Committee Hearing, December 6, 2007

COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Thursday, December 6, 2007 12:00 p.m. - - PRESENT: COUNCIL PRESIDENT ANNA C. VERNA COUNCILWOMAN JANNIE BLACKWELL COUNCILWOMAN CAROL ANN CAMPBELL COUNCILMAN DARRELL L. CLARKE COUNCILMAN FRANK DiCICCO COUNCILMAN W. WILSON GOODE, JR. COUNCILMAN WILLIAM GREENLEE COUNCILMAN JACK KELLY COUNCILMAN JAMES F. KENNEY COUNCILWOMAN JOAN L. KRAJEWSKI COUNCILWOMAN DONNA REED MILLER COUNCILMAN BRIAN J. O'NEILL COUNCILMAN JUAN RAMOS COUNCILWOMAN BLONDELL REYNOLDS BROWN COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO COUNCILMAN DANIEL SAVAGE COUNCILWOMAN MARIAN B. TASCO BILLS 070994, 070605, 070606, 070607, 070608, 070609, 070610, 070611, 070612, 070613, 070614, 070615, 070616, 070722, 070723, 070724, 070725, 070726, 070727, 070728, 070729, 070730, 070732, 070733, 070734, 070735, 070736, 071013, 071014, 071015, 071016, 071017, 071018, 071019, 071020, 071021, 071022, 071023, 071024, 071025, 071026, 071027, 071028, 071029 and 071030 V A R A L L O Incorporated Litigation Support Services Eleven Penn Center 1835 Market Street, Suite 600 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 215.561.2220 215.567.2670 2

Can I have everyone's attention, please. This is a continued public hearing of the Committee of the Whole regarding Bill No. 070994. I would ask Mr. McPherson to please read the title of the bill. MR. McPHERSON: An ordinance 10 authorizing the Director of Finance, Commissioner of Public Property and other officials of the City to execute either directly or through the Philadelphia Authority for Industrial Development various agreements, instruments of conveyance and other transactional documents by and among the City, the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania and the Pennsylvania Convention Center Authority.

May I ask the City Solicitor to approach the witness table, please. Mr. Solicitor, it is my understanding that you have spent a great deal of time and patience, I'm sure. 3 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC.

It's been an interesting six days, Madam Chair.

I am absolutely certain of it. Would you explain what we're doing now that we weren't doing at our last hearing.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm Romulo L. Diaz, Jr., City Solicitor. You'll recall that we had a previous set of amendments related to indemnification. The second set of amendments that we had proposed, "we" being the team, including the City, the Authority and the Commonwealth, related to the Economic Opportunity Plan and the covenants associated with that for both the Convention Center agreement and the operating agreement. With respect to the Economic Opportunity Plan, we have been working very diligently throughout the night, in fact, last night to prepare the document 4 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. before you. In concept, it is essentially the same as what has been previously testified to by the various witnesses with, I think, two generally important respects. The first is that we have specifically addressed the concerns of Councilman Goode and others with respect to minority participation and not only created an aspirational goal with respect to minority workforce utilization and contracting, but we have also created minority sub-goals. Specifically in connection with the Economic Opportunity Plan, which is dated December 6th, if you turn to 3, you will see in the Section II, Construction Opportunities, you'll see in the first paragraph under that section on the bottom of that we have created a workforce utilization aspirational goal of 40 percent. That has within it an aspirational goal of percent workforce 24 utilization of African-Americans, ten 25 percent with respect to 5 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. Hispanic-Americans and five percent with respect to Asian-Americans and ten percent with respect to women.

Excuse me just a moment. Does everybody have a copy of the new amendments? Sharon, were they distributed?

We have additional copies.

If you don't mind waiting just a moment, please, until they're distributed.

Point of order.

The Chair recognizes Councilman Goode.

Thank you, Madam President. There is a typo on the first page of the amendment that I pointed out. Section C, in the last sentence, it says "contacts." It should say "contracts." So I want to make sure that's changed in the final version. 6 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC.

That's correct. That same typo occurs on of the amendment in Paragraph F. I think we were a little bleary-eyed this morning, Councilman, when we were trying to do the final review, but I see that you have fresh eyes. Thank you. Shall I proceed, Madam Chair?

Since no one had a copy when you were testifying, would you mind reiterating your statement, please --

Absolutely.

-- on .

On you will see II, Construction Opportunities; Aspirational Participation Goals. And there are two sets of aspirational goals. There is one for workforce utilization, and that is set for minority workers at 40 percent, with a percent 24 aspirational goal for African-American 25 workers, ten percent with respect to 7 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. Hispanic-Americans and five percent with respect to Asian-Americans. Those are new, and the goal is higher than was seen before. There is also a change with respect to workforce utilization of women workers in that paragraph, which is now shown as ten percent. In the next paragraph, which continues onto , we have contract dollar aspirational goals, and with respect to the contract dollars, the minority participation goal is 35 percent and for women it is percent. There 15 are contracting dollar sub-goals with respect to African-Americans, which is 20 percent -- you'll see a correction to that effect hopefully in your copy -- ten percent for Hispanic-Americans and five percent for Asian-Americans, all of that adding up to 35 percent. And, again, for women, contract dollar participation goal aspirationally is 15 percent. That is the major change to reflect the concerns that were expressed 8 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. at, I believe it was, Tuesday was the last time we discussed this issue. The second major area of change but has not changed the concept is really to walk through all of the operational steps to review the kinds of concerns that were raised with regard to compliance. We believe that we have a strong and appropriate role for the oversight committee, which includes a representative of City Council. All the reporting to be done in that committee is to include reports to City Council. So you will be in the loop as the implementation of the construction activities are underway. But we tried to be careful and respectful of the Authority's responsibility as the owner and construction manager relative to some of the enforcement activities. Those responsibilities remain with the Authority. However, at every step along the way, in identifying potential issues 9 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. and trying to address them through conciliation and mediation and trying to develop investigation tools and attempting to develop the punitive actions, if any are warranted, all of those compliance steps will incorporate an opportunity for consultation with the oversight committee, and, again, City Council will be a member of that and City Council will receive any reports that are developed for the oversight committee or by the oversight committee. I think we have addressed the major concerns as I heard them in our previous discussions. We have worked with one member in connection with additional amendments, but I will stop there in connection with my testimony and I'd be happy to answer any questions, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Councilman DiCicco, your light is on. Did you want to be recognized? 10 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Yes. Thank you, Madam President, and good afternoon. Good afternoon, Mr. Diaz.

Good afternoon, Councilman. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: , when we talk about the aspirational participation goals, I do have a problem with the word "aspirational." I certainly don't claim to be an expert on the English language, but aspirational seems to me to be hopes and dreams and goals, and I think it's been this Council's hope and dream and goals for a number of years going back to when I first came here when we did the stadium deal that we would be able to get a much greater participation by minorities and women in the field of labor and the workforce in the City of Philadelphia when it comes to union jobs. Forty percent, what I'm not clear on, is that hours? 11 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC.

That is correct. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: The number of hours?

That is correct. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: So, hypothetically, if there are 500 people who are employed in the construction phase of the expansion, they're construction employees, for lack of a better term, and let's say 50 of those were minorities. You can get to the 40 percent by working pretty much to death those 40 people or 50 people, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the number of people would get to 40 percent of the workforce. There would not be 40 percent of the workforce that would be minority employees. It just means that 40 percent of the hours would be attributed to those numbers that are actually on the job site. Is that --

Councilman, I'm going to ask my colleagues on this team that has included the City, the Authority 12 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. and the Commonwealth, but the Authority to address those issues.

Albert Mezzaroba, President and CEO of the Pennsylvania Convention Center Authority. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: I don't think you're on.

Am I on? Councilman, it's going to be a combination, because the reverse of that would also be true, which is you can hire 40 or 50 or 100 people for a day, get to your number and then the next day they're not there. It will be an even balance. We have to do it by hour as well because with the hours worked, it is really a true determination. We don't feel that any contractors, it's in their best interest to work people to death, because you don't get the productivity out of them. But it will be a combination. I don't believe we'd allow 40 people to work enough hours to make up in your 13 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. scenario the percentages, nor would we allow them to hire people for one day to get to their percentage and then the next day those people disappear. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: I appreciate your answer, and I guess it's hard for me to either articulate or get to the answer, because I think the devil, as they say, is in the details. It seems to me that although this is a good-faith effort and I appreciate the City Solicitor and my colleagues, Councilman Goode and Blondell Reynolds Brown, in trying to get a higher percentage, I think for me it's just a simple question. Will there be more minority folks working on this project than has been traditionally the case on other public works projects? And I need to know how we get that, since -- I could be wrong, and maybe when Mr. Gillespie gets up to testify, I'd like to know the number of people who are in the minority category who are members of the Building Trades, 14 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. has that number increased and are they journeymen or are they apprentices. I mean, I think everybody knows where I'm going with this. That number never seems to change. We kind of play with these percentages, but the number of people of color never seems to be any greater today than what it was ten, 15, years ago. And that, I think, for me 11 is one of the big issues and I know it's 12 a big issue for a number of other folks 13 as well. 14

Councilman, I 15 guess you've kind of summed it up pretty 16 well. Where we're at is, we will employ 17 as many City residents, as many minority 18 and women in the Trades as we can and 19 that are available at the time of 20 construction. We further have an apprenticeship program in which we intend on getting 50 percent of all the apprenticeship hours and they will come from feeding organizations, which we hope to increase minority and women 15 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. representation into the Trades through new apprentices. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: What happens if the union contractors are not able to hire the number of people to reach these numbers? Would we then look for non-union contractors?

Not as it's presently laid out. We're in the process of doing a PLA. This will be a union job, and by the time we know whether the contractor can meet those utilization numbers, they'd already have been awarded the contract. And then there's a series of good-faith efforts that the contractor would have to go through to prove that they've done everything they can to meet the numbers of -- I think it's a total of 40 percent.

And, Councilman, the best good-faith efforts are reflected beginning on , Paragraph B. In other words, the goal is as stated by me earlier, but if you fall short of that 16 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. goal, you must demonstrate that you fell short despite your best and good-faith efforts, and the examples that are to demonstrate that began on , continue onto , and there may be additional documentation that can be required in the event you failed to demonstrate best and good-faith efforts. Then there are enforcement mechanisms in here. That's one of the reasons why there is a covenant as well in both of the agreements. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: And I know there's a number of my colleagues that have questions. Let's assume that for whatever reason we prove that there's not been a good-faith effort and they come up short. Is this enforceable under the law? Can we really do something about this? I'm not an attorney. And what is it we can do?

Councilman, at the workforce utilization stage, we would have a contract. Within that contract 17 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. would be the number as to what the minority participation would be, not only in the contracting portion but also on workforce utilization. At that point, they'd have to create -- cross a higher threshold to prove good faith, and if they don't, the contractor would be held liable, and it would be a breach of contract at that point, no different than if you were supposed to put a wall and they didn't. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: I will yield at this time. I'm probably going to come back later on, but thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Madam President.

You're welcome. At this time, the Chair recognizes Councilman Goode.

Thank you, Madam President. When I originally pushed my button, I just wanted to simply thank all 18 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. of the people who put so much hard work into this. I'm glad we got to where I think we needed to be, and it's been a pleasure doing business with you. Lastly, let me just say to clarify the issues raised by Councilman DiCicco, I believe they will continue to be raised. At the end of the day, I'm more comfortable using workforce hours rather than workers for the reason that Mr. Mezzaroba clearly explained, and it works in reverse as well. If we said we want 50 percent of the workers to be minority, that doesn't guarantee they're going to get 50 percent of the workforce hours. And at the end of the day, the way this is structured in terms of contracts and jobs, it's structured to -- when you say "contracts," it means contract dollars. When you say "jobs," it means workforce hours to make sure that basically the dollars and the workforce hours go where they're supposed to go. 19 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. And so this is somewhat of a tried and true method in terms of looking at both options and which is a better way to go. So I'm very pleased we got to some fairly aggressive aspirational goals, and as you said, in the end, the devil is not only in the details, the devil is also in the implementation. And so I think we're doing some other things here through other amendments, some offered by Councilwoman Miller, that makes sure the reporting requirements are put in there, that we'll be able to track this continually, amendments suggested by Councilwoman Brown in terms of reporting requirements. I think it will help get us there as well in terms of constantly knowing what's going on in terms of reaching these goals and having the oversight committee in place and having enforcement mechanisms in place that's in the oversight committee. So, once again, I want to thank 20 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. the people who worked hard to get us to more aggressive aspirational goals, and I think it's a much better place that we're at now than we were last Friday. So thank you.

Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Brown.

Thank you, Madam President. Let me too just underscore Councilman Goode's acknowledgment of listening and hearing our concerns around MBE/WBE/DBE participation. For the record, we've had the side bar, but I do want to put on the record why procedurally it's not possible for the oversight committee to have the far-reaching ability to impose penalties, fines, et cetera, for contractors who do not meet the ideals of this EOP plan.

I believe that -- I should be clear. There is a far-reaching 21 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. role for the oversight committee, but the contracting parties are, on the one hand, the Authority and, on the other hand, the people who are actually going to do the construction work.

Repeat that, please.

On the one hand it's going to be the Authority as the owner and on the other hand it's going to be the actual contractor doing the construction work. And so what we tried to avoid is putting a non-contracting party in the middle. And so because you have legal rights and remedies that you can enforce against if you are a contracting party, the Authority is the one that has to do that job. But every time the Authority is doing its job, it's going to be doing it in direct consultation at every step of the compliance process in consultation with the oversight committee. So we have tried to build in a 22 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. very robust opportunity for the oversight committee not just to be involved, but to be directly involved in every important step that is taken at a regular periodic interval so that we proactively avoid a situation where the effort is already completed on a contract and then you find out these people didn't meet their goals. So we haven't put in exactly what the period for review is, but the intention is at least on a monthly basis and perhaps even more regularly, depending upon the nature of the work and the issues that come up, that the oversight committee is going to be directly consulted and involved in deciding is this a problem. Certainly the oversight committee can raise a concern in terms of an allegation of a problem. It will be consulted as well in connection with is this an opportunity for conciliation/mediation to try to address it. Maybe there's a problem. 23 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. We talked earlier today in our group about perhaps 80 percent of the work is done. Is that a time now to release 80 percent of the funds associated so that subcontractors could get paid. All of those are appropriate kinds of things you might consider at a conciliation/mediation step. The next step is investigation, and if it turns out that a formal investigation is warranted, the oversight committee is going to be involved in that. And if it turns out that after a formal investigation it appears that something really is wrong and some kind of enforcement is called for, the oversight committee is going to be directly involved in that process as well, not as the building owner, but as a party to be consulted and have an opportunity to advise the building owner in connection with what those enforcement penalties might be. So we think we've built in a 24 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. very far-reaching and appropriate role for the oversight committee.

Thank you for your testimony. Thank you, Madam President.

You're welcome. Councilwoman Miller's light is on.

Yes. Thank you, Madam President. Madam President, we looked over the EOP plan that we had prior to today and met with the Authority and the Law Department and agreed on a series of amendments that we believe strengthens the monitoring and the reporting requirements, and we did pass those amendments out and everyone should have a copy of those amendments. And we'd actually like to -- we've already discussed them with pretty much everybody at the table and we circulated them to all Councilmembers, and we would like 25 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. these to be included with the vote today. It basically deals with the monitoring, with certified payrolls, with prompt payment and the documentation of minority and female participation and reporting requirements and also the fact that these records are all public.

Point of information.

I'm sorry. I can't hear you.

I do have a question for the sponsor of the amendment, Councilwoman Donna Miller.

Yes.

Thank you, Council Lady. This indeed does strengthen a lot of the discussion around the oversight committee a couple of days ago. What I do not see here -- and maybe it's covered in what our City Solicitor has indicated around fines and penalties -- for those who don't honor, for example, 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. submitting documents by the 15th day of the month, then what happens?

Right. Our amendment does not deal with that, and I'm not sure either whether it's in the new document that was submitted, but penalties has to be a part of anything. I think there was something around penalties -- oh, there is a whole section 11 on non-compliance on in the new document that we received this morning.

So, Mr. City Solicitor, this amendment would capture the description you provided about the role of the oversight committee. Where there is non-compliance with this amendment, then the oversight committee's concerns or recommendations around this type of issue, those procedures you just described will kick, correct?

My testimony, Councilwoman, was as to the non-compliance provision, which is found 27 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. on of the EOP that we talked about earlier, VII. What Councilwoman Miller has circulated would further enhance that effort and the team. And I keep referring to it as a team because we've got three parties to this deal, the City, the Commonwealth and the Authority. We have had the opportunity, and we appreciate it, to work directly with Councilwoman Miller on this, and we believe that these are not only workable, but they are appropriate and helpful.

Let me just say one sentence. This is an early warning signal that there are problems.

Would you say, City Solicitor, that this is an improvement from what we went through with the building of the stadiums around the honoring of and the assurance that MBEs and WBEs were being involved and paid all the way through the completion of the project?

Well, you may recall 28 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. that I wasn't here then in the City. I had the misfortune to only move here five and a half years ago. I should have moved here sooner. But everything that I have heard, Councilwoman, tells me that what we have prepared here in direct response to the concerns expressed by Councilmembers, further assisted by the amendments circulated by Councilwoman Miller, makes this really precedent setting and raises the bar, and, quite frankly, I believe that you should feel -- we should all feel proud about the kind of goals that are being set and the enforcement mechanisms created, I think very much along the lines of what I heard Councilman Goode express a few minutes ago.

Thank you, Mr. Solicitor. Thank you, Madam President.

You're welcome. 29 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. Councilwoman Miller.

Most of these were put together as a result of phone calls that we receive as Councilmembers from contractors over the course and life of some of these contracts. So I guess it's an attempt to make things run smoother and address some of the concerns that we've heard year after year after year, and it's the best effort. I hate to even use those words, but that's what it is, because I think good faith and all those things are very vague, hard to measure, but if you break it out and just put it in black and white and on paper, then hopefully it's a good start. Thank you.

You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilman Clarke.

Thank you, Madam President. I'll be real brief, 30 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. because I know we actually do have City Council today.

Yes, we do.

I almost forgot. First, Madam President, I would just like to thank everyone involved in this process. Where we came from from the first day of the hearing to where we are today is, frankly speaking, extremely significant. I want to thank all the members of Council who worked on this particular issue in a very diligent way. But there's a certain reality here, and given what we've been successful in achieving in terms of goals over the last several months with projects that have come before this Council in particular and ones that haven't quite come before this Council, there are probably going to be a significant number of large-scale developments over the next several years happening throughout the City of 31 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. Philadelphia, and actually when Councilwoman Reynolds Brown asked the question about the stadiums, having participated in that oversight committee, one thing that came about is that we actually had better success in getting contracts for African-Americans and all other minorities related to the goals, but the underlying problem was that we didn't have this level of success, not even close to the level of success of meeting the goals for employees, and at the end of the day, it was simply because, one, that was a union job; two, there are just not enough minorities in the unions in the City of Philadelphia to meet those particular goals. My concern is -- and we in this Council and all of the pertinent parties need to probably the first of the year aggressively try to figure out some strategy, because if we're talking about 50 percent at the Cira and Fox Chase doing 30, 35 percent, 40, 50 percent here 32 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. and who knows what's going to happen with the casinos, Councilman DiCicco, if in fact they, my good friend, if in fact they get built, they place some significant goals. Because Councilman DiCicco always has something up his sleeves, that's why I have to say in the speculative terms. There is going to be a requirement for a whole lot of minority workers, and in all honesty, I don't see where they're at in the City of Philadelphia. So if we want to make this work, we're going to have to come up with something very, very, very, very significant in terms of out-of-the-box thinking, because the reality is although there is a commitment for 50 percent of the apprentices, that's not going to get it done. And I say that to everybody involved, the Trades, government, everybody. We really better think about a way of getting people in the workforce in an expedited way if we're going to 33 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. meet these goals that we've been setting in this Council throughout the City of Philadelphia in the next couple of years. So I just want to say I thank everybody, but I'm going to ask that everybody be as diligent after we pass this legislation, because I will be voting for it, in coming up with the next phase, which will be figuring out a way that this will work and all of the other large-scale projects will work in the City of Philadelphia as it relates to goals for diversity on all these various projects. So I just want to thank Madam President for that, but it's going to take a lot of work to make this happen, some very creative thinking. So thank you.

Thank you. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Madam President. 34 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC.

Are there any other questions from members of the Committee for the City Solicitor? (No response.)

Thank you.

Thank you.

Do we have anyone else to testify on this bill? It's my understanding that a couple of the Councilmembers did want Mr. Gillespie to come in. We have someone at the table. Did you want to testify also?

Yes, ma'am. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Point of order.

Yes. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Was not the Chairman of the Redevelopment Authority also requested to be here today? That was my understanding. I didn't make the request. Did anyone --

Yes. 35 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC.

May I approach?

Please.

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Katherine Zampitella. I'm also known as Lady Tri-axle Trucking. I am the first female dump truck driver in the Philadelphia Building and Construction Trades as a dump truck driver. I'm certified WBE for the State of Pennsylvania, the City of Philadelphia. I have been discriminated against, harassed on 99.9 percent of these major projects going on, and I'm from the City of Philadelphia all my life, the section of Port Richmond. And I've been seeing a lot of tri-axle dump trucks that are Philadelphia-based businesses getting deprived of the Convention Center. AM/PM Dump Truck Tri-axle Service and myself had tried numerous 36 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. times to get a little bit of work out of Geppert Brothers at the Convention Center and they just -- they all discriminate, Children's Hospital, and I've got proof. It needs to stop. I think that the City needs to crack down on the contractors to make sure that they are not discriminating against little WBEs like myself. I think the contract should be broken down into smaller pieces so the little people can have a little bit of it instead of all of the Jersey contractors coming over, getting all this big work and bringing their small people in. The ratio is too low. They're not working enough Philadelphia-based businesses. And I can only speak on behalf of the dump trucks that are doing the first phase of all the major jobs in the City here. There's Philadelphia-based businesses that aren't getting any of this work, because you got all the contractors from New Jersey, as I said, bringing all those dump trucks 37 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. over, while you got guys out at Mt. Airy, Germantown, 22nd and Huntingdon, you know. Mr. Pullins goes out of business, God bless him. Why? Discrimination.

Thank you. The Chair --

Thank you, ma'am.

Just a moment, please. Any questions of this witness?

Yes.

The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Tasco.

You underscore the sentiment of the members of this Council, and we've always tried to get contracts broken down so that smaller businesses can certainly participate in the business of the City, and it's been difficult, but the effort --

Because a lot 38 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. of them aren't abiding by the contracts when they get them.

We understand. Thank you.

The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Brown.

Yes, Madam President. I need to underscore the remarks of Councilwoman Tasco. Thank you for putting a face on this issue here today. It's one thing to read it in text and it's another thing to hear it.

The ratio is too low. The Philadelphia certified businesses should get the work before the outsiders come in.

How long have you been certified?

Three years I've had my own tri-axle, but I'm one of the first female dump truck drivers in the Philadelphia Building Trades, trained under Pennsylvania Department of 39 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. Transportation, under James D. Morrissey Contractors. I have a certificate in heavy highway training and building construction.

Good for you.

God bless Cindy Stovall. She was the first black female in the Operating Engineers, and when she died two years ago on May 24th, she said to me, Kathy, just keep fighting, girl. Twenty-six years that woman had in and she died of ovarian cancer. God bless her. Thank you very much.

Thank you for your testimony.

You're welcome. Thank you. Mr. Gillespie.

Patrick Gillespie, Business Manager of the Philadelphia Building Trades Council.

All 40 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. right. Councilwoman Tasco.

Yes. Mr. Gillespie, are the Building Trades in support of this new Economic Plan that's set forth by the Council?

I haven't seen it, but the Building Trades has been involved in every initiative that we provide diversity in the construction industry.

Through the years every time we've put forth a City project, we have an Equal Opportunity Plan or we require minority participation, but at the end of the day, we don't see any improvement in the number of women and minorities in the construction trades. We have to start all over again with a plan like this to be inclusive. We get the apprenticeship and the apprentices on the jobs. They work that job, but they never become 41 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. journeymen. Could you kind of explain why that happens?

Well, number one, that doesn't happen. That simply doesn't happen. And the picture being drawn here by a number of people, you and Councilman Clarke and other people, that we haven't met goals or that the Building Trades unions were not at the forefront of meeting goals or that the complexion of the Building Trades is all white or something, I mean, it's just simply incorrect. I don't have any specific numbers per union, but I do know that the initiatives that we've embarked on ourselves, our Diversified Apprenticeship program, which was our idea, the Housing Authority program that the painters and the carpenters embark in and the plumbers embark in, they have had fabulous results. We have an awful lot of people who are now members of our unions in the Trades because of those. 42 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. When we first built the Convention Center, as far back as that, the unions sided with the Affirmative Action program, which at the time came under serious scrutiny by the federal court because of Judge Bechtel's ruling that was sustained by the Supreme Court that forbad the kind of set-aside program. So we crafted a strategy through Ahmeenah Young, and we helped and defended that strategy and made sure that it was lived up to on the job. I mean, that's what the unions do. Now, I know we're an easy target, but, you know, people should, before they make statements like that publicly and on the record, they should figure out whether or not they're true.

Well -- COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Point of order, Madam President.

The Chair recognizes Councilman DiCicco for a point of order. 43 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you, Madam President. Mr. Gillespie, you're saying that we're targeting the unions. You also said that you don't have specifics, but I need to ask you some specific questions. Hopefully you could answer that. How many unions does your Council represent, Building Trades?

In the five-county area, 42 local unions. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Do you know the number of people that make up that membership, approximately?

I do not. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Would you happen to know the number of minorities who are represented by the Building Trades in the five-county region?

Zero. We don't represent anyone. The unions do. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: The unions. Do you know how many minorities 44 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. are represented by the unions that are members of the Council?

No. I don't have any of that data. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: And I suspect you wouldn't have the number of females, women, that are participants?

I don't have any of that. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Didn't you know that this hearing was pretty much based on the minority participation and female participation, that that's why this bill did not move for the last two hearings? Didn't you think that maybe it would be important to --

Councilman, I was asked -- COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Let me finish my question.

I was asked -- well, I know what your question is. Go ahead. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: I'm not 45 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. finished. Didn't you think it was important for you to bring some statistics to address those concerns that have been raised at the last two meetings that are relevant to what we're talking about today and be able to address the issue on minority and female participation within the Trades?

Councilman, I was asked -- I didn't know the status of this bill. I was asked to stay away from here. That was the strategy. I was asked yesterday by Stephanie Naidoff that said -- called my secretary and said that Councilman Goode would like me to be here today to testify on behalf of this bill. I'm here to tell you that I think the bill will work. I think the project will work. I don't know who has the data. I don't know whether that even exists, the data that you're asking for. I don't know who compiles that stuff. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Well -- 46 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC.

I don't know. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Who would have that? You don't know how many members --

I don't know. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: You don't know how many members are represented in the five-county region?

No. 11 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: So how can then we stand here today and approve a document that's going to get us to a 40 percent participation when we don't even know what the number of people are who may be in that pool or not in that pool?

Well, you can look at our track record. You can look at what we've done before. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: With no 21 disrespect, it's the track record that brings us to this position that we're in today.

Then apparently your track record and the real track 47 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. record -- your assessment of our track record is incorrect. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Then show me the proof.

What empirical data did you look at when you drew your conclusions that we didn't live up to our record, didn't live up to what we said we would do? COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: I think the facts, the numbers would prove that I'm right.

Well, I don't know who has those facts, but I do know that if a certain amount of hours are set aside for a construction project for minority participation, I do know that we see to it that that is done. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: You know, you said the strategy was for you to stay away. I don't know whose strategy that was. You're certainly welcome, as far as I'm concerned. I think the strategy was to prohibit 500 people from coming in and 48 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. disrupting this Chambers as they've done -- they're not here today. That was the strategy, Mr. Gillespie, that they don't come in and disrupt these proceedings as they've done in the past and harass members of this Council who are asking questions that are important to the City of Philadelphia and important to the people who live and work here. That was the strategy.

I'm sorry that you're so sensitive, Councilman.

Not unlike what took place at the Commerce Department's hearing in the Convention Center a few weeks ago, where 300 people shouted down at the conversation and the questions that were being raised by myself and Senator Fumo. That was the strategies, to keep those folks out of here.

Well, Councilman, I was at that hearing and just for the record, from my view, there 49 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. weren't 300 people there. And from, again, from my record, I saw both you and Senator Fumo giving as good as they got. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: We shouldn't have to engage in that, Mr. Gillespie.

But you initiated it, Councilman, you and Senator Fumo. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.

That's what I saw. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Yeah, we always initiate these things. We're the guys that get the work done to create the jobs for the Building Trades and we're initiating it.

And we appreciate that. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Yeah, I know. Some appreciation we've gotten around here for the last 12 years. Some appreciation. 50 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. There aren't any numbers, so I don't know how we can even entertain these percentages if we don't even know if there are enough people that are in the Trades that can fill this goal, or it's the aspirations again, the hopes and dreams.

Let me just say, Councilman, that our track record is, where we agree to provide people of color and women on projects at a certain level, we do our level best to do that, and we have done that. You look at the Post Office job down on Lindbergh Boulevard. That was a job where we had to go and enforce the procedures and had to get pretty rough with a couple of contractors, simply because they didn't want to hire additional people. That's what this comes down to. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Well, without statistics, again, I don't know how we can sit here today and make these decisions without having statistics, if 51 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. we can ever get to those goals that we all would aspire to get to. I have no further questions, Madam President.

Madam President, I think I was asking questions. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: I'm sorry. Thank you for allowing me --

You just said that the contractors have to hire additional people. If the workforce of the trade unions were diverse, would you have to hire additional people to fulfill the requirements on the project?

Let me explain the construction process as I know it. If you have a goal of 50 percent minority, a goal of 50 percent women, Asian and African-American on a project, and your first contractor shows up, who is your concrete placement contractor, and he shows up with six people and only one of them is in that minority category, 52 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. then right at that moment you've got to insist that they correct that, that they hire additional people. Because unfortunately for us, as our people go to work, they work themselves out of a job. So you don't want to -- so that's where strict monitoring and adherence. And what we did at the Convention Center the first time was, we were on top of that pretty quickly.

Do they get --

And that's why we were able to achieve the goals that we said we could achieve.

But the contractor gets the employees from the union shop, right?

The contractor gets their employees from the union or from elsewhere and they become union.

Mostly from the unions in Philadelphia, right?

Right. 53 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC.

And so if the concrete people were diverse and you knew you had to have so many minorities on the job, wouldn't you send them out from the union hall?

Councilwoman --

If the six people were from the union hall --

Just so you understand, when this contractor started this job, those six people were all unemployed. They were not working. So now they're working. So what you have to do, they want to start with six and then maybe move to 12. Don't start with -- start with 12, but make sure your racial component, make sure your minority commitment is lived up to from the very beginning. That's when it then becomes -- it is not a problem to do.

But what if the job only requires six people? How do you deal with the diversity with the six people? 54 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC.

Well, we insist that the job requires more than six probably. We'll probably try to get more people hired, because that's what we try to do.

Well, if I'm doing a job for you and I only need six people to lay concrete, why would I hire 12? Why couldn't the six people be diverse?

Well, then he has to have the six to -- he has to know that he has to get there. He has to know he has to do that, or she.

Well, if you get them out from the union hall, shouldn't that workforce of six people be diverse?

The way the union hall is structured, it's usually on who has been out of work the longest. They get out first.

You talked about empirical data for us to prove that 55 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. the sites lack diversity. Well, just like you don't have the numbers for the various unions in terms of the diversity of their membership, but we do have some empirical data because we can see it as we walk the streets and the people in our community walk the streets and see these job sites and that they do not reflect the diversity of the City. The question for -- and I've known -- we've been doing this for years round and round and round, but we never see any improvement in the labor force that comes from the Building Trades. What are you all doing to increase the number -- to diversify your membership and what happens to all those apprentices that we put on these jobs and we never see them again on the next job?

Well --

What happens to them?

You do have data. You do have access to data where 56 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. records are kept. So it is available to you through --

No. I'm talking about your membership. You can't tell us the makeup of membership of the various trades. That's what you said. You couldn't tell us the -- we ask all the time what is the makeup of the membership of various trades, and nobody has that information. That's what I'm talking about.

Well, I don't have that information. I can't manufacture it, but you do have information --

But you have --

You do have information as the government, because we have those records of who worked on the stadium projects, who worked on the Convention Center, who worked on the Post Office, anywhere where we've had an affirmative action program. 57 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. We just started our affirmative action -- our program with the School District where we've taken in close to 400 new apprentices who were graduates from the School District of Philadelphia. A large number, close to 300 of those, are African-American. They're all apprentices. Unfortunately, all they are right now is, most of them are unemployed because they're just apprentices. They're just going to school at the apprenticeship school, because we don't have projects at the School District to send them to or other projects, because we have a significant unemployment right now.

So by the time the schools that are in construction now are finished, those young people who are in the apprenticeship program through the School District will not have worked on the School District project. The projects will be done.

They may never 58 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. work on a School District project ever.

Will they work on any other projects?

Of course, yes.

Will they work on any other projects that are not publicly funded?

Yes. That's what the beauty of the apprenticeship is. That's what it is. You become a journeyperson in that craft.

Thank you.

Point of order.

Yes. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Miller for a point of order.

Mr. Gillespie, who ends up being their sponsor? Don't they need a sponsor to succeed or even become an apprentice?

Some crafts require -- I know the carpenters require an employer to sponsor an apprentice, and 59 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. I believe the carpenters have taken in well over 100 apprentices this year from the Philadelphia School District, all of which have sponsors, all of which are employed.

So that's included in the 300 number, the 100?

Yes. Yes.

So how many total apprentices do they have? How many total -- I don't want to say the School District, because you've said that that's 400, but total.

Well, from what I believe, the apprentices this year that were taken in were close to 500, 400 of which were School District graduates.

And 300 of them --

Now, a number of them came from our diversified apprenticeship program, went through the School District and then through our diversified apprenticeship program. A 60 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. number of them came from our Housing Authority program also.

So with the Housing Authority and School District program, those are separate programs other than the regular normal apprenticeship program?

They're a pre-apprenticeship program, like our DAP program is.

So how do they work out the sponsoring corporation or business that would end up being that sponsor, that person's sponsor?

Well, the person can get hooked up. The union can hook them up with a contractor. I mean, that's the way that works with the carpenters.

Does the union do that?

Yes. The carpenters do that. They require a sponsor. I believe they're the only ones 61 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. that require a sponsor. That keeps those students employed for four or I think it's five years now.

Okay.

Through their schooling.

Well, you know, earlier you said that when people say you haven't met the goals, then we don't have correct information. Do you remember that statement?

Yes. It was said that goals were not met, and we certainly did meet them.

Right. Well, can we have the information that helps us know?

You have it. I mean, it's your information.

Who has it?

Whatever City agency is required to monitor that. I guess it's the -- 62 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC.

The unions don't know?

I don't know.

Council President, do we know what agency has that information so we can stop saying incorrect statements?

Personally, I don't know.

MBEC or somebody like that. I don't know who they work for. They work for the City.

Mr. Solicitor, would you know who would have the information that the Councilmembers are seeking?

Point of information. I really need to ask. Each project there is an oversight -- Greater Philadelphia Urban Affairs Coalition may be the monitor for the project.

That's it.

They will 63 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. have the information for that project.

That particular project.

But at the end of the day, with all of this work going on with the apprenticeship program and all of that, our bottom line is, Madam President, none of these young people who are apprentices move to journeymen. They don't --

Excuse me. Where is that?

Well --

That's simply not true.

Can you tell us how many journeymen you have?

If a person becomes an apprentice, the natural ascension is to become a journeyperson.

It seems to me that each time we come here with a project --

The 64 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. unfortunate --

-- that we ask the same question --

Mr. Gillespie, let the Councilwoman finish her question, please.

It seems to me that the Trades would come in and you and the representatives from the Trades will come in with information to demonstrate to the Council that as we move through this project, that the young people in Philadelphia who live in Philadelphia, who could have access to these $60-an-hour jobs to keep them off the street, to keep them from killing each other, that there's some effort by the Building Trades to get these young people permanently on these jobs. We see them on public service jobs only for a moment, and when it's over, they are not employed, can't get employment and are left out in the street. That is our frustration. 65 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC.

Well, in all due respect --

And you don't give us -- you don't have the numbers. You don't know the racial makeup of these Building Trade unions. You can't give us this. How many members do you have? How many of them are minority? How many of them are women? Well, we don't keep that information. So you'll never know what the workforce is. And then they are sent out on the street at the discretion of the union hall and at the end of the day, they do not get the work, and that is the frustration that at least I'm experiencing, have always experienced in not having the young people who live in this City -- because we see the Jersey cars coming over here getting all of the work. So that's all I have to say about it. 66 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC.

Well, unfortunately, the sad thing is when a project is finished, everyone is out of work, but they are now union members and their name is placed on a list, and it's not at the union's discretion. It's because of that list. It's their placement on the list and their skill level which would then -- they get the next job. That's how it works. That's just the nature of our business. We work ourselves out of jobs all the time. Our unemployment figures are much higher than the norm because it's the nature of the industry. That's why, unfortunately, you have people here that are often times full of emotion, because they are unemployed.

The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Brown.

Thank you, Madam President. Good afternoon.

Good afternoon. 67 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC.

Tell us, are the Operating Engineers a part of the Building Trades?

Yes, they are.

I'm going to shift gears for a moment and seize the moment since you're here. Yesterday City Council Committee discussed and actually passed a bill sponsored by Councilman Darrell Clarke dealing with hate crime issues on construction sites. Are you familiar with the issue of the young man, Mr. Robinson, I believe his name was, who dealt with a hate crime issue at the Comcast site about three weeks ago who has been benched, meaning not working for the last more than days? 20

I am familiar 21 with three incidents of evil that occurred, and I would applaud and I laud City Council for their efforts, but I don't think you should limit it just to the construction industry. I think 68 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. people should identify -- when someone waves a noose at an African-American person, I imagine it means something awful. I know for an Irish Catholic in the union business it means something awful, because the establishment at one time used to hang business agents and union organizers. So I know what that hate is, and I think that it's appropriate that City Council and the government of the City point that out and say that that should not stand. I also know what we did about the incidents. The first incident happened -- it happened to be an operating engineer who had the noose. He was fired. And we did everything that we could to prevent him from getting hurt physically on the job. We had to escort him out. The next incident occurred on that job to that operating engineer, and the genesis of that was -- that's a wonderful project over there, a project, 69 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. by the way, that's hitting all of its minority requirements as far as employment is concerned that I'm very proud of. But my business agent went down there and immediately demanded that that worker be fired. Then my business agent wound up getting into an altercation with the union, who came down to represent their worker, who said he didn't do it. We didn't blink. The guy is still off the job. He was still off the job. So that's what we did. Now, as far as the operating engineer being out of work, again -- and this is unfortunate in our business -- from what I understand, the machine that he was working was disassembled, is no 20 longer there.

Disassembled at the time that he reported the incident to the authorities?

No, no. He took someone else's job. Someone else on 70 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. that job who was operating that equipment got fired because -- I don't want to say they were entrepreneurial. They were running materials up and down, and that machine was designated for specific material and when other people in their quest either to get a ride up to the 52nd floor or the 54th floor or something like that, he would give them a ride up. And you can't -- the rules are that you can't do it. He got caught doing that a couple of times and he lost his job. So this operating engineer was the rehire there, and he came in. And that machine was scheduled to be taken down. It wasn't taken down -- because I saw the whistle blower comments, and I know that maybe he feels that way and I hope he gets a job someplace. Maybe if we can get moving here, he can get the work for Geppert or something, if we can get these projects moving along. But I read with interest or I saw with interest that people wanted to 71 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. characterize this as, Well, is this some kind of union thing. No. We're appalled at that kind of stuff. We won't let that stand. And we were out there when people had their -- had the demonstration. We were there to demonstrate with them. Evil is evil, and that shouldn't stand anywhere. And you knew the guy who did it knew he did something wrong, because right away he went to say, Oh, it was a joke. No, no joke, you're off the job. The Building Trades Union Council insisted that that guy be gone. And then we had a confrontation with one of our unions because of it. But we didn't blink.

And so standard operating procedure is one where you deal with the offender, in this case that person is terminated?

Yeah. They're gone from that job, and the Driscoll Company then adopted a policy that we've 72 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. all signed on to that says that this is evil.

You say he's gone from that job. Is that to suggest he has an opportunity to go to another job?

He's a skilled craftsman. He's going to work somewhere.

So what happens with the skilled craftsman who had to deal with the racism?

Well, he should go get counseling. He should go figure out the back side of racial. We can't do anything about that.

Including not provide him assistance in getting relocated to another job?

He gets his own job. He got his job on his own.

Forgive me?

He gets his job on his own. 73 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC.

Speak to us in greater detail about the School District agreement wherein those discussions actually started in this Council with the former head of the SRC. Tell us the status of that agreement to date.

It's kind of interesting. The proposal that we gave the School District never changed from 2003. It was enacted in 2006. I don't know what took so long, but we never changed a comma or semicolon. That was our proposal, and I know a lot of people, they did this, did that. This was the Building Trades proposal, to do this, to get kids from the schools into the crafts. That's on record. What the unions will get for it is the work that -- the capital improvement work that the School District has to do. Unfortunately, they haven't -- I think they only have one or two projects started since then. They're 74 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. kind of in a paralysis there with all the --

Transition.

I guess that's the proper word. Whatever is going on over there. But nonetheless, there were a number of small minority contractors who work for the School District, like neighborhood guys. Those neighborhood guys were brought in -- the people who work for them were brought into the unions or afforded union membership in their particular disciplines. And we've had some rough spots there, but for the most part, it's working out pretty good.

So is there a possible career path for those young people who enter into this program you just outlined?

Yeah. The career path is, they become an apprentice in one of our trades. They get into the electricians union. They become an 75 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. electrician. They get into the plumbers union. They become a plumber after their education.

And I've learned that the next step after that is journeyman. So what criteria, what credentials, what do they need to move to the --

Education. They learn their skills. They learn how to be proficient, how to -- so they can command. I'm glad we set the level at $60 an hour. I wish we could scribe that down so we can get all our agreements there. That's where we want to be. We want to get up into that stratosphere, but yet you learn how to be a productive employee of an employer so you can --

My final question is, what advice or recommendation would you offer to the lady, the Trucking LLC, given the reality she portrayed?

Well, she's so 76 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. right in what she says. She has one truck, and that whole business is abusive. And what happens to her next is the same thing that happened to a number of our smaller contractors at the stadiums. They wound up -- they go and they work like crazy, like our dear friend Luis Cruz. He worked like hell, pardon my language, on the stadium construction and they weren't paying him and he's having -- he's calling to complain to me, I have trouble putting fuel in my equipment because I can't get a line of credit. It's a tough business, the construction industry, and so he gets put in a position and she gets put in a position where she has to settle for, if they owe her, settle for 90 cents on the dollar. That's what happened up on Broad Street on that Broad Street project, that Torcon project that just got finished. All those small contractors, all those minority contractors, I mean, a number of 77 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. them had to settle for like 75 cents on the dollar, because they were owed so much money, they have to decide, Well, what do I -- so essentially they worked that whole project for next to nothing. That's the business. It's real tough. If we could put some kind of -- legislate some way to prevent it a little better, it would be nice. Thank you.

Thank you, Madam President.

The Chair recognizes Councilman Clarke.

Thank you, Madam President. Madam President, can I have a representative of the Convention Center at the table, please? Thank you. A couple of quick questions.

He didn't want the middle mike.

Mr. Mezzaroba, this particular project, 78 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. correct me if I'm wrong, is required to pay prevailing wages?

That's correct.

Is it required to have a union workforce?

I don't believe so. Let me just -- the answer is no. 9

So if there is a bid solicitation issue and a minority or female-owned contractor responds to the bid solicitation and that contractor is deemed qualified, extremely qualified, and that's the low bid, what happens?

I believe prior to that we're in the process of signing a PLA, which --

The Project Labor Agreement?

If I could confer with counsel for one second, I can have an accurate answer for you.

Certainly. (Pause.) 79 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC.

Sorry, Councilman. The answer simply is, once we sign a PLA, it's a contract that we would have with the unions. If a non-union contractor is the low bid and qualified --

Are you sure? I know in the PLA it says that --

It doesn't have to be a union contractor.

It does not have to be?

No, but they would have to sign a union agreement at least for this job and their workforce would come from the union halls. That's what I've been told.

Are you sure of that? I'm going to ask for the document. I'm going to ask for a copy of the PLA.

Okay. We're in the process of negotiating and we'll send you a draft that we have. 80 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC.

When will you have it negotiated?

My understanding, Councilman, is that I believe we've negotiated the terms of the PLA. There are two attachments that were still in the process. One is the PALM/Built-Rite program and the second is our apprenticeship program.

The apprenticeship program is in the PALM.

What apprenticeship program?

The apprenticeship program that we've been talking about here.

I thought you said, Mr. Gillespie, that you are not -- are you privy to the apprenticeship program and all of the nuances of it, the 50 percent?

No. I haven't seen it. It's not --

How do you 81 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. know it's being negotiated as a part of the PLA if you don't know anything about it?

It's an appendix to the agreement and I haven't seen it yet.

But you know that that's a part of the PLA?

Well, in the agreement, it referenced that appendix. But just to get to your point, if you have, Councilman, a minority contract -- one of the problems that we're having right now is finding contractors large enough to take this project on. This is not --

But, see, I don't want to get caught up -- in all due respect, Mr. Gillespie, you're getting ready to take me in another path. And I do respect you. I'm asking a very specific legal question, and if you're going to negotiate a PLA -- and I actually don't think that's -- and I'm 82 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. going to ask for a copy of that, because that's not my understanding of this in its entirety -- that requires that you be a union workforce -- and I don't know how you do that, frankly speaking. I know that you can ask the person to sign on per the job -- then you're basically creating an environment where, one, it has to be a union job site; two, as a result of that, you're going to limit your ability to get minorities and females on the job site as both contractors and employees, because we've already agreed and I think everybody will acknowledge that there's a limited number of union minority contractors and union female contractors. So why would you negotiate a PLA that essentially limits your ability?

Because the PLA also gives you workforce harmony, and that's probably the biggest issue that both the Authority and the state --

Non-strike 83 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. and all of that.

And we never contemplated, to be honest with you, Councilman, that this would be anything but a union job. So the Commonwealth had insisted and we agree that if this is going to be a union job, the PLA is necessary.

I need to see that information, because in all due respect with what you're telling me right here --

I can get it for you.

-- until I see that, I just don't simply believe that the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania will require in writing that you make this a union job. I don't know how you do that legally.

Okay. I'll get that for you.

How long will that take? 84 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC.

Well, we may have it. If not, I'll have it couriered over.

Who is working on it?

Excuse me?

Who is working on it?

Joe Resta from our staff, our Project Executive, is one of the lead negotiators. I don't know if he's brought those documents with him.

I really need to see that. That's a fundamental question. In the minority community and the female-owned community, there are a substantial number of individuals and a substantial number of contractors who are extremely qualified and they just happen not to be union. So they are limited in terms of their ability to get on a lot of significant contracts in the City of Philadelphia. And they don't want to sign these PLA agreements because it then 85 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. creates financial problems for them, particularly the small contractors, because all of a sudden, they have to increase the level of benefits associated to the employees and they just simply can't do that. So as I mentioned earlier, in terms of our ability to meet these goals and all these other goals that we're sitting in here setting for the last few months, unless we start getting creative and figuring out a way to get these people, these contractors who are extremely qualified and who are not union or a lot of these employees, some of whom are 40, 50 years old who are not going to go through some apprenticeship program, unless we can figure out a way to get creative and get them directly on the job site, if they're qualified, because I don't want anybody that's not qualified, without going through this long and arduous process called apprenticeship and subject to these PLAs. So that's why I 86 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. need to see what this PLA is calling for.

I will get a copy of the PLA, Councilman. If you recall, I think, at Tuesday's hearing, Councilman DiCicco had distributed a letter from Budget Secretary Masch, along with a list of requirements that were prerequisites for us to go to get funding and go to bid, and I believe one of those prerequisites is a PLA. What I will do is, I will --

I was too focused on the casino portion of that amendment, so I honestly didn't see that.

But I'll have that information for you shortly.

Shortly as in what?

Shortly is, I will speak to counsel right now and we'll find out who actually has the document that's quickest to get here.

And are you saying that the state has required 87 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. that you negotiate a PLA --

For this job, yes.

-- that requires that it be a union job? Because that's what you said. I don't think you meant to say that.

The PLA is a Project Labor Agreement with the Building Trades and the underlying unions. In exchange for certain no-strike clauses and other favorable clauses to the job, in return you agree that your workforce will pull from the Building Trades unions, that is correct.

Right, but does it bind you to only hiring union contractors?

No, but that union contractor has to pull their manpower from the unions.

No. Does that PLA bind you -- does it prohibit you from hiring a non-union contractor? 88 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC.

It does not, no, but --

That was my question.

Correct. You can be a non-union contractor, but if you have a staff, you cannot -- if that staff is not union, you cannot bring them onto the job.

So why would we negotiate something like that? Because that's the way it's always been?

It was a requirement. It also, I think, on a job of this size, with two and a half million dollars a month --

Can I get a point of order?

Sure.

Councilman, if there are such contractors -- and what we've done at the School District is where there were a number of small contractors, we not only insisted that 89 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. they become union, that was part of the deal, but also that their employees become union, that there's no change in workforce.

Well, of course you would do that, because you want everybody to be in your union.

I think it's important that every worker has the protection of a collective bargaining agreement so we don't run up against an employer that says, Well, I don't want to pay you, I can't pay you this healthcare benefit. That's what we have going on. I think having the protection of a collective bargaining agreement is a good thing.

I understand your position, but my concern is that if a person never gets on the job, then none of that matters. You don't have any healthcare benefits or any other things that you all require to make sure that they get, because they don't 90 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. have a job. And I'm trying to figure out a way to get people on the job site that are not union, and if you're saying that -- if a non-union contractor is low bid, comes in, none of the employees are union contractors, these people will automatically go in the union and work on that job site, and you're not going to say, Well, wait a minute, I got people in the hall that have been unemployed, you can't bring this workforce?

What we've done -- I didn't say that, but if that's what you're suggesting --

I'm asking.

-- we can look. We've done that before. That's not unprecedented, what you just suggested. That has been done. We did it with our School District agreement.

I want it to be clear. If the bid solicitations are sent out by the Convention Center -- I guess I'm mentioning it to everybody -- 91 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. and a non-union minority or female-owned contractor comes in as the lowest responsible bidder and that contractor wants to bring their entire workforce onto the job site, those people will go into the union immediately as what?

Well, as what they are.

Apprenticeship?

They can't be apprentices.

So they're going to go in as journeymen?

They're going to be paid as journeymen, yeah.

All right. Convention Center, you guys agree with that?

Under the current PLA, I don't believe that that would be the case. It would be a call by the union if -- currently if we signed this PLA, we would have to hire from the 92 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. members of the Philadelphia Building Trades Council. If the Building Trades Council agrees that this non-union bidder can also bring in their own employees and be paid prevailing wage, that could happen.

They'll be paid union wage.

Union wage, yeah. That could happen.

So is your PLA done?

It's been finalized to the extent that we've sent it to the Building Trades Council. I'm not sure where it stands in there, and it has not been ratified by my Board, so it's not fully executed.

So if the Chairman of the Building Trades is saying that if the lowest responsible bidder is selected as a contractor for the job and that lowest responsible bidder is prepared to sign the PLA, the Project 93 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. Labor Agreement, then the Building Trades would accept that contractor and its members in --

No. I'm not going to say that, because what you just said -- my view is, you characterize this as a small contractor coming in with five or six people to do a specific piece of work. What you're just saying now is that a non-union general contractor from Atlanta can come --

I didn't mention the word "general." I didn't mention the word "Atlanta." I said a qualified responsible contractor responds to a bid solicitation --

What I'm telling you is that we will afford the non-union contractor, who is a subcontractor to the general contractor. That's who --

So you were talking about you only agree if it's a sub? 94 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC.

Yeah. I won't agree if it's a general contractor, no. 4

Point of information. Madam President, point of information.

The Chair recognizes Councilman Rizzo.

Mr. Mezzaroba, is it a fact, is it a given that a non-union contractor would even get an opportunity? Would you be sending bids to non-union contractors?

Well, our process has been and based on our statute, we have to open solicit. So what we've done is, we've put it in local newspapers in Philadelphia, Harrisburg and Pittsburgh, as well as the Dodge Report and several other engineering records and several other industry papers.

So you'd accept bids from non-union contractors?

We have to. 95 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. Whoever qualifies, Councilman, because we pre-qualify, whoever qualifies, based on their finances and their ability to complete the job, will get a package to bid.

Doesn't the PLA, though, write them out of the deal?

What the PLA does is, it ensures that the people that they hire, the workforce that this contractor would come in and hire, would be a union workforce. They're not precluded. It makes it more difficult, but they're not precluded.

I thought I just heard that that non-union contractor would have to become union even beyond hiring union employees.

They'd have to sign the PLA, because they'd have to have an agreement in place with the local Building Trades.

Thank you.

And the 96 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. local Building Trades is not going to sign off on the PLA because they don't want a non-union contractor getting the job. Let's just stop playing with ourselves. All right?

If a non-union contractor is low bid and they're qualified and responsive, the unions, I don't believe, would have an option but to take that non-union contractor and they would sign the PLA, no different than --

You're saying two different things. First you said that you have to get the sign-off from the Building Trades. That implies that they have veto power. Now you're saying you don't require it.

No, no. The original question was if a non-union contractor came in and wanted to use non-union employees, that would require an agreement from the Building Trades. But if we sign the PLA -- 97 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC.

If it's a contractor, the assumption is that the contractor has employees already.

Not all the time. They could be supervisory, but the workforce that will be doing the actual physical work, hanging the Sheetrock, pouring the concrete, laying the rods, all have to --

Well, all I know is that the people that I deal with that are non-union, they have people that work for them.

Correct.

These people might do work on the side or whatever, but they're not going to go out there and be a responsible bidder and not be able to identify a workforce.

It makes it very difficult for a non-union company to come in --

We make it very difficult. 98 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC.

-- and bid a job that has this PLA.

We make it very difficult.

That is correct.

We make it very difficult.

That is correct.

So what I need to do is see the PLA, that it sounds like to me you're requiring in that PLA that if anybody is the lowest responsible bidder and the Convention Center -- the lowest responsible bidder has the wherewithal to do this job, Building Trades, you have to accept them in the trades as a union workforce, along with their employees or unless it's below five? I'm just trying to get some clarity here. Because if you want to talk about getting people in the union in a significant way and in an expedited 99 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. manner, you can't just depend on apprentices. It's never going to happen. So if you're going to say --

Well, Councilman, I disagree that it's never going to happen. It is happening and it has been happening. It's just unfortunate that --

It hasn't happened. I don't know what history you're looking at. It hasn't happened in the City of Philadelphia. I mean, it just hasn't happened.

The experience that you have had as a Councilperson here, you've seen it happen. You've seen it happen on both stadiums. You've seen it happen on the Post Office.

I was on both oversight committees of the two stadiums.

And we hit our --

And we did 100 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. not hit our employee goals.

Yes, we did.

We did not, Pat.

I'm sorry. We did.

I sat on both of the oversight -- we got very close to our contract goals, but what we had was minority contractors could not identify the workforce to meet their employee goals. I'm telling you, I sat there, I came to every meeting, so I'm aware of the history. So unless you're prepared to accept another process that gets people into the union above and beyond the apprenticeship process, then you're never going to meet all of these goals. That's all I'm saying. And that's just based off of history. But I won't belabor it. We do have Council. I'd like to see the Project Labor Agreement, Mr. Mezzaroba. 101 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. I'm assuming other members of Council would like to see it also.

We're seeing if we can get it off the BlackBerry. If not, we'll have to send somebody back to the office.

Thank you.

Councilwoman Miller, your light is on. Did you want to be recognized?

Yes. Thank you, Madam President. I wanted to ask Mr. Gillespie before he left, I believe I've been here in City Council now about 13 years and I believe through the stadiums, Craverna and all this stuff, it's extremely frustrating, and maybe we've been misinformed. No one has the data that I'd like to see. You keep saying that we don't have -- that we have been misinformed, that the numbers have been met, but I have never seen that, and I was wondering if -- I'm going to request 102 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. that is it possible for you and, what is it, about -- how many trades is it? 4

42. 5

42? 6 Okay. 7

Well, there are 8 14 trades. There are 42 local unions in 9 the Building Trades Council. 10

Is it 11 possible that we could continue this 12 discussion so we could better understand 13 and better figure out how we can work 14 together to increase, if needs to be 15 increased, to figure out what is it -- I 16 guess mainly it's around clarification of 17 issues, how can we help begin to deal 18 with the issue of minority participation, 19 how can we help address that female's 20 problem with the dump truck issue, what 21 is it that maybe she's not doing that 22 keeps her from getting contracts, just 23 some way that we can form some committee 24 where we can actually talk, discuss and 25 work together on this. 103 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC.

Sure.

And I thought maybe you could bring some leadership of some of the unions or all the unions.

I'd be happy to do that. I'd be happy to do that, and they'd be willing to come.

Excuse me. I'm sorry?

I'd be happy to do that. They would be willing to come, yes.

Okay. And maybe even -- well, that could be a beginning. Then maybe later we could maybe include some of the contractors. And I think it's important. I know that I've helped people get placed, and they have been harassed on the jobs, particularly if it's only one minority on a job with all non-minorities. There have been issues, and it's time for that to stop. This is 2007. It's time to 104 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. stop. We have to move forward in this City. And public means everybody. We share in that, and particularly Philadelphia residents. I can't figure out why that young lady can't get a contract. She's from Philadelphia. She's certainly doing something that I don't know that many people do in terms of females having dump trucks. Why can't she get a contract? That's crazy. With all the millions and billions of dollars worth of work that's going to come through the City, we have to begin to figure out ways to -- you say we don't need to improve because you have numbers. We think we do need to improve because we don't know the numbers. So that's all I wanted to ask, Council President. I'm not going to drag this on, but it's been very frustrating for me over 12 or 13 years of still going over the same thing, contract after contract, project after project. And 105 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. maybe it's improved. I don't know.

Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Tasco.

I'd like to add to that request that they bring the membership numbers so they could tell us how many minorities are members of these unions.

Mr. Gillespie?

I'll request it. I know I don't have them. They certainly have them.

Well, how do you know we don't know the numbers if you don't ask?

Don't go there. Don't go there.

I'll request that they bring their numbers.

Fine.

Okay. 106 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. We'll have the meeting.

Councilman Clarke, do you want to wait for the --

No. 7

-- Project Labor Agreement before we continue?

No. We have to have Council today, Madam President.

All right. The Chair recognizes Councilman DiCicco. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Madam President, were you going to be taking a break right after this, or no?

I think that we've had Sister sitting here since 9:30 to give an invocation. I know she said it's quite an education for her, but she's going to have to be out of here by 3 o'clock. So I thought that what we could do is conclude our public hearing 107 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. and public meeting of the Committee of the Whole, have Sister deliver the invocation, since we all need some guidance here, and we would break for 6 minutes, come back, do caucus and 7 Council, and it would give the staff 8 enough time to move the table and do 9 whatever has to be done. 10 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: With that, 11 I appreciate that. I just have a brief 12 comment. I will be withdrawing the 13 amendment that I introduced on Tuesday. 14 Having said that, I still want the record 15 to reflect that I have not yet received any correspondence from the Governor that he is committed to releasing the funds for this Convention Center expansion and that his lack of communication for the better part of a year with me is insulting. And for too many years, we have allowed the Governor to tell everyone exactly what they want to hear, without any follow-through, and I, for one, am tired of hearing his promises, 108 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. but for some reason he won't answer the question on will you release the funds for this project, which leads me to believe that it's not that time sensitive, because I think that there are a number of people in this body who believe that if we don't get this done today, the project will go away, and that's not the case. And because of the Governor, this project, as I said a couple days ago, has almost doubled, and that's not fair to the taxpayers. I am going to ask that this body -- that I will not ask for this bill 16 to be brought up. I will ask that this bill be held until Mr. Gillespie provides this body with the information and data and materials that we've asked him for in terms of the number of people in the unions, the number of minorities and women who are in these unions. I don't think it's appropriate for us to move on this, on these amendments in particular to reach certain goals, which I do not 109 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. believe are attainable. That's it.

Mr. Gillespie, I don't know if you heard Councilman DiCicco.

I'm sorry. I did not.

I know you were busy back there in conversation with that very attractive young woman.

Let the record show it was all business, please.

I don't know about that. What kind of business?

But he didn't answer my questions either. He wouldn't answer --

Either. She said either.

Councilman DiCicco is making a request that Council not consider this bill until such time as you provide Councilmembers 110 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. with the requests that they have apparently consistently made today to tell us how many minority are in each of the unions. How long would it take you to make a few phone calls to get us that information?

I could probably have it to you by January.

How about next, let's see, June? COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Fine by me. I'll wait until January.

How long would it take really?

I don't know. I mean, I don't know how you get this information. I could call and ask, Send your rosters down. To who? To the President of City Council? I don't know whether the unions have a racial breakdown themselves. I don't know that.

You don't know that the unions have it?

I do not know 111 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. that. I don't know whether they have it or not. I honestly don't know that. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: That goes to the heart of this whole discussion today. And, you know, this is our last opportunity, probably one of the last opportunities we will have.

Point of information. Again, how do you reach the goals? Because if you call for this and -- if you call Jane Brown, how do you know whether she's black, white, Asian or Mexican? How do you know? How do you meet the goals?

I don't know that they have that. I will try to get that for you.

We're going to hear a little more testimony on this bill. I feel very badly that Sister has been waiting. Though, she's very comfortable back there. And then we're going to recess. In the interim, I would 112 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. ask you to please make phone calls today.

I will try.

And I'm sure that at least a couple of unions will have information that Councilmembers are asking for. I think we have had, what, three hearings on this issue? So you could feel free to go into the Chief Clerk's Office, use the phone there, take a seat, get a desk and make your phone calls.

You're missing -- all right. Okay. Fine.

I'm missing what?

No, no. That's all right. Listen, if you don't want to expand the Convention Center, that's fine. I'll try to get your information. I will really try, but you're asking people -- some of them don't even care either.

Some what? 113 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC.

Some of the unions don't care to build the Convention Center either. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: That's not fair, Mr. Gillespie.

I'm sorry, Councilman? COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: That's not fair. There's no suggestion that we don't want to move with expansion.

You just said -- COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: You just said we don't want to build it. That's not fair.

Councilman, everything you've done here -- COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: We have the right to ask questions.

-- today is a canard. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: We have --

You wind up -- I come here and I tell you -- 114 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC.

We're going to hear one person speak at a time, please.

I come here and tell you we will live up as we have lived up to every goal that we've set. When we first built the Convention Center, this is what we've done, and what do I get back? Oh, well, let's see the numbers. Well, I don't have the numbers. And there's some perception here that the Building Trades is populated by all white people. The President of the Building Trades is an African-American. There are 40 business agents within the Building Trades union. Twenty-two of them are African-American. I mean, you know, I'm just at a loss, but if you put the regulations, you're just -- I come down. I'll answer questions. We'll live up to our commitments. We've taken many, many initiatives to include people of color into the Building Trades, initiatives 115 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. that were our own, our diversified apprenticeship, all those others that I mentioned. We've done all that, and now you're saying, Look, we don't believe you, let's see the numbers. Well -- COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Mr. Gillespie, I appreciate your recent comments, but because we ask questions doesn't necessarily -- you shouldn't be drawn to the conclusion that we don't want the Convention Center expansion to move forward. We went through this with the stadiums. Your membership would pack these Chambers and shout us down every time we asked similar types of questions. At least today we're being able to get through this in a much more civil way. I was the one who introduced this bill. I sit on the Board along with you. I am for Convention Center expansion, but I'm not for it at the sake of cutting people short who could be a part of this expansion process; namely, minorities and people who live in the 116 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. City of Philadelphia being part of that workforce. And if I'm asking you questions that you don't have answers for, we're asking you to go get us some answers. Now, I can tell you, as I believe every other District Councilman could, the racial makeup of the people that we represent, and we all represent somewhere in excess of 150,000 people. Now, I have those numbers. And I can't imagine why the unions would not have the numbers of people that they represent broken down between minorities and women. I find that very difficult to believe. You may not have it, but I can't understand why they would not have that.

And I imagine they have it. I don't know that they have it, but what I do know is that they're autonomous groups in my Council. They don't have to share it with anyone, and they may not want to share it. So when I say I will try to get it, I'll try 117 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. to get it. But I kind of resent the idea, Well, either get it or we're not going to expand the Convention Center. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Never said that.

I think we're up against -- COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: I never said that.

When I said I'd get it to you in January, you said that's fine. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: I'll wait. I'd like to have the numbers.

The trouble is, we have to get this process moving. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: The process is moving and this is part of that process. There's no drop-dead deadline on this. The Governor held it up, as you know, for three years. What's another couple weeks going to matter? Thank you, Madam President.