COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA COMMITTEE ON RULES - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Monday, March , 2008, 10:25 a.m. - - - 6 7 Bill 080027, Amending Philadelphia Zoning Maps by changing zoning designation of 8 certain areas of land located within area bounded by Christopher Columbus Boulevard, 9 (former) Reed Street, the Delaware River, and Tasker Street (extended), under certain 10 terms and conditions. Bill 080028 - Approving plan of development for a Commercial Entertainment District in area generally bounded by (former) Reed Street, Tasker Street (extended), Christopher Columbus Boulevard, and the Delaware River. COMMITTEE MEMBERS PRESENT: Anna C. Verna, Chair James F. Kenney, Vice Chair Blondell Reynolds Brown Darrell L. Clarke Frank DiCicco William K. Greenlee Also Present: Councilman Bill Green - - - V A R A L L O Incorporated Litigation Support Specialists 1835 Market Street, Suite 600 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 215.561.2220 215.567.2670 2 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 I N D E X WITNESS Harris Steinberg, Executive Director..... PennPraxis Charles Denny, Streets Department....... 64 Fran Harney, PennDot Traffic Engineer... 72 J. Alvarez, Urban Planner, Stantech..... 97 L. Luggio, Traffic Engineer, Stantech 105 Frank Tavani, Traffic Engineer......... 129 F. Tavani & Associates Jeff Rush, QVNA President.............. 143 Ed Kerlin, lifelong Pennsport resident 151 Carl Primavera, Esquire, Philadelphia 163 Entertainment and Development Partners Jeff Greene, Orth-Rodgers & Associates Jim Dougherty.......................... 253 General Manager, Foxwoods Casino Terry Gillen, Commerce Department...... 288 Jim Paylor, Vice President............. 303 International Longshoremen's Association David Barry, UAW Member and............ 328 Connecticut Foxwoods Casino Employee C. Philo, International Downtown Assoc. 337 Philadelphia Neighborhood Association Panel Matt Ruben, Northern Liberties......... 345 Shawn Rairigh, Fishtown................ 345 Caryn Hunt, Passyunk Square............ 345 Steve Mullin, Econsult................. 372 * * 8 3 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028
Good morning, everyone this is the continued public hearing on rules regarding Bill 5 No. 080027 and Bill No. 080028. I would ask Mr. McPherson to please call the first witness. MR. McPHERSON: Harris Steinberg, Central Delaware Advisory Group. (Witness comes forward.)
Good morning, Madam President. I'm going to gave a presentation if that's okay. If I could come to the podium.
Thank you. Good morning, Madam President and members of the Rules Committee. My name is Harris Steinberg. I am the executive director of PennPraxis, which is the clinical arm of the 4 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 School of Design at the University of Pennsylvania. Our office led a 13-month public planning process for the Central Delaware, under executive order of former Mayor John Street. The executive order was signed in October of 2006, and the project culminated in November of 2007, with a presentation at the Pennsylvania Convention Center. Over the 13 months, we engaged over 4,000 Philadelphians in imagining a future for the Central Delaware, which, as you know, is largely post- industrial lands that have developed over time without an overarching plan or vision. Councilman DiCicco's office approached us in the summer of 2006 with the then prospect of one, possibly two, casinos as well as 22 residential towers being built in the area, without any overarching plan or 5 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 vision, and it was our job to kind of help assemble that. We gave the following conditions to doing the work: One, that it was open and transparent; that it was a public process that the press was involved; and that, ultimately, we would put forth the recommendations for the governing agency or implementing body that was accountable to the public voice. So what I'm going to show you today is an abbreviated version of that 13 months' worth of work. You have before you the actual vision document, which is a 242-age document that was delivered to the Mayor in November and was guided by a 46-member advisory group that consisted of 15 civic associations that comprised the river wards, as well as government officials from Philadelphia and the state. Rhina Cutler, who's with us 6 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 today, was a member of the -- an active member of the advisory group in her then-capacity as PennDOT, and we're happy that she is here now with us in the City as the City moves forward on figuring out what to do with the Central Delaware. So that's the brief background. On November 14, 2007, 1500 people came to the Convention Center; it was a standing-room-only crowd, and the project received a standing ovation from the assembled audience in terms of the vision that was put forth. So I bring it here today and I'm honored to do so, to give you kind of a sense of the work that was done and how it may impact all of our decisions on the Central Delaware in terms of planning, design, and moving forward.
7 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 (Inaudible, off-mic.)
The disk includes the full version of the book. You have before you not only the book, but there's also an op-ed, which I have in the Daily News today, which is essentially saying, Let's figure out what are the steps along the Central Delaware until the Zoning Code Commission does its work in terms of coming up with a new zoning code and master plan for the Delaware. How can we do no harm in terms of reaching the goals of a pedestrian-friendly, human-scaled extension of Philadelphia to the riverfront, which is what the vision calls for. So with that, I beg your patience. I will show you the Central Delaware. And, again, we're going to go quickly. So the question is: Why a civic vision? And it's important to remember that the Delaware is part of 8 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 a much larger ecosystem and geological network, that the headlands of the Delaware supply water for half of New York's drinking supply, they empty out into the Delaware Bay and as we kind of think about and wrestle with what's the future of these seven miles are part of a much larger natural system. As we kind of zoom in and position ourselves in terms of the Central Delaware itself, it's seven miles of riverfront from Allegheny at the north to Oregon at the south, the river to the east, and I-95 to the west. It's an area that is largely post-industrial in nature in terms of the size of the parcels it terms of its disconnect from the riverward neighborhoods by I-95 and presents what we feel is an important opportunity for the City to become a city of choice in the 21st century in terms of extending neighborhoods and 9 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 uses to the river. And we'll talk about how we think that can be done. It's largely a landscape that's dominated by former industrial -- remnants of former industry that used to be here. This is the PECO power station at Penn Treaty Park. There's a tangle of infrastructure -- I-95 and 676 where they meet. At the foot of -- near the foot of Market Street, it disconnects the riverward neighborhoods from the river. There are changing and evolving uses. The active port, which will be expanding to the south and south port and then the new large, big-box stores that have come to the area are demonstrated here in this image as a collage of uses on the southern part. And there's history that underlines the entire seven miles. 10 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 These are steps at the Wood Street terminus that connect Front Street with Water Street and are a reminder of the first public states that William Penn mandated in terms of development of the Central Delaware, which was then the epicenter of the City. So why a civic vision? In the past, many decisions about the Delaware, as well as uses up and down the riverfront, were done on a parcel-by-parcel basis. And, in fact, we're here today to talk about a specific parcel of land. Our feeling is, and those of the more than 4,000 folks who participated in this process, is that by developing a comprehensive vision, one that looks at traffic, transportation, ecological infrastructure, civic values, and planning principles will create the infrastructure and the vision for the 11 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 Central Delaware that will take us 30, 40 years into the future so that the that decisions we make today are a part of a much wider and broader concept of what the Central Delaware can be. So engaging people on walks, taking them through different forums where they talked about principles and values, and ultimately, we were able to come up with planning principles which guided the formation of the vision I will show you. A hundred years ago, Philadelphia was a thriving industrial center; we were the workshop of the world, and the Delaware itself played a tremendously active role in that.
At the same time, though, we were planning the Ben Franklin Parkway, and Fairmount Park was being developed, so we were thinking ahead, we were thinking long-term, and we were beginning to come to grips with 12 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 how do you balance the needs of the industrial society with kind of elegant and forward-thinking city plans. The question then is: What is our challenge today? How do we take a largely inaccessible waterfront and make it the centerpiece of a city of choice for the knowledge economy of the future? Other cities have done it, and we looked to: Chicago and Millennium Park; To Battery Park City in New York; To the Hudson River piers along the upper westside; To San Francisco, where the Embarcadero Freeway fell down and has now become a boulevard; To Hoboken, where they extended grid systems to the streets to access the river; And to Milwaukee, where historic housing is being adaptively 13 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 reused in old industrial structures. In Portland, we learned from the riparian edges where the landscape is actually doing active work to filter pollutants and manage storm water. So taking all of that knowledge that we learned and the citizens' values and principles that we distilled from the civic forums where over, as I said, 4,000 folks participated, along with our partners in the Penn Project for Civic Engagement, there were principles about connectivity, about designing with nature that ultimately went into framing a vision that was based on three simple networks: Movement, how you get around; Parks and open space, what's green and accessible; And then development. And we'll start to show you how those networks can come over and onto the Central Delaware over 20, 30, 14 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 40 years. This is a long-term vision. And, in fact, we're working with the civic associations that were a part 5 of the initial executive order to come 6 up with an action plan for the next 7 ten years that are actually doable 8 first steps towards realizing the 9 vision. 10 It starts with a network of 11 streets. Any traffic engineer will 12 tell you that multiple streets will 13 disperse traffic and calm traffic. 14 And if we take Delaware Avenue/ 15 Columbus Boulevard, which is currently designed more as a highway than as a boulevard, the more congested it becomes, the more disconnected the neighborhoods come from the river. So the vision calls for a rich network of streets that extends Philadelphia's streets pattern to the riverfront. It includes park spaces, where there are now eight acres of park and 1100 acres. It's a minuscule fraction 15 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 of the waterfront. We're calling for about 27 percent of the riverfront to become greenways and park spaces that can become active, connective parts of neighborhoods. In fact, we're hoping that there'll be a park every 2,000 feet, which is roughly a ten-minute walk from any neighborhood. And then the rest is development. This is a development- rich plan that calls for a wide variety of different types of development. It accommodates the existing working port as well as what we hope will be -- where we'll be at the forefront of the knowledge economy, with pharmaceuticals and bioengineering, as well as mixed uses of residential and commercial up and down the Central Delaware. The goal, of course, is to -- through movement systems, through connectivity, through streets, and a network of parallel roads and a 16 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 boulevard -- literally connect the riverfront with the City in a way that it hasn't been for many, many decades. So it starts with the boulevard. And how does what is currently -- and this is Festival Pier up by Spring Garden Street -- present itself really not as a very attractive or welcoming place, become, through kind of dense urban, infilled, mass transportation, and quality sidewalks, a place of choice.
This is really about making it a place you're going to want to walk, live, work, and play. Allegheny Avenue at the north, which connects Kensington with the riverfront, could be a green connector street that manages storm-water runoff as well as accommodates the development of the knowledge economy. Over time, Columbus Boulevard and Delaware Avenue, which currently is three lanes in each direction and is more highway in scale than 17 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 pedestrian in scale, through the integration of mass transit -- and, again, this is looking way down the road -- we can imagine reducing the scale of those streets to two lanes in each direction, when a network of streets comes on board to help disperse traffic and make this more part of Center City as opposed to the suburban character of the road, which it currently has. And to do that, we have to extend Philadelphia's urban fabric, literally bring the streets that are on the west side of I-95 over, through, and across the 1100 acres so that it's an interconnected series of roadways, walkways, sidewalks, few corridors and pedestrian access between the neighborhoods and the river. The foot of Washington Avenue. We can manage Washington Avenue just going the extra half block and 18 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 connecting to a ribbon of green up and down the water's edge. And on the Conrail lands, 250 acres of former Port Richmond rail yards at the northern end by Allegheny Avenue, we can imagine Lehigh Avenue, Cumberland, and other main streets coming through and forming a network of streets and development parcels along with green and active rivers' edges. But it's all got to be thought of in terms of a traffic and transportation policy. How do we manage parking? how do we think about water transportation? how do we think about mass transportation? how do we connect this into the regional rail system -- SEPTA and PATCO -- so that Delaware Boulevard, which is what we're calling the combined Columbus Boulevard and Delaware Avenue, is not soley an automobile thoroughfare but is part of a regional transportation 19 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 network, where we're building the infrastructure for the future in order to make this maturing commercial corridor urban in nature and not suburban, which is how it's trending. So the foot of Market Street gets connected with a ferry terminal to Camden. And the light-rail system, which we talked about, runs down the center of Delaware Boulevard. To do that, we have to really embrace innovative infrastructure. We worked closely with Rhina Cutler when she was at PennDOT to imagine the future of I-95, which will be rebuilt over the next to 30 years. 18 Billions of dollars, of federal money 19 and infrastructure will be pumped into 20 the local economy into rebuilding I-95. Do we rebuild it exactly as it is, or do we take this opportunity to imagine perhaps tunneling, covering over in certain places, making more gracious civic portals and others, but 20 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 using and leveraging the federal investment along with other investments to use this as a way to bridge the divide of I-95. And we looked at a variety of different ways to actually think about the center section, which is where it's most significantly cut off over 600 foot of asphalt between Front Street and Penn's Landing. Are there ways to bridge, deck, tunnel. There's tremendous controversy around this; but, on the other hand, we're at a moment where we can imagine it. It will be rebuilt in the next to 30 years. What studies do we 18 need to do now? what kind of 19 relationships do we need to build in 20 Harrisburg to even think about making this happen?
If we were to do this, Penn's Landing -- which, again, now is disconnected -- would be not only prime development along this beautiful 21 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 new boulevard, but a signature urban park right at the center, at the foot of Market Street, much like parks in New York, Chicago, Boston, and San Francisco are the pride and envy of the rest of the world. So Market Street, which is now disconnected by the I-95 as well as the scissor ramps, if that were to go away, a beautiful new park at the foot of Market Street that is accessible by foot between the river's edge and Market, much like it was for 250 years of our existence, would be recreated. But they're not all big moves. Small moves, such as Frankford Avenue, which is currently a rather desolate connection between the neighborhood and the riverfront, could be enlivened through streets and bike paths and I-95 that's more of a civic portal, and these are ways to connect the neighborhoods with the river while using the infrastructure investment in 22 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 I-95 to make it more of a gracious connection. So if movement systems is the first of the frameworks to make a pedestrian-friendly, human-scaled riverfront, parks and open spaces is the next. And parks and open spaces in this vision are not just beautiful places, but they're actually working: They filter storm water, they filter pollutant, manage storm water, and are active members of the physical infrastructure in helping to kind of achieve a 21st-century city of choice. Penn Treaty Park, one of only eight acres of public land, is imagined in the future as part of a series of trails as well as a naturalized edge that helps to bring wild life back to the river's edge as well as manage storm water and filter pollutants. Penn's Landing, currently a 23 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 sea of parking, is envisioned as a great lawn and really a signature open space of significant urban quality at the river's edge in the center of the Central Delaware. Connecting the riverfront to the City through a series of trails that parallel the river is critical to the vision and. Linking neighborhoods that are currently underserved, with very little green space, such as Pennsport and Whitman, is shown here with a storm-water management park as South Philly, allowing the neighborhoods to be connected with green spaces to the river's edge. The Conrail lands to the north also become a part of a green edge, tidal wetlands and development. And Spring Garden Street, which actually connects the Schuylkill to the Delaware, is imagined as a storm water -- a green street that helps to manage storm water and get 24 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 people to a public park at the Spring Garden terminus, which is on the incinerator side and Festival Pier, which is owned by the City. Investing in a sustainable riverfront means really active, green urban infrastructure. And by that, I mean a river's edge that actually works for us. The city is under a federal mandate to manage its combined sewer and soil outflow into the river. And this is an opportunity for us to get ahead of the curve and begin to use infrastructure investment to meet that mandate in the future so that storm-water management, rain-water collection, pollutants that are filtered at the river's edge are all a part of the green riparian buffer of a hundred foot, which we're calling for in this vision. We worked with the Water Department on potential tidal wetlands 25 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 that could be restored along the river's edge. As the airport expands and wetlands are potentially given up for the expansion of the airport, there's the potential to make compensatory wetlands, which will be naturalized areas along the Central Delaware.
And at Pulaski Park, at the northern end, which is currently another part of the acres of green along the Central Delaware, we can imagine tidal pools that come and go as the river ebbs and flows in terms of coming into view the industrial past that's celebrated through the restoration of the gantries and new development that's part of the burgeoning knowledge economy of the future. At the Girard Avenue interchange, we worked closely with PennDOT, and this is a project that's happening in real time. Almost 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 $900 million of investment in this interchange alone is being considered at the moment. And how can we make it something that actually adds value to the neighborhood, adds connectivity, creates opportunities for connections under the interchange, manages storm water in a way that actually creates green, healthy spaces as part of connected series of trails, has ecological sound walls, and is all part of connecting neighborhoods with the river in a way that is not only sustainable but elegant and fun. Behind Wal-Mart in South Philadelphia, an unused service road is imagined as part of the trail that can connect north and south along the Central Delaware, and then over time, is part of a larger park and naturalized tidal wetlands system at Pier 70. So if we have movement systems and we have open space, the rest is 27 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 development. And how do we begin to think about development? Again, the goals are that this is a connected urban, urbane, humane, pedestrian- oriented part of the City. It is not a suburb part of the City, which it currently, you could say, it's characterized as. The big-box stores, the sea of parking lots that currently characterize the southern part of the Central Delaware in particular are something you might find in exurbs or parts of South Jersey not necessarily in a dense, historic city. It's important to stress -- and here is, again the potential of what the mixture of uses could look like, everything from the working port, which is the purple to the left, to housing, commercial, retail and other uses. It is important to stress that the casino issue dominated this process for the 13 months that we were 28 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 leading it. We tried very hard to say this is not about casinos; it's about investment in infrastructure and it's about the way Philadelphia wants to grow over time, that cities are large, flexible organisms that can accommodate a multiplicity of uses. And, in fact, William Penn's original grid plan, which now accommodates everything Alfreth's Alley to the Comcast Tower, still serves today as our primary system of movement, parks, and open spaces. And so, taking that philosophy and extending it out over the Central Delaware, we hope to say this isn't about specific uses but the way that buildings act on their sites, the way you get to them, how you manage traffic, how you create open space, and what the form of the building is like, what's the proper size, how do you get through sites, how do you get to the river's edge. 29 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 The advisory group voted in May of '07 to include what is called "a build and no-build option" in the report, and that is before you. So our report really doesn't focus specifically on the casino sites. It says, if the casinos were built -- this diagram, which actually is a little light, shows the scale of those properties relative to the scale of the grid structure that we're proposing. So they're large sites and they have the potential to block access to the river's edge. But we thought it was more important -- and this is really what we think is important for you in your work today as you move this potential legislation through Council -- to think about what are important guidelines to guide development.
Rather than say one use is good or one use is bad, we felt it was more important to put forward guidelines 30 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 that said buildings should relate to a street grid. And a street grid that's a Philadelphia street grid, we're saying 500 foot. Penn's original grid is roughly 400 foot by 400 foot. That's a comfortable dimension for Philadelphia. It makes us -- we know how to walk it, we know what it feels like to be on a rowhouse block that's 400 foot without a driveway that cuts through. It's kind of in our DNA that this is part of how we measure ourselves against the built environment. So we felt that that was an appropriate dimension to bring across onto the Central Delaware. We also thought that the hierarchy of the streets -- just like Broad Street and Market Street are big streets, Chestnut and Walnut are secondary streets, and then Sansom and others are tertiary -- that the Central Delaware would benefit from a similar kind of street network. 31 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 So we're looking at the boulevard as the main connecting link with light rail, a network of streets that can be subdivided as developers and the City wish, and then a hundred-foot riparian buffer to help filter storm water and manage pollutants. To do that, building should meet the street edge. Just like everything around us comes up to the sidewalk with active retail on the ground floor, that's what makes a city truly urban, where you want to walk the distance between Rittenhouse Square and City Hall because there's things to see and do and look at, and it's not dominated any one single use, blank walls, or driveways. So active uses on the ground floor and buildings that meet the street edge. Parking, then, is handled carefully. It should be hidden where it can be -- either wrapped within the 32 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 building, underground if possible, or part of a remote parking car-share or mass-transportation system. This really gets to -- a critical part of the civic vision is, how do we manage traffic and transportation and parking so that it does not dominate the physical landscape, because large parking structures that are visible multiple lanes of traffic where pedestrians can't cross make the riverfront, or any part of this city that's dominated by those characteristics, unfriendly and unwelcoming. So how we manage parking, how we deal with traffic is a critical part of our thinking. Green spaces that are both public and private, green roofs, courtyards, a network of open spaces all contribute to the health and viability of what we're calling a 21st-century city. 33 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 And then massing of building, towers that are staggered for views allow people to live in a variety of different building types and forms, not calling for any one specific form in general. The piers: Sixty-one of them that line the river's edge are important development opportunities but also could be overbuilt if we're not careful. How do we manage the development of the piers, protect public and private views, allow for parking, and also protect the river's edge? So this shows a series of subdistricts, which is basically helping the Zoning Code Commission as it does its work, and it breaks down to the various geographic areas as well as different market forces that are currently occurring on the Central Delaware. So a quick view of what this 34 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 might look like. Looking from the north, from Allegheny Avenue over the Conrail lands, as we imagine the network of streets, open spaces, and development parcels, it's essentially an extension of Philadelphia to the river's edge, with lots and lots of development. And in the south, across the Ikea, Wal-Mart, and other areas of -- that include big boxes and lots of parking, we imagine Whitman, Pennsport, Queen Village also extended out across the Central Delaware.
Again, this is long-term. We manage imagine a master plan that will create the template for growth, but ultimately, as market conditions kick in over time, there will be the infrastructure that's developed and implemented in order for this plan to be realized. And at Penn Treaty Park, we can imagine the adaptive reuse of the 35 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 power station, with development surrounding it and people coming to the river's edge in a truly urban and exciting fashion. And if you'll give me about two more minutes, I'm going to take you on a flyover of what the Central Delaware might look like as it goes from kind of a largely post-industrial landscape to one that is urban and connected and a part of the extension of Philadelphia to the river. )
The 36 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 Chair recognizes Councilman Kenney.
Thank you, Madam President. It was a very impressive presentation, and I know that you have worked very hard on it and Councilman DiCicco has worked extremely hard in trying to bring this vision to a reality. A long-term question I have, and this is as a member of the Penn's Landing Board for the past, god, twenty-some years: The ownership of the parcels along the entire waterfront are mixed, are varied from public ownership to private ownership, you know, as you went through your presentation, old industrial uses. How do you -- or has the discussion been had to talk about how you manage individual development desires over the course of or 30 years? 24 'Cause what I always remember 25 about these large kind of Penn's 37 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 Landing projects is that they were really massive in scale, and they had a lot of iterations, and they would be -- they started out more grand than they wound up, and it was a very frustrating process. Since this all needs to be coordinated in some fashion, how do you keep -- or how do you manage a private owner or a private developer from developing parcels of land that maybe don't fit into the vision of the green, open, environmentally-friendly riparian touching edge? 'Cause it's hard when people own their own property if they want to build either a high-rise residential property or they want to do some commercial or entertainment use. What's the suggestion to try to not slow it down but manage it in a way that it fits into the overall vision?
That's a great question. Thank you, Councilman 38 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 Kenney. I'm going to try to break that down in a couple of different responses. One is: This is going to take time. If it didn't happen overnight, it's not going to be solved overnight. The City, as we all know, has the ability to create zoning, to create a master plan, and ultimately decide the form of its city in terms of streets, open space, and transportation networks, but it will take a concerted effort to create the master plan, work with the development community and the private ownership. The Delaware is largely, 95 percent, privately controlled, whether it's the port, private development. The City owns about two miles, but that's under the control of the Penn's Landing Corporation. So in the interim, which is what my op-ed says today: First, do 39 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 no harm. Let's agree -- if these are the principles that are important, then let's figure out a way to use them to, in the very short term, use that to guide decision-making. At the same time, we've spoken with the Councilman's office and working with the civic associations to do an interim zoning overlay that would help to codify the goals of the Central Delaware, while the Zoning Code Commission is working to ultimately do long-term zoning reform. This could be one of their test cases, given that a lot of work has been done. There also needs to then be a master plan that lays out the intention of the City streets put on paper that say, When this parcel gets developed, a street will go in. It's a long-term and difficult but, we think, something worth striving for structure. 40 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 There is the Penn's Landing Corporation and whether or not it's reformed as something that we think needs to be discussed. We've talked about that, it's in my op-ed today, that it has the potential to be a progressive, open and transparent implementation and management agency. I think it's up to Council and the new administration to determine how they want to move forward on managing this kind of growth.
Do you think that the development of the public land first sets the tone for the overall vision?
For example, that two-mile strip -- I mean, I've always felt that with all of the private development proposals that have gone at Penn's Landing, I'm really glad none of them ever happened because I think we would have been stuck with 41 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 something we didn't want there, and for numbers of reasons, the two or three or four of them went by the wayside, and I'm happy in retrospect that that's the case.
I've always concluded, after all these years, that somehow, large public subsidies are going to be needed to develop that particular two-mile parcel in a way that's accessible and open to the public and really fits into what it is you're outlining here. But you do believe that trying to get the publicly-owned parcels developed in this vision first will set the tone for it?
Yes, absolutely. Those are a bird in hand. We have them, they are a tremendous asset, and making them a green and public space will increase the value 42 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 of everything around it. We know that from Rittenhouse Square, where the Parking Authority invested $6 million in the parcel just to the north of the square, and they sold it for $37 million a couple years later. Quality, open space is a tremendous incentive for private development. The model in Philadelphia has been, Let's pump money -- put development on public land. We want to -- we're trying to turn that on its end: Let's public money in public space to help support and enhance the value of the private sector.
And I totally agree 'cause I think that what we've seen over the years are kind of unworkable projects that -- again, the last one tat we worked very hard on, if it had gone there, I think, would have been an absolute disaster in the end.
So I'd like 43 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 to keep that public space open. Thank you, Madam President.
You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilman DiCicco.
I would kind of like to pick up on one of the questions that Councilman Kenney asked about the development and the vision specific to the Foxwoods 'cause, obviously, that's the purpose of this hearing today. Do you think that the Foxwoods plan of development fits the civic vision?
Could you elaborate on why you don't think it 44 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 does?
It includes a million and a half square feet of structured parking, which is equal to roughly football fields or 7 one-and-a-half John Wanamakers or 8 one-and-a-half One Liberty's as exposed 9 parking structure which would dominate 10 the streetscape as well as the 11 landscape. So that's one of the 12 issues. 13 Their parking remediation 14 suggestions make the Delaware 15 Boulevard -- or Columbus Boulevard at 16 that point more highway in nature and 17 less pedestrian-friendly and is really 18 a short-term solution to what is a 19 long-term challenge, which is a 20 maturing commercial corridor that is 21 trending towards dense urbanization 22 and needs to be thought of in a more 23 kind of wholistic traffic and 24 transportation program. 25 The site itself covers 45 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 approximately 8 to 900 foot of frontage on Columbus Boulevard and is not broken at the 500-foot intervals, which we're calling for in terms of the Philadelphia street pattern. There's no active uses at the street edge. The building itself is set back behind what is essentially kind of a traffic park. And so it would be very difficult to get to it by foot and to kind of want to get there because there's large parking ingress and egress and access to the building. So it's not a pedestrian-scale or a pedestrian-friendly destination.
You answered all three of my questions with that one statement, and I thank you, in the interest of time. Thanks, Madam Chair.
You're welcome. The Chair recognizes 46 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 Councilman Greenlee.
Thank you, Madam President. Good morning, Mr. Steinberg.
Actually, bouncing off of what Councilman DiCicco said: Have you, as a result of the concerns you have with the Foxwoods design,s have you had conversations with anybody dealing with Foxwoods, or have they engaged you at all? Has there been any back-and-forth on that?
We have met with representatives of Foxwoods nearly from the beginning of this process to just understand where they were, and we have given them as well as SugarHouse briefings on the Central Delaware through the process, but we did not feel it was our role to actually advise them on design or be critics, per se. So our job was, as we saw it, to walk a very fine line between not 47 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 commenting on use because we know that that's a sensitive issue, but to what our appropriate design guidelines to help manage the growth of the whole corridor, not just this site. So our focus was to always be as open and honest about where we were going with this process as it evolved through the civic forums, feedbacks, and best practices, share that information but not critique or design individual parcels.
Let me first echo Councilman Jim Kenney's remarks regarding the -- how comprehensive, thorough, and detailed this presentation was; it was quite 48 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 impressive.
To Councilman Greenlee's question, you stated that as some point in the process, you had conversations with Foxwoods and SugarHouse regarding this presentation here today.
At what point? We met with Foxwoods and with SugarHouse, I believe, as early as last fall, really just to get information and meet them and to show that we're trying to reach out to everybody.
What we did -- from the very beginning, our strategy, politically -- and I say it in kind of a small P -- was to reach out to everybody.
Before the advisory group even met, which is the official body, we met with nearly all of the civic association that line 6 the river wards to show them that we 7 were independent, honest, neutral 8 brokers. 9
Not everyone 11 believed that and there was a lot 12 suspicion throughout, but our goal was 13 to dispel that by being as transparent 14 and open as possible. 15 We did --
I'm sorry. We did the same thing with the casino operators as well as other developers up and down the corridor. So we met with Jeff Rotwood, who is a lawyer at Obermeyer, who was involved with Foxwoods. We met with Keating and -- Dan Keating and his group, 50 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 which included Ian Cope, from Copelander, who were working on SugarHouse, and that was before we had any designs on paper.
The designs didn't emerge until about four months into the process. So we spent four months listening, learning, researching, and analyzing best practices.
We brought folks from around the country to Philadelphia to share what they've done on their waterfronts.
We brought in teams of designers from around the world as well as locally to kind of help start to think if we have best practices, if we have citizen values, if we have input from a variety of stakeholders, how can we start to solve 51 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 this problem.
So we consciously waited to declare anything until we had done a lot of listening and learning.
And then the ideas started to come out, and then we shared again, and we went -- we had a meeting at -- I believe it was at the Obermeyer law firm, where there were representatives of the two casinos, where they were given a briefing on the emerging systems of transportation, movement, open0space development, and the guidelines for development that was presented to them last summer.
Okay. So you answered my subsequent question, which was: When you initially sat with them, you did not have a document like this to share with them, which might be 52 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 helpful in informing and instructing subsequent steps?
There wasn't anything to -- and one of the fascinating parts of this process as well as what you're doing is that, you know, there are projects in play and how you -- and this gets back to Councilman Kenney's question: How do you begin to kind of manage growth in a way that balances public good and private investment, while there are projects that are working their way through the pipeline.
Mm-hmm. And to make sure I heard you correctly, you've since met the with the parties connected with the casinos since the publication of this document, so they've had a chance to see this tangible document and react to it? 53 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028
Okay. And I ask that question because, in response to Councilman Greenlee's question, you indicated that there have been discussions. Discussions with a document is one thin; discussions without a document is something else.
Yeah. This has been very public and very -- you know, the public has been apprised of this throughout. It's been in over 80 or 90 articles in the newspapers. We have a website where everything is videotaped and online. So it's all out there. And we've certainly met with as many people as we can, but we haven't -- I do not believe we've met with the casinos post-issuing the documents itself. 54 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028
Okay. Central Delaware Advisory Group is an agent of whom?
The Central Delaware Advisory Group was created by executive order of Mayor Street --
And it runs -- it expires in '09, so it's currently active in its -- there's civic 15 associations which have decided to stay active.
And we're helping to work with them to create an active plan.
Thank you, Madam President. 55 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028
You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilman Clarke.
I wanted to ask you a question more centered around the mass-transit component. I don't know what level of specificity you got into the practicality of it, but it's something that I've thought for quite some time regardless of what happens ultimately related to the casinos or any other development that should be explored. I actually had the occasion, like Councilman Kenney, to sit on the Penn's Landing Board for a while doing the -- I guess it was the Bartolo -- 56 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 the Simon project, and it was a massive proposal. It wasn't very green in any standards whatsoever, and it didn't happen, obviously. But during the discussion, it was thought, even back then, that there needed to be some sort of a mass transit component. I actually had an opportunity -- and this is maybe three or four years -- maybe four or five years ago, to ride a train. Mr. Bennett Levin, who actually used to be the L&I commissioner, he had a -- he brought one of his trains down, a passenger train, and he took a number of Councilmembers and state legislators for a ride. And the ride started at the Hyatt Hotel, and he actually took us all the way up to East Falls. It was amazing that we had the ability.
Yeah. I 57 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 was like, wow, I had no idea you could actually connect and understanding that. Is there -- did you -- when you got into the mass-transit proponent, first of all, did you look at the practicality of bringing rail? And you would obviously either have to share the tracks on the southern end with the CSX I believe it is?
And then further up -- extending it further up the river. Did you look at, first, the practicality of putting something like that down there in terms of the infrastructure and then the ability to actually tie that into other areas throughout the City, similar to what we did on that ride?
It was a long question, I know, but I -- 58 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028
But I think it's a critical question. I think in developing the riverfront as well as developing the rest of this city, our mass-transit infrastructure is a tremendous asset that we have. And as oil's at $104 gallon and they expect it to be $4 a gallon at the pump by summer, it's only going to get worse. So the -- so what we're trying to do with this report is position Philadelphia to really sort of seize that opportunity, build the relationships with Washington, where we hope federal dollars will be disbursed differently than they are now, and begin to kind of have that kind of infrastructure investment that's critically needed along the Central Delaware. We worked closely with SEPTA and PATCO throughout this process. And PATCO, as you know, us studying light rail along the Central Delaware 59 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 right now that could connect with the Stadium District as well as with east Market Street and the subway surface lines. So they are in the process of beginning to kind of look at it from a kind of deeper feasibility level. They've invited me to be a part of their technical advisory committee, which Rhina Cutler is part of as well as Paul Levy, who's interested in this issue. Our traffic consultants, as well as our design consultants, looked at dimensionally the feasibility of adding light rail to Delaware Boulevard in its kind of width and right-of-way, and it is feasible. It's also feasible, from what we understand, to use the existing freight rail with a modification that they could switch from both. Cities such as San Diego, Seattle, and others do share the right-of-way between 60 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 passenger and freight. So one of the things I called for in today's op-ed is: Don't give up that right-of-way. There could be the urge to do so to get more traffic in particularly to some of the development and add more turning lanes, but if we give up that right-of-way, we give up what I think is really the future of the waterfront, which is in making sure that mass transit is a vital part of the realization of the vision.
Mm-hmm. Understanding the -- what I believe the obvious significant costs of implementing such a program, at what point will you start looking at the costs associated with doing something like that on, you know, maybe a phased approach? Because even if we're looking at the federal government, in order to get enough allegation of funding, you have to start far out and 61 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 work your way through the system and ultimately get a phased revenue stream to support such a significant improvement.
And PATCO, that's a part of their work that they're undergoing right now as a part of a phased feasibility study to ultimately make the case for implementing this kind of investment. At the moment, the deck is stacked against us, to use a bad analogy, because --
Density usually drives investment, and we don't have the density yet. It's a chicken and egg, so how you start to craft that argument --
Oh, okay. 62 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 Well -- so is that the parameters that they're operating around, that you need to be able to have a significant amount of potential traffic -- customers in order to justify such a use?
There's a number of metrics that the federal government uses in terms of investment in that kind of infrastructure, and many of them are being requested right now in terms of the way the gas tax is redistributed to the states for highway reinvestment as opposed to transportation investment. And there's a bill that's coming up at the end of this session in Congress that could ultimately raise the gas tax to 40 cents, from what is now currently 18 cents, over the next five years that could then start to put significant investment into transportation in the inner-city. So I think the moment is now to really have us start to think that 63 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 way, with the potential for a change in the White House, a change in Congress at the end of this year. With Congress starting to think more broadly about the implications of global warming and rising gas tax, mass transportation, then, becomes a critical part of that discussion. We currently fund transportation as part of a -- the Highway Funding Act of 1956, which largely goes to building new highways in areas that are congested. So a shift in paradigm is potentially coming down the road, and this sets us up, I think, for this conversation in a way that's critical.
You're welcome. Are there any further questions? 64 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 (No further questions.)
Mr. McPherson, our next witnesses? MR. McPHERSON: Our next witnesses are: Charles Denny, from the Streets Department; and Fran Harney, who is an assistant district traffic engineer for PennDOT. (Witnesses come forward.)
Good morning. Madam President and members of the committee, I thank you for the opportunity to appear. My name is Charles Denny, and I am the acting chief traffic engineer for the Department of Streets, and I'm here to offer testimony on Bill No. 080026 and Bill No. 080027. The Streets Department has 65 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 been working with PennDOT in reviewing the impact of the casinos on the Delaware for the past few years. Each casino provided preliminary impact studies to the Streets Department and PennDOT for our review last year. Both agencies reviewed the preliminary studies and issued a joint letter that required a collection of additional data, identification of additional mitigation measures, and requested that traffic engineering consultants for the two separate casinos share traffic projection since one casino's crosses over into the area of the other casino. This should be a part of the traffic impact analysis. The casinos have agreed to use the Market Street as the boundary between the two casino areas. Foxwoods would be responsible for mitigation measures south of Market Street along Columbus Boulevard, and 66 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 SugarHouse would be responsible for mitigation measures north of Market Street along Columbus Boulevard/ Delaware Avenue. Both the Streets Department and PennDOT have stated that the goals of each organization are to reduce the effect of the additional traffic generated by the casinos to a minimum and to keep that traffic on the main highway, Columbus Boulevard/Delaware Avenue, and off the local roadways. Both agencies have stated that all mitigation measures identified in the impact study for Phase I are to be installed before the (indiscernible) casinos open. Traffic consultants for each casino have redone their traffic impact studies and resubmitted them to the Streets Department and PennDOT with the additional information that was requested. These studies are being reviewed by both the City and 67 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 State departments, and these reviews are not yet complete. Specifically, on the Foxwoods casino site and the mitigation measures, I have preliminarily reviewed some of the plans and their studies. This site has more challenges than the other casino. The streets Department has the same challenges with Columbus Boulevard today from Walnut Plaza to the Morris Street on-ramp to I-95. The solutions require physical changes to several intersections to make the existing conditions work and to handle future traffic generated by the Foxwoods Casinos. Excluding the changes at the entrance to Foxwoods Casinos, the following changes will be required: Add a second northbound turn lane from Columbus Boulevard to the combined I-95 I-676 ramp, keeping three moving lanes northbound and 68 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 southbound on Columbus Boulevard. Add a second northbound turn lane from Columbus Boulevard at Washington Avenue, keeping three moving lanes northbound and southbound on Columbus Boulevard. Establish a new left turn and traffic signal at Columbus and Morris Street for the northbound traffic to reduce the need for traffic to make U-turns on Columbus Boulevard or to travel through neighborhood streets to reach the southbound I-95 ramp. Replace the all-way stop control at Water and Morris Streets with a traffic signal, which causes the traffic heading to I-95 southbound ramp to back up onto southbound Columbus Boulevard. The other signals not at the site require signal retiming and possible restriping of some approaches. The three intersections at the 69 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 site -- Reed, Dickinson, and Tasker Street with Columbus Boulevard -- require that the intersections and the signals be redesigned. The streets Department and PennDOT system are still reviewing the design package that was submitted. In addition, Bill No.
080027 provides that the zoning map change for a Commercial Entertainment District for the proposed Foxwoods Casinos sites contain several conditions that need to be met before the ordinance can take effect. Among these conditions is Section 3(a)2 of the bill, which calls for an independent traffic analysis. The administration supports this condition and other terms and conditions contained within the Bill 22 080027. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today, and I am here to answer any questions. 70 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028
Thank you. Mr. Harney, are you going to testify?
I don't have any formal testimony; I'm just here in support of Charlie Denny.
Thank you. Mr. Denny, you state that the Streets Department and PennDOT have been working with the two proposed casino operators on various traffic engineering issues and that each casino has redone their traffic impact studies and resubmitted them to the Streets Department and PennDOT, and that the review of these amended studies is not yet completed. When can we expect to see a report from the Streets Department and also PennDOT?
I think either by the end of this month or the middle of 71 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 next month.
Are you saying that at least six design changes must be made by Foxwoods? If these changes are not agreed to, will the Streets Department withhold approval of the project plan?
Are these design changes the only changes that will need to be made for the Foxwoods project, or do they only relate to Phase I of the project; and if it is only Phase I, what additional phases -- or changes, I'm sorry, will have to be made for Phases II and III?
The report's just for Phase I, and I need to look a little further to see what will be necessary for additional phases.
Well, is your report going to indicate all three phases? It should.
The initial report 72 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 does -- did include the additional phases of the casinos as they moved on and identified some potential improvements to be associated with those phases. However, as we go through the current negotiations, we are only discussing Phase I and those improvements that are associated with Phase I.
Well, do you think it's prudent to proceed with Phase I of this project without knowing whether the traffic requirements for proceeding with -- (Applause.)
Phase s II and III will be in place at the future time?
That's obviously a very good question and something we are also considering.
Well, the report that we will be getting at the end of the month, will that be 73 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 all-inclusive, or are we just talking about Phase I?
We are primarily talking about the initial phases of the casino at this time and how to mitigate those initial traffic projections, and that has been agreed to with both casinos at this time, but that doesn't mean that that's the end of the discussions.
No. 15 I that's not an answer to the question. Mr. Denny?
There will be additional mitigation measures required for the subsequent phases as more traffic is generated by the two sites, 74 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 and they won't be able to expand to the later phases unless those are done.
Well, that's not a very prudent way of doing things, in my opinion. Councilman DiCicco?
Well, I guess I was going to basically make the same statement. I mean, if you do the Phase I, and you said you'll address the issues going forward with II and III, will there be -- do you know whether there will be the need to acquire some private properties in order to add some travel lanes and things? Shouldn't that be a part of our forward-thinking? I mean, we just saw a civic vision, which your department was a party to. These are the things we probably didn't do many, many years 75 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 ago and we should be doing now, whether it's casinos or not, with the anticipation of development that's going on down there anyway. Is there a much more futuristic vision for how we would move traffic up and down Columbus Boulevard/Delaware Avenue in relationship to the casinos being developed or not? Phase I, we know what the anticipated vehicular traffic will be. And as the Council President's asking, should we -- I believe it would be prudent for us to have a much more forward vision of what we will need -- what will need to be done in order to accommodate Phases II and III, should they ever become a reality.
We believe the SugarHouse will -- Columbus Boulevard will be able to handle the traffic generated by SugarHouse in the later phases. 76 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 The southern one, again, has more challenges. There were recommendations for an additional ramp off of I-95, and that requires more work in terms of finding out where that would be sited.
And don't know one? That's the title of a song, I think.
The Chair recognizes Councilman Greenlee. 77 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028
Thank you, Madam President. I guess my question's along sort of the same lines, maybe just slightly different. I mean, obviously, one of the concerns raised the very day that Foxwoods was recommended or approved, whatever word you want to use, was the whole issue of traffic and how you get there and all of that kind of stuff. Now, I know you say, you know, that the traffic consultants for each casino have re-done their traffic impact studies. You said you -- so that's that means that you've had conversations with them in some form. How long back -- how long has that been going on?
There were reports generated prior to that, when there were six casinos in consideration that we reviewed. But for these two specifically, the last year and a half. 78 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 And we provided a joint letter last August to both casinos in terms of what we required in terms of additional information and mitigation measures.
Okay. So you would basically say they've done what they were supposed to -- I mean, is that what would be your statement, that they dealt with the issue, is that -- I mean would that be...
Not completely. We're still going through the report, and we'll still have requirements for them to do, but --
I guess one of the things in your statement -- and I'm not trying to be critical, but you talk about some things like turning lanes and timing and that. And, again, 79 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 I go back to what I first said: You had a problem there in the beginning. With all due respect to the Streets Department, why haven't you done some of those things already to fix what's already there? (Applause.)
Because we have a -- don't -- do you agree -- I guess I should ask first, do you agree that there's a problem now, that there's a traffic-flow problem now?
Yes. And the two ones are the double turns required at Washington and at the double ramp to I-95, I-76.
And that requires a good bit of additional money, which we did not have available, to rebuild those two intersections and get the extra lane constructed in either one of those.
But I 80 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 know one of the things you say here is, the other signals not onsite require signal significantly timing and possible restriping. I mean, is that -- the timing doesn't sound -- the retiming of things --
We have prepared new timing plans; we have not implementing them. We will be implementing them within the next month or so on that section from -- from basically Walnut Plaza on to Columbus Commons, changing the cycle and improving the green time for pedestrians crossing.
Again, not to be confrontational or critical 81 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 here, but that's been a problem for a while, hasn't it?
There were a number of problems. It wasn't working properly to start with; we fixed that. But it's still -- we realized we needed to make the changes, and we've been working on making those changes. But we have not at this point implemented -- we still have to work out the actual coordination of the signals, how we're going to group them together, because we're going to a longer cycle length, which tends to make things more sluggish and slower. And we have to choose how we pair or group the signals together to maximize the flow north and south, so it's less sluggish.
Now, the 82 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 timing of those lights, or some of the other things you're doing, is that in a sense -- I guess the only way to say this, is that speeding traffic through a little bit more? Would that be the -- because it wouldn't get backed up. Is that --
We're not speeding them through; we're trying to move them through more efficiently. We're moving them through groups of vehicles in platoons so that there's a series of lights that are green that the vehicles move through; and then when they get to a light that's red, they've got to stop, wait for that to change and then move through that next grouping. We're also increasing the time for pedestrians to cross from what they're getting now so that they'll be getting a little bit more time.
That change you have in the traffic, how does that affect pedestrian flow, as you could see? 'Cause I think at our last hearing, the folks from Foxwoods -- and I think everybody would agree that if we can, you know, improve pedestrian flow, that obviously helps also. So is that where we'd see that --
We'll be timing the lights so that the pedestrian leaving the curb gets all the way across in one across; where, in many cases, they don't do that now, they're only going halfway, and then they have to wait for the next cycle.
Okay, all right. Let me just, in a sense, repeat my first question and then I'll -- I won't dominate here. The Streets Department has not yet approved what -- we're going to hear from Orth-Rodgers. Have they 84 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 actually -- are they in agreement with what Orth-Rodgers is saying? Or I thought I heard you say that there are still other discussions to have or --
We are still reviewing their proposal and we will be making a joint letter from PennDOT and the Streets Department to each of the casinos but to Foxwoods concerning that particular report and what their design shows.
So is it fair to say at this point that traffic engineering is not quite there yet, as saying that they agree that this -- the plan, as described by the consultant for Foxwoods, they are not totally in agreement with yet? Is that a fair statement?
And you're still working with them on that; is that what you said?
All right, okay. Thank you. Thank you, Madam President.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Kenney.
Thank you, Madam President. First let me preface my question/comment with no desire to give you guys a hard time. I know you're technical people, this is what you do, and I know the task you've been given is probably fraught with some pressure to kind of get this thing moving, especially from the Harrisburg side. And I don't need you to comment, and I understand that. What confuses me is not Phases 86 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 II and III but Phase I. The six things that have been recommended don't seem to me to be that significant of changes that are going to really make this any -- much better than it is today, or with the additional 25,000 vehicles as expected. And what I'm confused about is that on one hand, the testimony says that we're trying to do something with light-timing to move the vehicles more efficiently, while, at the same time, giving people a longer period of time to cross the street. I don't know how you do both. If you're going to move cars -- not speed them through, but if you're going to move them through in a more -- in a quicker or a more effective, efficient manner, how do you get people the time to cross the street if you're moving these vehicles faster than they are moving now? 87 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028
We're basically going to a longer cycle length. We're going from 90 to 120, so we have 30 seconds we're separating -- we're giving some of that time to the pedestrians to cross and we're giving some of that time to the traffic to go through north and south.
All right. I -- because -- I mean, as someone who uses that area all the time, including the Water Street passageway, if you call it that, I mean, right now, I think we have too many streets under 95 and on Water Street that are going in two different directions, which really are confusing. I mean, if you stop at that intersection at Water and Tasker and to try to get through it, it's a very, 88 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 very dangerous people, despite how small it is. People are turning left as you're trying to get across Water, people are not stopping at the stop sign, people are backing up from Tasker Street from Columbus Boulevard to Water. It's just -- there's two lanes of traffic under the highway of those streets, which makes it very difficult to turn and very difficult to cross, 'cause there's cars coming all the time. I mean, I appreciate the efforts on Phase I for additional lanes and signage and lights and timing; I don't really think that's enough. I really just -- I don't think it's enough. (Applause.)
Just knowing the conditions now, it's just -- it's really scary. But, again, I mean no 89 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 disrespect. I know you're doing your job and I appreciate you're doing your job, and we love our Streets Department and PennDOT's wonderful, but I just -- I think you're trying to fit a square peg in a round hole down there, and I don't think it's going to work. So that's just my comment.
Thank you. Are there any other questions? The Chair recognizes Councilman DiCicco.
Thank you, Madam Chair. And good morning again, gentlemen. The questions I had on pedestrians have already been asked. The suggestions that you're making on the changes as it relates to traffic -- pedestrian traffic, vehicular traffic -- on Columbus/ Delaware Avenue Boulevard, what, if 90 3/10/08 - RULES COMMITTEE - 080027, 080028 any, impact will they have on the feeder streets coming from the west, obviously?
As you give more time to the pedestrians, you're giving more time to the east-west streets because they're sharing that time with the pedestrians.