COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC SAFETY Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Tuesday, May 28, 2024 10:00 a.m. PRESENT: COUNCILMEMBER CURTIS JONES, JR. COUNCILMEMBER QUETCY LOZADA COUNCILMEMBER JAMIE GAUTHIER COUNCILMEMBER JIM HARRITY BILLS 240280, 240330, 240472 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC.
This is a committee of public safety on hearing on the following bills, Bills Number 240280, 240330 and 240472. Mr. Glass, would you please read the title of the bill?
Yes, Mr. Chairman. Bill Number 240280, amending Chapter 10 10-2200 of the Philadelphia Code, entitled Hate Crimes. To expand the scope of qualifying crimes, all under certain terms and conditions. And Bill Number 240330, amending Chapter 21-1200 of the Philadelphia Code, entitled Citizens Police Oversight Commission. To modify the procedure for which members of the Citizens Police Oversight Commission may be removed, providing a procedure to suspend members and clarifying terms in that chapter, all under certain terms and conditions. And Bill Number 240472, amending Chapter 10-2000 of the Philadelphia Code, entitled Unlawful Manufacturer of Firearms. To add restrictions relating to rate of fire acceleration devices, all under certain terms and 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. conditions.
Thank you, Mr. Glass. We have a quorum represented by Member Lozada, Member Gauthier, and Member Harrity. Thank you all for your attendance. I'm going to start with the hate crime --
-- bill. And I'm going to say this, I've wore a pin today. It is the Pennsylvania Human Relations Commission pin of which I am a member. And our theme at the Commonwealth is no hate in our state. And the reason we chose that, it doesn't matter whether you're Christian, whether you're Jewish, whether you're Muslim, or any other described religion, you should not be victimized by crime based on that. And this bill will attempt to address that, whether it's a pig's head at a mosque, or hateful swastikas in a synagogue, or whether it's people entering a church that believe they're safe based on the location of their worship. But we need to tighten that up a bit. And with that, we will take a look at increasing what the 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. definitions of hate crime are in the city of Philadelphia. With that, are there any other members to talk about this particular bill?
Mr. Chairman, our first panel will be Deputy Commissioner Francis Healy of the Philadelphia Police Department, Jason Holtzman of the Jewish Federation of Greater Philadelphia, and Timothy Welbeck, Esquire from CAIR Philadelphia.
Welcome, welcome. Please come to the testimony table. Have a seat. And we will begin in the order in which you were called. (Witnesses approached witness table.)
Good morning. ATTORNEY WELBECK: Good morning. DIRECTOR HOLTZMAN: Good morning.
Is your mic working? 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. ATTORNEY WELBECK: Seems so. DIRECTOR HOLTZMAN: Yes, Councilman.
Okay. You've been here before state your name for the record, and please begin your testimony. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HEALY: My name is Deputy Commissioner Francis Healy on behalf of the Philadelphia Police commissioner. Good morning, Council Member Jones and Vice Member Lozada -- I'm sorry. She's not here. My name is Francis Healy, as I mentioned, Deputy Commissioner, Philadelphia Police Department Chief of Staff and Legal Affairs. First, on behalf of Commissioner Bethel, thank you and the Philadelphia for allowing the police department to voice its opinion regarding Bill Number 240280, which amends the Philadelphia Hate Crimes to Ordinance. The amendments being made to Chapter 21 10-2200 relating to hate crimes may appear minor on their face, but they are rather substantial and regrettably, necessary. And it's for this reason that the Philadelphia Police Department supports these amendments to the code. We can 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. all agree that there can be no sanctuary for hate in our society, nor in our laws. It's incumbent upon our elected officials to act swiftly, in unison and decisively when hate finds any loopholes in our laws. This body, through the leadership of Chairperson Jones, has clearly acted swiftly with his colleagues to close such a loophole, and is why these minor edits being debated here are so substantial. In a nutshell, the current ordinance defines hate as being directed towards individuals or groups of individuals, but does not include businesses in that definition. Nonetheless, hate against the business because of the actual perceived sexual orientation, gender, gender identity, disability, age, ethnicity, color, race, religion, or national origin of the business owners is no less offensive. We know that the owners of small businesses put their blood, sweat and tears, and often their entire life savings into these businesses so that they can make a better life for their families. This is the American Dream. And these 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. businesses, just as individuals, have a right to be free from hate to operate freely. No business should be targeted or vandalized simply because the actual or perceived sexual orientation, as I mentioned, gender, gender identity, disability, age, and religion or the national origin of the business owners. So, as I mentioned, these code amendments offered here in the bill, although technically minor, are in fact, quite substantial. With the addition of just a few words, this body has increased the umbrella against hate exponentially for each and every business in the city. And for this reason, the PPD supports this bill. I'm happy to answer any questions at this time.
Thank you so much for your testimony. We're going to hold questions until this panel gets to testify. I believe the Jewish Federation was next.
Yes, Mr. Chairman. Jason Holtzman of the Jewish Federation of Greater Philadelphia. DIRECTOR HOLTZMAN: Good morning, 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. Chairman Jones --
Morning. DIRECTOR HOLTZMAN: -- and other esteemed members of council. My name is Jason Holtzman, and I serve as the director of the Jewish Community Relations Council, JCRC, of the Jewish Federation of Greater Philadelphia. Today I stand before you to express our gratitude for the opportunity to address the council and advocate for the passage of City Council Bill 12 Number 240280. This crucial bill aims to broaden the definition of hate crimes encompass offenses committed against businesses. As a representative of the Jewish Federation, I wholeheartedly endorse this initiative, recognizing its significance in safeguarding our community and promoting a more inclusive and secure environment. Over the past seven months, our city has witnessed a disconcerting surge in attacks, specifically targeting Jewish institutions and Jewish owned businesses. These incidents extend beyond mere acts of vandalism. They constitute 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. deliberate acts of intimidation aimed at our community. One incident underscores the urgency of addressing this issue. Makom Community, an after-school program located at 20th Sansom, fell victim to such an attack. Vandals defaced the front window with the message Free Palestine. However, this act transcended mere graffiti. It was a targeted act designed to instill fear and convey a hostile message to the Jewish community. In response, the resilient owners of Macomb Community covered the hateful words with a powerful counter message, "We all deserve peace and safety. Happy Hanukkah. Let your light shine." Their courage exemplified our community's unwavering commitment to peace and unity, even in the face of hatred. Businesses are more than just economic entities. They are integral threads in our social fabric. When they suffer, the entire community feels the impact. By expanding the definition of hate crimes to include offenses against businesses, we send a resounding message, Philadelphia Stands United Against Hate. This 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. legislative step reinforces our collective commitment to protecting all residents, regardless of their affiliations. In passing Bill Number 240280, Philadelphia City Council will take a decisive stand against hate driven violence. We implore you to consider the broader implications, safe and respectful environments for all businesses, irrespective of their backgrounds. Let us demonstrate that Philadelphia remains a city where everyone can thrive in peace and safety. Thank you for your time and thoughtful consideration.
Thank you for your testimony. We'll end with CAIR. ATTORNEY WELBECK: Good morning, Council. My name is --
Morning. ATTORNEY WELBECK: Good morning. My name is Timothy Welbeck, and I am appearing in my capacity as a civil rights attorney for the Council on American Islamic Relations, Philadelphia Chapter. And I come to you today in support of Bill 240280 which will expand the 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. definition of hate crimes in our city. As my colleagues have already mentioned so far, this bill will bring forth decisive and necessary action to ensure that Philadelphians are safe and able to live and exist freely within our city. As you all well know, the express intent of state law currently adds a sentencing enhancement as a deterrent for the commission of crimes, serious crimes that is motivated by hatred towards the members of a protected class. In English, what that means is that our state has determined that there needs to be an enhancement for sentencing when someone commits a crime against someone based on who they are, their race, their religion, their ethnicity, their national origin, their sexual orientation and the like. And the state rightfully also has included sacred institutions as well, knowing that those at times can become targets of those who exhibit hatred. We've seen that in our own state with the attack on Tree of Life Synagogue in Pittsburgh. We've seen that nationally with the attack on Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. Church in South Carolina. We ask that you extend the definition of hate crimes to include individual businesses, in part because they are not only vital institutions within communities, but they also express and communicate vital viewpoints within the communities. And beyond that, they can become targets for the same level of harassment, intimidation and hatred. I ask you to consider, for example, the repeat vandalism on Lombard Cafe in Society Hill. The owner, Jasmine Amira Taibi-Bennoui, is a respected community member who has created a business that is a beacon in her community. And when she began to voice her support for some of what is happening to Palestinians in Gaza, her business was not only repeatedly attacked, but she feels as though her livelihood was attacked as it relates to that. As, again, my colleagues had mentioned, attacks in this way bring forth a sense of intimidation and fear, and they also convey a sense of hostility towards people just because of who they are. 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. We have said that we are a city where hate should not be, that there should be no hate in the city of Philadelphia, and we believe that this is a necessary step in ensuring that will happen. So with that, we today to voice our support for this bill. Thank you for your time.
Thank you so very much for your testimony. Commissioner Healy, is there an increase leveling or decrease in hate crimes in Philadelphia? And it doesn't have to be, what is your general gut. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HEALY: I'm sorry. Was that to me? I'm sorry I didn't hear that part. I apologize.
Pull the mic to. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HEALY: I don't have the numbers but there has been an uptick. Yes.
And so is that over the last year? Is it over the last two years? I mean, when did you see the spike? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HEALY: I can get back to you with more accurate numbers. I just 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. don't have them here. I wasn't prepared for numbers.
Okay. There's a saying that if you want to clean up the world, start sweeping under your own feet, and I hope that this legislation actually starts that process, that if we don't tolerate hate here, maybe that'll spread other places. I don't want to do the "some of my best friends are" thing, but my neighbors live next door to a rabbinical school, and they're some of the greatest neighbors I've ever had. And they look out for me, and I look out for them. And nobody should be victimized in your place of worship or your place of business based on your ethnic beliefs or your religion. So, colleagues, do you have any other questions for this panel? Member.
Just one. When we bring these people in, how often do we find that they actually are a hate crime? And it's just not just random people who didn't target any specific business but just wanted to act inappropriately? How often does that happen? 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HEALY: I'll allow my colleagues here to answer, but a lot of times depends upon the investigation. Sometimes these individuals may have issues, and not necessarily whether or not it's hate related or not, but nonetheless, for the people who receive it, I mean, it's still intimidating, threatening and harassing. So oftentimes, the intent of the perpetrator is not necessarily known by the victim. But for of times, we see places where it's individuals that are suffering from other types of disorders or issues and act out in this way. But a handful of folks that act out of hate, and those are the ones we actually target. Yes. Those that are acting out of other issues. We try to connect them with mental health services.
Thank you. Member Gauthier. ATTORNEY WELBECK: If I may add to that too, what I would say is that there are, at times, clear signals and symbols that signify 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. hatred towards targeted groups. If one were to put a swastika on a Jewish-owned business, that sends a clear signal of hatred that's targeted towards a specific group. If one were to burn a cross in front of a business owned by a black person, it sends a specific signal that's steeped in history. And so while there may be underlying issues as well, we believe that there is a need to target this type of hatred that sends a historic signal, in part because of the fear, the terror, the dread that accompanies it.
And I think that's important, right. That this bill is not - - we're not targeting a specific community, right. We're not saying this is a bill to support hate crimes against a Jewish business or an Italian business, a Latino business. This bill will allow for us to address hate crime in general. And I just wanted to make sure that we put that on the record, because what I don't want is for folks to say, you guys are just putting this legislation together for this specific 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. population of people or for this community of folks. And so we want to make sure that people understand that Philadelphia welcomes and supports all businesses, right? We support and welcome all people, and hate is not tolerated here.
I don't have a question. I just wanted to commend the councilmember for taking action on this issue. This has been such a difficult time because it feels like we don't have a lot of local control over the atrocities that we're seeing in the Middle East. But we do have control, to a large degree, over keeping our people safe. And that's why I think this is important. In my district, for example, I know I've worked with care around not the defacement of a business, but the defacement of Masjid Al- Jamia in West Philadelphia. And that was 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. heartbreaking to me because people should feel safe at home, people should feel safe in their place of worship, and no one should feel a target based on their race or their ethnicity. And similarly, I've been disheartened and disappointed by some of the targeting that I've seen of Jewish businesses in our city. And so think this is a way of helping to keep our people safe at home. And I commend you for taking this up. And thank you to all of you for testifying.
Councilman Jones, I like to also thank you for putting this in. It's no secret me and Senator Street are best friends, and we talk about the race issue quite often. We actually have a little running joke that we like to say that when the aliens come, we'll learn that there's only one race, the human race, and all the color of your skin represents is where your ancestors came from on the planet. If you came from someplace hot, you're 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. dark. If you come from someplace cool and rainy, you're white. And other places mean you're in between. For me, grown up in mixed neighborhoods my whole life. One thing I know about living in Kensington is there's no real color in a poor neighborhood except green. If you come into my neighborhood with my neighbors, they treat me the same as they treat every other neighbor on the block. Not saying that we get along all the time. We have disagreements, but when it comes down to it, we stick together because we know we're all in the same group, and that is low-income and poor people. For me, the fact that it's 2024 and we're still talking about race is just utterly ridiculous. I understand that things in the past that were not right were done. I get that. But I believe I'd like to see one day a place here in Philadelphia where race doesn't mean anything because it doesn't mean anything. I don't care what color you are. I don't care what sex you are. I don't care who you are. If you're a good person, I'm going to be good to you. And that's 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. all it's about. For me is, if we're going to judge anybody on anything, it should be on whether you're a good person or you're not a good person. So I thank you, Councilman Jones, and respect everything you're doing in this space.
Well said, well said. Member -- (microphone malfunction) Okay. Thank you. So I was at a mural dedication in Manayunk last week. And all of the young people were in the schoolyard, sitting in there. And they were cheering and they were happy and they were ready and pointing out where they had painted their splotch of paint on the mural. And if Martin Luther King could have realized his dream, what he was looking at, it was that schoolyard. There were Jewish kids next to Muslim kids, next to Christian kids, next to black kids, next to Hispanic kids. And I don't even think they knew the difference, nor cared. And if we as adults had set that example, that the content of the character as opposed to the origin of the skin or the religion, I think we will do 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. ourselves a service. I'm not going to preach because we got a lot of an agenda today. But I want to thank you all for your testimony. Any other questions from the panel? No. Thank you for your testimony. ATTORNEY WELBECK: Thank you. DIRECTOR HOLTZMAN: Thank you.
Mr. Chairman, our next panel will be Anthony Erace, deputy executive director of the Citizens Police Oversight Commission. Commissioner Rosaura Torres-Thomas of the Citizens Police Oversight Commission. And Commissioner Hassan Bennett of the Citizens Police Oversight Commission. (Witnesses approached witness table.)
Okay. Welcome. So I'll start out by saying that Philadelphia, in my opinion, has not experienced yet it's George 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. Floyd moment. We had some, but not to the degree that it could be. And it could be worse. And I don't want it to get worse, is the point. And it's important that this commission be armed with the ability to be that nonpartisan, independent organization to be able to look at the processes in the city of Philadelphia both police-citizen involvement, to be able to say, "This was right. This was wrong. This is how we do it better." And with that, that's the spirit of this legislation. So with that, can we begin testimony in the order in which Mr. Glass called.
Anthony Erace. DEPUTY DIRECTOR ERACE: Thanks, everybody. And good morning.
Morning. DEPUTY DIRECTOR ERACE: Good morning, Committee chair, Co-chair, and Members of Council. My name is Anthony Erace and I am the deputy executive director of the Citizens Police Oversight Commission. We are here today to enthusiastically support the proposed amendment to the CPOC ordinance, and we are grateful to Councilmember Jones for his leadership in this 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. process. Like any fledgling agency, the necessity of process changes becomes apparent as experience is gained. And while this is the first adjustment to our founding legislation, it probably won't be the last. This amendment modifies the removal mechanism for the CPOC board of commissioners, allowing the commission to address serious misconduct issues should they arise. Secondly, the amendment provides an important clarification of the terms in the ordinance. These changes will help our young agency to continue to grow and fulfill the important duties we are tasked with. The ordinances existing removal mechanism applies only to situations where a member of the commission is being removed for cause. This means misconduct, inability or failure to perform required duties or ethical violations. The ordinance also requires that any person being removed have due process protections, including notice and the opportunity to be heard at a hearing. All of these important 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. provisions remain the same. Under the existing process, only City Council can remove a member of the commission imploring a process that can be time consuming and difficult to navigate given the magnitude, scope and volume of City Council responsibilities. This amendment creates an interim step that allows the board of commissioners to address serious misconduct by voting to remove a member where necessary with the same due process protections. Furthermore, the removal would not be finalized until City Council has had the opportunity to vote to supersede that removal. The suspension mechanism simply allows time for a complete and thorough investigation into any alleged misconduct or allows time for City Council to review the board's removal vote. Suspension allows the commission to protect confidential information during that process. In addition, the amendment clarifies definitions, including both the board of the Citizens Police Oversight Commission and the department, meaning PPD. Thank you for your time 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. and attention, and I'd be happy to answer any questions.
So we will listen to the entire panel and then open up for questions, if that's the will of the group.
Mr. Chairman, our next witness will be Commissioner Rosaura Torres- Thomas.
Welcome. COMMISSIONER TORRES-THOMAS: Good morning, counsel.
Good morning. COMMISSIONER TORRES-THOMAS: Sorry. Councilmen and Women, thank you so much for having me here. When I was appointed as your commissioner for the 15th District, I was proud and honored. This is a volunteer for me. I do not make a salary, but I humble myself in my position. I can confirm with you if you review the CPOC meeting on April 27th of 2023, you will see the pushback and the resistance that we have received from staff. And this has been ongoing. I am disappointed because I witnessed a staff 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. member's husband physically put his hand on a citizen. And when I heard her scream, I ran and put my body between them. I'm old. I'll be 65 next year. And my intention is not to glorify my resume or to be this politician. No offense. I just want to retire along with my husband and be at peace. I'm a bit nervous, but my confidential letter to inspector general was released to the person that was being investigated. And I have asked, how was my letter able to get to this person? Because the only person I shared my letter with was the inspector general, Jahlee Hatchett, our chair, and Anthony Erace. I was verbally attacked at town hall meetings, not by citizens, not by police officers, but by staff. Commission of PA was to witness, and so was my husband, Michael. When I witnessed that incident at Marian Anderson Rec Center, my husband was there. I am visually impaired, but one thing I would not stand by is to witness a huge man put his hands on a tiny woman. I was not going to stand back and let that happen. So I intervened. 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. As a survivor of domestic violence, we do not blame, shame, and guilt a survivor. We support them and that's not what I noticed. I was told that I put this family in turmoil because of my letter. I don't feel that I put the family in turmoil. Sadly, this gentleman putting his hands on this woman is why they're in turmoil. I have received fictitious, bogus subpoenas wanting to review my emails. If you want to find out what I witnessed and what I saw, you need to subpoena Anthony Erace's emails and Taleah Grimmage emails. They are the ones that sent me horrible emails in regards to citizens. CPOC was created to help the citizens in the City of Philadelphia, not to glorify their salaries, but to help the citizens. And believe me when I say this, Citizen 1 is not the only person that has reached out to me. Even last night, I was called about another incident and to call them crazy, mental, combated, argumentative, and that they need psychiatric help, I don't know any survivor who has been through any trauma who has -- who needs psychiatric help. 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. And for them to say that makes me think they're not for the people. I may be commissioner for the 15th, but I feel that I am commissioner for the entire city. So sometimes you'll know if I'm in Kensington, that's my old neighborhood. Even to the point when I attended the Eddie Irizarry rally, I was questioned. Was I at the press conference? No, I was at the rally, that is my old neighborhood back in the '60s, and I was there in support of the community and the family of Eddie Irizarry. But I felt that nothing I did -- if I spoke too much, if I said too much, if I asked too many questions, I was wrong. If this attacking me, am I safe? Am I safe as one of your commissioners? Because not the citizens, not the police department, but the staff come at me. And I thought, "I'm not going to give up. I'm not going to stand by. " And I know that the reason why this bill was brought to your attention was to remove me. But I'm standing strong, and I'm standing for the people in the city of Philadelphia, not for 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. myself. So I want to thank you for allowing me to speak as quickly as I could. But this has been a bit frustrating and sad for me because we were created to help the citizens in the city of Philadelphia.
Thank you for your testimony. We'll wait until the final testifier on this panel, and then we'll go in. COMMISSIONER BENNETT: Good morning, councilmembers. I'm Hassan Bennett as was announced. Commissioner Elder DeBouse titles me the chapter and vice commissioner. And that's basically because I support everything by some type of document or quote from prior hearings or prior interactions. So I'll start with that. The day of our appointment, we were warned with the following. Thank you to all those willing to serve, because this is going to be work. It's going to be hard work. Then Council President Clark added, "Sometimes people say, be careful what you wish for." Right? Commissioners have felt the weight of every syllable of that quote. 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. Yet we stand here today committed to our duties to the city of Philadelphia, and the city should expect nothing less. But what happens when a commissioner falls short of these expectations? What happens when a commissioner deviates from the quorum's vote and becomes a liability? With the proposed legislative amendment as Council has entrusted commissioners with uphold in the legislation, Section 21-1203 Subsection 7 of this amendment is kind of a relief. April 18th, 2022, you, Councilman Jones, informed us all a half a million people agreed we needed to have permanency. A permanency that did not depend on the whim of any administration or any council or any mayor. Given the city's strong desire for independent agency, it is imperative to add this amendment, granting commissioners legislative power to hold each other accountable. This is a crucial step in the next chapter of police oversight. Moreover, the amendment provides Council with veto power to ensure just cause in any quorum decision in this manner. Thus, any 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. commissioner's decision of this magnitude protect the integrity of CPOC and ensure adequate service to the city of Philadelphia. Next, we've had amazing interactions with the director of investigations, Jamon Rogers, who is a former officer, if you didn't know. It would be a privilege to sit with anyone with his experience or character. So when it comes to the amendment that permits prior officers who have been five years withdrawn from the office and five years withdrawn from any union, we welcome them as long as they are willing to listen and hear out all commissioners and work in a collaborative effort. We begin a new chapter in oversight -- we began a new chapter in oversight with hiring Attorney Twigg and Executive Director Tonya McClary. With every new chapter brings with it new language. And I support this current proposed amendment presented today as a part of this evolving narrative. Thank you for allowing me to speak.
Thank you for your testimony. Former members and those in the 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. listening public, when we put this to a vote on the city charter, our intentions in the legislation was to create an independent, say it again, independent body, that was above the politics. So we had Jim Kenney, we have Mayor Parker now, those are probably, and I can say folks that are going to do the right thing, but we don't know three elections from now who the mayor will be, who the police commissioner will be and what the political atmosphere will be. But what we can assure is that they will be independent. That they will be able to exist, that they will have a budget, that they will be able to function. And that is the intention of this legislation. We tried to build a plane and fly it too. Build the plane, figure it out and fly it, too. There was friction. There is going to be friction in any newly founded organization. But what we wanted to do with this amendment is not to try any particular case, not to say this is someone we want off, but to have a mechanism to self-govern for the board so that 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. they can say, "You know what, following due process, we think you may have had a misstep. " And then even in that, with this amendment, we get a second bite at the apple. " And to be able to inject that opinion at one point, I was asked by a member of Council, "Aren't we giving them too much power? " And I would answer, "No, that's the intention. " There's going to be times, and I correct myself by the George Floyd moment, I duly understand what you meant. It has been received, but at some point, in the city, it's going to happen again. And when it does, we don't want naysayers of the process to be able to point out fractures within the process to be able to file suit. Clearly in the definition, which is important, and I recognize this when I met with you guys, that 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. training important. As a board member, I think I have powers that I may not have, and I'm talking about the Human Relations Commission. I'm using my commission as an example. I have been curious about cases, but there has to be a firewall in between what the investigators investigate and what I deliberate on later so that I can keep an arm's length, impartial view of what their work produced. That is important in the integrity of the work. Now, we're never going to be perfect, guarantee you that. But we can endeavor to become better each and every opportunity that we see that there's a gap, that there's a definition gap, that there's a defining issue that we can address as a body. And at the end of the day, the board is working for free. So we thank you so much for your contribution. You go into neighborhoods, you listen better than we do, because when they address them, it's usually about specific issues related to interaction with our police force. And that is important, that people have faith that you're listening. I remember, and I'm going 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. to end this with this. When we had a body that only you mentioned, former President Clark, that we had a body that we only gave you guys $250,000. That was designed to fail. You didn't have investigators, the waiting for a complaint to be processed was upwards, I think about two years before they got to it. And we had to fight to get a budget. We're fighting to make sure that these amendments empower you so that when you come before us, you've made a decision internally that we can review. So with that, that's what the intention of this legislation is and I want it to be real clear that it's not about an individual case. It's about a process by which they can self-govern, and I think that's important. Anybody want to -- okay. I'm going to go this way and then that way. Member Gauthier.
Again, just wanted to commend the councilmember on this bill. I'm glad you corrected the record about us not having seen a George Floyd moment, because we've 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. seen lots of them. My district was literally on fire --
-- twice. Once after the uprisings following George Floyd. Once after the local police involved shooting of Walter Wallace Jr. who was shot less than one minute of the police arriving on the scene as he was experiencing a mental health crisis. And that's why this is important, right? As much as I respected the people who were involved with the advisory commission, including Mr. Erace, I never believed that the same entity reporting -- that the advisory board reporting to MDO and police reporting to MDO could eve result in accountability. It's just not possible. And so I think it was very important to create this body. Probably one of the most important things that we could have done in this city for accountability, but also to help us with some of the issues that we're seeing around gun violence. I don't believe that we will ever be able to clear cases in a way that's meaningful if 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. citizens don't trust the police. And for citizens to trust the police, there has to be a mechanism for accountability. And so thank you for creating this commission, along with my sister, the honorable Samantha Williams, who worked very hard on this. I think it's important, and I agree with amendment. Thank you so much.
We're still in morning. So thank you so much to each of you for your testimony. As the councilmember and chair mentioned, as we go along the process, when we're creating these types of commissions or just boards, body of boards, there's going to be some turbulence along the way, especially if we've never done it. And so that is to be expected. But what I also want to be careful of is timing. What is its timing and how did this come about? I want to be very cautious that we 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. are not creating these types of legislation that we call oversight and that we call putting processes in place as a result of a specific incident, which is what is being insinuated here today. Oversight is absolutely necessary. Right. I agree with that. I think that as a government, we do not do our due diligence. We don't do a good job at providing oversight when we are putting things in place, and we're so quick to put them together because we think that we're responding. This commission was in response to all of these other incidents, that we put them together very quickly, and I don't think we sometimes think them through all the way. And so I want to make sure that we understand that timing is important, but sometimes timing doesn't happen until incidents occur that allow us to kind of take a step back and look at what we did and how we put it together. And we're bound to make mistakes. We're bound to miss a step. And this allows us that moment to step back, look at the process, and fill in and 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. correct and make modifications to all those spaces or to all of those -- to that process that isn't going to be perfect at the beginning. I just want to make sure that I say that because I think that I have heard from past and present commissioners who have said the concept of CPOC is amazing. It's great. We need it. It's absolutely important. But there are breakdowns in the process that are not exactly perfect. And they're never going to be, but they're not good processes and they get us to here, they get us to a point where there's confusion, there's frustration, this legislative body then needs to get involved. And so I think that I want people to understand that this is going to happen in everything we do, especially in government, as we go based on different situations. We'll probably be here again in a year or two, just modifying the process of what the board is supposed to be doing, how they're supposed to serve, and how does the community really -- what's the community's voice in your work? Right. How do you report back the voices of 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. the community? Because that's a part of this commission that I have not seen or heard enough of. I don't know what you all are, what cases you all took, what you investigated, what was the outcome, how did the community play a role? All of those are things that I think are extremely important so that people buy into the commission and understand that although it's not perfect, it is working in the best interest of the people. So thank you so much for your work.
Well said. I mean, the most important (indiscernible) your day-to-day work is important, but it is the full faith and trust of the public that we're fighting for, that we want to maintain. And that when you make a decision that people trust it. They say, "You know what, and heretofore you've been in sync with what the administration has said." But there may come a time when you say, "We don't see it that way, that we differ in how that process should have gone." And those will be the defining moments of this commission. That when we stand apart and say, "Here's our process, 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. and here's why we drew that conclusion, that your mental will be tested." And we believe that these times right now, what you're going through right now creates that process that we can believe in. So let me - - yes. I'm sorry, Jim Harrity.
You're all right. I want to start off by saying that I believe the commission was definitely needed. I believe that we have a handful of officers that do not need to be officers. But I also know that we have thousands of good officers who just want to go out and protect and serve their community and get home safe to their families every night. That's why when you guys had your meeting in Kensington, I was very disappointed with the language of the flyer that went out. We here in the city of Philadelphia are trying to establish trust again in our police department. We are trying to establish community policing with officers out there being trusted by the community that they serve. That's why I was very disappointed when somebody showed me the flyer, and I'm 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. paraphrasing now, it basically said, "Please come to the meeting you will be safe. There will be no police." That is absolutely, positively the wrong message to be sent out to a community that is already feeling the pressures of the opioid epidemic, the lack of policing in their neighborhood. I think you guys got a little wake up too, because it actually didn't turn out the way that I believe it was being steered towards. People in Kensington do want police. They do want safety. And they do want police officers that are doing their job and not being disrespectful or anything else. They have a job to do. We, the citizens of Kensington, know they have a job to do, and we respect them for doing that job because if you live in my neighborhood, you know how hard that job is. And I've been fighting -- you know, I was Senator Street's chief of staff. I've been fighting for police accountability for many, many years. And I think this commission is good. But I believe that we have to take more 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. time when we are sending a message to the public, we need to make sure that the language in those things -- I get what they were trying to do, make people be able to voice their opinions without the police being there. And again, I believe they actually got the opposite of what they were thinking was going to happen. They thought people were going to come and complain about the police, but that wasn't the case. People came and they defended the police, because the bottom line is we need them. We need good ones, but we need police. You ask the seniors in my neighborhood, and they'll tell you they'd rather have a police officer on the corner because they can't go to the corner store, they can't go out and shop. They're prisoners in their own homes. And we're trying to reverse the stigma here in the city of Philadelphia. We want police that want to do their job, that want to protect and serve and be part of that community that they're protecting and serving. So I would just ask that in the future, the commission chooses their words wisely and think about the perception 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. of what they're saying. And again, I'm a supporter of this. I believe that this is a needed thing. I believe that no one is above the law and everybody should be held accountable for their actions. But we also have to support the good men and women doing the work. Thank you.
Thank you, Member. Well said. It's no them against us, is just us.
And I agree. Member Lozada raised a good point maybe she'll share that with you.
I'm just wondering, as you all been doing the work, have you had, as a -- as a board, have you all had the opportunity to look at what your policies and your procedures are, not just in responding to any specific issue, but as a whole? Have you had an opportunity to sit down as a group of people to say, "These are all of the potential incidents, these are all the things we're supposed to be doing, and these are the 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. things that we don't believe give us a clear path to how to respond and resolve this type of issue or issues in general?" Has CPOC done that as a board? COMMISSIONER TORRES-THOMAS: May I?
Yeah, sure. Please. COMMISSIONER TORRES-THOMAS: We are not allowed.
State your name again. COMMISSIONER TORRES-THOMAS: We are not allowed, and we are not permitted to look at that information. We have been told that, and I can only speak for myself. I have requested to sit in the conference room at the office downtown to review any reports, even old reports, but we are not allowed, nor are we permitted because we will get sued. So this is what's quoted to me and to the rest of the commissioners.
So if I understood your question, what else needs fixing? What other processes, not -- what systematic processes, can you see that needs tightening up? 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. Share with us.
Anthony, as the ED of the organization, have you and your team internally had an opportunity to look at the process? COMMISSIONER TORRES-THOMAS: Is this for me, Councilwoman Lozado, or are we speaking - - okay. DEPUTY DIRECTOR ERACE: I'm sorry. (indiscernible) can you repeat that?
I said, you being the executive director, have you all had an opportunity to sit down and look at what are your policies? What are the procedures? Is there a clear path to responding to things that may come up? As an organization, sometimes, again, we put things in place and we don't think them through. Have you all had an opportunity to do that?
Self-evaluation. DEPUTY DIRECTOR ERACE: Oh, sure. I mean, an organization, always managing internal processes to try to make them more effective and 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. efficient. If you're, as an example, response to complaints against police, we make sure that our process records and transmits those complaints within five business days, as an example. So we definitely have internal processes, and we're always trying to evaluate those processes to make them more efficient and better for the residents of Philadelphia.
Right. I'm talking about to people. Right. How do you respond to evaluating and making adjustments to processes as it relates to staffing? The commission, residents hat you engage with, that you encounter along the way? DEPUTY DIRECTOR ERACE: I mean, in general, the residents of Philadelphia are our guide. I mean, the ones that, that impart their concerns about policing, and they're the reason that we exist. So, I mean, we are always open and receptive to issues from all parts of the city.
So if I could 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. chime in, when we were at Pennsylvania Human Relations Commission, I was appointed at a very rough time. We had backlogs, we had issues and conflicts within staff, we had all of them. And what we did was we went on a board retreat in Hershey. It wasn't in Miami, but we evaluated everything. We evaluated everything and said, "We take too long to evaluate a case. And why is this step here when we could expedite it this way?" And as a result of that exercise, we actually improved over time our efficiency. Have you had that opportunity to do that? DEPUTY DIRECTOR ERACE: That is something that internally, as a staff, that we do constantly. I mean, we're always trying to figure out smarter and better ways to function to deliver service. If you're --
With the board? DEPUTY DIRECTOR ERACE: Well, can speak to their internal processes.
No. 24 DEPUTY DIRECTOR ERACE: better than I can. 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC.
See, that's the point. Up in Pennsylvania, eventually, we broke down that silo, and board members were sitting next to the staff. Staff was sitting next to board members. And they said, "Well, you, board member, you take too long to review." Or, "You staffer, I get confused about what the steps are that it takes." And to really air out the system that process together. Has that ever happened? COMMISSIONER BENNETT: I think this is a two-step question that it take a little bit in depth. March of last year, 2023, we began taking an depth look into the legislation, the policies that were available to us as a commission. And when I say a commission, I want to say in light of the new legislation -- in light of the new amendments, the board of Commissioners began to take a look via email. We then went to Commissioner Elder DeBouse. I'm sorry, Commissioner Elder DeBouse, children's mission as a commission and went through the legislation and what we knew CPOC to be piece-by-piece, including all of the wonderful 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. television interviews. We then had a plan moving forward. The problem with this is it didn't -- we never bought the entire staff with our plan. We bought executive director Anthony Erace and we spoke to him directly and what we would like to see moving forward. Of course, the resignations happened and everything fell apart. A lot of our plans fell apart after the resignations happened. But then we start moving forward. We hired Attorney Catherine Twigg, who was basically able to give us legal advice and tell us what we can, what we are allowed to do and what we cannot do, basically advise us. Since then, we've been having instances where we would get together with Attorney Catherine Twigg, Anthony and whatever director, the issue involves. Small sessions about a certain particular issue or a certain particular subject that we wanted to address. Commissioner Elder is in the back. Commissioner, could you raise your hands, please so they can see you? Commissioner Elder is in the back. Commissioner Elder has 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. from day one said we need to do exactly what Council is proposing. We need to sit down as a full commission. Right. And when I say full commission, I'm not just saying the commissioners, I'm saying everybody involved in the Citizens Police Oversight Commission needs to sit down, discuss word for word, starting with the legislation, go through policies. We did a walk-through police practice that I want to know more. A lot of our commissioners have done the -- COMMISSIONER TORRES-THOMAS: Police academy. COMMISSIONER BENNETT: -- police academy, right? So I think we all need to get together and do exactly what you said because as everyone has said, this is a new chapter. This will help us -- in the definition of the new amendment, this will help us provide guidance on policing and policy moving forward. So I want to thank Council for putting emphasis on it. And I want to also, at the same time, celebrate my fellow Commissioner Elder, who has 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. from day one stated, this is what we need to do before anything else, before any hires, anything. This is what we need to do. But at the same time, now that we have the hires, and now that we have a specialist in their field, it will be that more potent to have what Council is proposing today.
Yeah, I recommend that that happen. And so that we're not here and that we're not building legislation around the issues that you are faced with on a consistent basis. And all of those policies should be done and put in writing so that people have a very clear definition of what the policy is, of what their actions are, of what their responsibilities are, because it is the only way that you are going to be a trusted source, not only t government, but also with the people. I want to trust that if the oversight commission took on an issue, were guided by document that tells them how they're supposed to break it down, what they're supposed to do, that there was a fair process in that review and that 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. their actions were just. Not just with cases, but with you all internally as a commission. I think that's extremely important. And so my recommendation is going to be that you do that, that you take the legislation and that you break it down and that every commissioner understands it. It's difficult when you're a volunteer commissioner taking on such an important role potentially not really understanding the importance of the role and how serious it is and what the expectation of you as an individual, number one is, as well a body. What is your responsibility as a body? And so that's just my recommendation.
I don't want to be here a year from now having the same conversation and trying to build policy to be able to protect the commissioners, protect the commission, protect us as a body. And so that's just my recommendation.
So that's humbly submitted to you. 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC.
Any other questions for this panel? Member Gauthier.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I wanted to agree with my colleague that I think people want safety and community policing at the same time they do want accountability and good treatment by the police. That being said, I am glad the CPOC is independent. I don't expect them to toe any line. I don't expect them to gloss over real issues of mistrust between particularly Black and Brown communities and police that are not the fault of civilians, nor were created by civilians. And I think it's important for CPOC to be perceived as a safe space. agree with the recommendation for a retreat. I don't know about Miami now, but I agree with the recommendation for some sort of retreat that would bring the board and the staff together. I think every group goes through forming and norming and storming. Or forming and storming and norming, I think is the order. And it's important for this group to go through that 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. process as well. And so anything that we can do from our vantage point support that, I think would probably be a good thing for the group. And I wanted to thank -- I wanted to thank the commissioners, I want to thank Mr. Erace and the rest of the staff. You are trying to get your arms around an incredibly important thing in the city of Philadelphia, and that's going to take a lot of hard work and a lot of time. And we thank you. COMMISSIONER TORRES-THOMAS: May I?
Yes. COMMISSIONER TORRES-THOMAS: Okay. Can you hear me?
Yes, we can. COMMISSIONER TORRES-THOMAS: Okay. I want to feel safe as a commissioner. I don't want to feel that if I go into an executive meeting that I'm going to be attacked. I'm on both sides. I was married to a chief inspector for the Philadelphia Police Department, and I respect the police department. My husband and I just lost a son two years ago, and my son, Moses, worried about me. 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. He goes, "Mom, I'm scared for you because this is a very serious position you're taking on." And I believe, I have faith. So I am concerned. Am I going to continue to be attacked in executive meetings? Am I able to still speak freely if I see something that is wrong? If I find that it's wrong, I'm going to speak on it. I'm not going to say, "Yeah, it's okay." No, it's not okay. As a survivor, we do not blame, shame, and guilt citizens for the abuse that they suffered. We're not going to do that. And I refuse to do that. So, yes, I do have fear, but I believe that my co-commissioners and I can, and the new ones that come on board, they need to feel that they're a team. Every report that asked me, I would never speak ill manner of my co-commissioners. I would say we are a team. We work together. But lately, I have not been feeling like a team. But I'm not going away. You have me for two more years. So I want to thank you. I want to thank you. I'm honored. And I'm proud. You know, as a Latina mother, 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. grandmother, daughter, I'm proud to be a commissioner for CPOC. Thank you.
Thank you. Any other questions? COMMISSIONER BENNETT: I do.
Go ahead. COMMISSIONER BENNETT: Before we move forward, I wanted to make sure. Well, I was just able to inform Elder Commissioner DeBouse Saturday about this hearing today before us. I just wanted to -- well I'm asking you, could we see if she has anything to say.
We will. Now, I would never deny Elder. Please come up. (Witness approached witness table.) COMMISSIONER BENNETT: You know, I was going to put you on.
Member DeBouse -- Commissioner. Welcome. Take a seat. State your name for the record, and please, please begin your testimony. COMMISSIONER DUBOIS: This seat? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yes. And there is a microphone. 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC.
Get the mic to her, please. COMMISSIONER DEBOUSE: Thank you. I believe it's still morning.
It is. COMMISSIONER DEBOUSE: So good morning to council and to the chair, Councilman Jones. Thank you for this opportunity and to my fellow commissioners who are here, especially my bookend, Commissioner Bennett. We take this role seriously, and we are committed to seeing a greater Philadelphia. I have been a part of this process before its inception. I was on the team that recognized the impotence of the pact, and we fought to get a ballot question. We won by a margin of 74.9 percent, and we have been plowing forward ever since in a very arduous task of becoming the kind of commission that the citizens of Philadelphia need. I am disappointed in some of the things I've heard today, and I'm highly disappointed in some of the things that we have experienced. We have had opportunities that have been missed because of miscommunication or failure to communicate. 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. And we have had challenges that, as the board of commissioners, we're up to face. But we have not necessarily always been given the tools so that we can see a clear path forward. This is not my first board. This is not my first city appointment. This is not my first many of any things. So I recognized the mistakes. I stood and I continued to stand in a professional place, trying to support, aid, and guide my fellow commissioners, make recommendations to the staff so that we can be more effective. I will say, Councilman Jones, that sometimes people perceive me because I am blind, that I'm also stupid and crazy. Well, the fact is, that would be a big mistake to think that of me because I'm wide awake. I'm woke, in the vernacular, and I'm fully cognizant of everything. This is not a place to air dirty laundry, because we're moving toward correction.
There you go. COMMISSIONER DEBOUSE: We will, in our next executive session, have a conversation about some form of retreat. We have articulated the 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. missteps in the onboarding process, and because of those missteps, we have a lot of ground to make up and a lot of ground to cover. We are confident with the newly appointed executive director in the person of Ms. Tonya McClary. We are confident that under her leadership, we are about to engage in a number of changes. It was stated earlier that this is not the first change in our legislation. So we will be back in this room in the not-too-distant future. There are a number of gray areas, and we ran into some of those gray areas when we first tried to establish a permanent executive director. So now that those have been highlighted, as was mentioned by Council Lozada, now that it has been emphasized that we need to again go through both the legislation and the bylaws with a fine-tooth comb, now that we're out of the weeds of some of our transitional processes, we're going to do just that. And we will emerge as a commission who knows. We know our assignment to make this a safer, more fair, more just community, not just for our men and 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. women blue, who we don't despise. We support them. We speak against them. We speak for justice, but not only for them, but for the citizens of Philadelphia whose trust has been eroded. Thank you so much, Councilman Jones, for giving me this opportunity to speak.
They don't clap for everybody, but they just clap for you because well said, well said. COMMISSIONER DEBOUSE: Thank you.
And we have faith. We absolutely have confidence in you, your commission, the staff, the process, the blessing is in the struggle. If you guys were rubber stamping everything and it was kumbaya, I would raise the question like, this is a body up here, don't always get it on, I mean, get along. We figure it out. We figure it out. And so we, we have faith in you. Are there any other questions for the panel?
Thank you all for your testimony and input. We appreciate it. 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. COMMISSIONER TORRES-THOMAS: Thank you.
Mr. Chairman, our next panel will be Chief Public Safety Director Adam Geer and Adam Garber, executive director of CeaseFirePA. That is for Bill Number 240472. (Witnesses approached witness table.)
Let me just open up with. If you look at Las Vegas and what happened when I think it was 100 plus people were killed, the use of a trigger enhancement accelerated the rate of fire causing those casualties. If you look at what happened up in school districts shooting, a trigger enhancement was used to accelerate the fire rate. If you look at police officers that go out every day, they have limits on what they can use by way of tools. And in a case of a bump-stock, in the case of an enhanced trigger, they're outgunned. And it's not fair when I think about, the 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. Pennsylvania Gaming Commission requires only three bullets and a gun to hunt a deer or turkey, but yet in city of Philadelphia, we can put trigger enhancements that's caused the rate of fire to exponentially increase to the point that you're like using a musket against people with Tommy guns. So with that, this legislation is designed to prohibit that in the city and county of Philadelphia. And with that, who do we have first to testify, Mr. Glass?
Mr. Geer, welcome. DIRECTOR GEER: Thank you. And good morning, Chairman Jones. Good morning, councilmembers. It's always nice to be here in front of you. My name is Adam Geer. I'm the chief public safety director. I'm joined here by my deputy, Joshu Harris, who if we have to get into the weeds, will assist me in that endeavor. And it is my pleasure and really my duty to offer testimony in support of this Bill Number 240472. 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. My office, the Office of Public Safety, created this bill to meet a rising threat in devices that accelerate a firearms rate of fire. Such devices include auto-sears, also known as switches and bump-stocks. And the difference here between the two is the switch is inserted normally called a Glock switch, into the back of the gun. It changes the mechanics of the gun in violation of federal law, and turns it essentially into a machine gun. And if you've seen any footage of these, and it's simple to go to YouTube and see how they operate, it is just like a machine gun, whereas a semi-automatic gun is just as fast as you can pull the trigger. And so that's the critical difference, the bump-stock so the Glock switch changes that gun's mechanics in violation of federal law. The bump-stock is different. It relies on the recoil of the gun, normally a rifle, and you put it on the back of the rifle, where you put it in your arm, and it uses the rifle's recoil to accelerate the rate at which you can fire. And again, it approaches that a machine gun. 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. Predictably, when these devices are added to guns, the result is carnage and more carnage and we're seeing that. A switch was involved in the shooting of those at the bus 6 stop in Northeast Philadelphia back in March. 7 Police investigators estimated that one suspect 8 fired 23 shots in about two seconds using a 9 switch. 23 shots in about two seconds. That is 10 impossible to do if it was just a regular semi- 11 automatic. 12 But with that switch, 23 shots in about 13 two seconds. The sort of firepower has become 14 common in Philadelphia's streets. They're cheap 15 and easy to obtain from Chinese suppliers, and 16 are often falsely advertised and labeled. 17 Switches are also able to be made with 3D 18 printers, which is why this legislation also would seek to make that in violation of it. Accordingly, we have seen an alarming rise in multiple victim shootings, from dozens to hundreds a year. And really, one of the reasons why we're seeing that, as was the case in that horrific shooting in March, is that if any of you fired an automatic weapon before, or a machine 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. gun type weapon, it is incredibly difficult to control. That recoil that you're getting from rapid fire causes you to lose accuracy, and even professional marksmen have difficulty harnessing the power of a machine gun. And that's even doubly so for a handgun, which is what we see in our switches because a handgun is a short barrel gun, it's less accurate, period, than a rifle. And then when you add that machine gun, shots 12 in two seconds, it causes projectiles to go 13 downrange more or less indiscriminately. 14 And in a city that is a huge, huge, 15 huge risk to our citizenry. So I want to spell 16 that out. This bill attacks the problem broadly. 17 It bans the production, the purchase, sale, or 18 transfer of any of these devices. And as such, 19 this bill comprehensively addresses this rising 20 and very real deadly threat from this basic 21 weapons technology. With that, I'd pass it on to 22 my fellow colleague, Adam, and welcome any 23 questions afterwards. DIRECTOR GARBER: Thank you. And thank you -- 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC.
State your name for the record please. DIRECTOR GARBER: Huh?
State your name. DIRECTOR GARBER: Oh, sorry. My name is Adam Garber. I am the executive director of CeaseFirePA. And thank you, Chairman Jones and members of the Committee on Public Safety, Pennsylvania. We are Pennsylvania's leading gun violence prevention organization, and I will say I'm also a resident of the city of Philadelphia for years, living in South Philadelphia. 14 Thank you for inviting me to testify on this 15 critical issue. 16 And thank you, Councilman Jones, 17 Chairman Jones, for sponsoring this ordinance, because as you heard, these are a small part with a fatal consequence for Philadelphians. The auto-sears and bump-stocks used are an inherent danger because they allow a firearm to fire like a machine gun. Spewing up to 1200 bullets in a minute, and when combined with extended magazines, can cause severe damage. Since the bump-stock was first really 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. used and came onto the national scene in 2017, when it was used to kill 59 people in Las Vegas, these types of pieces, and especially switches and auto-sears have infiltrated Philadelphia. As you've already heard, they were used in the murder of three -- in the injury of three teenagers -- when three teenagers opened fire at a SEPTA bus-stop in Northeast Philadelphia, injuring eight students. And at least one of the perpetrators used a switch to convert his handgun into a rapid -ire device. Police also suspect that they may have been used in the murder of Officer Mendez as well earlier in 2023. As noted, they also increased the rate of bystanders being injured, which we've seen notably over the last few years, because it makes it harder to aim. This is also a rising national issue. The Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms recorded a 570 percent increase in the number of such device, devices recovered by police departments between 2017 and 2021, the most recent period with available data on the prevalence. And it's not surprising considering 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. how easy they are either to make or purchase online. You can buy them for as little as $20, often ordering as counterfeit parts from China, and they can be 3D printed in your own home. One of the things I want to note here is that although these devices are already illegal to possess under federal law, the district attorneys cannot prosecute violations of federal law. And it's why the PA District Attorneys Association recently supported a similar statewide bill to ban bump-stocks and Glock switches. And why republican led states like Mississippi recently banned these deadly devices. Allowing people to convert a handgun into a machine gun with a simple, cheap part is a recipe for death and terror. One last note, for decades, the general assembly has preempted local gun safety laws, forcing us to live with this violence, unfortunately and unconscionably, honestly. But the PA Commonwealth Court recognized a simple reality you aren't regulating firearms. This ordinance will regulate parts, 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. which is why the court upheld Council President Johnson's previous ban on ghost guns. And this falls in that legal theory that we have the right to keep people safe by addressing parts that make firearms more deadly. Thank you for your time and continuing the work to make the city safer.
Thank you for the work you doing and your testimony. DIRECTOR GEER: I think that's it.
Is that it? Okay. DIRECTOR GARBER: Yeah (indiscernible).
All right. We're seeing increasing use of these switches and bump- stock, and what kind of disadvantage does it give law enforcement in the city of Philadelphia? Because we're not allowed to make them standard issue on their weapons. So literally we're outgunned. DIRECTOR GEER: It's a tremendous issue for our law enforcement, and I believe it's why law enforcement has supported these measures, because they don't want their folks out there looking down the barrel one of these Glock 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. switches, which again, is throwing out this ammunition at a rate that they just cannot keep up with. So it's an extreme disadvantage. It puts our law enforcement in peril, and we're hoping to continue to march towards state solutions for this and to utilize our federal partners as well in the prosecution of these crimes and come down hard when we find these because it's putting everyone at danger. And that goes also for our law enforcement.
So I want to thank you and the administration for proposing this legislation. How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. How do you keep Philadelphia safe? One piece of good enforceable legislation at a time. And I think this is consistent with the cleaner, greener, safer Philadelphia. So I thank you for that. Any other questions? Member Gauthier.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. You're on the roll today with legislation, and for legislation this is so necessary. When I think about some of the 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. shootings we've seen recently, the horrible SEPTA bus shooting, the shooting on of July at 160th 4 Street in my district, where they were able to get off 104 shots in a few minutes, injuring four people, killing Senator Street's nephew, as well as another person in my district. I don't remember the detail to know if they had a bump-stock in that particular shooting but I do believe that we have to do whatever we can to get dangerous weapons and dangerous accessories for weapons off of the street and if the state is not going to help us, despite the best efforts of Adam in CeaseFirePA, and others, and we have to help ourselves. And so I commend our Council President Johnson for his ghost gun legislation, but also Councilmember Jones for this piece of legislation designed to keep dangerous weapons and dangerous accessories for weapons out of the hands of citizens. Thank you. DIRECTOR GARBER: Thank you.
I also want to say thank you, Councilmember. You are absolutely 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. on a roll as it relates to public safety and changing how things happen around public safety in our city. So thank you so much for being so intentional in the legislation and the pieces of legislation that you've set forth, especially those that were presented today. You know, representing a district where two of the districts where the highest crime comes out of the 24th and the 25th police district, it is legislation like this that really will make it have a direct impact on the ground in the community. But my question is, how are we -- we do a lot of these gun buybacks. I want to know, how effective are they. Especially in getting this type of firearm off the streets. I have talked to many grand moms, many moms who have said, "There was a rifle. I got a rifle." They don't know. They got a small gun. But how effective are we -- other than making arrests in serious cases, how effective are we in getting these guns off the street? What do people do when they see these types of weapons in their homes? How can we work with young people at 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. the school district try to educate them on how serious this is? You just said rounds come 4 out in two minutes -- 5
Two seconds. 7 You said 1200 in something. I can't even imagine 8 how we begin to educate our young people on how 9 dangerous even having one of these in your home 10 is. So how do we do that? 11 DIRECTOR GARBER: Maybe I'll take the 12 first part and hand it over for additional 13 comments. Just to note, I mean, on gun buybacks 14 in general, I think they are admirable attempts 15 to address a crisis that the city has limited 16 tools in the toolbox to address. The truth is 17 that the evidence tends to be limited that they 18 actually reduce gun violence, mostly because the 19 people who are returning and selling out the guns 20 are often not the people using them. 21 And just frankly, the sheer number of 22 guns. So I think in two years ago, it was about 23 8 or 900 guns that were bought back through those events in Philadelphia, the same year it's just statewide, because we don't have Philadelphia 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. numbers, 1.4 million guns were sold. So 8, 900 guns in one city, probably a few hundred thousand here, you are taking water out of a bucket with a thimble. That being said, when we're talking about getting to children and teenagers and understanding the consequences, I think the investments that the city has done, that the state has done in programs to prevent violence and to include lethal means counseling to help understand the consequences of violence, which seems so obvious to us, but is not a considered process, thought always for youth, their brains are still developing, we know, just biologically, those programs have been shown to be extremely effective in reducing violence and have worked through a whole number of means. Whether they're school-based programs, working people who in diversion-based programs, or in the city's GBI model, all those programs help youth understand the consequences and find other pathways to deal with the conflict that they are experiencing that doesn't resort to a gun and ultimately leads to some of them probably 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. returning their guns and saying, "This is not a pathway I need to use." And so I think when we look at the drop in homicide and shooting rates in the city, which has been quite significant in the last year and a half, it is heavily attributable to those CDI programs that have been funded through the city's budget, through the state's budget and other programs, and work with a lot of targeted youth who are at high risk for being involved in violence, especially in that kind of to 22- 13 year-old range. 14 DIRECTOR GEER: Thank you for that. 15 And the only thing I'll add Councilmember, and you're right. There is an education here that we, frankly, need to do more of for our youth in education about the dangerous and seriousness of just having a gun around, just a gun being in the home. We had made an introduction to a organization in Chicago, and I'll get you the information, if you'd like, after. I'm just blanking, unfortunately, on the name, but what their model is, and we made an introduction to a 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. Philadelphia gun violence group within the last month or two. They've come from Chicago. They've met with this group. What they do is they use social media influencers within the community to do a campaign, a targeted campaign about the dangers of guns for specifically targeted at youth, school-aged youth. So they will literally get influencers, people in the community. They'll identify who folks, kids might be listening to, and then they will have a very good, visceral information, fact-filled social media campaign, something that kids will be scrolling and see that deals with how dangerous it is just to have a gun around. And we know that suicide is a problem with guns.
Fratricide. DIRECTOR GEER: Correct. There's all that, and then there's the shootings, the mistaken shootings in the home that we see. We just had one where a child was playing with a gun and shot his friend. So these are things that we are -- need to do more of, and we'll continue to do more of. 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. DIRECTOR GARBER: Project Unloaded. DIRECTOR GEER: Thank you. Project Unloaded.
Have looked at -- as a city, have we looked at, here are these being generated? Like, where are the majority of these types of weapons found? I think we were having a conversation recently about bringing down -- if we want to have an impact on what is happening in communities like Kensington, where there is multibillion dollar open air narcotics sales and we know where those target areas are. Are we doing the same? Are we capturing data the same way in where these guns are being produced and sold out of? Are looking at that type of --
Mm-hmm. JOSHU HARRIS: Councilmember, I can speak to that.
State your name. JOSHU HARRIS: Yes. Joshu Harris, Deputy Director, Office of Public Safety. It's a 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. great question. We've been thinking about the gun buyback question, as well as the flow of guns and where the guns are found and also why people carry guns. I'm glad to say that we have a partnership with UPenn's Crime and Justice Policy Lab, which is a leader on rigorous research on community violence and gun violence in particular, to study how and why people carry guns, to understand how changes in recent years have influenced gun carrying motivation and gun carrying patterns and activities. And it's a part of our broader effort to better understand what's happening on the street. We have a lot of really good anecdotal evidence. We have a lot of good intel. We have some data analysis but we're trying to always penetrate deeper on that question so that we understand why it is that people are carrying guns, so that we can influence them hopefully not carry guns, to not make that choice. But the fact is that there's quite a bit of fear out on the streets, we know that. There's also people who are carrying guns for 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. business reasons. You mentioned drug trafficking. We know that there are people who sell drugs that carry guns for business reasons as well. But we are trying to solidify and sharpen that knowledge base so that we can use it to deploy better, more targeted, more effective means of reducing gun violence. For example, with gun buybacks, one of the things we've talked about is coming up with a model that's designed rather than to set up a table somewhere and put up flyers and invite people that we do more of a targeted outreach. And so we're connecting with people who we know are carrying guns or who have access to a gun and encouraging them to take advantage of financial incentives to turn in guns that may be involved in a shooting, for example. Another thing that we've done in partnership with the Department of Public Health, is a safe storage campaign in partnership with a community-based organization that focuses on youth, YEAH Philly. And so we're using our experience with this safe storage activity campaign to understand 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. if we have trusted community partners that have authentic relationships with people in the community who may be exposed to guns or gun violence, can we do a better job of targeted outreach in order to try to make people and make communities safer?
Yeah, I mean, one of the things that we've talked about, at least in the 7th Council District, with the community-based organizations that are within the boundaries of the 24th, 25th Police District, is how do we get -- how do we get gun locks into those community-based organizations that are oftentimes the first point of contact with community residents. And they find it challenging. They find it challenging to partner with someone who could issue gun locks. So I think we need to do better job at that. And then what is the most effective way to be able to present someone with, "Is there a gun in your home? And if so, we have access to a safety option." How do we do that without offending 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. someone or without making someone feel uncomfortable about the question. As we work towards educating our young people, we need to look at how do we better -- how do we make access to gun safety options more available to those who provide services on the ground and who have connections with community residents more directly and who are more trusted. As well as when we're doing these guns buybacks, how do we encourage them to bring these types of weapons in, where they feel there's value to? It's just not a safety thing where there's value. You need to bring these weapons and they need to be off the street because sometimes offering them $100 gift card is not enough. We've even tried to say, "We're going to give you $500 in groceries," and sometimes that's not enough. And so what is that correct amount or what is that correct incentive? I think that we need to work together with those trusted partners on the ground to be able to figure out what's the best option, as well as what's the best way or what's the best method to 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. be able to offer them a safety option.
Just wanted to agree with this thread of conversation that Councilmember Lozada brought up, that I love that we are probably moving forward this policy banning the bump-stocks. But I also think we have to be more creative too about creating an environment for people to voluntarily give up guns. I agree with Adam that the most important work that we can do over time is investing in and engaging young people who are caught up in a cycle of violence. This council has led the effort to get historic amounts of funding into violence prevention and violence interruption programs. But we also should be thinking much more creatively about lessening the supply of guns in spite of what Harrisburg is or is not doing. I don't believe that anybody's going to walk into a community center and give up a high- powered weapon for $125, particularly if they 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. have concerns about their own safety that lend to them carrying a weapon. I love what you said, Joshu, about doing this in a more targeted way and potentially upping what we're offering to people. So I think we should really, really, really lean into this. I personally would want to help you all move forward any efforts that you're considering in this area. Thank you.
And any data that you crunch that can give us some guidance on both the administration and Council, please forward that. And I'll distribute it to the members. Member Harrity.
Yeah, I agree with my colleagues. I grew up on the streets of Philadelphia. I wasn't always the person I am today. So I know that when you're offering somebody 100, $150 for a gun buyback when they could easily sell it on the street for 5, $600, most likely they're going to sell that gun on the street because cash is king. And we need to look at that and see here and what number is the right number? Is it 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. 500? Is it 700? Is it $1,000? Because for me, getting those guns off the street is more important than anything else that we're dealing with right now in the city of Philadelphia. 2022, I believe it was, we had 506 homicides in the city of Philadelphia. 198 of those homicides were in Councilwoman Lozada's district between the 24th to 25th, and I believe it was the 22nd Police District. That's almost half in one area alone. So again, echoing my colleagues, I think we need to figure out what the right number is to get these guns off the street and then make it happen. I'm saying public safety, gun violence has to be one of our number one priorities, and we need to get serious about it. And when you, on the street, you want to be serious, you throw money at it. And that's something that we need to do. We need to put some money aside and say, "Listen, we're willing to come out here and buy every gun that we can off this street and out of the hands of somebody who may use it." We also have to figure out why the hell a teenage child feels the need to carry a gun. 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. There's some kind of disconnect there, which I believe goes back to COVID and our children not being able to communicate with each other for so long that they lost that ability to actually communicate with each other and conflict resolution. We need to figure that out in the schools. We need to be providing more mental health in our school system for these kids, because I can tell you that there's a lot of kids suffering out there, and they really don't know why they feel as scared as they feel. But when you live in a neighborhood like me and Quetcy come from and parts of Councilwoman Gauthier and Councilman Curtis Jones' district, it's a reality. These kids are scared. They're scared for their own lives, and that's why they're carrying firearms. We need to make them feel safer, we need to give them the mental health that need. And I'll give a little plug to the sheriff's office. They have been outstanding when it comes to getting gun locks into our communities. 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. Every event you go to with the sheriff, she has stacks and stacks of gun locks sitting there that she takes out of her budget to buy in order to try to keep people safe. And that's another thing, we shouldn't have departments taking stuff out of their budget when they need it for other stuff, when we can just allocate other funding for that. So I think we need to start looking outside the box and figuring out what the right number is to get more of these guns in. And the God s honest truth is, nobody is going to turn a gun in for $100 if they can get 500 on the streets. Sad fact.
Thank you, Member. Well, I just want to shout you out because it was you that drew a line in the same with the last administration that said that we have to elevate gun violence and public safety to a level where we were taking it seriously. And I came overlap time, see the difference because we have a chief safety officer today because of it. So we're taking it seriously and want to thank the administration for taking it 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. seriously. And so we're getting there a little bit at a time, but we are getting there and we're moving in the right direction. Just not fast enough for the victims of this violence but we aren't giving up neither should they. With that, any other questions from the panel? Thank you for your testimony. And you, I understand, have volunteered to find resources for CPOC for their retreat. Thank you so much.
Yeah, glad to be. It could be Main Street. That begins with an M. Mr. Glass.
Mr. Chairman, there are no 16 more panels to testify on the bills today.
Thank you so very much for your testimony. We appreciate your input. This will conclude the public meeting.
Public comment. 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. Here we go. Thank you, Mr. Glass for keeping me on point.
Mr. Chairman, our three individuals for public comment will be Darius Spencer, Kate Perez, and Marta Guttenberg. (Witnesses approached witness table.)
Welcome. Please take a seat and we will call you in the order that Mr. Glass announced you.
Your name. You got to say your name. 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC.
Oh, Kate Perez. I woke up today to the news that Israel bombed Rafah over 60 times in the 48 hours after the International Court of Justice ordered them to halt the assault on Rafah, which Israel themselves had declared a safe zone. There's videos coming from the massacres showing parents holding up burnt remains of their children. Fathers are using cell phone flashlights to try to find their children's heads, pictures of civilian elders with their brain matter on the ground in clear violations of international law. Netanyahu stated that occupying Rafah and increasing military pressure on Hamas is the proper response to the court's decision that he then called antisemitic. There is a dangerous trend of conflating Zionism with the religion of Judaism, with many Jewish rights groups and Holocaust survivors coming out against this dangerous conflation, calling it a measure to curb free speech and distract from Israel's genocide on Palestine. Not all Jewish people are Zionists, and many Zionists are not Jewish. 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. Zionism has meant profound trauma for generations, systematically separating Palestinians from their home, land, and each other. In practice, Zionism has resulted in the massacre of Palestinian civilians, ancient villages, historic mosques, families who live just a mile away from each other are now separated by violent checkpoints, and thousands of Palestinian hostages are being held in administrative detention without charge. I do not have faith in our Philadelphia Police Department to correctly handle hate crimes, as our own police force is cross trained by the Israeli occupation forces. Israel is a well-documented apartheid state, and having our own police force trained with them seems like a conflict of interest, especially as Israel has already been taken to the international court by multiple countries on the charge of genocide, ethnic cleansing, collective punishment, forced starvation, and more. I'm confused as to how the police representative can come today to a - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. about hate crimes without any hate crime statistics. Coming with the statistics is the actual bare minimum. As a citizen, failure to bring statistics for this public meeting feels like either an attempt to hide the numbers or a lack of competency. It's racist to have the words Free Palestine even considered as a hate crime. There's nothing about calling for free Palestine that can be seen as a hate crime. The people of Palestine have a right to freedom, and the country will continue to exist regardless of how many bombs and dogs Philadelphia sells to their occupier. On May 1st, our house passed a bill to expand the definition of antisemitism to include criticisms for Israel, where criticisms like even saying the existence of the state of Israel is a racist endeavor would be called antisemitic under its terms. Netanyahu called the ICJ antisemitic for telling them to stop bombing refugee camps. It feels like we're shaping our laws to silence the Palestinian struggle and have our police force uphold the destruction of our 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. freedoms of speech. Again, our police force directly trains and partners with the known apartheid state. I think this skews their ability to understand what a hate crime is. As we continue to think about hate crimes, we should reconsider our police force partnering with the military that's famous for its racist war crimes. Rafah is being bombed right now. We need to do all we can to free Palestine.
Thank you for your testimony. State your name for the record, please.
Good afternoon. My name is Marta Guttenberg. I am a resident of the city. And my comment follows along the same lines as the previous member of the public who spoke. I saw the three spokespersons talking about the improvement of our local anti-hate laws. As I thought about what I could say to you today, I was thinking that a very simple definition of justice is justice is fairness. And the plan that could come out of the changes in the law is a worsening of the 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. unfairness of their application. The plan to enhance punishment for people's free speech, ability to say what is on their mind in public and perhaps louder than the neighbors want to hear. hoping that you will understand the power differential between people urging justice and fairness for the oppressed Palestinians Palestine and the intense silencing and criticism and doxing that such people receive, even from the institutions that hire and employ them. It's literally not safe to say certain phrases that are not hate speech. They're not bad names. They're not any of the words that we can't say, but are in some cases, simple statements of geographic fact, like river, sea, city. I'm grateful for Councilmember Gauthier naming the elephant in the room. This genocide, the worst in -- perhaps the worst in history, because so industrialized, is happening against an innocent population, and the complicity of the powers that be and the silencing of people who try to do what Rosaura talked about. Just saying that there's a problem 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. makes you the problem. I know that you can only write the laws you can't figure out how they'll be enforced. But I want you to see intense power irregularity that is weighing down on people trying to speak up for an oppressed people who are being shot, as we saw all over the -- anyway, thank you for letting me share. The crisis of our time is a genocide. It's the mother of all crimes. And we can't be silent and pretend to deal with other things while a genocide is occurring in our name, with our money and with our political cover. Do what you can in your position to put a stop to this world historic disaster. Other city councils have stepped up. I plead with you to step up. Thank you.
Thank you for your testimony. And I fight for freedom of speech every opportunity I get. We don't always agree, but we agree that you should be heard, and you know that. I did take into account what this legislation might be perceived as doing. And we will kind of take a look at this that as well. 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. So thank you for your testimony.
Mr. Chairman, there are no 5 other speakers for public comment.
I just wanted to chime in and say thank you for your comment today. In particular, I wanted to thank Kate Perez. Just you have this quiet sort of determination about you that I really respect. And I thank you for continuing to come and speak on this topic, even as the council has struggled with how to interface and engage on it. Thank you very much.
Thank you all. Thank you for your testimony. Is that it?
Yes, Mr. Chairman. There are no other speakers for public comment.
Okay. So this concludes our public hearing on Bills Numbers 0280, 240330, and 240472. Now we will recess for a second and then go into our public meeting. Thank you. Mr. Glass, can you call the roll? 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC.
Present. And with that we have a quorum we are convening. And I call on a motion from Member Lozada on Bill 13 Number 240280.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I move that Bill Number 240280 be reported from this committee with a favorable recommendation and therefore move that the rules of council be suspended to permit first reading of this bill at the next council of session. (Duly seconded.)
It has been moved and property seconded. All those in favor will say aye. (Aye.)
All those 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. opposed? (No response.)
-- 280 will be reported from this committee with a favorable recommendation and further move that the rules of council be suspended to permit first reading at our next session of Council. Chair again recognizes Member Lozada.
Thank you, Council President. I offer an amendment to bill 15 --
President? Correction. I'm not the president, I'm chairman. Don't get into trouble. You said Council President.
Corrected. Corrected for the record. Thank you. Mr. 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. Chairman, I offer an amendment to Bill Number 240330. A copy of the amendment has been circulated to all members of this committee. I move that the amendment be approved. (Duly seconded.)
It has been moved and properly seconded that Bill Number 240330 be amended and a copy of that amendment is circulated to all members of Council. All those in favor will say aye. (Aye.)
The ayes have it. Bill Number 240330 has been approved. Again, I recognize Member Lozada for amended Bill Number 240330.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I move that Bill Number 240330 as amended be reported from this committee with a favorable recommendation and further move that the rules of Council be suspended to permit first reading of this bill at the next council -- at the next 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. session of council. (Duly seconded.)
It has been moved and property seconded that amended Bill Number 240330 be moved from this committee with a favorable recommendation and further move that the rules of council be suspended to permit next reading at our next session of Council. All those in favor will say aye. (Aye.)
The ayes have it. Bill is approved. Again, I recognize member Lozado on a motion for Bill Number -- 18
Correct. Thank you, Mr. Chair. move that Bill Number 240472 be reported from this committee with a favorable 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. recommendation and further move that the rules of council be suspended to permit first reading of this bill at the next session of Council. (Duly seconded.)
It has been moved and properly seconded. All those in favor will signify by saying aye. (Aye.)
-- 472 will be reported from this committee with a favorable recommendation and further move that the rules of Council be suspended to permit first reading at our next session of Council.
This concludes 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. the business of the public safety committee. Do we have any other closing comments?
Thank you all. Thank you all. Thank you for being my wingman -- woman.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for giving me the opportunity.
Here we go. Good job, you all. Now, that wasn't too bad. That wasn't too long. (The Committee was adjourned.) 5/28/24 - COMMITTEE - BILL 240280, ETC. CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTIONIST I, KEZIAH MWANGI, Legal Transcriptionist, do hereby certify: That the foregoing is a complete and true transcription of the original digital audio recording of the proceedings captured in the foregoing matter. IN WITNESS THEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this 19th day of June, 2024. ______________________________________ Keziah Mwangi