COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC HEARING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE - - - Room 696, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Thursday, November 21, 2002 8:50 a.m. - - - BILL 020481 - an Ordinance amending Title of the Philadelphia Code, entitled "Contracts and 11 Procurement... BILL 020675 - an Ordinance constituting the Fifth 12 Supplement Ordinance to the General Gas Works Revenue Bond Ordinance of 1998... 13 BILL 020676 - an Ordinance constituting the Seventeenth Supplemental Ordinance to the General 14 Gas Works Revenue Bond Ordinance of 1975... 15 - - - 16 PRESENT: 17 COUNCILWOMAN JANNIE BLACKWELL, Chair COUNCILWOMAN MARIAN TASCO, Vice Chair COUNCILMAN DAVID COHEN COUNCILMAN FRANK DICICCO COUNCILMAN MICHAEL NUTTER COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO - - - V A R A L L O Incorporated Litigation Support Services Eleven Penn Center 1835 Market Street, Suite 600 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 (215) 561-2220 I N D E X BILL 020675, 020676 PAGE COREY KEMP, City Treasurer .................. BILL 020481 BRETT MANDEL, City Controller's Office ...... DUANE BUMB, Deputy Commerce Director ....... 6 DAVID THORNBURGH, Pa. Economy League ....... 31 7 8 - - - 3 11/21/02 - FINANCE - BILLS 020675, 020676
Let me thank all who are here. We are convening a Finance Hearing. I thank members of the Committee also for being here. To my right is Vice Chair of the Finance Committee, Councilwoman Marian Tasco; to her right, Councilman James Kenney; to his right, Councilman Frank DiCicco. Councilman Brian O'Neill is expected, as are other members of the hearing. But for purposes of a quorum, we are prepared to begin. This morning's Committee on Finance will hear the following bills, Bill No. 020481 -- Bill 14 No. 020606, which I understand is still being held, am I correct?
So the second ordinance sponsored by Councilman O'Neill is still being held. Bill Nos. 020675 and 020676. We will ask the Clerk to read the titles. We'll start with the PGW bill, so we will ask the Clerk to read the titles of those bills. And whoever is here to testify in that regard, please approach the table. Bill No. 020675 and 020676. 4 11/21/02 - FINANCE - BILLS 020675, 020676
Bill No. 020675, an ordinance constituting the Fifth Supplement Ordinance to the General Gas Works Revenue Bond Ordinance of 1998, authorizing the Mayor, the City Controller and City Solicitor, or a majority of them to sell either at public or private sale, Gas Works Revenue Bonds, Fourth Series, of the City of Philadelphia, in one or more subseries to be issued to pay the cost of certain capital projects and other projects cost, as hereinafter more particularly described, and authorizing the application of proceeds of the Fourth Series Bonds for such purposes; authorizing the City of Philadelphia to obtain credit enhancement for the Fourth Series Bonds; authorizing the City of Philadelphia to enter into Qualified Swap Agreements or Exchange Agreements with respect to the Fourth Series Bonds; determining the sufficiency of Gas Works Revenues, all under certain terms and conditions. Bill No. 020676, an Ordinance 23 constituting the Seventeenth Supplemental Ordinance 24 to the General Gas Works Revenue Bond Ordinance of 1975; authorizing the Mayor, the City Controller and 5 11/21/02 - FINANCE - BILLS 020675, 020676 the City Solicitor, or a majority of them to sell either at public or private sale Gas Works Revenue Bonds, Seventeenth Series, of the City of Philadelphia, in one or more subseries to be issued to pay the cost of refunding or redeeming all or a portion of certain outstanding Gas Works Revenue Bonds and other project costs, as hereinafter more particularly described, and authorizing the application proceeds of the Seventeenth Series Bonds for such purposes; authorizing the City of Philadelphia to obtain credit enhancement of the Seventeenth Series Bonds; authorizing the City of Philadelphia to enter into swap agreements or exchange agreements with respect to the Seventeenth Series Bonds; determining the sufficiency of Project Revenues, all under certain terms and conditions.
Thank you very much. As many of you are aware, there were some questions from Members of the Committee with respect to various aspects of these bills and a report was made and delivered several days earlier in the week to each member of the Finance Committee which addressed those issues. 6 11/21/02 - FINANCE - BILLS 020675, 020676 Let me ask you at the witness table, good morning. Thank you for getting that done. And please identify yourself for the record and make any statement you would like.
Good morning, Councilwoman Blackwell and Members of the Committee on Finance. I'm Corey Kemp, City Treasurer for the City of Philadelphia. I'm here to testify on behalf of Bill 10 No. 020675 and 020676. I understand you have received additional information that you have requested at last week's public hearing. I hope that this information has answered your questions. I would like to say that PGW has timing issues relative to these two proposed bond issues. PGW needs to close the bond deals for the new money by December 31st in order to meet that service payment in the beginning of January. In order to accomplish this, these ordinances need to have final passage by Council no later than December 5th of this year. Again, I am requesting suspension of the rules on both of these ordinances. And this concludes my testimony and I'm happy to answer any 7 11/21/02 - FINANCE - BILL 020481 questions you may have at this time.
Thank you very much. Are there questions from Members of the Committee on either of these two bills? (No response.)
We thank you very much. I assume you are asking for a rules suspension, Mr. Kemp?
Thank you very much. The next bill for consideration is Bill 15 020481. We will ask the Clerk to read the title of the bill and ask for those who are here testify to please approach the witness table. Will the Clerk read the title of the bill?
An Ordinance amending Title 17 of the Philadelphia Code, entitled "Contracts and Procurement," by adding a new chapter requiring the City Controller to prepare or cause to be prepared economic impact statements for certain development projects prior to funding of such 8 11/21/02 - FINANCE - BILL 020481 projects by the City or a City-related agency, all under certain terms and conditions.
Thank you very much. Good morning. Welcome. Would you identify yourself for the record and make your testimony?
Brett Mandel with the City Controller's. City Controller Saidel is unable to attend so I will be reading his testimony. With me is Matt Bailey from our offices. We have copies of the testimony, although, I believe they were distributed in advance.
I come before you today to offer testimony on Bill No. 020481, which would require the Controller's Office to oversee the preparation of economic impact statements for large projects that receive City funning. I applaud Councilman Nutter, and all of the City Council for focusing attention on this issue. Throughout my service as City Controller, I have advocated for greater focus on the fiscal impact of all actions undertaken by the 9 11/21/02 - FINANCE - BILL 020481 government. Without accurate estimates of the anticipated costs and benefits of proposed projects, it will always be difficult to evaluate the merits of complex policy issues. I, therefore, believe that preparation of economic impact statements by my office will benefit this Council and the citizenry at large as it considers pursuing major city projects, and I support the intent of this legislation. While I support the creation of a framework for financial analysis of these projects, I believe that passage of this bill would have substantial budgetary implications for my office. Although my office has significant expertise in understanding the financial impact of development projects, I expect that the office would need to engage the assistance of outside consultants to assist in the analysis of many types of projects. Specifically, in generating the assumptions that drive any economic analysis, my office will likely have to engage outside experts with industry knowledge to ensure that such analyses are sound. The cost to my office of implementing this legislation will vary depending on the number 10 11/21/02 - FINANCE - BILL 020481 of projects and type of analysis necessary, but I believe that a preliminary cost estimate of $50,000 to $100,000 annually is reasonable. This cost estimate could grow significantly if the number of analyses that must be completed increases. Similarly, if my office is to undertake such analyses in the near future, we could have a budgetary need this fiscal year. Detailed and thoughtful economic analysis of the costs and impacts of proposed projects is essential for the effective oversight of our City's budget, and I will be pleased to work with City Council to increase the capacity of my office to facilitate this expansion of its responsibilities. I am happy to answer any questions.
Thank you very much. Are there any questions? Councilwoman Tasco you have a question? And then Mr. Cuorato is here to testify as well. (Speaker not on microphone.)
Can you speak for him after the question? If he's not here, would 11 11/21/02 - FINANCE - BILL 020481 you read his statement? Thank you. Councilwoman Tasco.
What would be the purpose of doing a financial impact, a fiscal impact? What would you look for in terms of these analyses?
Generally, when you do some analysis like this, you would take a look at the quantifiable, direct, indirect costs and benefits. Project X will have a cost of $50 million. We'll have a $50 million benefit. Will the benefit be greater than $50 million? What would the effects of this project be? It would be a tool for you to look at and say, "Is this worth the cost? Is there enough bang for the buck? Would we rather place this money someplace else or do we think this project deserves funding?"
I'll ask Mr. Cuorato when he comes up. I have a question about -- is this being done now on projects in the City? Does the PIDC or the Commerce Department perform impact analysis?
That's a question I think 12 11/21/02 - FINANCE - BILL 020481 you should best ask them. I know in our case occasionally for a given project, we may weigh in and perform some analyses either at the request of Council or at the direction of the City Controller.
Thank you very much. We also have Peter Longstreth and Bob Fina if anyone is here to speak for them next, we certainly invite them. Now, you're able to read Jim Cuorato, Commerce Director. Good morning. Please identify yourself for the record and read the testimony.
Good morning, Councilwoman Blackwell, Members of Council. My name is Duane Bumb, Deputy Commerce Director. I appreciate this opportunity to submit testimony on Bill 020481, an ordinance that would require the City Controller to prepare economic impact statement for certain large development projects receiving City funding. At the outset, I'd like to state that we fully support Council's interest in being fully informed when considering whether to provide City financial support to major developments. Bill No. 25 020481 would require that an economic impact 13 11/21/02 - FINANCE - BILL 020481 statement be prepared by or on behalf of the City Controller whenever the City provides assistance to developments costing $50 million or more. We currently provide economic impact reports to City Council for every tax increment financing transaction brought to you for consideration, regardless of total development cost. These reports are prepared by PIDC as part of any TIF plan and are provided to the City Controller and to PICA for review and comment.
We turned off the air to allow -- would somebody get the other air conditioner for me if it's on? Thank you.
As I just said, we currently provide economic impact reports to City Council for every Tax Increment Financing Transaction brought to you for consideration, regardless of total development costs. These reports are prepared by PIDC as part of any TIF plan and are provided to the City Controller and PICA for review and comment. We also provide a detailed financial 14 11/21/02 - FINANCE - BILL 020481 analysis to Council for all major capital projects requiring City capital or bond authorization. Such projects include the runway and terminal expansions at Philadelphia International Airport as well as other large publicly owned facilities like the Convention Center. When we present a funding proposal to Council for the expansion to the Convention Center, it will include a full economic impact analysis. Given the level of current reporting to City Council, it is not clear how the City would benefit from the reporting requirements established by Bill 020481. As I have already noted, Council currently receives economic impact reports for all major development projects where it is considering providing City funding. A concern we have in establishing such additional requirements is that the already lengthy timeline on major developments gets further extended. As a result, this bill would be at cross-purposes with our ongoing efforts to streamline the City's regulatory process. Every time we increase the number of conditions on City approval, we increase the cost of development in the 15 11/21/02 - FINANCE - BILL 020481 City and discourage the very investments that are so critical to our economic future. The requirement that an economic impact statement must be prepared by the City Controller prior to City Council consideration will be seen by the development community as another barrier to investing in the City. If such information is already made available to Council, it is difficult to understand how the City is benefited by such a requirement. Ultimately, this new reporting requirement will be viewed by the business community as an additional risk for project delay and the escalating costs associated with that delay. Additionally, the proposed legislation will create a reporting requirement even when the City's financial role is limited to acting as a conduit for State or Federal funds. We have submitted legislation to City Council several times in the past two years that would allow us to accept State Redevelopment Assistance Funding for major projects. In nearly all cases, the funds received from the State are matched by non-City sources. Whether these State grant funds are for the National Constitution Center, which is nearing completion, or 16 11/21/02 - FINANCE - BILL 020481 for large medical research facilities in University City, the City plays an important role in facilitating those financial transactions. For these types of projects, the reporting requirement in the proposed legislation adds an additional requirement to receiving grant funds not sourced to the City. For the reasons I've outlined, we do not support Bill 020481 and would, therefore, respectfully request that City Council not approve this legislation. I'd be happy to respond to any questions you may have.
Thank you very much. Questions? Councilman Nutter.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Mr. Bumb, I was, unfortunately, reading your testimony as you were delivering it, as I just received it this morning and was not aware of the Administration's position on the bill until you came here this morning. So forgive me if I'm a little 17 11/21/02 - FINANCE - BILL 020481 behind on the things that you may have said. Now, you indicated that you already provide economic impact reports with regard to TIFs; is that correct?
That's correct, as I think is required by your previous legislation.
You do that now as a result of Council legislation; is that correct?
And so is your conclusion, though, that even though you report -- even though you make those kinds of reports for TIFs, that you should not do them for other types projects; is that the testimony?
No. In fact, our position would be that we do provide that sort of information for all major projects. It's specifically required for TIFs by legislation.
Was that economic impact analysis provided for the stadiums? The type of report that we're talking about here, was that provided for the stadiums?
Yes. That sort of analysis would have been provided for City Council as part of 18 11/21/02 - FINANCE - BILL 020481 that discussion.
You think that there was an economic impact statement provided for those projects?
So, do you see any need for providing these kinds of economic impact reports on major development projects, or is the position it might somehow slow something down and therefore we should not provide it? I'm really just trying to understand the testimony, since I just received it.
Again, our position would be that we understand that economic impact reports should be done for major projects. That in most cases that's already provided to City Council directly by Commerce or PIDC for most of these projects. To the extent that Council believes that a development proposal comes before you that doesn't have sufficient information, you certainly have 19 11/21/02 - FINANCE - BILL 020481 every right to request that information before you give final consideration.
Now, in the requesting of that information, is that seen as a negative in the business community since we're proposing to spend taxpayer dollars? Because the testimony seems to indicate that having that requirement might be seen as a negative in the business community.
One of the concerns is that the requirement is from yet another party so that as the Administration provides --
That's correct. But, in fact, we are certainly -- as we're moving legislation, presenting legislation to you, it is our responsibility to make sure that you get in a timely manner any information you need. We don't have any control over when the Controller can provide that information to you and based on the 20 11/21/02 - FINANCE - BILL 020481 testimony provided earlier that's there's going to be a financial impact to the Controller's Office that has to be met as well.
Are you concerned that the Controller might somehow hold up a project?
I'm concerned that we don't control their work load, and I don't know what their work load is.
You think they would not take this kind of work or work requirement seriously, understanding what the timing issues are?
I'm sure that they would take it very seriously, especially for major projects.
That we, for whatever reasons, could experience delays that were not anticipated. That we could have provided --
Mr. Bumb, we've had projects that were, for whatever reason, delayed expectedly or unexpectedly with no economic impact statement requirement; isn't that case? I mean, do all the projects move along at lightning pace?
There are lots of reasons why 21 11/21/02 - FINANCE - BILL 020481 projects are delayed. I mean, there are hundreds of reasons. The issue here is it would appear we put one more potential reason for a project delay that --
The reason being, we'd like information about the nature of the project and how it's going to impact the economics of this City and how taxpayer dollars are being spent and raising questions as to whether the project is in fact a viable project, given limited resources that we have; that kind of information is not a good thing for us to have?
That the information must come from a specific source, not just --
You may have a requirement that there be an economic impact analysis, but --
I think if they're available that the City Controller's Office is a fine source for that. I'm also suggesting that if it could be done quicker some other place that we shouldn't 22 11/21/02 - FINANCE - BILL 020481 limit it to some other place.
It could be done through PIDC as part of the development process, if they are packaging a development for your consideration.
How do you get an independent analysis by the entity that's more than likely putting the project forward? I mean, what else would their analysis say? Generally, people who sell fish don't advertise that they have bad fish for sale, right?
You might want another person to determine whether the product is good or not.
Again, I'm not taking issue with the quality of our Controller's report. I'm saying that -- first of all, I would say that a report that we would be submitting to you, we would offer as an objective analysis of that information as well.
So you're not so 23 11/21/02 - FINANCE - BILL 020481 much objecting to the actual reporting requirement, you're concerned about, quote/unquote, an outside party, as if the Controller is some nameless, faceless, you know, subsidiary planet of our universe providing the report as opposed to someone who is closer inside and more intimately familiar with what's going on providing that kind of analysis; is that the distinction that we're making here?
Right, that you certainly have the right to ask for any level of reporting before you consider a major bill like this. We don't take issue with that. We're suggesting that you want to keep your options open so that should there be any sort of delay that could be corrected in a different way -- one other sort of qualification I would put on that is that the legislation talks about projects of $50 million or more. It doesn't speak to the level of City assistance. It just says if the total project is a $50 million value or more. So therefore, if we -- hypothetically as part of that transaction, the City's involvement was that we provided the real estate -- 24 11/21/02 - FINANCE - BILL 020481
I think it speaks directly to that. It says any City involvement.
That's right. Still, the threshold is not on -- I would suggest the threshold, if the concern is specifically with City resources, it should be based on certain value of the City resource. And so if a property is worth $100,000 and it generates a $50 million development, that wouldn't have the same sort of level of scrutiny by City Council as one where we were building a convention expansion and that will cost us hundreds of millions of dollars.
I'm reading the City Solicitor's comments about the bill. I think in your testimony you talked about delay. If there's legislation in place that requires an economic impact study, you know that up front so 25 11/21/02 - FINANCE - BILL 020481 it's forthcoming when you introduce the legislation. Or you could have a situation where it comes in and Council says, "Okay, you need to go back and do an economic impact study and we want the Controller to do it." So having this bill in place provides you with the understanding that that is to be provided. Because you can cause the delay by going back, because Council has the right to request additional information and we can request it from whomever we wish to request it. And so I would look at it as, you know, let's do it up front, otherwise it's going to come in on the back.
Right. I'm not going to speak for the City Solicitor. I just saw this memo this morning.
I'm responding to your comments about the delay of moving a project forward if we require an outside analysis. PIDC, I mean, he who pays the piper calls the tune. So that entity presenting us with legislation for a project to provide us with an analysis that they pay for, done by their consultants, doesn't give you the comfort level that it's going to be all that objective. 11/21/02 - FINANCE - BILL 020481
To the extent that we view a project as being a major development that requires serious scrutiny by the City, you're right, we should be anticipating that and an economic impact report should be prepared whether it's by the Controller's Office or otherwise as part of that submission for your consideration. One of the questions, though, will be does this legislation define all those sort of circumstances. One example that I cited in the testimony was when we receive redevelopment assistance grants from the State, it is literally a pass-through. It comes into the City from the State. It is matched generally by a sponsor's 50/50 match. One example would be a medical research facility that the University of Pennsylvania would be constructing and receives State grant money. That grant money is approved through legislation of City Council. And so it would appear to be --
But that's not City Council. That's not City dollars. As I understand it, this would require the dollars that come from the General Fund or Capital Budget, that the City have any investment in the project. 27 11/21/02 - FINANCE - BILL 020481
That's the question I was going to ask. Does the City have money in the University of Pennsylvania Medical Center project?
I would say the City does not. However, if $30 million of State grant funding passed to the City, that means it literally came into a City account and goes back out, there is a City Council action.
First of all, Mr. Bumb, I think if you read the legislation you will see that, one, that's not the point. Two, the University of Pennsylvania Medical Center is not a City project. The City is not making any investment in that project. It is a transfer. And if in the matter that you raised, if it's $30 million, it's not triggered by the legislation anyway. There's a $50 million threshold.
Right. My example would have been that that is a 50/50 match which is a $60 million -- but you're right. I take your point.
Look, on my worse day, I'm still a fairly reasonable person. And we can certainly continue to talk about it if you want to take a second look at the legislation. I'll be 28 11/21/02 - FINANCE - BILL 020481 glad to reread your testimony and look at the Solicitor's opinion, all of which came in today. And if we can iron out a few things, I'm more than willing to work with the Commerce Department or anyone else in the Administration about these kinds of finer point details and issues. I'm not disputing that there could be concerns. And if we can work in the spirit of cooperation, I'm more than willing to take a look at some of the situations. I have no interest in trying to hold up a project. None. My interest is in having as much information as possible for us to be able to make good decisions. That's my only interest here. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Councilman Cohen. And the Chair also notes that he is present and we're glad to have him this morning. Councilman Cohen.
Could you tell us approximately how many projects are eligible for this kind of examination during the course of an average year? How many 50 million or more dollar 29 11/21/02 - FINANCE - BILL 020481 projects do we have?
I don't have it by year. I can tell you that based on a review of the inventory of projects at PIDC, which is where most or all of these would have passed through, PIDC or PAID, there are 34 projects in the last years that would have 8 had these -- there are 14 additional projects which 9 are in some process right now, TIF projects for 10 example, the 14 would include the TIF projects. So 11 I think realistically, we could expect maybe up to 12 five per year is probably a good sort of range of 13 the volume of projects that would meet the threshold 14 that is dealt with in this legislation. 15
I'm trying to 16 understand why there would be objections to an 17 additional economic impact study other than that 18 made by the Mayor or outside consultants if it's to 19 be made by the official City Controller. What would 20 be wrong with that?
We don't have an objection to the City Controller providing review or independent analysis of projects. I think our concern is that it be a requirement before you've seen the project or the analysis that was provided otherwise. And 30 11/21/02 - FINANCE - BILL 020481 again, the primary interest on our part there being to prevent delays that might -- unintended delays that might occur. So to answer to your question, we don't object to --
That the Council would set a requirement separate from -- before seeing the specific legislation for that. City Council certainly can for any project for its consideration ask for more information or specific information as part of its consideration. That's always been the case. We're suggesting that there may be cases where you don't feel you need to see more information than our economic impact analysis would have provided you.
I'm sorry, I'm not getting why the City objects to this. You say Council can request the City Controller to do it without this legislation.
In many large projects, the 31 11/21/02 - FINANCE - BILL 020481 City Council will ask for additional information and for information that is specifically related to economic impact analysis, and we provide that.
Then what is the objection? If the City Council can do it individually on each case, why do you object to making part of the standard practice?
Because if it's information that we believe is already provided to you, what we've really done here is add one additional requirement, whether it's duplicative or not, and that in fact sets the wrong tone for how do we streamline projects in the City. If we believe we're providing that information today --
I get very uncomfortable when you talk about streamlining the procedure when the cost to the City is going to be something like $50 million. I think maybe projects involving that kind of money requires a lot of consideration, a lot of studies.
The Chair calls David Thornburgh from the Economy League. 32 11/21/02 - FINANCE - BILL 020481
Good morning Councilwoman Tasco, Members of the Finance Committee. I do have copies of my testimony if somebody can pass it around. Again, good morning. My name is David Thornburgh. I serve as Executive Director of the Pennsylvania Economy League here in Philadelphia. I appreciate the chance to speak with you today on this bill and its relevance to the City's future. My comments will be brief. Simply put, as we've heard, this bill would require an economic impact analysis to be prepared and distributed for City investments in development projects that total at least $50 million. Given the Economy League's history of working with public and private leaders to assess the relative importance of major public investments, this strikes me as a very reasonable and important proposition. Before millions an taxpayers' dollars are spent in e interest of improving their lives and their communities, there should be some analysis of the potential impact of that investment. That analysis should be done competently and consistently and should be made available to key decision-makers in advance of their 33 11/21/02 - FINANCE - BILL 020481 decisions on the potential investment. This is a core value of the 62 men and women representing most of the major companies and institutions in the City and the region who serve on PEL's Board in Philadelphia area. In fact, it's one of four areas highlighted in PEL's brochure, called the Pennsylvania Economy League in Perspective. To quote from that section called Investing Tax Dollars Wisely, "In a world full of choices, the League believes that public investment decisions should be made with a clear understanding of their costs and benefits." I think it's hard to argue with that statement. Having said that, there are some challenges in implementing this legislation. Sometimes, for good reason, negotiations with potential recipients of economic development investments need to quieter rather than more visible. Economic impact analyses are also of widely varying quality. Many different questions can be asked in the name of economic impact and they can answered in many different ways. Some things are more knowable than others. It's relatively easy to figure out how many construction jobs public 34 11/21/02 - FINANCE - BILL 020481 dollars will support on a project and relatively difficult to know how that project, a new Phillies ballpark in South Philadelphia, for instance, will improve quality of life or add to economic growth in the City over long run.
Excuse me. I'm sorry that I have to interrupt you. As Chair of this Committee, the Chair takes prerogative to make a statement. And that is: We have been told that certain people can be allowed in this hearing and certain people cannot be allowed in this hearing. We've been told that the configuration of the room is changed. And I believe that's anti-American, I believe it's against the policies of this Council, and I will not continue a hearing where anybody who wants to be in cannot get in. Therefore, as Chair of this Committee, I take the prerogative to say this hearing will be in recess until -- and we have Council that's supposed to come after this. We're going to have a problem in here this morning -- until everyone who wants to come in this room can come in for a hearing or until another space is found. I wouldn't care if it's out in the middle of Broad Street that will allow 35 11/21/02 - FINANCE - BILL 020481 anybody in Philadelphia who wants to be in the hearing to come in. (Applause.)
Now, I mean no 6 disrespect to anybody here, obviously not my colleagues, not everybody who's here to deal with these bills. Certainly, as Finance Chair, I need these bills out and we wanted to suspend to hear them in the Council hearing. But, obviously, the first thing is that we are Americans and we have a right, everybody has a right to be part of this government. And I won't be a part of a system that does not permit that. (Applause.)
Now I'm very happy to hear from anyone who has anything to say about that who is willing to rectify that or willing to address this issue. Without that, then we'll sit here until somebody does or until until. So that's where we are. We're going to just sit and see what happens. But we cannot continue this hearing until anybody who wants to be in gets in. You can't be a commissioner or elected official to get entrance into a public room. We're not going to have it. 36 11/21/02 - FINANCE - BILL 020481 (Applause.)
If I fight for people with no clothes, you know I'm going to fight for folks who come in here fully dressed, no matter whether you wear jeans or a suit. We believe in the people's business and we believe in the rights of people. Anything less than that is wrong. (Applause.)
We could have been finished this a long, long time ago. We were in the middle of testimony. David Thornburgh. I regret we had to interrupt your testimony, but sometimes in a democracy we have growing pains. But in the a democracy, everybody has rights. We're going to make sure, as long as we're around, that the rights of everybody, the rights of each individual, is protected. Some people don't have more rights than others. (Applause.)
We all have equal rights and so we want to make sure that those 37 11/21/02 - FINANCE - BILL 020481 rights are protected. As long as I'm around, we're going to make sure that happens. Mr. Thornburgh, will you continue your testimony? Thank you very much.
Can we keep it down because more people are coming in, which is what we insist on, but we need to kind of keep it down so that we can hear the testimony. Thank you so much.
You're quite welcome. It is surprising to see that there's such interest in this issue of economic impact. Let me just finish with a last paragraph of my testimony and then I'll answer your questions if you have them. Done responsibly and with common sense and communicated clearly, economic impact statements can be a very useful decision-making tool. They can't be precise, but they can be accurate and can help establish the relative impact of investments. If Project A promises to create one job for every $50,000 of public investment, Project B promises to create one job for every $500,000 of public 38 11/21/02 - FINANCE - BILL 020481 investment, we ought to know that ahead of time and it should factor in our collective decision about whether to support or reject a particular proposal. Thank you. I'd be happy to answer questions.
Thank you very much. Are there any questions with regard to any of these bills that we've heard in our hearing today? (No response.)
All right. That will conclude our stated hearing. - - - 39 COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC MEETING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE - - - November 21, 2002 - - - Public Meeting conducted by the Committee on Finance, held in Room 696, City Hall, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, on the above date, to consider action on the following: BILLS 020481, 020675, 020676 - - - PRESENT: COUNCILWOMAN JANNIE BLACKWELL, Chair COUNCILWOMAN MARIAN TASCO, Vice Chair COUNCILMAN DAVID COHEN COUNCILMAN FRANK DICICCO COUNCILMAN MICHAEL NUTTER COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO - - - 40 11/21/02 - FINANCE - PUBLIC MEETING
The Finance Committee will enter stated meeting. We will now entertain a motion by Councilman Nutter after remarks with regard to Bill No. 020481.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, let me also put on the record from the public hearing, I want to thank the Chair for getting the information that had been requested at the last Finance Committee hearing with regard to the PGW matters. The information that we received was responsive to the questions that were asked, and I appreciate the Chair getting that information from PGW in a timely fashion. Madam Chair, I move that Bill 020481 be reported out of this Committee with a favorable recommendation. Further recommendation that the Rules of Council be suspended so as to permit first reading at our next Session. (Duly seconded.)
It has been moved and seconded that Bill No. 020481 be reported out of Committee with a favorable recommendation, and also a recommendation that the Rules of Council be suspended so as to permit first meeting at our 41 11/21/02 - FINANCE - PUBLIC MEETING next Session of Council. All in favor? (Aye.)
This ayes have it, and so this bill passes. Councilman Kenney, we'll entertain a motion with regard to Bill No. 020675.
Madam Chair, I move that Bill No. 020675 be reported out of this committee favorably and a request made for rules suspension to allow first reading at our next Council Session. (Duly seconded.)
It has been moved and seconded that Bill No. O2O675 be reported out of Committee with a favorable recommendation and also a recommendation that the Rules of Council be suspended so as to permit first reading at our next Session of Council. All in favor? (Aye.)
Opposed? 42 11/21/02 - FINANCE - PUBLIC MEETING (No response.)
The ayes have it. This bill, likewise, is reported out of Committee. Councilman O'Neill, would you give a motion with regard to Bill No. 020676?
Madam Chair, I move that Bill No. 020676 be reported out of this Committee with favorable recommendation, also a recommendation that the Rules of Council be suspended to allow first reading at our next Session. (Duly seconded.)
Following the last hearing on this bill, I understood that there was a hearing that took place at the State Building at which somebody for the Gas Works requested consideration by the State of a proposal to eliminate the senior citizens discount. I don't know whether the statement I just made was accurate 43 11/21/02 - FINANCE - PUBLIC MEETING or not. Is there anyone here from the Gas Works that can shed enlightenment on that? Because that's a very revered and urgent policy that the City has followed for many years to make it possible for senior citizens who have been loyal suppliers of the Gas Works, paid their high bills during difficult days and have earned the right to the senior citizen discount. We don't want to see that touched or hurt in any way. My vote on this bill may very well depend on the answer I get to that question. Is there anybody here from the Gas Works that can reply as to whether or not the Gas Works is taking any action intended to bring about a ruling by the State PUC that would eliminate or tend to eliminate the senior citizen discount?
My name is Sam Weinstein. I'm the Special Assistant to Local 686 of the Gas Workers Union. And we have been opposing 44 11/21/02 - FINANCE - PUBLIC MEETING the fact that PGW has gone before the public utilities commission asking basically for them to do away with the senior citizen discount for all future senior citizens after September 1, 2003. So we absolutely agree with you, Councilman Cohen, that the senior citizen discount serves a tremendous purpose in protecting our senior citizens and we are opposing it in front of the PUC and we would hope that you would oppose it everywhere else.
Let the Chair rule that we would report on these bills and report them out. But for anyone here who represents PGW, we would like to meet with regard with regard to senior citizen discount. I support it and I believe that the Committee as a whole supports senior citizen discounts, and we are asking that you be in touch with us and meet with us with regard to maintaining it. Thank you very much. We thank our union brothers for that. We have a motion on the floor that's been moved and seconded. All in favor? (Aye.)
Opposed? 45 11/21/02 - FINANCE - PUBLIC MEETING (No response.)
I'm abstaining, Madam Chair, until I get clarity. I appreciate the statement of the Chair of this Committee made in support of the senior citizen discount. And I just want everybody to understand that any efforts by that will meet with very, very, very strong opposition by the City Council.
Thank you very much. The Chair notes that there is one abstention on voting with regard to Bill No. 020676. All in favor? (Aye.)
It's aye with one abstention. Opposed? (No response.)
The ayes have it. And so that will conclude our hearing. I thank you all very much. See, this was very, very painless. All they had to do was let everybody in and we wouldn't 46 11/21/02 - FINANCE - PUBLIC MEETING have had this problem to begin with. Thank you all. Thank you. (Applause.) (Council adjourned at 10:24 a.m.) - - - 47 C E R T I F I C A T I O N I HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing proceedings of the Council of the City of Philadelphia of November 21, 2002, were reported fully and accurately by me, and that this is a correct transcript of the same. RE: COMMITTEE ON FINANCE ___________________________ Lisa C. Bradley, RPR and Notary Public