And in order to have a certified apprenticeship programs, its standards have to be set by the --
It has to meet the requirements of the state. And what that does, Councilman, is that if you're aware of prevailing-wage jobs, when you go on prevailing-wage jobs, if you are an apprentice but you're not registered with the State of Pennsylvania in an approved apprentice program, they have to pay you journeyman wages, even though you're not qualified to receive journeyman wages on prevailing-wage jobs, if your apprentice program's not registered with the State, that's what happens. So our apprentice program is registered with the State so they can pay them the lesser rate for the apprentices. That's how that works. That's where they get their standards.
Okay. Now, let me understand some of the other kind of connections and relationships.
Now, your members, I guess, work for some or all of the 480 contractors?
No. I have signatory to my contract, I have between 50 and 55 contractors in this area.
And that area takes in the five counties and also a number of counties in New Jersey.
All right. So the people you have that -- when you call it "signatory," You have a contract?
Okay. And you have 56 10/16/01 L&I - BILL 010498 the apprenticeship program certified by the State.
So in terms of this -- on , Section 9-2054, Section 2, in the context of this bill and if this were to become the law, then everyone who's working in the industry would have to have the 10,000 hours of the practical experience, the 900 hours of the classroom in order to be able to take the test to get their certificate; is that correct?
So I'm working for a company right now and let's, just for this example, say -- not me. Someone's working for a company that is not a signatory with the union. 57 10/16/01 L&I - BILL 010498
The bill passes. In order for that person to work as a fire suppression person, I guess a couple things then have to happen. That they get a certificate and they have to go through an apprenticeship program regardless of how long they've been working in the industry or the business or what their experience is, or can they get credit for their past experience or how does it work?
Councilman, it's designed to have a grandfather clause so for fitters out there now or people who hold the certificates out there now, they can come right in. Anyone else would have to have the requisite training and the apprenticeship to take the test.
I don't know. There's a number of contractors out there that have people certified and so there may be -- 58 10/16/01 L&I - BILL 010498
That's sort of all -- anybody who does anything. The contractors that would be subject to the bill, I think, would be significantly less.
So whatever that universe, we would have reason to believe that at least one person at each of those companies has a certificate.
That's right. And they would come right in. Anybody else would have to meet these apprenticeship standards. Now, there are union and nonunion apprenticeship programs. Nonunion companies do participate in registered apprenticeship programs with the State of Pennsylvania and they would have to meet these standards. So the people, they would either have to be in a program, or if they weren't in a program, they'd have to get them into a program so they get the requisite training. It's all about 59 10/16/01 L&I - BILL 010498 training and minimum qualification standards before get testing.
The training for a contractor right now, contributions is cents an hour for 11 every man-hour my men work. 12
Tell me about the -- 13 originally, it was 10,000 hours; now you want to 14 propose 8,000 and 800 hours. What does that work 15 out in -- what's the phrase? I don't want to say -- 16 in personnel hours. 17
Roughly, it's about four years. Four years of work, you figure eight hours of schooling every two weeks for an individual and his regular 40 hours a week on the job.
All right, 40 hours a week on the job, 50 weeks, 2,000 hours. So about 60 10/16/01 L&I - BILL 010498 four years.
Okay. So what do you think the universe of people is who would need -- 'cause we know that the people who already have a certificate are going to be grandfathered. You get all of these other people working out there, union, nonunion, who are working who don't have -- what do you think the universe is that we're talking about?
And how many do you think would end up going through your shop? Is that the total universe of people?
Okay. Can you give me some ballpark numbers on -- what's the current size of 692?
We've had a number of women. 61 10/16/01 L&I - BILL 010498 Matter of fact, we're going through our applications right now. We've had a number of women come in to take the test, were accepted, ready to start, then on the day of starting, they decided not to. We meet every requirement. We go out of our way to get women federally and in the City of Philadelphia to bring women, minorities into our local, yes.
Okay. Well, tell me a little bit about that. Now, the 532, does that also cover -- is that the entire union? I mean, you talked about you cover not only Philadelphia, the four counties around us and a little bit of New Jersey?
I cover parts of the five counties in this area. I cover from up above Lumberton to Vineland, New Jersey, with my people.
How many of them do you think are Philadelphia residents?
Over half, over half. Also, I'm a Philadelphia resident. I lived in Juniata 62 10/16/01 L&I - BILL 010498 Park my whole life and I don't intend on moving out of Philadelphia.
In the great 7th Council District. He's got the nicest lawn on the street.
You don't want to give out too much information. Tell me a little about this. As we have a fairly diverse committee here, tell me a little bit about the diversity of the union in terms of its composition.
Tell him a little bit about Congreso de Latinos Unidos. He was one of the first unions to --
Yeah, we were the first union to bring the Congreso de Latinos up to our office. As a matter of fact, we have a number of applicants right now from that group. We have a number of applicants from DAP. We have every other agency that wanted to fill out an explanation.
Would you explain to the committee what you do with them. I mean, you bring people up, you coach them in taking the test, your apprentice instructor sits whoever Congreso or 63 10/16/01 L&I - BILL 010498 DAP sends up.
Well, Congreso de Latino is very, very good. They actually teach their people prior to coming up and they send very qualified people to our school. We have a number of people in our local from different organizations. Our local is open to everyone. We have no -- I want to talk as a sprinkler fitter. I don't look at black or Latino people as minorities; they're sprinkler fitters just like I am, okay, and they have every opportunity in our local to work there.
Mr. Miller, just let me jump on that question there. When Congreso -- 'cause I'm familiar with them. When they send someone up, do they send you women?
This is my own question, but when they send women, do women stick 64 10/16/01 L&I - BILL 010498 with it and take the test?
I mean, you probably ask them, send me all the women you can.
Let me tell you something. If any women -- the federal law says you have to -- if any women come up and take our application, we have our arms open. We need women, we need women.
Well, everybody in here needs women, but that's a question we're -- it's just not an industry -- it's a tough industry. I mean, you said pipes get lighter, but I remember when I was in construction, usually the sprinkler fitters were the guys with the big shoulders. I mean, it's a heavy, heavy business.
Nobody wanted to be a sprinkler fitter because of the lightness of the piping and stuff like that, but we have -- right now, we're going through our application period. Let me give you an example. The size of my local is 500-and-some members.
We put applications out to 65 10/16/01 L&I - BILL 010498 all the appropriate authorities. We had 300 people apply for our apprenticeship, okay, 300 people from all races and creeds and whatever. And by the time everybody filled out all of the applications and all, we're down to somewhere -- and returned all the information -- we're down to about 130 people. Now, I have a 500-man local. What we do is when these guys pass the test or these women pass the test, unlike a lot of other locals, what we do is, if you're on that list, I don't care if that list goes three years, you have a right to come into this local. We take so many every six months according to how you score in the program. And once you pass that test, you're going to be a sprinkler fitter. And that's just the way it is.
Let me see if I got that right. Councilman Ortiz and I take the test, he scores higher than me, he might get in the first or second year, and I'm after him so I may not get in till the third?
What we do is we keep the list for as long as it goes, okay? And then what we'll do is every six months, because we're not a 5,000 member local, we're a smaller local, we take 66 10/16/01 L&I - BILL 010498 between and people every 6 months, and we've been doing that since -- for a number of years.
So you're telling me 5 if Councilwoman Brown comes up tomorrow and passes 6 the test, she gets in in front of Ortiz and I, 7 right? Is that because she's a woman? 8
She still has to 10 score high, though, of course. 11
Exactly. We had a number of our own members send their daughters up, and they went through the whole application process, passing the test, and the day they were starting school, they said no. 19
I'm compelled to do some follow-up questioning. You 67 10/16/01 L&I - BILL 010498 said you had 500 applications, correct?
You had 300 applications, okay. You received them or you spoke to appropriate authorities. Define what that means.
What we do is that by law, we have to send out notice of our tests to all of the different agencies, DAP, Contesso [sic] and so forth and so on. They're all sent out to all of the agencies that by law they have to be sent out to.
Okay. And then at the end of the day, you have 130 applications.
Yes. What happens is that when you come, you pick up the application and fill it out and you return it. Not everybody returns the application when they're due, but the people that return the applications, that's who we're going to test. We're going to test about 130 people.
So the number is really attributed to individuals not returning the applications versus some of the other factors that screen them out. 68 10/16/01 L&I - BILL 010498
Oh, yeah. We don't screen anybody out? What they do is they pick up the applications, and on their applications, they have to have transcripts of the school they went to.
A high school graduate or GED, equivalent to it. They have to be 18.
Any tie-in or linkage with the welfare-to-work programs where most of those are women coming off welfare and they're now required to work? Any linkage to any of those programs?
Offhand, I don't know. My coordinator handles that and sends it out to the appropriate agencies. There's a possibility that it is -- I could find out for you. 69 10/16/01 L&I - BILL 010498
Of the 500 membership, what percentage of that is minority?
I -- I don't know offhand. I'd be only guessing. Maybe percent, something 9 like that. 10
Okay, 11 Mathematician Nutter, how many is that? 12
On that question, let me just say this first, Mr. Miller. Your union, I remember from being in the industry, you had 300 guys till 10 years ago?
So when you took over in 19 -- 70 10/16/01 L&I - BILL 010498
I took over in 2000 but I was a part of the administration from '91.
You almost doubled in size. Now of the new people, that doubled, I would guess, most of your minority and women are from that. They weren't with the old regime because that was a business when the pipe was giant and men didn't want that job.
But as lately coming in, yes, we have -- since I've been taking over, we have a number of minorities, higher probably than the percentage that I talked to you over all the years that we've been around.
And final question. DAP, is that the program associated with Sam (indiscernible)'s organization?
Is that the one where they take 'em right out of the housing developments? Are you involved with that one with the building trades?
We're not involved with the housing developments. 71 10/16/01 L&I - BILL 010498
Could I talk on that? You know this housing project down on Washington Avenue that they did? We're sprinkler fitters.
Here's what happened. What they were doing is that they were taking a person from the community and putting them with sprinkler fitters, okay? That was the biggest load of garbage I've ever seen in my life. They took an individual to go do sprinkler. He's not trained to do sprinkler work, so all's he did was laborer's work, and when the job was over, they got rid of him. That's not right. What they should do is that all of the minority organizations should hook up with the apprentice coordinators, not with the business agency out there. And no one (indiscernible) to get real meat into the matter, and talk to 'em when's the test coming, when's it going to be here? so they don't hear it secondhand, and then they have a career. 72 10/16/01 L&I - BILL 010498 Now what they do is they toss the people away when they do that community stuff. To my opinion, that's not good.
And that's what Congreso de Latinos Unidos does, they coordinate, they (indiscernible), they tutor the people, and they bring you the --
Right. That girl from the Latino, she's aggressive. She comes up, she takes no for an answer [sic], she comes to your executive board meeting, she wants to know when your test is going to be, she wants to know everything, which is great. You don't get nothing unless you're aggressive, and she's aggressive, which I'm impressed with.
And the point person that serves as your linkage with organizations like Congreso and others, what was that title you mentioned?
My training coordinator is Frank Curran (ph.) and his number is 215/673-9565. He's there five days a week. If you have to call at night, I have a class that goes from 6:00 o'clock at 73 10/16/01 L&I - BILL 010498 night to 10:00 o'clock at night. Joe Matthews, okay? Same number. Joe Matthews
One last question, then an information request. The question is, there has been a fair amount of discussion earlier in the record about One Meridian, and I just wanted to kind of conclude that part of the conversation by asking either yourself, Mr. Miller, or Mr. Haigler: Have we had anything, any of that similar or comparable to the One Meridian situation or failure in the past ten years? My recollection is that One Meridian was in 1991?
Ten years later, can you tell me how the landscape has changed or improved? Or have things, from your perspective, stayed the same? 74 10/16/01 L&I - BILL 010498
Well, since the Meridian fire, laws have changed, and since that time, Council -- this Council passed legislation to require sprinkling of all commercial high-rise buildings. We aggressively conducted a program to ensure that those buildings, they applied for permits on a schedule basis. And by December 17th of 1999, all of those buildings had to be sprinklered. We've gone out and we've reinspected those buildings, and those buildings that are classified as high-rise buildings without affidavit to limit their height, they are a sprinklered, to our knowledge. We have not as a department been made aware of any problems similar to the Meridian issue. We have not dealt with any situation similar to the Meridian issue within the past ten years.
A number of buildings in the past ten years, I was a business agent and I worked on the street all the time instead of being in the office. And I can give you a couple of 75 10/16/01 L&I - BILL 010498 for-instances on there. A number of companies that worked on jobs that never hooked sprinkler systems up, I arrived on the job, my contractors had to go in and take over, and they found out that the spring system wasn't hooked up. That was on Cottman Avenue, and that was -- the name of the company was Alpha Fire Protection, which debarred in New Jersey for certain reasons. Also, there's another building that was going up on Delaware Avenue across from George L. Wells Meats -- I think it was called Vegas. Well, I was called down to the job after they were ready to open, and they found out that the sprinkler system wasn't connected, nor were the permits pulled for the job. So the individual asked me to take care of it. I said, Look, I'll send a contractor in -- I don't do anything -- a contractor takes care of that. That's in other places. See, what we do, Councilman, is that sprinkler systems are inspected on different times of the year, and over a period of five years, we have other inspections. The people that go in with the contractors and the men that work there, they go 76 10/16/01 L&I - BILL 010498 in and they find problems with systems. They don't go around and blab it; they go around and they fix the problem and they take care of it. Some of these problems that are fixed is from some shoddy workmanship that, if it wasn't addressed in the inspection, it could have been a problem if there was a fire. And the thing is that with more systems in effect, according to the Meridian thing -- and I foresee down the line that if there's a tragedy in commercial buildings or in residential buildings, they will sprinkle them. That's the reason you need more people to do the inspections, and they have to be trained and qualified to know what to look for in the first place. To give you an example, we bring in people from Licenses and Inspections, and they're new building people, new building code people, and we bring them into our school and we teach 'em certain things about sprinkler systems. We also bring in the Philadelphia Fire Department and bring them into our school and give them training.
We're the experts in this 77 10/16/01 L&I - BILL 010498 field. We have the training that's already built in. And if everybody's playing on that field --
Well, I'm dismayed about the story that you shared with us early about the -- I think you were talking about a relatively new public housing development, with regard to personnel who may have not have had appropriate training, and I guess, Mr. Haigler, I do have to ask, how is it possible that someone could be brought on to a job in that capacity with virtually no training and work on such a critical life-safety system? I mean, how would that be possible?
Again, the person who is responsible, that person is responsible to supervise the work of their employees. That person we assume to be well-trained, well versed, understanding the full requirements of the code, complying with the requirement of the code, doing their quality assurance to make sure that the work is done and the workmanship of the work that's being done is in accordance with the requirements of the code. 78 10/16/01 L&I - BILL 010498 If that person should fail and we are made aware of that, of course, we would take whatever appropriate actions that we need to take against that person or --
Let me just make sure my math is correct. I asked a question earlier with regard to the cost of the training, and I think you indicated that it was cents a person-hour; is 13 that correct? 14
Yes, that's my training, 15 that's my training. And the thing is, it used to be 16 30 cents and we cut it down to 20 cents. But, yes 17 that's my training. 18
With that as the 19 factor, would it be correct that for -- and I know 20 you again want to propose some amendments. So the total cost to either the individual or to the company that the person works for for the training would be, based on that rate, $1600?
Yes, but can I clarify one thing? 79 10/16/01 L&I - BILL 010498
That's no cost to the company, okay? Any fringe benefits that are out there are our wages. Even though that goes into the apprentice training program, that's a collective bargaining agreement that we collectively bargain with our contractor. We believe that's strictly wages for us instead of raises.
Instead of wages, okay, the money that you said the contractor puts up, okay, we don't think that's the contractor, that's our wages. And we take the wages and sacrifice that to training. We put that cents, 30 cents an hour -- 17 it was 30, we cut it down to 20, and as a matter of 18 fact, I'm going to take my training up to 35 cents 19 an hour 'cause that's how important I think training 20 is.
The contractor pays it, but 80 10/16/01 L&I - BILL 010498 that's through our collective-bargaining agreement. And that's a sacrifice from our wages. We could put it in our pocket but we do that.
Okay. My last question is, there was a fair apartment of back-and-forth. I asked some questions, Councilwoman Brown asked some questioned, others Councilmembers may have asked questions about the number of people in the union, the Philadelphia population, surrounding population, some diversity and gender issues. Could you get us a statistical report instead of us just having our little notes scribbled down on a piece of paper? Could you get a statistical report to the chair responding to those particular questions?
There's one other point I want to make. I don't want to seem like I'm knocking L&I. Believe me, I'm not. These guys do a 81 10/16/01 L&I - BILL 010498 great job for what they have.
We appreciate that we. Fight with them ourselves. Mr. Haigler understands.
They do a good job, and the thing is they have resources that they have to have and so forth or whatever. But I'm not knocking them.
One other thing I want to explain is there's a case in Ohio, just one case, if I may. In Ohio, there was a case involving a schoolhouse, okay, last year that what happened was, people that weren't trained installed the sprinkler system and the schoolhouse caught on fire. Thank God, there was no one hurt in that schoolhouse, but if there was children in that schoolhouse, someone would have been hurt. The sprinkler never came on. That's what happened in that schoolhouse. And the thing is, Pennsylvania is not any different than Ohio or anyplace else. And we have to have fire prevention, we have to protect our people in these places, and that's what I wanted to explain.
If a person has their 82 10/16/01 L&I - BILL 010498 certificate, I assume that -- I mean, as in any other job when you have a certain credential or a qualification, does that put them in a slightly better bargaining position in terms of their wage?
If I was a contractor, I would say yes. But I'm not a contractor, okay?
Here's how I look. That doesn't put in us a better bargaining position, economics don't put our local in a better bargaining position; our men put ourself in a better bargaining position.
I understand. I have to assume that, I mean, between a person with a certificate and a person who doesn't have a certificate, obviously, the person with the certificate, just based on the limited knowledge that I have right here, 8,000 of work, 800 hours of classroom, I mean, unless you were asleep during the whole time, you have to have more knowledge, more information, more background, and I mean, logic tells me you're a better person, you should be able to make more money.
Thank you, Councilman Nutter. Any other questions? (No further questions.)
Is there anyone else to testify on this bill? (No response.)
Okay, you witnesses are excused. The clerk will read the title of the next bill.
Bill 010555, an ordinance 16 amending Title 9-2500 of the Philadelphia Code, entitled "Regulation of Businesses, Trades and Professions," by amending the provisions of Section 19 9-618 relating to the sale of spray-paint containers and indelible markers to include the sale of etching acid and to make certain technical changes.
Mr. Haigler had to be excused. (Witness comes forward.)
Spell your name and 84 10/16/01 L&I BILL 010555 come up.
My name is Marty Tuzman and I'm the owner of Jenkintown Building Services, and I've also provided some information and some of the notes I'll touch on now as well as information material and some shots of what acid actually looks like on glass. Very briefly, Jenkintown Building Services has been in business over 65 years and its largest market these days is the downtown market high-rise residential and retail while we also serve the surrounding counties and the general region. Jenkintown began to be called on to remove this acid graffiti from windows over a year ago, prior to the Republican National Convention. A brief history of use of this acid is as a tactic against furrier companies, PETA would apply acid onto the glass of furriers. Later on, it was found very prevalent at the riots in Seattle, Washington, for the World Trade Organization. We began to see it in Philadelphia prior to the Republican National Convention and much more after the Republican National Convention. We saw the ground floors of major 85 10/16/01 L&I BILL 010555 buildings begin to be hit by the acid as well as retail stores and vacant properties attacked very similar to graffiti with the same kind of very personal tags that graffiti vandals use. And we're at this point already identifying those tags very regularly and frequently in the City. We were originally helpless in removing the graffiti and launched an international search on the Web for chemicals and processes. We found a product in Belgium, which we translated to figure out how to use it here and make it operator-friendly. We used it on Commerce Square, where all the ground floor glass had been attacked. The potential of replacing that glass was in excess of $10,000. We wound up charging the customer a little bit over $2500 and were able to remove the acid with the process from the chemical from Belgium. We found it still labor-intensive, in some cases not even cost-effective against the cost of replacing the glass. So we worked more at {indiscernible) the problem. Meanwhile, after the RNC, the problem exploded further in the City, and we found it spreading well beyond the Center City 86 10/16/01 L&I BILL 010555 region into Old City, South Street, Kensington, Castor Avenue, Franklin Mills, etc., etc. Eventually we found equipment from the automotive industry with some old-time chemicals for glass repair, and now we're able to remove all acid, leaving behind no blemish at a fraction of the cost of replacement of glass. We've never seen a problem hit the City like this. Acid graffiti is now showing up all over on the major high-rises right on Market Street and on vacant properties, you know, in any block in the City, from ground floor to high-rise to retailers to vacant properties. It recently has attacked Northeast Philly so aggressively that their blocks were literally on virtually every storefront is hit. Of course, nearly all of the bus shelters in the City have been attacked and many SEPTA buses and train lines themselves. We have developed a database where -- you see some of the pictures there. We have digital pictures where we try to track every acid head. We know at this point the tags. "Dean" is one of the big offenders where we actually see names showing up all over in certain areas of the City. 87 10/16/01 L&I BILL 010555
Well, the name is Dean. You know, we can't identify the individual.
Dean, D-E-A-N. That name is somehow very prevalent in the City. We have, as I said, a database pretty much tracking where we see this, when we see it, and when it attacks our -- in Northeast Philadelphia, we were as recent as one day behind everywhere they were being hit. We are partnering with the Center City District and the Special Service Districts, the Anti-graffiti network, the Managing Director's Office, the police departments, to try to help get a handle of this and identify, and we were one step behind catching somebody recently, and the business owner scolded the kid and said, "You better stop that," you know, and they felt sorry for him and let him go. Our process is very successful to remove the acid but is time-consuming and costly. Some building owners choose to pessimistically leave it on the glass with the futilistic attitude that 88 10/16/01 L&I BILL 010555 they'll hit us again. We are now seeing distinguished retailers and restaurants come to town like Capital Grill McCormick and Schmidt, ING Direct, who quickly get attacked with graffiti and are often discouraged and feel they need to adjust to what business in Philadelphia is like. While our old esteemed retailers like Bailey, Banks & Biddle and J.E. Caldwell Jewelers just accept the blemish and accept the blight and have left tags on buildings on their windows far too long. This offense to our city must be stopped, and we at Jenkintown Building Services strongly support the restricted access to the highly destructive chemical. Respectfully, I'd like to go one step further and suggest that Council consider additional legislation to be considered in the future that also really gets at the root of the problem. We're able to apply a film coating, and you all have samples of that film coating there, a film protection to windows that completely deter any attack of the acid on the glass. When acid is applied to this film, it has no effect at all. Additionally, this film 89 10/16/01 L&I BILL 010555 protects against scratches on the glass. Scratches are not addressed in this bill -- that's often called "scratchiti". And scratching glass is a form of graffiti that's been around much longer, and it's all over the City. The film protects the glass from being scratched As well. When attacked, this film can just be removed and replaced at a fraction of the total cost of glass replacement. We ask City Council and other legislation to consider matching costs with business owners on this film as a deterrent and preventive measure deterring vandals and eliminating -- reducing the economic impact of this graffiti damage. It is effective against acid attacks on glass as well as scratched glass. We think the first step is restricting access to the chemicals by the measure being considered by Council at this point, but the larger picture and requirement is to protect against the glass by the application of this film. It's a blight that has been accepted in our city far too long, and the application of film would eliminate the problem of both the acid attacking the glass as well as the scratching on buildings throughout the 90 10/16/01 L&I BILL 010555 City. Thank you very much