And we know with some amount of certainty that tomorrow the Governor is going to put forward Phase 2, or Part 2, rather, of his budget proposal, right?
And I think it would be fair to say, although I'd like to hear your perspective on it... Do you have any belief that what the Governor puts forward tomorrow will change in any way what the Governor put forward on March 4th, the result of which would be a change in what you've given us today?
My assumption is that there will be a significant change. And to add to that, our hope is that there will be a significant change.
Well, we would all hope that. So then let me ask you for the moment, for today, as opposed to some other day in the future, how good of a use of our respective 00111 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole times is it for us to have extensive discussion about this particular budget, which everyone now agrees across the rope here that more than likely the budget in front of us will not be the budget that ultimately gets approved by the SRC?
Well, I think it's very valuable to have that discussion, because once again, what we're trying to do is to set a stage. We're trying to use a worse case scenario. And we've got to understand -- And I'm certainly not trying to be condescending. This body certainly understands the legislative process in Harrisburg. The state budget deliberations could go into June or July. Meanwhile, schools need to know what their resources are going to be. When we start recruiting teachers, when we start doing class size reduction, we are already two weeks' late in getting out critical information to the schools about what they need to do to gear up for next year. So we have to give them a budget document. And we don't want to base that budget document on an even -- an optimistic forecast on what might emerge from Harrisburg. 00112 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole But that said and done, we're also motivated by a desire to eliminate -- to balance this budget based on a worse case scenario, so that we can fund our initiatives, in hopes that if there are additional resources coming from Harrisburg, we have at least re-prioritized to such an extent so that those resources can go into additional class size reduction, those resources can go into an expansion of early childhood, those resources can go into even larger after-school and extended day programs. And if you look at the five-year plan, whether you look at the first chart with the incorrect cited column or the second chart, the bottom line is, at the end of 2008, we hit a wall. And that is the structural deficit wall. That's when the deficit financing bond reserve is gone. While we would like to be in a position so that we won't hit that wall, and if we've cleaned out of this budget things that are not supportive of the educational process and things that we consider to be unnecessary, and that means, some of the additional money we get from Harrisburg can also help us eliminate that 00113 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole structural deficit so that the initiatives that were put into place become permanent.
Well, I can appreciate that. Why don't you then share with us in the budget, as introduced by the Governor has now actually been signed by the Governor, after, I believe, he used -- I think, the appropriate color is the blue pen.
So that's not to be confused with the color of the day. Tell us what the impact of the signed budget is for the School District.
There is no money for the General State Aid Formula. So, he's basically gutted most of education funding.
So as we sit here and speak, again, there's no money for education at the moment.
Is that what you're saying? 00114 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole
Well, there is very little new money for education or there's very little money for education.
How would the budget the Governor signed last week impact the projects and proposals that you've laid out earlier today?
Well, you know, I think the Governor's veto of that budget was designed to bring everybody to the table, because most School Districts would have to either dramatically increase property taxes or they would have to dramatically reduce their school days, or their school years, or their teachers' salaries.
Okay. I took down a couple of the things you said in the last response. You talked about this budget being used to set a stage, and that you wanted to clean out certain things, or cut out things that were unnecessary.
You know, we have 00115 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole schools that have many positions. In many of the high schools, it's not uncommon to have 10, 12, 4 teachers in positions where they may not actually 5 be teaching or certainly not teaching full-time. 6 They may be teaching part of the day. 7 It's not uncommon in high schools to 8 have things like slick coordinators, curriculum 9 coordinators, department chairs, and small 10 learning center coordinators. 11 There are many courses at the high 12 school level that we consider to be irrelevant. 13 For example, there's I believe 152 foreign 14 language courses. Now, I mean, that's -- I mean, 15 those are by category. Not to mention over 100 language arts courses, and et cetera, et cetera. So there is clearly a great degree of course inefficiency. And I would like to replace many of those courses. Courses that are not relevant, courses that are not certainly relevant to either a vocational education career, a quality college preparatory career, with honors and advance placement courses, or courses that I think are of a substantive nature So those are things that can be 00116 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole re-prioritized, and those are things that we will be re-prioritizing. But let me just give you other examples. There are many positions at the local school level: Student aides, teacher aides, classroom aides, SSAs, NTAs. Schools are inundated with supplemental positions. I would much rather prefer to go out and hire, you know, 500 more teachers, even if it's going to cost me 500 part-time two-hour or three-hour a day -- I'm sorry, three-hour a day SSAs, or basically classroom aides who only work half a day. So it's just a question of re-prioritizing what your local school budgets are. And obviously we control a lot of their budget allocations.
Were those items a part of -- I believe it's in the testimony -- the $48.5 million in cuts? Can you give us a list in a line item fashion --
-- of those cuts, how much in terms of funding they represent, 00117 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole and if you can --
-- I mean, why don't you give us maybe the top three at the moment?
I'll summarize the top three. First of all, the salary freeze, $5.7 million.
The salary freeze, $5.7 million. The SSAs, $5.2 million. The elimination of vacancies and over-appointments, $4.8 million. Administrative cuts -- Further administrative cuts, $4.2 million. There's a number of non-mandated transportation obligations that cost us in aggregate maybe about $2 million. There's other reductions, about $3.2 million. So those are kind of the big items. There's... Let's see. Elimination -- I mentioned vacancies. And more effective use of existing staff in classrooms. That's what we have. I mean, we have some classrooms in individual schools where the ratios are just -- just 00118 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole inappropriate. And we have to have -- And I'm not talking about 33 to 1 ratios. I'm talking about even 22 to 1 ratios. And that would save us upwards to about, perhaps, $3.2 million. Obviously then, there is also the municipal positions which is, I believe, $3.8 million. So, those are the categories. But I'll be more than happy to provide you with a copy of the breakdown.
Well, if you could send that to the Chair, the two Chairs jointly leading this committee. Let me ask Mr. Vallas, and then I know my time is up: The question was asked earlier with regard to the School District employees who are assigned to the Board of Revision of Taxes. Now, are those individuals on that list of $48.5 million in cuts?
And they're considered for the moment in the category of cleaning things out, and things that are unnecessary? Is that a part of that?
I would characterize 00119 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole them as things that are unnecessary. And they are assistant positions. They are not the principal positions.
They are assistant assessors. They are not basically assessors. They are assistant assessors. But, no; I would characterize those positions as positions that should not be in the education budget.
Okay. And... Well, how would you suggest or what is the proposal for how their work would be carried out? I think they're working on behalf of the school district; isn't that correct?
Well, one could argue. But again, I'd be more than happy to have conversations about those positions, both in terms of who controls them, who runs them, who makes sure that they come to school every day or they're basically in their offices every day. I'd be more than happy to have a conversation with you on that or with anyone on that. But the bottom line is, we don't think the 00120 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole positions that -- it's appropriate that those positions be in the budget. And obviously, when we're talking about hiring hundreds of additional teachers and, you know, re-prioritizing to the extent that we're re-prioritizing, we've got to make some critical decisions. And I felt that this was one item that we could identify that could be placed elsewhere. And as I mentioned, we'd be more than happy to discuss where those positions should be funded or how they should be funded. But I wanted to prepare a budget that I felt eliminated positions that didn't have a direct impact on the classroom.
Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Councilman Nutter. Your time is up.
Council President, if I might just interject a word, at your indulgence, I want to acknowledge Councilman Nutter's support. 00121 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole Again, what a difference a year makes. And also thank Council President Verna for assisting us during a very difficult time to secure funding from the public bond market. You may remember that. I know a number of you do. This budget is one that is a better budget than last year. Please do keep in mind, though, that we promised you then, and we had also done now the right thing, in terms of assuming a lean, mean financial situation, we're a year deeper into a recession. We are a year deeper into difficulties with budgets at the Commonwealth. We have looked at every line item, every person. We have in the last year eliminated positions. And with your support, we would ask your help in assisting us to come to a conclusion on the difficult decisions that we have to make physically going forward. So, thank you again.
Thank you, Madam Chair. 00122 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole Mr. Vallas, before I move on, I just want to make sure that what I have in front of me is a correct document. Your remarks today have "draft" written on them. I would like to have --
-- something other than a draft. I think we all have this document.
No. Those remarks -- My remarks are -- That is the document. But, once again, our eagerness was to provide the Council with not only the big book that's been provided in the past, but also supplemental material. And while we worked through the weekend to finalize the budget and to make sure that all the numbers were in the right line, my directive to Tim and company -- and which is why we spent time meeting with all the Council Members individually -- was to give you as much information as we could get out, so that we could 00123 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole basically -- you could have enough background material for this meeting. But that summarizes my remarks. I've made no additions to that since Friday.
Okay. In reference to -- In your remarks it indicates an area that I have a specific interest in, is your zero tolerance policy.
And based on the numbers, you know, I look and I see the 870 students who were released from court order placements, those 870 students. Based on 210,000 students, and you have 850 that are in alternative schools, I've gotten some calls recently that suggested that there are kids winding back up in the same school that they were originally disciplined and supposedly supposed to go to a different school. Do you have a written policy on -- If you talk to teachers, you talk to parents, with 210,000 kids in the system, and you only have 850 problem students, that's pretty good. That's not a lot of students. 00124 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole But if you listen to -- If you listen the parents, and you listen to the teachers and you listen to the custodial workers, and you listen to the school crossing guards, that number is kind of surprising to me, 850. So I'd like to know how a student and the criteria to get -- to be considered in the same category that the 850 are in because, you know, out of -- that's less than -- If you do the arithmetic, that's a very small percentage, if it's even a percent, of the students in the entire system, when we hear these supposed horror studies of conduct in our schools. So could you comment on that, please?
Sure. Well, let me respond by saying that it's actually double that number, because I believe that -- And again, the rough number is 850 students not being allowed back into their neighborhood schools because they've been released from the correctional facilities or the juvenile detention centers. That's Act 88. And incidentally, in your packet... in the blue book, we have breakdowns and summaries 00125 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole and discussions of all the subject areas that we've covered: High schools, discipline, everything, with hardcore numbers. So we really worked hard to put this material together. And you'll see that it's very, very comprehensive. If somebody can -- Who can refer to the -- What's the safety? That's right. He reminds me that there's an index in the front. 11. Okay. If you turn to , this kind of lays out the serious incident reports in their totality. But we'll provide you with the information. But let me point out that in addition to the students that are not allowed back in the detention -- in their neighborhood day schools because of Act 88 -- And 80 percent of those students are in school, they're just in alternative schools or evening programs. There's another 800-plus students who have been expelled from the system via the zero tolerance policy. So the actual numbers of students not being allowed into their day school because of the zero tolerance policy in Act 88 is closer to 1700. 00126 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole But let me point out the number of students that we've expelled probably dwarfs any other major school system in the country, even New York which is about four times our size. And at the end of the day, you're simply not going to be able to expel every single student who is a bad behaved student. To a certain extent, we're going to also have to work at better school management and better classroom management, because it's going to take a comprehensive approach. The only thing -- And I'm not even saying that this is preventing us from expelling more kids, because we've been very aggressive about expulsions. And I think by the time this year is over we would have probably expelled more kids than any other major school system. I'd be surprised -- In Chicago, a school system twice as large, at our peak we expelled 750 kids, and we were considered to be one of the tougher schools when it came to zero tolerance. But right now, the alternative -- you can't -- the alternative schools are at -- 00127 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole are busting at the seams. CP has 1700 students. That's created its own problems in the Kensington area, with some friction between the Edison students and the CP students. We're -- Now we've put out an RFP to identify alternative school providers who we can expand the alternative schools network so that we can get students into alternative quality, alternative placements that are smaller in size and that perhaps are closer to their neighborhoods. So we're moving very aggressively. But you're going to have cases where students are allowed back in the school because perhaps their time under Act -- Article -- Act 88 has expired, because it's intended to be a transition program by state law. And sometimes students who are expelled for specific reasons will be readmitted back into the system, because sometimes expulsions are permanent, and sometimes expulsions can be for a semester or for a year.
How do I respond to a letter or a phone call that suggests... 00128 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole
...alleges that the children that are sent to alternative school placements are not winding up in alternative schools, that they're winding up in other schools in some other area of the City, not an alternative school?
Well, the way you respond is by calling my office, which many people do, and communicating that letter, that concern to me. I then -- What I usually do is, I will have Gwen Morris investigate. And if Gwen Morris finds that a student has been transferred inappropriately, basically that student will be sent back to the school system that they came from.
If they were a discipline problem, and they were supposed to be sent to an alternative school, first of all, I 00129 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole would wish you could tell me that that isn't the case, that if they're deemed to be a discipline problem and should be going to an alternative school, that they shouldn't be going to another school that's five blocks away. They were going back to the one they came from.
Well, there's two or three different type of categories of transfers. Sometimes it's the kid who's transferred to an alternative school for violating the zero tolerance policy. That student should not suddenly show up at a neighborhood school. But then, a lot of times there's the disciplinary case of that student who's a disciplinary problem at one school. They haven't violated the zero tolerance policy or gone through expulsion hearings. And sometimes what will happen is, to escape expulsion, sometimes the parent themselves will try to transfer her kid to another school. So when those cases happen, and it's brought to our attention, we respond. We are always taking action against students who show up 00130 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole at a school that they're not supposed to be attending. I've also told all of our regional superintendents and I've told our principals when I've had my principle meetings with them individually, that if you feel that a student is being transferred to your school from another school, you know... Because a bigger problem is the students that are causing disruptive behavior in one school being transferred to another neighborhood school... You shouldn't take any student that you feel is being transferred for disciplinary reasons, and you should bring those issues to our attention so that we can take appropriate action. So I'll be more than happy to, first of all, get you information by tomorrow on your letter so we can get all the facts in the case. And... But, you know, I mean, the rule of thumb is, I tell people if you call us and you bring it to our attention or if we get a request through the school safety officer, or for that matter, through the Bully Hot Line, we will investigate those cases and we will get them 00131 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole resolved.
I'll wait until the next go around, because I'm a bit confused on the policy itself. Because if you, in fact, say that a person -- a child is a discipline problem and they're supposed to go to an alternative school, I want to find out in the next go around what's not happening, how they could wind up in another school, or back to their own school, if they've been told that they're going to be sent to an alternative school. And I'll wait for the next go around for your response.
Mr. Vallas, I think it would help if we had copies of the Zero Tolerance Policy and the Code of Student Conduct.
We'll be more than 00132 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole happy to provide another copy.
Okay. And I just have a question along those same lines. Does Act 88 have an age limitation on expulsion? I mean, what would we do with a second grader, say, that...
Well, there's more of a problem with the younger children. I mean, we can be in the expulsion business. But the bottom line is, there aren't a lot of facilities out there that can provide alternative placement for primary care children. So our approach has been to develop a model to make sure that schools have time out rooms or, you know, alternative placement rooms. We've begun to put all of the teachers through training on how to deal with students of primary age who are having problems, and the SMART program is simply not limited to the older kids. If we have younger kids that are chronically disruptive, this is the Saturday Detention Program, we actually enroll them in alternative placement. 00133 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole But whether we like it or not, we're going to have to get into the alternative placement business. And let me point out that in a system this large -- And let me just say that we inherited a situation where they weren't expelling too many people at all, and where intra-school district transfers of disruptive kids was the practice rather than the exception. So I think we've made great strides towards cracking down on disciplinary problem students. But you're always going to have cases where students or sometimes parents will try to avoid the neighborhood school, so she'll show up at a neighborhood school, or try to avoid an alternative school so they'll show up at a neighborhood school. And they'll try to enroll that child in that neighborhood school. And sometimes the principal, unwilling to just accept or just to reject somebody out of hand, will try to accommodate that student. Because this is a school system that has the 30 percent plus mobility rate. So there are always children moving from school to school for 00134 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole reasons other than disciplinary problems. And when you have that type of mobility, a lot of times students who are moving for disciplinary reasons will fall through the cracks. But a lot of times all we can do is clarify the policy and then be reactive, and then basically tell principals, which we've done, that if they have a concern over somebody who's being transferred to their school, they should not accept that student.
Thank you. And just for a point of clarification, the number of students that Councilman Rizzo was talking about in the very beginning were those students that are moving, transitioning from youth detention back into the Philadelphia Public School System. And... But, how many students attend Boone, Miller? How many people does CEP contract to serve?
Sure. Right now, I can give you those numbers off the top of my head.
CP, I believe, has 1700 students at their one facility alone. 00135 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole
I'm guessing a little bit. I think Miller probably has about 250, 300 students. And as you know, CEP is going to be taking over Miller operations, because we need to first of all depopulate. The CEP campus is far too close to Nueves Esperanza and to the Edison School. And I believe Boone probably has about 300 students. Of course, there's also Shalfa.
But we're busting at the seams, which is why we've gone out with RFP. And right now the Delaware Valley... There's a alternative school. I forgot the name of it -- I apologize -- that we've approved. And there's at least three other alternative school providers that we are negotiating with. And of course, we've been working with Reverend Lusk on setting up an Alternative Schools Charter, three sites, about 150 students apiece. So our hope next year is to have about ten sites with six different providers, because we've got to get into the alternative schools business. 00136 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole Right now there's a lack of capacity. That doesn't mean we won't expel. I mean, you know, we've expelled more kids than any school system in the country, not to mention the very tough Act 88, which doesn't allow students back in. But the bottom line is, this is going from a system that rarely expelled and that always transferred for disciplinary reasons to a system with one of the tougher zero tolerance policies in the country. So, you know, it's a transition. It's a transition for teachers, principals. It's certainly a transition for administrators. So you've got to be patient with us while we refine the program. We've also worked very closely, Madam President, with City agencies to coordinate the services that are provided for those students particularly who are being released from detention centers. So they have the probation officer. In other words, all the students that are -- that are exiting through Act 88, 80 percent of those students are now in some sort of 00137 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole alternative placement. And they're all being screened before they're being put in those alternative placements. So we're really at the cutting edge. But it's going to take a while. We're always going to have individual -- Not a day goes by that I don't get e-mailed or called or someone contacts me directly or comes through the hot line or we deal with the Safe Schools advocate, that we don't have a case that we have to check into because perhaps procedures weren't followed or maybe procedures were followed too aggressively. So, it's a process. But we've been very aggressive here. And we'll certainly stand by our statistics.
First to give Mr. Vallas a little rest, I'd like to address some 00138 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole questions to Mr. Nevels. The appointment of Mr. Vallas's superintendent; who was responsible for that appointment? Who made it? I raised the question in an approving sense because it's the one good thing I know that has occurred in the school system. And I'll explain further why I said that.
And I'll explain further why I said that. And if the School Reform Commission had something do with it, since I'm a constant critic of your having taken -- your existence takes away from the City of Philadelphia the power, in my judgment, the City of Philadelphia ought to have, and that is to make its own decisions, rather than have people from the state, who don't live in Philadelphia, who are not Philadelphians, who are not responsible to anybody. We don't welcome, at least I don't, and the body of people I speak for don't welcome outside control. We think Philadelphia ought to 00139 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole be Mr. Vallas's boss and not a State School Reform Commission. And from that burden, and as I've explained to Mr. Nevels, it's not intended to be personal at all to him or any member of the Commission. It's just that it offends me, and I think it offends people who are concerned about sound municipal government, that a City the size of Philadelphia is deemed to be incapable of running a School Board, while people from outside the state who have had practically no contact with the school before, suddenly are brought in as experts. So from that point of view, did the School Reform Commission discover Mr. Vallas? How does he come to be our superintendent? If you deserve credit, I want to give it. I want to be able to say, School Reform Commission, you did one good thing.
And I'm trying to take it, Councilman. I'm trying to take the credit. There was a search committee that was formed. And on that search committee it was 00140 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole headed by Commissioner James Gallagher, the President of Philadelphia University, and my colleague, Sandra Dungee Glenn. And they coordinated that search. It was a national search. Hydrogen Struggles, the international search firm, was involved. And a number of candidates were interviewed. The candidate list was narrowed. The cream clearly rose to the top. And we've had the good fortune for a little over seven months to have Mr. Vallas on board. So, believe me, on behalf of the SRC, thank you for the compliment.
And I would hope that you feel the same way a year from now, Councilman. Thank you.
Well, at least there's one thing I can say happened to benefit the school system, because Mr. Vallas is unlike a number of other school superintendents, some of whom I thought did a good job and some of whom I thought did not. But Mr. Vallas has appeared to 00141 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole me to be both a man of vision and a planner, and combines both, and an activist. He does things. For example, let me give you an illustration of why I became a convert. And that was because the Central High School athletic field at Summerville and Ogontz Avenue for years have been plagued by a heating problem. And twice a year I would call plenty of time before an election, and say, what's with the heater, because May can be cold. Sometimes you don't need the heater. November can be very cold sometimes. Sometimes you don't need the heater. It might be warm. What's the situation going to be? And they've always promised me they're going to do their best, and they would arrange some patchwork, which never worked. When the heat was needed, it wasn't there. I got all kinds of complaints and we lost voters, who just wouldn't come, and we lost election workers who couldn't stand the cold. I called Mr. Vallas, assuming that I was going to meet the same kind of nonsense. Mr. Vallas didn't believe the story, I think, when 00142 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole he first heard it, because he couldn't imagine it existed. But he said, the heat will be restored. It will be there. It will be done permanently. Now, that was just about a week before the election. I poo-pooed it. I wrote in my note, among the promises not to be kept. I wrote that. Well, you know, the next morning there were three trucks in front of Central High School, and they stayed there for the day, almost to election day. You know what? We got permanent correction of the heating situation and saving the School District lots of money, instead of twice a year expending a lot of money for temporary purposes. It's a permanent employment. I began to believe him on that, so I raised a few other questions. And on all questions, whenever he's promised something, he's followed through. Now, I'm not used to that. I'm used to even good people, people whose whole heart 00143 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole seemed to be in developing good schools always had good intentions. And I don't know why they weren't able to do what he did. For example, he's coming in and he's developing a Capital Program. And he means it. And I didn't believe it when I fist heard it. I said, the man's out of his mind. Because why is it that he could think of how to get it done, but nobody else was able to do it, even though we've had a number of visionaries, and well-intentioned superintendents. So I want to pay that respect. Of course, there will be criticism later down the road for Mr. Vallas, so we shouldn't think that everything's going to be glory.
But I did want -- Yes, the heaters coming up in May. You have two months. But it's working fine. And, you know, it's improved the condition for the sports teams. Central High sports teams suffered terribly, and they could never do anything. But he apparently has the knack of making principals 00144 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole and other administrative officials really feeling responsible for results; not only good ideas, but they've got to produce some and they've got to work at them. And I think that's probably the key to his success. So, Mr. Vallas, we welcome you, based upon your record. And if the School Reform Commission is in any way responsible for your being here, we thank them, but say to them, it's time for them to leave, having done the one good thing. Now, you don't have to comment, Mr. Vallas.
Thank you, Madam Chair. 00145 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole
Actually, what I'm going to do, I'm going to get around the five-minute rule. I'm going to get all my questions in and let you guys take up the time with the answers. First of all, let's go down the list here. You earlier referenced the Masterman School. I know that -- It's my understanding that Masterman at some point in time had submitted an expansion plan. And I was talking to the principal, Miss Braverman, about working with her last year about that, so I'd like to get a response from that. 00146 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole Did you first get the expansion plan --
The issue with respect to the minority participation on...
...school expansion, capital programs and purchases, I'd really like to get a sense of where we're going to go with that.
And one other 00147 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole issue that's been brought up on two or three occasions during the course of the hearings today, both in terms of questions and responses. I'm still not clear in terms of the responses on the BRT issue.
And actually, the Parking Authority issue. And I'm getting a sense that your preference is that we talk about that at a later time or date, maybe not on the record, given the potential sensitivity of some of that. But my concern is that the time line in that discussion, do we have that --
Well, let me respond to all four of your questions. First of all, let me take the last ones first. We will have time to talk about both. This is not where the discussion will end on this budget. Then we'll have time to talk both privately and publicly, if need be, on the BRT issue, as well as the Parking Authority issue. Let me point out that if there is -- When there is a change in the state budget relative to the Governor's original budget on education, we will come before this Council to publicly discuss our recommendations for changes. So we will have this process again. So if it's passed in June or July, and then we're going to make changes in mid July, we will come back, at this Council's call, to discuss those changes before we pass those -- approve those changes. And Mr. Nevels has -- That's our commitment as a team here to you that we will do that. So, this is not the end of the process. 00149 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole And so -- And obviously, any final issue regarding the BRT and the Parking Authority will be discussed with the Council. I will point out that my motivation with the Parking Authority was to address this issue of the money that was committed to the School District, knowing full well that the Parking Authority doesn't have $40 million to give to the School District. It just doesn't happen.
So the feeling here is, if we could get a small revenue stream, we could get then do a financing to do the massive one-time or up-front new textbook and curriculum instructional material purchases that we're going to need to move this system forward. We were thinking of doing the financing ourselves, but obviously rather than the ear-marked $2 million or $3 million out of our $20 million school books -- school textbook bond to finance that, certainly if we're able to secure the money from the Parking Authority to do that, then obviously that means I don't have to touch the regular line. 00150 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole
I understand the political realities of the Parking Authority, and the uncertainties of the Parking Authority, as we move ahead.
But I just want to show you, you won't be reading in the paper about what we're doing. Any final agreement we reach will be before you. Regarding MBE-WBE, I will provide the Committee with an outline of our MBE-WBE strategy, along with the material concerning our diversity curriculum. I have those materials with me. I will get it to the Committee before the end of the day. And Kim Sanctor is here to talk about that. When we reconvene tomorrow, I'll certainly allot her or you can allot her time to talk at length about that initiative. But I will tell you this: Not only are we going to be very aggressive about MBE-WBE; in Chicago our MBE-WBE targets were over 50 00151 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole percent. And it took us a number of years to achieve that, but by the time we were done, close to 55 percent of all our school construction dollars had gone to minority and women-owned businesses, not to mention the work hours performed. But obviously, we're going to set realistic goals, but those goals will be achieved. But they will also include outreach. They'll include monitoring of vendor assistance, to make sure that when someone is entering into a contract with us if and they've committed to certain MBE-WBE numbers, those numbers are achieved. And it's also going to include working with contractors, both general and subs, so that we can get them to form partnerships before the bid process begins and --
With respect to what you did in Chicago, in your attempts to achieve lofty goals, such as you've indicated, did 00152 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole you run into any legal impediments during the course of --
No. We had three goals. Goal number one was to do targets. First of all, we did mandate them. Okay. These were targets, and we exceeded those targets, number one. Number two, the second thing we did was we worked really aggressively to make sure that the workplace was a diverse workplace. And we actively recruited. We had jobs fairs. We did a number of things. We monitored our own work sites. We had assist agencies. And I don't think one of -- You know, I think rarely if ever did we ever have a protest. And over 50 percent of the hours that were performed on the job sites were performed by minority workers. This is all documented.
If you can pull that off in Philadelphia, that will be a minor miracle, not to have a protest at a construction site. 00153 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole
We have plenty of protests out there, but usually they are protesting, you know, the park district site.
It doesn't matter. It's going to one side or the other.
It will happen. But the third thing that we did which was very helpful is, we did things like, we did wrap-around insurance so that fledgling minority companies could do the work but didn't have the resources or couldn't get the insurance were able to get insured. We also did things like quick pay, accelerated pay so that we would pay our contractors and subcontractors in a timely manner. And the contracts we would negotiate would always require that the generals pay the subs within something like 60 days or 30 days of getting paid by us themselves. So we're going to bring all those traits. Now, clearly, you know, having numbers that high are maybe too ambitious. But there's no reason why can't have a legitimate quality at the outset 25-5 MBE-WBE program and hit 00154 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole those numbers. And I will cite once again the Commission's recent approval of the prime contractor who's going to oversee our Capital Plan, and the fact that 43 percent of that contract is going to minority and women-owned businesses. And this is a tremendous contractor who has done this and has experience, and the minority participants are legitimate minority participants. I will make a final comment about Masterman. The problem with Masterman is, if you look at Masterman, where are they going to build that additional building, on the only parking space that that has? That will only wreak havoc in the school, but it will wreak havoc in the community. What I suggested to them is, first of all, I said, why should I build an addition for Masterman when I can build a new Masterman, when I can build a second Masterman? So rather than just adding an addition to Masterman, let me build a new magnet 00155 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole high school. And if there's a question of overcrowding at Masterman, the Franklin Learning Center will soon be vacant, and the Franklin Learning Center is three to four blocks away from Masterman.
I think the thought was in maintaining the atmosphere of Masterman at that location, sometimes there's a certain synergy about a location --
And that was the thinking, you know, if you have a satellite Masterman, so to speak, then you may not be able to recapture the same type of atmosphere that's there at that school.
My thinking here was to have -- If we're going to open up new magnet 00156 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole schools, they should be like Cappa or like Masterman. They should be modeled after those schools. So it's not so much a satellite of Masterman as is -- it's another Carver or Cappa, Central magnet school. But one solution, and, you know, it's going to take some convincing, is if Masterman itself needs additional space, the new high school construction aside, the Franklin Learning Center which will be moving to a new high school when that high school is constructed, offers a building that is an excellent building within walking distance of Masterman. So you could easily -- You could easily relieve some of the space by perhaps having part of the middle grades program at that school. It's within walking distance. But I think I'm meeting with the Masterman community meeting this week, and I'll be more than happy to keep you informed.
Councilman, your time is up. Do you mind waiting for the second go around? Thank you. 00157 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole The Chair at this time recognizes Councilman Goode.
Thank you, Madam President. Good afternoon. I'm going to skip all the budget issues, because even after tomorrow we still won't know what the budget can --
-- will look like. I also will skip some of the programmatic issues, because I've looked at your framework for what you can work with the budget as you've proposed so far. I want to deal more so with the implementation of your reform strategy, and the fact that I have a lot of confidence in the work that you've done, and Mr. Nevels, and your team that you've assembled, who I've met with. But there are no principals and no 21 teachers here. And so, there's a whole 'nother layer of implementation here that really is a case of where the rubber meets the road. So I want to start with, what is the role of principals under your reform strategy? Is 00158 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole it an increasing role or a decreasing role?
Well, it's an increasing role, because as we move towards a more structured standardized curriculum, that's going to necessitate greater familiarity on the part of the principals with those new curriculum and instructional models. You know, as we -- as we refine our Capital -- not our Capital Program -- our public safety program, that's going to put additional burdens on the principal, because obviously this is a Zero Tolerance Policy that has to be followed and has to be adhered to. Obviously, we also have to support our principals consistently. As we move to do system wide class size reduction -- and I can't diminish the opportunity that we have to really significantly reduce class size -- you know, the budgetary templates that we're going to be providing to the principals is something that they're going to have to be trained on. Because I have a lot of schools in this District -- we do -- that have very small class sizes. And then we have schools five blocks 00159 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole away that have 33 kids in every classroom. So as we present them with the model, we're going to be able to give them the resources to reduce class size through the third grade, but they're going to have to help us get the numbers down through fourth and eighth grade. That's going to put additional burden on the principals. But that said and done, we're going to have to provide them with support.
-- in a number of ways because you've raised the bar in terms of reform. But do you view the system as being more centralized or decentralized, in terms of administration?
I think in some ways it's going to be more centralized, because we're going to require a standardized curriculum, we're going to -- obviously, as we provide more support to schools when it comes to the school discipline policy, that naturally centralizes the system. We're going to be more aggressive 00160 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole about working with the schools to show them how to allocate their resources, particularly their Federal Title One resources. So it is going to be more centralized. But then on the other hand, in certain ways we're going to do more decentralization. Our goal is to make sure that all of the schools have parent councils, to make sure that there are parent outreach programs in all of the schools, that there are what we call parent help desks, that the councils that are at those schools have some input when it comes to -- when it comes to how the schools supplement their curriculum or what supplemental programs they provide. So while it is going to be more centralized in the areas where it needs to be centralized, to maintain standards and quality control, we are going to really work very hard to establish greater parental representation and community representation in local governance.
I guess you know where I'm going is, in terms of accountability, how do you expect, in the context of what you just 00161 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole said, to hold principals accountable for academic performance? I mean, what real responsibility and authorities do they have individually?
Well, you know, we realize that to a certain extent many principals have one arm tied behind their back, because, you know, they don't have site selection. They don't have total control over the resources in their schools. There are a lot of obstacles that principals face. But look, on the operations side, we're deferring more to principals when it comes to decisions or when it comes to recommendations. You now have an operations side that's not going to ignore a principal when that principal calls complaining about custodians or an engineer or what have you. There is going to be more receptiveness. Plus, our move towards working out an arrangement so that we close the window on teacher movement for seniority purposes --
Can you specifically address how you're empowering principals, in terms of the reform process. Tell me what powers and authority and responsibility they will have, under your reform strategy, that they didn't have before.
I believe, from a school maintenance standpoint, a school operations standpoint, principals are going to have more control. So in other words, this whole idea that schools close after 3:30 is gone.
So if their after school extended day programs and supplemental programs are --
In terms of academic performance, we're going -- because we're going to be providing these structured curriculum models, because we're going to be standardizing professional development, obviously, we're going to expect the principals to implement our reform 00163 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole initiatives. And those reform initiatives are initiatives that have to be followed. So to the degree to which principals work to implement those initiatives and the degree to which those initiatives are resisted by individuals within those schools, that would be grounds for taking disciplinary action against those individuals.
But there are no 11 new powers, in terms of empowering principals, in terms of academic performance?
You know, there's no 14 new statutory powers. We do have the power to dictate curriculum. We do have the power to dictate professional development. So the degree to which we use our powers to mandate certain things, and we exercise those powers through our principals, to that degree the principal's authority is going to be enhanced.
Yeah, it is centralized. 00164 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole
Thank you, Madam President. Mr. Vallas, we've had discussions before about the varying degrees of needs of children when it comes to their education choices and the diversity of the District. One of the things I guess we're all hoping is, that if after moving through our school system a student has the ability to choose to go on to a college and to ultimately get a good job so they could raise a family and be good taxpayers in the City.
I think one of the things that was lacking recently was attention to vocational education. And I would you to speak a little bit about how we get our kids involved who want to choose that course or path in life, the voc ed course. When I was younger, voc ed was not 00165 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole looked upon as a very terrific choice for a young person in the public school system. I disagree with that theory and concept. I think that dignified work can be done with the hands as well as your head. And I want to know what you're looking to do to enhance the image of voc ed as a choice for kids, and also how we can determine which kids make more sense in moving in one direction or another, either the college -- Everybody that wants to go to college should have the ability to go, if they desire. But some young people would like to build, you now, beautiful cabinetry and be able to stick their head inside of the electronic ignition of a car, and other kinds of things that can make good livings and provide dignified work. Could you talk a little bit about that?
Yes, absolutely. And I know Craig Williams is here, and he can certainly articulate the details much better than me. But let me summarize what we are going to do. In a nutshell, the first thing we're going to do is, just as we're reviewing our 00166 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole college preparatory curriculum courses, the courses that are being offered in the schools that are of the college preparatory nature, we're also reviewing all of our vocational education courses. The idea -- The goal in mind of jettisoning that stuff which is -- which are courses in name only and not in substance, in upgrading the legitimate courses that are out there, that's number one. And obviously, Paul Betelman's committee, his task force on business school partnerships and the provision of that task force that talked about setting up these business councils, to help set standards and to help guide our career to work programs is obviously something that's going to be part of that. So, first of all, it's cleaning up what's there. Secondly, it's working with the academies to jettison the academy programs that are just academy programs in name only, and to expand those academy programs that are legitimate academy programs. Because we can be doing much more in terms of electronics and automotives, et cetera, 00167 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole if we simply clean up what's there and support the academies, because in the past the academies have been -- It's like many things that the School District has done. You've got programs in there but they atrophy. No one supports them. Even if they're good programs, they never really get the support. I mean, not a day goes by that the robotics people don't contact me asking for minimal School District support for their robotics clubs. The third thing we're going to do is, we are going to expand the number of vocational educational program offerings by in effect going off site. We've been negotiating with City colleges, community colleges with Devrie, with a number of public and private technical training institutes so that we can enroll our kids in off-campus job training programs as part of their high school experience. So what will happen will be, after year two in high school, the year three and four, 00168 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole the day will be spent taking your college -- your courses required for graduation. And the afternoon will be spent at city colleges or community colleges enrolled in a vocational/technical education program. That is the third thing. The fourth thing we're going to do is, part of our agreement, the support that we receive from the unions in getting the four-part bidding contract waiver, was that we sign a project labor agreement with the unions, which we're happy to sign. And that agreement which will in effect say, if you're working on a school project from Philadelphia, you've got to hire union labor, and you've got to pay them union scale. Part of that includes an apprenticeship program. So all the unions have communicated to us an eagerness to ensure that we establish an apprenticeship program as part of the project labor agreement that is legitimate. And we hope within the next month or so to finalize the project labor agreement so that we have a legitimate apprenticeship program. 00169 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole And then finally fifth. The fifth thing that we're going to do is, we are going to begin forming what we call student businesses. So, students that are in vocational ed, whether it's the culinary arts, whether it's automotive engineering, whether it's computers, technology, whatever, they will be allowed to form little student business clusters. So we will in effect give them work in the School District.
One of the things in -- if you ever look at the wrought iron fencing that's done in many of the schools in Chicago, that fencing was done by private companies in Simeon High School, because the Simeon High School students were part of a fencing contract. Well, we're going to do the same thing with culinary arts. We're going to do the same thing with landscaping. We are going to do the same thing with computer clubs. So the idea in mind is to identify these students who are in this vocation, but then to give them some work over the summer. This will allow us to partner them with companies that are doing business with the schools, or contractors 00170 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole that are building our schools. So if we can accomplish those five basic things in the next couple years, I think we can go a long way towards repairing the damage that's been done for years of neglect. I will close by just making one final comment. The struggle that we face in vocational ed is also the reality that for many children to get into the legitimate well-paid vocational technical education jobs that are out there, they've got to have a 10th or 11th grade reading or math level or they're just not going to cut it. So there's no substitution for us providing them a quality education, as you well know, in the basics. So those are our five areas that we're approaching. But I'll make sure that my staff provides the Committee with a summary of the high school component, as it applies to vocational ed.
You're 00171 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilman Ortiz.
President Verna, but prior to the Councilman speaking, I just want to bootstrap on a comment that was made by the CEO in connection with Councilman Kenney's remark. I would like you to keep in mind as Council people the following scenario: We've got a five-year Capital Program that's about to be initiated. In probably each of your Districts there is an eighth grader who, by virtue of the project labor agreement, and so on, who could be laying brick, and doing any number of trade functions, in terms of the completion of schools and the construction of schools five years out from now. I think that's really exciting. I mean, just think about that. The largest non-stadia construction project in the city's history, and our children, a child in eighth grade right now, has an opportunity to learn a trade as a result of this incredible opportunity. Sandra Glenn and I have talked about it at length. This is a commission that is committed to it. 00172 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole And of course, as we look at our existing Dobbins and Bok schools as well, we're committed to this. Work is honorable, and we're committed to it. Thank you for the indulgence, Council President.
Mr. Nevels, just as a follow-up to your remarks, because I was actually going to ask a question concerning your vocational education in the area of trades. It's my understanding that the -- Well, I'll just speak for Bok, Bok in particular... has a real problem with getting the young people that are coming out of the training in the building trades to connect them with employment and apprenticeship opportunities in the trade unions. Do you have any information available on that today, just to see just how much -- We were -- I was still in recruiting once, to try and get people interested, minorities in particular, in signing up for some of the apprenticeship programs through the building trade unions. 00173 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole And the response that I got back from Bok through another party was that they've tried it; it doesn't work; they're not able to get their young people in the building trades here in Philadelphia. So I was going to ask that question. But since Mr. Nevels raised the issue, I'd like to know if there's some communication that needs to take place with the trade unions to find out whether that's true, the response that I received. What is it we need to do?
I'm sure it's true. It was certainly true where I came from, and it's been true nationally. It's difficult for many individuals to get into the trades. But let me tell you, it's a two-part problem. Part number one is, we're not giving the young people the skills that they need to even give them a chance to get in. Okay? But part number one is the fact that the vocational education programs have been shells of what they should be. So you know what? We almost create an excuse for not allowing the young people in because they're not taught the skills. 00174 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole Now, we're going to eliminate that. We're going to eliminate that because we're going to teach them the skills. And one of the reasons that we're eager to form like our student businesses is so that we can give them the experience, too. That's number one. Number two, is the second part of the problem, the fact that many of the trades and apprenticeships are either in reality or the perception is that they are closed. And of course we can all draw our own conclusions. And I think we probably share the same conclusions. But the bottom line is the project labor agreement and the $1.5 billion that we'll spend on school construction is designed to be -- to serve as kind of a battering ram to knock down that door so that our young people can have those opportunities. But we got to train them. You got to train them. Because if we don't do a good job training them -- You know, go to our vocational ed gems, Dobbins and Bok. You know, you walk in and you don't see, you know, electrical engineering. You don't 00175 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole see, you know, refrigeration and air conditioning. You don't see automotive training going on in those schools. So the bottom line here is, we're going to make sure that we're training them so that they have the skills for those apprenticeships and internships that they open up. And then the second thing we're going to do is, we're going to use things like the Project Labor Agreement as a way to open those doors. And the Council's going to have an opportunity to monitor us. I will also make a final point in that both -- We will build a new Dobbins high-tech, state-of-the-art, vocational educational high school. We're looking at national models. Dobbins is one of the replacement schools we have planned. We're also very eager, if we're able to secure additional money down the road -- once again, the Rendell second budget -- to do a new Bok Vocational and Technical Education School. And when we do them, we will attempt to build those schools and to partner those 00176 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole schools with the trades on the outset so that they become vocational technical education centers that the unions have a vested interest in. So we think we'll make progress. And obviously the Council is going to be able to hold me accountable in the next year.
Thank you. I loved that last statement, that the unions have a vested interest in. Been asking for four years for the unions to have a vested interest in this City, four years. Let me say at the outset, Mr. Nevels, Mr. Vallas, I've sat at this chair now for 18 years. I've seen stuff come before us, in terms of the Board of Ed. And it's always been a woe and us. It's always been about the negatives, in terms of the public education system. It's always been about the things that they cannot do because they don't have the money. And Irv Davis, may he rest, always -- always... 00177 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole (Laughter.)
No. He's retired. He's retired. UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: He's resting.
No, but he rests. I didn't say he rest in peace, did I? I didn't say rest in peace. (Laughter.)
I said rest, because he's retired. But he always viewed how to structure a budget so that the true figures would never show. And Mr. Nevels, I've been one of the harshest critics about the state takeover of this City of the Board of Education. But I have to give you credit. The first hurdle, in terms of us going forward, is to give hope to people that things can change. I think between the appointment of Mr. Vallas and the policies that have been pursued, there is a certain sense of hope within 00178 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole parents across the City. Because I visit the schools. I have two kids in public schools that I go to, and I take them every morning. And now that my wife is traveling to Harrisburg every day, I got to get up and take them to school and stand there with the parents. Yes, Blondell, I do that. But there is hope. And Mr. Nevels, I got to give you, as I criticized before and I kept on. Because we needed that. And we still have those privatization companies out there that I would hope we can phase out, and I think Mr. Vallas hopes the same thing. I think the first hurdle has been achieved, which is hope. There's a relationship now between yourselves and the PFT which we never had before. You're the first individual that has come before this Council in 18 years and said, I'm going to achieve new buildings, smaller classes, more teachers, and better training, and we're going to raise those averages, and we're going to cooperate and bring the teachers into the process. That message has never before been said to this 00179 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole Council in that way. Other people brought things, policies. Children Achieving was a nice slogan, but it was also tied into the fact that we don't have it. We don't have the resources. You're coming in, you say, look, I have a certain amount of resources. I'm going to do certain things. Hopefully, the Governor will act upon what he has said he's going to act upon. But I have to salute you, Mr. Nevels, and salute you for the hiring of Mr. Vallas.
My friends in Chicago speak very highly of him. And they're all very much, in terms of education, Congressman Guiterrez is one of the persons that really told me -- In fact, he called me up, he says, you stole Mr. Vallas from us and we want him back. And I don't think we're going to give you back. Not unless this thing doesn't work. If this thing doesn't work, then we'll send you back. But, you know, in terms of the building -- And I want to get into -- you spoke 00180 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole to, because I want to get you on the record.
I'm going to come back to education. But in terms of, I mean, 1.5 in terms of construction that is going to go on. I want a time line. And I want to know how blacks, women, Latinos, how the contractors of this City, minority contractors of this City are going to be able to get the opportunity to be part and parcel not only of the subcontracts but the prime contracts and all of the other stuff that goes down. And then, I think Wilson Goode asked a question the other day, because we were having hearings about contractors and building in this City. And it really doesn't translate that if you hire a black contractor or Latino contractor, that means that you're going to hire black people, Latinos, and so on, to do the work that needs to be done. It means, do you have a black contractor? It means, do you have a Latino contractor? But the workers are non-minority. 00181 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole And we would like from you -- I would like -- if it is going to be minority contractors I want minority workers, and not just -- And laborers are very good, and they earn a lot of money and they are terrific. But I want electricians, plasterers, roofers, floor layers, bricklayers. I want us represented in each and every one of those schools. If those schools are going to be built in our neighborhood, God darn it, let it be built by our hands. Okay. And Philadelphians. People from Philadelphia. And I want to hear you say on the record that that is going to happen.
Well, let me respond by saying, yes, on the record, that will happen. And I like to think that -- that we have a track record. I certainly -- Karen Burke, who runs operations was chief of staff for me in Chicago who ran the operations program that built 76 new school buildings and renovated 500, and had the MBE-WBE set-asides. I don't even want to even call them -- We'll just call them set asides. 00182 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole Targets.
I don't want set-asides. I want a commitment, not set-asides. These -- These -- I want -- You say these things are going to happen, and they're going to happen. You're going to make it happen. You and Mr. Nevels are going to make it happen.
They are going to happen. They are going to happen. It's a priority of the Reform Commission.
And tell me how, and tell me what it is that's going to happen so I can come back with a record and say to you: Paul, you didn't do this.
A couple ways that you make it happen. And once again, let me take you through about four or five things. The first way you make it happen is by -- is by adopting a board policy, an anti-discrimination policy which stakes out what your goals are going to be. And the Commission has already taken steps to do that. That puts everyone on notice in this $1.8 billion agency that a priority of ours is 00183 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole equal opportunity. Because I see this as an economic development issue, not as a quota or set-aside issue. I've always defined it in economic development terms. That's the first thing you do. The second thing that you do is, you do aggressive outreach. That means you reach out to providers. You reach out to contractors, to vendors, to professional companies, to professional services, so that you're putting a list together of eligible companies, be they professional companies, accounting companies, auditing companies, be they contractors, general contractors, be they providers, so that you know that they are out there. And if you do outreach, you can communicate to them what's available and what the opportunities are. The third way you do that is by requiring in your contracts that there be MBE-WBE goals. And that means -- And that means if you've done the outreach, if you have the assist agencies, if you've identified other providers and you're notifying the providers of those opportunities, and you're organizing job fairs and 00184 03/24/03 - Committee of the Whole contractor fares and professional service fairs so providers can get together, both majority and minority providers, to form partnerships, then you're going to get the reaction that you need. And then the fourth thing that you need is, you need to be prepared to get into the business of assisting minority companies, legitimate minority companies, because many minority companies are not able to compete for some of the larger contracts. I'm not talking about just being minority -- the minority vendor. I'm talking about being the majority vendor. But, by assisting --