You are out of order, I will agree, but I your comments are quite accurate, actually. 030404 - STATED - INTRO. OF BILLS But that being said, I understand that some bills require a lot more time. Under the Minority Leader's description of the timing, it would be that these kinds of bills would have to circulated a week in advance. We circulated this bill somewhere between 1:00 p.m. and 2:00 p.m. yesterday.
Madam President, I didn't say a week in advance. I said more than a day in advance. That would have been 10 o'clock yesterday.
And I think I heard you say, and I'm paraphrasing, a week would be sufficient time. So I took that to mean that these kinds of bills -
No, that's not what I said. If I have to re-clarify, I will.
If I had this before 10 o'clock yesterday, I have would have had yesterday to talk to Councilman DiCicco about it and work on how I was going to vote on it, whether it was in the right Committee, 030404 - STATED - INTRO. OF BILLS whether there might be some changes to the content of it. By getting it late, that doesn't happen. So the only other alternative is either vote on it so it doesn't appear you're against finding alternative sources of revenue -- and I know we all agree on that -or letting it sit a week when there's nothing that requires us to have to have this done by next Thursday. If there were, any rule suspension given the 24-hour rule, meaning a day or a day meaning 24 hours, would suffice.
The Chair recognizes Councilman Goode, I believe.
Thank you, Madam President. I'd like to ask the sponsor of the amendment if we follow his line of thinking why the Operating Budget is referred to the Committee of the Whole?
Because it's in 030404 - STATED - INTRO. OF BILLS the Rules.
So as we consider the budget, wouldn't it also be appropriate to consider a resolution that also talks about how to fund the budget?
If you're in the Mayor's budget message, they will be. We have that coming up in two weeks, I believe. I'd be glad to support that.
I believe this resolution deals specifically with how to fund this budget because of an anticipated deficit. And the budget is in the Committee of the Whole. I don't see why considering how to fund that budget would not be in the Committee of the Whole. Thank you.
Councilman Cohen, is it a point of order? Councilman, your microphone is not on. And if you are asking for a point of 030404 - STATED - INTRO. OF BILLS order -
Councilman Cohen, if you'd just let me respond and then I will yield to you. Just let me respond to the Minority Leader.
I believe I heard you say had you gotten this prior to 10:00 a.m. yesterday you probably would have had enough time to read it give me a call to discuss it. I apologize again that this resolution was circulated anywhere between three and four hours after the 24-hour period. My understanding is that this resolution was delivered to every Councilmember's office somewhere between 1:00 p.m. and 2:00 p.m. yesterday. I don't know that three hours makes all that much difference. If I heard you correctly saying that had you had it by 10:00 you and I would have had the conversation. I know there was a strategy session 030404 - STATED - INTRO. OF BILLS or meeting going on yesterday somewhere around that time. I was in my office. Other people were in their offices. You have staff. I'm sure staff brought it to your attention. I am available 24 hours a day as are just about every other Member of the Council. People call me up at night -
Your time is 10:00 a.m. Unfortunately, and I apologize for probably the 10th time, it got there three hours after your time of 10:00 a.m.
Councilman Cohen, you have a point of information?
I'm not moving 030404 - STATED - INTRO. OF BILLS to table it.
I've moving to amend it. The issues of 24 hours are not before us because there's no motion to table. Thank you.
You raised the issue that you didn't have sufficient time. I didn't raise that as an issue, you did, Councilman.
Councilman Cohen, I believe you had a point of order.
Madam President, you know, this is the 25th year, as I understand it, of Councilman O'Neill's service in City Council. Never before have I heard him raise any technical issue such as this. For anybody to raise this issue, one must have a lot of confidence in what one is doing. And 030404 - STATED - INTRO. OF BILLS I say that this is pure evidence of the fact that this is now a Republican, not a Democratic body. And I think the first order of business ought to be a resolution of apology to the voters of Philadelphia who believe last November that they overwhelmingly elected a Democrat. In my ward, 97.3 percent of the voters voted democratic, and they would take huge offense at this body becoming a Republican-led body or having a Republican in the position that Councilman O'Neill is. And I'm just horrified at the thought that my Democratic colleagues -- those who were Democratic in the campaign, I don't know what they are now -- have voted to turn over a final decision to a Republican. I don't know of any other Democratic body in the United States at a civic level that permits the losing party to control their events. And to have Brian O'Neill, a Republican, in the position of making final decisions and having the brazenness to argue this point. He knows full well, to the limited extent he knows anything about these Rules gathered during the 030404 - STATED - INTRO. OF BILLS 24 years of service, he knows that being a member of a committee gives you -
The Chair recognizes Councilman O'Neill for a point of order.
I think our Rules address believe insulting other members. Councilman Cohen does that on a regular basis.
Well, all I'm referring to is Councilman O'Neill in the first 24 years of his membership in this body ever raise any such point. But what I want to point out -
His memory has nothing to do with this issue, Madam Chairman.
Yes, it does. It has a lot to do with the nature of this body.
The Chair recognizes -030404 - STATED - INTRO. OF BILLS
The Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter for a point of order.
Madam President, I am going to ask my good colleague and good friend -- the debate can go on all day long. I'm pleased to sit here and listen to it. I do necessarily plan to engage in it. I do want to ask my good colleague and friend Councilman Cohen, notwithstanding what our Rules say and notwithstanding what Mason's Manual says or Robert's Rules or Order or anybody else or a civic organization or anything else, I think we have reached a point where the personal nature of comments 030404 - STATED - INTRO. OF BILLS regarding any of our colleagues on any issue, regardless of you passion, regardless of how you feel about it, there is a way to conduct a debate, as heated and passionate as it can be, in a civil fashion. So I will ask my good friend and colleague to refrain from personal comments about any member of this body. And he is not the only person. I'm sure at any given point in time anyone of us can be driven to the point of saying something about a member. And if I've done it, I apologize here on the floor of the Council. But I ask that as long as this debate goes on or any other debates that we have that we all do our best to respect each and every Member who is elected to body to argue about and talk about whatever it is that they want to talk about, but the personal references are not helping us get through either today's debate or the next three and three-quarters year where we have a lot of work to do. And I just make that request on the floor to my colleague in this particular instance, but it applies to all of us and certainly myself included. 030404 - STATED - INTRO. OF BILLS Thank you, Madam President.
The Chair recognizes Councilman Rizzo for a point of information.
Madam President, in an effort to be thorough and fair to the sponsor, I checked not once, not twice, but three times. Neither of these two resolutions ever got to my office. So forget the 24-hour rule and it being late, it never got there. And I've checked with every one of my staff; this never got there. And I just want for the record because, again, this is something that's complex. It requires some information about -- especially the resolution urging the House of Representatives. So I just want to make sure, and again to be fair to the sponsor, to let him know that we have never received either of these two resolutions as of this morning. Thank you. 030404 - STATED - INTRO. OF BILLS
You had the floor and I believe there was a point of order and a point of information. So you now have the floor again
Well, I'd like to know from Councilman Nutter whether he would answer one question. Would he be receptive to getting a question from me? Is the reference to the fact that someone is a member of an opposing party a personal reference? Because I have to deny your request if that's the case. With respect to the statement I made about Councilman O'Neill, I didn't think I was making a personal comment, but I can see how you can interpret it. And if I offended anyone, I'm ready to apologize. I was merely noting what I had studied from the record and what I knew personally. It was not an attack in any way on Councilman O'Neill. It was merely a 030404 - STATED - INTRO. OF BILLS reflection of a statement of what his positions have dealt with and what they've not dealt with in the last 24 years. I did not know that that would be offensive. But if Councilman O'Neill feels it is offensive to refer to his record, then I'm sorry and I apologize to Councilman O'Neill for offending him. But I have to refer to the fact that we're operating in a partisan -
Councilman Cohen, I think you were asking a question of Councilman Nutter. He is ready to respond.
If I refer to some Member of this body as being Republican -
Councilman Cohen, I know what the question is. Councilman Cohen I appreciate your response and your apology. My comments were not directed with regard to your statement 030404 - STATED - INTRO. OF BILLS about the political party membership of Councilman O'Neill. I do not believe that that is a secret. Or your reference to his Minority leadership. I think we all know that. It was a very narrow response to a part of a sentence which went something a comment with regard what the Councilman may or may not know about the Rules which seem to be of a more personal nature regarding his understanding or not. What the Councilman's record is, I think is a public record and is probably fair game for discussion and debate. The Councilman can debate or defend his record. Our actions take place here in public. It was specifically and very narrowly focused on an issue of what a Member knows or what a Member doesn't know. And I think, again, in most of the Rules that try to cover jurisdiction of legislative bodies, I believe that there is a specific reference to reframing from even commenting on the motives of a particular member and what that member is doing or not doing. The rest of your comments, that's between you and Councilman 030404 - STATED - INTRO. OF BILLS O'Neill in the course of this debate. I was solely speaking about the issue with regard to his knowledge on a particular matter. Thank you, Madam President. Thank you, Councilman Cohen.
You're welcome. I believe your question was answered, Councilman.
Thank you, Madam President. I think that this legislative body has taken a strong turn for the worse, and my prediction is it's going to get continually worse because I don't know how a politically sensitive body -- and this must be politically sensitive because the Democrats are being held to their leadership abilities. The voters voted for a Democratic body. How could this 030404 - STATED - INTRO. OF BILLS body dare under any circumstances to turn over final decision-making to the Republican Leader? He represents only three people. His party was overwhelmed in the last election just held last fall. How could our Majority Leader, a Democratic Majority Leader play the role she's played in turning over this control? Or how could any member of the Democratic party justify placing the Republican in charge of final decision-making? It would be just as if Senator Curry and Senator Edwards at the last moment said, "We have a disagreement. We don't care what the workers says, let's ask President Bush to make the decision for us because he's the highest ranking Republican."
I hear a point of order, but I don't know who's saying it. Councilman Goode.
Thank you, Madam President. There is nothing within our Rules that deals with the referral of resolutions, 030404 - STATED - INTRO. OF BILLS which is why I believe the sponsor of this amendment has chosen to amend the resolution. That's why it also requires a vote of Council.
Well, I don't know that, but I know there's a vast difference, and I think everybody knows this, between being a member of a committee and not being a member of a committee. I would oppose this particular resolution because I have absolutely no confidence in the Finance Committee. And the reason I have no confidence in the Finance Committee is that the Chairman of that Committee apparently decided with the Republican member that I wasn't capable of continuing to work as a Member of the Finance Committee, therefore, I would have to come in as most bodies require freshman members to come in, sit as a member of the audience, and only after every Member of the Committee has fully asked every question they want to is the Member sitting among the audience am able to ask a question. You don't have the same rights as a Member of Council attending a Committee of which you are 030404 - STATED - INTRO. OF BILLS not a member as a Member of the Committee has. You may sit there two or three hours before you get a chance to ask a question. That is probably a correct decision to give the rights first to Committee Members. But I've never before been in a body -- and I would strongly protest any conclusion that I was not fit to serve on the Finance -
There's a point of order, Councilman Cohen, by Councilman Kelly. The Chair recognizes Councilman Kelly.
Madam President, I'm making a point of order because I think all the rhetoric coming from Councilman Cohen has not relevance to the point of Councilman O'Neill. He made an amendment, it was seconded. Now, we just have to recognize Councilman O'Neill and his amendment and let's get on with it and let's start either voting for or against this amendment. But I would just like to mention that Councilman Cohen 030404 - STATED - INTRO. OF BILLS just stick with the topic at hand.
I have much to say and over many weeks it will be and maybe over many years, if the Lord permits me to. But I think this is a most outrageous event. In my whole experience as Councilman that if a Member wished to serve on a committee, that Member's wishes were recognized. I don't know what happened. I know I was on eight committees before. Now I'm on four as a Member without respect to being chairman or vice chairman. And I'd like to know why was I taken off of Finance. Was it felt I didn't know enough about finance? And I'd like to get answers from Councilwoman Blackwell and Councilman O'Neill as to why I was taken off of the those committees. Therefore, I'm opposed to anything in the Finance Committee -
I'm sorry, Councilman O'Neill, I can't hear you. 030404 - STATED - INTRO. OF BILLS
I can just say I think it was good decision. I thought it was a good decision then and I think it's good decision now. Thank you.
And Councilman O'Neill, I think it's time you apologized for a statement you made about me many years ago.
Councilman Cohen, I would really appreciate it if you would simply address the issue that's on the floor at the present time.
Well, the issue is whether this should go to the Finance Committee and I'm addressing why I have absolutely no confidence in the composition of that Committee, particularly in its leadership. Because I was a member of the Committee. I think I served very faithfully for the years I was on it. I requested to be continued on it, and I was rejected. And there are only two people that I know who rejected me, and that was Councilwoman Blackwell and Councilman O'Neill. And I think I'm entitled to an answer. 030404 - STATED - INTRO. OF BILLS Now, this new Republican-led City Council follows the policy that the Republicans follow at the state and federal levels where they are in control properly where they have a votes, and that is never give a Democrat an answer. Never tell them why you've done anything, a Democrat isn't worthy of even knowing why things are done. And that's the main complaint of Democrats in Harrisburg and Washington. To have a lead Democratic body taking actions and then refusing to explain or discuss -- so let me ask Councilwoman Blackwell, people have asked me, "How come you're not on the Finance Committee? I thought you did very well." I'd like to get answers.
Thank you, Madam President. Councilman Cohen is clearly out of order on the motion on the floor. And Councilman Ramos wishes to be recognized.
Thank you. 030404 - STATED - INTRO. OF BILLS I think there are several Members that would like to be recognized. At this time, the Chair recognizes Councilman Ramos.
Thank you, Madam President. I'm the freshman in this great legislative body, and I'm so honored to be a member here because the people of Philadelphia put that trust on my by voting me in here. I was not given a script on what City Council does or anything of that nature. Didn't expect it. I came here knowing that I had a job to do. So the only thing I can go by as I vote around here is to go by the Rules that were approved and given to me. And on the Committee on Finance, it says all matters relating to finance, taxation, all matters relating to taxes should go to this Committee. Because I have not been instructed to think otherwise, my thinking is that all matters relating to finance, taxation, and all matters relating to taxes, all matters relating to revenue go to this Committee. So when I act, I will act on what's been given me to read and 030404 - STATED - INTRO. OF BILLS abide by. Also, in Section 2, it says "The President shall preserve order and decorum and force all rules adopted for the government of the Council." I can only go by what has been given to me as rules that have been established by the Council. And it is only by those guidelines that I will rule. And I am actually very troubled at this time as a freshman, my two months of service in this Council, very exciting two months for me. All of you have been in some way directly or indirectly have been of some help to me. I've cosponsored bills with Jim Kenney and a number of my other colleagues here, David Cohen and many Members of this Council. I will continue to work in that way. But I can only go by and vote on the Rules that have been passed on to me. Thank you, Madam President.
Thank you. Councilman O'Neill, I think in a way I did hear you say, and correct me if I'm 030404 - STATED - INTRO. OF BILLS wrong, it's never inappropriate to refer a resolution or an ordinance to the Committee of the Whole?
I think there are many areas in our Rules where a bill can be referred to several different committees. I think we should limit, to the extent possible, referrals to the Committee of the Whole when we have a specific committee that deals with the subject matter. And I understand there's a disagreement. And that's what legislative bodies are all about. And I'm not about to insult anyone who disagrees with me on this or has a different position or bring other areas into it. I'm in my 25th year and I'm not going to start insulting people at this point. I believe this belongs in Finance, just as I believe the tax reform bills belonged in Finance. I think that they should be there. If they become part of the Mayor's budget message, they go into the Committee of the Whole. That's easy to do. But I believe the Finance Committee 030404 - STATED - INTRO. OF BILLS has a role. I didn't always serve on the Finance Committee and I didn't always serve on may other committees. And whether it was George Schwartz or another President, those decisions were made by people other than myself and you accept it and go on. But I strongly believe that we should be consistent in dealing with issues like this when the budget has its place in the Committee of the Whole and tax bills or bills dealing with taxation, resolutions like this belong there. And I'm just looking for majority support and that's what this Council is all about. Thank you.
Madam President, point of information. Let me note that from Mason's Rules, , for my colleagues who want to know, Section 396, it states "Every original main motion may be amended." We have a motion to amend a 030404 - STATED - INTRO. OF BILLS resolution on the table. It has been seconded, and I ask for roll call.
If the amended motion on the floor is in order, is it not also in order to debate that motion or have the opportunity to discuss that motion?
Councilman Kenney, I think before Councilwoman Blackwell was recognized you wanted to be recognized for a point order.
Thank you. Madam President, I too served on the Finance Committee up until this term and, 030404 - STATED - INTRO. OF BILLS again, like Councilman Cohen, 12 years in tenure, more senior member the body, was taken off that committee. I don't why either, but that's not the issue I'm raising. I do believe that Councilman Cohen is correct when he says that being a member of a Committee does give you a certain level of authority as opposed to simply a Councilmember who is spectating at a hearing of committee that they're not a member of. I think one of the concerns that I have, frankly, is that if this were to be passed through the Finance Committee, would we get a hearing on the resolution? And I think that if the Chairperson of the Committee would commit to a specific date certain for a hearing, I would feel better and would be more willing to support that amendment that Councilman O'Neill is raising if we knew in fact, even though I'm not on the committee, if I knew in fact for certain prior to the passage of our budget we have a hearing on this particular resolution. It would give me a better level of comfort. 030404 - STATED - INTRO. OF BILLS
Madam President, as Chair of the Finance Committee that is being referenced this morning, I resent the inference that we are not try to do a good job. We have. I've been here since January 3, 1976. My record speaks for itself, and I will not commit to any date when we will have a hearing, as has never been done in this Council. I refuse, and the answer is no.
The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Miller. Is she still here? Did Councilwoman Miller leave the room?
I believe the next one to speak is Councilman Goode.
Thank you, Madam President. I just wanted to note for the record once again that not only the budget bills but the tax bills are going to be heard 030404 - STATED - INTRO. OF BILLS by the Committee of the Whole. I believe this is what this resolution refers to. I see no reason why this bill can't be considered in the Committee of the Whole when it deals specifically with those bills.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Mariano.
I move for the a previous question, Council President.
Point of information. Can someone clarify what the previous question was. It's been a little confusing.
It's the previous question, Councilman O'Neill's amendment.
You made a motion. It requires four seconds, four people 030404 - STATED - INTRO. OF BILLS to second it, as I understand from our attorney.
In effect, if that motion is passed, does that then stifle the debate? The debate ends?
That's what I am told. Four different Councilmembers to second the motion. That is what I am being told by our attorney.
Have we ever done that before? 030404 - STATED - INTRO. OF BILLS
Madam President, if you want four seconds, you will get them. Second.
I'm simply going by the Rules as we have them and which are being brought to my attention.
We can have this debate about the Rules that the majority of people voted for at Inauguration Day all day if we would choose. There's a motion on the floor, Madam President, and we're asking you to go by the rules. Do your job.
We're going by the rules as has been requested, and it does say that four people -- may I read the Rule?
"The previous question shall not be moved by less than five members and shall required the vote of a majority of all the Members of Council to sustain it. If the call for the previous question be sustained, the question shall be 030404 - STATED - INTRO. OF BILLS upon pending amendments and the main question in their order, and all incidental questions arising after a motion shall be decided whether on appeal or otherwise without debate." That is on . So I believe Councilman Mariano made the motion. Councilwoman Blackwell seconded the motion, so that's two.
Now we're voting on the question. 030404 - STATED - INTRO. OF BILLS
I'm sorry. Because there's been so much debate, there's been two motions on the floor. Is this the amended DiCicco motion?
I make a motion for the previous question to end debate.
And I think there's been so much debate, I am asking Councilman O'Neill to really specify exactly what his -
I'm sorry. We can't do that. I would just like people to know what it is that we're voting for.
We're not voting on the amendment, it's only on calling the question. 030404 - STATED - INTRO. OF BILLS
As to whether to end debate. We're not voting on any amendment that's been put on the floor.
The question is the motion to end debate. The Clerk will call the roll. THE
Debate is ended. We will now move on the amendment. O'Neill. Councilman O'Neill, so the people know exactly.
The amendment involves two paragraphs, the first and the last, and it consist of substituting Committee on Finance for the Committee of the Whole in each of those paragraphs.
All in favor of the adoption of the amendment will say aye, unless there is a roll call -
The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Tasco. 030404 - STATED - INTRO. OF BILLS
He's simply amending -- I think he's asking that the circulated resolution be amended.