COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA2 COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION3 Room 400, City Hall6 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Monday, November 28, 20117 1:20 p.m. PRESENT: COUNCILWOMAN JANNIE BLACKWELL, CHAIR10 COUNCILMAN WILLIAM K. GREENLEE COUNCILWOMAN BLONDELL REYNOLDS BROWN11 RESOLUTION 110158 - Resolution calling on the13 City Council Committee on Education to hold hearings on Prayer in Philadelphia Public14 Schools. RESOLUTION 110801 - Resolution calling for the City Council Committee on Education to hold16 Hearings on the School District of Philadelphia Plan to Close Certain Schools17 Facilities and to Make Grade Changes in Others.18 - - -20 2
Good2 afternoon. Let me thank everyone for3 being here. We will now convene the City4 Council Committee on Education. We ask5 other members of the Committee who may be6 in the building if they would come to the7 Chambers. As these are two resolutions,8 we will take the opportunity to begin.9 We will now ask the Clerk to10 read the number and title of both11 resolutions.12
Resolution 110158,13 resolution calling on the City Council14 Committee on Education to hold hearings15 on Prayer in Philadelphia Public Schools;16 and17 Resolution 110801, calling for18 the City Council Committee on Education19 to hold hearings on the School District20 of Philadelphia Plan to Close Certain21 School Facilities and to Make Grade22 Changes in Others.23
Thank24 you.25 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 First we will invite Dr. Nunery2 and whomever he would choose to accompany3 him forward, and while he is coming4 forward, we thank my colleague,5 Councilman William Greenlee, for being6 here, and certainly we want to make a7 short statement with regard to both8 resolutions.9 Resolution 110158, prayer in10 schools. Again, thank you for being here11 today. In calling for today's hearing on12 prayer in schools, we recognize that we13 cannot change federal law, and we14 appreciate all that the First Amendment15 to the Constitution, as interpreted by16 the U.S. Supreme Court, as it precludes17 the District from instituting or18 prohibiting prayer in schools. Our19 purpose is to begin a conversation with20 District officials, parents and teachers21 on ways to support students who choose to22 exercise their freedom to pray alone or23 in groups, as long as the activity is not24 disruptive and does not infringe on the25 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 rights of others.2 Prayer can promote more3 virtuous living and may have a positive4 impact on student behavior in schools.5 Parents encouraging students to not only6 pray for themselves but pray for others7 can cause students to think more of their8 fellow classmates and help them lead9 lives of thankfulness.10 We support students who have an11 interest in their faith, and we encourage12 all students to use their faith in their13 daily living and to keep a positive14 attitude and give their best in school to15 ensure a bright future.16 Thank you.17 Resolution 110801, School18 District facility closings and19 consolidations. School District20 officials have recommended to the School21 Reform Commission that nine City schools22 be closed, including Levering, Harrison,23 Sheppard, Drew, EM Stanton, Pepper Middle24 School, Fitzsimons High, Sheraton West25 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 Academy and Philadelphia High School for2 Business, with most closings at the end3 of the school year. In addition,4 District officials have recommended to5 the Commission that grade changes be made6 at other City schools.7 The School Reform Commission8 intends to vote on recommendations early9 next year, and, if implemented, this will10 be the single largest number of school11 closings in the District since 1981.12 While the District plans to13 host several community meetings to14 explain the recommendations and gather15 public input, a schedule of which is16 included in Councilpersons' packets and17 also on the table for anybody from the18 public who would like a list of those19 hearings and a list of those schools,20 today's hearing is to allow the public to21 voice their concerns about the District's22 plans to their elected representatives on23 City Council here in the people's24 building.25 6 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 Thank you very much.2 We'll now call on Dr. Nunery3 with regard to both resolutions, first4 Resolution 110158 on prayer in schools5 and then the Resolution 110801 on school6 facility closings.7 (Witnesses approached witness8 table.)9 COUNCILWOMAN BLACKWELL:10 Welcome. Thank you.11
Good afternoon,12 Councilwoman.13 Councilman Greenlee, good to14 see you again.15 As to the first resolution, we16 don't really have a particular comment.17 Obviously we have to abide by federal18 law. As a praying man, of course, I19 would love to see more children20 understand and get a moment of silence or21 some meditative moment where they can22 reflect on the day or what they're about23 to do in terms of how they go about24 school, but we don't have any formal25 7 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 position on this.2
I3 believe that when I asked about this4 several months ago, I was forwarded5 something. So you all have something in6 writing. I didn't bring it because I7 assumed that you would and that you would8 talk about the issue and present it today9 or else talk about it at least.10
Okay. Well,11 unfortunately, I don't have that in front12 of me. So my apologies to you. I don't13 have that in front of me right now.14
Then15 we would request that something be16 prepared and forwarded to this Committee17 so that we may make it available to18 anyone who asks, the schools, the parents19 such as are here today and the press and20 anyone else who would like to have a21 copy.22
Okay.23 COUNCILWOMAN BLACKWELL:24 Councilman Greenlee.25 8 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011
Thank2 you, Madam Chair.3 Good afternoon, everyone.4
Maybe6 just to kind of frame it a little bit.7 Could you just say, Dr. Nunery, what is8 permitted right now, if any, as far as9 prayer or silent meditation or anything10 like that or what has been specifically11 prohibited? Just to frame it a little12 bit, is what I'm trying to get at.13
I'm going to ask14 Penny Nixon, our Associate15 Superintendent, to respond and then also16 Rodney Oglesby, who is the head of17 Government Regulations, to respond.18
Maybe you21 better identify yourself for the22 stenographer.23
I'm Penny Nixon.24 I'm Associate Superintendent of Schools,25 9 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 the School District of Philadelphia.2 In terms of prayer, we don't3 have a formal policy where prayer is4 permitted in school.5
I'm just9 trying to get exactly where we're at10 right now. Okay. Thank you.11
I would only echo12 what Ms. Nixon just said. There's no13 formal policy in place.14
Well,16 I would hope you would go back. And I17 have it in my office. I hope you will go18 back and look at your records, because19 you do have something there. I got it20 from you.21
You23 talked about the very things I mentioned24 in my opening remarks, about a student's25 10 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 ability to quietly pray, pray at their2 desk or go someplace privately. All of3 that I got from you. So you all have it,4 because you sent it to me several months5 ago when we first introduced the6 resolution. So the School District has7 it. You know, today you're not8 mentioning it, but you have it.9
Well,11 Councilwoman, we'll commit to making sure12 you have that and we'll get it13 distributed, whatever that document is,14 but I think you've heard from us that15 there isn't any specific policy in place16 right now.17
Thank18 you very much. What we would like to do19 is with regard to this issue, we'd like20 you to wait and let us -- before we go21 into the other, have people who are here22 to testify on prayer in schools. So23 we'll ask you to let them speak, and then24 we'll come back to the District closings.25 11 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011
Thank4 you.5 Mr. Barry Morrison, Regional6 Director, Anti-Defamation League; Nancy7 Barenbear, Associate Director,8 Anti-Defamation League.9 (Witness approached witness10 table.)11
I have copies of16 my testimony for anybody who needs it.17 Good afternoon, Councilwoman18 Blackwell and Councilman Greenlee. My19 name is Barry Morrison. I'm the Regional20 Director of the Anti-Defamation League.21 Thank you for the opportunity to appear22 before the Committee today.23 The Anti-Defamation League, as24 you may know, is one of the nation's25 12 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 premier civil rights/human relations2 agencies fighting anti-Semitism and all3 forms of bigotry, defending democratic4 ideals and promoting civil rights for5 all.6 For almost 100 years, the7 Anti-Defamation League has been deeply8 committed to preserving and promoting9 religious rights and liberties for all10 Americans. We believe that the11 constitutionally mandated separation of12 church and state, as embodied in the13 First Amendment of our Constitution,14 safeguards religious liberties because it15 enables Americans to practice their16 various beliefs freely and boldly,17 without government interference,18 endorsement or support.19 We understand that this20 resolution that is being considered today21 was well-intentioned. However, the issue22 of prayer in our public schools is a23 well-settled matter of American law.24 Simply put, the Constitution prohibits25 13 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 school-sponsored or endorsed prayer in2 public schools, making this hearing3 unnecessary and potentially even4 misleading.5 Of course, students have the6 right to engage in voluntary individual7 prayer that is not coercive and does not8 substantially disrupt the school's9 educational mission and activities.10 Schools also have the right to teach11 about different religions in a12 comparative religion class. These are13 well-established principles. However,14 school and public officials cannot15 promote or encourage personal prayer or16 the use of one's faith in one's daily17 living. Any governmental or school18 promotion or endorsement of a student's19 private religious activity may be20 considered a violation of the21 Constitution.22 Given the body of well-settled23 law on the issue of prayer in public24 schools, there is no necessity for a25 14 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 hearing on the matter. In fact, we are2 concerned that this hearing may confuse3 and divide parents, teachers and students4 along religious lines.5 We recognize and fully support6 the desire of the resolution's sponsor7 and others to promote positive behaviors8 by students and compassion and concern on9 their part for others. This initiative,10 however, is not the way to achieve these11 admirable goals.12 Our religious diversity is best13 respected by refraining from14 intentionally entrenching religious ideas15 in the minds of children. Council16 Chambers and teachers' desks should not17 serve as pulpits for religious doctrine.18 Thank you.19
Thank20 you very much.21 Robin Schatz, the Jewish22 Federation.23 (Witness approached witness24 table.)25 15 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011
Good afternoon.2 My name is Robin Schatz and I am the3 Director of Government Affairs for the4 Jewish Federation of Greater5 Philadelphia, an organization whose6 mission is to mobilize financial and7 volunteer resources to address the8 community's most critical priorities in9 Philadelphia, Israel and overseas.10 Our community is diverse,11 ranging from Orthodox to secular, with12 equally diverse viewpoints. The13 organized Jewish community has long14 championed freedom of speech and15 religious expression. However, as a16 community, and particularly for those of17 us within the community relations field,18 we hold strong views regarding the19 separation of church and state and prayer20 in public schools.21 While we believe that City22 Council Resolution 110158 is23 well-intentioned, the resolution does24 raise concerns. First of all, there is25 16 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 no need for this resolution, as the First2 Amendment grants everyone the right to3 pray in school on a voluntary basis.4 Individual, silent and personal prayers5 have never been forbidden. Encouraging6 students to pray, however, is quite7 another matter. By encouraging children8 to pray for themselves and their fellow9 students, the schools are in fact10 endorsing prayer with the unintended11 consequences of making children of12 minority faiths or of no religious faith13 at all feel marginalized.14 At the 1995 Plenary Session of15 the Jewish Council for Public Affairs, a16 public policy umbrella organization17 representing 14 major national Jewish18 organizations and 125 local, independent19 community relations councils, a20 resolution was passed that in part stated21 its longstanding position in opposition22 to all forms of government-sponsored23 prayer in the public schools, including24 silent prayer and so-called silent25 17 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 meditation. The resolution stated that,2 quote, "The institutionalizing of prayer,3 in any form, spoken or silent, fosters4 what in essence is a religious exercise5 that in a public-school setting can have6 a coercive effect on a student. At7 bottom, government-sponsored prayer8 debases distinctive religious expression,9 vital to maintaining pluralistic10 religious beliefs."11 The Union for Reform Judaism12 and the Central Conference of American13 Rabbis have both passed resolutions14 opposing a prayer amendment to the United15 States Constitution. The URJ, quote,16 "cherishes the conviction that the17 maintenance and furtherance of religion18 are the responsibility of the synagogue,19 the church and the home, and not any20 agency of the government, including the21 public schools."22 Our public schools are for all23 children, regardless of religious24 affiliation. We applaud the desire of25 18 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 City Council to encourage positive2 behavior in our children in exercising3 compassion and understanding when dealing4 with others, but this should not be5 limited to just faith communities, nor is6 faith and prayer the only path to7 achieving these goals. The schools are8 supported by all taxpayers and,9 therefore, should be free of endorsed10 religious observance.11 I would like to close with this12 quote from President Ulysses S. Grant13 made in an 1875 speech in Des Moines,14 Iowa. Quote, "Leave the matter of15 religion to the family altar, the church16 and the private school, supported17 entirely by private contributions. Keep18 the church and state forever separate."19 Thank you.20
Thank21 you, Ms. Schatz. Nice to see you again.22
Thank25 19 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 you.2 Bill Ewing, American Civil3 Liberties Union. Next will be Karen4 Brown and then Ms. Bertha Simmons.5 (Witness approached witness6 table.)7 COUNCILWOMAN BLACKWELL:8 Mr. Ewing.9
Thank you, Madam10 Chairperson, Mr. Greenlee. My name is11 Bill Ewing. I'm a member of the Board of12 Directors of the Greater Philadelphia13 Chapter of the ACLU. I'm also a14 practicing Christian and, nevertheless,15 concerned about the substance of this16 resolution.17 I think it's important to point18 out, as the previous witnesses have19 pointed out, that prayer is allowed in20 school today. Anybody who wants to pray21 can pray, as long as it's not school22 sponsored. The idea that certain23 interest groups in the country have24 promulgated that by not allowing25 20 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 state-sponsored prayer we're throwing God2 out of school is just totally -- it3 disrespects God, is what it does.4 We cannot throw God out of the5 schools. God, by those of us who believe6 in God, is there everywhere and all the7 time, and to think that some people could8 throw God out of school is to give the9 forces of darkness too much power.10 Now, I asked to be distributed11 to you a copy of Thomas Jefferson's12 letter to the Danbury Baptist, which he13 wrote in 1802 when they had congratulated14 him upon his election to presidency, and15 in there he said, "Believing with you16 that religion is a matter which lies17 solely between man and his God" -- sorry18 about the sexist language, but that's the19 way it was then -- "that he owes account20 to none other for his faith or his21 worship, that the legitimate powers of22 government reach actions only and not23 opinions, I contemplate with sovereign24 reverence that act of the whole American25 21 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 people which declared that their2 legislature should make no law respecting3 an establishment of religion, or4 prohibiting the free exercise thereof,5 thus building a wall of separation6 between church and state."7 What we're talking about here,8 once we get school administration into9 some kind of supporting prayer, is we're10 substituting an arm of the state for the11 parents and the child, himself or12 herself, in deciding what kind of prayer13 to make. For instance, suppose a school14 decided we're going to support prayer15 that addresses -- uses the name Allah for16 God. This would upset a great many17 people and perhaps make others happy, but18 it is the wrong place to decide what kind19 of prayer should be offered, and it's a20 major problem with institutional prayer.21 Are the parents going to decide22 or is the teacher, the principal or City23 Council what prayers should be offered?24 It interjects the government between the25 22 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 parents and their children on the issue2 of religion.3 Even within Christianity -- and4 I also distributed to you a copy of the5 treaty with Tripoli, which was signed by6 John Adams and ratified by the Senate of7 the United States ten years after the8 Constitution was written and adopted, and9 it says, "The government of the United10 States of America is not, in any sense,11 founded on the Christian religion."12 So it was clear back then to13 those founders, and they were the people14 who were around when the country was15 founded, that this -- it's in Article 1116 of that treaty. But even if we put it17 aside and we said, Okay, Christian prayer18 could be allowed, but it can't be19 specific, well what Christian prayer?20 The prayer of those who don't believe in21 climate change? The prayer of those who22 believe that homosexuality is sin? Or23 the prayer of those other Christians like24 myself who believe that everybody should25 23 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 be traded equally regardless of their2 sexual orientation? Once you put the3 state in the position of encouraging4 prayer, it's a question of what kind of5 prayer, and once the state is deciding6 that, it is violating the freedom of7 conscience and the rights of parents to8 bring up their children.9 Thank you.10
Thank11 you very much. Thank you very much.12 Next we'll have Ms. Karen Brown13 and then we're going to have Ms. Bertha14 Simmons.15 (Witness approached witness16 table.)17 COUNCILWOMAN BLACKWELL:18 Welcome.19
I want to start off20 by applauding both you and Councilman21 Greenlee for taking this motion on. As a22 mother, a Catholic school teacher for 2423 years and a teacher who had the privilege24 of teaching in both private and public25 24 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 and charter schools, I believe that this2 motion should go through. And we are in3 a position now where we're saying that4 the state and the church should be5 separate, yet for years we have in the6 school calendar allowed for breaks for7 the Christian holidays as well as the8 Jewish holidays. It was part of the9 school calendar, so how can we say that10 the state and church are separate if11 we're taking breaks from education so12 that these children can worship their13 holidays?14 I believe with a lot of the15 private schools that have religion base16 in their studies closing and the charter17 schools and public schools becoming the18 option for parents in Philadelphia, if19 you add to that the problems that are in20 these schools apparently now, you're21 offering the families a way to reinforce22 positive attitudes towards their23 children. And as long as the bill is24 vague enough and is not subjective to25 25 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 certain guidelines where it has to be2 certain prayer or certain religion, I3 don't see any harm in allowing the4 children to have a positive5 reenforcement.6 We've already subjected a lot7 of issues into schools that shouldn't be8 there. We are promoting condoms and9 abstinence in the schools. In fact, our10 own Mayor did a contest where he allowed11 high school kids to design a cover for12 these condoms. If we're going to that13 level, how minuscule are we getting that14 we're putting this motion under a15 microscope?16 This is something positive that17 this City needs. And as a mother and an18 educator for 24 years, I applaud you and19 I support you, and my civic group, both20 of them, support you as well.21 Thank you.22
Thank23 you, Ms. Brown. Thank you. Question for24 you.25 26 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011
Thank3 you, Madam Chair.4 Good afternoon, Karen. How are5 you doing?6
I guess8 just to be on the record just so9 everything is clear, with all due10 respect, I agree with the other11 witnesses. I don't think we should be12 having prayer in schools. I'll be13 perfectly honest. I want to be clear on14 that.15
And17 obviously everybody has their opinion on18 that.19 I guess my only question is a20 very general one. We do have a legal21 problem here. Even if we promoted that,22 wouldn't we -- it does seem like it's23 probably against the law to promote24 prayer in the schools right now.25 27 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011
Councilman, but2 don't we have a legal problem -- why are3 we allowing the school calendar to go4 around religious holidays? Wasn't that a5 legal problem, too? When we're taking6 off for Christmas --7
No. How is it?10 Are we not saying that this religious11 belief is part of their school calendar?12 You would take off for Rosh Hashanah, Yom13 Kippur, Christmas and Easter. Are we not14 promoting religious faith in the calendar15 of the academic year? And it's a public16 school that does this. Charter schools17 do it as well.18 So, I mean, there's a fine gray19 line and I know you're crossing it.20 We're also promoting condoms, that the21 whole abstinent program in fact became22 something that the Mayor took on and made23 a major project out of. That's not the24 school's place either. They're25 28 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 somebody's children, and it's the2 parents' place to decide that for them.3 When we're promoting other4 issues, why are we fighting over this5 issue? This is something positive that6 our youth can use, because our youth is7 totally out of control.8
Again, I9 don't want to go into a long back and10 forth on this, but, as I said, I think11 the other issues are separate. I think12 there is a constitutional issue in there.13 I support certainly people14 having the discussion on this, and that's15 why I think this hearing --16
I support the24 motion. What I meant is, I support the25 29 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 motion.2
I just3 want to be clear, I don't necessarily4 agree on the issue. I agree that there5 should be a discussion, that's all.6
And I agree with7 that, too. I believe there should be a8 motion and all factors should be heard9 before a decision is made, and that's10 what I support.11
But --12 last thing. I'm sorry to take up the13 time. When you say a decision, I mean,14 let's face it, we can't make a decision15 one way or the other on this. We're just16 kind of airing the issue out here, I17 think. So I don't think -- even if18 everybody decided there should be prayer19 in schools, the City Council -- which20 wouldn't happen, but if it did, we21 couldn't change that anyway.22
It's also25 30 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 the law. We all have to operate under2 our own legal restrictions.3
You know what?4 Then where in the law does it allow for5 breaks for religious holidays?6
I think11 they're a little apples and oranges, but12 okay. I respect your opinion. Thank13 you.14
I was a Catholic15 school teacher, taught in a public school16 and I was off for the Jewish holidays.17 I'm Catholic, but I respected the fact18 that the Jewish beliefs needed their19 break to celebrate their holidays, and I20 get that. In fact, even in our21 government, we give -- we're allowed22 to -- I worked in the City. If you were23 Jewish, you were allowed to take off for24 Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur and it was25 31 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 not part of your vacation, because we're2 respecting the fact that they have a3 religious belief. So why can't we4 respect the fact that the families would5 like their children to have a religious6 belief that goes with them to school?7 Just because they can't afford to put8 them into a school that celebrates their9 religious beliefs in this economy, they10 should be able to carry those beliefs11 with them and their children when they go12 to school, and that's what I am glad this13 motion is having.14
All15 right. We have a little difference of16 opinion. Okay. Thank you.17
Thank18 you, Ms. Brown. Thank you.19 Ms. Bertha Simmons.20 (Witness approached witness21 table.)22
Thank23 you for coming and being here,24 Ms. Simmons.25 32 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011
Especially to my6 daughter, Jannie, and her companion7 that's there beside her. So glad to see8 you two sitting there talking about9 prayer in school, because I hope you all10 had prayer in school. I know Jannie did,11 because I raised her with prayer in12 school.13 We all need prayer in school.14 We all need prayer at home. Pray every15 night before you go to bed. Wake up the16 next morning and thank the Lord for17 waking up to let you see another day.18 How do you think you are living? You're19 not living by yourself. There's a God up20 above that watches over you morning, noon21 and night. I know about it.22 When I went to school, we23 didn't just have a prayer just for one24 person. Everybody prayed their own25 33 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 little prayer. We had a separate area.2 Everybody went and prayed their own3 prayer. I do not know how you pray your4 prayer, you might not know how I pray5 mine, but everybody went to school and6 prayed a prayer. It wasn't but two7 minutes or three minutes. Then we went8 into the classroom and had class.9 Prayer need to be everywhere,10 everybody, in your home. I'll be on the11 bus sometime and being praying and12 forgetting my stop. I have to go to the13 next stop and get off, because I'm14 praying for the kids who I meet on the15 street, who I need to pray for. I pray16 for all color people. I wish my momma17 brought me up to pray and do for18 everybody regardless of who they are,19 where they are. They need prayer.20 The kids I see in the street,21 they'll stop me in church and says,22 Nobody never speak to me. You don't have23 to have a whole conversation. Wave to24 the kids and say, How are you today?25 34 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 The kids need that2 encouragement. Because I talk to them3 everywhere. I'm down here two or three4 times a week. I'm on Broad Street, on5 the buses. I was raised up to meet,6 greet and talk with all nationality of7 people.8 I used to raise babies. I was9 a nurse in JFK Hospital. That's what10 motivate me to take care of everybody.11 So everybody in here, please12 let us get the prayer back in school.13 They don't have to have it in the14 classroom. Have a little area where15 everybody can go in and say their little16 separate prayer. That way, they'll be17 encouraged. They'll keep their kids18 encouraged. They'll keep their own19 family encouraged. And don't forget,20 prayer, prayer is the one that's going to21 bring you through, because if you don't22 have prayer, how would you think you23 would exist if you don't have something24 to back you up, something on your mind to25 35 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 keep you motivated? Because I tell all2 of you, I want you to pray, because I3 tell you, I don't want no trouble at the4 river.5
Amen.6 Thank you, Ms. Simmons.7 That's our Mother Simmons, and8 she's right. She was there. She helped9 raise us all, and we did have prayers in10 school, and I think it made me a better11 person. I thank God every day.12 So we thank you for your13 comments. We thank you for being here.14 We thank you for being the impetus behind15 us introducing this resolution.16 And I say to all of you who are17 here, would you like to see Mother18 Simmons at your office three days, four19 days a week saying, What about this20 resolution on prayer in schools?21
That's23 right. Yes, ma'am.24 But we love her and we're25 36 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 grateful to have the discussion.2
Thank4 you.5 We have Councilwoman Blondell6 Reynolds Brown who is here.7 Now we're going to ask -- thank8 you all for the discussion on the issue.9 We're now going to resume our testimony10 with regard to Resolution 110801 on11 school closing and consolidation.12 Dr. Nunery, would you and your13 team come back forward. Thank you.14 (Witnesses approached witness15 table.)16
And20 all of you know I'm a better person21 because of Mom Simmons, because she's in22 my life. We thank her.23 Dr. Nunery.24
Thank you,25 37 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 Councilwoman. Again, my name is Leroy2 Nunery. I'm Acting Superintendent and3 CEO of the School District of4 Philadelphia. 21 We want to thank City Council22 particularly for the continued support23 and interest in our public schools, and24 in my tenure as Deputy Superintendent and25 38 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 7 In addition, I want to8 acknowledge Mayor Nutter's call for an9 Education Accountability Agreement and10 say that we are grateful for the City's11 expressed concern and request for greater12 involvement. We view ongoing, heightened13 levels of accountability and transparency14 as positive and necessary steps to fiscal15 health and public trust. As you know,16 this Education Accountability Agreement17 was authorized by the School Reform18 Commission in June 2011, and since the19 signing of that agreement, the State, the20 City, the School Reform Commission,21 District staff and our two executive22 advisors have quickly gotten to work to23 review the budget, establish a working24 group to suggest strategies to achieve25 39 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 5 We are here today to provide6 members of Council with an overview of7 our activities related to the Facilities8 Master Plan. You will recall that one of9 the major initiatives under Imagine 2014,10 the District's existing plan, called for11 the creation of a comprehensive,12 expandable and adaptable five-year13 facilities planning model for the14 District. 20 The Facilities Master Plan21 creates a framework to allow the District22 to achieve the following. There are five23 key points. First is to standardize24 grade configuration to improve K to 1225 40 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 18 Over the last year, the School19 District, including a team of consultants20 led by URS Corporation, examined many21 factors, including building conditions,22 enrollment history, capacity and23 utilization, location of specialized24 academic programs and demographic trends,25 41 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 2 On November 2nd, 2011, the School3 District released the Facilities Master4 Plan publicly and announced a list of5 proposed actions to be implemented over6 the next two years. These proposed7 actions included grade configurations or8 reconfigurations, surplus property to be9 listed for sale -- there are existing10 eight properties and there will be others11 listed for sale -- and some school12 closures. 19 We are continuing our20 commitment to engage the public in21 decision-making processes. 25 42 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 These meetings will continue over the2 next three months prior to the School3 Reform Commission taking action by spring4 2012. We acknowledge and we recognize5 that these proposed actions and these6 changes, particularly school closings,7 are difficult and greatly impact the8 lives of our parents, our students and9 school staffs. We also recognize that10 schools play an enormous role in our11 communities. 22 First, beginning in July of23 2010, we issued a request for proposals24 seeking a consultant to assist with the25 43 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 creation and implementation of a2 Facilities Master Plan. Eight firms3 responded, and URS Corporation, along4 with its team of sub-consultants, was5 selected as the Facilities Master Plan6 Program Manager. 22 In October 2010, District staff23 and School Reform Commission spoke with24 members of the School Board and senior25 44 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 leadership teams in Kansas City and in2 Pittsburgh to learn about their3 rightsizing efforts. 12 The District announced publicly13 on November 10th, 2010, roughly a year14 ago, the launch of the plan. The15 presentation covered the rationale for16 developing a long-range plan and the need17 to right-size facilities to support our18 instructional reforms.
Immediately19 following this announcement, the District20 initiated a year-long, multi-phased round21 of community meetings to share data and22 inform stakeholders about the purpose of23 our work. In total, the District24 completed 23 meetings engaging over 1,40025 45 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 participants, and those were just the2 formal meetings. 4 Following the completion of5 tasks under Phase I, the SRC and the6 District established a state of core7 planning principles, planning assumptions8 and data inputs to guide the creation of9 rightsizing options. Moreover, an10 internal executive committee was formed11 to provide the educational framework and12 direction for a long-range plan. 24 In April 2011, just a few25 46 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 3 Additionally, we announced immediate4 rightsizing actions to be implemented for5 the 2011-'12 academic year, this current6 year. Finally, the School Reform7 Commission initiated a period for public8 comment on a newly adaptive -- newly9 created Adaptive Reuse Policy and10 Facilities Rightsizing Policy. Now, the11 Adaptive Reuse Policy will govern the12 process for any properties that are13 closed and listed for sale under the14 Facilities Master Plan. And it's in15 place. It also identified three tiers of16 potential users. 22 The Facilities Rightsizing23 Policy expanded on the original policy24 that we had by increasing the number of25 47 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 and type of rightsizing actions that the2 District could implement, specifying3 rightsizing criteria and establishing a4 timeline for those actions. 7 Finally, as our long-range8 planning process continues, we look9 for -- we continue to look for10 opportunities to maximize effectiveness,11 create new partnerships, refine our12 support system so as to provide13 stakeholders with the best service and14 the most useful information possible. In15 short, everything that we've done is16 posted online at our website. 23 Thank you again for the24 opportunity to submit written testimony,25 48 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 3
Thank4 you very much.5 This Adaptive Reuse Policy, as6 you know, and I'm sure especially7 District Councilpeople are getting calls8 as well, we have -- in fact, I was in a9 meeting just today about Drew School10 that's in my area, and we have some11 people who have been meeting with Drexel12 University, we have other people who --13 I've had two or three plans submitted to14 me for that structure.15 So the Adaptive Reuse Policy16 that includes submitting an RFP or RFQ,17 can you tell us a little bit about that,18 what it is, when people can apply and how19 we should access that system and any20 necessary meetings with regard to these21 buildings, as well as West Philly High22 School. I've had people asking for that23 since before it closed. So I have a lot24 of interest in those in my district.25 49 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011
The policy is2 again on our website, and we can give you3 copies of it. We have hard copies here.4 I'm going to talk a little bit about the,5 if you will, the general issues around6 the policy, but have Danielle Floyd talk7 more about some of the specifics.8 But essentially what we didn't9 have in the past, Councilwoman, was a10 vigorous process which would essentially11 allow anybody interested in a Drew or12 West Philly or Gillespie or any of the13 buildings that have been closed to come14 forward, put a formal written proposal on15 the table and have that considered as16 part of a systemic decision-making17 process, and that's really important.18 We're the only seller of school buildings19 in town other than maybe the Archdiocese20 if they decide to close and sell. The21 capital markets right now are not in22 terrific shape, so, quite frankly,23 considering proposals, we'll have to take24 into account the ability for somebody to25 50 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 afford to do what they claim to do, but2 also to make sure that it fits at least3 one of what we think are three4 constructive uses so that these buildings5 don't sit dormant, boarded up and6 vandalized over time.7 The first tier are educational8 users, and it can cover any number of9 organizations, from institutions of10 higher education, charter schools,11 alternative schools, adult education.12 The second tier would be13 community development corporations or14 community organizations which may see a15 building as an asset that they can16 activate for their particular purpose.17 And the third would be private18 developers.19 So we are also hearing from a20 number of people in any one of those21 categories. It is totally feasible that22 a winning proposal could include all23 three of those categories. Assume, for24 example, a university that pulls private25 51 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 developers in with community groups and2 decides to repurpose a building that we3 no longer need because of excess4 capacity.5 So we think there are a lot of6 opportunities and combinations that can7 come out of this process, all for the8 good of making sure these buildings don't9 go dark and just become dormant.10 I'm going to turn to Danielle11 Floyd for more detail on this and then12 we'll respond to any other questions.13
18 To answer your question,19 Councilwoman, where we are in the process20 and what are the next steps that need to21 be taken, as you recall, in April we22 announced eight properties that we23 intended to list for sale, and in24 November we announced an additional four25 52 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 that we intend to move forward with2 listing for sale. 9 In addition, we have identified10 brokers to represent the School District11 for each one of these properties. We12 went through a competitive solicitation13 process to identify a group of brokers to14 work with the School District on15 successful -- on being able to attract16 potential buyers and ushering members of17 the public, whether it be a community18 organization, private developers, through19 the process. 21 So where we are right now is to22 finalize the request for qualifications23 so that a member in one of these24 different tiers of users are able to fill25 53 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 out a very quick application. 19 And I guess I would say the20 last piece is really about identifying21 these RFP evaluation committees. The22 policy was set up in a way that it23 comprised members of the School District,24 a representative from the Council -- a25 54 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 representative from someone on City2 Council if the property is within their3 councilmanic district, a representative4 from the City Planning Commission. 16 So the RFQ process, we're17 looking to finalize that and have it18 released after the holidays, and then the19 recruitment and formation of the RFP20 evaluation committees would also happen21 in parallel. I think we are looking --22 and we'll continue to work with the City23 as well as members of Council -- on24 trying to identify who are those25 55 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 community organizations that are active2 in neighborhoods that want to be involved3 and engaged in what may be a very4 demanding process and time-consuming5 process. And I will also note that one6 of the other pieces that we included,7 because we understand that people who8 live in neighborhoods may not be able to9 participate at this deep of a level, but10 still have an interest and still want to11 know what's going on and be informed,12 that the District is committing to13 holding a public meeting in the area once14 we know who the qualified users are and15 have more formal proposals so that these16 users or team of users can make their17 presentation or pitch, for lack of a18 better term, to the general community and19 have an opportunity to engage in20 questions, very similar to what happened21 with the renaissance schools process22 where the different providers were able23 to come out, talk about their strengths24 and what they were looking to do with the25 56 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 3
Did4 you say that the appraisals were already5 done for the first eight?6
That's correct.7 For eight. And we will be moving forward8 with doing the four. So the old West9 Philadelphia High School still needs to10 be appraised. I'm trying to remember the11 other three that we listed for sale. The12 old Willard School still needs to be13 appraised and -- I apologize. I'm14 blanking on the other two. But those15 appraisals will be underway very shortly.16 We have a group of appraisers that have17 been pre-qualified to do that work.18
Now,19 you said that this committee that hears,20 an RFP will be issued and that will be21 returned to a committee consisting of a22 Council district representative for the23 closed property, City Planning, community24 organization. And how large will that25 57 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 group be?2
We're anticipating3 at a minimum nine members. I realize4 that in certain parts of the City it5 could be larger or depending on the6 property it could be larger. We tried to7 structure at least the balance of the8 committees to be about 30 percent School9 District employees and 60 percent members10 of the outside larger community.11
And, Councilwoman,12 if I may, part of the reason we're going13 through this obviously is to make sure14 each proposal as it comes in, after it's15 gone through a request for quotation or16 request for interest, if you will, then17 gets to RFP, that it's vetted by people18 who could be most directly affected by it19 or who know the neighborhoods better than20 we would at 440, but also to make sure21 that it's a sound proposal. What you22 don't want is to go through months and23 months of work and then find out that24 either, again, the financing can't be25 58 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 done -- we already have that experience2 with one building that we've sold.3 Somebody was waiting for New Market Tax4 Credits, which didn't materialize, and5 now you have to restructure the entire6 deal.7 So this is really important8 that we do it methodically. This is9 also, quite frankly, a corollary to what10 we've been saying from the very start and11 what the Pew Charitable Trust said, in12 that for individuals who expect that by13 just closing buildings, you can14 immediately sell them and turn them into15 cash, monetize the assets, may not be as16 quick or as swift as they would expect.17 These are long deals that have long18 cycles. They could take as much as two19 years in order to really get to closure.20 You've got zoning issues. You've got all21 kinds of other permissions that have to22 be allowed. A number of the buildings,23 they would have to be remediated for one24 particular issue or another. It could be25 59 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 asbestos. It could be lead paint.2 So what we're trying to do here3 is be as methodical as possible, as4 careful as possible, but also5 progressive. And what we would need from6 City Councilmembers, as we get to each7 particular concept, is recommendations8 for representatives from civic or9 community groups that Councilmembers feel10 really can stand up to this kind of work.11 They're doing it based on what they can12 bring to the table.13
Thank16 you, Madam Chair.17 Good afternoon, everyone,18 again.19
Doctor, I22 just want to touch on just generally --23 first of all, I want to acknowledge all24 the thoroughness you're trying to have on25 60 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 all these hearings. I mean, it seems2 just looking at the list here that you're3 touching almost every part of the City,4 and I know that's important.5 Now, just judging by -- I was6 not there, but at the reports, news7 reports I saw on the first hearing you8 had, certainly the issue -- and this9 isn't surprising -- of school closings10 probably, it took up a lot of the time.11 And I know nobody -- or a lot of people12 don't want their school closed, but you13 guys have tough decisions to make. I14 guess just generally -- and I'm not15 talking about one particular school16 here -- is there some -- how would I call17 it -- issues or items that people can18 raise that might particularly be19 cognizant in this? Because rather than20 saying, I like my school, don't close it,21 you know. Like, for example, I know at22 Fitzsimons they raised some safety issues23 of transfers to Strawberry Mansion and24 that kind of thing.25 61 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 So I'm just wondering, are2 there particular things that either you3 heard at the first meeting or that you4 have in mind that might be particularly5 important for people to raise?6
I think we can tag7 team. Go ahead and jump in and I'll8 follow you and, Penny, you can jump in.9
16 In terms of things that get17 brought up at the community meetings that18 help inform the work that we -- so we19 have a lot of hard data. We have20 information on enrollment. We have21 information on students who live in the22 boundary and attend the school. We have23 information on the number of students who24 attend charter schools, but we know what25 62 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 their neighborhood schools are. We have2 information on building condition and3 what the needs are in those particular4 facilities. And I do think that at the5 first meeting that we had, there were6 certainly -- one of the concerns that was7 particularly raised was about the8 dynamics in terms of the changing of the9 neighborhood, and one of the things that10 we are seeing and we saw in our data, but11 also it was nice to see that confirmed12 with members of the public who decided to13 attend, was that it was a neighborhood14 where historically and traditionally we15 had seen a lot of flight from the16 neighborhood schools and over the last17 several years, you're now starting to see18 parents get much more engaged in their19 neighborhood public schools, especially20 at the elementary school level. So we're21 seeing already right now that we're going22 to need to make some adjustments and23 space for neighborhood children, for24 instance, to be in those particular25 63 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 11 And I think the other piece12 that came up, at least speaking13 specifically about the first meeting, was14 that the School District has not gone15 through a progressive process around16 looking at its boundaries and looking at17 how the boundaries are drawn to either18 help schools with enrollment or not help19 schools with enrollment. And that was20 one of the particular concerns that was21 raised in the meeting that we had two22 Saturdays ago, was, Well, if you look at23 some of the boundaries here, if you were24 to move a couple this way and move a25 64 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 little bit this way, that might actually2 help all of us out. At the end of the3 day -- and one of the pieces of4 information we shared, though, is that5 the enrollment declines that we have seen6 in some of our schools are staggering and7 they are significant, and having a school8 of 180 students or 160 students9 educationally is difficult, financially10 is very difficult. You know, schools11 that have half empty still have full-time12 costs. And so part of it is, we have to13 be better financial stewards, but we also14 I think -- one of our guiding principles15 in this was looking at the other16 educational options available and being17 able to say we're providing equal to or18 better than what you currently have,19 whether it's on the facilities side,20 program side or with having more students21 in the building, it yields a full-time22 art teacher or it yields you additional23 services that you wouldn't otherwise be24 able to afford. It gives you the25 65 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 3 So issues of safety I think are4 definitely going to be important and I5 know that they will be raised. I think6 we're trying to look at and come from a7 different perspective to say what can we8 do and how can we co-plan, District,9 parents, teachers, community members, so10 that this is successful. I don't think11 we went about this trying to hurt people12 in the process, but really think and be13 mindful of, yes, we understand that there14 are community issues and dynamics that15 are going on here, but at the end of the16 day, having 800 students or a thousand17 students in a high school means18 something. It means something in terms19 of education. It means something in20 terms of program offerings. So when you21 think about the things that students are22 afforded, when you have that economy of23 scale, yes, you got to kind of go through24 this very difficult process in order to25 66 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 2
I'd add something3 else. I mean, we're not saying it, but4 this is about Philadelphia at its core,5 what neighborhoods mix or don't mix. So6 what you hear about Fitzsimons closing7 and kids going to Strawberry Mansion and8 an article gets written and calls out the9 potential for -- if not gang, I'll say10 some activity amongst the youth, we've11 got to solve the problems of education,12 but we can't solve everything from the13 School District's perspective. We need14 City Councilmembers. We need the Police15 Department. We need community groups to16 understand, look, we can -- certain17 things, Councilman -- what I heard you18 ask is what will change our mind, and19 there are certain things that would20 influence a final decision, like21 transportation. You don't want kids22 going on three buses in order to get to23 school. That means they probably won't24 go or they'll leave the District. And25 67 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 quite frankly, part of what we've got to2 do is shrink excess capacity not only by3 getting rid of buildings that are4 inoperable, but also bringing kids back5 into school. So career and technical6 education for me is a huge, huge issue.7 That's what you'll hear about more from8 me and from us over time, a high school9 plan that is robust that actually invites10 children back to fill those seats, STEM11 education.12 But ultimately people want to13 protect what they have, and we get that.14 That's also why the speed of closure is15 really important. It's the debate of the16 time. How fast you go is going to be17 influenced by how much change you can18 afford to make. And we're now doing19 calculations on what the actual costs are20 for filling an empty seat, and that means21 a fair amount of dollars per building22 just to get a building educationally23 ready. I think that's the term we're24 generally using.25 68 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 So this is complicated2 calculus, and that's why people get3 upset, but we are going to try to explain4 more and more about the technical aspects5 of it.6
I7 appreciate that. By the way, just to be8 clear, I'm not criticizing this list or9 anything like that. And I guess just to10 amend your statement a little bit, I11 wouldn't say what would change your mind12 but what could change your mind.13
That may15 be the best way to say it. Because I16 know -- I guess we all know -- that17 school closings is always an emotional18 issue. Even if all the criteria makes19 sense, if it's your child in the school,20 you don't want to see the school close21 because the child may be -- your child22 may be doing well or is happy there.23 So I just throw that out there,24 because I know that's going to be -- and25 69 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 those same folks will probably come back2 to folks like us saying what can we do to3 help. So I'm just trying to figure out4 what would be like the real issues that5 people need to really address at these6 hearings rather than just saying, I don't7 want my school closed, because my kid8 likes it, you know.9
Might10 I note as well that then we have the11 opposite end of that spectrum with a12 school like Penn Alexander that everybody13 wants. You have twice as many people14 wanting to apply as can attend.15
Just for16 the record, I've lost three committee17 people who moved from my neighborhood to18 yours so they can go to Penn Alexander.19
I think the only20 other thing that I would like to add is21 that the one question that parents should22 always ask is about the academic program23 of the school that they would move to.24 So the questions are -- Danielle already25 70 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 stated that we're trying to offer2 something that's equal to or better, and3 I think parents need to know what is4 that, so that if my school closes and I5 move to another school, what academic6 programs are you offering my child. And7 I think that's the key question, because8 this is about the quality of academic9 programs.10 And the other thing I want to11 add is that the School District is12 currently engaged in enhancing our core13 curriculum document so that our goal is14 for all of our schools to have robust and15 rigorous academic curriculum that16 prepares kids for college and career. So17 you'll hear more from us about what we18 call college and career-going anchors,19 and what we're really doing is, we're20 going to be able to communicate to the21 public clearly that this is how we define22 success in the School District of23 Philadelphia, and the definition will be24 based around what does it take to really25 71 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 get a kid to a very competitive2 university. And what we're working on3 now is really back-mapping our curriculum4 from kindergarten all the way to 12th5 grade and we'll have indicators that6 ensure that our kids are on track for7 college and career. And all of this will8 sort of tie in to the Facilities Master9 Plan as well.10 So that's the most important11 thing, the quality of the curriculum.12
Thank13 you. I appreciate that.14 Thank you, Madam Chair.15
And16 how are we finding that the new academies17 we've started -- we started some this18 year, like at Audenried and a few places.19 How are we finding that they are working20 out?21
Well, the three22 new promise academies at Martin Luther23 King, West Philadelphia High School and24 Germantown High School are doing okay.25 72 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 They're not doing great yet, and part of2 the reason is, A, we went through a lot3 in terms of whether or not to go with4 more or fewer. So a lot of decisions had5 to be made. But, B, high schools -- and6 this is part of the argument for a7 methodical approach. It doesn't mean you8 go slow, it just means that you think9 about it more carefully. High schools10 are so much harder to turn around.11 That's why there are very few turnaround12 organizations around the country that13 take high schools on. It's a unique14 animal. When you get kids who are older,15 you've got a lot more programming. They16 are more expensive to run.17 So I think maybe, Penny, you18 want to address some of the specifics.19 But we think we're making20 progress there, and we're trying to21 solidify the promise academy model so22 that it becomes more appealing for23 parents when they decide, you know what,24 I'll keep my kid in Philly schools, but25 73 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 which one. And we want them to2 understand that these promise academies3 are, as we released the other day, as4 competitive with charter schools as many5 think charter schools can be.6 So you want to address that.7
I think you8 included everything.9 I think in light of the budget10 deficit, we're only running a partial11 model at the new school, so it's not a12 full model. And also with the lawsuit13 with the PFT, the timeframe got pushed14 back a lot, so they weren't able to plan15 and prepare like the promise academies16 did in the previous years.17 So I will echo Lee that they're18 just doing okay. There's still much work19 to be done. We're hoping that we can20 move toward a full model for those21 schools next year hopefully, if the22 budget allows.23 COUNCILWOMAN BLACKWELL:24 Councilwoman Blondell Reynolds Brown.25 74 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011
Thank you,2 Madam Chairwoman.3 Good afternoon, everyone.4
My notes6 and questions are all over the place, so7 you'll have to forgive me.8 First let me start with saying9 that many members of Council fully10 recognize the enormity of the task before11 you. It is one of those -- it's not even12 a project. It's an initiative that you13 have to slow walk every single step of14 the way and then examine each step that15 you take along that walk.16 Secondly, I think it's17 brilliant that you have decided to do18 what you call calculate the cost to fill19 an empty seat. I've never heard that20 before, but what I can think is that will21 help to defend or justify why you ask for22 X number of dollars going forward.23 Because if that number gets huge, then24 it's an executive manager who says we25 75 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 have to look at how we shift the2 paradigm. So I understand that. I join3 the members on Council who get that.4 Let's back up to this process5 around the RFP. A prevailing interest of6 members of Council is ensuring that all7 entrepreneurial, small business activity8 efforts reflect the look of the City and9 at every single step of the way. And10 Councilman Goode, who is a member of this11 Committee, is not here, but I can tell12 you we sing a chorus when it comes to13 making sure that women and people of14 color are getting a fair shake.15 So when it comes to appraisers16 and brokers, what does the composition of17 that mix look like?18
When the -- we did19 a competitive solicitation process for20 both the brokers and appraisers. They21 were required to have M/WBE22 participation. The brokers were required23 to speak for the M/WBE participation. So24 each one of them -- one is 100 percent25 76 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 M/WBE and the other four brokers are 302 percent M/WBE participation. So most of3 them are partnerships, with the exception4 of Concordis Key Advisors, which is 1005 percent M/WBE. Centara I know is6 partnered up with an organization. So7 each one of them had to identify an8 M/WBE -- a woman-owned business or9 minority-owned business, our brokers, for10 listing -- to represent the School11 District for listing of properties.12 On the appraisers, I believe we13 have one -- I know we have one14 woman-owned business, Eileen Lynn, who15 does appraisals, who is working with us,16 and then we have two others. I'm17 blanking right now on their names. I18 apologize. Richard Owens, I know Owens19 and Lukens. Lukens is the other20 appraiser that was approved through our21 process.22
Well, your23 answer reflects the fact that that was24 factored in as a part of this assessment25 77 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 gathering information process.2
And this4 is not a requirement, but we'd like to5 make sure that Philadelphia residents who6 pay Philadelphia taxes get opportunities.7 So what's the mix in terms of whether or8 not they are Philadelphia-based companies9 or no?10
But I think it's16 pretty high. If you look at Centara,17 Concordis, they're -- we should be in18 pretty high percentage. And even in19 terms of the firm that -- URS with its20 sub-consultants, we have McKissock and21 McKissock involved, Portfolio Associates.22
So it's been a24 very conscious effort to make sure that25 78 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 the diversity -- and, actually, I think,2 Councilwoman, it's yielded some3 interesting benefits, because when we go4 out to the public hearings for the public5 sessions, you hear something different6 than what you otherwise might hear.7 Portfolio Associates run by their CEO,8 Beverly Harper, has been through this9 drill before.10
For 35 years. So13 when she listens in, she hears something,14 she captures it differently and relays it15 back. So I think we've benefited from16 having her perspective and her17 experience.18
All right,19 then. So that was the question around20 the mix.21 You said that the RFQ process22 will be released or finished after the23 holidays?24
Released,2 okay.3 With regards to the future use4 of the buildings and the priorities you5 stipulated - educational use, CDCs and6 private developers - I'm just curious, is7 there any -- have you given any thought8 to possibly the role of the Philadelphia9 Planning Commission, which has a duty to10 stay on top of trends and the like so11 that they can at least weigh in on what12 you're doing?13
Yes, we have. For14 the first eight properties that we15 decided to list for sale, the community16 planners from CPC actually gave us an17 analysis of what their zoning was, if18 they were on the Historical Registry,19 whether it was for Philadelphia or20 national. And then one of the things21 that they also identified or made22 recommendations to say is, this is a23 community, for instance, that's lacking24 in green space or lacking in access to25 80 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 fresh fruits and vegetables, like a2 supermarket would make sense to have3 mixed retail here, or this is a heavy4 residential area, so having some type of5 recreational space would make sense as6 part of looking at long-range plan for7 that particular planning district that8 the community planners are looking at.9 They did give us like a one-page synopsis10 on what currently exists and what's11 missing --12
-- to help advise14 and us thinking about what we need to do.15
I'm16 pleased to hear that. So that you have17 different systems talking to each other.18
Right. And we're20 also, Councilwoman, talking to the21 Mayor's Office, Parks and Rec, the Trust22 for Public Lands, the Water Department --23
PWD on storm water24 management.25 81 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011
On storm water2 management around Green 2015, because we3 think -- in fact, we just won a LEED4 Platinum -- a Silver award, I'm sorry, a5 Silver award for Willard School just the6 other day, because now we're addressing7 issues of how storm water affects -- our8 buildings affects storm water runoff and9 all of that.10 I think what we're trying to11 aim for is to make these schools better,12 not only because of what's inside in13 terms of education, but better facilities14 that last for a long time.15
So that an average18 age of 65, 68 years, there's a lot inside19 those current buildings that needs to be20 fixed and addressed.21
So we think this23 is a great way to go about it to plan24 ahead.25 82 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011
It's a2 huge undertaking.3 Along the same lines, I've4 learned as a result of this recent5 census; in particular, paying attention6 to the district of Councilwoman7 Quinones-Sanchez, that populations are8 growing in certain ways as well. One of9 them is seniors. Now, we know that10 Pennsylvania is, what, number two when it11 comes to seniors, and we know -- well,12 what I've learned is that there is not13 enough housing for seniors. And so the14 question is, has the thought of senior15 housing -- when you think of the purposes16 and you mention private developers,17 within that category have you considered18 a subcategory of here are where our needs19 are for special populations? Seniors is20 one. Housing for victims of domestic21 violence is another. And those are the22 two that come to mind as I listen to23 residents and citizens who come to us24 throughout the year where there's simply25 83 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 not enough beds in those two particular2 categories.3
We think that --4 and that's actually that Tier 2 we talked5 about, community and non-profit users,6 but also Tier 3, private and commercial7 developers. There may be a marriage8 there. If somebody looks at a structure9 and they think that they can do the10 conversion or the rehabilitation into11 appropriate legal senior housing, that we12 are all -- we're all ears for that. I13 think the challenge for anybody taking14 over an old school building, though, are15 the conversion costs, because you have to16 do inside.17 The Life Building in West18 Philly is a perfect example.19 Councilwoman Blackwell, as you know how20 long that sat dormant when I was at Penn,21 because it takes a while to put the right22 ramping in, the right lighting, all the23 emergency --24
To meet25 84 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 codes.2
To meet codes.3 But we're also open to that, because I4 think in areas that we've seen some5 emptying out, there's an opportunity to6 activate communities if there are the7 right leaders to take charge on that.8
Indeed.9 Indeed. So that covers the planning10 part.11 Are there other municipalities12 you may have looked at that are at the13 same place in terms of reduction in14 student population; therefore, have had15 to figure out how they work smarter with16 existing infrastructure that can be used17 or looked upon as models of best18 practices, municipalities who got it19 right?20
That's a very good21 question, because one of the things that22 we wanted -- we asked that very question23 before we started on this process,24 because -- to the credit of our SRC, you25 85 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 have sort of two cohorts when you make a2 decision around closure. You have3 families that you need to deal with in4 terms of reassignments, but then you have5 people who live in that neighborhood and6 are going to have a question about, Well,7 what are you doing when this building is8 closed, because I got to look out my9 window and look at it when it's10 shuddered.11 When we talked to some of the12 other school districts that had gone13 through a downsizing process, there's14 been mixed results on what they've been15 able to do. So, for instance, Kansas16 City did not have sort of an adaptive17 reuse policy or repurposing policy or18 process when they went through -- they19 closed about 28 schools two years ago.20 They are now working on identifying --21 actually asked us for a copy of our22 Adaptive Reuse Policy to start to put in23 place for them. They've identified a24 repurposer to start to help market their25 86 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 properties. And, again, they're in a2 very similar situation to us, growth in3 charter schools, but the difference there4 is that their charter schools can grow in5 the suburbs, so a lot of them are looking6 to revitalize or reopen school buildings7 in the city because they have greater8 flexibility on location.9
They closed 2812 schools in one year. One year they13 closed 28. Pittsburgh I believe closed14 12 or 13 in one year, and they had15 moderate success in reuse. There's still16 a number of properties that they own17 and -- that they have to own and maintain18 that they haven't been able and19 successful with repurposing for other20 purposes -- repurposing.21 I think Washington, DC was22 another district that we talked to. It's23 a little bit different there, because the24 city manages school district property,25 87 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 not -- the school district doesn't have2 to be responsible for repurposing and3 relocation or thinking about potential4 reuse. That's at the jurisdiction of the5 Mayor and members of Council on what6 happens with different district7 facilities.8 So it's been difficult to9 really see other school districts,10 especially large urban school districts,11 who have had models of best practice that12 we could have referred to or used to help13 inform the work that we were doing.14 I think one of the criticisms15 that we typically got from members of the16 public was that we allow fair-market17 value to drive our decisions around reuse18 and the highest -- whoever the highest19 bidder was, that's who it went to, and20 that the District did not take an21 aggressive role in courting and22 identifying and say, Hey, we want your23 ideas; yes, we understand it might take24 longer, but if this is something that25 88 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 meets the need of a community, we're2 willing to work with you to get to a3 mutual goal.4 And so the reason that we did5 this reuse policy was to try and strike a6 balance. Yes, we like to make a profit,7 we like to get buildings off of our8 books, but we also recognized and9 understood that it was also our10 responsibility to acknowledge and to work11 through what a responsible reuse would12 be. And so actually we were invited to13 participate and present on our plan at a14 conference in Florida a few weeks ago,15 and several districts actually came up to16 us and asked us about -- they were17 interested in the process that we were18 going through.19 And I think the only other20 thing to note is that this is a much more21 intense, labor-intensive and22 time-intensive process when you're23 bringing people to the table. It's the24 right way to go. It just takes longer.25 89 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 And so the type of speed that Dr. Nunery2 referred to earlier, getting the deal3 done in six, seven months, eight months,4 it's going to take longer than that,5 because people really care about this and6 want to be able to ask questions and ask7 follow-up questions and read documents,8 and I think what we acknowledged is that9 through other processes where we modeled10 our community engagement that way is when11 we had the most success. And so that's12 the reason why we decided to approach13 things this way.14
So it's been hard16 to find some other districts who have17 been successful. Detroit has 92 empty18 buildings right now that they are holding19 on to and they haven't been able to20 resell.21
That might22 be a great idea for a Ph.D. student, a23 Ph.D. seeking a Ph.D. in education to24 take this and just run with it and do the25 90 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 research so that they can produce a2 document that sort of outlines this is3 the right way to do it.4 Lastly, I was struck by where you opted to -- and I'm sure6 for good reason -- to phase out a school,7 which gives a community X number of8 months and/or years for parents to9 prepare, because there are parents who10 start looking 24 months out for where11 their little one has to be 24 months12 later. So how did that school end up in13 that way?14
Primarily for the15 recommendations that we made for middle16 schools and high schools. That was a17 practice that when we had phased out and18 closed middle schools under the19 previous -- when Paul was here and he was20 creating K to 8's and closing middle21 schools, I think what we acknowledged is22 that sometimes you want to make -- for23 people who are in the building, they've24 already established a culture and there's25 91 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 a climate and you don't want that to be2 disrupted, especially at the middle3 school level. Those students are now4 thinking about high schools --5
-- and applying to8 high schools. They've developed9 relationships with counselors. They've10 developed relationships with teachers.11 And so while it may not be the most12 financially -- makes sort of the budget13 folks happy in terms of how we do this,14 because the last year tends to be the one15 that costs you, but when you think about16 the human element and you're talking17 about students and if they're there,18 don't displace them, that was the reason19 why we decided to do a phase-out model.20 So that way, you're not talking about21 maybe displacing 200 students and 2022 teachers. It may end up being three or23 four a year, but there's no more students24 going in, so if you haven't been there25 92 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 already, you're not impacted, and we can2 figure out other directions for you to3 go.4 And then at the high school5 level, again, students who have started6 to apply to college again have to develop7 those relationships, that the phase-out8 we see as both manageable from a District9 and from HR, from budget, from the10 academic side of things in doing11 transition. But then also when you think12 about just stability for students and not13 having an 11th grader having to go to14 another high school and try and figure15 out someone to advocate for them when16 they're applying for college. I mean,17 those are real -- that's the reality of18 those students.19
And so as21 Dr. Nunery mentioned before, the speed22 and the pace of it, it really does depend23 on the school, because in certain24 instances, we might need to be a little25 93 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 bit faster than what we had originally2 proposed. We can't do that at the3 elementary school level, so I know that4 that's the one where it looks the most5 disruptive. We don't have nine years to6 phase a school out, so it is that7 situation where everybody has got to go8 at one time, but I think that was9 something that we were very sensitive to.10 In other closings we had done11 historically at the middle school and the12 high school level was that the phase-outs13 tend to be accepted a little bit easier14 too when you roll that out as a proposal.15 If people haven't been in the building,16 they're a little bit less attached than17 those who are there.18
And you give20 students an opportunity to kind of create21 a culture on their way out, for lack of a22 better term. So that was kind of the23 thinking and impetus behind why we24 decided to go that route.25 94 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011
Thank you2 for that explanation.3 So let me close where I4 started. I fully appreciate the very5 meticulous, thoughtful, methodical, to6 use Superintendent's word, because it's7 essential when we are confronted with --8 the harsh reality is shaking up families,9 helping them understand they have to do10 some things differently. But the climate11 that we live in from a management12 standpoint mandates, requires you to do13 things differently, and the challenge14 becomes to keep parents and caregivers15 and students informed and neighboring16 community-based organizations as well as17 clergy, because they can help in this18 message delivery as well.19 So I thank Chairwoman Blackwell20 for the early meetings around this in the21 Caucus Room and appreciate the progress22 that you've done. Thank you for your23 testimony.24
Thank you,25 95 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 Councilwoman, and we'll be back and on a2 regular basis. We're receiving calls3 almost on a daily basis from somebody who4 has an interest or a particular building5 that they're concerned about. We're6 trying to signal as a team -- and I do7 mean a team -- a different approach than8 maybe what people have experienced with9 the District in, let's say, recent months10 or years. We are trying to be as11 analytical as possible, not spend money12 that we don't have, to be focused on, as13 Penny said, so well a new way of14 expressing the curriculum so that there's15 a greater chance for a young person to go16 to college or start a career as opposed17 to just going out and buying a whole new18 curriculum because that's the fad.19 The District already has an20 amazing number of teachers and principals21 and staff folks who know how to teach,22 and we have kids who want to learn.23 They're every day demonstrating it. But24 what I think we have to do is clear the25 96 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 clutter out of the way so that they can2 succeed. So we're not trying to be3 conservative or liberal or anything.4 We're just trying to do the work, and we5 think that particularly this Facilities6 Master Plan is a bit of a challenge7 because we're doing it at a time with at8 least 3,800 fewer people inside the9 District. We are half the Central Office10 size that we were last time we sat here.11 So we're doing a lot of this with fewer12 resources on board, but we will do it13 with your support, with your14 encouragement, and we hope that what15 you'll enable us to do is come back and16 talk to you individually informally so we17 keep the dialogue going. We want to18 learn as we go, but we can't make a lot19 of mistakes and cover for them later.20 We've got to do this right the first21 time.22
Your23 remarks reminded me of the one comment I24 also made, career tech education.25 97 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011
It really,7 really is. And to know that that's on8 your radar screen and a priority helps9 another whole segment of young people who10 only see this as an option or see this as11 an only option.12
You're16 welcome.17 Are there additional questions?18 (No response.)19
Is20 there anyone here who would like to21 testify who hasn't had the opportunity?22 (No response.)23
Having24 said that, we thank everyone for coming,25 98 11/28/11 - EDUCATION - RES. 110158 and 1108011 and this hearing will be recessed subject2 to the call of the Chair.3 Thank you very much.4
Thank8 you.9 (Committee on Education10 concluded at 2:45 p.m.)11 - - -12 13 14 15 16 17 99 CERTIFICATE2 I HEREBY CERTIFY that the3 proceedings, evidence and objections are4 contained fully and accurately in the5 stenographic notes taken by me upon the6 foregoing matter on November 28, 2011, and7 that this is a true and correct transcript of8 same.9 --------------------14 MICHELE L. MURPHY15 RPR-Notary Public16 (The foregoing certification of this20 transcript does not apply to any reproduction21 of the same by any means, unless under the22 direct control and/or supervision of the23 certifying reporter.)24