And I thank you both very, very much. Thank you. STATE REP. EVANS: Thank you. STATE REP. PERZEL: Thank you.
I hate to interrupt the discussion taking place in the back of the room, but I'd like to ask Mr. White to come to the table. And the next person after Mr. White will be President Street.