And12 we'll let them all be registered13 community groups based on some pretty14 easy criteria that we would ask them to15 submit to us, and then they would all get16 that opportunity.17 And the goal of this is to try18 to make the review process for projects19 that need public review more consistent20 throughout the City and at least a little21 clearer to applicants and developers so22 that they don't have to discover a new23 process every time they go to a different24 neighborhood.25 188 4.13.11 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 1101371
Very2 well. Thank you.3 The Chair recognizes Councilman4 Jones.5
I'd like to6 yield to my colleague Councilman7 Greenlee.8 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA:9 Councilman Greenlee.10
Thank11 you. Thank you, Councilman. I12 appreciate it.13 I don't have the14 (indiscernible) as Councilman Jones does,15 so I'll try to be -- describe as well as16 I can.17 But just to follow up on what18 the Council President said and19 Councilwoman Tasco, I know when we did20 the Zoning Code Commission, when we first21 went through it, it was one of the first22 bills that went through when I was the23 Chair of the Law and Government24 Committee.25 189 4.13.11 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 1101371 I remember particularly from2 the northeast part of the City because3 they have some extensive zoning4 committees up there, and you mentioned5 Somerton and Bustleton and all of that6 and plus other areas, that there was7 going to be this concern that there8 wasn't going to be as much community9 involvement.10 And they kind of have, over11 those years, learned the zoning code, and12 I guess they were concerned that some13 rights were being taken away from them.14 But I know you -- that's the15 way of saying I know you've had a lot of16 civic engagement, and maybe you could17 talk just a little bit more about that,18 you know, because I know there's a --19 there is -- I think there still is20 concern, and I think when it comes back21 here to Council, we're going to hear from22 a lot of those groups that at least23 believe that some of their -- I don't24 know if "power" is the right word or25 190 4.13.11 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 1101371 rights maybe are being at least lessened.2 And, again, saying that, I3 understand there's a lot of things in the4 present code that needed to be5 modernized; there's no doubt about that.6 But --7
Thank you.8 Two things. One is, during9 this period, if there are particular10 groups who may have a concern, we are11 happy and eager to go out and talk to12 them and make sure we are very specific.13
And we have a15 lot of documents and materials to give16 groups so we can get that feedback.17 We're being very specific about changes18 in uses just so that we flush out any19 issues now, before we hand the document20 to the City Council sometime in May.21 In terms of the kind of22 community's right to participate, we've23 created a system. Right now, community24 groups learn about a project that's going25 191 4.13.11 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 1101371 in front of the Zoning Board of2 Adjustment either from their Council3 office, or they read about it when a ZBA4 hearing is set up.5 We have set up a system where6 the applicant has to give notice within a7 certain period of time of applying for8 the zoning permit, so it's earlier in the9 process.10 We've also set up a system that11 says the applicant, the zoning applicant,12 must meet with any of the registered13 groups before the ZBA hearing, or before14 this design review process, so that they15 have a voice early in the process and16 they're not finding out a week before a17 hearing and having to kind of hurry up.18
And we've20 created a timeline that respects the fact21 that a lot of these groups meet on a22 monthly basis to get them enough time to23 set up a meeting with a developer and to24 be able to document what came out of the25 192 4.13.11 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 1101371 meeting.2 One other thing that we've done3 is -- again, 'cause this came out of4 community groups when we surveyed them5 during the last few years, is that we're6 extending the time for posting of ZBA7 hearings. Right now, those hearings are8 posted with the orange posters for 129 days; we've extended that to 21 days.10
And often,12 those hearings end up being postponed or13 rescheduled. And we're requiring that if14 it's scheduled more than a week later, it15 has to be re-posted so, again, the16 community, through that method, will have17 more information than they have now.18
And then I will20 go to what Alan Greenberger said, which21 is that those registered community22 organizations are going to have that23 early information and have that meeting.24 There should be public meetings and the25 193 4.13.11 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 1101371 same opportunity to present testimony or2 to submit letters will be available as is3 available now.4 We're just trying to help the5 groups get it earlier and more6 information.7
And do8 you feel those community groups know this9 by now? Has that outreach been there?10 Do they understand that?11
I think that12 there's a varying degree of attention13 being paid to the new zoning code by14 different groups throughout City.15
So groups in17 South Philadelphia or Center City, East18 Falls, you know, some other areas have19 been paying a lot of attention and have20 come to ten, twenty, thirty activities of21 the Zoning Code Commission.22 And, of course, we've done a23 lot of those meetings.24
Mm-hmm.25 194 4.13.11 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 1101371
But, you know,2 some of the meetings had twenty people3 and some have had a hundred.4
The West6 Philadelphia meetings, as Councilwoman7 Blackwell knows, have had many, many8 people.9 But I am sure that there are10 still people or groups who will say they11 don't know enough, which is why we've12 been spending these two months trying to13 get out there.14 And so, again, if you're aware15 of a group that you think may not have16 focused, we would like to know, and we17 will go out and have a very detailed18 conversation with them and get their19 feedback.20
Okay.21 That's good.22 Because, again, I think that's23 one of the main concerns that people24 aren't, you know, at least -- and I know25 195 4.13.11 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 1101371 there's a certain percentage of people2 who always wait until the last minute to3 pay attention; I understand that.4 But it's good that you have had5 this, dialogue 'cause I know there was6 that concern before the bill even got on7 the ballot, you know, that there was8 going to be this sort of taking away of a9 certain amount of power.10
Thank15 you, Madam President.16 Thank you, Councilman Jones.17 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA:18 You're welcome.19 The Chair recognizes Councilman20 Jones.21
Thank you,22 Madam President.23 I, like Councilwoman Tasco,24 represent a district that, in particular25 196 4.13.11 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 1101371 areas, I have groups that are so on top2 of this, that they inform me about what I3 should know about it.4 There is one area that comes to5 mind that might serve as a teaching tool6 for me, and it's 63rd Street from Market7 to, I want to say, Nassau Road. Adjacent8 is another block called Wynnewood Road.9 Now, to describe these areas,10 they are large mini mansions. They are11 eight-bedroom, possibly some of them even12 more, some three-story, and they are13 particularly interesting because some of14 them have fallen into a state of15 disrepair, A. And the use as a16 single-family dwelling is slim and none.17 Well, I'm not -- I guess I shouldn't say18 that, but it's less likely today.19 Families aren't as big as they once were.20 The neighborhood -- to upkeep21 that particular large structure both from22 energy and renovation is probably23 astronomical, and the economics of the24 buildings lend themselves to want to be25 197 4.13.11 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 1101371 several types of multipurpose and2 mixed-use properties.3 The danger there is -- and I4 guess the question I'm asking is, if we5 did a predictable zoning overlay that6 says these properties can do the7 following use -- mixed uses and8 residential -- there are subtle9 differences that I want to be able to10 make sure is embedded in the code.11 There's a difference between a12 doctor's office and a physical therapy13 office. There are subtle differences14 between a lawyer's office, a real estate15 office or a high-volume traffic types of16 businesses that all could probably be17 housed in these beautiful dwellings, but18 in the intersperse between those19 dwellings are people who actually live in20 those single-family units.21 So how do we take something22 like that that is kind of eclectic and23 give the predictability that you want and24 still provide the residents the ability25 198 4.13.11 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 1101371 to object to a particular subtle type of2 use?3 I remember distinctly -- and4 I'll let you answer, and this is near5 that neighborhood but not quite on those6 blocks. There's a guy who came in and7 told me -- I mean, I swear to you,8 convinced at least my staff that he was9 trying to develop a family restaurant10 similar to, and I quote, Chuck E. Cheese.11 And I'm saying, Oh, wow, a12 Chuck E. Cheese in my neighborhood, that13 sounds like fun. I could see myself14 taking my grandkids to lunch there on a15 Sunday afternoon16 Well, when I went in there, the17 first indication was that it was the18 largest bar I've ever seen. I mean, it19 literally went to close to a 25-foot bar.20 It is the largest bar. And I said, Well,21 I don't know how many kids want to eat22 pizza at a bar like that23 And then the subtlety of what24 was going up, after I appealed the -- he25 199 4.13.11 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 1101371 wanted to have a nightclub, and what he2 was going to probably do was adult3 entertainment of sorts, and it's a far4 cry from a Chuck E. Cheese Luckily, my5 grandkids would have been in shock and6 awe.7 But the point of it is, how do8 we protect residents from those similar9 uses yet very different uses under this10 new design?11
We've had many12 of the same concerns and discussions.13 And so, there are three14 different ways, at least three different15 ways, uses are being categorized in the16 new zoning code.17 One is an absolute yes, it's18 permitted. Another is no, it's not19 permitted. Another, which is currently20 called "a certificated use," would be an21 S, called a special exception. That22 requires a hearing at the Zoning Board of23 Adjustment, and there is a burden to24 present basically that that use is in25 200 4.13.11 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 1101371 harmony with that neighborhood, and there2 will be criteria.3 In addition, for some of those4 uses, we also have specific standards5 that apply. And so, we have worked very6 hard on creating a definition for7 "nightclubs" and "private clubs," and8 talking about standards for those and9 differentiating those from restaurants,10 because a restaurant might be much more11 palatable than a nightclub.12
And so, we14 worked very hard on the definitions15 themselves and on having standards16 attached to them.17 So if you wanted to -- I don't18 know what that area you're talking about,19 how it's presently zoned, but if you20 wanted to zone it to a mixed use -- for21 example, what's now C-2 -- there would be22 certain uses that would be permitted as23 of right, there would be certain uses24 that would never be permitted, and there25 201 4.13.11 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 1101371 would be some that would require that2 trip to the ZBA for the neighbors to3 weigh in.4 And in addition, there would be5 those standards set up for uses that6 might have, you know, a negative impact.7
I appreciate8 the thought given to those definitions.9 And that probably works for the honest10 person. I'm talking about safeguarding11 against the dishonest person that says,12 This is a duck. Look, it walks, it13 quacks; but yet, it can't swim.14 And so how do we safeguard when15 I say, This is a Chuck E. Cheese. And16 we're all looking at it in disbelief,17 saying, This is not a Chuck E. Cheese.18 So when there is a dispute,19 what are the automatic kickers? What are20 the rights to protest or try to examine21 further the assertion that this is a22 Chuck E. Cheese?23 DEPT. MAYOR GREENBERGER:24 Well, let's say -- I know the area you're25 202 4.13.11 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 1101371 talking about, big houses up somewhat --2
Beautiful,3 beautiful --4 DEPT. MAYOR GREENBERGER:5 Beautiful houses, yeah, really6 spectacular.7
It's the8 best district except for the 9th and the9 3rd in the City of Philadelphia.10 DEPT.
So I11 don't know the zoning for that stretch,12 but I'm guessing it's big, single-family13 residential zoned, mostly likely.14
So16 there are a couple of things.17 And where I thought you were18 going with this was, you don't have a lot19 of single families probably living there,20 particularly single families who can21 maintain buildings of that size. And so,22 what's their out?23 And so, in the current -- in24 the proposed code, that zoning may get a25 203 4.13.11 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 1101371 different name, but it's not going to be2 changed; it's still going to be3 single-family zoning.4 Now, in the district remapping,5 the new rule book, which you're going to6 be looking at sometime this year, will7 define different zoning types that will8 allow some level of either additional9 residents or additional commercial mixed10 use.11 But the key to your Chuck E.12 Cheese -- and I was thinking it's -- you13 probably -- the guy probably said "Chucky14 Cheese," not "Chuck E. Cheese.15
-- probably20 tried to slip one by me.21 DEPT. MAYOR GREENBERGER:22 Yeah, but -- 'cause I remember Chuck E.23 Cheese when the kids were little.24 And I don't care what he calls25 204 4.13.11 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 1101371 it; he's going to have to identify uses,2 because the whole structure of the code3 in relationship to what you can and can't4 do in a district is related to uses.5 So one is the remapping process6 where, in an area like that, I can7 imagine at least a healthy argument about8 what should this be, given that single9 family may not work in the long run may10 not work now.11 But then, even separate from12 that, if you think that there is a13 different zoning possibility for a place14 like that, the new code's rules are set15 up to basically force people to tell us16 what they're doing.17 Now, obviously, it's sort of18 hard to keep people from lying, it's hard19 to make a rule book that says you can't20 lie, and then they stick to it if they're21 liars, right? But it's incumbent then on22 Planning and L&I to make sure to vet the23 thing carefully.24 And at least our experience so25 205 4.13.11 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 1101371 far is that between those two2 organizations and numerous community eyes3 and ears, the truth comes out before the4 reality happens.5
Okay. And6 let's say, in the past, we've been able7 to say -- and the community, more8 importantly, has been able to say -- I9 like this but I don't want the door on10 this side, and I want the sign not to be11 so bright, and it's shining in my window.12 DEPT. MAYOR GREENBERGER:13 Right.14
And those15 little subtle workouts were done because16 of the nature of the process and the17 approval.18 Do we lose some of that?19 DEPT.
Tell me how.21 DEPT. MAYOR GREENBERGER:22 Well, first of all, to the extent that --23 I mean, you said -- you mentioned a24 number of things.25 206 4.13.11 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 1101371 To the extent that they are2 subjects that are covered by zoning, like3 signs, we're going to be -- we're going4 to use the same kind of careful and5 thorough method to sort of saying what6 you can and can't do with signs within7 certain districts. So there's going to8 be tight regulations associated with9 that.10 As you get to like within the11 property itself, I could live with the12 door here, but I can't live with the door13 there --14
Which are15 probably conforming uses as we know it,16 but in that process, there was a17 back-and-forth, how shall I say,18 negotiation on that happened between the19 residents who have to live with this20 stuff --21 DEPT. MAYOR GREENBERGER:22 Right.23
-- and the24 operator goes home every night and25 207 4.13.11 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 1101371 doesn't.2 DEPT. MAYOR GREENBERGER:3 Right.4
You know,5 the trash winds blowing over on my step6 because of where your door is.7 DEPT. MAYOR GREENBERGER:8 Right.9
So those10 little negotiations, even though not11 covered inside or outside of the zoning12 code, happen. How does that exchange13 happen?14 DEPT.
It's15 a bit of a subtlety but it's an important16 and powerful one.17 'Cause what happens now is that18 almost nothing is of right at this point.19 And so, because everything becomes a20 variance or an ordinance or however it's21 going to get handled, there's an entrée22 to talking about anything and everything:23 where the door goes, how you operate.24 Community agreements are set up around25 208 4.13.11 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 1101371 that. And so, that's how that happens.2 But what I think the new code3 is trying to get to is to say, if we4 can't establish proper conditions for5 development, whether it's mixed use or6 whether it's single use, with proper7 standards attached to them that are8 crafted to mitigate some of the things9 that we can mitigate under zoning, people10 ought to be more than comfortable when a11 use like that that does have to conform12 to those standards shows up.13 So it's kind of doing the work14 beforehand --15
--18 rather than -- now, it doesn't mean -- so19 there might be a situation where there is20 an of right use in a zone that is21 perfectly okay, and there's still an22 argument about "I'd rather have the door23 here and there," and these start to be24 things that live outside of zoning.25 209 4.13.11 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 1101371 And so, there is not a process2 where --3
I4 understand.5 DEPT. MAYOR GREENBERGER:6 There is not a process in which we can7 say anything's on the table, and anybody8 can, therefore, stop anything, 'cause9 that's the flip side of "I'm concerned10 about where that door is." So --11
I've12 actually lived on both sides of that13 issues, where -- what's it's called,14 "BANANA" (build absolutely nothing15 anywhere near anything) theory.16 DEPT. MAYOR GREENBERGER:17 Right.18
And I19 understand the frustration there, but I20 also understand the frustration of the21 senior citizen that says, "I used to sit22 out on my porch. The light is now here.23 And if the door were over there, it would24 make my life liveable."25 210 4.13.11 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 1101371 So there's a balance and a2 trade-off that I think we kind of need to3 be conscious of at least and be careful,4 if we can, to not give away too much of5 that back-and-forth leveraging that we6 do.7 DEPT.
Now, on some10 hands, it's a pain in the rear, and I've11 experienced that side of it. And on the12 other hand, it's a valuable, good-13 neighbor tool that allow people to14 coexist in piece.15 DEPT.
And16 if I could just add one other thing,17 Councilman, 'cause these are really18 important issues like day-to-day in all19 neighborhoods, including even in the20 center.21 If you have a situation where22 that person's sitting on their porch and23 they're there because they thought that24 they had bought into a single-family25 211 4.13.11 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 1101371 area, and now suddenly, there's a2 commercial operation across the street3 with a sign, and it's, lit that's a4 problem, right? Because regardless of5 how that got there, that's a problem,6 because the expectation, based on at7 least the zoning, was different.8 The flip side of that -- and we9 see the flip side one as well -- is10 people move into areas that are, in fact,11 zoned and have been zoned for substantial12 mixed use, and then say "Oh, yeah, but I13 actually don't like that facility, you14 know, that store's owner" or "I don't15 like how they operate." And so, that's16 flip side of it. And we say, "Well,17 like, you moved into this thing."18
"Why are the23 trains so loud, Councilman?" And I said,24 "Well, there are tracks there that were25 212 4.13.11 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 1101371 there" --2 DEPT.
So3 that's kind of the inevitable balancing4 act that we're trying to do, with the5 intention of getting as much approval and6 agreement up front, before the issue even7 comes up. That's really the thrust of8 the new code.9
Well, I10 applaud you for taking this issue on and11 trying to save trees by reducing the size12 of paperwork in order to get things that13 should be predictable done.14 But as a District15 Councilperson, I want to work with you to16 make sure we don't throw the baby out17 with the bath water, that that input from18 the community and, God forbid, an elected19 official every now and then gets in, all20 right?21 Okay. Thank you, Madam22 President.23 DEPT. MAYOR GREENBERGER:24 Thank you for the --25 213 4.13.11 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 1101371 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA:2 You're welcome.3 The Chair recognizes4 Councilwoman Blackwell.5
Thank6 you, Madam President.7 I just note for the record that8 perhaps we just better review where we9 are. We thank you and we know we've had10 our private meeting with you with regard11 to the whole issue of the word,12 quote/unquote, prisons and how reentry13 centers are not prisons and how we're14 dealing with that specific issue.15 Would you review that?16
Yes,17 Councilwoman.18 After our meeting with you,19 I've had several conversations with the20 Deputy Mayor's Office for Safety. I21 actually sent them some draft definitions22 for -- one for a reentry facility that23 was focused on providing services, and24 another for a reentry facility that was25 214 4.13.11 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 1101371 residentially based.2 I've asked them to review that.3 And as soon as I hear back from them,4 I'll share that with you as well.5
And12 I'd appreciate your sharing it with me13 because I think we have --14
Are21 there any other questions from members of22 the committee?23 The Chair recognizes Councilman24 Clarke.25 215 4.13.11 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 1101371
Thank you2 Madam President.3 Madam President, we had a -- at4 the discussion earlier we had with the5 Administration about some potential6 Capital Budget amendments, and I would7 like to offer them at this time, just to8 explain that there was some requests9 about a number of Councilmembers about10 possible capital dollars being put aside11 for alley lights that are owned by the12 City of Philadelphia for possible13 replacement that would qualify under the14 Capital Budget Program and potentially15 some of the neighborhood commercial16 corridors that have a public purpose that17 would qualify.18 So what we would like to do is19 introduce the amendments. There will not20 be a vote. The intent is to get it in21 before, 'cause there's a time frame22 associated when you can offer amendments23 for Capital Budget, 'cause there's an24 issue with the Planning Commission.25 216 4.13.11 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 1101371 So I would ask that we go into2 a public meeting so we can offer the3 amendments.4
We5 will continue our -- does everybody have6 a copy of the amendments?7 (Copy of amendments is8 distributed.)9
Does10 everybody have a copy of the amendment?11 We will now continue our public12 hearing and go into a public meeting.13
Okay.14 Thank you, Madam President.15 Madam President, I would just16 like to offer proposed amendments to Bill17 No. 110035, in addition to which I18 propose an amendment to Bill No. 110036,19 which covers both alley lighting and20 commercials corridors. I request no vote21 at this time.22
Very23 well. And we'll make sure that the24 stenographer has a copy of both, please.25 217 4.13.11 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 1101371 Thank you.2 We will now go back into our3 public hearing.4 I want to thank you both very5 much for all of your cooperation. I'm6 sure we'll be seeing a lot of each other7 in the very near future before this is8 over.9 Thank you.10
Thank you.11 DEPT. MAYOR GREENBERGER:12 Thank you, Madam President.13
This14 committee will stand in recess until15 Monday, April the 18th, at 10 o'clock.16 Thank you.17 (Proceedings end at 3:20 p.m.)18 * * *19 20 21 22 23 24 25 218 C E R T I F I C A T E2 I HEREBY CERTIFY that the4 proceedings of the City of Philadelphia Council5 Committee of the Whole are contained fully and6 accurately in the stenographic notes taken by7 me on Wednesday, April 13, 2011, and that this8 is a true and correct statement of same.9 10 11 12 _________________________________13 JOSEPHINE CARDILLO14 Registered Professional Reporter 15 16 17 18 19 20 (The foregoing certification of21 this transcript does not apply to any22 reproduction of the same by any means, unless23 under the direct control and/or supervision of24 the certifying reporter.)25