COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Monday, June 11, 2007 11:00 a.m. - - - PRESENT: COUNCILWOMAN MARIAN B. TASCO, CHAIR COUNCILMAN JAMES F. KENNEY COUNCILMAN JUAN RAMOS COUNCILWOMAN BLONDELL REYNOLDS BROWN RESOLUTION 060711 - Resolution authorizing the Council Committee on Public Health and Human Services to hold hearings regarding the inmate overcrowding and security problems at the Philadelphia Prison System. - - - V A R A L L O Incorporated Litigation Support Services Eleven Penn Center 1835 Market Street, Suite 600 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 215.561.2220 215.567.2670 2
Good morning. I'd like to call the Committee on Public Health and Human Services to order and note that this Committee was held October 31, 2006 and the Committee was recessed to the call of the Chair. Therefore, a quorum was established at that first hearing and there is no need for -- that quorum stands through this hearing. And, also, it was a resolution 12 and it does not necessarily require a quorum. We will now have the Clerk read the title of the bill.
This is regarding Resolution No. 060711. Resolution 18 authorizing the Council Committee on Public Health and Human Services to hold hearings regarding inmate overcrowding and security problems at the Philadelphia Prison System.
Thank you very much. In October of last year, this 3 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 Committee held hearings regarding the dangerous conditions that exist in the City's prisons. During these hearings, many correctional officers testified regarding the horrendous conditions that exist in the City prisons. They indicated their fear for their lives and the lives of the inmates that resulted from the understaffing and the facilities' capacity. These security issues and overcrowding have created an environment where inmate crime, violence and riots are more likely to occur and have produced an unsafe and severely stressful workplace environment for City employees in our Prison System. Additionally, this environment has led to renewed litigation against the City regarding the violations of the constitutional rights of inmates. Like any other public service that protects our public safety, we need to ensure that correctional officers have a safe environment. Like the Humane 4 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 Society, we have to protect inmates from unreasonable and inhumane conditions while they are paying their debt to society. The purpose of this hearing is to discuss and address some recent developments which have been brought to the public's attention regarding triple celling inmates at Riverside Correctional Facility, correctional officers' suspension for minor infractions and other issues that are exacerbating the already dangerous conditions. This follow-up hearing is for the purpose of updating Council, as well as the public, on these new and serious conditions that have been brought before this body. We apologize for the short notice of the hearing. Due to the fact that City Council will recess on Thursday until September, we thought we would try and hold this hearing today for this update so that we can hear some of the concerns that were brought before the 5 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 Council the other day. So we didn't want to delay the discussion until September, and we may even continue it to September, but at least we wanted to have something on the record before we recessed. So we now thank you and we call on our first panel. I'd like to recognize Councilman Kenney is with us today and there will be other Councilmembers joining us soon. We have Panel 1. Would you please identify your name for the record and proceed to testify.
My name is Wendell Thompson. I'm the Business Agent of Local 159, District Council 33.
Go ahead. Introduce yourselves as you testify. Thank you.
Thank you, Madam Chairman, Council, for having us here this morning. I'm here to testify this morning on the seriousness and danger 6 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 that is brewing in the Philadelphia Prison System. This started three years ago when it was warned what was going to happen in the system. It seemed like everybody turned a deaf ear to it. Right now we have an overcrowded population system that nobody is addressing. It seems like the Mayor has closed the door and turned his back on the correctional officers in the Philadelphia Prison System. You go back to October and I'm pretty sure you're still waiting on the 24-point plan that they said they had for y'all from the Managing Director, and I ask, have you gotten that plan yet. They have no idea what's going on. They trying to put the pressure on the union, when the fault is on the administration. It's their job to staff these prisons. Right now you have a jail system built for -- a new facility built for females that's overcrowded. They don't have the correct staff to run it. 7 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 We gave you a letter. I don't know if you got the letter from one inmate that we gave you that what's going on right now, but the bottom line, the jail was built 64 to one on the first floor. The second and third floor was two to 128. They're trying to open up these jails with less staff with these inmates living three in a cell. That's going to become a dangerous situation this summer. Our staff is down. Over the last two years, we done lost close to over 300 correction officers and they have not replaced any of them. There's something wrong where you have 650 correction officers take the Sheriff test and 139 process and go to the Police Department. It seems like when they talk about crime of Philadelphia, they talk about locking them up, what they supposed to do, but they forget about where they locking them up. People forget about the Prison System. 8 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 We, the men and women of the Philadelphia Prisons, the correction officers, are the ones that goes in every day, kiss our loved ones like everybody else, hoping we can go home. It's like we crying, we crying. We ask for help every day. It seems like nobody listens to us. It falls on deaf ears. So I'm here this morning before this panel to let you know you're either going to pay now or pay later, because something major is going to happen up in them prisons and you're going to wind up paying a lot of lawsuits, and some people going to wind up losing their lives. And I ask you, don't let that happen. Somebody got to take a major look at what's going on up there as far as the staffing and who is running it. For some reason, we're losing the prisons. We're losing. I get people come to work wanting to do their job and they get suspended, sent home when they feel as though their lives are put in 9 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 danger, because they want them to do something they won't do. You take any of the Wardens, the Commissioner and ask them to go open them houses up by theirselves for eight hours, see if they'll do it. But they want these officers to do it. If they don't do it, they send them home and suspend them. That's wrong. The bottom line is, safety is first for the inmates and the officers. And they're trying to find a way to cut corners, and that's not going to happen. You're supposed to have certain numbers to open up them housing areas. That's what you're supposed to have, them agreements we have, but they want to break them agreements. Now, if they do what they want to do and somebody get hurt, the first person going to get hurt behind everything, it may make a stand, it may lose his life, but then they want to discipline the correction officer on 10 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 something they wouldn't do. I come here to you this morning to ask you to put a stop to this. Find money for the Philadelphia Prison System.
Find money so we can get the correct staff up there. One of the first things we will ask you to do is ask the Mayor to waive the $35 fee that he charge for applications. It's something when you go from over 7,000 people taking the test to only 239 took the last correction officer test. Something is wrong with that picture, when you drop from 7,000 to 239. It's like I'm here to say, we, the men and women of the Philadelphia Prisons, are asking for help. They're crying for help. They're here this morning to testify to let you know how they feel, how their families feel and the help they need, and that's why we're here this morning. Thank you.
Thank you very much. 11 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 Mr. North.
Good morning. I'd like to thank the Committee for holding these hearings today. My name is Lorenzo North. I'm President of Local 159. Thursday I addressed City Council and I talked about the conditions of one of the dangerous prisons on State Road, which is PICC. Today you will hear from officers that work them housing areas that work in the jail every day, and they will tell you the conditions where the inmates are locked down day after day. They're running activities short of staff, which put the inmates and the officers in danger every day. We had an inmate killed last year, and we still haven't found out who done it. So I'm asking you, once you hear the testimony today, to take action that will see that the prisons are secure and safe at all times. Thank you.
Thank you. 12 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 Mr. Katz.
I'll be especially brief. The eloquence of the two Local 159 officials speaks well and goes to the heart of the problem. As someone who is a relatively newcomer to this type of difficulty, I have been amazed to see that everyone who has the responsibility is stumbling in circles trying to find a mutually acceptable way of allocating funds to increase the complement of security of correctional officers to the advantage of the security of the whole system. And basically as I understand it and as I see this problem, it is a failure by the administration of the system to be able to find a way of properly staffing the number of correctional officers and allocating the hours to those correctional officers that are necessary in order to have a civilized security system. As it now stands, you have this 13 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 fiscal fooling around going nowhere, to the detriment of the lives of both inmates and correctional officers and, in some instances, the possibility of the general public. I don't know how in the world it reached such a level of dilemma, but somebody somewhere is not doing their job. Somebody somewhere needs lessons in communication. And the conveying of obligations that City Council, the Office of the Mayor, the administration of the Prison System and those of us who are supposed to be alert to it; that is, Local 159 of AFSCME, don't seem to be doing what should be taking place. We are coming here to set this problem in your laps and to help you find a direction in which we want you to take the lead in saying to your other governmental units with whom you have to work in tandem, Here is the money that has to be allocated, here is the minimum, minimum security levels that the system 14 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 should anticipate, and do it not yesterday, not next month, not the month later, but immediately, immediately. Now, I don't know how procedurally that would work, but there are means by which City Council and committees such as yours who are put in the forefront to analyze and come back from the problem, there are means by which emergency funding, emergency allocation and emergency hiring can be obtained. You will hear from a number of dedicated men and women just how bad the extent of this problem is.
Thank you very much. Mr. North, have you heard anything about the 24-point plan that we discussed in October?
Okay. Just refresh my memory in terms of that 24-point plan. It was supposed to be about reforming the entire system?
Well, the Commissioner testified that he had the 24-point plan, but we never seen it.
We'll wait until the Commissioner comes forward. Mr. Katz, we certainly hear what you're saying in terms of the finances, and this City Council has been aggressive in funding a number of the departments, particularly the Health Department when they testified last year because we did not have enough staff in 16 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 the Health Department and health inspectors, and we appropriated money through the City Council, but the Mayor didn't spend it. So we have to have some agreement from the Administration, and that is the procedure. We can appropriate the money or we can put it in the budget, but the Mayor does not necessarily have to spend. It has to be based on what his priorities are in terms of where he wants to spend the money that's given to him through the budget process. I'm not sure that that will is to give the money to the Prison System.
We are confident that if you make the means available to the extent that the case has to be in a detailed fashion set forth before the Mayor to enlist his cooperation, that we can do that.
I don't believe that's going to be -- because I think if this was a major issue, knowing and understanding the overcrowding and 17 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 the conditions that were discussed in October when these gentlemen and the staff members came to testify, we would have seen that there might have been some sensitivity to that and some effort to move to provide the funding to the prisons that would be needed, and that was not done when the budget was sent to us.
It has to be, in an emergency fashion, revisited. That's all I can suggest. Revisited, revisited now. And to the extent that any office of our division of government is unresponsive, such as if in fact the executive office is unresponsive, there are ways in which it can be, quote, explained, end quote, to the Mayor's Office and a sensitivity to the peril that's being created. It's real peril. As a relative, quote, outsider, end quote, I'm shocked at what is being conveyed to me and I'm shocked at what I see. It's not my body and my life that's 18 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 on the line there. It's those for whom I have a certain responsibility and you have a certain responsibility and the Mayor has a responsibility, and if we all recognize that responsibility, let's do the right thing, let's allocate the money, let's get it in there and let's properly staff the prisons.
Thank you. What is the current status of any existing agreements or lawsuits on the federal level? I remember a number of years ago there was a federal judge who actually took control of the prison population and was directly involved in who got released and who didn't get released and dealing with the levels of prison population. What is the jurisdiction of the Federal Court currently as it relates to these issues?
I don't know that 19 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 anything has been done at this juncture.
No. I mean, this was a number of years ago when Judge Shapiro had extreme input into the Prison System. Why would you not just file an emergency petition with the Federal Court to make the same argument and then -- I mean, as Councilwoman Tasco says, this is a very strong mayoral form of government. We could allocate $50 million to the system and the Mayor would refuse to spend it. He can't ignore a federal judge or a federal court order. So why aren't you at that level asking for emergency injunctive relief?
Because it seems to us that the emergency injunctive relief forthcoming from the federal bench would probably be one of opening up the gates and kicking inmates out, and that doesn't make any sense. I don't know that the Federal Court has the jurisdiction -- has the power of effectively saying to City Council and to the Mayor, You have a 20 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 major problem here, now here's what you have to allocate, et cetera, et cetera.
But the original federal lawsuit was filed by people on behalf of the prison inmates.
You should be filing something on behalf of the prison guards.
But I think if you're looking for a jurisdiction that's going to be able to go directly to the issue and direct City officials to do certain things, it's more likely the federal bench than it's going to be the Mayor's Office.
Well, if that could effectively be done -- and legally I have some reservations as to the power of the Federal Courts to go to the type of details that are necessary -- that would be fine and it would take some time. However, what can really be done is a 21 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 recognition of the problems that beset this community and this system by a joinder of City Council and the Mayor. We're here before the body of City Council.
And you have an ear here and you have a desire to be cooperative here. Nothing against the Mayor personally, but I know that when he sets his mind to something, he's not going to change it, and with few months left in his term, he's probably not going to budge. So rather than -- and I don't mind sitting here hearing this. I think it's important that we and the press know what's going on and it's continually promulgated, but if you think you're going to leave here today and the two of us are going to convince the guy on the second floor to change his mind, it's not going to happen between now and January. And I'm not saying that as a cop-out; I'm telling you that's what has been our 22 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 experience in the past eight years.
What you talking about when Justice Perrill had power over the Prison System, back in '93, I think it was, or '94, Mayor Rendell and City Council President John Street at the time got the judge persuaded how they could control the Prison System. She released it back to them.
And ever since they had it back, Philadelphia City had it, it has become a disaster. They gave them -- I'm just telling you what happened. They gave them the power back to the City.
And you'll get no argument from me, and you're there on the ground and you see it every day and I don't doubt your word. All I'm saying is, if you're looking for the more direct way in which to approach this, 23 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 this is important, but in the end, you're not going to probably get any relief from the second floor until there's another Mayor, which will be January '08.
I'm not discounting -- that's why I'm wondering why you're not in front of a federal judge seeing whether or not you can effect the situation through a federal court order.
Because, frankly, it may have been overly naive on our part, but we are convinced or were convinced -- and I'm beginning to scratch my head as to whether or not we are being too optimistic. We were convinced that if we take our plate to City Council and show City Council the plate and the problem and gain a receptive set of recommendations and a receptive set of potential legislation from City Council 24 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 and shove that under the Mayor's nose, that we can induce the Mayor to be a cooperative participant.
But the issue for us, remember, is that we have Thursday -- we amended the bill, as you saw, on last Thursday to deal with the School District and an extra $10 million that's required to hopefully keep some of our young people out of having to come in contact with you later in life, but if we amend the bill again this week and we'll have to have an extra session of Council, which we can't guarantee we can get, even if we do that and pass that appropriation, how do you get him to spend it?
We'll do our best to deal with that with some of the realities of life. 25 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711
And I think it's important that you are here and I think it's important that we know the conditions and the public knows the conditions, but if you're looking for a direct result in getting this fixed, it's not going to come out of the second floor until January '08.
Well, I should hope that Council can take the first step enabling us within a matter of weeks to go to the Mayor and I --
One of the things I would have hoped, we might have had the request earlier during the budget process in terms of -- what we need to know is what is the ideal amount of money that you need, what is it that you need, how many additional employees do you need, what does it take to run the ideal -- well, it won't be ideal given 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 overcrowding, but in terms of the number of officers you need to provide for the staffing, what would the cost be for that. There has to be a figure. You want us to draft a figure? I mean, how much money are you requesting and how much would you need to hire additional employees? Those are the things that also have to be discussed.
There's no doubt in my mind that a general figure, a general reasonable figure, can be achieved jointly with the administration of the prison and the administration of the correctional officers, Local 159, and that can be done in a matter of a day or two.
Mr. North, you don't have any idea how much money you need to hire additional people, and can that be done in a day or two?
First of all, ma'am, we done lost over 300 on the last two years. 27 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711
But when you come to us to talk to us about dollars, you have to give us some figures and you have to tell us what that figure buys. I understand and I am sensitive to the discussion here, but at the end of the day, we need to know what is the bottom line and what would you ask Council to pay for. So if you're asking us to provide funding for so many staff members, then we have to know what that means in terms of dollars and cents.
But that doesn't mean that it's going to get done, is what Councilman Kenney is saying. We can appropriate the money. People can come back here for a special session, which I doubt Council will do, and then the Mayor will not spend the money. The Mayor will not spend the money, because 28 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 the priority, as I see it -- and this is only my personal view -- has not been to address the overcrowding in the prison. If so, some of the other requests that we have received in this Council for expenditures of funds from the General Fund would not come forth and that money could have been redirected to the prisons. So it's a matter of trying -- have you had a discussion with the Mayor about this?
Have you had a discussion with the Mayor about the overcrowding?
Have you all had any discussion with the Mayor at all about the overcrowding?
And what's his response? 29 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711
Well, I am confident that we can revisit, maybe not successfully, but armed with the might that is given to us by virtue of a responsive City Council and a figure, that we can revisit the Mayor prior to the time he abandons responsibility, and all we're asking for is the opportunity to do that.
Thank you very much. Let us hear from the next panel. You won't go any place, will you?
Thank you. Saliym Hakiym, Natalie Mims and 30 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 Gerald Carter. Would you come this way, please. Good morning. (Good morning.)
Would you please begin. Please state your name for the record and begin your testimony.
Good morning. Commissioner, ladies and gentlemen of the Council, good morning. I would first like to thank you all for your time and attention in regards to the matter at hand, the ever-rising number of female inmates --
I apologize. The ever-rising number of 31 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 female inmates and the dire need for the Philadelphia Prison System to configurate a solution that will enable all the staff to adhere to the PPS mission, which is to provide a safe and secured environment for both staff and detained or sentenced inmates. I, Correctional Officer Mims, am currently assigned at RCF, where the proposed increased ratio, which was at one time due to past practice 64 inmates to one CO, would be 99 inmates to one CO. I respectfully and most humbly --
Excuse me, please. Would you please read that again and go slowly so we can hear. Our ears don't hear that fast.
Because you're citing some information that we need to hear. So please read a little more slowly.
Yes. You 32 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 don't have to thank us again.
The ever-rising number of female inmates and the dire need for the Philadelphia Prison System to configurate a solution that will enable all staff to adhere to the PPS mission, which is to provide a safe and secured environment for both staff and detained or sentenced inmates. I, Correctional Officer Mims, am currently assigned at RCF, where the proposed increase ratio, which is now at -- which was at one time due to past practice 64 inmates to one CO, will be increased 99 inmates to one CO. I respectfully and most humbly speak in representation of the officers at RCF and would like to first bring to our Commissioner's, the Honorable Leon King, Esquire's, attention that we would much rather deal with our present dilemma, as with the Philadelphia Police Department, as well as the Philadelphia Fire Department in an in-house formality. 33 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 Therefore, we request of the Commissioner a conference with a panel with five correctional officers from RCF in an effort to remedy this threatening epidemic. We acknowledge the fact that our President is in a moment of mourning and that the Business Agent is the elected mediator for such crisis, but to our despair, we have yet to hear from him and are left to assume that it's possible our concerns are not being relayed as we so desire them, which is why we have taken such extreme measures by requesting this most needed and overdue conference with the Honorable Commissioner King in an attempt to adduce the many possible hazards in the event that the proposed ratio increase is implemented. We make this request with no 22 intentions to forfeit our right to be heard by the Council if for some reason a mutual agreement cannot be concluded from the requested conference. For now, we 34 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 simply ask that all avenues of resolution 3 be explored by the Philadelphia Prison System before the next level of resolve be utilized. Again, on behalf of the correctional officers at RCF, I thank you for your time and I'm looking forward to working hand in hand with our Honorable Commissioner.
Thank you. Just let me ask you a question. I have one. You said you had 64 inmates to one correctional officer?
And is that the ideal complement? What would be the, I guess, normal average complement in most prisons that would be the ideal?
For the past practice, it has proven to be just enough, safe enough, we all go home at night.
Sixty-four to one? 35 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711
Sixty-four to one. The proposed increase would be 99 inmates to one CO. And maybe we're under the assumption that because it's female inmates --
-- they're not dangerous, but I would like to, from my own personal experience, I would like to say, we're dealing with females that will carry a child, give birth to a child and then kill it. We're not asking for the unrealistic. Everybody wants to work. Everybody wants to provide for their children and not be on the other side of the Prison System. Therefore, we're just asking of our Commissioner to hear us out and maybe we all can work together.
My name is Saliym 36 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 Hakiym and I'm a Union Delegate for Local 159 and presently I'm --
Would you pull the microphone closer and speak slowly.
And presently I'm at Riverside Correctional Facility, which we call RCF. One of the main problems that we see that my membership tells me with the increase of inmates, the ratio of inmates to our officers, is that the increase of arguments. Even though we can handle that ratio that we once had at 64 to one that she just mentioned, when I came into the system, the ratio from the court decree was 57 to one, and once they opened up CFCF, we went into an agreement with the administration to increase it because of how they had constructed CFCF, and that brought the ratio up to 64 to one. And from that, anything that was built since CFCF was constructed, the ratio was supposed to be maintained. 37 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 Approximately two, maybe two and a half years ago, they opened up what we called multi-purpose rooms at RCF.
Multi-purpose rooms. It's just a room, but they just house inmates. They put six inmates in the room. You really can't secure that room, especially for people that work the 11:00 to 7:00 shift. So that means the inmates can just walk around all the time. And I know it's a failed policy when you put people in rooms that wasn't built for them, because there's no 17 running water or anything like that. Approximately five years ago when I was working at CFCF, they instituted another failed policy of overburdening the COs. And I was working Bravo one-three, which is quarantine, and they put bunk beds down there in the dayroom, which means that there was 20 inmates that was running around all the 38 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 time. And from that, those that was housed in the cells could not come out. And this one particular incident, I got into an altercation with one of the inmates and I broke my hand. My hand was all pinned up, and it was because of people that was on that unit that was in the dayroom. Now, the inmate that came out that I had the altercation with, he refused to get back into his cell. And I understood why after he said he wasn't going back in, and the reason why he didn't want to go back in the cell, because he said he was locked down all day for something that he didn't even do. He was already locked up. So he would rather go to the hold. At least he would come out for two hours a day instead of just coming out for medication or picking up his tray. So now we're back to that same juncture again, but only this time I'm with the females. The females have 39 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 special needs, and when I seen those numbers before for 57 to one that was for that court decree, when we agreed to the 64 to one, it didn't have anything to do with gender specific, because when you speak about officers, it's not gender specific. It is not. So here we are again. Are those inmates pleased with what's happening when you have three in a cell? You can look at the cells, and I wish you guys would come up there and see the cells sometime. They have two to a cell. They say that's what they built it for, but if you looked at it, you will see that it was only really designed for one person. Now they have three. They have someone that's sleeping what we call "boats," on the floor. For females -- it's worse enough for a man, but for a female. I'm looking at this and she's sleeping by a toilet. We still have the same amount of supplies that we once had. For 40 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 instance, if it's two females in a cell, they get two rolls of toilet paper. Sometimes the administration think they're using too much. I don't know. I'm not a female, but I do know y'all when you go to the bathroom, you use more than what a man would use. All these supplies, for their pads, they don't have enough pads for the women. This Warden and the one that I had worked under before he came here, they make decisions, but it's basically decisions that has already been approved for them to make. If they're able or we're able to make decisions, because they are the Wardens to run their jails, I think we would do a little bit more, a little bit better than what we're doing right now. I stand roll call sometimes. I hear names called for different posts, and I never see that person again. I hear the name, but I never see that person at the post. Or if they do happen 41 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 to show up, they're pulled, for whatever reason. So what I'm asking is, these policies that they're putting in place, it's basically, from my opinion, for those who haven't done the job or have been so far removed from the job that they're not concerned about our safety. I know we're talking about staffing, but approximately two weeks ago on a unit that had over 150 people, it had three officers on there. Whatever happened, I can't really say, but they pulled the third officer.
Was it a little better for those officers? Yes. Officers have a lot of stress in their life. We don't talk about it, but it's there. I know they get consultants and they come in and they make their recommendations, but you have all the experts you need right here in the system that's there. Right now I work with colleges, chapters, social workers. I never worked with them 42 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 before, but I have since they have put me here at RCF. I've talked to them. I asked them what do they think is wrong. Well, their workload has increased, too. It's not just us. It's theirs, too. Medical's workload has increased. People that's in quarantine, they slip through. How do I know? Because I'm working up there with the social workers, because they ask me to call these certain inmates down to them. They should never have went to the units. They should have stayed in quarantine.
Excuse me a minute. I'm sorry. We just realized we didn't have a stenographer. But it's being taped. It's being recorded. Your testimony is being recorded. It just kind of threw me off there for a minute. Would you continue, please.
So I think since those that are calling the shots or corrections haven't done the job or have 43 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 been so far removed from the job, that we have to come to people like you for some sort of relief. We're not asking that anyone else come in and do the job for us. We're not asking for that. We just need some relief that we can continue to do our job and do the job safely. One other thing that I would like to say and I have always said this since I found out from working at CFCF, at one time we was all -- when I say "all," I'm speaking about all the facilities. When we use our walkies, we all heard everybody. If there was an incident that was happening and I needed assistance and I was working at CFCF or right now if I'm working at RCF, someone at another facility can step on that transmission of mine's, right, and that is precious time. I think that -- and they going to say it's money, but I think we all can have our own frequency. It's okay for all the center controls to hear 44 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 everything, and I think they should. CFCF has its own frequency, because everybody was stepping on everyone and you couldn't really get the help. If they did it for CFCF after it was constructed, they can do it for this one, too.
Madam Chair, just one question on the frequency issue. Are you saying that you're on the normal City municipal band or you have your own --
But CFCF is on a separate band? 45 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711
Is on a separate. But it wasn't like that when they first constructed it. They found out that there was a problem, so they constructed it at CFCF.
So you're telling me that an officer at Riverside would have the transmission stepped on from PICC?
Yes. And I'm going to say this, too: If the three of us are partners at this time, only one of us would have a walkie anyway. So if one of us take a tour on the other side of the unit, if something was occurring, that person who didn't have the walkie, they're going to be out of luck. They're going to be in big trouble. And this is every day.
So in a team of three, there's only one walkie-talkie?
Even if it was just a team of two, it still could just 46 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 be one walkie. We need equipment.
Good afternoon. Could you please state your name, sir, and offer your testimony.
Good morning. My name is Gerald Carter, officer of RCF. Basically, I'm here to state more so what my counterparts are talking about in regards to safety of the jails. Currently, I can speak for RCF, because that's the jail I currently work at. I feel that right now that the conditions are unsafe as far as the officers go, as far as the census of the jail, as far as the overcrowdedness where you have two officers and you have 150-some-odd inmates. I feel as though it is somewhat unsafe. And then there are times where the officers -- where if you have two officers, then you have two officers and two rovers or escorts, so forth, to run 47 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 the floor, they'll pull the escort or move an officer off the block and then have one escort and the center to open the floor up, which I feel is unsafe. Because say if you have two floors or two units of 150-some inmates, if you have two officers and may have one rover and a fight breaks out on one of these units, the officers are at risk, because that rover can't run on both units to cover those officers. And that's what our rovers do, they have to be that second eye or that third eye for the officers. Then there are officers that are looking out for the safety. We come to work for our safety. Our officers, we all come to work to take care of our family and for safety. We don't come to work to be harassed or be beaten up or so forth, and I feel as though I think what the Prison System -- they have taken the jails lightly, but I pretty much think they taken our staff, the female jails, more lightly than the other jails because 48 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 they are females, and I think they don't think these females can do the damage that the men can do, where I witnessed females attacking officers, whether they be male or female, these female inmates. And I think all the officers, all we're asking for is safety. We come to work, take our families, and we're safe and we can go home to our families. And I think as far as if the Commissioner and the Wardens and so forth would look at that and see where we're coming from, they would understand it better. And like they said, we're the real officers that work in these blocks. We see what these inmates do day-to-day. They don't work the block or they don't come to see the blocks or actually take a tour of the blocks like we see it. So when we're taking the risks, I don't think they understand quite what we're going through, and I think that on some points we're underhanded on demand, we're getting suspended if we don't open a 49 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 block up because there's two officers or one officer to all these inmates, we're shorthanded. So if we don't open a block up, then we'll get suspended and without pay and so forth. Then we have to go through all these allegations to get our jobs back or to get back to work, where as though that's from us taking our families, all because we're looking out for our safety, and I don't think that's fair. All we're asking for is the manpower to take -- to run these blocks or to run these units, really to run this jail. That's any jail, not just RCF, all the jails. All we're asking for is the manpower to run these units and run this jail. And I think if they look at it from that standpoint of what we're asking, the problem could reduce itself. I'm not saying it would go away, but I think it would maybe reduce itself. Because at one time, like I said, I witnessed where they had three officers 50 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 to a block before the jail got to the census where it is at now. And now it's getting more crowded, but they're not adding the other officer now.
Two officers on each unit and two rovers. About five or six officers.
So 51 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 conceivably you have five officers for every two rovers?
No. It's two officers to a unit. It's two units on each floor.
So that's the norm? What you just described is the norm, is what's normal?
The jail got overcrowded and there's still two officers on the units.
So the number of inmates has increased, but the manpower for coverage on any two units has not?
Right. That I witnessed, yes. 52 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711
Whose judgment is it, whose call is it to open up a block? And I'm referring there you said that there's suspensions. So then who makes the call to open up a block or not?
So the Shift Commander may be making the decision, but yet the officer is suspended? I'm trying to make the connect between the suspension --
Well, in the instance where the blocks -- well, I can say from my experience where the block wasn't opened up, I had a Lieutenant that wanted me to open a block up. It wasn't a Shift Commander. It was a Lieutenant that asked me to open a unit up that I 53 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 was reprimanded with.
And when you declined, that's when the suspension happens?
Speak to me about the training of parole officers, prison officers. Talk to me about the training, because that can be tied to the level of vulnerability one may feel. So talk to me about the training. How long is it? What does it involve? Training of prison officers.
Well, their training is about ten weeks. It's basically training on the policies, handling the fire weapons. There's fire weapon training. You get how to handle certain situations as far as disciplinary or --
So is 54 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 there any training given to under what circumstance one needs to make a judgment about whether or not to open up a block?
You mean as far as a question for us where an officer open a block up?
Yes. When an officer has to make the judgment call that it is best --
That's for the officer that go to the supervisor for a supervisor to make that decision.
Currently, it was the three officers to a block and three rovers.
Okay, then. I'll rest my questioning there. Chairwoman Tasco. 55 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711
Thank you very much. We're going to ask you to remain, because we may call you back for some questions. The Councilwoman may have some more, but we need to call the Commissioner because he has a time constraint, and I want him to answer a lot of the questions. This testimony is nothing new. He had this testimony in October, so we want to hear from him this morning -- this afternoon in terms of what changes have been made. So don't leave. We may call you back. Don't go.
Would you wait, please, until your turn. 56 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711
Yes. We'll call you back. Thank you. Good afternoon. COMMISSIONER KING: Good afternoon. I have a short prepared statement that I'm going to read. It shouldn't take me too long. Is that all right?
All right. Thank you. COMMISSIONER KING: Good morning, Councilwoman Tasco and members of the Committee for Public Health and Human Services. My name is Leon King and I'm the Commissioner of the Philadelphia Prison System appointed by Mayor Street in 2002. I am here to offer continuing testimony in regard to City Council Resolution 060711. I appreciate your 57 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 giving me the opportunity to discuss with you the issues of importance to the City of Philadelphia and to the Philadelphia Prison System and its employees. The Prison System continues to work on addressing our population challenges utilizing the resources over which we have authority. Our efforts have been ongoing before and after our last appearance at City Council. Those challenges are readily apparent; the solutions less so. Our present overall census is 8,946 as of midnight last night. This number includes 273 inmates who are housed out of county. That is close to the record of 8,997 set just last month. In order to house that many inmates, there are 200 triple cells at the House of Correction, a current capacity to triple 192 cells at CFCF in intake housing and a current capacity to triple cell 102 cells at the Riverside Correctional Facility. We anticipate a continued 58 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 increase in the inmate population, and I will summarize the efforts we have been making to meet this challenge. I will then address what has happened between PPS administration and District Council 33, Local 159 regarding the current situation with RCF. First, we at the prison have continued to speak with the Criminal Justice Coordinating Committee and fully support City Solicitor Romulo Diaz, who chairs those meetings, and work with him to identify and implement measures that will help reduce the inmate population at the PPS. These solutions must come from our partners in the criminal justice system. The Defender's Office continues its efforts to file early parole petitions, and in order to achieve maximum efficiency, the Prison System has allocated two additional social workers who can be dedicated solely to the task of ensuring that the adjustment summaries 59 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 necessary for early parole petitions are completed in the timeliest manner. Another initiative to increase efficiency in release is to have a bail office located at the Prison System. The current method for processing bail to secure release of arrestees is time consuming and puts unnecessary burdens on family and friends who want to bail their loved ones out. It also prolongs their stay in the jail, which is something we want to reduce. A bail office at the Prison System, which is in the midst of being initiated, will hopefully speed up the process of arrestees being released on bail. The court system has also recently announced that they will begin accepting bail by credit card. Otherwise, the Prison System is doing everything possible to stretch the capacity through the use of contracted satellite facilities. The current operating capacity of the Prison System using all satellites is as follows: We 60 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 start off with the base number of 8,810. With the further use of 192 "blue boats" in the CFCF intake areas brings our number to 9,002. We have 150 contracted beds, with 135 being used as of June in 7 Monmouth County, New Jersey, bringing our number to 9,152. We also have a contractual relationship that has not been formalized to writing yet with Lehigh County on an as-available basis for both male and female inmates, and as of June 7, we had 33 inmates, 28 males and five females at that location. Lastly, we have a contract with Liberty Management located at 10th and Lehigh that we just opened in the last month, bringing our capacity up to 9,282, and we currently have around 74 inmates at that location, 53 males and females.
There 21 is also a contingency to add another hundred or so "blue boats" or triples at CFCF to help us deal with the population over the summer and get us up above the 9,200 number. 61 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 The following complications regarding the available beds at our contracted facilities must also be emphasized. First, both the Monmouth and Lehigh County contracts are based on available beds. There is no guarantee at either facility that Philadelphia will be able to use any of the beds, meaning if the people who run those facilities decide they need the space, they give us certain notice and we would have to leave. Further, the beds to be used at our Liberty Management and Coleman Center facilities are based on inmate classification; in other words, minimum, and community-level inmates can be held there, and we only have so many of those to spread around. To say that all of the above creates a great operational strain is an understatement. As stated at the outset, we are not going to make a prediction, but we are prepared for as many as 9,200 inmates this summer. Therefore, any 62 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 number beyond 9,282 will cause more drastic operational measures such as additional triple cells I mentioned at CFCF. Since May, we have come closer to 9,000 inmates each weekend. I will now address the situation at the Riverside Correctional Facility, which opened in 2004. RCF is our primary holding facility for women. The design capacity for RCF is 768. And I might -- I'm just going to backtrack a little in the testimony. It's traditional in the corrections field and for every jail, I think, we've opened on State Road, you design it for a certain amount of people and by the time you open it, you have more. So in 2004 when we opened RCF with a capacity of 768, in the prior years we topped 950 women. So before the jail opened, it was overcrowded, so to speak.
Could I just ask quickly, why was it designed that way? We know that it's going to 63 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 take X number of months to design and construct a facility, and if we know kind of extrapolating forward that the 768 is going to be 900, why didn't we just design it for the 900 or a thousand? COMMISSIONER KING: Because the way these things operate is, people sit down, they plan the facility, and then the time that it takes one to negotiate the site, make sure everybody is okay with the site, hire the contractors, all the financial changes the City goes through, we end up --
But you also, I think, in your testimony, unless I'm incorrectly understanding it, you said it's understood within the system that traditionally there's going to be -- it's like when they opened the Schuylkill Expressway, it was under capacity --or over capacity by that time they opened it. Don't we know that with the 24-month or 30-month design and 64 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 construction process period that it's going to be 900, not 768? COMMISSIONER KING: We know that, but it's just the way -- I don't know what word I want to use, but the way all the differing parties, organizations work, by the end there's going to be budgetary issues, there's going to be concerns from -- that have to be taken into account and it just ends up happening that way.
Again, and it's water under the bridge because the facility is built, but if we know there's going to be more inmates that need to go in there when we design it, we should design it appropriately and not -- COMMISSIONER KING: I mean, the only thing I would say, for example, if you take the three to four percent increase that we have traditionally in the prisons and you projected it for ten years, you could take a reasonable estimate that we would need, in order 65 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 just to keep up with that, not to mention all the police we're going to hire, et cetera, we need 4,000 beds in the next ten years.
Well, I think there comes a point in time when something is going to change that. It's not going to continue -- I'm talking about going forward over 24, 30 months, not ten years. I mean, if we know there's going to be too many people for the facility, why are we designing them smaller? I guess --
How did you come to 764? I mean, why was that the magic number? COMMISSIONER KING: I don't remember what the magic number was. That ended up being the magic number based on the money that we had and the resources that we had to spend at the time we got the permission to go forward. And the only point I was making, Councilman, is that the estimate 66 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 we did for a 1,500-bed facility is $190 million. You have to take that, as I understand the process, and you put it into all the other priorities that the City has, and it may come out that we can only afford a thousand bed facility and that's what we built. I mean, that's just the reality of it.
Madam Chair, point of information along the same lines.
Councilman, would you identify yourself. We have a tape recorder. We don't have a stenographer.
Councilman Juan Ramos. Could it have been that the number 768 was actually a greater number, but then when it was time to crunch the numbers and decide on the money, that the only thing you can afford to build was enough for 768 inmates? COMMISSIONER KING: That is -- 67 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 I wasn't there for all that minutia, but that is my understanding of what often happens. You have to -- you're only able to use the resources that you have. And I think as the Chief of Staff testified when she was here for the budget, the City has a lot of priorities and they get mixed in and people make decisions on what gets spent.
It doesn't seem the prison is the -- COMMISSIONER KING: Excuse me?
It doesn't seem the prisons are a priority. COMMISSIONER KING: Well, no 17 one wants -- even if you said, Commissioner, you have as much money as you want to build a prison as big as you want, then I have to find a neighborhood that would like to have that prison, and then we have to deal with the bidding and all that. No one wants a jail. I don't think that's the answer. But I just want to finish real 68 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 quickly. Design capacity of RCF is 768. As of June 7, 2007, the census at RCF stood at 811. So we were over the design capacity, and it's been that way for a while. You heard the officer talk about the rooms where four people are. Those are rooms that were not designed for inmates, but we've had to put inmates there. We were at this number even after using every other possible area to house female inmates. We have 125 inmates at a facility next to Holmesburg called the Cannery, and based on the initiation of recent contracts with Liberty Management and Lehigh County, we have female inmates at Liberty and 20 five inmates in Lehigh County. 21 Still with all of the above, we had to start triple celling at RCF. Prior to implementing triple cells, we contacted the union about our plans, and the union requested that we adhere to the 69 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 staff ratios at CFCF until we all had a chance to sit down and discuss the issue. I agreed to that. A meeting was scheduled with the union for the next Wednesday, and again in an act of good faith, we adhered to the union -- the staffing ratios the union thought that we should. The scheduled meeting was cancelled by the union the afternoon before the meeting began, and until Friday, no one responded to our attempts to reschedule this meeting. As a result, the PPS instituted staffing levels we felt were appropriate. This morning we did have a chance to meet. We requested a meeting and are waiting for a briefing with that. And I want to be clear, there is no agreement that states the inmate-to-staff ratio at RCF or CFCF. The union has claimed that the current operational ratio at CFCF of one officer per 64 inmates applies to RCF. It does not. The union has claimed that an 70 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 agreement worked out with former Superintendent David Owens in the 1980s has precedence. It does not. Every jail is different -- and you're welcome -- we welcome visitors at the prison if you'd like to come up and take a look -- is different in design, technical support and the type of inmate that is housed there. There is no single staffing formula that applies to every facility, and we have six facilities and three satellites. The administration is obligated to consider factors of design, technology and risk to deploy staff in a manner that will maintain a safe and secure environment for staff and inmates and allow us to deploy staff more intensely in those close custody jails that require closer supervision. This is not one size fits all. I have addressed above, as much as possible, the exhaustive operational burdens and needs that the Prison System will be incurring in the coming months. 71 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 The Prison System will continue to do everything in its power to deal with this ongoing problem as best as possible in a proactive manner. We are always open to issues, discussing issues, with the union, but it is a two-way street. However, I again close by emphasizing that the problems of the continually rising population will not even begin to be solved until more intense efforts are made by the criminal justice system as a whole to work together in addressing those causes.
Thank you very much. Let me just ask a couple of questions. All of the candidates for Mayor are calling for more police officers, which would mean more arrests and convictions and more inmates in our system. Have you heard any discussion about increasing the staffing levels at the prison? COMMISSIONER KING: In 72 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 connection to that, no, but there was some testimony earlier about our staffing challenges and we do have some -- our last crop of CO candidates, there was -- I don't know what happened, but a lot of them failed the psychological exam back in October after we testified and we really didn't get anybody off the last list that was out. So we currently have a class of 43. I do have authorization from the Administration to hire more COs, over 100 I have the authorization.
How many do you need? What would you need in terms of -- COMMISSIONER KING: I need closer to 250, but the problem --
250 what? COMMISSIONER KING: Extra. Right now we're at about 1,725 and I think the staffing plan calls for 1,950 or something like that. Am I correct? So that's the difference that 73 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 we need. So what we have done is, since we had the problem with that prior list, we met with the Personnel Director, we met with the Managing Director, because what was happening was, we'd get a list, the list would be exhausted, we'd have to implement the recruitment team. We'd have a month to run out before the list closed. We'd do that. So now we have continuous recruiting. So that as soon as Personnel gets enough people who have paid the money for the application, they do a test and we'll get a class. So the goal is to hire as many as we can cram into the Training Academy over the summer. The issue is that the training period is 12 weeks. So if today I hired 150, we were able to get them through the process, we wouldn't have them online for another 12 weeks. And I know that they just gave a test, am I correct -- two Saturdays ago they gave a new test for COs. So we're looking for them to come through. 74 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 So we're trying to keep up with the work that we have to do now, and the union and the officers and I myself are concerned about the fact that the staffing is not where we want it to be, but we're no different -- maybe a little bit different. In my discussions with Commissioner Ayers and people in the Police Department, we're all having trouble recruiting. So we are redoubling our efforts and trying to be strategic about getting out there everywhere we can. We have a full-time recruitment unit out. So in that context, we're doing what we can do to get more officers and we recognize the need. In the context of hiring more police, no, I haven't heard any --
What are the impediments to recruitment? COMMISSIONER KING: Well, the anecdotal conversation, things that I'm hearing from my staff, from people in the 75 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 Fire Department, a lot of it has to do with the fact that people, for example, when you tell them that you can't smoke marijuana and work for the prisons, they have a problem with that. They don't want to sign up to do that. There's a rigorous background check.
Who does the recruitment? COMMISSIONER KING: We have prison COs, correctional officers, social workers and maintenance --
So they're getting this information from people that they talk to about becoming correctional officers? COMMISSIONER KING: Yes. The recruitment unit --
The responses? COMMISSIONER KING: Yeah. They're out full time in the neighborhoods and places where people are looking for jobs trying to recruit folks. 76 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711
Thank you. Have you requested a pre-employment residency requirement waiver from the Civil Service Commission? COMMISSIONER KING: No. 9
Why? COMMISSIONER KING: That's not something the Administration wants to do, as I understand it.
So we can't find the people we need and we're going to continue on -- I'm just talking rhetorically to you. I don't need you to answer. But we're going to continue the process which is not serving us well rather than trying to branch out into other areas where we may have people coming from the military, coming from other areas that are trained, that are disciplined and understand the paramilitary life of these types of jobs and we're going to continue to ask guys 77 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 if they want to stop smoking pot? I mean -- COMMISSIONER KING: Councilman, I agree --
Not that he supports the -- COMMISSIONER KING: No. I think we've tweaked it so we're out there being more strategic about where we go, and I told the recruitment unit I specifically want them to contact people in the armed forces, because there are people who are from Philadelphia who will be coming back looking for work, and we're trying to connect with those people. I talked to the Personnel Director about as long as they do the residency thing, if they have been in the military and they do have a background or have worked in corrections, how do you explain that to people and explain how that will help them, and they may have to come to the prison and go through the Training Academy for 12 weeks, but on 78 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 week 13, they're eligible to take the Sergeant's test or the Lieutenant's test. So we're trying to work within the confines of that. We have to do it a little bit -- it's not exactly the same.
I have given this example before, and I know you're not in control of this, but I have gone to a Phillies game at Citizens Bank Park and seen an NYPD recruiting van -- COMMISSIONER KING: I've seen them, too.
-- parked on the sidewalk trying to recruit people from our city to come up there. So I will send a letter to the Mayor again asking for that consideration, because I think if this is that a crisis situation, we need to kind of change things a little bit. We've done it with the School District. We can do it here as needed. If we don't want to do an overall blanket policy of eliminating the pre-employment residency 79 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 requirement, we should at least be able to do it in crisis. It seems like there's one. COMMISSIONER KING: The other hindrance we have, most people have no 7 idea, they have bad pre-conceived notions about what correctional officers do. I was in the hardware store in Lafayette Hill and I had my prison T-shirt on or whatever it was and they said, Oh, you work at the prison? I said, Yes. I said, We're recruiting. He says, Oh, what, do I come up and beat people down? I mean, this is what the public's view of us is, and that's part of what the recruitment team is out there trying to put a positive light. We've got a whole new section on our web and booklets, and we're trying to do a sort of media thing to make people understand that it's not -- that's not what we do and it's really more 80 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711 sophisticated than that.
You had mentioned earlier in your testimony that there were some arrangements with Lehigh County and Monmouth County. COMMISSIONER KING: Yes.
Do you have any similar arrangements or have pursued similar arrangements with the state correctional system in Pennsylvania? COMMISSIONER KING: We have 90 inmates up at Camp Hill. So they are cooperating with us in that regard.
I understand that maybe anecdotal -- I don't know if it's accurate or not, but Chester apparently is not anywhere near capacity, the state correctional facility there, and that's a pretty short distance to be able to maybe have some synergy with that facility. COMMISSIONER KING: I haven't heard about that one, but I will check into it. 81 6/11/07 - PUBLIC HEALTH - RES. 060711