Committee Hearing, June 3, 2003

Good morning. My name is Kathy Sykes. I'm the Director of Mental Retardation Services for the City of Philadelphia, I'm here in support of this.

Thank you very much for coming. Anyone else to testify on this Bill? (No response.)

Seeing none, thank you very much. We will now move to Bill No. 010500, an Ordinance authorizing the President of Fairmount Park Commission and the Executive Director of 55 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES Fairmount Park, on behalf of the City of Philadelphia, to enter into a ground lease with the Philadelphia Authority for Industrial Development, a body corporate and politic organized and existing under the laws of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, under which the City would lease approximately seven acres of Gustine Recreation Center to PAID and pursuant to which PAID would enter into a ground sublease with Philadelphia Youth Tennis, Inc., a private, not-for-profit corporation organized and existing under the laws of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. Representatives of the Fairmount Park Commission, please.

Good morning.

Good morning. Please identify yourself for the record.

I am Karen Lloyd Borski, Executive Director of Fairmount Park Commission.

Please proceed.

I did prepare a short statement. Maybe that would just be the thing do to do. I'm not sure whether the Department of Recreation is joining me or not. 56 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES

Are there any representatives of the Department of Rec? (No response.)

I think we can proceed.

Please.

I am the Executive Director of Fairmount Park Commission. I'm pleased to be here today to testify in support of Bill 010150 which would authorize the Fairmount Park Commission to have a sublease agreement with the Arthur Ashe Youth Tennis and Education Organization to construct an indoor/outdoor tennis on the grounds of the current Gustine Rec Center. The site of the facility is a 7-acre parcel of park property on Ridge Ave. at the intersection of School House Lane. While the Gustine Recreation Center has become a Mecca for Philadelphia area amateur basketball in the last 30 years, the surrounding grounds provide open space and athletic fields where a huge swimming pool and the original Gustine Lake once stood. The Commission has been working on the tennis center plan with the Arthur Ashe Youth Tennis Center since 2000. There is tremendous benefit to 57 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES be realized by the City and region in making this idea come to fruition. The new state-of-the-art indoor/outdoor tennis facility will support a wide variety of tennis opportunities and serve thousands of children every year. Although the facility is primarily designed for use by young people, the community will also be able to take advantage of the new courts and amenities. Most importantly, however, may be the fact that in concurrence with building the tennis center, the existing recreation center, now 40 years old, will be replaced with a brand-new gymnasium and community center. The new Gustine Center will be a local and regional destination for athletic endeavors and a focal point for the East Falls community activity. On behalf of the Park Commission, I am pleased to express the Commission's support for this project, and I can ensure Council that this project, like all those considered by the Fairmount Park Commission, has been reviewed with the best interest of Fairmount Park, the local community, and the City of Philadelphia as its highest priority. Thank you.

Thank you very much. 58 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES Mr. Bloom, do you have anything to add?`

No, I don't, except to introduce myself. My name is James Bloom, and I'm the Treasurer of the Fairmount Park Commission. Also with us in the audience is Robert Swift who is the President of the Arthur Ashe Youth Tennis and Education Center.

Thank you. Councilman Nutter.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Commissioner Bloom and Director Borski, let me say first I greatly appreciate the amount of time, effort and work that the Commission in general and Commissioner Bloom in particular and Director Borski have put into this, working along with the East Falls Community Council and special committees as well as Philadelphia Youth Tennis or the much longer name which I'll just mess up, so I'll leave it at PYT. We at the same time know that we have still a fair amount of work to do, and I appreciate Commission's action with regard to the lease. But we know we have more work to do on a number of components of the lease. So let me say to you that 59 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES without all the particulars of the document, what I will look to do is move this Bill along through our process. We need to make an amendment to the Bill 5 requiring the final and complete lease to come back to this Council for approval by Resolution. When that document is finalized, at that point you'd then be able to execute it. But we do need to see a full and complete laid-out lease, and that's a particular provision that we utilize, for instance, in our stadium transaction which needed to move along for financing purposes and to get the project going. But ultimately this Council has to see what the particulars are of the fully executed lease. And you can't have a fully executed lease until we see it and approve it by Resolution, which will naturally be a relatively simple and painless process.

Sounds great. Thank you, Councilman. Thank you also for all your help in getting to this point. We will continue to monitor this and move.

Ultimately it's going to be a great project for the neighborhood and for the City. So I think we've taken an important 60 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES step here today. We'll keep this process moving along to completion.

Thank you very much, Councilman.

Thank you very much. I just want to say too, since you've been there, you guys are really doing a good job. Congratulations. With limited resources, which we understand are very limited, but the grass is getting cut and the things are getting fixed and things look much better, so thanks.

Thanks. We love acknowledgments like that.

Anyone else to testify on this Bill? (No response.)

We're going to have to take a two-minute recess until the members of the RDA staff come back from the second floor to the room because we're going to start the urban renewal bills and I'd like to have them standby here to answer any questions. So we'll just take a two-minute break. (Brief recess.) 61 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES

The next Bill for consideration is Bill No. 030283, an Ordinance 4 approving the fifth amendment of the redevelopment proposal of the Franklin Urban Renewal Area, being the area beginning at the intersection of the southerly side of Spring Garden Street and the easterly side of Sixth Street, including the sixth amendment to the urban renewal plan and the relocation plan, which provide, inter alia, for the additional land acquisition of approximately three properties for commercial and related reuses; the provision of certain relocation services, as required by law and declaring the condemnation is not imminent with respect to the Project. Please identify yourself for the record.

My name is Herbert Wetzel, Executive Director of the Redevelopment Authority of the City of Philadelphia.

Please proceed.

Mr. Chairperson and Members of the Committee, I'm here to speak in support of Bill No. 030283, the fifth amended redevelopment proposal and the sixth amended urban renewal plan for the Center City redevelopment area and the 62 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES Franklin Urban Renewal Area. His will Bill authorize the Redevelopment Authority to acquire three properties, two vacate lots and one vacate structure which will be used for commercial and institutional development. All properties will be acquired with bond proceeds from the neighborhood transformation Initiative. The properties will be acquired on behalf of the Philadelphia Chinatown Development Corporation which proposes to construct a mixed-use development that will include a community center and retail uses. Mr. Chairperson and Members of the Committee, I respectfully request favorable consideration of Bill No. 030283 and would ask for the suspension of Council Rules to allow a first reading on June 5, 2003.

Thank you very much. Is there anyone from the Planning Commission here? Mr. Redding?

We should get him though because the Planning Commission has reviewed and approved this, but we can continue and let him come in. 63 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES

He's MIA, so we'll proceed. Anything to add? Anyone to testify on this Bill? (No response.)

Are there any questions for this witness? (No response.)

Seeing none, we move to Bill No. 030295, which is an Ordinance approving the first amendment of the redevelopment proposal for the Jefferson Square Urban Renewal Area, being the area generally bounded by Washington Avenue on the north, South Fourth Street on the east, Dickinson Street on the south and South Sixth Street on the west, including the first amendment to the urban renewal plan and the relocation plan, which provides, inter alia, for the additional land acquisition of approximately 45 properties for residential and related uses; the provision of certain relocation services, as required by law and declaring that condemnation is not imminent with respect to the project. Please identify yourself for the record. 64 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES

My name is Herbert Wetzel, Executive Director of the Redevelopment Authority of the City of Philadelphia. Mr. Chairman and Members of the Committee, I'm here to speak in support Bill 030295, the first amended redevelopment proposal and the first amended urban renewal plan for the Jefferson Square Redevelopment Area and the Jefferson Square Urban Renewal area. This Bill will authorize the Redevelopment Authority to acquire 45 properties, 43 vacant lots and 2 vacant structures, on behalf of the Jefferson Square Community Development Corporation. Jefferson Square CDC plans to use the properties to support a 93-unit homeownership project. The homes would be sold at both affordable and market rates. Mr. Chairperson and Members of the Committee, I respectfully request favorable consideration of Bill No. 030295, and would ask the suspension of Council Rules to allow first reading on June 5, 2003.

Any questions for this witness? 65 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES (No response.)

Anyone else to testify on this Bill? (No response.)

My name is Robbie Maze (ph). I wasn't sure what area that was.

This is an area which is generally bounded by Washington Avenue on the north, South Fourth Street on the east, Dickinson Street on the south and south Sixth Street on the west.

Would that be considered 17th and Annin?

No. 16

Okay. Excuse me.

Please identification yourself.

Good morning, Mr. Chairman and Members of the Committee. I'm Richard Redding, Acting Director of Community Planning Division.

Excuse me. You're testifying on 030283?

295. I should be listed for all of these. I didn't expect testimony to 66 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES begin so soon, so I'm just arriving. Please accept my apologies. I'm here to testify in support of the Bill.

Both Bills?

Yes.

Okay. Thank you. Anyone else to testify on this Bill? (No response.)

Seeing none, we'll move to Bill No. 030296, an Ordinance approving the tenth amendment of the redevelopment proposal for the Whitman Urban Renewal Area, being the area beginning at a point of intersection of the northerly side of Snyder Avenue and the easterly side of Front Street, including the tenth amendment to the urban renewal plan and the amended relocation plan, which provides, inter alia, for the additional land acquisition of one property for residential and related uses; the provision of certain relocation services, as required by law and declaring that condemnation is not imminent with respect to the Project. Please identify yourself.

My name is Herbert Wetzel, 67 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES Executive Director of the Redevelopment Authority of the City of Philadelphia. Mr. Chairperson and Members of the Committee, I'm here to speak in support of Bill No. 6 030296, the tenth amended redevelopment proposal and the tenth amended urban renewal plan for the Whitman Redevelopment Area and Whitman Urban Renewal Area. This Bill would authorize the Redevelopment Authority to acquire one vacate lot located at 372 Cantrell Street for the use as a side of the adjacent owner. The property will be acquired with bond proceeds from the Neighborhood Transformation Initiative. Mr. Chairperson and Members of the Committee, I respectfully request favorable consideration of Bill No. 030296, and would also ask for the suspension of Council Rules to allow first reading on June 5, 2003.

Anyone else to testify on this Bill?

Morning again, Mr. Chairman and Members. Richard Redding, Deputy Director Community Planning testifying in support 030296 for a side yard in the Whitman Urban Renewal 68 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES Area.

Thank you very much. Councilman DiCicco.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If I can just go back to 030295, Jefferson Square ordinance. There are 45 properties, am I correct, Mr. Wetzel?

Yes, 43 vacate lots and 2 vacant structures.

Do we have the addresses of those properties?

We'll get them for you.

I'm pretty sure I know what they are. I want to make certain that there are properties that originally asked to be included in there are in there.

Councilman, the book that you have is sorted a little differently. We'll get you the 45 addresses. These are properties currently owned by Jefferson Square CDC that they acquired from Bankruptcy Court that have clouded title.

These aren't any additions? 69 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES

No. That will come in the fall. These are the 45 properties they acquired from Bankruptcy Court.

Thank you.

Part the problem is the volume of this work for today and yesterday and tomorrow and Thursday morning is creating a very confused record. Now I've got people who have come -- first of all, a lot of people don't even know what the Bill number is that they're here to testify on because they haven't been able to match their property with the Bill. So that's the first confusion. The second confusion is we have people coming to testify for Bills that we've already heard. So the record is going to be jumbled. This is not the way we should be doing this. I know we're stuck with what we're have and we're probably going to walk through this and do it, but this is not the way we should be doing this. This is not the way in which this Council should be dealing with these issues. They're very important issues. They're very complex, some of them, and we have just got a dump truck full of dirt thrown on 70 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES the floor here in the last three or four days and we're trying to wade our way through it. I do not appreciate having to work like this. I don't appreciate having to consider issues like this and to go through and to cast votes in what I think is a responsible way with this type of activity. It's just not fair. Now, if this is what this is going to be forever, I guess there's nothing I can do about it other than express my disdain and concern about this on the record. This is the not the way you should do government. This is not the way we should be doing this. We're stuck and we're going to do your job and work our way through this, but this is unfair and unreasonable. And I think it really stinks compared to what happened yesterday and what's now going to happen now. So I want the record to be clear that this is not the way this should be conducted. I don't need any comment. I would like to ask Mr. Chin if he could come forward because now we're going to go back to Bill 030283 and hear testimony on that. I hope whoever reads this record 71 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES understand, because I don't understand it listening to it. Let the record show this testimony is for Bill No. 030283, which is an Ordinance dealing with the Franklin Urban Renewal Area. So anyone reading this record, please go back a couple pages to see the title of the Bill. Could you please identify yourself for the record.

My name is John chin.

And please, don't think -- you're not at fault here. Don't in any way think anyone here from the public that's testifying is at any fault in any way.

I do want to apologize for being late.

It's fine. It's this room, it's this process, it's just the way life is these days.

My name is John Chin, and I represent the Philadelphia Chinatown Development Corporation. I just want to thank the Rules Committee for allowing us to speak today on behalf of a project that we're trying to develop in 72 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES Chinatown which compromises three properties that's included in the Franklin Urban Renewal Plan today. I just want to state that we are non-profit 501(c)(3) and have been working on this project for several years now. We envisioned this project a little over a decade ago. And these three properties that have been presented to you today are key to the development of the Chinatown Community Center, which is a much-needed facility for our community. We currently have over 4,000 people living in Chinatown with a variety of needs. Many of them are recreation, social, health needs. We have an overcrowded situation in Chinatown which over the last couple years more and more apartments have development so there's less recreation space, less living space for our most concerned population which are senior citizens and youth. So what we're asking you here today is to support the acquisition of these three properties so we can move forward with the development of Chinatown Community Center. We already have funds that have been identified for the development of the center, and this will enable us continue the 73 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES development of it. It will be a combination of commercial and non-profit use at this site and is key to the further expansion and growth of the Chinatown community. So, again, I ask that the Rules Committee support this acquisition request.

Thank you very much.

And I do want to introduce Anna Chan who represents the Chinese Gospel Church in Chinatown, and she will give you a very brief testimony. Thank you.

Please identify yourself.

My name is Anna Chan, C-H-A-N. I'm working the Chinese Gospel Church as an administrator. Dear Honorable Kenney, I'm a member of Chinese Gospel Church, an established church in Chinatown community. I'm asking for yours and your community's support for the proposed amendment to the Franklin Urban Renewal Area as presented by Bill 23 No. 030283 and prepared by the City Planning Commission and to be carried out by Redevelopment Authority of Philadelphia. 74 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES The proposed amendments call for acquisition of three properties. The City assistance in the acquisition is necessary and will allow the Philadelphia Chinatown Development Corporation, PCDC, to move forward on the development of Chinatown North Phase III Project, the Chinatown Community Center. The Center will be mixed-use facility that will address a multitude of social service, health, recreation, language, and cultural education needs of the community. The need for such a facility continues to grow as the emigrant population increase every time. Our church is currently running after school programs for the school-aged immigrants. The program is limited with space as well as no 18 playground facility. The Center will allow us to provide more extensive activities in a safe environment to the children and even the parents. Our church also handles numerous inquiries on social and health issues. Surely, the needs are growing and a centralized community center will be positive for us to handle the needs. Thank you for your time and 75 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES consideration.

Thank you very much for your testimony. Is there any questions for these witness? (No response.)

Seeing none, we thank you for coming in and for your testimony. Do we have a Spanish translator in the room? Because the next Bill I think is a Bill 12 that's going to need it. Going back to our initial problem, many of the people in the room do not know based on the title Bill whether or not their property in fact in that particular proposed ordinance. There's got to be in your testimony some more defined way of allowing people in the room that are sitting here waiting to know that their properties are going to be taken or not. So I need, in addition to when I read the title, I'm going to need a little more information that people can have an understanding whether or not their property on that list. I also need to have this particular Bill or just about every Bill after this translated. 76 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES

You're going to have the titles translated, Mr. Chairman?

What I would like to do -- excuse me.

Sure. Let me ask either the RDA, the Planning Commission or the Secretary of Housing. The gentleman just put up a map. Do we have maps of each of the areas?

Yes.

When the Chairman returns, what we may seek to do is have that map, at least briefly, raised so that people in the audience can see it. And I think most Philadelphians, if they see a mapped area, they can pretty much figure out whether they're in that area or not. You only have one map of each area?

Yes. Would you like us to sort of announce the general neighborhood?

Yes. Just give us more information. The way the Bills are written, or at least the titles of the Bills, do not indicate clearly -- the last Bill, for example, you wouldn't know it was 372 Cantrell unless you had read it. 77 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES

Understood.

And then we're going to do our best to get some translation. Next, Bill 030298, an Ordinance 6 approving the fourth amendment of the redevelopment proposal for the New Kensington and Fishtown Urban Renewal Area, being the area generally bounded by the rear property lines on the northerly side of Lehigh Avenue on the north, the centerline of Delaware Avenue and I-95 on the east, the southerly side of Laurel Street on the south and the rear property lines on the westerly side of Front Street and Kensington Avenue on the west, including the fourth amendment to the urban renewal plan and the second amendment to the relocation plan, which provides, inter alia, for the additional land acquisition of approximately 66 properties for residential and related uses; the provision of certain relocation services, as required by law; and declaring that condemnation is not imminent with respect to the Project. (Title of Bill 030298 read in Spanish.)

Gracias. Please identify yourself for the record. 78 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES

My name is Herbert Wetzel, Executive Director of the Redevelopment Authority of the City of Philadelphia. Mr. Chairperson and Members of the Committee, I'm here to support Bill No. 030298. This Bill involves the New Kensington and Fishtown area. Those are the particular neighborhoods in which the acquisitions will take place. This is the fourth amended redevelopment proposal and the fourth amended urban renewal plan for the new Kensington Fishtown Redevelopment Area in the New Kensington and Fishtown Urban Renewal Area. This Bill would authorize the Redevelopment Authority to acquire 66 properties, 65 the properties are vacant lots and one vacant structure, which will be used for open space and new residential development. All properties will be acquired with bond proceeds from the Neighborhood Transformation Initiative unless otherwise specified. One vacate structure on the 900 block of Marlboro Street will be acquired on behalf of adjacent Frank Spasono (ph) and Joan Morgan for 79 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES rehabilitation rental housing. In this case, the developer will pay for all acquisition and costs. Forty-five vacant lots will be use as side yard, recreation areas and supplemental open space. The properties constitute the fourth phase of the Open Space Management Program and Initiative that the New Kensington Development Corporation and the Office of Housing and Community Development that targets the systematic acquisition and reuse of vacant derelict properties. All acquisition costs will be paid by OHCD. Twenty vacate lots will be acquired for use as side yards by adjacent homeowners in scattered sites throughout Kensington and parts of Port Richmond. Passage of this Bill would lead to the creation of new affordable rental units as well improve in the quality of life for 65 families through the provision of side yards and open space. Mr. Chairperson and Members of the Committee, I respectfully request favorable consideration of Bill No. 030298, and would also ask for the suspension of Council Rules to allow first reading on June 5, 2003.

Thank you very much. 80 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES Any questions for this witness? (No response.)

None. Mr. Redding.

Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and Members. Richard Redding from the City Planning Commission, testifying in support of Bill 8 030298, involving the continuation of the very successful Open Space Program in the Kensington area. This was approved by the Planning Commission at its April meeting of this year. Thank you.

Thank you very much. Sandy Salzman, please.

Good afternoon. I'm sandy Salzman from New Kensington Community Development Corporation, and I'm here to ask your approval for this Bill. As you may know, this side yard program has made a tremendous different in our neighborhood and it has also allowed these properties to be put back on the tax rolls. So we are very thrilled to be having this happen. Thank you.

Thank you very much. 81 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES Any questions for this witness? (No response.)

Anyone else to testify on this Bill? (No response.)

Thank you very much. Bill No. 030299, an Ordinance approving the 14th amendment of the redevelopment proposal for the South Central Urban Renewal Area, being the area beginning at the intersection of the southerly side of Washington Avenue projected and the easterly side of Delaware Avenue, including the 14th amendment to the urban renewal plan and 12 amendment to the relocation plan, which provides, inter alia, for the additional land acquisition of approximately four properties for residential and related reuses; the additional land acquisition of one property for commercial and related reuse; the provision of certain relocation services, as required by law and declaring that condemnation is not imminent with respect to the Project. (Bill 030299 read in Spanish.)

Thank you. Please identify yourself for the record. 82 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES

My name is Herbert Wetzel, Executive Director of the Redevelopment Authority of the City of Philadelphia.

Please proceed.

Mr. Chairperson and Members of the Committee, I'm here to speak in support of Bill No. 030299. The affected areas of this particular Bill are Southwark and -- I'm trying to identify the neighborhood. I generally call it southwest Center City, and I think I might be accurate. This Bill is the 14th amended redevelopment proposal and the 14th amended urban renewal plan for the South Central Redevelopment Area and the South Central Urban Renewal Area. This would authorize the Redevelopment Authority to acquire five vacant lots to be used for side yards, open space, and commercial development. All properties will be acquired with bond proceeds from the Neighborhood Transformation Initiative. Three vacant lots will be acquired for use as side yards by adjacent homeowners. Two of the lots are located in southwest Center City at 1820 and 1824 Christian Street. The third lot is 83 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES located at 1025 South Randolph Street in the Southwark neighborhood. One vacate lot located 939-41 South Third Street will be acquired for use as a community garden. And one vacate lot located at 1212 South Street will be acquired for new commercial development. Upon acquisition the Redevelopment Authority will immediately market the property to a redeveloper. Passage of this Ordinance will lead to an enhanced quality of life for three homeowners through the provision of side yards and numerous families in the Southwark neighborhood through the creation of open space community garden. It will also lead to new commercial development on one of the City's most vital commercial corridors, South Street. Mr. Chairperson and Members of the Committee, I respectfully request favorable consideration of Bill 030299, and would also ask for the suspension of Council Rules to allow first reading on June 5, 2003.

Thank you very much. Mr. Redding.

Good afternoon. Richard 84 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES Redding, City Planning Commission, testifying in support of this Bill 030299 involving a redevelopment proposal in South Central Section. It was approved at the Planning Commission of April of '03. Thank you.

Thank you very much. Is Rob and Lisa Buscaglia here? Before that, though, Kathy please come up for Council President Verna. Please identify yourself for the record.

Good afternoon, Chairman Kenney and Members of the committee. My name Kathleen Murray, and I'm Special Assistant to Council President Verna. As it pertains to Bill No. 030299, there are two referenced properties in the Council President's district in the 1800 block of Christian Street. These properties have recently been sold at Sheriff's Sale and the party for whom the properties had been intended through condemnation has indicated that he cannot pay fair market value, so we will not support the acquisition.

I'm sorry?

We will not support the 85 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES acquisition through eminent domain because they have been purchased through Sheriff's Sale recent. These are two properties on Christian street.

So I understand, do you want the Bill to move forward?

We want the Bill to move forward, but we're just making it known for the record that we can't support the acquisition of those two properties. The Bill, we understand, is to move forward for Councilman DiCicco's properties.

We can amend them out.

If we can amend them out, we would like them amended out.

I'm getting more confused as the day goes on.

Our understanding of the Redevelopment law is that Council is required to approve them as the plan is submitted, but the Declaration of Takings not be filed on these properties.

Mr. Wetzel, could you come back and explain why we're doing what the 86 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES Council President doesn't want us to do, or what the Council President is not supporting.

We had actually initially made the request. And in the interim, they have sold it at Sheriff's Sale.

Let's try to clear up the record. Would Please respond to that or elaborate on that situation?

Yes. Under state statutes a redevelopment proposal that's approved by the Redevelopment Authority Board then goes to the Planning Commission and then is conveyed to Council in the form of an Ordinance. It either has to be accepted or rejected in total or we have to go back and start the process over again. We have historically and will continue with each Council district, if there's something in the ordinance that the Councilperson does not want taken after the ordinance pass, we will not proceed and take that property. Councilman DiCicco, we've worked together on that and the Council President's office recently on that where properties are in an ordinance. I think we're in an area here where real estate is not 87 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES static. Things are changing rapidly. What was vacant lot and tax delinquent three months ago now has been bought at Sheriff's Sale and probably plans for redevelopment. At that point, if the private sector is going to fix up the property, we don't need to take it.

Okay. Would you plead identify yourself for the record.

My name is Rob Buscaglia at 939-941 South Third Street. I'm here to speak in support of Bill No. 030299. I'd like to take this opportunity to thank Chairman Kenney and the Committee on Rules for taking this opportunity to let us present our testimony today. The gardeners have been using the property that I stated at 939-941 South Third Street for the last years. Formerly a vacate lot, 20 trash-strewn, dirty, unsightly, dangerous. The 21 neighbors of the community had erected a fence in 22 the '70s to protect against health and crime issues. 23 And in June of 1980, Philadelphia Green helped the neighborhood start a community garden there, and it's been flushing and existing there for the last 88 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES years due only to the hard work and personal resources of the gardeners and neighbors themselves. Over the course of those 23 years, we've made substantial improvements to the property. We've maintained the property, putting in paths flowers, plants, obviously vegetable gardens, but then also doing things to promote a better community for ourselves, including a trap and spay program for stray cats. And it also has become a center where we commune, where we come together as a community to figure out how we can better improve our neighborhood. And I think over those years we've 14 made significant improvements. In the absent of the 15 land owner, we've made this into a flourishing and 16 vibrant place to live by having green space. 17 The owner has not been around, has not 18 paid taxes that we can tell on the property. And in 19 his absence, we've made it our home. 20 Speaking on behalf of the community, I'd 21 like to list a few of the improvements we have made. 22 We actually cleaned up the rubble and trash left 23 behind from the times to it prior to it being a community garden, you know, daily weeding, the plantings that we've done, made pathways, tool 89 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES sheds, we have a park bench out there, table and chairs. We have a mosaic mural made my Isaiah Zagar that was made in the year 2000 which attracts people from all over Philadelphia, and even visitors. And we've erected a fence to stop the flow of dangerous traffic through the neighborhood. As you can see, it's not just a place where one can go to grow fruits and vegetables or plants, it's a resource to the community. It's a place where we share mutuality. I think that's an important thing kind of left behind in some communities. It's an area that people share together. And that commonality creates a lot of vigilance in our communities. So we're out there and about and people see that there's community there and this isn't a place to just loiter or to commit crime. We've also taken many environmental steps. We recycle our own water. We made a barrel system that collects rain water and we use that for our garden. We've created our own form of recycling program where the neighbors get together and bring cardboard and glass and other recyclables to a recycling center on Saturdays twice a month. And 90 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES then we also partake in the City's Fairmount Park Recycling center rather than buying mulch and compost at a local home center, we use the Fairmount Park Recycling Center for that as well. It's also a place for other community members, workers, church members, neighbors can come to have lunch, to drink their morning coffee, to read a book, to have a quiet barbeque. So we've made this into something much more than just a garden for a few people. It is an actual community green space, recreation space, good for psychological and physical health of the community as well as the financial health of the community. Because we do realize that all of the wonderful commercial and residential development that has happened is very beneficial to us, but at the same time without the green space I don't think that that community has the value that it would have.

And during the time when that wasn't such a nice place to live, that was one of the things that was an anchor of peace and reprieve, and continues to be and it continues to increase the value of our community both ecologically and socially. We'd like to ask on behalf of the 91 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES community garden neighbors and the Queen Village Neighborhood Association that this land be confiscated through the RDA and turned over to the Neighborhood Garden Association who would in turn put in their land trust and let the neighbors use that as ongoing green space.

Thank you. Thank you very much. Mr. Cappello, please come forward. Is Mr. Legacki here? Please identify yourself for the record.

I'm Christopher Cappello, and I live at 1023 South Randolph Street. And I would kindly request that the City acquire the lot at 1025 South Randolph Street on behalf of my wife and me. We've been taken care of the lot for the last two years, made drastic improvements on the land, taken away truck loads of debris. There are five other abandoned lots on our block. And without caretakers of the lots, they add to the blight depresses home values and morale of the neighborhood. I have photo reference, if you would like, but that's all I have to say. 92 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES

Thank you very much. Please identify yourself.

Michael Legacki, representing the South Bodine Street Garden. I'd just like to echo the sentiments stated by Rob Buscaglia earlier, that this is a very important issue for us for quality of life issue in this neighborhood. And I respectfully request that Council approve this Bill.

Thank you very much. Is there anyone else to testify on this Bill? (No response.)

Seeing none, we'll now move to Bill No. 030284, which is an Ordinance 17 approving the first amendment of the redevelopment proposal for the Kingsessing Urban Renewal Area, being the area generally bounded by Chester Avenue on the north, South 52nd Street on the east, the AMTRAK right-of-way line on the south and South 61st Street and 62nd Street on the west, including the first amendment to the urban renewal plan and relocation plan, which provide, inter alia, for the additional land acquisition of approximately 18 93 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES properties for residential and related uses; the provision of certain relocation services, as required by law and declaring that condemnation is not imminent with respect to the Project. (Bill 030284 read in Spanish.)

Thank you. Please identify yourself for the record.

My name is Herbert Wetzel, Executive Director of the Redevelopment Authority of the City of Philadelphia. Mr. Chairperson and Members of the Committee, I'm here to speak in support of Bill No. 030284. The particular section 14 of the it City and neighborhood would be the Kingsessing section of Southwest Philadelphia. This is the first amendment to the Southwest Schuylkill Redevelopment Proposal and the first amendment to the Kingsessing Urban Renewal Plan for the Southwest Schuylkill Redevelopment Area in the Kingsessing Urban Renewal Area. This Bill would authorize the Redevelopment Authority to acquire 18 vacant lots on the 6100 block of Reinhard Street in Southwest Philadelphia. These formerly blighted and trash-strewn lots were redeveloped as green space 94 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES under the Neighborhood Transformation Initiative Early Action Program. A joint initiative of the NTI Office, the Philadelphia Horticultural Society, and the William Penn Foundation. The sites will eventually be conveyed to community organizations for long-term maintenance and use. Mr. Chairperson and Members of the Committee, I respectfully request favorable considerable of Bill 030284 and would ask for the suspension of Council Rules to allow first reading on June 5, 2003.

Thank you very much. Please identify yourself for the record.

Good afternoon. I'm Richard Redding, City Planning Commission, testifying in support of Bill No. 030284, involving a redevelopment proposal which proposes to acquire properties for early action greening in the Kingsessing area. This was approved at the April Meeting of our Commission. Thank you.

Thank you very much. Any questions for these witnesses? (No response.) 95 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES

Anyone else to testify on this Bill? (No response.)

Seeing none, we'll now move to Bill No. 030285, which is an Ordinance 7 approving the third amendment of the redevelopment proposal for the Point Breeze East Urban Renewal Area, being the area generally bounded by the southerly side of Washington Avenue on the north, the westerly side of Broad Street on the east, the northerly side of Moore Street on the south and the easterly side of 20th Street on the west, including the third amendment to the urban renewal plan and the second amendment to the relocation plan, which provides, inter alia, for the additional land acquisition of approximately 119 properties for residential and related uses; the provision of certain relocation services, as required by law and declaring the condemnation is not imminent with respect to the Project. (Bill 030285 read in Spanish.)

Thank you. Please identify yourself for the record.

My name is Herbert Wetzel, 96 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES Executive Director of the Redevelopment Authority City of Philadelphia. Mr. Chairperson and Members of the Committee, I'm here to speak in support of No. 030285. The particular neighborhood or section 6 of the City is the Point Breeze area. The third amended redevelopment proposal and the third amended urban renewal plan for the Point Breeze Redevelopment Area and the Point Breeze Urban Renewal Area. This Bill would authorize the Redevelopment Authority to acquire 118 properties, vacant lots, 53 vacant structures and 15 occupied 14 structures, for residential, commercial, and 15 institutional development. All properties will be acquired with bond proceeds from the Neighborhood Transformation Initiative unless otherwise specified. For home ownership, seven vacant structures on the 1200 block of South 23rd Street will be acquired on behalf of Habitat for Humanity Philadelphia. The properties will be rehabilitated by Habitat volunteers and sold to low and moderate-income families. Three properties, two vacant structures 97 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES and one vacant lot, will be acquired for future residential development by South Philadelphia Homes and other local developers. On rental, 78 properties, vacant 6 lots, 41 vacant structures and 15 occupied 7 structures, will be acquired on behalf of Universal 8 Community Homes. The properties will be part of 9 Universal 16th and Federal Phase III Affordable 10 Rental Housing Development, a plan as a 50-unit 11 rental project to be financed with low-income rental 12 housing tax credits. 13 Commercial and institutional. 14 Twenty-six properties, vacant lots and vacant 15 structure located on the 1300 block of South Capital 16 and the 2000 block of Reed Street will be acquired 17 on behalf of the Mitchum Wilson Funeral Home which 18 is expanding its current business in the Point 19 Breeze community. 20 Four properties, two vacant structures 21 and two vacant lots, located on or near the 1600 22 block of South 20th Street will be acquired on 23 behalf of Tasker Street Baptist Church. 24 Tasker Street Baptist church plans to 25 use the properties to develop a community center and 98 1 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES will provide senior services, child care, and information and referral for community residents. The passage of this Bill will lead to the creation of approximately units of for-sale 6 housing, 50 units of rental housing, new community 7 service space and the expansion of one existing 8 business. 9 Mr. Chairperson and Members of the 10 Committee, I respectfully request favorable consideration of Bill No. 030285 and would ask the suspension of Council Rules to allow first reading on June 5, 2003.

Thank you very much. Mr. Redding.

Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and Members. I'm Richard Redding from the Planning Commission testifying in support of Bill 19 NO. 030285. It was approved at the May meeting of the Planning Commission. It involves acquisitions in the Point Breeze area for a variety of community development projects. Thank you.

Thank you very much. Ms. Murray, please identify yourself.

Kathleen Murray from 99 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES Council President Verna's office. Bill 030285 authorizes the Redevelopment Authority to acquire 119 properties. It is our office's understanding that there are occupied properties contained in 6 this Bill. At this time, we have not reached an 7 agreement on those. So again, we will be asking the 8 Redevelopment Authority to work with them before any 9 Declaration of Taking is filed. Generally, unless 10 there's a compelling to take an occupied property, 11 Council President Verna won't support that. 12 Finally, we have worked with the Tasker 13 Street Baptist Church, Mitchum Wilson Funeral Home 14 and Habitat for Humanity South Philadelphia Homes, 15 and we support those acquisition requests.

What's the Authority's commitment to not taking of property -- as you know, Ms. Murray, once we pass this, they can do whatever they want. So I mean, the sentiment is understood, but I need for the record confirmation of that arrangement.

If we receive any letter from a District Councilperson after an ordinance has been passed, after it's been signed into law by the Mayor to not proceed with the taking of the 100 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES property, Redevelopment Authority will not proceed with the taking of the property.

Thank you very much. Any questions for these witnesses? Councilman Cohen.

Mr. Wetzel, did I hear you make a distinction between District Councilmembers and Councilmembers-at-Large?

Yes, sir. You did hear me say that.

Well, I would say that's totally unacceptable and I will be voting against your efforts. I don't understand how you can distinguish between the powers of the two. I would like you to amend your statement so that it reads that if you have any objection from any Councilmember. You have no power and no right to distinguish between a District Councilmember and a Councilmember-at-Large. And if you want to forfeit seven votes from Councilmembers-of-Large, go ahead and do it and we'll see where it stands.

Mr. Wetzel.

My question, sir, would be if the District Councilperson would like this 101 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES acquisition to proceed and another Councilperson doesn't want it to proceed, who referees?

You let Council make that decision, sir, not you.

I'm just asking a question. I'm not sure how would -- how do I handle that when the District Councilperson says, "I want it to happen" and it's been passed?

You would refer it to the Council President. That would be the Council's problem to deal with.

I can do that.

Well, I would still like to hear a statement that you will honor any Councilmember's objections, at least to the tune of not acting until you get further advise from the Council President.

I'm trying to figure out how to phrase it right. If there is an objection on the taking of any property by any Councilperson and there's any conflict as a result of that objection, as another Councilperson wants to proceed, we would refer that to the Council President's office for disposition. 102 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES Is that acceptable?

Thank you. We have know distinctions. We in Council recognize certain priorities that go with different offices, whether it's Council-at-Large or District Council. But that's for Council to make the decision on. Thank you.

Thank you very much. Abdur Rahim Islam, if he's here. I don't think he's here, but if there is any other representatives from Universal Companies. Good afternoon.

Good afternoon.

Please identify yourself.

My name is Earl Pace, and I represent Universal Community Homes. We're here in support of this item because it's a part of the Universal project to build 400 housing units over the next five years. That will be for low and moderate-income properties. This passage at this time would enable the tax credits to applied for in October, and it wil result in 50 units that will have 12 two-bedrooms, 28 three-bedrooms, and 10 103 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES four-bedroom units. And we will be decreasing the density in the area provided off-street parking, energy inefficient homes. And we encourage you to support this.

Thank you very much. Any questions for this witness? (No response.)

None. We'll ask Claudia Sherrod, if she's here. Or Charlene Wilson-Doffoney.

Please identify yourself for the record.

Claudia Sherrod, the President of the Point Breeze Community Development Coalition and the Executive Director of South Philadelphia Homes.

Please proceed.

I support the present Bill 20 intact, providing any amendments that City Council President has to go along with the changes.

Thank you. Please identify yourself.

Charlene Wilson-Doffoney, Funeral Director, Mitchum-Wilson 104 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES Funeral Home.

And you're in favor of the Bill also?

I'm in favor of the Bill also.

Thank you very much for coming in. Alice Sheppard and Tim Block. Is Mr. Block here? Please identify yourself.

Good afternoon. I'm Alice Sheppard, I'm from Tasker Street Baptist Church and the Tasker Street Baptist Church Community Organization. We support this Bill.

Thank you. Sir.

My name Robbie Maze. I own property on 17th and Annin, which is 1651 Annin. I can appreciate what they doing in the area because I'm a property owner, but I would like to exclude my property because I'm trying to do something also. I was there before they built them properties in the area, fixing up the area, and I wanted to know if it's any way possible I can get some help to exit my 105 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES property in it. It's not vacant. I'm living in the property. It's not like an eyesore in the property.

Is Kathy Murray still here? She just left. If you want to wait here a few minutes, and then we'll hook you up with Council President office and I'm sure they can accommodate you. Anyone else to testify on this Bill? (No response.)

Seeing none, we'll move to Bill No. 030286, which is an Ordinance 14 approving the first amendment of the redevelopment proposal for the 45th and Sansom Urban Renewal Area, bing the area generally bounded by Chestnut Street on the north, South 44th Street on the east, Walnut Street on the south and Farragut Street on the west, including the first amendment to the urban renewal plan and the first amendment to the relocation plan, which provides inter alia, for the additional land acquisition of approximately 19 properties for residential and related uses; and provision of certain relocation services, as required by law and declaring that condemnation is not imminent with 106 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES respect to the Project. Please identify yourself for the record.

My name is Herbert Wetzel, Executive Director of the Redevelopment Authority of the City of Philadelphia. Mr. Chairman and Members of the Committee, I'm here to speak in support of Bill No. 030286. The neighborhood or section of Philadelphia would be University City. The first amended redevelopment proposal and first amended urban renewal plan for the 45th and Sansom Redevelopment Area in the 45th and Sansom Urban Renewal Area. This Bill would authorize the Redevelopment Authority to acquire properties, 18 15 vacant structures and 1 occupied structure, which 16 will be used for residential development. All 17 properties will be acquired with bond proceeds from 18 the Neighborhood Transformation Initiative. The 19 19 properties which are located on the 4500 block of Sansom Street and the 100 block of South 46th Street are to be acquired on behalf of the Partnership CDC. The properties will support the development of 11 single-family town homes and 8 duplex condominium units which will be sold both at affordable and market rates. 107 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES The passage of this Bill will lead to the creation of new homeownership opportunities 4 for families in the University City community. 5 Mr. Chairperson and Members of the 6 Committee, I respectfully request favorable 7 consideration of Bill No. 030286, and would ask the 8 suspension of Council Rules for a first reading on 9 June 5, 2003. 10

Thank you very much. 11 Mr. Redding. 12

Hello. Richard Redding 13 from City Planning Commission, testifying in support 14 of Bill 030286, involving the housing rehab 15 initiative in the 45th and Sansom vicinity. This 16 was approved at the April meeting of the Planning 17 Commission. And previously the Planning Commission 18 produced a blight report and redevelopment area plan 19 to facility the rehab initiative thank you.

Thank you very much. Any questions for these witnesses? (No response.)

I Mr. Stoddart in the room or anyone from The Partnership CDC? (No response.) 108 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES

Is there anyone else to testify on this bill? (No response.)

Seeing none, we'll move to Bill No. 030287, which is an Ordinance 7 approving the eighth amendment of the redevelopment proposal for the West Mill Creek Urban Renewal Area, being the area beginning at a point on the southerly se of Haverford Avenue, 373 feet more or less, west of the westerly side of 43rd Street, including the seventh amendment to the urban renewal plan and the relocation plan, as amended, which provides, inter alia, for the additional land acquisition of approximately properties for residential and 16 related uses; the provision of certain relocation 17 services, as required by law; and declaring the 18 condemnation is not imminent with respect to the 19 Project. 20 Pleas identify yourself for the record 21 and explain to me what "more or less" is. Not 22 exactly a very precise term. 23

I think it's exactly what 24 it is, more or less. 25

Okay. Please 109 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES proceed.

My name is Herbert Wetzel, Executive Director of the Redevelopment Authority of the City of Philadelphia. Mr. Chairperson and Members of the Committee, there are actually two ordinances that affect the Mill Creek area. This is the first. The second one is 030289. That's because there are two separate urban renewal areas for this project area. Mr. Chairperson and Members of the Committee, I'm here to speak in support of Bill No. 13 030288, the eighth amendment to the redevelopment proposal and the seventh amendment to the urban renewal plan for the West Philadelphia Redevelopment Area and the West Mill Creek Urban Renewal Area. This Bill would authorize the Authority to acquire properties, 19 vacant lots, 3 vacant 19 structures and 3 occupied structures, for 20 residential development. All properties will be 21 acquired with bond proceeds from the Neighborhood 22 Transformation Initiative. 23 The 25 properties will be acquired on 24 behalf of the Philadelphia Housing Authority in 25 support of the Mill Creek Hope 6 Revitalization 110 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES Project. The project will create 125 new affordable rental units and 60 units of affordable for-sale house. Mr. Chairperson and Members of the Committee, I respectfully request favorable consideration of Bill No. 030287, and would also ask the suspension of Council Rules to allow first reading on June 5, 2003. Mr. Redding.

Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and Members. I'm Richard Redding from the Planning Commission supporting 030287, involving acquisition in support of the rebuild and redesign the Mill Creek public housing and surrounding neighborhood. It was approved by the Planning Commission at its April meeting. Previously, the Planning Commission prepared a blight report and redevelopment area plan for the same area. Thank you.

Thank you very much.

For the purposes of those who came out today, there are three property addresses that I have of the three occupieds in this 111 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES particular Bill. Would you like to have them read?

Is there anyone here in the room whose property is involved in this particular Bill?

708 North 44th Street, 716 North 44th Street, and 726 North 44th Street.

Anyone affiliated with that property. (No response.)

Seeing none. Is there any representative here from the Housing Authority? Is there anyone representing State Representative Horsey here? He had requested an opportunity to testify. If not, is there anyone else to testify on this Bill?

Seeing none, we'll move to Bill No. 030288, an Ordinance approving the redevelopment proposal of the Redevelopment Authority of the City of Philadelphia for the redevelopment of the 44th and Aspen Urban Renewal Area being the area generally bounded by Lancaster Avenue, Belmont Avenue, Pennsgrove Street, 42nd 112 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES Street, Haverford Avenue, 44th Street, Fairmount Avenue and 47th street; approving the urban renewal plan and determining that such plan and redevelopment proposal conform to the general locality plan and make adequate provisions for individuals, business concerns and families who are displaced; determining the necessity for changes in and for zoning, streets, alleys, public ways, street patterns, location and relocation of public utilities; determining that the urban renewal plan and redevelopment proposal meet all non-discrimination requirements of Federal, State and Local Laws and the regulations and policies promulgated with respect thereto; declaring that certain expressly designated and provided for condemnation is not imminent with respect to the Project; and declaring the redevelopment undertakings in the Project to be an important part of the City's program to remove and prevent and spread of urban blight.

My name is Herbert Wetzel, Executive Director of the Redevelopment Authority of the City of Philadelphia. Mr. Chairperson and Members of the 113 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES Committee, I'm here to speak in support of Bill 3 030288. Again, this would be considered the Mill Creek neighborhood of West Philadelphia, which authorizes the redevelopment proposal and urban renewal plan for 44th and Aspen Redevelopment Area and the 44th Aspen Urban Renewal Area. This Bill would authorize the Redevelopment Authority to acquire 339 properties, 207 vacant lots, 66 vacant structures and 66 occupied structures, for residential redevelopment. All properties will be acquired with bond proceeds from the Neighborhood Transformation Initiative. 326 properties, 204 vacant lots, 66 vacant structures and 66 occupied structures will be acquired on behalf of the Philadelphia Housing Authority in support of the Mill Creek Hope 6 Revitalization Project. The project will consist of approximately 125 affordable rental units and 60 units of affordable for-sale housing. Three vacant lots will be acquired on behalf of Saint Ignatius Nursing Home. The lots will become part of a larger redevelopment plan which calls for the construction of 180-unit rental apartment building for low and moderate-income seniors. 114 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES Passage of this Bill would lead to the creation of approximately 60 new ownership homes, 125 rental units, and 180 units of affordable housing for senior citizens. Mr. Chairperson and Members of the Committee, I respectfully request favorable consideration of Bill No. 030288 and would ask the suspension of Council Rules to allow first reading on June 5, 2003.

Thank you very much. Please identify yourself.

Good afternoon again. I'm Richard Redding, Deputy Director, Community Planning Division, speaking in support of Bill 030288, involving creation of a new urban renewal area in the 44th and Aspen and Mill Creek area of West Philadelphia. It was approved at the April meeting of our Commission. Thank you.

Thank you very much. The Chair recognizes Councilmember Cohen.

This is probably directed to you Mr. Wetzel. For years now we've been having these kinds of ordinances, and Council 115 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES has dutifully done its part to make this possible. I'm wondering, do you have idea of how many people in Philadelphia or how many families there are that are living in homes as a result of this kind of legislation? What have we done in Philadelphia?

Councilman, I can get you a list of that, but it's in the thousands.

Could you get something to present it the next time we have a hearing on this kind of matter?

Well, actually, I'd like to get it to you before that.

That would be helpful.

There are literally thousands of units both rental and affordable rental and homeownership and seniors and special needs housing projects that have come from this type of action.

Because I think that would be the most dramatic kind of evidence to tell us whether what we're doing has any meaning or not.

Would it be acceptable that if we said urban renewal taking, this location, 50 116 06/03/03 - COMMITTEE ON RULES homeownership units were built; urban renewal taking, this location, 28 senior citizens rental units; would that be an acceptable format to you?

That would be if at the end of it a total.