Committee Hearing, March 26, 2008

COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - BUDGET - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Wednesday, March 26, 2008 10:10 a.m. - - - PRESENT: COUNCILWOMAN MARIAN B. TASCO COUNCILWOMAN JANNIE BLACKWELL COUNCILMAN DARRELL L. CLARKE COUNCILMAN W. WILSON GOODE, JR. COUNCILMAN CURTIS JONES, JR. COUNCILMAN JACK KELLY COUNCILMAN JAMES F. KENNEY COUNCILWOMAN JOAN L. KRAJEWSKI COUNCILMAN BRIAN J. O'NEILL COUNCILWOMAN MARIA QUINONES-SANCHEZ COUNCILWOMAN DONNA REED MILLER COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO BILLS 080022, 080154, 080155, 080156, 080157, 080160, 080161, 080168 and 080173 - - - V A R A L L O Incorporated Litigation Support Services Eleven Penn Center 1835 Market Street, Suite 600 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 215.561.2220 215.567.2670 2

Good morning. MR. McPHERSON: This is a continuation hearing of Bill Nos. 080022, 154, 155, 156, 157, 160, 161, 168, 173, and the first department is the Fire Department. (Witnesses approached witness table.)

Good morning, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Good morning.

Would you state your name for the record, please, and begin your testimony. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes. Good morning to the members of Council. I am Fire Commissioner Lloyd Ayers. With me is Dave Beatrice, Deputy Commissioner for Administrative Services, and it is our pleasure to testify this morning before the Committee. The mission of the Philadelphia 3 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. Fire Department is to deliver efficient and effective emergency services for the purpose of minimizing the loss of life or property of the citizens and visitors of Philadelphia. We do this by providing services in the following areas: Fire suppression, hazardous materials incident mitigation, comprehensive fire prevention programs conducted throughout our community, fire investigation services to determine the origin and cause of fires, delivery of high quality pre-hospital emergency medical care and transportation. This Administration's goal is to make this city the safest city in the country in terms of the above-stated services. I am pleased to state that this year's budget request takes additional steps in achieving that goal. This Operating Budget request totals $199,761,258. That is $3,922,345 or approximately a two percent increase from the current Fiscal Year '08 4 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. estimated obligations of $195,838,913. There is $192,693,965 being requested in the General Fund, $1,219,293 in the Grants Fund and $5,848,000 in the Aviation Fund. This budget request fully funds our firefighting suppression complement of 60 engine companies, 29 ladder companies, two marine units, one heavy rescue company and one quint company. Funding is available to maintain, repair, replace and upgrade needed firefighting supplies and equipment. Included in this budget is continued funding to replace on an annual basis four breathing air compressor systems at a cost of $160,000. Also in this budget request is funding that allows the Department to provide the following ongoing training initiatives: Ammonia training, HAZMAT exercises, HAZMAT technician training, technical rescue training, and water rescue training. These training exercises are 5 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. necessary so that our members are properly prepared to protect the public and themselves during any type of life-threatening event. These ongoing specialized training exercises are even more necessary due to the infrequency of the occurrence of these types of emergencies. In Fiscal Year 2009, our fire prevention goal is to expand the current Fire Safety Representative program to every City block. Each City block will have one representative who will be the point contact with the local fire station. The representative will be provided with the most up-to-date fire safety information to pass on to the residents of that block. We see this as a system of neighbors helping neighbors in preventing fires, injuries and the needless loss of life. With the fire safety representatives, station captains, Fire Prevention Unit staff and departmental management all working 6 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. together, this program is an opportunity to improve the quality of life in our neighborhoods citywide on a block-by-block basis. In order to increase the safety of our residents, the Department is committed to achieving the goal that every dwelling has at least one working smoke alarm on each level. As part of our Freedom from Fire program, we are working together with the Mayor's Office to obtain funding through various grants and donations to purchase large quantities of ten-year tamper-resistant smoke alarms. Our members will install these smoke alarms properly in houses where needed. Any extra time to escape that these smoke alarms provide to the residents may mean the difference between escaping unharmed or suffering severe burns or even death.

In the Department's continuing effort to provide high quality pre-hospital emergency medical care and 7 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. 9 million in additional funding pledged by Mayor Nutter in February that increased the total number of medic units being operated by five. At the Mayor's direction, on February 12th, the Department implemented Phase I of the three-phase plan to activate additional medic units. Phase II was implemented on February 18th, and on February 25th Phase III was implemented. A total of 50 medic units are now in service. In conjunction with the activation of the additional medic units and to reduce overtime expenditures, the Department's authorized paramedic staffing level has been increased by 80 positions. We are continuing our recruiting efforts targeting graduating paramedics of the Philadelphia region's medical schools to join our department. In addition to the annual 8 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. funding included in the Office of Fleet Management's budget to purchase replacement medic unit vehicles, $336,000 was added to the Fire Department's FY09 budget in Class 428 to purchase two additional medic unit vehicles, with the plan being to purchase three additional medic unit vehicles in FY10. In Classes 317 and 417, $200,000 was added to purchase the medical supplies and equipment required to initially outfit these vehicles. The combined effect of the increase in our medic unit fleet and staffing resources, in conjunction with the City being on the fast track to implementing a brand new state-of-the-art 3-1-1 call center system by the end of the calendar year, along with the City and Fire Department's stepped-up efforts to educate the public on the proper use of 9-1-1 emergency dispatch system, should translate into a reduction in the average response time it takes a medic 9 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. unit to arrive at an incident location. One of our goals is for an advanced life support unit to arrive on the scene of a true emergency medical incident within nine minutes of being dispatched at least 90 percent of the time. That concludes my testimony. I would like to take this opportunity to thank City Council for its continued support of the members of the Philadelphia Fire Department. I speak not only for myself but for all members of the Philadelphia Fire Department in saying that your support is much appreciated. Thank you very much. I'll now be glad to answer any questions.

Thank you very much for your testimony. In your testimony relative to your budget increase, the increase, are those funds from the General Fund or do they come from the Grants Fund? COMMISSIONER AYERS: The funds 10 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. are from the General Fund.

And the increase does reflect the funds for the additional medical units? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes.

Recently, I was watching television on CNN and they were talking about this new light bulb that is energy efficient but, if broken, could cause some serious issues in terms of the disposal because there's some mercury or some hazardous material in the bulb. Are you familiar with that? COMMISSIONER AYERS: I am not familiar with the hazard that's caused by that. I am familiar with fluorescent lighting and some of the hazards that's associated with that. I would have to investigate that.

I think it's important, because the message was that it's very difficult -- you shouldn't touch it if you break a light bulb -- I had been told this before and, you know, 11 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. you don't pay any attention to it. Then I've seen one on CNN all weekend, that there are companies who want to charge an exorbitant amount of money to come in and just remove the hazardous material. So I think we need to begin some education to our citizens on an ongoing basis what to do with these light bulbs. And the other thing is -- I guess I'll ask the Streets Department -- do we dispose of them? How do we dispose of the bulb when they blow out? Do we put them in the trash or do we put them in the recycling bin? COMMISSIONER AYERS: One of the things that we do now is, in conjunction with Streets, we have hazardous material disposal sites and specific dates that we set up throughout the year where the residents can take any of their hazardous materials and properly dispose of them. We have our HAZMAT Administrative Unit, along with the Streets Department, at location. 12 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. What I will do is have the HAZMAT Administrative Unit do a thorough investigation into this and set up a plan to educate the public, which is first and foremost, to educate them, along with this from PECO and from all of the other energy units throughout the state, throughout the country. They're saying that we want these types of light bulbs for saving energy, so we need to complement that with a way to dispose of them. We'll take care of that.

It was really scary when you looked at it, and I just thought I had just taken a bulb out and I tried to figure out what did I do with it. So those of us who were watching the program certainly would probably be more sensitive to how we deal with those bulbs, but I think we do need a strong education program so our citizens will know ongoing. Now, I guess you can do this through also educating our citizens. You 13 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. can do it through your Fire Safety Representative program. Who are these individuals and how are they selected? COMMISSIONER AYERS: These individuals are citizens of the City of Philadelphia. They have to be years 8 of age or older to actually serve in that 9 position. They have to have access to 10 the Internet so that they can send and 11 receive e-mails, and they have to be a 12 responsible type person. 13 They make application to the 14 Fire Department. We get their e-mails 15 and we follow up with the local captain 16 and start the e-mail process and start 17 the interaction with that local block. 18 So these are everyday citizens, volunteers who come out and say we're going to go the extra mile for fire safety. Many of them are our block captains. And one of the things that we've done in conjunction with the Town Watch program, working with them as well, is to get their assistance in recruiting. 14 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. So these are everyday citizens.

It sounds very good. Could you tell me, how many vacancies do you have in your Emergency Medical Unit? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Paramedics?

Yes. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Currently, we have in our configuration 31 vacancies and we have, with the added funding for 80 additional paramedics, there will be 80 additional vacancies.

Explain that to me again. Say that again, please. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Well, with the money that was given graciously from the Mayor and from City Council to our budget, we were able to budget 80 additional paramedics to go into those units that were being put up. So we are in the process of hiring those 80, the 15 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. additional, plus the 31 current vacancies.

So the 31 plus the 80? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Correct.

Okay. COMMISSIONER AYERS: So we expect that that's going to be a process that's going to take approximately into Fiscal Year '09 about third quarter to fourth quarter, in the fourth quarter, before we can get probably the 80 in. The 31 will take a little more additional time. Those positions are currently being filled by firefighters until we can hire. So they're on the street, but we have basic units and dual-staff units that actually serve the public until we can bring those paramedics in.

How long does it take to fill a vacancy? COMMISSIONER AYERS: To fill a vacancy it takes approximately, with the 16 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. recruitment process, I would say probably three to four months. And that's based on the recruitment, that we have an open list right now that we was able to work with Personnel, and now a paramedic, as soon as they are graduated and as soon as they get their certification, they go straight to Personnel and they're on the list. We used to have openings and closings. Now it's continuous hiring. So that was something that was able to help us out. So as soon as they get on the list, we have a class we'll run through. It might take two months to get everybody interviewed and into that class. It's going to take another seven weeks to get them through the Philadelphia process, and then with precepting, it will take another several weeks and then they'll be on the street. We just put seven paramedics on the street and we're preparing to put 16 to 20 into school now.

Is there 17 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. any way you can sort of limit that process? Has the Personnel Department looked at a way to shorten that time? COMMISSIONER AYERS: One of the things --

I mean, does it have to be that long, in your opinion? COMMISSIONER AYERS: I believe for safety and to make sure that the paramedics can operate safely, understand all of our rules, regulations, processes and the required steps that's mandated at the state level, for them to go through that process, I think we've kind of minimized it. The only thing that I believe that would help that process along would be to have a situation where we would have more people going into school, more people coming out right away and we could have larger numbers. But right now in the pipeline I'd say we have approximately 80 or so paramedics that's in school right now 18 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. that we have recruited, Philadelphians.

Okay. The Chair recognizes Councilman Rizzo.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Commissioner, I really want to follow up on what the Chair asked you. You recollect one of the past budget hearings we identified the fact that there was quite a -- I don't want to use the word "boondoggle," but it was close to it between the Fire Department and Central Personnel on the list, and I'm pleased to hear that that process -- at least I believe you suggested that it's changed, it's a continuing hiring practice. COMMISSIONER AYERS: It has changed.

Well, that's good to hear, but I'm still concerned. That's 111 paramedics that you need. Are you concerned that you've got a need for 19 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. 111 employees? COMMISSIONER AYERS: My concern is not that we won't be able to reach that goal. I don't really have a concern based on the numbers, how our numbers look. As far as the actual calls that we receive, which are 80 percent of our calls are for basic life support or something that an emergency medical technician, our capable emergency medical technicians can handle, but those 13 percent emergencies, I'm concerned about 14 those to make sure that we get our times 15 down, to make sure we get our units there 16 in time. Those are the things that 17 concern me. 18

19 Commissioner, since we have this issue 20 and I understood and I recollect -- and I can check the notes of your testimony -- that you indicated that it was a hard job hiring paramedics, that it was not easy to find people that wanted this job in the City. Well, you know your colleague 20 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. in the Police Department asked for some relief to the residency requirement. I understand that you can ask for that. And it doesn't have to be permanent, from what I recollect, that you could really ask for a waiver of the residency requirement until you kind of, no pun intended, put out this fire of vacancies in the Fire Department. Why do you resist? I mean, from the first time I've asked you this question, you resisted wanting to do that. I just can't imagine, knowing that we've got vacancies, you have the money right now for 30, and we're not doing what we need to do. How quickly can you fill those 31 positions and how quickly could you fill the 31 if you didn't have the residency requirement? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Those positions, as I stated, are filled. Those 50 units are running. The fact that they are not paramedics on there 21 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. currently is not an issue for me. One of the reasons that I resist, if you say resist, why I don't look at opening up to the outside as something that's an emergency, is that, one, from past history, the last time we opened up to the outside, we had reciprocity with other states from around the country, we had a high percentage of those folks that came in from other areas that left as well, over 25, 30 percent. When you stop and look, they didn't come in to stay with the Philadelphia Fire Department. We look and we see a lot of our residents, people who were Philadelphians, who came in and stayed, even though some percentage of those Philadelphians did leave. They went in to become nurses. They went into other jurisdictions to work in a lighter loaded system, things like that. So those are one of the things that gives me a little reluctance.

22 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. Commissioner, you indicated that those positions are being filled by firefighters. Well, who is filling the positions for firefighters? You can't have it both ways. You can't have a firefighter taken away from an engine or a ladder company and being assigned to a medic unit. Are you telling me that you're talking about an engine company responding to an emergency? I mean, tell me about these firefighters that you suggest, the 31, that are serving as paramedics. COMMISSIONER AYERS: They're not serving as paramedics. I never said that.

What did you say? COMMISSIONER AYERS: I said that they are serving as emergency medical technicians on a medic unit responding to medical emergencies. They're not paramedics.

Who is 23 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. filling the firefighters' position? I mean, you have extra firemen you don't need? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes. The firefighters work on overtime. As we hire the paramedics, you have less firefighters working in those positions.

So right now to make that work, because you have these vacancies, you're paying firefighters overtime? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Some firefighters.

Some firefighters. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Not all firefighters.

Do you think that's a good situation? COMMISSIONER AYERS: And some paramedics work as well.

Do you think that's a good situation? COMMISSIONER AYERS: I think 24 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. it's a situation that amply supports our system and our service delivery at this point.

Well, Commissioner, I'm concerned as a Councilmember because of the situation that you've described, that you've got 111 vacancies. You've got the money for how many already? You have the money for all 111? COMMISSIONER AYERS: We have the money for 111, and as we hire, we will hire -- the money that's being paid out, part of that money goes to paying for that emergency medical technician. It's not at the ten percent hire rate, which would be for that paramedic, until that paramedic hired, trained and into the system.

Well, again, Commissioner, you kind of -- not challenged, but you commented that I used the word that you resist -- COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes, sir. 25 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc.

-- doing what you need to do to get these positions filled. I would hope that you would revisit this situation and get these positions filled. I mean, I can't imagine. You have the money. You have the ability to go to Central Personnel to do what you have to do to get these positions filled as quickly as possible and we're not doing it. I just don't get it. But you're the Commissioner and I just hope it doesn't come back to haunt us during the summer months. COMMISSIONER AYERS: We have students that are in school studying to be paramedics. Those students will be coming out into our system hopefully over the next several quarters, and we've looked at that. We've recruited those students, and the vacancies are available for them, and we plan on filling those vacancies as we get the students available. We have the Personnel system open so that when they finish, they get 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. on a list. They take this test, and as soon as we can start a class, we start that class, get them in and get them into our system. I'm hoping the same thing that you are hoping, that it's not some issue that points to say that it was a problem because of the hiring or something or another. But one of the other things that I look at is, I don't think that we look at our emergency medical technicians the way that they should be looked at. They're very capable. They can take care of any emergency that's out there. They do a great job for us. One of the things that I'm planning on doing in May is to kind of like accentuate the positive thing that emergency medical technicians have done in our system and continue to do. The tons of letters and everything that I get, not just about paramedics, but about even first responders who come on that fire truck and have that medical 27 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. intervention and those citizens who say how happy that they are to have had those people at that point at that time. We do a great job.

Commissioner, there's no question, but I can tell you, I know personally where the initial responders meant well, they did all they could do, but you could document, I'm sure, how many times those first responders had to call for advanced life support because the initial response was misdiagnosed, the person didn't faint, they had a heart attack, and if the initial response was an advanced life support system, the process would have been compacted and less time spent. We hear all the stories about how long it takes in some cases for advanced life support. And the additional five, I'm sure, is going to be very, very helpful, but in my opinion and many people's opinion in the community, we would love to see the advanced life 28 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. support respond. Having the initial response is great. It could save lives. But still, there's been many cases where those initial responders -- and you'll have to agree with me -- had to call for advanced life support, and that has taken a long time in some cases. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Well, one of the things that we've got from the Mayor and from Council that you've helped us with is to put those other medic units in the system so that we can decrease the time and increase our ability to help the citizens. So I'm thankful for that.

Commissioner, if I have enough time, I just have one more question. Commissioner, could you please give us a short critique on the performance of the 800 megahertz radio system? We understand that there's been issues that have affected the system recently and I'd like to know the impact that the 800 29 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. megahertz radio system has had on the Fire Department. I know that the way the Fire Department uses the system is a bit different than the Police Department, but there have been some outages that have affected the performance of that system. So could you please tell me as the Commissioner of the Philadelphia Fire Department your satisfaction with that radio system? COMMISSIONER AYERS: One of the key pieces to the operation of the 800 megahertz system as related to the Fire Department is, as you mentioned, we use the system much differently on our push to talk, and also we've enjoyed a long-stage training period, which has increased the knowledge and the ability of our firefighters to use the 800 megahertz radio system. We have had some outages at towers over the last months, outages that were short period duration, but the towers were put back in. It would force 30 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. the radio system into other modes of operation. As far as anything that impeded our operation, the problems that we have had that we have documented were at specific sites in specific buildings where we previously documented that there was a problem. Our Incident Commanders have been taught and trained to go to the analog system whenever they have problems like that and to use the analog system to complete the operation.

Commissioner, are you satisfied that the emergency help call button, the panic button, whatever it's referred to, works to your satisfaction? COMMISSIONER AYERS: At this time, we don't have complaints about the way it works. As a matter of fact, one of the complaints that we have is that it's so easy to activate. You can at any day go to Fire Communication Center and you'll see where the dispatcher is 31 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. calling, making sure that they talk to the aide at that incident to say there is an emergency button activation, Engine 63 tip man or Ladder roof person, your 6 emergency button is activated, is there 7 an emergency? You'll hear that sequence, 8 and they will come back and they will 9 say, There is no emergency, we're 10 resetting now. That is very common every 11 day. So it works and sometimes it works 12 where it's been a hindrance, but we'd rather have the hindrance than it not work in a situation when needed.

Have you communicated that concern, that the accidental activation could be problematic? Having that activate like that could be not a good thing. Have you asked Communications to revisit the technology to see if it could be made not as -- that it could be activated accidentally like you've just described? Has there been any improvement upon that? Because I don't think it's a good thing 32 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. that's activating like that, because that could be -- I'm struggling for the word, but it could be problematic. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Well, due to design changes from our first model, it has improved quite a bit. It's something that we're always looking at and talking with the manufacturer about.

So you have old radios and new radios; the old ones are problematic and the new ones are better? COMMISSIONER AYERS: No. No. 15 We've changed them out. We had -- the way the button was exposed which caused even more, we've had a change in that design, and it was a physical design, not anything to the radio itself. (Bell rung.)

Okay. I'll wait until the next go-around, because I want to ask you about what happened to the fireboat. Thanks.

Let me 33 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. follow up on that. What does the contractor do to take care of some of the issues raised by Councilman Rizzo in the system? What obligation does the contractor have to bring the system into first-class operation? COMMISSIONER AYERS: You mean as related to the button situation or the --

The button and probably the whole system, if there's a problem with it. I'm not as familiar with the issue as Councilman Rizzo, but certainly listening to the discussion raises some question in my mind about are we paying for a service that's not first class, and if we are, why are we? And is there a contract and when the contract is up? I mean, how can you address some of these issues? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Well, the City has the contract with Motorola, and any issues that we have in the Fire 34 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. Department -- I'm sure the Police Department is the same -- we bump up to that level. We go through our Communication Center. We have a complaint process and we push those complaints forward.

Have they been responsive in addressing the complaints? COMMISSIONER AYERS: For the most part, they have been responsive to dealing with the event. As far as prevention of the event, I would say that the City and Motorola has an ongoing process where they do process improvement as far as the towers and other things like that. We deal at the ground level with our operation, what is the outcome of those situations, what actually happens in the operation. When we have problems with the operation, we push those things forward.

Well, when does the contract -- is it a contract 35 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. that's a year-to-year contract or three-year contract? What's the term of the contract? COMMISSIONER AYERS: As far as the contract and those types of things, the very specific details, you would have to talk with Public Property.

All right. But does the way that the system is operating, how much does it impede the effectiveness of the Department? COMMISSIONER AYERS: The Fire Department, for us, we have actually improved. When we had issues about coverage and things like that, we had a minimum amount of radios. Our training and the way we use our radios, we have actually given a radio to each and every firefighter and each and every paramedic now. Previously it was only the officers that carried that radio. Now each and every firefighter carries the radio, and we have, even with that amount of radios out there, improved the way we operate on 36 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. the fire ground.

Let me just quickly go back to the vacancies. Who does the recruitment for the Department to hire or to encourage people to become paramedics? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Members of our Emergency Medical System staff. They actually go out. They visit the schools. They talk to the members. They present them with the application process, and then they follow up to make sure that they are aware of the possibility of having that job with the Philadelphia Fire Department, and we're pretty active with it.

So do you get a pretty good pool each time during the recruitment? Is it an ongoing recruitment process or is it periodic? COMMISSIONER AYERS: No. It's ongoing now. Our members go and visit the classes, the schools, how are they doing, do we still have the same numbers 37 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. that we're projecting, those types of things. And then once they apply, say like you may have, say, 30 apply. We may only get based on the history. They 6 may not be able to work for us based on 7 some problem in their past, or sometimes 8 they're physical. Some folks come in, 9 they're overweight, they can't get the 10 job, things like that. And then we get 11 many of those folks who, especially in 12 the issue where they are overweight or 13 something, they work it out and they'll 14 come back and they may be in a subsequent 15 class. 16

Thank you. 17 The Chair recognizes Councilman 18 Jones. 19

Thank you, 20 Madam Chairman. How are you, Commissioner? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Doing fine.

Good. Good. In my district, the 4th District, which 38 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. you're very familiar with being a resident, there is one hospital. Roxborough Hospital is the only actual open emergency room in the 4th Councilmanic District. We avail ourselves of hospitals in the 3rd District, which is Councilwoman Blackwell's, and the 9th District and other places. So when you were able to save the emergency personnel, it really, really made a difference to the 153,000 residents in the 4th Councilmanic District, because often they are the first and only responders at these residents that cannot easily get to emergency rooms. So we are thankful to the work of the Mayor, this Council and you for keeping them open. My second point on that is that you seem to have answered the operational side, but I have some questions about your facilities and whether enough money has been provided in the Capital Budget based on the PICA reports on what some of 39 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. the priorities are, and I wondered if you would speak to that for a minute as to the adequacy of the funding for actually the facility management side. COMMISSIONER AYERS: We were very happy to see that we were going to get those extra funds to get our facilities repaired, worked on. For a long period of time, the Fire Department, along with the Police Department, we've lived in facilities that break down. They're old. Many of the fire stations are a hundred years old or near a hundred years old. You have to keep those facilities up. And we recognize that it's tough keeping those facilities up based on the distribution of those dollars. Again, I say we're happy to see that. One of the things that we're working out with the dollars that we have coming in over the next several years is letting the stations know, This is the priority, you're going to get a kitchen 40 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. in the next quarter of the fiscal year, we won't be able to get to you until X quarter of the fiscal year. We try to let them know that it's coming, but it's on a prioritized schedule. Someone who has had a leaky roof, Engine 50 say, we know that they're up front. They know that they're going to get a roof. But we are showing them that some of those dollars are coming in. I want to see as much as we can get so that our folks who do that hard work out there, that they're comfortable, that they don't have to come in and worry about extra flies in the kitchen because we can't get a pane or a screen repaired or something like that. It makes a difference when we get our facilities worked on. And right now just seeing that we're going to get those funds coming in is good for our organizational membership, and anything that we can get into that budget to help, we appreciate.

Again, I 41 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. recognize the efforts of the Mayor to provide leadership in this regard. I mean, it's important to note when we aren't satisfied as Council and it's also equally important to reinforce positive actions by this Administration to provide needs like that. But Councilman Green, who is not here, who is sick, asked me to ask that based on that PICA report, that only 68 percent of the needed capital is actually going to be provided, and I'm curious and he's curious to find out how are you going to make the tough decisions about what is going to be prioritized over this fiscal year and next. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Well, we have to make those decisions based on the dollars and working with Capital on which are the projects that have to get done. That leaky roof is going to get fixed before we get a brand new refrigerator or something like that, or that heater is going to be replaced so that we don't have an issue like we've had in the past 42 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. where we've had a boiler that actually killed a firefighter because it wasn't serviced properly. Those things are up front, which are life-safety issues, health issues. They're up front. Some of the issues that are less life hazard, they're going to get pushed back, and we just have to work with the dollars that we have. Would I like to have the other money? Absolutely. Absolutely. I've talked with Commissioner Ramsey about doing some other things in the future, where maybe combining stations, things like that, where we can help each other. So we're talking about it, but we see what we have as far as funding and we're going to make sure that it's used in the best way possible.

I just want to reemphasize that we appreciate what you do. I have on my block, I have a number of elderly citizens, and I don't know when the Fire Department actually 43 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. took over the responsibility of being the first emergency responder and when private ambulance companies stopped doing that. Can you speak to that for me? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Our first responder program went into existence around 1988, right around that area, that time frame. And what that is is, of course, on every engine and ladder company, you have an emergency medical technician who is able to come in and start the medical intervention until a medical unit, whether that's a basic unit, dual-staff unit or full paramedic unit, can get to the scene and get that person to the hospital. (Bell rung.) COMMISSIONER AYERS: One of the things in the past that has been our problem is the increase of our carry units. Not necessarily saying that it's got to be a paramedic or it's got to be dual staff or it's got to be basic, but based on that, if we get just in the 44 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. hospital rich, still hospital rich city that we have, if we get someone there to carry that person, get them to the hospital, to that higher level of care, that's the most important thing that we can do for our citizens.

Madam Chairman, we might want to check that clock, because Councilman Rizzo's five minutes was a lot longer than mine. But it's all right.

He was the only one here, so that's why he got a long period of time. So you can come back around.

Okay.

The Chair recognizes Councilman Kelly.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Good morning, Commissioner, Commissioner Beatrice. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Good morning, Councilman. 45 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc.

I hope the republicans have more time than the democrats. I am hoping, because they gave it to my colleague, Mr. Rizzo. Commissioner, as you recall last October, we had legislation to provide adequate hearing protection for firefighters. Can you tell me how that's coming along? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes. We are working hand in hand with Local to 13 sit down and actually hammer out the time 14 frame for which to have the hearing 15 protection provided for all of our 16 firefighters. We're just working 17 together to make sure that we get that 18 funding in and get the exact -- 19

How long is 20 that going to take before each fire 21 station has that equipment for their 22 firefighters? Do you have any idea? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Well, we're working with Risk Management. We're identifying the funds that we'll be 46 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. able to put in over several fiscal years to actually get that done.

So as far as today is concerned, no firefighter has that protection; is that true? COMMISSIONER AYERS: As far as today as outlined, the phones and the mechanism that was outlined, there's no 10 firefighter that has that right now.

Would you say that by the end of this year, that most all firefighters would have access to that equipment? COMMISSIONER AYERS: I don't believe that that's going to happen by the end of this calendar year or this fiscal year.

Is there funding for this equipment in the budget? COMMISSIONER AYERS: In the Fire Department budget, we don't have that funding available. We're working also with Risk Management, and they are part of the committee that's working on 47 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. this. I don't have it in my budget this year.

Well, another item that I'm a little concerned about is that in 2001 there was an arbitration panel that ordered new exhaust systems to be provided in every one of the fire stations. Can you tell me how that's coming along? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes. I'm very pleased to let you know that that has been hammered out, all of those agreements that were necessary for the contract to be let to get those systems installed into our firehouses. We expect that in maybe the third quarter of Fiscal Year '09 we'll have a complete installation. That's our target date.

The target date is October 9? COMMISSIONER AYERS: No, no, no. Third quarter, fiscal year.

Third quarter. Okay. 48 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. How many fire stations have been completed as of today, could you tell me? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Right now two fire stations with this newer type of equipment, which is source capture equipment.

And by third quarter of next year, then all the fire stations would be equipped with this? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes. We have set up a very aggressive schedule with Capital, Risk Management, Fire Department to make sure that we get this taken care of.

I'm not going to bring up the fact that since 2001, it's taken us a long time to get those two fire stations equipped, but I'm hoping under your leadership that you will stick to your guns and you will have these stations probably equipped with this new exhaust system by the third quarter of 2009. 49 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes, sir.

Okay. Do you contemplate any closing or relocating any fire stations for the next year or so? COMMISSIONER AYERS: No, sir. The Mayor was very clear on that and he was just straightforward. That is not a part of plans for this Administration at this point.

Well, is it true that firefighters would have -- (Bell rung.)

I'll have to wait for the next go-around. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Going back on that question, we have a new fire station, at least a rehabilitated fire station, at 76th Street and Ogontz. COMMISSIONER AYERS: That's correct.

Was the diesel exhaust equipment installed in 50 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. that fire station when they renovated it? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes, it has been.

All right. Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman O'Neill. He's not here. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Blackwell.

Thank you. Good morning. Good morning, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Good morning, Councilwoman.

I wanted to thank the Commissioner for so many opportunities in my district and around the City doing smoke detectors, going door to door. The Fire Department, he and his staff, his chief and so many others that many of us have known for all our lives in politics ring bells, go door to door, go and talk to seniors, talk to 51 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. people and then install smoke detectors on various levels in homes and those that last a long time, and it's a very, very important community service and it's very important to saving lives. And so I wanted to commend that and certainly look forward to us continuing to do that around the City, to save lives of countless people. You know, as all of us realize, the work that makes a difference in the quality of life isn't always that work that gets publicity. It's the everyday contact, the everyday trying to help people who need it that makes a difference, and I commend you for that. Thank you. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Thank you, Councilwoman.

Thank you, Councilwoman. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Miller.

Thank 52 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. you. Thank you, Madam Chair. Good morning, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Good morning, Councilwoman.

I just have a couple of questions. One, what is the start date or have you started the fire safety kind of block captain program? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes. It has started already. We actively take in applications and sort those out to the correct fire safety and education district captain. We currently have about 375 active participants, and even though it's a small number as related to the numerous blocks and the vast amount of neighborhoods in Philadelphia, we're confident with that. It's been a really positive thing. The citizens enjoy it. They really enjoy just helping folks.

So how does one -- where do you get the applications? I don't think I've seen 53 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. any. COMMISSIONER AYERS: You can get an application at your local fire station. They can go online to www.phila.gov/fire and they can download an application. And also we have DVDs that we've created that we give to the block captains and throughout the community where they can actually see a fire prevention program, what it's about, how to do it and also download the forms directly off of that DVD. So those are some of the ways they can get it, or they can just call us and they can get it.

Okay. It might be nice, too, if we had some. We could probably give them out when we have community meetings. COMMISSIONER AYERS: I'll be sure to give forms to each and every councilmanic district.

I think it's important and it's a good program. My neighbor across the street from me had 54 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. a fire, a pretty bad fire, and it was started in the basement and it was an electrical fire. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes.

And many houses in the City are old, when the wiring, I guess, is just not adequate. I know from my own house I've had to rewire and put in a bigger box and whatnot, because I'm always concerned that -- I think my house was built in 1900 or a little bit before, and certainly the electrical system there then is not what we need today with microwaves, irons and everything that we have that's electrical. So I've always been concerned about the inadequate wiring, and that's why for a few years this has been my goal, to upgrade the electric in my house, and I think that -- I know I think about it all the time, and I think on my block, the block safety rep, whoever ends up being that -- and I'm going to try to recruit one -- should 55 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. talk more to all of us on that block about doing what we need to do to upgrade so we don't have a fire that damages -- I mean, her house was severely damaged and the flames was just shooting out. And it was pretty scary because she also had four small children that were in the home at the time. So I think that's an important program, and I think you have to do something special for neighborhoods where you do have older houses. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes. Absolutely. One of the things that we have done over the past several years is to go citywide but concentrate in the areas where we've had the most fires, the most injuries and the most deaths. We've had an opportunity to partner with many corporations. Rayacross (ph) is one of our big partners. We go out with them a lot. But also in our Freedom from Fire campaign, which we will be launching not too long, sometime within the next month 56 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. we will be kicking that off, we will be seeing more partnerships come together where people will be actually adopting blocks and taking some time to do community work in those areas, volunteer work in those areas, and also donating funds for ten-year smoke alarms. So those are the things that count. Knocking on the doors are the things that people need, that type of intervention. I'm happy that we've been able to cut down the fires, the loss, the tragedies, the burns, all of those things. This time last year we had 16 fire deaths. This year we have only 17 seven fire deaths. 18 (Bell rung.) 19 COMMISSIONER AYERS: And that's 20 just from going out and making sure that 21 folks understand that you have to keep 22 yourself safe and here's the opportunity. I talk to my men and women, firefighters and paramedics, all the time about we can't put a roll of wire or a 57 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. Romex or Nomex on our shoulder and go in and rewire the house, but we can help them in case something breaks down in their environment. We put the smoke alarms up. We give the literature out. We let them understand you can escape a fire. We give them the Home Fire Safety Checklist. When we go out, that's one of our main tools. We let them have that. They can self-assess themselves. They understand what the environment is, if it's not good, if the heater is old, if the electric wiring is bad, if you have leaky roofs, things like that. That's what's out there in a lot of the communities, and we focus on those areas so that we can stop people from dying two, three, four, five in a fire. And people are starting to get it, that they want to protect themselves, and that's where we're going to stay, right on the front line there.

Good. Excuse me just a second. 58 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. I think something is wrong with the clock because my bell went off much quicker. I only asked one question.

The answers are too long. COMMISSIONER AYERS: I'll shorten those answers up. I'm sorry.

The Chair recognizes Councilman Clarke. You have questions, Clarke?

Councilman Rizzo has graciously offered his time to the Councilwoman, although I'm up next, but I'll defer to you, Councilwoman.

Thank you. Just two quick short questions. There was a fire in Yorktown where the elderly couple couldn't get out and no 21 one could get in. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes.

Because of some kind of lock. And I think I heard you say that the lock was illegal 59 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. or people should not have that type of lock. COMMISSIONER AYERS: That's correct.

What was that lock? COMMISSIONER AYERS: It was a dead bolt lock that was on the front door as well as their security door, their screen door. It was wrought iron. It had a double lock. What's legal in our code is to have a non-removable key when it's in the locked position. When you lock it, you can't take the key out. Or what's acceptable, if you have the knob turn on that dead bolt.

So that's the dead bolt where you put the key in and you can't turn it -- or you can't take it out? COMMISSIONER AYERS: That's correct.

That's 60 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. why they couldn't get out and no one could get in? COMMISSIONER AYERS: That's why.

That's an old lock. Are storm doors or security doors coming with those types of locks now? COMMISSIONER AYERS: You can order that type of lock. You can order that type of lock. However, the stores still sell the other ones, the dead bolt. We're working on talking with -- we did a lot of leaflets in the communities after that. We got a lot of calls about it. We informed them of what was legal, what was not legal. I got a letter from a lady who said she went back to -- I'm not going to say which store, but one of the big home improvement stores and that she actually got them to come and redo her door. She had purchased that, it wasn't too long ago, and they actually took care of that. 61 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. I don't think you're going to get a lot of that, but she was able to get that taken care of.

I don't think so either, and I think that lock was an issue that -- I certainly never had heard of it until I was watching the news and heard you comment on the type of lock that house had. And I think that's something that people really need to know about. So I'm glad to hear that you did flyers. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Well, we're going to do more. We'll make sure that we get more out there.

All right. I got an e-mail last week regarding the Glade Plug-in air freshener with like the lamp that you plug in. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes.

And the e-mail actually said that this is -- the plug-in or the lamp part, plastic lamp part, gets very hot and causes fire. And 62 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. whoever sent the e-mail around said that there was someone who lost their home because of that Glade. So do you know anything about that? I was just trying to figure out whether it was really legit. COMMISSIONER AYERS: We investigate those types of calls or letters maybe twice a year. We'll have to respond to let them know what our research shows. We don't have any documented -- not for this Glade at least now -- documented fires in our area for anything like that.

Okay. COMMISSIONER AYERS: And the Fire Marshal has checked it out two or three times. We'll get a letter like that. At one point Glade put out on their website that it was a hoax and that people were just saying that this caused the fire. We don't have any indication that that's the case. 63 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc.

All right. Good. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Krajewski.

Thank you. Good morning, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Good morning, Councilwoman.

Thank you for your cooperation in working with the emergency, but my problem is how come it's taking so long to hire these? Are we advertising enough? Are we campaigning, or what? What are we doing to hire these people? COMMISSIONER AYERS: The hiring of paramedics is an issue whether you have an open hiring outside the City or in the City. It's an issue across this entire country because of the numbers of paramedics that are going into school. 64 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. People are now starting to look at other careers other than paramedic. That remains a problem across the country. Many of the cities sort of grow their own paramedics, do things like that. But for us, what it has been is the numbers of paramedics that were available in schools. I believe this is probably the first time that I've seen as many Philadelphians, paramedics, in schools in the area in a very, very long time, and hopefully we'll be able to take advantage of that over the next few quarters.

Well, do we have enough to maintain what we have now? I mean, what happens in between that? COMMISSIONER AYERS: In our current configuration, the way that we were before the Mayor and Council gave us the money, we were 31 paramedics short and we thought that we would be able to fill that gap by the end of the summer, 65 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. the end of this summer. Now with 80 additional paramedics, we don't believe we're going to be able to do it before, say, next summer. But they're in school and they're in the process of coming into hopefully the Philadelphia Fire Department system.

They're in training now? COMMISSIONER AYERS: They're in training right now. We have maybe 80 -- well, we just had several schools that let out. There was 83 at the beginning of this calendar year and we have since hired -- we just put seven on the street and we just got a list of 32. So as they come out of schools, we're starting the process to hire them.

And you think that that's enough? COMMISSIONER AYERS: No. I think that this process that we're going through is going to give us enough and I don't see an emergency to say -- because 66 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. we put all of the units, all of the medic units that we've been given, they are out on the street. They're actually out on the street. Are they staffed by all paramedics? No, they're not. They are firefighters, emergency medical technicians, who are fully capable to go out and deliver that service, especially based on the, if you will, the market that we see coming in or the emergency calls that are coming in for our system. Eighty percent of those calls can be and are very well handled by emergency medical technicians, and many of those that come in are heart attacks, vehicle accidents, all of those types of things. They're handled by emergency medical technicians. And if it's a real bad accident, of course, the paramedics come in as well. So we're out there. We are getting the job done. We are getting the job done. We want to make sure that based on the money that the Mayor gave us 67 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. and that you gave us, we're going to fill those positions.

You feel that that's enough money, the 3.8 million? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Well, one of the things that we're looking at is, we're going to see what this does to the system. We're looking at a system and we have to judge that against something. Right now we just got them. February 12th, 18th and 25th the system was implemented. So we don't have data to actually look at. Our first view of the data will happen just after April 1st where we can view March of last year and compare it to March this year. That will be the first full set of data that we have where we can examine it and say what was the real effect of this implementation.

So you feel that that money is helpful. Is more money needed, though? 68 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. COMMISSIONER AYERS: We will tell you --

You always need more money, but... COMMISSIONER AYERS: I'm telling you that the more, the better.

But when it comes to an emergency, money is not the question. We got to make sure. (Bell rung.) COMMISSIONER AYERS: I agree.

And you feel comfortable with that? COMMISSIONER AYERS: I feel comfortable with having received this money and that I know that it has had an impact on the system. How much impact, how much more would be needed, we'll report that out immediately to the Mayor and to you.

Thank you, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Thank you, Councilwoman. 69 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc.

The Chair recognizes Councilman Clarke.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Good morning, gentlemen. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Good morning, sir.

Commissioner, last year during budget testimony we had a conversation about smoke detectors and the possibility of mandating smoke detectors in residences, and there were some practical reasons why we probably couldn't mandate it, and a lot centered around the ability to enforce that. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes, sir.

Let me ask you some specific questions about it. To what level, what types of residents are required, either new construction or rehabilitation of a unit, that are required to have hard-wired smoke detection systems as opposed to simply 70 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. the freestanding battery power? COMMISSIONER AYERS: In the code -- well, new construction, all the new construction that's going in, you see the hard-wired --

Has to have hard wire regardless of the size of the building? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes. All of the major renovations you usually see, even the freestanding buildings that come in, you even see the hard wire coming in.

Is that a requirement? COMMISSIONER AYERS: It's a requirement for the new construction. It's not a requirement for just -- if I renovate a one-story house, I don't have to put hard-wired smoke alarms in. I can still put --

Would you suggest that -- and I don't want to put you on the spot, but I'm going to put you on the spot. Would you suggest, 71 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. particularly given the substantial renovations throughout the City with some of the older structures and a lot of the older parts of the City that essentially is a new construction unit -- the only thing we're keeping, the shell -- that we require that they be hard wired? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Sir, if you allow me to do a review of the data, I'll bring that back, and we'll actually sit down and tell you what we suggest based on that. And you're talking about renovations of individual houses and groups of houses around the City?

Yeah. I know that, unfortunately, in spite of the fact -- and I want to congratulate you and commend you on the great work that you've been doing aggressively going out in a proactive way getting smoke detectors placed in homes, but the reality is that there are instances where people either don't have the smoke detectors or either had the smoke 72 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. detectors and don't put batteries in them. COMMISSIONER AYERS: That's right.

And, unfortunately, we've seen instances where you've gone in, smoke detector, no 9 batteries or the battery had died. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes, sir.

If we had hard-wired systems, we could have possibly saved lives as a result of that. And my next question was going to be -- and you may not be able to answer this specifically -- the cost associated with hard wire versus -- COMMISSIONER AYERS: Versus batteries.

-- freestanding. Correct. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Okay. I will take a look at that, all of those issues that you addressed or that you raised, and make sure that we get a 73 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. report for you.

Thank you. Thank you, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Thank you.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you very much. The Chair recognizes Councilman Rizzo.

Thank you. Thank you. Commissioner, to add to Councilman Clarke's comments about hard wire, doesn't the new construction code require even residential construction to be sprinklered? COMMISSIONER AYERS: No. The new code does not require sprinklers.

Well, I was told that the new code -- there's construction down in South Philadelphia near the stadium, that all of that project there was required by code to be 74 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. sprinklered. COMMISSIONER AYERS: It depends on the type. If you're talking about -- one of the things that I would like to see is to get sprinklering where people are dying. People are dying in one- and two-family homes, in one- and two-family homes. That's where we get 98 percent or maybe 99 percent of our deaths. The resprinklering of one- and two-family dwellings is not a code requirement. It is one of the things that we're trying to work in and maybe do some cooperative project with one of the agencies or one of the builders. But it's not a requirement.

You would agree -- and you don't have to be a firefighter to figure it out -- that having a sprinkler system -- and I want to go back so I understand your answer. Single-family residence, new construction, does require a sprinkler by code? 75 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Single-family new construction does not require a sprinkler. That's one of the things that the National Fire Protection Association, the International Association of Fire Chiefs, the Metropolitan Fire Chiefs, it's one of the things that we're trying to do, to move that forward, to get that requirement in the codes around the country.

I'm a little bit confused by your answer, because I just dealt with a builder about the fact that they were required, L&I required them, to sprinkler these new -- maybe because they are townhouses, but they are single family. They were required. So I'm going to follow up. I'm not questioning your answer, but I'm confused why this particular development was required to have sprinklers installed. And my colleague just asked, in new construction, from the knowledge that I have, that adding sprinklers to 76 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. new construction is relatively inexpensive. Will you agree that it is one of the best deterrents or can put a fire out like that in some cases? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Absolutely, and it's one of the things that I am advocating for, sprinklers in one- and two-family dwellings. When you have complexes of townhouses, that's a different thing. I understand what you're saying. Sprinklers are required in a situation where you have more dwelling units in a cluster like that.

If you have like a building that has five condos in it, the new code, I believe, does require sprinklers for those. So at least that's what I was led to believe. And is my assumption correct it's relatively inexpensive, plus the insurance companies give you a significant discount for new construction that does have fire suppression? COMMISSIONER AYERS: I know 77 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. that there are discounts for those types of systems when they're installed. One of the things that, again, we may be missing, whether it's a complex of single-family units versus a single-family home, dwelling, or whether you have a townhouse that's sitting there with two family units in it. And that's what the issue is. Those units by code do not have to have sprinklers.

Okay. Well, there's some confusion, because the builder was complaining that L&I required the next phase of their project -- half of the phase has no sprinklers, the new phase it was required. A building, eight apartments in one building, they were required by L&I to put sprinklers in them, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yeah. Eight apartments, yes.

But they're single-family residences. They're condos. 78 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. COMMISSIONER AYERS: I understand. And that's where we're having the confusion. They're apartments. (Bell rung.)

Thank you, Commissioner. I'll come back at you on the next round.

Councilman Kelly.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Commissioner, I assume that you've seen firefighters' contract proposals, and a lot of those proposals had to do with safety procedures or safety protection. What I'm concerned about -- in fact, some of them were like the station bell muting systems, the conditions of the fire apparatus, the trucks and whatnot, and, in fact, even in 2001, the exhaust systems, that had to go before an arbitration panel. All of these issues seems it's 79 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. going to arbitration. I would like to think that the new Administration -- and you, I know, are very concerned about it -- that we don't have to go to arbitration when it's a safety issue, because to me either a condition is safe or it's unsafe. If it's unsafe, it should be remedied immediately for the protection of everyone, especially our firefighters. That to me shouldn't be arbitrated at all. It's either a simple request that should be acted on immediately. I don't know what your sentiments in that regard is. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Well, one of the things that I'll be looking at is, of course, I'll have to look at with legal and with the Labor Department at those things that are being asked, and in that process, even to arbitration, we want to get the things that we can get done done, of course.

Let me ask 80 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. you about the fire trucks themselves. Do you have a procedure now that automatically updates or replaces old apparatus, old trucks? Do you have a certain system that you use? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes, we have a system. We actually have a chart that shows the age of the vehicles, which vehicles, the vehicles that we request be replaced, and we submit that, and the monies that we have that come forward, we actually change those out as per our schedule.

And if a fire apparatus were to be in an accident or whatnot and it was deemed by Fleet Management or whatever that it should be replaced, regardless of the time frame that you have, would it be replaced? COMMISSIONER AYERS: That apparatus that had an accident would be replaced. Would it be replaced right away and that company get a brand new apparatus in some, I guess, expedited 81 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. fashion? It takes about eight months to make a fire truck. So it goes into that whole process. So it's not something that we can just replace right away. What happens is, that company does not go out of service. That company goes back into service with a reserve or back-up apparatus until such time we can get it replaced. (Witness approached witness table.)

I have heard that some of our firefighters have to purchase their own flashlights and rescue rope and a lot of other incidental things that they require to do their job. I just want to know why the Department doesn't provide that equipment, why do firefighters have to go out and purchase it on their own.

Councilmember Kelly, Madam Chair, if I could on the last question with respect to the replacement of vehicles, what I would 82 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. like to do, Councilmember, is come back. There is a schedule that Fleet has for the replacement of all of the major equipment, both ladders and trucks. I believe we have a schedule to replace three or four in the coming cycle. But to the question you asked specifically on sort of a catastrophic failure because of an accident or something, if we could get Fleet to come back and give you an answer to that so that you have that in front of you.

Okay. I would appreciate that.

Thank you.

Commissioner, getting back to the personal rescue rope and webbing and flashlights and all this other equipment, is it your knowledge that firefighters sometimes have to go out and purchase this on their own? Or why wouldn't this be provided by the Department? COMMISSIONER AYERS: We have an 83 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. equipment list of what we supply to our firefighters. Some of the things that a firefighter may purchase above and beyond -- (Bell rung.)

Well, the equipment list, who makes up the list? COMMISSIONER AYERS: The equipment list is made up by the safety office and the equipment officer.

Okay. And you just go by that list completely? Could you add certain items on that list at any time during the year? COMMISSIONER AYERS: We could add some items on. Most of the times that we add an item on is because of a national study and this is maybe some equipment that needs to be added, or technological advance, much like our drag rope that we added to our equipment, which is our bunker gear, things like that. When we see things like that come -- as a matter of fact, we are way 84 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. ahead of the curve on most of those items that are safety items.

And you do provide most of those items? COMMISSIONER AYERS: One of the things that happens with that process is that there is a committee where things are worked out, vetted out, and we will supply the items that's worked out in the committee. The things that's being requested, as you're talking about, they are legal and they are things that go to the labor table and they'll be arbitrated.

And this is arbitration again? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Some of the -- it's because that's the process.

I would like to think that the Administration is going to take a different look at this, this new Administration. I think that there's a lot of -- when it comes to safety, I don't think it should be arbitrated at 85 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. all. It's either safe or unsafe, and if it's unsafe, then something has to be done and has to be done immediately. And I know that I think I can count on you and your department to do the right thing, to providing the best equipment to your firefighters, because God knows we need it. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Well, we look forward to moving through this process so that we can get those things taken care of.

Thank you. Thank you, Commissioner. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Could I just follow up on that question, because I'm not clear what the answer is. The equipment that Councilman Rizzo was talking about, are there mandatory items that the Fire Department has to provide to the firemen, and that you could do that without arbitration? Are you saying that there are other items that are 86 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. requested that you have to arbitrate? COMMISSIONER AYERS: That is what I'm saying.

Why is that? I mean, who determines -- is there sort of like a manual that says these are the things that are required or needed by the firemen to do his or her job and that we will provide those things? COMMISSIONER AYERS: And we do --

And if you get enough requests for other items that are not in the manual, couldn't you just look at trying to provide them? If everybody wants widget one and we're not providing widget one, then as the Fire Commissioner said, well, we need to provide widget one and not have to go to arbitration on that? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes. There are things like that that we will provide, but it is vetted through a safety committee. Some things that are 87 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. requested we work through the safety committee, through the safety officer, and we test. We test a lot of things. And some of the things that are asked for are just that, We'd like to have this, and we work that through. And sometimes management and the safety office don't agree with everything that's asked for, but there are many times that the firefighters have brought forth equipment that we agreed with and that we implemented. Absolutely.

But every other request has to be arbitrated? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Everything that comes forward, everything that comes forward is not something that we necessarily supply.

Would you like to supply them? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Some, yes, and we will. But, again, a lot of that comes up through arbitration. It comes up as requests, and it gets worked 88 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. through Law and it gets worked through Labor.

All right. Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Clarke.

Point of information.

Beg your pardon?

Point of information.

Short point of information.

Commissioner, refresh my memory. Going back to what the Chair just asked you, I believe the union approached you about providing radios for all firefighters. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes.

Did you have to arbitrate that? COMMISSIONER AYERS: It got talked about, but we supplied them. 89 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc.

Did you arbitrate each firefighter and paramedic getting their own radio? COMMISSIONER AYERS: As far as how that whole process happened, I'll get back to you and give you an answer on that.

Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. COMMISSIONER AYERS: We did have to -- it was an award for the paramedics, I believe.

I'll wait for your formal response to the Chair. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Okay.

Thank you, Madam Chair. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Thank you.

You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilman Clarke.

Thank you, Madam Chair. 90 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. Commissioner, I just want to follow up to an earlier discussion about the sprinkler systems. Could you have your department check the costs associated with the various systems? Because I understand that whatever we talk about doing here traditionally costs money, and I know that the Building Industry Association is always complaining about the various codes that we put in place to increase the cost of development, and I'm assuming that particularly given the strong recommendation that sprinkler systems be a part of a process relating to fire safety, there's a strong likelihood that somebody in this room is going to propose that we do that in new construction, and it would be good if you all can determine the types of systems and the costs associated with that. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Well, we actually have done that. Some of the data I would have to bring into you. 91 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. We're looking at possibly doing some projects, as I said, with some of the builders and maybe even the City in the very near future.

That would be very helpful. COMMISSIONER AYERS: For sprinklers in single- and two-family homes.

Okay. Thank you. Thanks, Commissioner. Thanks, Madam Chair.

You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilman Rizzo.

Thank you. Commissioner, I want to go back to -- first of all, congratulations on the new fireboat. What a great asset to the riverfront. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes. Thank you.

What's 92 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. happening with the old fireboat? COMMISSIONER AYERS: One of the things that we're looking at is the possibility to have the old fireboat that's going to be formally decommissioned set in a fashion, a museum, if you will, where we can maybe get it at the Seaport Museum where visitors and our citizens can go and look at that fireboat and it be a part of not just a tourist attraction but part of our history.

Good. That's good to hear. Going back to the code, the construction code, it's a given that in certain places that firefighters could be called to, that the fire radios do not work; is that correct? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes.

Would you support in the construction code or even retrofitting some of the new construction, like the high rises, the 93 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. Comcast tower, places like that where you would have to go below ground to potentially fight a fire, that I understand there's the technology available that could make those radios work underground that a property owner would be required to maintain and whether it would be a Fire Department inspection process. But in some cities, they have installed repeaters in some areas where radios are known not to work. Would you be supportive of considering putting into the construction code for the property owner, the owner of the building, to put technology in the building that would allow your radios to work? COMMISSIONER AYERS: I would be supportive of anything that would enhance our communications in a situation where they have been hampered. Absolutely.

Let's get the right people together, because I understand that there are some places 94 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. where those systems have been installed. And it's good for you to know that very soon -- I just read something online -- that AT&T Wireless is about to push the switch to make wireless service available in the whole Frankford-Market Elevated system, from one end to the other underground. So folks needing communication, especially during an emergency, that their cell phones will work. So that's similar technology that's available for 800 megahertz radio system. So I'd like to get together with you eventually to see what we can do with L&I to make that equipment required by code so your firefighters are more so protected in areas where we know radios don't work. COMMISSIONER AYERS: I look forward to it.

Thank you, Commissioner. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. 95 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc.

Thank you, Councilman. Councilman Kenney.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Let me preface my, I guess, question and comment with the following: I respect you entirely. I think you've been a great career firefighter. You did a great job since you've been there and before you were Commissioner. And I'm overall cooperative and try to be helpful to the Administration. I think there's great opportunities for us, Council and Mayor Nutter, to work together, and I think there's a whole new atmosphere and environment that's permeated the government and I'm very happy for that. I do, though, have to take issue and I don't understand the philosophy of using arbitration to deal with safety issues. And I know you're in a difficult situation, because you're heading the department and your need to support the 96 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. Administration in all their situations when you can. And I know the Administration hasn't been here that long, so this goes back to past Administrations and practices relative to arbitration. I find it really difficult to accept that when we have an issue relative to individual firefighter safety, whether it's hearing protection or some type of fire-retardant protection, whatever it is that can make our people, your people, our firefighters safe, to utilize I assume it's some legal position that's taken by the people who are negotiating the contract on behalf of the City, that this is something that's appropriate, and I really don't think it is. I think we had this discussion before in previous hearings and I requested that we talk to the lawyers involved who are representing the City in regards to the negotiations on the 97 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. contract, to have them tell us why that's an appropriate legal position to be taking. I don't want to interfere in any way in wages or in benefits or in work rules. I think that's something that needs to be worked out between the Administration and Local 22, and I'm willing to back up and let that happen, and sometimes as a result of that, arbitration takes place, but if I have to make a decision on a helmet, a shield, ear protection, anything within reason -- I mean, I'm not talking about some major mega cost -- arbitration to me is an obnoxious way of dealing with it. It's almost like we know it's on behalf of your safety -- not you. I'm just talking to you. I'm talking through you, not at you. COMMISSIONER AYERS: I understand, Councilman.

We know it's an issue that will keep people safe, 98 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. that will protect their hearing, it will protect them, whatever other issue is, and I'm going to allow a law firm to make a decision on whether an arbitrator should make that decision and not the Commissioner or anyone else? I find it really difficult to accept. COMMISSIONER AYERS: I think one of the things that I'm hoping that we have an opportunity to do is to allow this Administration to get through this whole round of process with arbitration and contracts and give them an opportunity to show what needs to happen and what they're doing. We support the safety of our members, our men and women that's out there. So hopefully this process as we move through this, we'll have an opportunity.

I think it's very important to understand -- I think you do -- that I never question your dedication to your people, ever, and I recognize that this is a practice from 99 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. past Administrations, but it seems to me that one of the things about being a firefighter and a police officer under -- is it Act 111? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes.

With this binding arbitration, it seems like it's only binding arbitration when the City wins or the management wins, and that everything else that's either gotten or gained gets challenged in a legal setting. I mean, they can't strike. I don't want them striking. I don't think they want to strike. So they don't have protections that other workers have in job actions and strikes. And in past Administrations, anything they've gained gets challenged and drug out for years. And to me, I am confident that this Administration is not that way, that Mayor Nutter is a fair person, that people that work for him on the revenue side and the budget side are decent, fair people -- 100 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes.

-- who want to protect our firefighters, but to make a decision based on protecting someone's hearing or their body based on an arbitrator's ruling because a law firm decided that that's a good strategy to pursue, to me really is sad. And I would urge you to continue to push as you can and hope and urge the Administration in regards to personal safety issues and personal safety equipment to be fair with our people and not drag this through the courts. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Thank you, sir.

Thank you.

Are there any more questions for the Fire Commissioner? (No response.)

There being none, we thank you for coming, Commissioner, and thank you for your 101 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. testimony and your time. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Thank you very much.

Okay. Thank you. We will now recess this hearing until 1:15. Thank you. (Recess.)

Good afternoon. Council is now in session. MR. McPHERSON: The next department is the Philadelphia Prisons. (Witness approached witness table.)

Good afternoon. Would you please, Commissioner, state your name for the record and begin your testimony. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Thank you, Councilwoman. My name is Lou Giorla. I'm Prisons Commissioner. With me today are my Administrative Deputy Commissioner Robert Tomaszewski and several members of my administrative -- 102 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc.

Do you want him to come to the table with you? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: I have someone who is preparing our slide demonstration. As I answer individual questions, I was planning to call them up. There's several people seated behind me.

Are you prepared now to make your testimony or do you want to wait until your slide presentation comes in? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Oh, no. 15 I'm prepared.

Okay. Thank you. You may proceed. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Thank you. As I stated, I have several members of my administrative staff here and we're prepared to testify on behalf of our 2009 fiscal year budget. The mission of the Philadelphia Prison System is to provide a secure 103 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. correctional environment that adequately detains persons accused or convicted of illegal acts; to provide programs, services and supervision in a safe, lawful, clean, humane environment; and to prepare incarcerated persons for reentry into society. 26 percent increase from 2008. 88 increase from the 2008 fiscal year budget. The supplies and equipment, Classes 300 and 400, are estimated at $4,520,744, and that is no 19 change from the Fiscal '08 budget. 98 percent reduction from the previous year, for a total of $230,001,319. 25 percent budget increase from 2008. Our 2009 budget has been 104 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. increased by more than five percent overall and includes increases for both wages and services. The supply and equipment appropriations are unchanged. While contributions have been somewhat reduced -- and I'd like to explain that that was because of a miscalculation in the budget during the year 2008. So that number is actually the same that was awarded. We were in front of Council a couple weeks ago to testify for a class transfer, class funds transfer, to rectify that situation. So although it indicates a reduction in figure, it's not an actual reduction in the commitment. Initiatives such as an increase in work release, room and board fees, and processing fees for other various and other elective services will help defray our operating costs. Other initiatives to reduce inmate transportation and medical costs are being considered and developed. Our Mayor's charge of making the City government smarter, better and 105 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. faster is becoming a mind-set that will support our practice. Within the six core service areas for results outlined by the City Administration, our role is primarily in enhancing public safety. To do so, our operations are twofold. First, by providing secure detention for pretrial and sentenced persons deemed by our courts to be dangerous or in need of constant supervision; and, second, by offering programs and services so that offenders can emerge from custody as productive citizens. We have established three customer service standards, which will allow the Prisons to measure progress, help determine our needs, and contribute to the community. We will ensure that all inmates admitted to our custody are processed, medically screened and provided a bed within hours. We will 24 provide a community standard of healthcare and mental treatment services 106 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. for those under our supervision. We will offer to and endeavor to have each and every sentenced inmate participate in a vocational, training, educational and/or treatment program during confinement. As part of the justice system cycle, the Prisons understands our obligation to the citizens of Philadelphia. Likewise, we know that by contributing to improved public safety, our communities and neighborhoods will grow and thrive. This improving environment of our City will make it a residential as well as a tourist attraction. It may strike some people rather odd to think that our prisons and jails can have an impact on our commercial and environmental development. However, our operations will only get better as the City becomes the safest city in the country. Safer streets will result in a decreased jail population that does not stress the criminal justice 107 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. system, our employees or the public coffers. In turn, we will use the principles and tools at our disposal, PhillyStat as an example, to chart our progress, prove our success and demonstrate to you and all Philadelphians that their trust is being upheld.

I'd like to thank you for this opportunity to testify today and I would be happy to answer any questions at this time.

Thank you very much. In 2006, as Chair of the Public Health and Human Services Committee I held hearings in City Council regarding inmate overcrowding and security problems in our prisons. Also in 2006, David Rudovsky filed a federal lawsuit against the City alleging that the City is violating the United States Constitution for placing inmates in overcrowded prison facilities and subjecting inmates to inhumane conditions, and this lawsuit 108 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. follows Mr. Rudovsky's 1971 federal lawsuit, which was settled in 2000 and based on similar pleadings. What is the current status of prison overcrowding and this litigation? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Today our population stands at 9,138 persons incarcerated in the Philadelphia Prisons. Of those, 8,691 are actually incarcerated or in custody in our compound on State Road. That represents a 35 percent -- that represents an overcapacity rate of 35 percent, and that's over the design capacity of our facilities. Now, that doesn't mean that we have not attempted to address the matter. We've converted areas that were formerly used as activity areas, in some cases installed plumbing or equipped those so that we can use them as cell space. Still, operating at that level does stress our support services, our inmate services, our supply chain, our maintenance services, et cetera. And the 109 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. conditions you described that resulted in the Bower suit, which is the suit that Mr. Rudovsky filed in 2006, were the result of significant delays in our intake process. Inmates were spending -- at the time, we did not have a processing standard for the intake of male inmates. We tried our best to process them in an efficient manner, but it caused -- the resulting wave of admissions we had during 2006 created a backlog in processing. Some inmates spent sometimes over two days in our intake area, which is not housing. It's actually a processing area where inmates are held in holding cells. Some inmates spent upwards of 18 days in our actual intake housing, when our goal was to move them out of there in three days. As a result and partially prior to the Bower suit and subsequent to the filing of the Bower suit, we instituted some measures to accelerate the processing and relieve that overcrowding. 110 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. We designated some additional housing areas. In our intake housing we added portable beds, plastic beds, the shells that allow us to place three inmates per cell in that area, but allow to get them in the beds. We also changed our processing to move the medical portion earlier in the process so that inmates are seen by the medical staff, screened for security, their search is done, their property is taken, and now we're averaging under ten hours in processing. And that means when the inmate comes to the door and their property is taken, they are screened medically, they are searched, their particular case information is entered in the computer, they're given their institutional issue of clothing and toiletries, and they're moved into a bed in that amount of time. It's substantially shorter. We provide weekly reports to the court on our progress. We monitor anyone who exceeds those time limits and 111 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. we explain the reasons. We haven't had any significant delays since then on. On the other end, in intake housing, where inmates were spending up to days in that status, we've 7 shortened that time substantially to 8 where it's below four days now, and what 9 that does, it allows the inmates to 10 access institutional services in a much 11 more timely manner and meet the other 12 guidelines that we have for 13 classification, assigning inmate jobs, 14 visits and some other activities in the 15 facility. 16

But at the 17 end of the day, you don't have the 18 capacity you need for the number of inmates you have? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: No. We still exceed our design capacity.

But you are saying that every inmate does have a bed now? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Yes, they 112 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. do.

And you've increased the capacity of a cell from two to three? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: In limited areas. Not across the board. I believe four of our facilities are using this triple bunking or triple celling method. It's only in areas that we think can absorb the activity, larger cell blocks, areas where we're sure that we have sufficient security and we can provide sufficient services such as meals and access to social services.

In your testimony you state initiatives such as increase in work release, room and board fees, and processing fees for various other elective services will help defray your operating costs. Could you explain that further? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Yes. In our Work Release Program, only inmates who are currently employed are required 113 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. to pay room and board fees to defray the cost. The current rate that we charge them is percent of their gross salary, 5 and that, I believe, is capped at $200. 6 It can't exceed $200. $200 per week. 7 I'm sorry. We are proposing to raise 8 that to 25 percent of the gross salary to 9 increase a larger amount of the expenses. 10 I can have the answer for you 11 in a minute in how much revenue that 12 generates in a year. Excuse me. 13

Is this 14 normal, to assess the fees for inmates in 15 other prison systems? 16 COMMISSIONER GIORLA: In most jurisdictions, I'm not sure if all, but most jurisdictions charge room and board or some type of fee for work release inmates as a condition of their placement. Some of the other fees that we're recommending, such as a processing fee for inmate checks, something we call a D form processing, a disbursement form process, each inmate has a money account, 114 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. whether they carry a balance or not, and when they want to disburse those funds to family to pay bills, court costs, make bail, et cetera, they fill out a form requesting to disburse those funds. Our business office -- our Inmate Accounts Office processes the form and generates a check to whatever party the inmate designates. That's at no charge at this point. Excuse me. (Witness approached witness table.) COMMISSIONER GIORLA: And right now we're talking about 9,000 D forms a year. We have --

Nine thousand what? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Nine thousand checks that are generated by those D forms a year. We have Inmate Accounts personnel. We have four Inmate Account personnel that are assigned to this task 115 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. and a supervisor. They do process other inmate financial transactions, but this represents a large part of their work, and it will allow us to defray some of those costs.

How long does the Work Release inmate stay in the system? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: That's dependent on the actual sentence. That could be anywhere from 30 days to five years. We have a number of inmates who have been stipulated by the Common Pleas judges to serve state sentences in the county. The majority of them are in our Work Release Program.

The Chair recognizes Councilman Goode.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Good afternoon, Commissioner. Congratulations. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Good afternoon, Mr. Goode. Thank you. 116 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc.

In your testimony you say, "We will offer to and endeavor to have each and every sentenced inmate participate in a vocational, training, educational and/or treatment program during confinement." My first question is, can you mandate that legally or not? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: By law, sentenced inmates are required to work in our system. We also receive -- it's quite common for the judges during sentencing to stipulate certain factors or certain activities that the inmates have to take part in, GED programs, for example.

So the Prison System can mandate that or the judge has to do it? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: The judges can mandate that.

But the Prison System cannot mandate it? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: We can 117 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. require the inmates to work, but we can't mandate program participation. We do have an amount of leverage, if you will, on that because we submit to the courts at parole time or upon request to the judges summaries of inmate activities, and, of course, it's favorable the more programs and participation they engage in, it's favorable to their release.

You have about 9,000 inmates at this time? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Approximately, sir, yes.

What percentage are enrolled in programs? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Right now about 4,000. Let me clarify that. Of those 4,000, they're involved in both institutional programming, which would include drug and alcohol counseling, other therapeutic programs, GED, other schools, vocational training, and it also includes institutional jobs, which don't have a training component. 118 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc.

So how many of the 9,000 are enrolled in some program? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: About 4,000.

So you do have GED programs. Can someone actually receive a GED within the Prison System? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Yes. Actually, we awarded 250 GED certificates last year, Fiscal '08.

I asked the last Prison Commissioner this question in the last budget hearing. He understood the question, but didn't provide me with the information. I am interested in tracking on a yearly basis of the census how many inmates have GEDs or high school diplomas. I don't know how long it will take to get that information, but I'm interested in knowing of the 9,000 how many have GEDs and high school diplomas, and next year I'll be asking the questions in terms of the census that's 119 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. in there how many have GEDs and high school diplomas. What the last Prison Commissioner gave me was a listing of the people participating in programs, but I actually specifically want that piece of data, if you can provide it. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: I don't have that data today, but I'm sure we can provide it.

That's fine. You can just forward it to the Chair. That would be great. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Okay.

How much of your budget is dedicated towards what you would consider reentry? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: At the current time, I believe we have $3 million dedicated to reentry services.

The last Prison Commissioner released a report in November 9th of last year and addressed the PREP legislation and wrote, "This legislation sponsored by Councilman 120 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. Wilson Goode, Jr. should be supported and pursued as an incentive to encourage employers to hire ex-offenders. However, the details of what it requires in the Philadelphia Prison System have to be discussed with the Councilman after we are able to brief him on the way the Prison operates. As the ordinance is now drafted, it could not be practically implemented as we believe the Councilman intended." Now, the first mistake he made was, I didn't draft the ordinance. The ordinance was conceived and actually drafted by our now Mayor Michael Nutter, but the question is, I don't know if you were aware of the comments in here, but is the PREP program being implemented? Are there problems with implementing the PREP program within the Prison System, and what exactly is your current connection to the PREP program? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: I'm aware of the report you're referring to. In 121 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. regards to the PREP program, we've already begun our, no pun intended, preparations, if you will, for implementation. It requires me to draft an agreement that an inmate will sign prior to release to take part in and I believe pay certain fees to take part in, once they're employed, pay certain fees to the City as a result of the services rendered to them. I've generated that letter. It's being reviewed for final release. We've also discussed -- the legislation also requires us to make inmates aware of reentry programs available to them, the PREP in particular and some other opportunities, once they're admitted to the system and not wait until they reach a certain point prior to release. I believe it requires us to inform inmates within six months of their release of these opportunities. What we're planning to do is to actually, since we get a number of inmates 122 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. sentenced that have less than six months, we plan to make that available to them shortly after admission. So this way, we won't miss anyone. We don't want anyone to fall between the cracks.

The legislation also requires an assessment of each inmate. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: We're conducting that now, to a degree. Our social workers conduct an assessment within three days of when an inmate is admitted. That includes a service plan once it's been determined educational level, ability, physical condition have been determined. We need to expand that to address the PREP legislation. One of our Deputy Commissioners is in the process of developing a questionnaire format, a universal assessment tool that each of our programming supervisors can use to contribute their portion to the assessment. 123 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc.

So you have no problem implementing the program conceived by the Mayor? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Not at this time, no. 7

All right. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you very much. The Chair recognizes Councilman Rizzo.

Thank you. Commissioner, even though we spoke briefly before the hearing, I, for the record, just want to make sure that we keep the concept of the Worker Inmate Program on track, that we can hopefully place some of the inmates that have been processed for work release into the Fairmount Park and also the Zoo and some other places. So I look forward to that, for the record. The other question that I have 124 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. is, could you describe the -- and the reason I ask this question, because I know that in some institutions inmates have to make collect calls, and those collect calls are very, very expensive today. I heard that they can be as much as two, three bucks. Could you describe how an inmate communicates with their family and the process that you use at our facility to have them call home and legal counsel or whatever that they're allowed to call? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Yes, sir. When an inmate is admitted, they're allowed to -- they are required to supply us with five authorized phone numbers that they intend to call during their incarceration. That list can be changed after 90 days. We issue them a pin number so that no one else can make calls on their account. Following that, once that list is processed, they are allowed to make three free phone calls a day for a total 125 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. of ten minutes during the course of each day. They are also allowed to make an unlimited number of 15-minute collect calls as well.

Did we ever ascertain what it costs to make a collect call? My point being, I understand there's a real financial hardship on family members. They don't want to, say, refuse the call, and in most cases, they accept it. And I understand it can be extremely expensive to make a collect call from the jail. Any idea what it costs?

I'm Roseanne Duzinski. I'm the Director of Contract Compliance and Administration for the Prisons and I manage the inmate phone system. We're actually in the process of renegotiating -- or, actually, a contract has just been awarded to G-Tel for the inmate telephone system. Last year the cost for a collect call for 15 126 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. minutes locally was about $3.15 during the day, which is about the same rate that the Airport pays and anybody who calls from a public pay phone. Pay phone charges have become incredibly expensive because of the lack of business in the pay phone area. We have been able to, however, negotiate with G-Tel to reduce those costs. So the projected cost for this year, assuming some changes in calling patterns, would be for a 15-minute call locally during the day would be approximately $2.40 and the evening would be $1.70. That's for local. When you go into what they call, I think, intraLATA, which means kind of suburban, Jersey, whatever, those costs go up into the $3-and-something range. The area we've really tried to reduce the costs in -- and we have not been very successful -- is in the area of very long distance calls, and that's where the real abuse comes in, where the connect fee is about $3 and it's 89 cents 127 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. a minute, which, again, unfortunately, is pretty standard in a lot of the pay phones in Philadelphia and at the Airport.

You would think that in this world of technology and communication that we could maybe ask the communication people to maybe work with you to develop -- to have someone to call from the Northeast to the Northwest and have to make a collect call that costs how much again for minutes? 14

$2.40 during the 15 a day, $1.70 in the evening.

There's got to be a better way, because from what I understand, the inmate doesn't want to hear a family member say after they receive a phone bill of several, in some cases -- a lot of money to refuse a collect call, it can cause strain in the relationship, but the spouse is responsible for the phone bill. Could you possibly consider 128 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. meeting with our communication people to see if there's a way that would satisfy your security? And I really don't understand, if you allow people to make free calls and the City pays cents -- 7 if you make a call within the City of Philadelphia, it's either 7 or cents. 9 I forget. When you dial 9 on a City 10 phone -- 11

Seven cents.

Seven cents. Why can't we develop a system where we charge the inmate for the phone call rather than burdening an estranged possibly family member or whatever with the burden to pay that? I've heard that hundreds of dollars in bills have been assessed of inmates calling their wives and family members. Maybe there's a better way that we could do this to lessen the impact on your budget and make the inmate responsible. I mean, we're reasonable. A 7 cent call is unlimited. They can talk for 15 minutes for 7 cents 129 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. rather than $2 and whatever cents you just mentioned a minute ago. I think that there's got to be a better way to conduct this activity.

If I could just give a little bit more information to you on this. Deputy Commissioner Joe James and Frank Punzo from Communications have worked very hard in this area. (Bell rung.)

One of the issues with the inmate phone system, it's not just a direct call like you make from a telephone system. There's a software package and a lot of hardware that runs the inmate telephone system. Every single call, except for legal calls, that go out from the Philadelphia Prisons are recorded and monitored. So that every week we receive about 50 subpoenas from the courts to produce these voice recordings and these call detail records. The costs for producing these security measures are one of the reasons for the 130 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. high phone costs. We have negotiated this. That's why the prices were able to come down somewhat this year. Certainly we can go back to them, but the investment in terms of equipment is probably in the area of $2 to $3 million by the phone vendor. So what we're actually doing, to some extent, is paying for the security issues and the software associated, and there may be some room for negotiation.

I understand that, but when you make a collect call -- let's assume Verizon is the connector. The person that handles the call, you don't benefit from any of that money, I wouldn't think, on that collect call. That all goes in their pocket.

The City gets 53 percent of every call that's made.

On a collect call from Verizon?

From the Prisons. It goes into the City General 131 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. Fund. Last year $755,000 went into the City's General Fund from the Prisons.

Seven hundred and --

And fifty-five thousand dollars.

That's 50 percent of the activity.

Yes.

Well, I honestly believe that there is a better way. Not being a communication expert, but I would bet that there's got to be a better way. And I understand the security aspects. And I'll stop now, because the bell went off, and I'll come back at you, but I understand that some of that technology permits three-way calling. Like a person calls home and then they can continue to connect people. I understand all that is illegal or improper to do, but if you could -- I'm going to talk to Joe James and Frank Punzo. They're separated now. I think 132 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. Joe is in IT and Punzo is still in Public Property. But I would like to see what we can do to try to bring those costs to rock bottom. Thanks, Madam Chair. I'll come back at you.

The Chair recognizes Councilman Jones.

Thank you, Madam Chairman. How are you today? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Good afternoon.

I need to publicly thank you. In our last encounter in between a question, I had an opportunity to need to know some things about an inmate. I had a distressed mother come into my office about her son. Her son was going through it as an incarcerated individual in your facility. And I want to thank you for finding out about his safety and well-being, getting that information back to me so I could 133 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. communicate that to his mother. It didn't make it better, but it made it at least palatable to know that he was at least safe. So I appreciate that and I wanted to publicly put that on the record. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: You're welcome, sir.

Having said that, here comes my question. Thank you for providing me with some of the contract information that I asked for. Are you prepared now to answer the question of how many providers for training does the Prison System contract with? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: For vocational training?

Yes. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: There are three.

And they are? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Jewish 134 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. Employment Vocational Services. Impact Services doesn't provide training, but they provide some services in regards to reentry. And up until now, the Pennsylvania Prison Society.

Of them, how do you rate their performance? How do you measure their performance? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: We measure their performance through the contracts process, where as they meet the requirements, payment is made and we render -- register our satisfaction on the services.

I guess more specifically, how many inmates go through each of their programs and what is the percentage of successful placement after training? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: I don't have that information with me today, sir.

And of that, which ones based on that placement have reduced recidivism, is my second part to 135 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. that question. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: I don't have that information either, but I can say this: One of the things that we're taking a look at because in order for us to meet some of the orders that the Mayor -- the charge the Mayor has given us is going to require us to measure recidivism, inmate participation and how we can increase inmate participation and reduce recidivism.

Are you familiar with the Jobs Program in Frankford? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Frankford Reentry?

Yes. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Yes, sir.

How do you rate them? And of the three, are they a subcontract to any one of those entities? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Frankford Reentry was grant funded. They weren't contracted to us. They were grant 136 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. funded, but provided services, reentry services, to some of our inmates, and their program included post release housing, some vocational training and a faith-based spiritual support and community support.

Are you familiar with their success rate on recidivism as one category of evaluation? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: No, I'm not, and I held a meeting with some of their representatives earlier this month to ask that information. I haven't received it yet.

Well, I've done a little due diligence. There is an 18 percent recidivism rate among their clientele versus the general population's 78 percent recidivism. And I'm sure you don't have those statistics in front of you, but for the moment, take my word on that. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Yes, sir.

And if in 137 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. fact that is true, if in fact that is true, are you going to replicate that in other areas of the City as a part of your consideration going forward? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Just prior to my being appointed as Acting, I believe the Frankford Reentry, which was in the 19124 zip code, was planning to expand to two additional zip codes.

So I'm interested in what neighborhoods and how many of those neighborhoods are in the 4th Councilmanic District and the 7th Councilmanic District in particular. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: I don't have that information. I'll get that for you.

Okay. I'm very interested in that. A couple other questions. Aramark is your primary food service provider? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Yes, it is. 138 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc.

Do they bill 3 by the inmate or by the meal? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: By the meal.

So if an inmate doesn't like the meal, doesn't eat the meal, we still pay for it? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Yes, we do.

So would there possibly be an incentive that they not create meals that are edible so that they can -- I mean, I don't understand. Why don't we pay by the meal as opposed to by the inmate? I'm just confused. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: For us to logistically determine how many inmates ate the three meals on a given day would be probably as costly as any savings we would realize in the contract.

Fair enough, but they're not incentivized to create something edible because they get paid anyway, just for the record. All right. 139 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. The other thing is, how many minority and female subcontractors do they use and who are they? I'm going to get my questions in before the ringer goes off. Also -- (Bell rung.)

See, I knew it. That's that freshman bell. But one other question since I started it. Are you aware that they are being challenged on their MBE and minority participation by Cook County, Illinois?

He can answer the question the next time.

Yes, ma'am. I got it in actually.

The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Sanchez.

Thank you. Thank you for promoting the 7th Councilmanic District reentry program. About a month ago -- by the 140 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. way, congratulations on your permanent appointment. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Thank you.

I think, right, or you think? About a month ago I spent an afternoon at Graterford, and even though that was a state institution, I walked into an auditorium with 100 men, most of them lifers, committing crimes between the ages of and 19. So some of them 14 will never see the light of day. But 15 what was most astonishing to me, that 80 16 percent of their families lived in my district and that's why I was invited out there. And it just frightened me of what is going on with those families in the district whose father in this particular case is not at home, and just as we talk about our challenges in the community, I was just really astonished. I haven't had an opportunity yet to visit some of the prisons in the 141 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. Philadelphia system since I've been elected, and I will, but I wanted to ask you in terms of the reentry programs, what are some of the plans that you have moving forward? Because I was concerned about are we looking at which ones have been successful and how do we replicate those models. And I'm also interested in what are we doing with the female population, in particular women who are pregnant or have children? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: First, let me address my own plans -- well, I wouldn't say my own plans, but the plans that I believe will be successful for the Prison System and will aid the City. Along with Deputy Mayor Gillison and other members of the criminal justice community in the City, we've begun planning day reporting, so that some of those incarcerated, particularly on technical parole violations, don't have to spend the traditional 30 days or more in our custody. We'd like to reduce that 142 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. to eight days or less, and at the same time, connect them with services that they need, housing, programming, counseling, vocational services, public benefit services in the community. We're exploring that with the Mayor's Office of Reentry Services, who even up till this point, although they've been in existence and served ex-offenders in the general public, they haven't been able to establish a presence in the prisons. We've already removed that obstacle. We are going to make it possible for their staff to come in and conduct presentations and interviews in the prisons. We're going to improve the link between them and our Inmate Services staff. As far as other efforts, there's a substantial amount of our population that is on a mental health caseload. Some are seriously mentally ill and are only incarcerated as the result of the fact that there are no 143 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. community mental health beds for them to be in.

How many would you say? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Our total mental health caseload I believe now is about 1,800 inmates. Now, that's a broad range. That's from the depressed to the seriously mentally ill and violent individuals. We don't have any -- we don't really have any places in the area to send them to, and the eventual result, it becomes a cycle where sometimes they re-offend in custody that causes them to be detained even longer. Although we do have, in my estimation, an effective treatment program, it's not a treatment atmosphere where they can benefit solely from, other than security supervision. As far as the pregnant women, I don't know what the number is today, but we usually average -- and that was my former assignment more than Riverside, the main female facility. We averaged 144 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. between and 20, maybe pregnant women at any given time in custody. We housed them on a particular area where they are monitored more closely, both by the medical and security staff. We provide them with access to routine exams as dictated by their pregnancy. We do maintain those who are admitted on methadone, methadone during their pregnancy. We maintain that throughout their pregnancy. We also have a grant-funded program called the MomMobile that follows them prenatal, postnatal and if they're released in the meantime, after that for one year. So they can maintain community support. Their families will get some type of support and they just won't be left out in the cold when they're released.

One more 22 question. If you can submit to the Chair, I'd like to get, as it relates to your staffing, what are the number of bilingual personnel that you have and how 145 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. are they deployed throughout the system. (Bell rung.) COMMISSIONER GIORLA: I don't have the exact number of bilingual personnel.

But you can submit it. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: They're usually deployed so that we can provide bilingual services, at least limited bilingual services, in each facility. We'll submit that to the Chair.

Okay.

The Chair recognizes Councilman Rizzo.

Madam Chair, could I miss this round and come back to me, please?

Councilman Jones.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I took the liberty of looking at the contract information that you 146 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. provided me, and two things are glaring. One, I evaluate the contract done by Impact Services that comes out to, based on the 1,800 participants that they deal with, a per inmate cost of $1,411 per offender and per participant. Then I look at the JEVS contract that comes out to $5,200 per participant. And I was questioning why there's such a disparity in the training and why that disparity exists. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: I believe the disparity exists because the nature of the services are different. Impact Services provided employment counseling and ID -- one of the serious problems we encountered in reentry when we first started trying to address the subject was the fact of housing when an inmate is released in the community and identification. Post 9/11 it became very difficult for someone who is released from prison without a birth certificate to obtain a Social Security card, to 147 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. obtain a state ID, and while in custody, it became almost impossible for them to get a birth certificate or the state ID. Impact Services developed a method where they were able to more or less vouch for the individual, and we have a disbursement process where the inmate will pay a fee, they will apply for the identification. The identification will be released to Impact and then they'll pick it up upon release.

These are services provided by Impact? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: By Impact.

So why does JEVS cost so much? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Because the range of services that JEVS provides, they provide a number of vocational services where the supplies and the amount of inmates that they have enrolled is greater. They provide vocational services in the line of environmental 148 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. maintenance, customer service, computer instruction, building maintenance and -- I believe that's it.

So are you saying that JEVS's services are more complicated than Impact's? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Yes, they are.

And you're saying that the vocational side is what's costing so much as opposed to Impact, which is more social service? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Yes, it is.

So why are they both called job placement contracts? I mean, I'm not... COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Because under the JEVS umbrella, the training, the testing, the diagnostic piece that's done prior to the vocational placement and during the vocational training is broader than what Impact is providing or contracted for, for that matter. 149 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc.

All right. Thank you. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: You're welcome.

The Chair recognizes Councilman Rizzo.

Thank you. Thank you for that accommodation, Madam Chair. Commissioner, I understand in the media today that the Mayor has issued an Executive Order asking you and Mr. Gillison to conduct a study to come up with ways to control the prison population. I don't think I'll direct this to you, but maybe you can pass it on. I'd appreciate it, because I recollect that a report, a similar report, was just completed, and I'm hoping that the Administration is aware of that report. It was dated November 9, 2007, and I'd like to ask the Administration to forward a copy of that report to the Chair. 150 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Councilman Rizzo, I believe the report you may be referring to was conducted by Dr. John Goldkamp?

No. I think I'm talking about a report that -- I think it was the former Commissioner's report and it was presented to the Transition Team dated November 9th. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: I'm familiar with what you're recommending. We can forward you a copy of that.

You have a copy of that report? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Yes.

Could you provide that to the Chair? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Yes, we can.

So, again, is this just a fresh look at that issue or was that just a waste of time preparing that last report? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: I don't 151 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. believe it was a waste of time, and that, coupled with some other data that we're collecting, not only the Goldkamp report that I referred to but some other studies that we're conducting now, will be the basis of my response to the Mayor.

Okay. So you'll provide a copy of that report dated November 9th to the Chair, please? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Will do.

Thank you, Commissioner. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Miller.

Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. I just actually have one question. I'd like to get the data on recidivism. How many inmates are there today? What's your population count? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Our population as of midnight was 9,138. 152 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc.

Of that 9,100 plus, how many are there for pretrial and how many are there that you would include in a recidivism, a return to? And I'd also like to know if they're there because of recidivism, how many are there for parole or probation violations and what were the violations. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: I don't have a breakdown of that information at this time.

I know you don't have it. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: But the actual -- the composition of the population by sentenced and detentioner is approximately 60 percent detentioners, 40 percent sentenced. Within that sentenced population, there are some parole violators. As far as total recidivism?

Well, you can just give me within the sentenced, how many do you have that are sentenced, 153 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. do you know, of the 9,000? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Forty percent.

Okay. And within that sentenced, how many received the sentence because they were in violation of probation or parole? It's my understanding -- I know you're busting out at the seams and I just want to know how many are actually there because they committed a crime or how many are there because they had a cell phone or they couldn't pay a $125 fine. That's the information I'm looking for. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: I don't have that information with me.

Well, who would have it? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: We could extract that from our inmate tracking database.

Okay. I know you don't have it with you today. In fact, I meant to call you yesterday 154 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. and ask for that type of information. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: We can provide it.

Because from what I hear from offenders is that so many people are there because the parole or probation officer sent them back for some very small infractions, and I just want to know -- I want to have that information. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: We will provide it.

Okay. And the other thing, one other question, that's it. Is there an issue with treatment of inmates at the Delaware County facilities that we are paying to use? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: At this moment, we're no longer contracted with the Delaware County prison. I believe that contract expired -- well, as a matter of fact, because of an increase in the Delaware County population, we had to 155 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. withdraw from that sometime ago. I don't know whether they're having problems with inmate treatment in that facility.

But Philadelphia inmates are no longer there? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: No. 8 We're no longer housing anyone there.

All right. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Okay. Councilwoman Sanchez.

One more piece of information for the record. As you work with Deputy Mayor Everson -- and I had this conversation with him briefly before -- I have a concern around as we move to pre-release centers and some of the facilities that we have in the City, I think it's important that we map out their locations and similar situated programs so that we're not overburdening certain communities, and I'm particularly concerned because I have three 156 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. pre-release centers in a city block with a thousand beds and some potential expansion. And, again, we want to be helpful in providing these opportunities, but we also want to make sure as we disperse them throughout the City that there's a strategy for where we place them. I don't know how that happened. It was previous to my coming in, but it is a concern that I hear with the community. As we look at halfway houses and some other alternatives, that the City develop a strategy, a mapping strategy, around where they're really placed in the City. So I just wanted to put that in the record, that you keep that in the back of your mind as you plan and as you look to expand some of these services. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: We will.

Thank you.

Thank you very much. 157 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. I just have a couple of questions. Could you tell me what is your budget for inmate healthcare? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Our actual budget for inmate healthcare -- and I have the information here -- totals $55,200,000.

I'm sorry? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: $55,200,000.

What is your average medical cost for a detentioner? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: We don't collect that data as far as average cost per detentioner. What we look at is the number of visits that an inmate pays to the different healthcare services.

I guess the next question would be, are we trying to collect reimbursement for any of detentioners' medical expenses? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: I can give you that information. 158 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. (Witness approached witness table.)

My name is Bruce Herdman. I'm the Chief of Medical Operations for the Prison. We are exploring billing insurance companies for care provided first in hospitals, which is our major off-campus expense. Our expectation, although we haven't quantified it for sure, is that there are a substantial number of inmates who have not just medical assistance but commercial insurance, and the hospitals and specialists in the community should bill 17 those insurers before the City pays anything.

Does your vendors who provide medical services to the Prison, couldn't they bill -- do they have the capacity or ability to bill for the services they provide?

The two vendors do not have that capacity. The 159 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. conventional wisdom has been that because in the State of Pennsylvania inmates lose their medical assistance eligibility upon incarceration, that there really wasn't anybody to bill, but I think we've discovered more recently that numbers of inmates have commercial insurance, our Work Release people, people who are covered by virtue of their spouses working, and we need to take advantage of those policies.

Okay. Thank you very much. Are there any other questions? (No response.)

Thank you so much and congratulations and we wish you well. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Thank you and you're welcome. Have a good day.

Thank you. MR. McPHERSON: The next department is the Department of Records. (Witnesses approached witness 160 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. table.)

Good afternoon. COMMISSIONER DECKER: Good afternoon.

You may proceed. COMMISSIONER DECKER: Thank you. Good afternoon, Councilwoman and members of Council. My name is Joan Decker, Records Commissioner, and with me today are Jeanne Reedy, Administrative Services Director; Dave Werbo, Budget Director; and we also have several staff members, Diana Perry, Anita Banks and also Kieran Murphy, in the audience. Each year we like to take just a few minutes to recognize some of these staff members who help to make our operations very successful, we believe. So we thank them for their contributions. For FY09, the Records Department is requesting a General Fund Operating Budget of $7,679,871, which 161 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. maintains the Department of Records' '08 estimated budget obligations. This allocation is broken out as follows: Class 100, which is personal services, remains at $3,658,731. Class 200, purchase of services, allocation remains unchanged at $3,680,425. This level of funding supports continuous improvements in service deliveries to the public and is funded through the Department of Records' fee increases which were implemented in Fiscal Years '03, '04 and '05. Class 300, materials and supplies, remains at $195,408. Class 400, equipment, allocation remains at $143,851. And Class 500 remains at the '08 level of $1,456. I won't read word for word the testimony. I'll try to summarize it. Basically, the Records Department is charged with the care and maintenance and access to public records under its care. It exercises this through a number of public service rooms and also some 162 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. internal support units. Most visible and highly active is the Document Recording area, which is where we serve as the county Recorder of Deeds. Over the past several years, we have implemented an automated system. We've made continuous improvements and upgrades in automation, including optical character recognition. Also recently implemented electronic recording. All of these efforts are really targeted to improving service to our customers and decreasing the amount of time it takes us to process the records and, therefore, return them and make them available to the public. Our electronic recording initiative continues to grow. It now comprises approximately 30 percent of our document recording volume, and we have the participation of approximately 144 companies. We have also continued to send a document notice letter each time a deed 163 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. or a mortgage is recorded in our office. This alerts a homeowner to the recording of a deed or a mortgage against their property and hopefully gives them a first alert should there be any incidences of fraudulent transfer against their property. To date, we have sent over a half a million, actually over 600,000 notices to our citizens. Also along those lines we have just recently completed a fraud tracking system that will be shortly implemented. That will be an internal system and it will be used by other agencies who are interested and who collaborate with us in addressing this problem of fraudulent conveyance. We are attempting to convert as many records as we can, as many of the public records under our care as we can, and make them conveniently available to the public by 7, particularly on the 24 Internet. We have also continued and will continue to convert as many records 164 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. as we can and include them in online systems to make them more readily available. As far as the support of the Administration's emphasis on ethics, we are responsible for the financial disclosure statements of selected City employees and also for the processing and availability, public availability, of campaign finance reports. As an internal service agency, we have some internal units, including Central Duplicating. They process thousands of requests each year, and we also support a records storage center. It's the size of a football field.

We manage 100,000 cubic feet of records, and we're responsible for not only transferring the records in for storage, but also destroying them at the end of their useful life cycle. And these are some of the major initiatives that we've identified in our written testimony, the turn-around times, 165 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. and our commitment to service delivery to the public. And we appreciate your support for these initiatives which we've outlined, and I'm happy to answer any questions you may have.

Thank you very much. I don't have a lot of questions. I just want to ask you one thing. When you receive a deed in your department, does a copy of that go to the Revenue Department? COMMISSIONER DECKER: The Revenue --

How does the Revenue Department get its documentation of a sale? COMMISSIONER DECKER: The Revenue Department on a nightly basis takes an extract of the records that were -- the deeds recorded on that day and takes that extract and uses it in their system.

I can't 166 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. really hear you. COMMISSIONER DECKER: Sorry. The Revenue Department does receive an extract of our documents every day. So the deeds that are recorded in our system are extracted and made available to the Revenue, particularly the Real Estate Unit.

One of the problems that we are having in our community and in this City is the inability to contact owners of properties. If there's a nuisance property in a community, sometimes there is an agent listed and not the owner of the property. I guess we could come back to the Records Department and get the owner. Do you take the owner or do you take the -- the owner has to be listed as the purchaser of the property on your records? COMMISSIONER DECKER: Yes. That's correct. That's correct.

You have 167 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. an address for that person? COMMISSIONER DECKER: Yes. On the deed there is an area that's called a Certification, and that Certification Statement contains the address where really the City supposedly can contact them and where tax bills can be sent. And that's a -- it's called a Certification Statement. So that includes that.

Okay. Of course, you know we have to ask you the question. You did respond to the issue of how fraud and how homeowners lose their property through fraudulent means, and I see that you are addressing that issue. Councilman Greenlee has the flu and I'm sure he would be here to ask a question about what you're doing to -- I mean, some things are going to fall through the cracks, but it seems you are taking some action to protect the citizens. COMMISSIONER DECKER: Yes. We 168 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. do what we're allowed to do within the laws. The recording process is mandated by Pennsylvania statutes, so they're not City laws. We are required to follow them. That means that we have to follow what they tell us to look for and we're not permitted to request or look for other pieces of material. We have worked over the past several years not only to distribute the document notice letter, but we also work with the Philadelphia Bar Association. There is an established committee known as the Fraudulent Conveyance Committee, and its participants include not only the Records Department but also representatives from the District Attorney's Office Economic Crime Unit, as well as Police inspectors who are assigned to work with the District Attorney on these matters, a number of non-profit organizations that provide legal services to victims of property fraud who cannot afford to pay for 169 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. attorneys. Those organizations include the Senior Law Center, Philadelphia Volunteers for the Indigent Program, Community Legal Services and other interested participants, members of some of the larger land title insurance companies, the lawyers participate as well. We have met over the past three years, I would say, and a lot of this fraud is something that we've been aware of just for about three years, and a lot of this has been a learning process for all the entities involved. And the objective of this group really, as we have learned how fraud occurs and some of the measures that we can take at least to notify homeowners, is really to try to provide direction for legal services. The most important step that a victim of fraud can take is to obtain the services of a lawyer as soon as possible. That's on the civil side. Some of these cases obviously, there's fraud involved, and 170 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. they are prosecuted on the criminal side of the law. But, again, the goal of this committee so far has been to try to understand how this is occurring, what trends may be surfacing and also primarily to -- again, we've worked with the Philadelphia Bar Association, who through their lawyer and referral information service, there's a contact number there. They provide a list of about participating real estate 14 attorneys who will take these cases. 15 They're for-fee attorneys, and for those individuals who cannot afford a lawyer, they're directed to one of these non-profit organizations that I've mentioned. We have found that there are some patterns to fraud. There are -- frequently elderly are targets of property fraud. They may temporarily be out of their homes, in a nursing home or recuperating with a relative, and the 171 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. property gives the appearance of being vacant or abandoned. I would say the largest frequency occurs in houses that appear to be vacant or abandoned. It appears that these fraudulators, which we call them, really are on the look-out for any kind of a house, a residence, that looks like it's unoccupied. We do have a list of tips for homeowners on our website. We encourage those homeowners really if they need to be away from their property, make sure that they have some kind of light timers on their property or a trusted individual will check on their property. Do not give the appearance of mail accumulating on their porches and so on, so forth.

So with everything that we're permitted to do within the boundaries of the law, we have implemented measures. We also in the walk-in deeds in our Document Recording Room, we have a camera which takes the photo of anybody who comes in and wants to record a deed, and 172 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. we also request that they sign a logbook. So they place their signature as well as the address of the property in question. We also request identification. We cannot require this by law. This is voluntary, but if they do -- we ask, and if they furnish it, we have a record of this.

Point of information.

Yes.

Is she saying we cannot by law require to do an ID verification? COMMISSIONER DECKER: That's correct.

Because of the state? COMMISSIONER DECKER: That's correct.

As a city, we couldn't pass an ordinance to require an ID verification? State statute prohibits that? 173 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. COMMISSIONER DECKER: I don't believe you'd be able to do that, because this whole area is governed by Pennsylvania statutes.

So when someone comes in within an ID; for instance, one of the areas is the sibling, there's a lot of transfers, sister to brother, uncle to aunt, whatever. How do we verify that? COMMISSIONER DECKER: Again, we request information, but we cannot require it. We'll work with the Revenue Real Estate. The Records Department functions as a revenue agent for both the City and also the State in the collection of realty transfer taxes, and under that set of laws, we perform collection of realty transfer taxes at the time a deed is presented for recording. In that capacity, we will ask the Revenue Department what kinds of documentation would you request. We'll make an attempt to ask for that at the counter, but, 174 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. again, we have to record the deed if it meets the other legal requirements. If the individual is not able to provide that information at the counter at the time of recording, we cannot refuse to record. The area of law which we've tried to suggest to have pass, we've not been successful at, which would be the notary law. In the document recording process, the notary performs a very important function. They really validate the identity of the, in the case of a deed, the seller of a property. The land records law for notaries requires that that person who has to sign the deed personally appears before a notary, and the notary is to request identification and the notary is also required to maintain a journal of transactions with certain other information in it. One of the weaknesses of the current law -- it's actually twofold. As you have just mentioned, even if someone 175 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. provides an identification card, in the case of some of these fraudulators, it's a false identity. They've manufactured an identity. They come in with photo ID. So there's really little way -- they use fictitious names and they have a false identity. So there's not a lot of ways that you can verify that. But law enforcement tells us that if a notary were required to place their thumb print in the notary journal, that would give them the ability of traceability, that it's likely that if someone is performing this type of criminal activity, it's possible that they already have a criminal record and would be able to be traced. Another weakness of the law is that any of us can go to certain companies that sell notary equipment, notary stamps and seals, and I could walk into one of these companies and purchase this equipment and pass myself off as a notary. And so the suggested change is 176 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. to make that a criminal offense. There's no real offense for presenting yourself to be a notary if you are not duly commissioned. So we will be again approaching the General Assembly. The notary law is also part of the state statutes. And we'll also make that recommendation and attempt to have that resubmitted and reconsidered at the General Assembly level.

I have some more questions, but I'll wait for my time.

Well, you'll wait until you come back. Well, it seems to me that -- I'm trying to place under the circumstances. I go into a bank and had to leave my thumb print for a transaction. It seems that we ought to be able -- maybe that's federal law. There's banking state law also. Maybe we can request that, too. Given the nature 177 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. of this current wave of fraud, property fraud, the state should take a different look at what's going on. Have you found the state to be open to recommendations for change? COMMISSIONER DECKER: We haven't been successful in the notary law, for example. We tried to present that. I think the District Attorney's Office first presented that several years ago, and they did testify before the General Assembly, without success, and we've tried to get it on the agenda since then and have not been successful in doing that. But, again, we will continue with our efforts. We're certainly open to suggestions for other ways to deal with this, but, again, we believe that the notary already by law is charged with confirming the identity and there is a requirement for personal appearance of the seller of the property before the notary. So we believe that that would be 178 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. one of the key areas to look for change. But, again, we're open to any other suggestions.

Okay. Councilwoman Miller.

Thank you. Good afternoon, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER DECKER: Good afternoon.

I have a question regarding the transferring of property. I noted you take a digital picture of anyone transferring a property, and I heard you say that in your testimony. COMMISSIONER DECKER: Yes.

And suppose someone says that they don't want their picture taken. Can you force them? I mean, is that an absolute requirement? COMMISSIONER DECKER: No, we cannot force them. We cannot force them.

That's 179 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. what I thought. And also, how long is the digital picture stored and is it printed and attached to the record? COMMISSIONER DECKER: We keep the pictures indefinitely. We haven't deleted anything that's been entered into the system. The way that we can trace, if we have to, to associate the photo with the recorded document is going back to this logbook. Every time we record a document, the recording date and the time is imprinted on the document so we know the day in which that document was presented and recorded, as well as the time. We can go back to that logbook and look for the signature on that date, as well as into the system and pull up the photographs and the address on that date. So there is a way to cross-connect them. These photos have been used by the District Attorney's Office. We are required and periodically have been requested to furnish some of this information. The Records Department is 180 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. not privy to investigations of the District Attorney, so I don't know what all of the outcomes are, but we do make all this information and we work with the District Attorney's Office to provide copies of the photos, copies of signatures in the logbook and any other -- and also we do keep copies of IDs. If an ID is furnished, we'll make a copy of it and also maintain a file of the IDs.

One of the incidents that happened in the newspaper, that was published in the newspaper, actually happened when someone came to my office. My legislative aide and I were just talking about it. Because I believe the person that came to our office also had a fraudulent driver's license that they made up with the true owner of the property's name on the driver's license but his picture. So people are very creative and they can come up with all kinds of 181 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. documents now that would not -- you wouldn't think that they're false or fraudulent to be exact, but this is -- we have people that come in our office every week about people trying to take their properties from them. Would you happen to know how many deeds were recorded in 2007 and of those recorded did you get any calls on what was recorded that was fraudulent? COMMISSIONER DECKER: Jeanne is going to look up the actual number of recorded deeds, but I can tell you to date since we started sending the document notice letters, we keep a list of reports of suspected fraud to our department. That is not the whole universe of calls, but this is what we are aware of. And we've received a little under 300 reports of suspected fraud. We have 50,687 deeds recorded in '07, Fiscal '07.

And you said 300? 182 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. COMMISSIONER DECKER: Three hundred over a three-year period. So it's just a little under a hundred year reports. Now, again, we do not know whether these are legitimate. We just know from our experience in taking the phone calls that sometimes they're family disputes. It's not really clear whether there is a legitimate concern there, but we believe that many of them are definitely legitimate concerns. As I mentioned, a high proportion of victims of fraudulent property fraud are the elderly. We also notice that there's a high proportion in immigrant neighborhoods where the customs perhaps of another country are a little bit different than they are in the United States as far as property conveyance and notaries are concerned. So I believe there's somewhat of a learning curve there. And also where there are other areas, abandoned 183 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. vacant properties. Incidents of these seem to appear generally in areas where maybe there are deeds of condemnation filed or we learned later are about to be filed or have been filed. So, again, wherever there is the elderly, immigrant populations, where there are vacant properties and also where there's the prospect that property values will be increasing because there is perhaps the promise of redevelopment that is coming, we think that they are, in general, the patterns. And we have been attempting to collect information to try to, as much as we can, confirm what we believe to be happening, that that is what is happening.

I think that the number of people trying to take properties increased when we started -- actually, when NTI came into existence. I think a lot of fraudulent activities took place. Not just around homeownership, but also people made up 184 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. construction companies to get money from people for home repair. (Bell rung.)

And I think once -- when the property values started increasing in Philadelphia is when a lot of this actually started to take place. I know from my office, we never had that many problems, that many constituents concerned about these issues until the NTI started, which was good, a good thing. Abandoned homes being torn down, property values going up, all those were good activities, but then on top of that good is when all this other fraudulent activity started to take place. I know it did in my district. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. COMMISSIONER DECKER: You're welcome.

Councilwoman Sanchez.

The 185 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. demographics that you described are the ones in my district, and since I've been in office weeks, we get at least two a 5 week, if not more, of these cases. So it 6 is something that is very important. So 7 for me, if you could submit to the Chair 8 what are some of the proposals we've been 9 proposing in Harrisburg, which ones 10 haven't moved. Because one of the things 11 that I think we need to explore is 12 through our City Solicitor what we can do in the interim, because it is -- and I think it's much more rampant than we know. In terms of the ones that we've been able to identify that have been done fraudulently, is there a pattern with the notary that the DA's Office is pursuing at this time? COMMISSIONER DECKER: In some of the cases, some of the cases involve multiple properties, and in some of those cases, the notaries are in collusion with the transaction. In some, they're not, 186 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. for exactly the reason you've mentioned, Councilwoman Miller mentioned. It's possible to replicate IDs, to construct false photo IDs. So in some cases, the notary may not be able always to identify or to look under the surface to confirm that the ID is legitimate and not fraudulent.

Do we have a way to trigger when certain people, if there's an excess volume of certain people in certain areas, is there anything we're doing to set up some white flags? And I say that because I have found in one particular gentleman's case that we're working with the DA's Office, 100 properties under this person's name. COMMISSIONER DECKER: I mentioned in my testimony that we have just completed developing a fraud tracking system and that we're waiting to have that installed and to be used by this group, this internal group that I've mentioned, which consists of law 187 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. enforcement and some of the non-profits. What that will enable us to do is to identify trends in clusters. If something is happening in a particular area, the system is a reporting system that is connected to a geographic information system, sort of a location, and we'll be able to see if something is occurring or if there's several occurring in a particular area. It will be a little bit more easy for us to determine that. So that is the way. And also if there is the report of a suspected fraudulent activity by name and we're seeing several of them, it would be through this system that we would be able to identify whether there are patterns or clusters of these incidents occurring.

Would the system allow you to do an overlay? Councilwoman Donna Reed Miller mentioned the whole issue of NTI. Would it allow you to do an overlay; for instance, the 188 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. properties that we've done demolition on? In my case there's been over 300 demolitions under NTI. Could we quickly do an overlay to see if any of those properties have been transferred in the last couple years? COMMISSIONER DECKER: We'll work on that. That's possible for us to do that, and we will work on putting that together for you.

Okay. On another note -- I mean, I can't say enough of how important this issue is going to be for us moving forward. I mean, we're looking forward to the hearings and being able to talk about what we do as a legislative body, working with the General Assembly. But on another note, in terms of the campaign finance reporting piece, how much money has the Records Department invested in this process? How much is it costing us? Are you finding it cost effective? Because some of the 189 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. discussions have been it's like kind of a triplication of where people submit the stuff. So what's your assessment up to date? And are most of those services being contracted out, and at what point are they coming in as part of what we do on a daily basis? COMMISSIONER DECKER: The development of the system was contracted out and it's maintained by a combination of it's internal staff who are assigned to it, as well as an outside contractor. I believe the investment has been very productive. As we have been charged with this and been complying with the mandate to require electronic submission of data, we have met each of the cycles. As everyone here knows, there are seven cycles for campaign finance filing. We met with the groups consistently throughout this whole process and we gathered input about the features that everyone was interested in, and we've made a series of improvements 190 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. over the past year and a half. When you speak of duplication of data, what we now --

No, no. 6 I'm just saying -- we're streamlining it. I know. I've been part of those discussions, and the company has been very receptive, being able to upload from Excel and all these other things, but at what point in the services that we're contracting out are we going to be able to provide internally? COMMISSIONER DECKER: Well, it's split, and we probably would keep it that way. We have a vendor who will maintain the software that was developed, but we also have internal staff who will be supporting this as well. So it's two things.

The only reason I ask is because it would seem to me that the same system we should be encouraging our City Commissioners' Office to use. Since you've adopted 191 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. pretty much and accommodated their filing requirement needs, I would think that at some point we would want to look at how those things come together, since they're still requiring paper versus the electronic filing piece. So that's something -- COMMISSIONER DECKER: And we'd be more than happy to provide them with the software and let them use this as well.

Okay. Thank you.

Councilwoman Rizzo.

Commissioner, how are you doing? COMMISSIONER DECKER: I'm all right. How are you?

Thanks for all your good work. I really appreciate your entire team. Whenever we have an issue, you guys get right on it and make people happy, and that's good in our 192 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. business. COMMISSIONER DECKER: Good. Thank you.

One of the things that I picked up on during the process here was that the Planning Commission has a lot of things that I think that you also do, and it's in the area of maps. They asked for $20,000 to produce additional maps when Councilmembers make requests. I'm wondering if you guys could get together and maybe streamline that, because if you're doing some of that and that would satisfy our needs or -- again, I don't know if there's any collaboration that would work between the two of you, but it seems as though there may be, and the Planning Commission and your organization might be able to streamline some of these requests for information and save the taxpayers some dollars. COMMISSIONER DECKER: And --

You do maps, 193 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. correct? COMMISSIONER DECKER: Yes, we do. We do what we call parcel maps, the maps that are generated from the legal descriptions on deeds. But we certainly will be happy to meet with them, and to the extent that we can become more efficient and save the City money, we're certainly all for that.

One of the things, the public perceives us as not being as creative as the private sector, and sometimes I have to agree, but I remind people that the government can never be run like the private sector, but it seems as though there's so much overlap, there's so much duplication of effort. Everybody wants to have their own control over what they do, but I think that knowing you, that you aren't this turf conscious as some, that that relationship could work out, because they spend a tremendous amount of money and they're asking for 20,000 more just for 194 3/26/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080022, etc. maps to make them available. So I'd appreciate it, and if you could get back to us to let us know if anything develops as a result of that, it would be appreciated. COMMISSIONER DECKER: Okay. We will do that.

Great. Thank you, Commissioner. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you very much. Are there any other questions? (No response.)

There being no further questions, we thank you so much for coming in to testify. COMMISSIONER DECKER: Thank you very much.

This hearing is recessed until Monday at 10:00 a.m. (Committee of the Whole adjourned at 2:50 p.m.) 195 CERTIFICATE I HEREBY CERTIFY that the proceedings, evidence and objections are contained fully and accurately in the stenographic notes taken by me upon the foregoing matter on March 26, 2008, and that this is a true and correct transcript of same. ______________________________ MICHELE L. MURPHY RPR-Notary Public (The foregoing certification of this transcript does not apply to any reproduction of the same by any means, unless under the direct control and/or supervision of the certifying reporter.)