Thank you very much. 106 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc.
Yes. Thank you, sir. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Any other questions? (No response.) COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you again. We're through. Thank you. Next, Christine Young-Gertz. Did Vince Fenerty leave? (He's in the hallway.) COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: When the Parking Authority tows a vehicle for being either in a tow zone or parked illegally for whatever, is it ticketed before they tow it? (Audience member talking without microphone.) COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: You can't tow it until you ticket it? (Audience member talking without microphone.) COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you.
Do you want to get that on the record? 107 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Maybe you can testify yes, no, whatever to that question.
On the record. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Come on up and identify yourself. (Witness approached witness table.) COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: So my question is, before the Parking Authority tows a vehicle for whatever reason, whether it's in front of a hydrant, whether it's parked at a tow zone, whatever, does the Parking Authority, do they tow the car first or does it need to be ticketed before it's towed?
No. A ticket -- COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Identify yourself for the record.
I'm sorry. Edward Thornton, Director of Parking Management with the Philadelphia Parking Authority. 108 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: In order for the car to be towed.
In order for the vehicle to be towed, a ticket would have to be issued to the vehicle prior to towing. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: And you do not tow unless it has been ticketed?
No. 11 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: By either the Parking Authority or the Police?
By either. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you. Thank you. Yes, ma'am. Please identify yourself.
Good afternoon. My name is Christine Young-Gertz. I'll spell the last name. It's capital Y-O-U-N-G, capital G-E-R-T-Z. I'm with the -- I'm the Government Affairs Director for the Apartment Association of Greater Philadelphia. Thank you very much for 109 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. allowing me to testify today, and it was rather short notice and I appreciate your accommodating me on such short notice. Just a little bit about the Apartment Association. It's a trade association whose members are owners and managers and developers of apartment communities, the larger apartment communities, many of which throughout the City have private parking lots for the use of their tenants. We have approximately 150 members and we represent approximately 140,000 apartment units. That means 140,000 homes. And I don't have hard and fast statistics. I think it's about a third of which would be Philadelphians. We represent the five-county area. I'm here today to oppose just one little piece of this bill. I understand the great difficulty rogue towing companies who flagrantly violate Philadelphia law, the problems they cause for everyone, and it's a little difficult 110 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. to follow the wrenching story of one particular tenant who's obviously had a very, very difficult time, and I'm very sorry that happened to her as well. But I have to point out that most apartment building owners -- and my association, we stress responsible property management and adherence to all laws. I have to point out that most apartment building owners with private parking lots in Philadelphia will have a very difficult time getting unauthorized cars towed, illegally parked cars towed from their properties if the provision that requires ticketing first goes into effect. It's going to be a crucial -- well, getting cars towed from parking lots in a timely manner is a protection for the tenants. And while I understand the bad apples and the aberrations and the horrendous stories that people go through, the fact is that private parking lots, apartment parking lots, have to routinely and frequently get illegally parked cars 111 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. towed from their properties. Typical scenarios are it's and o'clock in the morning and somebody takes advantage of the parking lot in an apartment complex and tenants come home and they can't find a place to park in their own homes. It happens a lot in areas where the apartment house, the apartment building, is adjacent to some public facility, SEPTA particularly. It happens a lot where folks go off on their daily commutes having parked their cars illegally in an apartment complex and taking advantage of a free spot, and tenants are left out in the cold, and frequently that means very unsafe situations for many tenants. That's just the one piece, and I would urge that of the bill that I'm arguing about, I would urge that some language be crafted to carve out the situations where places like private apartment owners have to protect their tenants and their tenants' rights and 112 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. they have to do it in a timely manner. I really appreciate the sincere efforts on the part of the Police Department, the Parking Authority and License and Inspections to responsibly look at this and work something out where they, with all good intentions, want to respond in a timely manner to get cars ticketed. Other folks have testified and there's been discussion already about the financial burdens and the priorities that necessarily have to be a part of any decision to dispatch someone to give a ticket on an illegally parked car, and in the best of times, that would strain any departments' resources, I understand that.
I get all that, and it's for that reason alone that I would respectfully submit that the language has to be tweaked to allow for apartment communities or other private facilities to be able to protect their tenants and their own property in a timely manner. 113 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. If they have to get tickets beforehand, it's going to virtually shut down any kind of towing, I think, that will be able to take place legitimately. That's the one point I wanted to make. I really appreciate your time, and I'd be happy to discuss or answer any questions. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you. Thank you for your testimony. You're under the assumption that it's going to take something that is untimely or not as timely. I'm trying to figure out what, in your opinion, would be a timely manner in which the vehicle that was improperly parked on one of the facilities in which your group owns a property, what do you consider to be timely?
Well, in situations -- COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: And let me just finish. There's another piece to that. Explain to me, explain to us what the general procedure is for having a car 114 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. removed. Does a call from the manager of the building get placed to the towing company or is it a towing company that just would rove through the parking lot to see if there is a vehicle or vehicles that do not have proper ID?
It's my understanding from my members that, generally speaking, it could happen both ways, that an apartment complex owner, manager would have a contract with a towing company, and hopefully a legitimate, law-abiding towing company, and they would call when the need arises to tow an illegally parked car. Other times there are parking stickers, and I do understand that many owners have contracts with hopefully legitimate, law-abiding towing companies on a routine basis -- COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: If they were all doing it legitimately, we wouldn't be here today.
We wouldn't 115 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. be here. (Continued) -- on a routine basis, would drive through the lot and look for the valid parking stickers that are issued by the apartment complex and take actions if they don't find it. I do sympathize so with the story that was just conveyed to you prior to my testimony. That sort of thing hopefully, with responsible property management, would not be allowed to happen, and hopefully the problems ensued would be addressed in a little more responsible way. And I certainly don't condone -- COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: I know you'd have to go back to your members, but something on the line of what I mentioned earlier, and I'm not suggesting that an hour is the appropriate time, but if we had some sort of a time sequence where the property owner or the manager notified the Police or the Parking Authority that there's a vehicle parked 116 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. on their property that shouldn't be there because it's not -- doesn't have a permit to park there.
What would be a reasonable time? Yeah, I would have to poll my members. Just given the testimony that came earlier about the difficulty in nailing that down -- and, of course, I as a citizen as well don't want the Police to be forced in any situation where there are more pressing concerns certainly to respond to. It seems to me I would really urge that the language be tweaked to carve out an exception for private apartment -- lots in private residence. In the alternative, if this bill were to become law as is without such an amendment, I would offer the services of my association to work out -- to work on maybe a task force situation or whatever to come to a reasonable idea of what timely response would be. Perhaps we can work together to look at 117 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. all sides of it and consider the angles. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Well, Councilman Kenney, as you know, is the sponsor of the bill and that's something you would need to discuss with him. Questions? Councilman.
When they're done, when the members of the Committee are finished. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Councilman Greenlee.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ma'am, I certainly understand your concern, but I guess I have to take issue with a couple words you used. Early on in your testimony you used the word "aberration," and I've certainly heard enough over the years -- and I said this early in the hearing. I don't know if you were here. It's not an aberration. There's a lot of it going on. Now, there's a lot of legitimate 118 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. companies, but unfortunately, when there's enough illegitimate companies, action has to be taken, not just on this, but on other things, because there's not enough control. And the second thing is, you said carving out private apartment units. I think that's one of the places it happens a lot, again, depending on who the apartment owners hire to be the tower. So I think carving it out, you're carving out also a lot of the people that have the problem, in my opinion.
The rest of the bill does a great deal of good to further regulate the industry and make sure that legitimate, law-abiding towing companies are the ones that operate in the City. Maybe "aberration" was too strong a word, but if we tie the hands of every apartment complex owner who's got to frequently and routinely rid themselves of illegally parked cars, we're not protecting most of the tenants. 119 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. And it's hard to minimize. I certainly don't want to minimize the difficulties that perhaps frequently arise, but I think in the routine and frequent operation of a typical apartment business, if we could not cast such a wide net to prevent managers from protecting all tenants, I think that's what I'm suggesting.
All right. But I will just quickly add that the Police and Parking Authority both testified that because they are very concerned about this issue and they've heard about it, they are going to be as proactive as they can be and --
I fully appreciate their intentions. It's just in the best of times, I know that's going to be difficult.
Lots of things are difficult. Okay. Thank you. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Councilman Kenney. 120 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc.
Thank you. Thank you for your testimony. Are most of the members of your association in Philadelphia? Do they have private surface lots, I guess, adjacent to their apartment complexes?
So they're not street spaces, they're generally spaces next to or across the street from an apartment building?
In general, what this bill would apply to would be private parking lots.
We're 121 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. addressing the problems that private parking lots would have.
Two questions. Number one, I realize there's an expense associated with the first suggestion. A lot of surface lots that service folks like that, you have a key card and a gate and the gate goes up and you go in and then the tow truck guy don't go in and no one who doesn't -- shouldn't park there goes in. I think that may be a better way to protect the tenants in that particular building, is that the only people who could park in there are the people who have the key.
Sure. Lots of apartment communities have that, but I would venture that many apartment communities who offer decent, affordable housing don't have that.
That's one suggestion. The other question is, do your members get complaints routinely from their tenants about the story that 122 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. was told here today, which represents lots of other folks that have gone through that? Does the management of your members get complaints from their residents about being illegally towed?
To my knowledge, I don't know if that is a huge problem. If they did get that sort of complaint, if a tenant were to come to them and say this is ridiculous --
The question I have for your folks, for the parking lot owners and all the other stuff is, why are these folks hired in the first place? I mean, they have an ongoing bad reputation, and it's been publicized in numerous newspaper accounts, TV undercover operations. These are the guys who are constantly the violators, but why would you contract 123 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. with someone who has had a history of abusing folks?
Well, again, our association stresses responsible property management, complete compliance with the laws. So I would -- I don't have any hard and fast facts to give you about my members and who they hire, but we would certainly and I would venture to guess that most of my members, being responsible property managers, would deal with legitimate companies and not hire the ones that clearly are problems. I don't -- I can't promise you who is hiring who, but --
-- we certainly would stress doing the job properly, and that's really what we're talking about, is we have to do the job properly on an ongoing basis.
I'm sure you don't know of every arrangement, but 124 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. do you have any knowledge of what the financial arrangements are between the property management and the towing company? Is it a case-by-case? I mean, is it whatever they tow, they tow and get or is there financial contractual arrangements?
I'm sorry, I don't. I could look into that and get back to you on it.
Do the property managers pay the tower to be of service to them? Does the tower pay the property manager to have the contract? MS. YOUNG-GERTZ? It's a contractual arrangement and I could look into the typical details.
I'd be interested in knowing what the financial arrangement is, because obviously the financial incentive is to tow as many cars as you can. That's the financial incentive. Whether they're legally towed cars or illegally towed cars, the 125 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. financial incentive is that. So I'd be interested in knowing if your membership and how they contract with towing companies.
And the incentive of doing the job responsibly from the property management side is to make sure to protect the tenants and make sure the tenants have the spaces they're entitled to to park. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: We all agree on that.
But as we heard today, once the sign goes up and the person gets illegally towed and they go into the property manager and say, Hey, they towed my car, Well, I have nothing to do with that, it's between the tower and you. That's not protection of tenants either.
If I were involved in any sort of discussions between a tenant and a property manager or if a property manager used the 126 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. educational facilities and resources of my association to address that problem, I would encourage the property manager to protect that tenant and to look into it and, again, handle it in a responsible way and, again, encouraging complete compliance. And the bottom line for any responsible landlord is, they're going to do that anyway, they're going to protect their tenants. Their bottom line depends on a happy tenant, and they want to deliver a good product. That's what I would emphasize to my members.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you. Any other questions from this Committee for this witness? (No response.) COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you, ma'am. We appreciate your testimony.
Thank you very much. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: The next 127 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. panel, Mr. Anthony Boyle, K&A Salvage; Mr. Richard Antoacci, Philadelphia Towing and Transport; and Mr. Joe Parente, Wharton's (sic) Towing. (Witnesses approached witness table.)
Good afternoon, Councilmembers. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Good afternoon.
My name is Joseph Parente. I am the owner of Morton Towing and Recovery. My company tows stolen and abandoned vehicles for the City of Philadelphia. I'm here as a representative of the Philadelphia Towers and Salvors Association to testify in favor of Bill 100213 amending Section 20 9-605. It is our understanding that these amendments will help to make the towing industry more responsible and accountable in the towing of a vehicle. It is also important that the towing of a 128 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. vehicle is fair to the consumer as well as the towers. Having signs, fees, location, hours of operation availability is imperative for the retrieving of a vehicle. In the towing of stolen, abandoned, repossessed or an accident vehicle, the proper authorities are notified. This is done for several reasons: To ensure that the vehicle is not in stolen status. In some of the above instances, vehicles are ticketed as to the violations which authorize the towers to be able to remove that vehicle. And also so that there is a record where the vehicle was towed from and where it is going to be stored. We feel that this bill will not hinder the legitimate towing of the vehicles, but will ensure a better standard in the procedures for all towers. Thank you, Council. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you. Any questions, comments? 129 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. (No response.) COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you. Are you testifying, sir, or are you just coming along for the ride? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I'm along for the ride. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you. We appreciate your testimony. Next panel, Rob Zuritsky, Parkway Corporation; Harvey Spear, E-Z Park; Janine Bauer, Szaferman, Lakind, Blumstein and Blader; and David Farber, property owner. (Witnesses approached witness table.)
Mr. Chairman and members of the panel, thank you for allowing us to testify. First thing I want to say is, I also am a member of HAPCO, which is the largest property owners, apartment owners association, and I'm authorized on their behalf to voice their opposition for the same reason that the Apartment Association did. 130 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. So if there's any further questions -- I know a little bit about -- she's the attorney for the Apartment Association. I'm on the Board of HAPCO and I'm authorized through the President and through the counsel to explain HAPCO. HAPCO has a number of low- and moderate-income members and they provide housing for low and moderate income, in addition to middle class. And they have on-site parking and they have parking adjacent to their buildings, and I could tell you that in a case of emergency or something like that in Germantown Avenue where there's an apartment complex, there is no way -- I already spoke to Mr. Fenerty from the Parking Authority. I said, What happens at 2:00 in the morning if somebody is blocked in and a pregnant mother has to get out or somebody -- an emergency situation? He admitted there's nobody to come and give a ticket at that time. So I just wanted to -- if 131 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. Councilman Kenney would like to ask any questions regarding the Apartment Association, I can answer for HAPCO.
We can give a pregnant mother an exemption, I'm sure. That shouldn't be a problem.
I don't think it's all revolving around pregnant mothers, so --
Well, it's not only that. Suppose you're going home to go to sleep one night at 2:00 in the morning and you can't get a Parking Authority or a policeman?
Mr. Chairman, why don't we -- before we get into a dialogue, we should do the testimony.
I just wanted to offer that testimony on behalf of the Apartment Association. As far as the parking 132 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. association, Rob Zuritsky and myself will give our testimony.
Good afternoon. My name is Robert Zuritsky. I'm President of Parkway Corporation, an 80-year family-owned parking management, real estate development business proudly headquartered two blocks down the street, Broad and Race. Thank you for the opportunity to discuss this issue. Regarding this bill, I have to express my company's concerns about the new requirement that cars need to be ticketed by the Police or Parking Authority before a towing company will be allowed to tow a car. My company now operates pay-by-space or 19 pay-and-display open parking lots. We hope to park 370,000 parkers on those lots this year. For customers who forget to pay our kiosks, we issue them tickets from our hand-held device similar to what the Philadelphia Parking Authority uses. Our system automatically records the 133 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. car's description and license plates. After three violations, we tow the car. We call for a towing company. Parkway is now averaging around 50 cars towed per year from our facilities, a very low number of cars compared to how many cars that we are parking. So the system is working. We have used this system for over four years since we have had these kiosk machines on our parking lots, but we have also been towing cars, problem cars, off of our parking lots for 40 years and we've never had a problem. Though the concept of having another penalty, a $50 parking ticket, to enforce our own parking regulations is intriguing, my concern is we will have to depend on a third party, the Police or Philadelphia Parking Authority, to work with us. It was noted recently in an article last week about the Philadelphia Police will no longer respond to car accidents. We are sure this new responsibility of writing a ticket for 134 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. parking violators on our parking lots is not something that the Police will respond to, and we don't think that they should spend their time responding to that kind of an issue. So that leaves the Philadelphia Parking Authority. Now, they may have the tools and staff to respond to our needs, but the fact that we only need one tow per week -- and some of them are, as Harvey noted, late nights and weekend when the PPA may not even have people out -- we have some anxiety about them supporting us. The parking industry in Philadelphia has been devastated by the recession. In the first year that the new 33 percent parking tax went into effect, all parking revenues for the City fell $30 million, or eight percent. On top of that, we had to pay an additional $12 million in new parking taxes. This has had a catastrophic impact on our industry, as we already were the highest taxed industry in the City before the 135 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. increase. Many companies have had to make painful layoffs, and for my company, as an example, had our first layoffs in the first time in our 80-year history. My concern is that this will further burden our industry by taking away the threat of towing from our facilities and reduce revenues yet again. There are licenses and laws already in place to punish bad towing operators who don't follow the rules. And we just -- going through this process, we heard about one of the towing operators that we use, we heard that they have some problems and we're now investigating probably leaving them, but we didn't know about their problems before, and we read the papers all the time. We suggest that these rules be enforced, the rules that are in place, or if other rules need to be put into place, let them be enforced before passing additional ones. This new law is meant to hurt those bad towers, but by taking 136 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. away our flexibility to tow scofflaws, you risk damaging good businesses that are complying with the existing laws and causing no problems.
I would encourage City Council to encourage that they use the enforcement that they already have on the books and go after the bad towing companies and again -- or maybe exempt public parking companies who do keep good records like we do. Whenever we do tow a car once a week, we issue the information -- we give the information to the parking towing company, so they have it as a record that they have had at least three strikes on our facilities. So we are keeping good records, like the Parking Authority. So we hope that we can work and we can work to either change the laws that's going in or work with the existing laws that are in place. So thank you. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you. One quick question, 137 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. Mr. Zuritsky. The automatic system that you have for ticketing, after the third offense a ticket is issued, the tow company is called. Is that standard in the industry in Philadelphia?
The system that we use on our parking lots is similar to the ones that are a little less confusing than the Parking Authority ones, but it's basically the same concept, and we've been using those for four years. The kiosks -- COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: I'm not talking about the kiosks. I'm talking about the system in which you begin to issue violations to those who have not put the money in the kiosk or whatever.
These are available to -- where I was going -- what I was going to say is, not too many of the parking companies have implemented the kiosk systems on their facilities yet. And, again, parking operators that have -- that collect ticketing -- you 138 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. know, a lot of them are set up where you get a ticket on the way in and there's a gate and there's a cashier, so there is no towing issue for those people, or garages.
There still may be towing issues. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Let Rob finish.
Just a point of information. Mr. Spear said that there still may be towing. Why would that be?
Because we may not have a system like Parkway has, but we do keep records, and we don't tow the first time either.
Some of our locations that are not gated but that are ticketed.
High rise, structured parking? 139 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc.
I just want to make -- COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: I think I'm trying to get --
There's no 9 structured garages involved in this conversation, correct?
There's no 16 emergency, you can wait for a ticket for that one. That's not --
We're saying on some of our locations, our surface locations, you may have cars who were blocked in by other cars and they'll come in and walk away, they won't pay, they'll pull in and block another car. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Are those 140 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. automated parking garages?
I'm not talking about automated. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Well, if you have attendants and cars are being parked and someone's blocking another vehicle in, wouldn't that be --
I wish it was foolproof. We do have attendants. We have an attendant at Broad and Vine and a car may pull in at 13th and Vine and run away without paying and block somebody in.
-- we addressed it in the legislation through an amendment that allows them to relocate that car. It's in there.
The danger of that is that what if we do see that, we wait for the Police to come, the car -- COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: He said 141 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. you can just relocate it.
You can get your tow truck guy who is waiting across the street anyway to come and move the car.
That's where I disagree. First of all, to answer your question, this is standard for our company. There aren't too many companies -- I don't think there are too many other companies that use this or use kind of the honor system like we have. So it is really kind of -- it's not really that big of an issue yet in our industry. It is for my company because we do this and we have this system set up. The issue is that we do not have tow companies waiting, on our situations, on private parking lots. They only tow from our facilities when we call them, and they are not waiting. They take traditionally 20 minutes to an hour to respond to us when we call for a 142 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. tow. That's typical. So the concern, again, is waiting for the Parking Authority to respond to us. We're not natural allies in this world of parking to begin with. But let's just say that they do respond, and Vince -- this is the first time I got to talk to Vince about this. He said -- I asked him how long it would take to respond. He said, you know, to 40 minutes. So now we take 12 the risk of losing -- of opening this 13 door wider. Just like it sounds to me 14 like there might have been good tow 15 companies and they're not being policed. 16 Now they're bad tow companies. My 17 concern is that we have good customers, 18 and if we can't police our customers, 19 they'll become bad customers, and 20 that's -- this is the only punishment that we have, is the towing. That's the third strike and that's all we have.
But, see, I think -- again, I don't mean to interrupt, but since we started this 143 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. conversation. If you're giving them two free passes anyway --
We give them a ticket, and they are responsible to pay not only the full day amount, plus a $10 fine.
So, I mean, this will actually be better for you because you could have them towed the first time and you won't have to worry 144 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. about it.
I still don't think I would do that. I still think -- I don't want to -- see, that's the thing. We don't want to -- I don't want to piss off good customers. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Let me interrupt. They're not going to come and tow a car out of any of your garages unless you call them anyway.
I want to make sure the discussion is clear. We're not talking about high rise -- we're not talking about structured parking here. This is a surface lot problem, correct?
I just want to say there are times that we don't have the luxury of waiting for a tow truck. Right now the law is sufficient. We call a tow truck, they call the Police, we have a record. We don't tow until after three times. The tow -- 145 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Excuse me. On average, how long does it take for the tow truck to arrive after you make the call?
It could take 15, minutes. And if you have an irate 8 customer that's blocked in in one of the 9 lots for whatever reason it is -- and 10 it's happened to us -- 11 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: I agree. 12 I think the person who blocked them in 13 should be either towed or relocated. I 14 don't think there's a disagreement with 15 anybody on that one. 16
See, the problem 17 that we have is, what if it happens at 2 18 o'clock in the morning and what if it 19 happens in one of our locations that's a 20 remote location? It's already been said that they won't -- the Police won't come out for -- COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Is there that much activity at 2:00 in the morning that if you had to wait for an hour for a 146 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. police officer --
Councilman, the problem is, if it happens once -- we had a car that was blocked in on Third and Arch and you wouldn't believe what happened. I mean, he started a fight. The Police were called. It took at least a half hour for a major crime like that. He ransacked our attendant booth and -- this is what I'm afraid of. If you take a guy's car and you're jeopardizing putting it on a hook, moving it feet 14 away while the customer is coming back -- 15 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Wait a 16 minute. You want to move the car so that 17 the person who is blocking -- 18
We want to get the 19 car out of there. We want to let the tow 20 company deal with the car. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Whether they relocate it or get it out, the question is how do we determine whether it was towed legally or did a roving tow company drive through the lot and take it 147 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. away when it may not have been blocking anyone in?
We don't do business that way. We're the same as Parkway. We only tow after three times unless it's an emergency. We tow maybe cars a year. 9 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Then I 10 don't think there's an issue for you 11 guys. 12
Well, the issue is, 13 you're putting the onus on the legitimate 14 business to -- 15
I'm sorry. I just asked a question. I didn't hear the number. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Fifteen. 148 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc.
A year. 6 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Councilman 7 Kenney, they don't ask for the car to be 8 towed until after the third time, unless 9 somebody is blocking someone in. 10 Is that accurate? 11
Or unless they're a 12 violator. They may be a violator and 13 they may after three times. 14
But if 15 Parkway tows 50 a year and they tow 15 and I have 176 or so valid complaints or at least filed complaints, I mean, I don't -- I thought you were going to tell me you tow like literally hundreds of cars a year.
And we don't even half the time collect, but our concern is the times that we have to tow, that you're putting an onus on a legitimate company and making us responsible to wait 149 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. for the Police or the Parking Authority to come.
I will go back to my original premise. We wouldn't be sitting here if the folks that everyone hired followed the rules, and there are folks out there who follow the rules. Actually, there's more of them than don't.
We're not here to support the tow companies. We totally agree with you, and we feel that the laws on the books today, that if the laws were enforced that are on the books today, that if a tow company tows a car illegally and doesn't take credit cards, we totally support your bill. All we're saying is to exempt legitimate public parking companies that have no other recourse but to tow at times.
But your testimony indicates that you feel bad for the poor guy who's blocking at 2 o'clock in the morning. How about the poor 150 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. person who can't find their car at 2 o'clock in the morning because one of those rogue operations have it locked up behind bullet-proof glass and won't take -- my point is, I have more sympathy for those folks than the poor guy who is blocked in and he probably could take a taxi home if he had to. These folks can't find their car.
I agree with you, but we've been in business for 50 years and I think out of the 50 years, we've never had a problem like somebody being -- the wrong towing company, and I can vouch for most of the association, that I don't think there's ever been -- have you had a problem like that, Rob, where they towed the wrong car?
That's what I was saying. That's why -- we do keep the records. We do agree. We don't want bad towing operators, and we won't use them if we knew that they were bad. We wouldn't use them. And they should be 151 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. shut down by L&I, but not by us.
But you just said that we shouldn't use bad towing operators. We don't know if they're bad unless L&I shuts them down. If you have 44 bad complaints --
No, no. 11 Forty-four in three months. It's 176 or so.
It's more complaints than both of you guys tow in a year.
So why doesn't L&I or the City Controller go after them and close those companies down? I mean, then you got the problem solved. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: I just want to go back to my original line of questioning. A tow truck driver can't get on your property unless they're allowed in, either by an attendant or -- 152 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. I don't know how they get into the automated garages. They go in, but they got to be able to pay to get out, right?
Unless there's no 6 gate. If there's no gate, they come in only if we call them. We don't have roving tow companies come on our facility.
Just for your own business safety and your own customer safety, why wouldn't you gate the lot?
Some lots are too small to put gates on. It's not physically possible in some lots.
And some lots have entrances on each side that you can't gate them. We do have video camera and we will be happy to supply that information if the wrong car is towed.
What's the 153 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. financial arrangement between the parking lot and the tow company?
For my situation, they help to collect the fines. We supply them with the record of bad --
Do you have to pay them or are they just on a piecework basis?
They collect the fine for us. No, we don't pay them. They get their fees. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Their towing fee?
And then they collect their penalties and parking fees that we are owed. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: So the printout, not to interrupt, but the printout says three tickets, $100 each violation, so you owe us $300 for non-paying --
No. We're talking about $15. 154 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: -- for non-payment of parking. The tow truck company gets his or her fee for towing, collects the other 300 that you were entitled to, and you're reimbursed?
On our end, we ask for the daily rate, whatever that is, $15, $10 a day, and if they're after three days -- if they're there after three days, they'll collect the money. We don't -- COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: You're asking for the money you're entitled to for having them park their car in your spot for whatever length of time?
That's the last line of defense what we have. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: 155 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. Understood.
And we put tow signs up to tell people if they don't pay. Now, I have to tell you, there have been times that I did call the Police when somebody refused to pay, and the Police were put in a situation where they told the people to leave and not pay. So, I mean, we don't want to put the Police in that position either. There have been a number of times recently that the Police would come on the lot and say, Well, I'm not here to be judge and jury. You let that car go and leave them off the lot. I mean, we don't want the Police or the Parking Authority to become a judge and jury. When we're ready to tow, we want to get the car out of there. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Councilman Green.
Thank you. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Excuse me. 156 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. Ma'am, we'll get to your testimony. I apologize. Thank you.
It seems to me that there is a relatively simple solution to the problem, if the Police would agree, and, that is, provide an exemption in the bill for attended lots. In other words -- COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: That's what I just said.
Oh, is that what you just said? COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Well, not out loud. I've spoken to him about maybe we can carve that out.
I'm sorry. Or provide an exemption if a lot owner calls as opposed to have it being one of these trolling situations. Either thing seems to me would solve the problem relatively easily, and we're talking about a very small number of the cars that are towed. And if you have an attended lot, you're talking about 157 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. somebody that's probably a responsible businessman. That doesn't solve your problem for the lots that aren't attended.
Okay. What happens is, we have roving people who walk around and write the tickets. We call for a tow --
Yeah. And the person waits for the tow company to make sure they get the right car and to hand them the information. So, I mean, in a sense, it is attended when there's a tow. But, yeah, all of these lots that we're talking about, or most of them, are unattended, machine operated, but they're roving --
We can guarantee that we can have somebody there to sign for the tow, if that's what you're asking.
So here's 158 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. the issue that the Lieutenant explained to me, and, that is, the Police are planning to try to enforce this by if there's no ticket on the window of a car that is being towed, they're going to stop that tow truck driver. So one way to solve that problem would be to allow people to apply for something that you could -- a City-issued thing that would go to people who are going to be there when the car is picked up so that that essentially ticket is visible to the Police as it's driving down the street.
Well, this ticket could be visible too, the one that we print out. I mean --
Well, then you'd have tow operators do it, but I'm talking like a blue and yellow -- something that clearly came from the City of Philadelphia that your roving people could have with them and put under the windshield. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: So they're 159 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. basically doing the work that the legislation is looking for the Police and/or the Parking Authority to do?
Right, because where they plan to enforce this is on the street, not in the lots, as tow trucks go by without tickets.
If we can have something to identify the car, we sign for the car, we call, the tow company does -- the legitimate ones are supposed to call the Police so that the Police has a record, we have a record. Now, my concern of the way the bill stands now, if you think this thing through, if we have to wait for the Police to come --
Okay. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Councilman Kenney. 160 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc.
Part of the problem is, I have to go by what the Police Commissioner is telling us they're willing to do, and we talked about exemptions, for example, for some residential issues and private residential lots. It is the Police Department's belief that carve-outs begin to create an uneven system and they want to -- now, I'm not saying they're right or wrong. I'm just saying this Police Commissioner is pretty firm and pretty direct in what he says and what he believes, and he has told me through Lieutenant Healy that they want to see how it goes for a couple months, and if there's a problem, we could adjust at that point, but do not want to start carving out now, because there will be additional requests for carve-outs that will weaken the bill.
I guess what I'm suggesting is, we have time -- we don't have time today to get a response 161 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. from Commissioner Ramsey, but the bill 3 is --
Well, he's authorized to speak for the Commissioner if he wants to come back and --
Well, then I guess I'd like, after this panel, to hear Lieutenant Healy's explanation of why we're not solving -- the problem the Police were trying to solve by requiring everyone to have a ticket is so they can enforce it on the street. If we give people with attended lots or ticket or a piece of Philadelphia paper that we've clearly authorized, I don't see why we haven't solved -- we haven't met Commissioner Ramsey's goal.
Well, I'll let Lieutenant Healy do that at the end, but I think the testimony here at the table is that many of these lots are not attended.
Attended or -- well, they are calling for the tow 162 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. and they will have someone there when the tow truck comes.
Well, the issue is is that and what we're trying to stop is when their rover, which seems to me to be not someone --
We have people who walk around and they're patrolling. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: They're employees. 163 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc.
If their employee is not there, Councilman, there's no sticker, there's no ticket or sticker or other thing that we authorize 164 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. them to --
I understand that. But the three hours that the rover is not there, there's no 6 way -- and there's no gate --
If we had ever a complaint like this, we would reimburse the customer. We would fire the company. And like the first time I heard a bad thing about Tow Decision was with the Police in your meeting, and it was eye opening, and we are investigating. We're probably going to not use them.
Where would a person -- who would a person complain to if -- so you've never personally received a complaint. We don't know for sure that it hasn't happened. 165 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc.
I have a claims department and complaint department and I get a lot of complaints. I like to hear about complaints, so I know what the heck is going on in my parking lots. So I appreciate complaints, and I respond to them. I don't always agree with the remedy, but we handle a lot of complaints and we try to do it as professionally as possible, and I've never had a personal call about a tow. Again, we tow so few cars that --
See, that's why I don't understand why this is such a burden.
Because we're concerned about this, just like if you open the door and people start to feel better -- just because I only tow so many cars, that doesn't mean that I have -- just like the Parking Authority comes out every year with like $75,000 worth of parking fines, we're starting to develop that. We have people here that have $250 166 5/5/10 - STREETS - BILL 100213, etc. worth of fines that they haven't paid. You open the door up a little bit more and you're not able to get those people, it's going to get worse and it's going to get worse. And our collections, it's on an honor system, and it works now. And if you open the door, it's going to get worse and it's going to be bad for my company. It's going to be bad for the City because the taxes that we collect for the City also.
But it's also bad for the City when people have a bad experience and don't come back.