civus
Hearing video

ZBA Hearing - December 11, 2024

Philadelphia Zoning Board of Adjustment (ZBA)Dec 11, 20247h 26m

cooked or anything like that. It's really a space for the kids to occupy their time as opposed to

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being elsewhere that could be somewhat dangerous or undesirable during those after hours.

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So it is only this unit B, which is, again, 1,030 square feet. We have approximately capacity for between 12 and 20 students. And what I wanted to point out a little bit earlier is that the area itself, even though it is industrial, there are three full-fledged educational centers within this just horseshoe of a street.

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We have the Redline Elementary School, which is a private school, pre-K through fifth grade, that has a full curriculum. It is state licensed. They do serve fresh foods, hot meals, and they've been in there for over a decade plus.

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Two doors down even further, we have the Grow and Learn Education Center, which is essentially,

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it looks like the hours of operation are between 8 a.m. and 6 p.m., and they, too, have a full

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contingent of students way, way greater than what we're looking at in an aftercare facility.

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And then finally, the primary educational facility in this area is the Bambi Educational

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Daycare. They've been here for about 30 years. I do know that a lot of traffic around some of

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these is occurring, but they have significantly higher attendance rates during their operations

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and significantly longer operational hours, a lot of which is during that peak morning time of day.

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The owner is, as I said, a tenant of the property. They stepped in here and tried to do this earlier

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in the year and get it going, but they are there for the long haul. The taxes have been paid on

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the property and we did meet with the Greater Busselton Civic League. We did get opposition

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from the Greater Busselton Civic League. I don't quite understand all of the opposition that was

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there, especially given the fact that there's active adult daycare has already been allowed

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and several other schools are located in this industrial district, which leads me to the

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hardship in that we are looking for a consistency in the area so that we are treated identically to

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some of these other applications that have been allowed. And we feel that this is the minimum

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variance going from an industrial to a commercial use that is also in the purpose and spirit of the

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code and plan because so many variances have been given recognizing that this area is not the

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greatest uh or it hasn't been in the past for industrial uses so now the building itself has

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been allowed to go into this industrial commercial mixed use which creates slightly greater hardship

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on on the use to um you know because its characteristics have already allowed it to have

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commercial uses in there um it's it's impossible to be in strict conformity of the code at this

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point in an industrial area. This project does not increase congestion in the streets or endanger

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the public. And that is because, again, it's a very limited use. We're not talking about a full-time

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school in this space. We don't anticipate any impact to neighboring properties.

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Unfortunately, I do believe the owner and some of the adjacent neighboring properties,

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the residential ones, are having a dispute, but it is not related to the applicant's use,

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and it is not related to the portion of the building that the applicants are seeking to

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operate out of. There would be no burden on the public facilities or utilities here. It's a

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nominal amount of people using, no different than would be if an industrial use were likely allowed

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there, probably less. And there is no environmental concern with this project. There's no impact on

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the environment or the land at all. So given that these uses have been allowed throughout the

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industrial, we'll call it neighborhood street, as well as specifically within this building,

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we believe that that is the hardship and that there's only, you know, it would be necessary

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to allow this to enable this applicant to have a financially viable economic use in this space.

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I do, again, have Ms. Hadar.

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Council, can I ask a question?

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Yes, please.

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Did you attend the meeting?

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I did.

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And what was the conversations?

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So a lot of the conversation is that people had problems with, at least as I, let me go back to it.

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at least as I, let me go back to it. People had a lot of problems with this daycare specifically

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People had a lot of problems with this day.

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saying that it caused a lot of traffic in the area. And so they were concerned more about a

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lot of the traffic in the area. And again, I think some of it was dealing with some of the

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neighbors in the back. I don't want to tie it to that, but I do know that there is a dispute over

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some of this land that raised concerns with people saying that this landlord having problems with the

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landlord or the owner, I should say, versus the applicant itself. The neighborhood didn't

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necessarily see the need for this, but I don't know that that's, you know, I didn't know how

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to answer that because my client has obviously, you know, done her homework as to why she would

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want to open this up at this location. So, I mean, those were the primary concerns was the

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traffic from other daycares or schools that say that they weren't going to be, but now they're

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full-time uh we are okay with limiting the hours of operation to an aftercare facility because

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that's what this is so that it doesn't get uh for unit b so that it doesn't cause the neighborhood

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more uh traffic congestion but again i did not necessarily understand other than a gripe with

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commercial things popping up here and there uh any substantive reason why this would be a a

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detriment to the neighborhood okay why don't you bring your client one um i do want to add that

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that Ms. Hadar is, she has a bachelor's degree in physical education. She taught phys ed for four

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years and she has had about six plus years experience in the daycare and educational

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sphere. So she is not without experience and she's just trying to offer this up for people

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as a service. With that, I will ask Ms. Hadar to raise her hand, to be unmuted.

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tasha the door has been allowed to speak could you please state your name and spell for the

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stenographer my name is daria heder d-a-r-i-a last name heder h-a-y-d-a-r you swear or affirm

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to tell the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth yeah i do please proceed counsel

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Thank you. Ms. Haydard, did you have a chance to hear my testimony made to the board today?

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Yes. Yes.

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Was it true and correct to the best of your knowledge?

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Yes.

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And would you adopt my testimony as if it were your own?

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Yes.

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Thank you.

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Questions from the board?

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Yes.

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I have any questions.

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Yes, I do.

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How are the children going to get from wherever they are to this facility?

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So my understanding of many aftercare is that some schools do have buses that will transport students to certain locations.

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They also may get dropped off or, quite frankly, one of them, I doubt there are the elementary schools in this area.

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But there may be people that get dropped off by another method or a family member for those after hours.

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Ms. Hadar, if you have any insight into how or what, you know, the method you expect for them to be attending or how they intend to get there, please share.

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But you two, the special parents or family members are going to bring kids.

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some of the kids

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are going to be

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dropped off by parents

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or family members

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and

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I believe we're going to provide

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transportation

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in the future

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you're going to

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provide transportation

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from where these kids are

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to get to this facility

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is that what you're saying there again i apologize and that does refresh some of my thinking and

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prior conversations i would have answered that directly before but uh my client can still answer

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but i do believe that pickup from certain locations is something that they that she is looking to do

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with some of the families as well so that there would be pickup from their primary school uh for

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certain people i don't know that that's plans been enacted yet but other than again like i said

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certain schools will drop students off at potentially uh specific locations or nearby

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and i do want to state for the board that i do believe miss hadar's husband is with her

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he is you know assisting but if i don't believe he'll be testifying okay i mean because what

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you're saying is these are kids from 5 to 12 years old right yes and that the after school

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program here is going to be from 2 30 to 6 p.m so if the idea

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So if the idea is that these children need some place to go after school, the question is, how do they get to this place?

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And you're saying the family members are going to.

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well what i'm saying is it's either the the district itself can sometimes provide assistance

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uh miss hadar has indicated that she may do some of that with her business or try to

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accommodate make arrangements but there there i assume there are some times where parents

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are able to maybe get the child or you make arrangements to get the child to the aftercare

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so that the another primary caregiver or something can finish off their day at work

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I think there's a mix mix match of ways that students could get there or children to get there.

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All right. Okay, thank you. I have a question. Yeah, I have a question. So was the RCO during

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the RCO meeting was the RCO given this model of just aftercare? Or, you know, do they think it

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was just going to be like a full fledged daycare? They were given just the aftercare model, they did

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have concern about, well, then it spills over into this and then you, you know, you extend for this

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and get longer hours and so on and so forth. And I understand that that is always a concern of

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neighborhoods about the representations made to them, but that is why we're okay with provisos

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and other things that can be enforced to restrain the use and the times and so forth.

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Did you, did you offer some of the provisos, possibly the forcible provisos during the

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meeting to the RCO? Yes. This meeting did happen several months ago. We had attempted to meet with

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them again in hopes of gathering more data about the other educational centers in the area. But we

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were unable to meet with them again because they had already voted. And since it wasn't an amended

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application, they didn't feel that a second meeting was necessary, which is fine. But we did

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say that we would be willing to allow these provisos. We will limit it. We'll make the

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representations and we'll abide by them so that they're enforceable.

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Thank you.

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Questions should that work?

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Yeah, just I guess I have a comment.

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I'm kind of don't see the argument,

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I guess, that some folks from the community had about issues around traffic.

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There are a couple schools already there, so I don't I don't see why that would be an issue.

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I just wanted to go on the record to say that I don't see traffic as an issue for this project.

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Anyone else on the board?

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Questions or comments from our attorney, Hillary Emerson?

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Not at this time, Mr. Chair.

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Questions or comments from the virtual audience?

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Yes, Chair. I have a hand up by the name of Jack O'Hara.

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They have been allowed to speak.

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good afternoon mr hara good afternoon chairman bergen could you could you please uh state your

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name and spell for the court's sonography certainly jack o'hara o apostrophe h-a-r-a

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you swear or affirm to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth

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i do please proceed sir uh the issue uh mr kirk uh brought up about uh a dispute with the owner

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of the property uh that does exist that did not come into play with the decision uh to oppose this

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uh there there is a resident like mr kirk said there's a uh residential neighborhood right behind

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it there's now an eight foot high fence uh that runs along that uh that boundary uh and there is

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traffic on red line road that was not also uh something that was uh a bother bothersome uh it

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is uh there's two other uh daycares on on that strip and the neighbors uh feel like that was a

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mistake allowing those in there are kids outside making a lot of noise as kids do as they're

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expected to. But it's right outside their door now. And that did not occur in the past.

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This is another daycare. And Mr. Kirk, I believe your client said that that was those hours were

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going to expand in the future. So these, you know, this limited schedule is not something

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we were thinking of, but the reason for the opposition is really the amount of activity,

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more activity, that's backed up right to these houses. They're not big yards.

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that's backed up right to these houses. They're not big yards. These properties go right up to

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their border. And there's a lot of activity and noise that comes out of them. So that was really

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the amount. There is, you know, some congestion. They're going to have, you know, UPS warehouses

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planned for right across the street, directly across the street from the Bambi. So it is a

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concerned, but that did not come into play here for the opposition. Mr. Kirk, do you have any

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questions? I don't have questions. No, I just, I'd like to direct the board that this is the

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buffer zone that we're talking about between this property and the residentials behind and unit B

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is right up front here. And the other daycares, as you'll see, this is the, this is one and this

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is another. And then the Bambi daycare would be up lower on the screen, which I don't have in

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this picture but i i don't have any further questions i just would like the the board to

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know that the issues that i think uh mr o'hara we're talking about deal with this this area of

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the yards as well one other quick question how many how many people can you hold in there

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how many you have uh between 12 and 20 uh occupancy based on the thousand square feet

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thank you mr o'hara yeah you may i add mr uh chairman bergman may i add

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Sure.

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The buffer that Mr. Kirk is referring to, a lot of that has been thinned or removed.

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So that isn't as big of a buffer as it appears in the image there.

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Thank you.

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Wait a minute.

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Chair, can we keep this picture up?

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So where's the outdoor space for this daycare?

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Is there outdoor spaces you can show us on this photo?

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So the entrance is right where my hand is, and this is the front area. There's no intention of letting the students between 2.30 and 6 running around outside. I mean, that's not, this isn't a full daycare facility.

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as you would have here's the red lion elementary which has a yard and then you have the uh the

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what's when is this this is the uh the grow and learn center is right here so they they that's

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different when you're talking about kids out at recess or something like that there's no intention

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to allow the students to be running freely on the lawn out front which you know looks like this

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that's all the the other question would be is

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so there's no no issue of sending them outside am i correct correct that's they're not they're

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not and then the idea i guess the other thing would be is the issue of enlarging the time

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right i mean if it's an after-school program we gotta wait for kids to come out of school right

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so tell me about that i mean mr o'hara raised the issue about your client said

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she's going to change the hours? Not to my knowledge. I mean, if the intent is that this

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is a 2.30 to 6 p.m. opportunity for students. And I guess here's where I think I'm thinking

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about it. There was talk, well, the student after care, after school care, what does that mean for

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summertime? And I think that the answer to that is that there's also after camp. It's the idea of

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that hourly window being available for parents to use or guardians to use to to so that's the

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only thing i can think of in that sense okay thank you anyone else in the virtual audience

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i see no more hands at this time to you planning commission

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amy boyd with the planning commission the comprehensive plan recommends no change in

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the I-2 general industrial zoning at this location. There is no unique physical circumstance or

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condition of the property that would prevent it from being used in conformance with the zoning

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code. This is a continuous and viable industrial area and that the city has interest in maintaining

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