and the plain language of the statute is an approval or permit shall expire if construction
or operation pursuant to the permit or approval has not begun within three years after the date
the permit or approval was granted. So work began, permits were issued. This zoning permit is not
expired. Now granted, Mr. Chairman, we wouldn't be asking, we will absolutely, we have reapplied
for new building permits, all the new, we're going to have to reapply for them. We understand
that. If this board grants this appeal, nothing will stop L&I from doing their normal course of
business, whereby we would have to reapply for those permits that are expired, which we will do
and be happy about it. But the problem is this section is clear that you get three years from
the date of the permit to build, to start construction. Construction was started. All
right. With that, I can ask Rich. Hold on one minute. Mr. Reuter, do you have any questions
of the owner of the property? Oh, sure. Sorry. Just a couple. Ms. Donovan, I think she's muted.
I'm here. Okay. When did you purchase the property?
december 2022 december 7th 2022 okay um and at the time uh other than the the cert that uh mr
demarco had shown um did you or anybody on your behalf uh do any checking to see what permits
were had been issued and what whether permits were open or closed with the
status of any inspections were or anything along those lines
I believe my real estate agent did that.
Okay, but you don't know that for sure.
You don't have any confirmation of that.
Yes, you don't have confirmation, or yes, you do.
Yes, I do.
You do have confirmation.
that my real estate agent checked for those things yes do you have any documentation to that
That my real estate agent checked for those things, yes.
Do you have any...
um i don't have anything right now okay yeah so uh and at the time when you purchased the building
did you did you enter the property at all were you ever inside prior to your purchase
Yes, I was a few times.
And what was the stat?
Was work ongoing?
Was there any workers there?
Were people doing anything?
At the time that I went to the property, no one was physically in there, but all of the
equipment was in there prior to me purchasing the property.
So I did see that there was work that was done.
All of the restaurant equipment was already in the property.
But you have no idea when that was put in?
i'm not sure when that was put in no all right i don't have any other questions thank you
mr mark you have a follow-up or no uh no follow-up for mr you want your architect to come on please
yes rich nevius and while he's doing raising his hand virtually i have up on the screen there's
the building permit that was obtained you'll note mr chairman the date on it is uh february
28, 2020, which would have been within three years of the ZBA decision, and certainly within a year
of the date on the zoning permit. And these are all permits that were obtained very soon after.
This is the plumbing permit. You see the March 12, 2020 date, and then you see the electrical
permit dated 3-3-2020. So all of these permits were obtained within the timeframe of that three
years even if you accept lni's interpretation which we disagree with but um um before the uh
architect goes on i want some if i could ask mr demarco for some clarification who who is the art
who retained this architect the prior owner who no obtained or the current and then if it's the
current owner then i'd like to ask what the relevance of the testimony is i want him to
explaining that the work was done pursuant to the permit and that he is the individual who applied
for the new building permit within the fourth year of um the zoning permit so
he's going to verify that he applied within the fourth year and he had some conversations
with Mr. Hartland about it.
All right, so let's bring him on.
It will be brief, Mr. Chairman.
Sure, sure.
Good morning, Mr. Chairman and members of the board.
Could you state your name, please,
as spelled for the court stenographer?
Richard W. Nevious, R-I-C-H-A-R-D,
W. Nevious, N-E-V-I-U-S.
You swear or affirm, tell the truth,
the whole truth, nothing but the truth?
Yes, I do.
Proceed, counsel.
Mr. Nebius, are you Ms. Donovan's architect?
Did you hear everything that I have said thus far, and is it true and accurate to your recollection?
Yes, it is.
And you are the architect that had conversations with L&I about the expiration, or lack thereof, of the zoning permit?
That's correct.
All right. And you've been inside the property? Have you been inside the property?
Been inside, surveyed it. We were applying for a level one alterations for the second floor.
And did you discover at any point that there was an active unexpired permit at the time you applied?
Yeah, we applied on the 2nd of January. And, you know, after we applied and everything and started having conversations with Mr. Heartland, we discovered that there was an active and open permit for fire suppression, which had an expiration date a month after we applied.
So I believe it was late February. I believe that there it is.
Can you see my screen? Can you see the fire suppression permit on your screen?
Yes. All right. And are those dates consistent with the the date, the dates that you just mentioned with regard to the fire suppression permit?
Yes. Did you observe new fire suppression systems installed at the property when you were inside?
Yes, it was fully sprinklered, yes.
And in your opinion, was that recent work pursuant to the fire suppression permit that you investigated?
And in your opinion, was that recent work pursuant to the fire suppression permit that you and
Yeah, yes. I mean, from a common sense standpoint, it looks pretty new and consistent with the permits. Yes.
And you applied on behalf of Ms. Donovan for a commercial building permit, you said, in January 2nd of 2023?
That's correct. Yes.
And is that, is this the building permit? Can you see it on your screen? Is this the application screenshot that you sent to me?
That's all I have for Mr. Nevius, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.
I just have a couple of questions.
Good morning, zone court of adjustment. How may I help you?
Mr. Hand, your mic's on.
sorry uh mr nevius um when you
indicated that uh you saw the open fire suppression permit uh and mr demarca if you don't
mind could you pull that back up oh sure you want this fire yeah the fire suppression permit sure
i mean i could probably find mine but since you hit it right there you have it thank you so
this is a mr nebius this is the uh the information that you were able to retrieve off of
i guess either eclipse or hansen or um the atlas system that's correct yes the uh i believe it was
eclipse okay and do you notice where it indicates their completed date august 22nd 2022
i i i see that yes and uh you know actually and didn't you just test it do you you see it or you
don't yes i do i see okay uh and you indicated yourself just now that the work was apparently
it was new it was completed it was done right it looked like it was a fresh install yes okay so
in other words on the face of this information that you're you're you're referring to the fire
suppression permit the work was completed august 22nd 2022 and that now is it your experience that
completion date is that just put in by the contractor themselves or is that as a result
of an L&I inspection well well it could be either one hold on as far as the inspections
go ahead go ahead I mean you know I think this is like a little uh
you know discrepancy you know as Christopher Hartland said with the uh you know the internal
side of your eclipse um and what's complete and the expiration date so you know uh to the best of
your knowledge as far as inspections it could have been inspected i'm not sure if there's a
you know record of that you know from uh you know building inspectors or or so forth but uh yeah
that's what it says completion and expiration right and from the time that you were in the
property when you said i guess at the time you were applying for the more recent uh permit
application uh building permit application have you seen any additional work done on the fire
suppression system since then no there wasn't any work because we were you know as a new owner we're
applying for the new uh building permits it was just you know paint and carpet in there trim you
You know, flooring, doors, that sort of thing.
It was, you know, it looked like everything was, you know, close to being complete, but I'm not sure about the inspection aspect of it.
So, in your experience, when work is ongoing with respect to fire systems, for instance, and a new owner takes over, does a new permit have to be applied for?
Does there have to be a new agreement between the owner and the contractor?
And did any of that take place here when your client took the property?
well i mean if there's a system already installed i think that's okay so you know you probably just
need to get it certified periodically just like a uh a manual fire fire alarm system or something
i have no further questions no nothing nothing no nothing for your case mr demarco uh well he's as
long as he's calling mr heartland and i may be able to get a stipulation but i am completed as
far as and with argument of course as far as my witnesses yes completely leonard do you want to
call your witness uh sure i i just want to do a quick uh like an opening as as mr demarco just
uh sure i i just want to do a quick uh like an opening as mr demarco i just did um and i want
to share my screen if i don't crash everything uh there we go
now can you see that we can okay and this is the same section that mr demarco was showing
I'm pretty sure if he pulled it offline, this is what you would be seeing.
So the specific language in question we agree is 14.303 sub 10 sub A.
The problem with Mr. DeMarco's interpretation is that it does not give any weight to half of the entire provision.
it says except as specifically stated in any other section of this zoning code an approval
or permit granted under this zoning code including approvals by the historical commission pursuant to
14 1005 shall expire if construction or operation pursuant to the permit or approval has not begun
within three years after the date the permit or approval was granted so the problem with mr
de marco's interpretation is that all the reference to the time taking the clock ticking
three years after the approval uh becomes meaningless you cannot begin work uh unless
the perm you cannot do the work any construction work you can't even get the building permit to do
the work unless the zoning permit has been issued so so it has to be so if but if you need an
approval so again approval is referencing this board if a permit that has to be approved means
a board approved by i mean a permit approved by the board so if it's always based upon the issuance
of the permit then the clock never starts ticking against the approval but that's not what this says
so if it requires board approval the clock starts ticking within three the clock starts ticking
from the date of the approval otherwise this provision is meaningless there is no other way
to give any uh weight to the word an approval or permit other than the understanding that if it's
a permit that needed to be approved it come the date the clock starts ticking from the date of
that approval otherwise it's always going to be from the date the permit is issued which again
And you're then complete, you're basically, and if further, if Mr. DeMarco's, if you follow Mr. DeMarco's interpretation, zoning permits will never expire, even if you never, ever, ever do the work, as long as you got a permit, which you may or may not have done any work under at all.
and that can't possibly be what this means you have to have a permit the work has to be completed
under the permit and if that underlying permit expires then the zoning permit itself also has
to expire if you've gone beyond the three years whether it's the date of the issuance of the
permit or the date of the board approval at all there isn't any other way this makes any sense
this entire provision is completely undermined by the way that Mr. DeMarco is trying to read it
Mr. DeMarco's reading is that
I get a board approval
I wait you know the board
approval we all agree is good for three years
so I wait till like
two days before the three year
expiration and I go and get a
building permit and then I sit and then
once I get that building permit I never have to do
anything 20 years from now Mr. DeMarco
will say hey I got a building permit
within three years
so it's good the zoning permit never
expires that's just
not how this works. There wouldn't even need
to be a provision for lapse of permits and approvals. A permit would never lapse
under that reading. So the zoning permit, that is,
would never lapse under that reading, and that can't possibly be the intention of the city council.
So I am going to present Mr. Hartland now,
if I could have him promoted or at least unmuted.
Okay. However you normally do it.
um can they raise their hands
they have been allowed to speak
sir could you state your name and spell it please for the court stenographer
yes my name is christopher hartland h-a-r-t-l-a-n-d
i'm a building plans examiner employed by the city of philadelphia department of licenses and inspections
okay do you swear or affirm to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth
i do proceed counsel sure uh mr hartland could you just tell the uh the board
Sure. Mr. Hartland, could you just tell the board what your title is?
Yes. My title is Building Plans Examination Engineer 1.
And I'm sorry, I hate to make you do this, but it seems like there's some background noise behind you, people talking.
I apologize. I'm here in the L&I office of the Municipal Services Building.
okay um yeah maybe if they're able just let them know that you're you're in the middle of a hearing
but um so how long have you been doing the the work of the plans examiner working with l and i
for the last five and a half years okay and in the course and scope of that that work have you
are you did you become familiar with the property 24 30 an application regarding the property at
2431 North 26th Street?
Yes, I received a new commercial building permit application in January of this year.
It was CP 2023-0000001.
I believe the architect did describe that application previously where they came in believing they were filing for level one interior alterations only to the second floor.
uh excuse me chair that pardon me chair this is the court reporter i understand i'm having
difficulty hearing the witness okay um leonard could you try to see if you could do something
with that background noise yeah uh christopher is there any way you can maybe go to a different