Tell us, are the Operating Engineers a part of the Building Trades?
I'm going to shift gears for a moment and seize the moment since you're here. Yesterday City Council Committee discussed and actually passed a bill sponsored by Councilman Darrell Clarke dealing with hate crime issues on construction sites. Are you familiar with the issue of the young man, Mr. Robinson, I believe his name was, who dealt with a hate crime issue at the Comcast site about three weeks ago who has been benched, meaning not working for the last more than days? 20
I am familiar 21 with three incidents of evil that occurred, and I would applaud and I laud City Council for their efforts, but I don't think you should limit it just to the construction industry. I think 68 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. people should identify -- when someone waves a noose at an African-American person, I imagine it means something awful. I know for an Irish Catholic in the union business it means something awful, because the establishment at one time used to hang business agents and union organizers. So I know what that hate is, and I think that it's appropriate that City Council and the government of the City point that out and say that that should not stand. I also know what we did about the incidents. The first incident happened -- it happened to be an operating engineer who had the noose. He was fired. And we did everything that we could to prevent him from getting hurt physically on the job. We had to escort him out. The next incident occurred on that job to that operating engineer, and the genesis of that was -- that's a wonderful project over there, a project, 69 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. by the way, that's hitting all of its minority requirements as far as employment is concerned that I'm very proud of. But my business agent went down there and immediately demanded that that worker be fired. Then my business agent wound up getting into an altercation with the union, who came down to represent their worker, who said he didn't do it. We didn't blink. The guy is still off the job. He was still off the job. So that's what we did. Now, as far as the operating engineer being out of work, again -- and this is unfortunate in our business -- from what I understand, the machine that he was working was disassembled, is no 20 longer there.
Disassembled at the time that he reported the incident to the authorities?
No, no. He took someone else's job. Someone else on 70 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. that job who was operating that equipment got fired because -- I don't want to say they were entrepreneurial. They were running materials up and down, and that machine was designated for specific material and when other people in their quest either to get a ride up to the 52nd floor or the 54th floor or something like that, he would give them a ride up. And you can't -- the rules are that you can't do it. He got caught doing that a couple of times and he lost his job. So this operating engineer was the rehire there, and he came in. And that machine was scheduled to be taken down. It wasn't taken down -- because I saw the whistle blower comments, and I know that maybe he feels that way and I hope he gets a job someplace. Maybe if we can get moving here, he can get the work for Geppert or something, if we can get these projects moving along. But I read with interest or I saw with interest that people wanted to 71 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. characterize this as, Well, is this some kind of union thing. No. We're appalled at that kind of stuff. We won't let that stand. And we were out there when people had their -- had the demonstration. We were there to demonstrate with them. Evil is evil, and that shouldn't stand anywhere. And you knew the guy who did it knew he did something wrong, because right away he went to say, Oh, it was a joke. No, no joke, you're off the job. The Building Trades Union Council insisted that that guy be gone. And then we had a confrontation with one of our unions because of it. But we didn't blink.
And so standard operating procedure is one where you deal with the offender, in this case that person is terminated?
Yeah. They're gone from that job, and the Driscoll Company then adopted a policy that we've 72 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. all signed on to that says that this is evil.
You say he's gone from that job. Is that to suggest he has an opportunity to go to another job?
So what happens with the skilled craftsman who had to deal with the racism?
Well, he should go get counseling. He should go figure out the back side of racial. We can't do anything about that.
Including not provide him assistance in getting relocated to another job?
He gets his job on his own. 73 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC.
Speak to us in greater detail about the School District agreement wherein those discussions actually started in this Council with the former head of the SRC. Tell us the status of that agreement to date.
It's kind of interesting. The proposal that we gave the School District never changed from 2003. It was enacted in 2006. I don't know what took so long, but we never changed a comma or semicolon. That was our proposal, and I know a lot of people, they did this, did that. This was the Building Trades proposal, to do this, to get kids from the schools into the crafts. That's on record. What the unions will get for it is the work that -- the capital improvement work that the School District has to do. Unfortunately, they haven't -- I think they only have one or two projects started since then. They're 74 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. kind of in a paralysis there with all the --
I guess that's the proper word. Whatever is going on over there. But nonetheless, there were a number of small minority contractors who work for the School District, like neighborhood guys. Those neighborhood guys were brought in -- the people who work for them were brought into the unions or afforded union membership in their particular disciplines. And we've had some rough spots there, but for the most part, it's working out pretty good.
So is there a possible career path for those young people who enter into this program you just outlined?
Yeah. The career path is, they become an apprentice in one of our trades. They get into the electricians union. They become an 75 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. electrician. They get into the plumbers union. They become a plumber after their education.
And I've learned that the next step after that is journeyman. So what criteria, what credentials, what do they need to move to the --
Education. They learn their skills. They learn how to be proficient, how to -- so they can command. I'm glad we set the level at $60 an hour. I wish we could scribe that down so we can get all our agreements there. That's where we want to be. We want to get up into that stratosphere, but yet you learn how to be a productive employee of an employer so you can --
My final question is, what advice or recommendation would you offer to the lady, the Trucking LLC, given the reality she portrayed?
Well, she's so 76 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. right in what she says. She has one truck, and that whole business is abusive. And what happens to her next is the same thing that happened to a number of our smaller contractors at the stadiums. They wound up -- they go and they work like crazy, like our dear friend Luis Cruz. He worked like hell, pardon my language, on the stadium construction and they weren't paying him and he's having -- he's calling to complain to me, I have trouble putting fuel in my equipment because I can't get a line of credit. It's a tough business, the construction industry, and so he gets put in a position and she gets put in a position where she has to settle for, if they owe her, settle for 90 cents on the dollar. That's what happened up on Broad Street on that Broad Street project, that Torcon project that just got finished. All those small contractors, all those minority contractors, I mean, a number of 77 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. them had to settle for like 75 cents on the dollar, because they were owed so much money, they have to decide, Well, what do I -- so essentially they worked that whole project for next to nothing. That's the business. It's real tough. If we could put some kind of -- legislate some way to prevent it a little better, it would be nice. Thank you.
Thank you, Madam President. Madam President, can I have a representative of the Convention Center at the table, please? Thank you. A couple of quick questions.
Mr. Mezzaroba, this particular project, 78 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. correct me if I'm wrong, is required to pay prevailing wages?
So if there is a bid solicitation issue and a minority or female-owned contractor responds to the bid solicitation and that contractor is deemed qualified, extremely qualified, and that's the low bid, what happens?
I believe prior to that we're in the process of signing a PLA, which --
If I could confer with counsel for one second, I can have an accurate answer for you.
Certainly. (Pause.) 79 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC.
Sorry, Councilman. The answer simply is, once we sign a PLA, it's a contract that we would have with the unions. If a non-union contractor is the low bid and qualified --
No, but they would have to sign a union agreement at least for this job and their workforce would come from the union halls. That's what I've been told.
Are you sure of that? I'm going to ask for the document. I'm going to ask for a copy of the PLA.
Okay. We're in the process of negotiating and we'll send you a draft that we have. 80 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC.
My understanding, Councilman, is that I believe we've negotiated the terms of the PLA. There are two attachments that were still in the process. One is the PALM/Built-Rite program and the second is our apprenticeship program.
The apprenticeship program that we've been talking about here.
I thought you said, Mr. Gillespie, that you are not -- are you privy to the apprenticeship program and all of the nuances of it, the 50 percent?
How do you 81 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. know it's being negotiated as a part of the PLA if you don't know anything about it?
It's an appendix to the agreement and I haven't seen it yet.
Well, in the agreement, it referenced that appendix. But just to get to your point, if you have, Councilman, a minority contract -- one of the problems that we're having right now is finding contractors large enough to take this project on. This is not --
But, see, I don't want to get caught up -- in all due respect, Mr. Gillespie, you're getting ready to take me in another path. And I do respect you. I'm asking a very specific legal question, and if you're going to negotiate a PLA -- and I actually don't think that's -- and I'm 82 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. going to ask for a copy of that, because that's not my understanding of this in its entirety -- that requires that you be a union workforce -- and I don't know how you do that, frankly speaking. I know that you can ask the person to sign on per the job -- then you're basically creating an environment where, one, it has to be a union job site; two, as a result of that, you're going to limit your ability to get minorities and females on the job site as both contractors and employees, because we've already agreed and I think everybody will acknowledge that there's a limited number of union minority contractors and union female contractors. So why would you negotiate a PLA that essentially limits your ability?
Because the PLA also gives you workforce harmony, and that's probably the biggest issue that both the Authority and the state --
Non-strike 83 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. and all of that.
And we never contemplated, to be honest with you, Councilman, that this would be anything but a union job. So the Commonwealth had insisted and we agree that if this is going to be a union job, the PLA is necessary.
I need to see that information, because in all due respect with what you're telling me right here --
-- until I see that, I just don't simply believe that the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania will require in writing that you make this a union job. I don't know how you do that legally.
How long will that take? 84 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC.
Well, we may have it. If not, I'll have it couriered over.
Joe Resta from our staff, our Project Executive, is one of the lead negotiators. I don't know if he's brought those documents with him.
I really need to see that. That's a fundamental question. In the minority community and the female-owned community, there are a substantial number of individuals and a substantial number of contractors who are extremely qualified and they just happen not to be union. So they are limited in terms of their ability to get on a lot of significant contracts in the City of Philadelphia. And they don't want to sign these PLA agreements because it then 85 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. creates financial problems for them, particularly the small contractors, because all of a sudden, they have to increase the level of benefits associated to the employees and they just simply can't do that. So as I mentioned earlier, in terms of our ability to meet these goals and all these other goals that we're sitting in here setting for the last few months, unless we start getting creative and figuring out a way to get these people, these contractors who are extremely qualified and who are not union or a lot of these employees, some of whom are 40, 50 years old who are not going to go through some apprenticeship program, unless we can figure out a way to get creative and get them directly on the job site, if they're qualified, because I don't want anybody that's not qualified, without going through this long and arduous process called apprenticeship and subject to these PLAs. So that's why I 86 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. need to see what this PLA is calling for.
I will get a copy of the PLA, Councilman. If you recall, I think, at Tuesday's hearing, Councilman DiCicco had distributed a letter from Budget Secretary Masch, along with a list of requirements that were prerequisites for us to go to get funding and go to bid, and I believe one of those prerequisites is a PLA. What I will do is, I will --
I was too focused on the casino portion of that amendment, so I honestly didn't see that.
Shortly is, I will speak to counsel right now and we'll find out who actually has the document that's quickest to get here.
And are you saying that the state has required 87 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. that you negotiate a PLA --
-- that requires that it be a union job? Because that's what you said. I don't think you meant to say that.
The PLA is a Project Labor Agreement with the Building Trades and the underlying unions. In exchange for certain no-strike clauses and other favorable clauses to the job, in return you agree that your workforce will pull from the Building Trades unions, that is correct.
Right, but does it bind you to only hiring union contractors?
No, but that union contractor has to pull their manpower from the unions.
No. Does that PLA bind you -- does it prohibit you from hiring a non-union contractor? 88 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC.
Correct. You can be a non-union contractor, but if you have a staff, you cannot -- if that staff is not union, you cannot bring them onto the job.
So why would we negotiate something like that? Because that's the way it's always been?
It was a requirement. It also, I think, on a job of this size, with two and a half million dollars a month --
Councilman, if there are such contractors -- and what we've done at the School District is where there were a number of small contractors, we not only insisted that 89 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. they become union, that was part of the deal, but also that their employees become union, that there's no change in workforce.
Well, of course you would do that, because you want everybody to be in your union.
I think it's important that every worker has the protection of a collective bargaining agreement so we don't run up against an employer that says, Well, I don't want to pay you, I can't pay you this healthcare benefit. That's what we have going on. I think having the protection of a collective bargaining agreement is a good thing.
I understand your position, but my concern is that if a person never gets on the job, then none of that matters. You don't have any healthcare benefits or any other things that you all require to make sure that they get, because they don't 90 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. have a job. And I'm trying to figure out a way to get people on the job site that are not union, and if you're saying that -- if a non-union contractor is low bid, comes in, none of the employees are union contractors, these people will automatically go in the union and work on that job site, and you're not going to say, Well, wait a minute, I got people in the hall that have been unemployed, you can't bring this workforce?
What we've done -- I didn't say that, but if that's what you're suggesting --
-- we can look. We've done that before. That's not unprecedented, what you just suggested. That has been done. We did it with our School District agreement.
I want it to be clear. If the bid solicitations are sent out by the Convention Center -- I guess I'm mentioning it to everybody -- 91 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. and a non-union minority or female-owned contractor comes in as the lowest responsible bidder and that contractor wants to bring their entire workforce onto the job site, those people will go into the union immediately as what?
All right. Convention Center, you guys agree with that?
Under the current PLA, I don't believe that that would be the case. It would be a call by the union if -- currently if we signed this PLA, we would have to hire from the 92 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. members of the Philadelphia Building Trades Council. If the Building Trades Council agrees that this non-union bidder can also bring in their own employees and be paid prevailing wage, that could happen.
It's been finalized to the extent that we've sent it to the Building Trades Council. I'm not sure where it stands in there, and it has not been ratified by my Board, so it's not fully executed.
So if the Chairman of the Building Trades is saying that if the lowest responsible bidder is selected as a contractor for the job and that lowest responsible bidder is prepared to sign the PLA, the Project 93 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. Labor Agreement, then the Building Trades would accept that contractor and its members in --
No. I'm not going to say that, because what you just said -- my view is, you characterize this as a small contractor coming in with five or six people to do a specific piece of work. What you're just saying now is that a non-union general contractor from Atlanta can come --
I didn't mention the word "general." I didn't mention the word "Atlanta." I said a qualified responsible contractor responds to a bid solicitation --
What I'm telling you is that we will afford the non-union contractor, who is a subcontractor to the general contractor. That's who --
So you were talking about you only agree if it's a sub? 94 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC.
Point of information. Madam President, point of information.
Mr. Mezzaroba, is it a fact, is it a given that a non-union contractor would even get an opportunity? Would you be sending bids to non-union contractors?
Well, our process has been and based on our statute, we have to open solicit. So what we've done is, we've put it in local newspapers in Philadelphia, Harrisburg and Pittsburgh, as well as the Dodge Report and several other engineering records and several other industry papers.
We have to. 95 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. Whoever qualifies, Councilman, because we pre-qualify, whoever qualifies, based on their finances and their ability to complete the job, will get a package to bid.
What the PLA does is, it ensures that the people that they hire, the workforce that this contractor would come in and hire, would be a union workforce. They're not precluded. It makes it more difficult, but they're not precluded.
I thought I just heard that that non-union contractor would have to become union even beyond hiring union employees.
They'd have to sign the PLA, because they'd have to have an agreement in place with the local Building Trades.
And the 96 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. local Building Trades is not going to sign off on the PLA because they don't want a non-union contractor getting the job. Let's just stop playing with ourselves. All right?
If a non-union contractor is low bid and they're qualified and responsive, the unions, I don't believe, would have an option but to take that non-union contractor and they would sign the PLA, no different than --
You're saying two different things. First you said that you have to get the sign-off from the Building Trades. That implies that they have veto power. Now you're saying you don't require it.
No, no. The original question was if a non-union contractor came in and wanted to use non-union employees, that would require an agreement from the Building Trades. But if we sign the PLA -- 97 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC.
If it's a contractor, the assumption is that the contractor has employees already.
Not all the time. They could be supervisory, but the workforce that will be doing the actual physical work, hanging the Sheetrock, pouring the concrete, laying the rods, all have to --
Well, all I know is that the people that I deal with that are non-union, they have people that work for them.
These people might do work on the side or whatever, but they're not going to go out there and be a responsible bidder and not be able to identify a workforce.
It makes it very difficult for a non-union company to come in --
We make it very difficult. 98 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC.
So what I need to do is see the PLA, that it sounds like to me you're requiring in that PLA that if anybody is the lowest responsible bidder and the Convention Center -- the lowest responsible bidder has the wherewithal to do this job, Building Trades, you have to accept them in the trades as a union workforce, along with their employees or unless it's below five? I'm just trying to get some clarity here. Because if you want to talk about getting people in the union in a significant way and in an expedited 99 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. manner, you can't just depend on apprentices. It's never going to happen. So if you're going to say --
Well, Councilman, I disagree that it's never going to happen. It is happening and it has been happening. It's just unfortunate that --
It hasn't happened. I don't know what history you're looking at. It hasn't happened in the City of Philadelphia. I mean, it just hasn't happened.
The experience that you have had as a Councilperson here, you've seen it happen. You've seen it happen on both stadiums. You've seen it happen on the Post Office.
I was on both oversight committees of the two stadiums.
And we did 100 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. not hit our employee goals.
I sat on both of the oversight -- we got very close to our contract goals, but what we had was minority contractors could not identify the workforce to meet their employee goals. I'm telling you, I sat there, I came to every meeting, so I'm aware of the history. So unless you're prepared to accept another process that gets people into the union above and beyond the apprenticeship process, then you're never going to meet all of these goals. That's all I'm saying. And that's just based off of history. But I won't belabor it. We do have Council. I'd like to see the Project Labor Agreement, Mr. Mezzaroba. 101 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. I'm assuming other members of Council would like to see it also.
We're seeing if we can get it off the BlackBerry. If not, we'll have to send somebody back to the office.
Councilwoman Miller, your light is on. Did you want to be recognized?
Yes. Thank you, Madam President. I wanted to ask Mr. Gillespie before he left, I believe I've been here in City Council now about 13 years and I believe through the stadiums, Craverna and all this stuff, it's extremely frustrating, and maybe we've been misinformed. No one has the data that I'd like to see. You keep saying that we don't have -- that we have been misinformed, that the numbers have been met, but I have never seen that, and I was wondering if -- I'm going to request 102 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. that is it possible for you and, what is it, about -- how many trades is it? 4
Well, there are 8 14 trades. There are 42 local unions in 9 the Building Trades Council. 10
Is it 11 possible that we could continue this 12 discussion so we could better understand 13 and better figure out how we can work 14 together to increase, if needs to be 15 increased, to figure out what is it -- I 16 guess mainly it's around clarification of 17 issues, how can we help begin to deal 18 with the issue of minority participation, 19 how can we help address that female's 20 problem with the dump truck issue, what 21 is it that maybe she's not doing that 22 keeps her from getting contracts, just 23 some way that we can form some committee 24 where we can actually talk, discuss and 25 work together on this. 103 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC.
And I thought maybe you could bring some leadership of some of the unions or all the unions.
I'd be happy to do that. I'd be happy to do that, and they'd be willing to come.
I'd be happy to do that. They would be willing to come, yes.
Okay. And maybe even -- well, that could be a beginning. Then maybe later we could maybe include some of the contractors. And I think it's important. I know that I've helped people get placed, and they have been harassed on the jobs, particularly if it's only one minority on a job with all non-minorities. There have been issues, and it's time for that to stop. This is 2007. It's time to 104 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. stop. We have to move forward in this City. And public means everybody. We share in that, and particularly Philadelphia residents. I can't figure out why that young lady can't get a contract. She's from Philadelphia. She's certainly doing something that I don't know that many people do in terms of females having dump trucks. Why can't she get a contract? That's crazy. With all the millions and billions of dollars worth of work that's going to come through the City, we have to begin to figure out ways to -- you say we don't need to improve because you have numbers. We think we do need to improve because we don't know the numbers. So that's all I wanted to ask, Council President. I'm not going to drag this on, but it's been very frustrating for me over 12 or 13 years of still going over the same thing, contract after contract, project after project. And 105 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. maybe it's improved. I don't know.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Tasco.
I'd like to add to that request that they bring the membership numbers so they could tell us how many minorities are members of these unions.
I'll request it. I know I don't have them. They certainly have them.
Well, how do you know we don't know the numbers if you don't ask?
Okay. 106 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. We'll have the meeting.
Councilman Clarke, do you want to wait for the --
All right. The Chair recognizes Councilman DiCicco. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Madam President, were you going to be taking a break right after this, or no?
I think that we've had Sister sitting here since 9:30 to give an invocation. I know she said it's quite an education for her, but she's going to have to be out of here by 3 o'clock. So I thought that what we could do is conclude our public hearing 107 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. and public meeting of the Committee of the Whole, have Sister deliver the invocation, since we all need some guidance here, and we would break for 6 minutes, come back, do caucus and 7 Council, and it would give the staff 8 enough time to move the table and do 9 whatever has to be done. 10 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: With that, 11 I appreciate that. I just have a brief 12 comment. I will be withdrawing the 13 amendment that I introduced on Tuesday. 14 Having said that, I still want the record 15 to reflect that I have not yet received any correspondence from the Governor that he is committed to releasing the funds for this Convention Center expansion and that his lack of communication for the better part of a year with me is insulting. And for too many years, we have allowed the Governor to tell everyone exactly what they want to hear, without any follow-through, and I, for one, am tired of hearing his promises, 108 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. but for some reason he won't answer the question on will you release the funds for this project, which leads me to believe that it's not that time sensitive, because I think that there are a number of people in this body who believe that if we don't get this done today, the project will go away, and that's not the case. And because of the Governor, this project, as I said a couple days ago, has almost doubled, and that's not fair to the taxpayers. I am going to ask that this body -- that I will not ask for this bill 16 to be brought up. I will ask that this bill be held until Mr. Gillespie provides this body with the information and data and materials that we've asked him for in terms of the number of people in the unions, the number of minorities and women who are in these unions. I don't think it's appropriate for us to move on this, on these amendments in particular to reach certain goals, which I do not 109 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. believe are attainable. That's it.
Mr. Gillespie, I don't know if you heard Councilman DiCicco.
I know you were busy back there in conversation with that very attractive young woman.
But he didn't answer my questions either. He wouldn't answer --
Councilman DiCicco is making a request that Council not consider this bill until such time as you provide Councilmembers 110 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. with the requests that they have apparently consistently made today to tell us how many minority are in each of the unions. How long would it take you to make a few phone calls to get us that information?
How about next, let's see, June? COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Fine by me. I'll wait until January.
I don't know. I mean, I don't know how you get this information. I could call and ask, Send your rosters down. To who? To the President of City Council? I don't know whether the unions have a racial breakdown themselves. I don't know that.
I do not know 111 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. that. I don't know whether they have it or not. I honestly don't know that. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: That goes to the heart of this whole discussion today. And, you know, this is our last opportunity, probably one of the last opportunities we will have.
Point of information. Again, how do you reach the goals? Because if you call for this and -- if you call Jane Brown, how do you know whether she's black, white, Asian or Mexican? How do you know? How do you meet the goals?
I don't know that they have that. I will try to get that for you.
We're going to hear a little more testimony on this bill. I feel very badly that Sister has been waiting. Though, she's very comfortable back there. And then we're going to recess. In the interim, I would 112 12/6/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070994, ETC. ask you to please make phone calls today.