Without the laborers, if 19 you look at the total skilled hours, it's 21 20 percent. And the laborers' hours are 69 percent. 21
I see that. But I think the question was, when you take the laborers' hours of 162 divided by the total hours of 451, it's about 36 percent of the total is from laborers. Okay. Let me ask a couple questions. 66 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238 First, Ms. Young, I want to go back to something that you said that I was quite intriguing. You gave the impression on the record that somehow, the more work there was throughout the City, the less opportunity there is for either African Americans and females. I'd like to better understand that. Is that what you were saying?
For each project. So that if we've got five construction projects going on simultaneously in the City, the availability for any particular trade and employment on each one of those is reduced because of the competition to have minorities on all of those projects.
To the hundred or so who are sitting around waiting for a phone call.
Exactly. And what we have found out, as Councilwoman Tasco said, in some instances, they may move the same person. 67 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238
And so it doesn't increase the numbers at all. Just that person gets more hours. And then you've got all this pool waiting by the phone, as you said.
Which is one of the reasons they went to counting hours, just to make sure that we weren't just counting bodies.
Let me ask this question about the EOP. At what point were you involved in the development of the EOP? Was that after Council had approved the overall project -- and Councilman Goode and I have had some conversation -- it may not seem like that long ago, but December of 2000 for us, at least in the legislative world, is a couple thousand bills ago and many things happen, daytime, nighttime and other times trying to deal with these things. My vague recollection of this is that there was discussion about an EOP at the time of the 68 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238 passage of the legislation, but the EOP was not complete. But there were, I believe, some general parameters that we were looking at, but it needed to be fully developed. And that the stadium projects were approved by Council, the EOP was subsequently worked on and developed -- Councilman.
I believe stadium legislation called for us to approve the EOP by resolution, which we did a month or so later, but it was pretty clear on the record that we wanted half. We just approved of the deal with the understanding of what we were getting in terms of percentages from contractors and employment.
And that's what I meant by the general -- I think we had a general understanding of what the parameters were supposed to be and then waiting for the appropriate language and all the documents that go with it.
But if we weren't getting half in the EOP, then we were not going to approve the resolution.
Right. I understand. At what point did GPUAC come into the 69 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238 EOP development?
We were able to review the EOP once it was completed and to basically just give an opinion whether or not it was something that was achievable or not.
So you didn't participate in the development of the document?
None other than to discuss what was there. One issue that I recall was the issue of whether or not disabled workers would have been included in EOP. We felt that it should not.
I understand that. Well, let me ask this question. Is it better or easier for you to ensure that an EOP is being followed or complied with if you have the opportunity to work on it as it's being developed or if you get it when it's done and you're then asked to enforce it?
We would much rather work on the EOP while it's being developed. As the case, for instance, with the University of Pennsylvania, we worked with them for a year developing the EOP prior to the implementation of it.
Okay. Let's talk a 70 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238 little bit about this joint venture situation. I know we just received these other documents that give of a listing of many of the firms by name. What I would actually ask, as we go forward, the reports that we receive on a monthly basis -- and I'm looking at one that indicates the data is as of February 20, 2003, which I think is probably the last one that we received. It lists types of work. For instance, on the first page, abatement, MDBE, 49 percent; general requirements, 94 percent; demolition, 38 percent; site fence, 100 percent; bulk excavation, 100 percent. We had some discussion in another hearing. It may have been this hearing, it may have been some other hearing about this issue of the joint venture and the calculation for reporting purposes on these documents as to how things are categorized and accounted for. And so I'd like to understand from you, if I a joint venture -- let's say that I was crazy enough to actually go into business. If I had a joint venture with a non-minority person and whatever our arrangement is, but we represent to you that somehow through this new joint venture, I own -- and you can then tell us 71 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238 how you determine this -- 51 percent of the joint venture entity. How do you calculate the work that the joint venture receives in the context of minority work versus non-minority work?
The first step in that process, of course, is to, through working very closely with MBEC, they've established a guideline by which the joint venture preliminarily would be approved, which is what we do, a preliminary review of that. Basically what we attempt to ascertain is clearly the role of the minority/majority. If it's a 51/49, the 51 percent person's role in terms of whether or not they make it in some equity contribution or initial capitalization, if you will, that speaks to 51 percent of the dollars required, then there must be an agreement, of course, that speaks to the fact that they have operational control and they have meaningful and substantial participation. Let's assume that all that moves forward and the agreement is ultimately approved by the Minority Business Enterprise Council, then that is viewed as a business entity as any other and the majority control -- 72 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238
Does the joint venture have to have its own business privilege license?
That, I'm not aware of. I don't think so. I think both partners in the joint venture need to have their necessary state licensing.
So the individual entities have to have business privilege licenses, but the joint venture does not have to have a business privilege license?
That's to the best of my knowledge. I'm not absolutely certain.
So how do you determine the validity or the legitimacy of the joint venture. How to you make that determination?
If they have, again, a legally binding agreement to perform a venture as a business entity -- and again, we do the first run, preliminary review. It's ultimately reviewed by MBEC. That's the entity that actually says yes or no. 24
Okay. So let's say we're successful in winning a bid. When you do your 73 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238 calculation of either the -- I guess this is in the contracting side. Is that characterized as 51 percent or is that characterized as a 100 percent?
What happened to, in this case, the minority partner and what they're doing? Why is it characterized as a 100 percent?
But 100 percent of the money is not going to the minority contract or the minority vendor or the minority partner? Speaking as the African American as opposed to the 49 percent partner.
To some extent -- I'm not making any allegation. I'm just posing a question. Doesn't that possibly askew the actual calculation of who's getting what if -- I mean, we're doing the 51/49 thing. If I'm the 49 person, I'm assuming that I'm getting 49 percent of the money, not that the other guy is taking 100 74 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238 percent, but he's a 51 percent owner. You can't have it both ways.
I'm not necessarily asking you to say okay. I'm asking you to help me understand why it's that way. Because, I mean, we know that the money is not going that way, so why are we calculating it that way?
I would have to defer to the MBEC because we get guidance from that office as to how we count or don't count it. My understanding is that, if it is approved by them, then we can 100 percent.
Okay. I appreciate that. But when I read these reports, based on that example, I think I now have slightly less confidence that when I read -- and I don't know this for a fact. I have no idea who did the work. But based on what you just laid out, I am not absolutely sure that the company or whatever entity did this site fence -- and you got 100 percent MBE -- I now don't know whether that was one minority contract or a joint venture operation and they've got their own thing going on. So tell me now, you've got site 75 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238 fence, 100 percent; bulk excavation, 100 percent; playing field excavation, 100 percent; plumbing, 100 percent; mechanical piping, sheet metal, glass, electrical, site concrete work, masonry, wall coverings, structural steel painting -- the structural steel painting is very interesting at 100 percent and interior painting at 100 percent because I think we're getting some painting work done here in City Hall and I ain't seen no black people doing that work. (Applause.)
That's a solely owned firm. That's not a joint venture or anything like that.
If I go through this 100 percent listing, I don't think you're now going to sit there and tell me that these are all individual minority-owned businesses as opposed to possibly joint ventures with the 51/49 or 75/45 -- you can split it anyway you want -- that there is an untold part of this story here that we can't even 76 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238 calculate. Now, is that true?
Okay. So what I'm now going to ask you to do for the Committee, notwithstanding whatever the guidelines are with regard to MBEC because they can calculate whatever they want to calculate and we'll deal with them about that particular issue, but you can do a recalculation based on the reality and the fact, right? (Applause.)
So what I'd like to see for both the Eagles and Phillies, based on reports, I'd like to know the true percentages and I'd like every category to list out if it's an individual business, and I'd like to know who they are and what their business address is. And if it's a joint venture, I want to know who the joint ventures partners are and I want to know the participation or the financial relationship or ratio between those two entities and I'd like their addresses as well. Now, let me ask this question: On the same report for the Eagles -- and then we can go 77 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238 through the Phillies -- there's some numerical error here. I am on of this report. You've got site workforce, total of 3,257, but below the line where you list out in the five categories of where the people live, that actually only adds up to 3,237. So there's a 20-person difference here. But that will be no big difference in the final result here. I'm going to accept the 3,257 number, although it's slightly in dispute by 20. It doesn't matter. 3,257 people on the site workforce, right?
1,317 are Philadelphia residents; 912 outside of Philadelphia I'm going to assume based on the way you calculated the other report that that means that they're in Pennsylvania but outside of Philadelphia, right?
This is the shorter report that has the listing of the project goals, the minorities, and then it starts laying out the workforce numbers. Are you with me there? 78 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238
No. The 1,317 is a part of the total site workforce, correct?
You have 1,317 Philadelphia, 912 outside Philadelphia, 108 Delaware from, 809 from New Jersey, and 91 from other areas. Are we on the same --
This is your report that came in a couple weeks back. Stick with me. Don't stray on me. We're cooking with gas heat now. It's 5:20 in the afternoon. I just woke up. I had a half a bag of Twizzlers. I'm ready to do something. Okay. That's your document, right?
3,257 site workforce, right? That's everybody that's worked on 79 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238 the project; is that what that means?
1,317 Philadelphia residents, 912 outside of Philadelphia. Again, I'm going to assume that means outside Philly but inside Pennsylvania?
108 from Delaware, 809 from New Jersey, 91 from other areas, right? Is that what we're doing?
Okay. Now, you don't break out, at least in this report similar to what we did for the Phillies, what those other places are, specifically those other areas.
The 91. But let's stick with this report for the moment. Can you tell me -- because, you know, we're always intrigued by this. I mean, the outside Philadelphia but in Pennsylvania, you know, we love Philadelphians, but certainly we love Pennsylvanians as well. And in terms of the stadiums, the State did put money in. Other Pennsylvanians contributed to this. 80 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238 Given the unemployment rate in Philadelphia and specifically in some our communities, why are 108 people coming up here from Delaware? Why are 809 people flying across the bridge every morning and then going back at night so they can send thier kids to a better school system or live in a split level house or do whatever they do? And I don't know about the other areas. And maybe you can tell me about those. But in the Phillies, which is the other report that you guys sent, your total workforce -- that was not added up. That appears to be about 1,125, something like that?
512 out of Philly, 323 other Pennsylvania. We'll deal with that; they're Pennsylvanians, we like them. 18 from Delaware, from Indiana, 1 from Kentucky, 1 from Maryland, 256 from New Jersey, 5 from New York, 21 from Ohio, and the granddaddy of them all, why did a 22 person have to come here from Texas? What skill do 23 they have that no one here on the east coast has? 24
Do you have an 81 1 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238 understanding -- I don't mean to cut you off. Do you have an understanding of how people get wound up about this kind of stuff when you see this data and this information? I mean, until we solve the unemployment problem here in Philadelphia, I don't know why other people are coming here to work. Can you tell me why this happens?
Was that person in the hall that morning? Or were they waiting on the phone call?
Probably a phone call. The point is well taken, Councilman Nutter.
Well, I appreciate your recognition of the point, but what's the answer? Why is this happening?
Well, if I had the authority to designate the workforce, then I could answer that question for you. We don't have that authority.
I understand. I'm not criticizing you about the numbers. I'm just 82 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238 trying to understand what's going on. I've been reading these things for months. I mean, it's bizarre.
We have been advocates, as well as monitoring the project, but ultimately the decision does not rest with anybody at this table.
Well, you know I have to ask the follow-up question. Who does it reside with?
Well, you can start with the general contractors and they will tell you that we put in requests for laborers, we put in requests for carpenters, for bricklayers. We don't know Joe Blow from John Doe and we get who the unions sent us.
Mr. Jones, could you get us, for both projects, a list of -- you made reference to the contractors. Get us a list of the contractors, the principal's name, the address of the business and a phone number.
The contractors' names are listed, are in your report. It will give you all 83 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238 the information that you're looking for. Principal's name and address.
I think I didn't ask for this because we were dealing with the Eagles. But for the Phillies, could you give us, again, the same information with regard to -- you have in this report by cover letter, signed by Mike Stiles (ph) of February 24, 2003, again, water and sewer, 100 percent; electrical duct bank, 100 percent; mechanical, plumbing, 100 percent, 100 percent; temporary site electric, 100 percent; plumbing, concrete, 100. How many joint ventures are there at the two stadiums?
There are nine at the Eagles, I know. There are nine joint ventures at the Eagles.
When you do the break-out, we'll be able to figure out those. How many joint ventures at the Phillies?
It should be in the packet. I don't have the Phillies in front of me, but I do believe we do have the break-out. I know on the 84 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238 Eagles -- Charles, did we do the break-out also on the Phillies on the joint ventures?
We don't have the addresses and phone numbers, but we do have that and the total amount of money that was spent by the joint ventures.
I've never believed in the trickle down theory, whether it comes from the Republican Party economic theories or from the republican wing of the Democratic Party economic theories or whether it comes from the labor unions or anybody else. I think the real issue is the worker, and I tend to concentrate on the worker rather than on the entrepreneur. The entrepreneur is, of course, important, but if we're talking about availability of worker supply and everybody's dependent upon what the unions produce, then it seems to me we have to go to the heart of the problem. Why is there an unavailability in any of the areas of the construction industry? 85 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238 When I drive through the City of Philadelphia, I find plenty of people able of work all over the City. And in the areas heavily populated by African Americans, there seem to be more people on the street than anywhere else. So I know there's plenty available. And if there is a technical unavailability at a given moment, don't the unions which benefit from government laws, don't they have an obligation to provide the necessary steps to see that there's always available many more people than are needed at any time. Because people who are skilled sometimes have sickness at home, sometimes they're sick themselves. So they are not always going to be available, so you have to have a big pool of trained laborers. And I don't know why we don't make that demand because the building trades operate under -- and they're the only unions that do that in the whole country -- these big, independent folk who like to brag about how independent they are and everybody else is weak and needs government help but they don't. The truth is just the reverse. They are the only labor group in the whole country that have federal laws, state laws and city laws that guarantee their wage scale. 86 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238 There's nobody else that has prevailing wage rates. So these unions whose wage rates are guaranteed through the complex process of prevailing wage rates owe an obligation, since they benefit from government laws, they owe a special obligation to obey government laws. And I would think if there's one law that by this time is paramount it is that there has to be equal opportunity for everybody. (Applause.)
And that's particularly the responsibility of those labor organizations that run apprenticeship programs. So that I think we play games in a sense, games in which we participate, but never get to the heart of the problem unless we include what do we do about providing increased labor availability? And the only way I know to do that is to make sure that the whole process is democratic from beginning to end. Everybody, no matter what the color of their skin or their ethnic background or their gender, male or female, have a right to qualify for these training programs, all of which are paid for by government tax money, which minorities and women certainly contribute to, to the same extent as the 87 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238 non-minorities and the non-women. So I think we've got to find ways to make sure that those who benefit from democratic processes like from the prevailing wage rate are compelled to comply with those democratic processes. I think we've got to go to the heart and say, we're never going to solve this problem until there is full availability of everyone. Now, I know what that means. You know, there are code words that are used in every area. Over the years, more years than I want to admit, I've been struggling with this issue of, how do you increase the labor supply with skilled people regardless of color, regardless of gender, regardless of any consideration other than the fair and equal opportunity to everybody. And when I say to unions, "You're not doing what I think you ought to be doing in a democratic society where you're benefiting from government laws," they say to me, "Well, Councilman, if you ever feel that there's got to be a minority concern working anywhere, just tell us. We'll provide a minority firm." Well, that's not how a democracy works. 88 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238 It's not their right to determine what minority is working. You answered about that by saying sometimes they take workers from one project and put them in another project, rather than spreading the work around. So I think that one of the things this Body has to deal with is what we tried to deal with unsuccessfully a number of years ago in the Council. But it sounds to me from the way this Committee is talking that it maybe means business. (Applause.)
I have to say I've been very impressed by this Committee's activities. Because for years I've worked -- and many of you know my wife Florence when she was working with me as my chief of staff. We worked on a Bill called 649, which was aimed and democratizing the functioning of unions, that would require every union to have a democratic process so that we don't have what happens today where most people of color and women are screened out at the beginning before they get to apprentice school. And those that get in, find life so uncomfortable that most of those that get in don't last the whole program. And then those that finally last don't get in the union. And 89 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238 the few that get into the union get the worst possible jobs as far away as possible so they're discouraged and have to go somewhere else. (Applause.)
Now, they're the facts that I have found, the real facts in life. So I don't pay too much attention to these figures because I think these figures are arranged, not by you people, but by the people who try to maintain the current discriminatory system. They manage to make it look good, or as Councilman Ortiz' report said, the illusion of inclusion. It's total illusion. It's false. It's a lie. (Applause.)
So I would hope that at some stage we move in that direction. I don't know why a Democratic City strong in labor as Philadelphia has always been, at least since the days of Franklin D. Roosevelt than when Philadelphia would choose to be a bastion of Republican politics turned overnight when Roosevelt led the way with the social programs of Social Security, Workmen's Compensation, Unemployment Insurance. When government began accepting the responsibility for 90 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238 the quality of life of people, that's what turned Philadelphia around. It became a real labor city. Why we should tolerate the present condition that exists today when labor unions or any organizations are given the right to limit the availability of laborer supply? There ought to be full labor at every level of color or gender available, no matter what the level of skill is. There never ought to be a limitation like, "Well, we only have carpenters or 14 electricians or 32 12 cement masons or 3 painters available." There ought 13 to be a full supply and then we would get that kind 14 of skill. And I don't know of any reason why there 15 isn't that skill. We've got to develop the kind of 16 programs that produce those skilled workers, the 17 outreach programs that are necessary. You know, we learned in the schools that you have to have better trained teachers. You've got to start school at an earlier age. You've got to give kids full-scale kindergarten. And now we've moved on to the understanding that you've got to have pre-kindergarten classes. You need to do whatever you have to do to make the schools work. And that's what you've got to do in the labor market. 91 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238 I'm sure that people want jobs. Those who are unemployed would welcome the opportunity if they don't face discouragement at every level. And I believe that that's a major responsibility of this City Council and the Mayor of this City working together. And I would like to see a lot of attention paid to this and I would like your reactions to that. Because why should you fine people sitting at this panel have to confront the fact, well, we're told there were only cement masons 13 available and actually we would need 200 of them, so 14 obviously 173 got to be white because there are only 15 23 others available for five jobs and, therefore, 16 the percentage in each job has got to lowered. And 17 that when prosperity comes, it hurts minorities because there are going to be fewer jobs available because their spread over so many jobs. I think we've got to talk the basic truth and wherever that leads us, I suggest that we've got to move in that direction. We no longer ought to be diplomats. We no longer ought to accept the nonsense that we put up with when it seems to clearly the Eagles and the Phillies are scheming to get with their contractors 92 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238 to fool us, to make us believe that there exists something which doesn't exist at all. And I think we've got to get to the root of it. Mr. Chairman. (Applause.)
Mr. Chairman, I don't know what to suggest, but I would like to suggest that this Committee give special attention to perhaps coming up with a Bill that relates directly to the workforce. I think it's important to have minority contractors, but I think it's more important even than minority contractors to have not a lot of men a women unemployed in the neighborhoods. I think they all ought to be gainfully employed. And then the question of entrepreneurs will resolve itself. If you get a good, trained workforce, any trained man or trained woman begins to think in terms of owning a business once they get to know it, and I believe in building from the ground up, rather depending on the entrepreneurs to provide jobs that trickle down. That's why I opened this comment with the fact that 93 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238 I don't believe in trickle down. I want to lift up, beginning with the people in the neighborhood. Let's put our people to work. Let's get them all the training they need us. Let's demand that the City government take action. The City has close relations with the building trades. The head of the Redevelopment Authority that hands out hundreds of millions of dollars in contracts is from one of these unions. The head of a number of other agencies are from the building trades, so there ought to be no problem whatsoever. The Mayor meets with them all the time. We in Council often meet with them. I think we've all got to get together and show them that we really mean for the first time we want our folks in the minority community and the women trained, everything made available to them to encourage them, rather than to discourage them. Thank you. (Applause.)
Thank you, Councilman. The Chair recognizes first Councilwoman Miller and then Councilwoman Reynolds Brown and the Chair is requesting that Ms. Davis come to the table 94 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238 for a question. Councilwoman Miller.
Thank you. Good afternoon, everyone. I'd just like to know that -- I want to talk just a little bit about minority participation. Certainly that's been an issue for many elected officials for a whole lot of years, too many years, and people have been fighting this battle for a long, long time. I was really glad to hear that when Mr. Solomon and Mr. Jones spoke of helping to develop Equal Opportunity Plans, because I think that's an important place in where it starts. And I think what we need as elected officials -- because we're not the experts on everything. And if you're doing monitoring, then you sure know a lot more about this than most of us do. We just fight and we know that we get to a certain percentage point. Some of us were real active in working on the numbers for the stadiums, but certainly didn't know about what you describe, Mr. Jones, in terms of how we could have increased those numbers based on journeymen or apprenticeships. So I'm glad to hear that you'd be willing to help us develop and educate us around developing good Equal Opportunity Plans where we can 95 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238 have real numbers, real goals related to real numbers. The stadium numbers have always seemed good. I try to read the report every month that it comes in. On the other, the stadium numbers are good, and they're up, but numbers on other projects in other parts of the City go down. And we know that that's because we can't -- we don't have that many contractors that are in the union. Because sometimes it makes me wonder if we need to develop our own union. I don't even know whether that's something we can do sometimes. But sometimes when you brainstorm and think of crazy things, you think of ways to get things done. So when I watched the picture 10,000 Men called George and A. Randolph Phillips went out there and developed a black porters union, that solved a whole big problem across the nation. But in any event, I was wondering, have you seen -- and your opinion of this document, maybe haven't seen it -- but it was circumstanced to me anyway maybe about a month or two ago, called, "How to Evade Affirmative Action Programs for Minority Contractors or How To Drive Compliance 96 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238 Officers Off Their Rockers." Have you seen that?
Okay. Well, you, know, when I read this -- and certainly, I'm not a subcontractor -- and like Councilman Nutter, I don't want to be in business, at least not this business. It just describes a whole lot of ways to avoid giving a contract or getting a sub. I'll just read this one rule, "Always been courteous. Always be congenial, especially to compliance officers." But then there are all these pages that gives -- and I don't whether this is a joke and only a joke or whether this is real. But I'm telling you, this is some of what the contractors do to me as an elected official when I call them and they duck me and they call me in the morning when they know I'm not here or call me late. And it's just all kinds of ways and tactics. And I'd really like to make sure that you get a copy of this. It was submitted -- I know some of the Councilmembers have seen this and I know that some of the people in the audience have seen it. But I would hope that, as compliance officers or as people that monitor more or less what's going 97 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238 on, that you would help us, to the best of your ability, to help us to figure out a way to really begin to tackle this problem because these kind of hearings are important, but the problems will still exist tomorrow. And we have -- I know that with the document that we signed, one of the things we talked about was not signing off on projects that don't have inclusion. But, you know and I know they can sit down and agree to inclusion today and then play these games tomorrow and you have to fight and fight and fight for inclusion and then you have to take to your activist activities and shut jobs down and so on and so forth. But I'm going to ask somebody to make a copy and make sure that you get this. But I think we just have to have a better way of communicating with each other so that we get a better understanding of how to put together good EOP plans.
We will be very glad to, number one, accept that document and to see, certainly, if there are issues on there that you really want to make sure that we address. We certainly will respond, at least based on what we know and what we do in monitoring the process. And 98 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238 if there are ways that people are figuring out to get around us counting and monitoring and double checking payrolls and looking at contracts and sitting down weekly, sometimes twice a week looking at all that information, if they're still figuring out a way to get around it, we definitely want to know that. Certainly, we are available to meet with Council either one on one or as a group, to always go over the information. Charles Solomon always says to me, "Sharmain, the numbers are what we count and so we don't give you anything that's not." Maybe the way it's broken down doesn't always give you the information, but we can always break those numbers down into smaller units and into smaller subsets to make sure that they answer your questions and that they make sense.
The document you have that, we're aware of it, but we're also keenly aware of the games that contractors and other entities play to avoid the program effort. In implementing this program with the stadiums, we've incorporated some things. For instance, on the Eagles alone, we must have had in excess of 110 or so meetings to 99 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238 talk about these issues and these problems to face them head-on to generate some change. And it's not easy, but you've got to maintain a constant, vigilance and that's what we do, and we run into problems on both sides of the fence. But the fact of the matter, it's something we've got to do. The more we can do that with Council, with City Council, and also share some of the difficulties but also come up with some strategies to address them jointly, I think it would be very, very helpful.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. While we move to fix the current situation and seek to better improve our outreach efforts, the one thing I would like us to be mindful of is the next generation of young people who are currently not on-line, not on track to take advantage of these kind of opportunities. We should be aware of the fact that the Philadelphia Public School District is currently in discussions about the types of high schools they plan to build. 100 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238 And there's question on whether or not there should be a trade school that would provide young people the opportunity in all the trades that we hear we can't find people who look like us. So when the request and the appeal is made on what types of high schools should be built, we need your support, the School District is going to need your support to say, yes, we need a trade high school that speaks to all the existing trades where you don't see people who look like us so, so that we can get young people on line and not have to worry about what has been articulated by Ms. Ahmeenah Young. We have all these construction projects, and because there are so many, even if we were able to touch those in the City who are equipped, we still would not have enough. So that call is coming. That appeal is coming. My point is, we have to be mindful that we think about the next generation of young people, too, who deserve these kinds of opportunities and those who choose not to go on to college education. That's my point. Thank you.
The Chair recognizes Councilman Cohen for one question which I believe he wants to ask of Mr. Jones. Mr. Jones needs to leave 101 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238 after he answers this particular question. He's communicated to me he has to MC a program.
Thurgood Marshall Scholarship Fund. So if there's no objection, after this question, we're going to let Mr. Jones go. We may keep the rest of the panel until about 10 o'clock tonight. Thank you. Councilman, and then Councilwoman Tasco.
Is there anything that stops the panel in front of me from raising the question when told we only have cement masons -- 16 I'm using that figure. This is an example. There 17 are only 23 that are needed and, therefore, the 18 great bulk have to be non-minority. Is there 19 anything that stops this panel from asking, "What 20 are you are doing to remedy the lack of 21 availability?" Are you under any compulsion from 22 any higher authority than yourselves, at the city or 23 state or federal levels that prevent you from making the demand on the labor unions that give you the reply as to availability as to why there aren't more 102 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238 and what are they doing to bring about more? Is there anything that stops you from doing that?
No, there is nothing that stops us. In fact, we do ask the same questions that you've just posed, Councilman Cohen. We've had a number of meetings with contractors, with union representatives to try to increase the number minorities on this project. We keep saying, give us more, give us more, give us more. And with enough pressure -- I think we have gotten an increase in the numbers because of our persistence and our pushing. But in the end, we don't have them.
But you said you had discussions with contractors. Have you had discussions with the source of the problem, the labor organizations that control the supply?
And did they tell you they are trying to increase the availability?
No, they do not say, "We are trying to increase the availability or our membership, the minority membership in our respective unions."
What do they say? 103 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238
I think you owe a duty to the public to let the public know of those kind of answers you're getting. Because I think they have a responsibility.
But when you identify that you have over a hundred people who passed the test, what happened to those folks? Did they disappear somewhere? They're all home waiting on the call?
It's been like going up a brick wall sometimes trying to get them into the unions.
I want to say to my colleague, Councilwoman Blondel Reynolds Brown, this is a comment on your statement about more training. I mean, we have been training for the last 40 years. We have enough trained. The problem is you train 104 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238 them -- and I think that's why the Vocational Tech School Program closed with the School District. Because no matter what you trained in the trades, the people did not get into the unions. The bottom line is getting into the unions and getting the union membership. We have a lot of people in this room and in this City who have gone through the DAP Program. We heard the other day there were 400-some people who went through the DAP Program; 90 of them were in one union, the carpenters. The carpenters. Women, Latinos, African Americans. So where are they? We have 400 people waiting for a telephone call. So the bottom line is, and it's been stated today, what is the effort to open those doors? And that is the bottom line. So if I've got to have a choice in terms of some of the other stuff in the School District, we got the DAP Program, we got this program, we got that program. Everybody's got a training program, but nobody's working. Nobody's working. Let me ask you a question. What is your thought -- this is probably for us as politicians to answer. Is it out of the question to 105 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238 have a residential requirement in the contracts? Have you ever had that experience?
On the Temple projects we did have a specific residential requirement in terms of hours worked. Each contractor was expected to come in and gives us some sense of how many hours of residential work they could provide. It wasn't like having a residential union membership requirement, but I think, though, in looking at what we're doing, in looking into the communities, you've got to have that. You've got to have some sort of residential requirement. That needs to be worked out.
We got probably a 50, 55 percent reaction from the contracting in terms of offering hours. But there, again, it was not very dissimilar from the situation with housing where someone came in and worked five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten hours or so and that was it. But they didn't get into the union. Some folks did, but to a large extent, that requirement did not translate into union membership. 106 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238
Were the skills across the board or were the majority laborers? The majority of those were laborers. There were some folks who got into skilled trades, but basically they were laborers in terms of the hours. Again, the requirement in that instance was to offer work hours to community residents on a per project basis. And the point is that, that was something negotiated at the beginning of the contract. It was in the solicitation from the very start and then we responded to it, reviewed it, and either accepted it or rejected their agreement. But I think it is required.
I do not want to be misunderstood. I am in complete agreement that the unions are the roadblock. My message is for that contingency of young people who know in 9th grade, whether they believe it or not, that they are not college material, that they don't want to go to college. We have to be prepared to provide them options at the 9th grade level. So that they graduate really having not a clue about what they want to do, decide that they want to go into the 107 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238 building trades across the board, go into the training programs and then don't meet the standard because, as one of our testifiers indicated, they go through the training and they drop out because they cannot meet the test standards. So I believe we have a responsibility as a City, if we're going to roll out a number of high schools, yes, some of them should be academic high schools. Yes, some of them should be specialty high schools, like the performing arts and the like. And yes, one of them should be a trade school so that we can capture young people who know in 9th grade that they want to go into the trades. And I preface my comments by saying there are discussions. A part of those discussions are to look to see how, for as impossible as it may seem, to bring some of the unions at the table at the door and craft an agreement that when they graduate from high school, they are immediately on line to move into those trades. Yes, it's going to be impossible because we've already had that experience with what we're not seeing around the kind of discussion we're having today. My point is, we have to be mindful of young people who want trade as an option as well. 108 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238 And we can't wait until they are out of high school to discover that they want to go to trade school and can't meet the standard. Let's capture them at 9th grade and follow them all the way through. The unions are a roadblock, without a doubt. Thank you. (Applause.)
Maybe someone can answer this question. In terms of even if you go into training and you work, that you have to work 500 hours before you can be eligible for membership or for the employment. Is there any hourly requirement prior to going into the union as an apprentice?
I don't know if that's true. If we look simply at the NTI project, we had individuals in the Strawberry Mansion area who started working on the project and after, I think, it was two weeks, they were entered into the union. So it may vary from union to union, but I'm not aware of that.
Ms. Davis, I need to 109 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238 ask you a couple questions. Please identify yourself for the record.
Ms. Davis, first, I believe that you were not the Finance Director at the time that Council took up the Philadelphia Phillies and the Philadelphia Eagles stadium and ballpark projects; is that correct?
May, right. Okay. What's the City's total financial commitment to both of the stadiums?
$304 million. A total of $390 when you include the maintenance support for the Eagles.
Just an operating 110 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238 and maintenance agreement?
Over 20 or so. 20 to 25 9 years. But it's $294 million total. 10
So since we're up in 11 that neighborhood, why don't we just say roughly 12 $400 million? 13
And with the 15 exception of the operating and maintenance 16 agreement, although I could be fuzzy on the details, 17 the operation and maintenance agreement, we're doing 18 out of -- are we doing that out of debt service -- 19
The 304, that was from bond proceeds; is that correct?
Who's the agent or 111 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238 who is holding the money on the bond proceeds?
The bond proceeds for the most part have already been distributed to the two teams. In the case of the Eagles, it was for land aquisition, and the land aquisition has been completed. And I believe on the Phillies part it was a combination of land and then towards construction and that would have been disbursed to the teams.
Yes, they do. Either the money or the land that the money was used to purchase.
And what, if any, in the contractual agreements -- and I know there were many pages and multi contracts. I think there's probably a master agreement between the City and PAID and then sub-agreements between PAID and the teams directly and I'm sure other parties. What provisions were there in any of those contracts with regard to non-compliance to the terms and conditions of the contract regarding any financial penalties? 112 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238
I will have to get back to you on that. I couldn't quote that. There are roughly seven, three-inch binders in my office that contain that deal, but I will get it back to you.
In your relatively short time, are you aware of any project that the City has funded whose payments for which the City may have an obligation, whether those payments have ever been suspended for non-compliance with the terms and conditions of the contract?
There have been instances where we have suspended payments. If someone is not in compliance with the terms of the agreement we do have the right to suspend.
I can think of one where we held payments because someone was not paying their sub and we were proceeding towards debarment on that particular vendor until they did. I'd like to not mention their name, but I will talk to you about it.
No, I understand. But you will get back to us on the issue of -- 113 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238
So once the bonds were issued, shortly after that, the money went directly to the teams?
We purchased the land. In the case of the Eagles we went through the condemnations and the acquisitions. And in the case of the Phillies, I think it was partially land and partially actual payment to the team.
Okay. And then let me ask Mr. Solomon, I guess as the expert on EOP, the Economic Opportunity Plan. I've flipped through one of these very quickly and I'm almost certain that both of these are probably the same. Can you tell me what provision in the Economic Opportunity Plan lays out any penalty for non-compliance with the Economic Opportunity Plan?
Is that typical of these kinds of agreements? Was another built into 114 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238 Economic Opportunity Plan if there is no penalty for non-compliance.
One of the few things that's available to the construction manager or owners is a suspension or a slow-down of payments. That's the only remedy that I am aware of in terms of these two projects.
How would we do that? I mean the money that the City put into the project was long gone before any of these contractors came.
No, I'm talking about the owners actually suspending payment to contractors or holding up payments to contractors who are in non-compliance.
If they have an overriding interest in the success in the EOP and they are firmly committed to it and I think if they get clear indication that contractors have not been in 115 3/13/03 - COMMERCE - RES. 020238 compliance.
In the case of at least the two big matters that we've talked about today -- and Mr. Jones went through some of the numbers; I wrote them down. Are both of these projects in compliance?