Thank you. Councilman Rizzo has a question and then Councilman DiCicco.
Sir, not being familiar with the actual process, when this vandalism this crime is committed, could you describe -- you know, I know how graffiti is installed with magic markers, but how is this applied? Is it with a spray can, is it brushed on? What are we talking about here?
I'm sorry that we didn't bring it to Council today, but we have bottles of this acid that we can just go into any store and buy. The acid is the same process that an artist uses to see make beautiful designs on glassware. So hydrofluoric acid is the operative element in the glass, in the chemical, mixed with some other agents so that it's very user-friendly for anybody to be able to apply this acid onto glass. Normally, it's in a bottle and there's a swab, we think, very similar to the swab that's used to apply a shoe polish. You apply it onto glass. The way it's normally done for an artist is they 91 10/16/01 L&I BILL 010555 protect certain areas, make the design they want to apply, apply the acid over the entire film and the glass, and it etches the glass, and you take the film off and the film leaves the glass clear in those areas. So this product is available and accessible in art stores throughout the City. Anybody -- I imagine a 14-year-old, a 12-year-olds, anybody can go up to an art store -- Pearl Art Supply on South Street is one of the stores that carries it. Anyone can go in and buy the product. And very similar, like I say, to a shoe polish, you're able to swab your tag onto glass.
Without a protected surface, a plain piece of plate, how long do you have to wash it off? If you had a garden hose, could you wash it off within 15, minutes and not 19 have damage? 20
Well, we know that the product that they're using is cut with something because the product that we buy from the store is a much thicker paste, like a shoe polish, so there must be a liquid that --
Excuse me, thank you. 92 10/16/01 L&I BILL 010555 Councilman Rizzo, I'm sorry to cut across your question. Sir, you said you know that the product whoever uses is cut with something.
I would imagine that it's either -- we have not found anybody with it. What we know -- we have not found a graffiti vandal certainly with possession of it in his hands so that I could do a chemical analysis of it.
Do you think they cut it with something that enhances it?
It certainly liquefies it. If you look at some of those photographs -- the colors, of course, are better than the black and white -- there is a rundown effect on them. And so we know that it's liquefied somehow. Either it's cut with a little bit of water to make it easier to apply or it's cut with another agent.
We know that for the most 93 10/16/01 L&I BILL 010555 part, the easy access to this chemical is -- and I believe that the Police Department has found bottles of this particular brand chemical made by a company in New Jersey called Armor Etching. And --
Would you repeat that for Councilman Nutter, the name of the brand and company.
I believe it's Armor Etching from Jersey. We could bring Council a sample of what we have and what the Police Department has also identified as being the active agent.
That's okay. That was important to hear that. So I follow you now, this vandalism occurs, and how quickly can it be removed without damaging a raw window?
Well, it's an etching process that's an acting process, and the quicker that it's rinsed, the less damage to the glass and the less effect. It's pasty enough such that it bonds to the glass and doesn't completely wash down other than, obviously, as you've seen in the photos, a little 94 10/16/01 L&I BILL 010555 bit of washdown on the product. So that the longer it's left on, the more of a effect on glass. We can literally run our fingers over the glass and in some cases feel a significant ridge where it has attacked the glass.
So until this problem's resolved, if you own a business and you arrive in the morning, an ideal situation would be to wash it off or make an effort to wash it off as quickly as possible? Or would the damage already have occurred?
My guess is that the damage has probably -- physically if you were to wash it in 15 to 20 minutes, you might see a very light line, and if you got to it in an hour, you might see most of the damage done, and if you got to it in two, three hours, my guess is that most of it would have evaporated, and you would just come and find what looks like, you know, a milky whitewash paint, and many people feel that it's just some kind of paint on the glass, and they can just take it off. It looks like a swab so it could look like a painted brush mark, but it's attacked the glass. So we find people scraping it off using sanders, using all 95 10/16/01 L&I BILL 010555 kinds of chemicals to try to remove it. You literally have to buff off the top layers of glass. And I would guess the active work is an hour or less.
Has this moved to motor vehicles? Have you heard of any of this occurring to vehicles, windshields or rear windows?
No. We know that it's hit the buses, we know that it's hit the bus shelters, and we know that, you know, it's hit all kinds of stores throughout the City, but there's been nothing that we've heard of hitting cars.
Councilman? Sir, what is the average cost to remove the etching material once it's on, if you don't have to replace the window or the bus shelter panel completely? I'm sure there's a certain amount of damage that could be done that it's actually more cost-efficient to take panel out and put a new piece of glass in, but if you have to remove it, could you give me a generally idea of what the costs involved are?
Sure. The variables are just 96 10/16/01 L&I BILL 010555 few. One is how thickly applied it may have been, and literally you can run finger over it and feel how deeply it's in the glass. You have to go down much further into the glass to remove it. The next is, of course, how much area is covered, of course, but also whether it's gone right up to the edges of the glass. The machine that you see us use is, you know, a radius of (indiscernible). You know, it can only come so close to the end of the glass so that we go to a very fine piece like this, which takes much longer. Having said that, the average hit, you know, which may be a couple square feet, might be 250, 300, 350, 400, depending on how much it's dripped down, how far it's gone. And we are always facing the cost-effectiveness of replacing the panel versus --
Is the cost involved in removing this based on an hourly figure? Again, I understand it may vary, depending on the amount of the etching that has been placed on the window and how deep it is, but is there a general number like what you would charge per hour? 97 10/16/01 L&I BILL 010555
We generally -- there's a fair amount of chemicals, there's very expensive machinery involved.
Your charge to the client is roughly 48, 50 bucks an hour/
And we're averaging 4, 5, 6,7 hours on the spot, depending on what's involved in it.
Mr. Tuzman, I just have two questions, I think. First, we have a definition here of the etching acid. You've made reference on a couple of occasions, I believe, one, to hydrofluoric acid, you've made reference to unknown chemicals, and you've made reference to the cutting of or -- I mean, which is, as best I can tell, is generally a drug paraphernalia term of art, 98 10/16/01 L&I BILL 010555 where a combination of substances are being used to either enhance or dilute the effect of the main chemical or substance. What I'm trying to figure out is for the store owner, I'm virtually certain that I was around for the spray-paint containers and indelible markers, and in that case, at least, I mean, I think everyone pretty much knows what a spray-paint container is or an indelible marker. They were very easily identified, you knew what they were, people put them behind the glass, and that ended that story. It doesn't mean we've eradicated graffiti, but we've certainly made it more difficult. What I'm not absolutely certain on is for the people who are going to have to make whatever adjustment they have to make and put whatever they need to put behind the counter that this definition provides enough information or whether the definition could possibly be enhanced either with some examples, technical terms, or something else that lends the person who legitimately want to be in compliance but is, you know, either your a mom-and-pop hardware store or, you know, some big-box retailer that's got a million products. 99 10/16/01 L&I BILL 010555 How do you know which ones do this kind of damage if you don't either use some brand names or some of the chemical names that essentially says any of these things that have such-and-such as a base or has certain chemicals that are its components or elements or something like that. I'm concerned that we provide as much information and disclosure for the people who are going to be subject to this as well as, quite frankly, alerting the public that you're not going to be able to just walk into a store and buy these particular products. You gave a name of one, and I'm sure there are others out there. So can you give me some sense of -- you know, are there some set of components or series of chemicals that really qualify as the damaging components that make this liquid a cream or paste or a similar substance the danger that we're trying to prevent?
To my understanding, and I have certainly not searched the market for every place this product surfaces, generically, it's a glass-etching product. Generically, hydrofluoric acid component is usually the active ingredient in 100 10/16/01 L&I BILL 010555 it. There are at least a couple of popular brands out there. We know that -- I believe it's Armor Etch that is the most prevalent one. We could certainly get Council more information on that. I believe that certainly hydrofluoric acid exists in its purest state and there are many restrictions for one's access to that acid, nitric acid, you know, all kinds of acids, hydrochloric acid, etc. My sense is that the restriction that applies to them that doesn't allow you and me to just walk off the street to a major chemical distributor already provides restrictions. The problem is that the product we're looking at normally is found in the arts supply store normally under glass etchant generically as a product. Finding and providing more information to you, I'd be glad to work with the Police Department and with the Center City District and with Tom Conway and Russ (indiscernible) from the Managing Director's Office and the anti-graffiti network, all of whom, you know, we've all been working together to try to identify the problem and to identify the source. 101 10/16/01 L&I BILL 010555
I think my other questions is probably more for Mr. Haigler with regard to enforcement and what, if any, penalty exists. I know that in Section 3, there's a prohibited conduct for people, and all of them seem to revolve around either selling or transferring or offering. I was intrigued as to what is the penalty for actually doing this stuff, the act or the destruction. That could be in another part of the code under this general section, and I just wonder whether we're amending that particular section in terms of penalties for people who actually engage in the conduct.
Mr. Haigler, you want to try to help Councilman Nutter with that.
Our penalties that we have in place are code enforcement type penalties, but for the actual use, that would be a police matter, that would be something that would be subject to crimes code or police issue. That's not something that -- 102 10/16/01 L&I BILL 010555
Any more questions for either of these witnesses? Mr. Haigler, do you want to read your testimony. Mr. Haigler, every time you come in here, I'm, like, amazed. You're a fountain of knowledge. Now you know about scratchiti and you walk around with all of this knowledge. It's a scary thought.
Good day. I'm Otis Haigler Jr., Regulatory Affairs Manager for the Department of Licenses and Inspections. Today I'm here to provide testimony on Bill 010555, which, if enacted, will regulate the purchase and use of etching acid. The proposed amendment to Title 9, Section 9-6-18, as etching acid to the list of materials which 103 10/16/01 L&I BILL 010555 require greater monitoring due to improper use by minors and others, causing damage to property and contributing to blight, the Department has been successful in the past with its enforcement of the current requirements of Section 9-6-18, regulating the sale of spray-paint containers and indelible markers. The Department, therefore, fully supports the enactment of Bill 010555 and is prepared to enforce the provision once it becomes law.
Thank you, Mr. Haigler. There are no questions for Mr. Haigler from the committee. Seeing none, that's it for this bill. Now, Bill No. 010257 is being held at the request of the sponsor. - - - 104 10/16/01 L&I COMMITTEE - PUBLIC MEETING
We're going to move from the public hearing and into the public meeting The Chair recognizes Councilman Clarke for a motion on Bill No. 0105555
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I make a motion that Bill No. 010555 be reported out of committee with a favorable recommendation and a suspension of the rules as to be reported at our next session of Council. (Duly seconded.)
All in favor, aye? No opposed, so 010555 gets voted out with a favorable recommendation. The Chair recognizes Councilman Clarke for a motion on Bill 010498.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move that Bill No. 010498 be reported out of committee with a favorable recommendation and with request for a suspension of the rules so as to be reported at our next session of Council.
Question. Mr. Chairman, I thought we heard testimony in the hearing on this bill that there was an interest in 105 10/16/01 L&I COMMITTEE - PUBLIC MEETING possible amendments?
We're going to hold that bill after we get it out of here and we're going to meet with the Administration and amend it before we bring it in front of you again, so I guarantee you there will be an amendment.
The motion has been made and seconded. All those in favor of Bill No. 0100498, say aye. Opposed? No opposed, so that passes. This concludes public hearing on Licenses and Inspections. (Proceedings end as 12:12 p.m.) - - - 106 CERTIFICATE I HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing proceedings of the Council of the City of Philadelphia's meeting of the Council Committee on Licenses and Inspections of Tuesday, October 16, 2001, are contained fully and accurately in the stenographic notes taken by me upon, and that this is a true and correct transcript of same. RE: Bill No.'s 010498, 010555 _______________________________, Josephine Cardillo Registered Professional Reporter and Notary Public (The foregoing certification of this transcript does not apply to any reproduction of the same by any means, unless under the direct control and/or supervision of the certifying reporter.)