trees will be planted i did at the time i don't remember right now would you agree with me that
it's roughly on the order of 15, I believe?
Yes, yeah.
Okay, thank you very much.
I have no further questions, board.
Thank you, Ms. Kissenchant.
You're welcome.
I have a next witness, if the board is ready.
Yes, please.
Okay, my next witness is Mr. Hilary Langer.
And she's available to speak, Chair.
Mr. Langer, please spell your full name
when you get on and i'll swear you win can you hear me okay yes please spell your full name
hillary h-i-l-a-r-y langer l-a-n-g-e-r you swear a firm to tell the truth the whole truth nothing
but the truth i do thank you mr bonnie thank you uh mr langer good morning what title do you hold
at the East Falls Community Council. I am chair of the East Falls Community Council's Learning
Committee. What is your occupation? I am a registered architect in Pennsylvania and some
other jurisdictions. Also a member of the AIA, American Institute of Architects. But board and
Mr. Bonnie, I'm willing to stipulate to Mr. Langer and his expertise. We don't need to walk through
qualifications. Thank you. Okay. I do have one other question, though, in this category. Do you
have experience with residential development? Yes. Okay. Do you have experience with cost
estimating and determining feasibility? Yes. In the course of my work, I do deal with cost
estimates, cost estimates on a daily basis, really from the review of budgets for
proposals, GMPs, guaranteed maximum price. Okay, thank you. And also review and approval of
change orders during construction. Shifting gears, Mr. Lanker, how do you look at
slopes or steep slopes as an architect? You know, I think particularly in this neighborhood,
I see them as an asset. They can inspire creative, interesting, and very dramatic site
layouts. That's a feature of this neighborhood. And one reason why I moved into this neighborhood
because of the hilly landscape. What do you mean, asset? What do you mean? I'm sorry, I cut you off.
What do you mean by asset? Well, East Falls, Maniank, and Roxburgh, it's a very hilly part of
Philadelphia, uniquely defined by large hills, rocky outcroppings, and as you know, previously
occupied by a lot of many water driven mills and streams we're used to walking up hills we cycle
up hills we park on different elevations my house I come in at street level and I go to the back and
I'm looking down 15 feet onto my backyard and these are kind of natural features of our of our
neighborhood i'm showing some pictures of your neighborhood and how it um involves steep slubs
just going to scroll through a couple pages what's the one we're looking at here this is actually
elsewhere in lower northwest is that correct um yes this is actually uh one one of the accesses
of the uh adjacent proximity to the site um schoolhouse lane um and uh it shows an embankment
there between the parking area and the lane. I'm going to show the other side of it, so
I'm going to show the other side of it. So tell us just briefly, what are we looking at? Is this
tell us just briefly what are we looking at.
the second floor here? Mr. Bonney, I'm going to have to object. I mean, Mr. Langer can certainly
testify to all the projects in the neighborhood if we want, but we all know that there are steep
slopes in East Falls. I fail to see any relevance, Chairman, with regard to what other projects look
like. Certainly there are other projects and other developments in the neighborhood, but that's not
relevant to ours and whether we meet the steep slope i tend to agree with you i mean anyone
knows anything about roxborough knows it's very steep right but but the point but the point we're
making mr chairman is that not only is it steep but that architecture can coexist with the steep
slopes as is shown on the current page you could show that's an example but i'm sure
if you can limit the number of examples that would be helpful. Okay this is the last one what
are we looking at here Mr. Langer is this another well go ahead. This is a bridge entry the main
entry into an apartment building in Mennyonk and this shows a connection across an old mill
development where actually Ridge Avenue up on the right actually looks down on the roof of this
development uh but he is a a a development that is a a unique to our kind of neighborhood and and
is you know can become the the kind of feature and defining character of any development we do on
on a slope such as 4401 okay so skipping over a little bit um i want to show you the base plan
um which is uh for steep slopes this is from the applicants exhibits this area in the green
is the steep slope of greater than 25 on the subject property change excuse me the the picture
is didn't change there we go oh do you see it now yes okay um before we get into your bases
and your reasons, please tell us your headline or your conclusion. Can this parcel be developed
reasonably and still avoid the steep slopes? Yes, yeah. Okay, well, can you elaborate briefly?
So there's sufficient area on this site that you're looking at right now, above and below the main steep slope area that was previously occupied by 30 units that were demolished off the site.
So basically, the area at the back, the area in the middle, and the area down there on Ridge Avenue are all three zones that can be, are available for development.
okay and then generally also thank you and then also generally do you do you know before we get
into your reasons your specific reasons just as a matter of conclusion do you think that there
is a hardship here no i don't believe so okay um uh you know that you know the steep slopes here
It can be completely avoided with a different scheme.
But even if you needed to impact them, there are minimum variance options that would be in order.
But there's definitely no need to eliminate all the steep slopes on the site.
The applicant talks about the need to be, as you remember from the first hearing or two,
the applicant talked about the need to be quote-unquote cm or the desire to be cmx3 commensurate
and points out that they are still not using all of the available far um what is your reaction to
that well you know i disagree with that you you can't just look at base zoning uh you you know
you have to look at it at the site holistically and the entire zoning code including the
environmental prohibitions, such as the steep slope provision. The FAR is an upper limit that's
provided. It's not a requirement. You're familiar with the CMX3 provisions of the zoning cut?
Yes. Does CMX3 allow for multifamily dwellings that would read or appear?
Does CMX3 allow for multifamily dwellings that would read or appear as townhomes, townhouses?
Yes, CMX3 has a lot of different uses that can go into it.
And multifamily would certainly look like a traditional apartment house, or they can be designed to look like townhomes, whether it's attached row or in clusters.
Does CMX3 allow for multiple buildings on a single lot?
Does CMX3 allow for other uses other than residential?
Yes, there's a very handy matrix issued by City Planning and Zoning.
You could have an adult care facility.
I think there was a previous scheme to build a 100-unit independent living facility.
you could build a child care center you could build a community care center office building
grocery store hotel a community garden i mean there's there's a lot of different options
but let's stick to residential for the time being are there examples of nearby residential
types of buildings that are different and more modest than that proposed by a tapco
and I'm going to show a document here
that shows the subject site in the middle
and what are we looking at to the bottom left?
The roof of a car.
There we go.
I'm sorry.
Do you see now the HL3?
Right.
So actually, you know, looking above and below the site,
Right above overlooking the site is the hilltop development, which is, I think it's Condominium Association, I think. I'm not sure.
And then down on the bottom there, you have the Overlook project, which is 13 townhomes nestled in behind some other existing townhomes.
um so that's an example of uh some prototypes that could absolutely be developed uh on the site
okay and still large entirely if not largely avoid the steep slopes uh yes you've explored
different ways to uh well oh the next the next one is um showing a little different angle which
shows on the right-hand side the Penrose building. Is this the 50-unit senior housing living above
one floor of retail? There's a little bit of a lag. Okay, sorry. Pictures change over.
Well, you're familiar with the, Mr. Chair, can you see HL4? Yes, there we go. Okay.
So you see the Penrose building on the right-hand side.
I think we all agree it's a 50-unit senior housing building above one floor of retail.
That's right.
Yeah, it's a 50-unit senior housing development with commercial on the lower level.
Okay, is that awesome?
It's a great concept.
It's something that could fit on this side along Ridge Avenue.
okay um let's get into your um you've you've explored as an architect different ways to
develop this property let me get your um document up here may take a minute that
you've explored different ways to develop this property and avoid the steep slopes either
entirely or with much less impact than the atapco proposal is that correct that's that's right
Okay, let's look at the options that you've generated. Can you see the page that says conceptual option number one?
Okay, first off, you've done some measurements here, and I'd like to confirm with you the measurements that you've measured the square footage of the steep slopes, and that the lower band, I'm going to make this a little bit bigger for the chairman and the members of the board.
that the lower band of steep slopes is 2,245 square feet and that the upper band of the steep slopes is 11,265 square feet.
And can you confirm that my math is correct in that the lower band represents
Math is correct in that the lower band represents 2.7% of the full property, and then the upper band represents 13.7% of the full property. Is that correct?
That's right.
Okay. I'm going to plow through this diagram as quickly as I can for the board's benefit and ask you, Mr. Langer, if I'm doing it correctly.
So you are showing in purple what you describe here in this box as a 30-unit apartment building.
there is a smaller rectangle in the extreme corner that shows the where the area of the
first floor retail is um but all three levels above it are residential and also the left-hand
side is four levels of residential so i think in this zoning district you know you have to have 50
percent of your first floor with with retail and that's sort of what you've done here
and also so for 30 units you've you've put a driveway that goes a one-way driveway that
enters onto Merrick right where my where this arrow is goes all the way through the site and
then discharges onto Ridge Avenue and that am I correct that on either side of that driveway
you've situated 30 uh 30 parking spaces is that correct that's right okay now i don't want to
take a step back for a second um this is just an idea is that what you're putting out here
yeah this this is just a one strategical approach um not necessarily design it's one of what could
be many okay was this was this hypothetical we'll call it whatever you want presented uh to the
developer at any of the rco meetings no it was not we're seeing this for the first time yes right
well on saturday but yes yes um and you have here situated uh a um a bridge to connect the
parking area to the second floor of the building is that correct that's right and so let me pardon
the interruption again i i understand i think i understand where you're going mr bonnie that
you're going to demonstrate to the board that there are alternatives to the plan that's being
presented for us to look at and decide on wouldn't this be better to have this conversation
with the rco i mean we're not going to we're not going to be the we're not going to be planning
we're not i'm not going to sit here and say this is the plan that you should do no of course not
yes i'm happy to respond to that no and this isn't we're pointing out here for the board
and we only have a couple more pages but we're pointing out here for the board that um the
the steep slopes for which they're seeking a variance do not present a hardship to the
reasonable development of this property. And so we are showing here an idea, a strategic idea
to demonstrate to the board that the applicant has not met its burden, that these steep slopes
are in fact a hardship and that they, you know, need to be impacted, certainly to the extent that
the developer seeks to impact them. So that's the nature of what we're doing here. We're not trying
to negotiate an open court here about this is what we think they should build. That's not what we're
saying. I understand your explanation. Chairman, if I may quickly, just because this has been a,
this is now a third hearing. I'm happy to stipulate that, you know, there are a dozen
different ways or more that this could be built. The board chair has already identified that we
could build significantly taller. We could build a much larger project than offering two. That
would also be by right. However, there was expert testimony regarding the disturbance of steep
slopes, and that testimony was backed up by the planning commission stating that any disturbance
of steep slopes during construction, footers, foundations, anything does trigger a violation
of this zoning code. So even just putting this bridge across does not, you know, clear this
issue. So yes, there are dozens and dozens of ways I can ask Mr. Langer, and I'm happy to,
all of these issues, or we can stipulate that there are lots of different ways that this could
be built. However, there's extensive testimony already in the record that we could build much
However, there's extensive testimony already in the record that we could build much larger as well, and that that's not the project in front of the board.
I'd like to plow through. I think we're making good time. It's only 1135 and we're nearing, you know, we're getting to the end of this. May I continue?
Please do.
okay so in your opinion mr langer would this bridge involve any alteration of the steep slope
or would you be going entirely over it no we'd be going entirely over okay and if you did and
if you did need to put a column or a post um it would be a smidgen i know that's not a technical
term but a smidgen of variance yeah a smidgen or or you know that support could be uh completely
off the steep slope um you know that's an engineering solution thank you uh just to round
out this exhibit you're showing the penrose building here just for purposes of um you know
content comparison that maybe it could look like something like this albeit a bit smaller
and on the right hand side you're showing something that we're going to see a little
later this morning which is from a pha document showing a little diagram i want to go to the next
page um and i'll go to the next page quickly here um this is a slight variation uh am i correct
um it's i'm i'm sure it's loading okay it's option two this is a slight variation correct
yeah i'm not seeing it yet don't about anyone else okay with a little help from xfinity you'll
see it let me know when you see it i'll i'm gonna
here we go okay this is a 50 unit apartment building it's a little bit more elongated than
the one we just saw that's right and you're showing still 30 parking spaces which is code
compliant is that correct uh that's right but you have a note yeah with an option to put additional
space is up there on the upper part of the lot. Okay, so you have a note on the top that says
parking can be added on rear terrace to get even more parking spaces if you want. And that would
require either a bridge or a small alteration for a bridge over this larger band? Some steps.
Okay, let me know when option three populates on your screen.
am i correct that option three is yet another variation right that utilizes the rear of the site
for development okay so so you're showing stays away from the steep slope at the high end okay
so you're showing a 40 unit apartment building in the back that's right are you showing are you
So you're showing a driveway that goes under that building, and that is there parking for each of those units under that building off of that driveway.
That's right.
I'm going to show option four, which is the last option that you've shown.
um and this you've shown you've titled you've titled it the subtitle is minimum variance on
steep slope and and i think am i correct that the major change here right here we go
that the major difference here is this orange area and this orange area is a alteration of