COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC HEARING AND PUBLIC MEETING BEFORE COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Tuesday, 3/27/01 10:35 a.m. - - - RESOLUTION 000664 - Authorizing the City Council Committee on Public Safety to hold hearings on enforcement related to Section 12-1130 of the Philadelphia Code and the possibility of a citywide Live Stop Program PRESENT: COUNCILMAN RICHARD T. MARIANO COUNCILMAN DARRELL L. CLARKE COUNCILMAN JAMES L. KENNEY COUNCILWOMAN DONNA REED MILLER COUNCIL PRESIDENT ANNA C. VERNA - - - VINCENT VARALLO ASSOCIATES, INC. Registered Professional Reporters Eleven Penn Center, Suite 600 Philadelphia, PA 19103 (215) 561-2220 2 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY I N D E X The Honorable Fortunato Perri. . . . . . . . . Administrative Judge, Philadelphia Traffic Court Maria Figueroa, Supervisor . . . . . . . . . . Boot and Tow Department Robert DeEmilio, Administrative Officer. . . . Philadelphia Traffic Court Chief Inspector Richard Bullick. . . . . . . . 44 Phila. Police Depart. Automotive Services Bureau Fran Healy . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 54 Special Advisor to Police Commissioner Jerry Lamparter, Traffic Safety Activist . . . 57 Joan Pfaehler. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 66 Daughter of victim of uninsured driver Dominic J. Carbine, ASEABA . . . . . . . . . . 68 Jordan Lepow, Coordinator. . . . . . . . . . . 73 Fifth Street Auto Parts and Allegheny Auto Parts 3 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 P R O C E E D I N G S
We're going to bring to order the public hearing for Public Safety. Ray, you can read the bill.
Authorizing the City Council Committee on Public Safety to hold hearings on enforcement related to Section 12-1130 of the Philadelphia Code and the possibility of a citywide Live Stop Program.
The first one testifying will be the Honorable Fortunato Perri, President Judge of Traffic Court. Mr. Perri, please step up to the table and state your name and your position for the record. (Witness comes forward.) JUDGE PERRI: I brought some staff with me, Councilman. Do you mind, Councilman?
Sure. JUDGE PERRI: In case you have some questions, they'll be able to answer it. Hi. My name is Fortunato Perri. I'm the Administrative Judge of the Philadelphia Traffic Court. 4 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664
Do you have written testimony, Judge? Do you have anything written out for us? JUDGE PERRI: No. 6
Okay. JUDGE PERRI: I'm just going to go off-the-cuff. I didn't have anything prepared.
You're just going to wing it, right? JUDGE PERRI: Yes, I'm going to wing it. If I say something wrong, cut the mike off.
And we'll give you a five-second delay in case you curse, Judge. JUDGE PERRI: Good. Make it a seven-second because. . .
Go ahead. JUDGE PERRI: All right. What I would like to propose to City Council and to the Philadelphia Police Department today is that we have a Live Stop Program that I believe exists in four districts in the City of Philadelphia, and it's handled by the Philadelphia Parking Authority. I would like to increase the districts that we do Live Stop in, and the districts I would 5 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 like to go into are the 2nd, 15th, the 7th, and the 8th, and I'd like to do that with private towers. Leave the existing program stay the way it is with the Parking Authority, but let's expand it to those Northeast districts. I believe my plan would not cost the City of Philadelphia ten cents; we can do it at no 9 cost at all to the City of Philadelphia. I have a program in effect. I have a tower that would control the situation, and all I need is the cooperation of the Philadelphia Police Department and if I can get that cooperation. Now, we have statistics from when this program started of how many cars were towed and how many cars wee sold, the revenue that's gone into the City Treasurer from this program. And if you would like, I'd like to have Bob DeEmilio give you those figures, if you'd like.
Yes. JUDGE PERRI: And by the way, if you have any questions of me --
Your Honor? JUDGE PERRI: Yes. 6 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664
Your Honor, do you mind elaborating on the existing program that you're referring to. JUDGE PERRI: Well, the existing program -- if a vehicle is stopped in one of four districts in the City of Philadelphia, the Police Department notify the Parking Authority. They send a truck out to tow that vehicle and impound it. The driver is given a notice to come to Traffic Court. The car's not released unless the owner and the drive come to Traffic Court, post whatever collateral is required on our traffic tickets, and some of 'em have thousands of dollars in traffic tickets. Some of 'em, when they walk in, could owe 6, $7,000 in traffic tickets. Some of the judges in Traffic Court will take them into custody, commit them into prison until they post the collateral. Before the vehicle is released, they must show registration and current insurance and a driver's license. If they can't do that and the car is not released by the Philadelphia Traffic Court, the vehicle is then sold at auction within 7 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 30 or 32 days. And we have statistics on that from the Parking Authority.
Okay, thank you. And where does this program currently exist? JUDGE PERRI: I think it's -- I think the police could answer. The 25th District? The 1st District? (Judge Perri confers with staff member.)
She's going to have to step up to the microphone. JUDGE PERRI: She said the 3rd District, 25th District. (Witness comes forward.)
Right now, we have the 3rd District, 6th District, 25th District, and sometimes the 9th District. JUDGE PERRI: That's four.
Four right now. JUDGE PERRI: They just include -- they 8 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 just put the 25th in there recently.
So it's the 1st, 3rd and 4th are the original test pilot?
No. My understanding is the original was 3, 4 and 6, and they added 25. JUDGE PERRI: That's it.
They have 3, 4, and 6. I know that for sure 'cause that's the district I live in and that's where cars get towed.
That's where cars get impounded; it's a lovely sight. JUDGE PERRI: Yes, yes.
Thank you, Councilman. JUDGE PERRI: Do you have any questions, Councilman?
Councilman Clarke, 9 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 you got questions for Judge Perri?
Your Honor, I had asked some questions when we had met earlier to discuss some of these issues associated with this particular program. And in particularly, I was interested in some of the demographics associated with the drivers of the vehicles that were confiscated -- either zip codes or some sense of where these individuals live: Were they native to the areas where the cars were confiscated, or were they from other areas?
Ma'am, you're going to have to identify yourself for the record.
Oh, I'm sorry. My name is Maria Figueroa. I'm the supervisor of the Boot and Tow Department.
So the area where they 10 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 come from, they come from the 22nd zip code, the 40th, 20, the 33rd. They come from all over.
Do you have the specifics on where? I mean, when you say "all over," is there a number associated with --
When they come, like, from the 6th District, when the car gets impounded from the 6th District, the zip codes area, we have that individual from, like, the 34th zip code.
Excuse me, ma'am. Do you have that broken down so we can see it?
Like, when you make a stop in a certain district, what's the zip codes that's getting most of the stops? JUDGE PERRI: Give your name.
Good morning, Councilpersons. My name is Robert DeEmilio. I'm an administrative officer at the Philadelphia Traffic Court. We do have a breakdown, Councilman, to your question. We have a breakdown of how many Live Stops occurred where the violator resided, 11 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 and we have that for you here. We also have a breakdown of the Philadelphia zip codes, the 191 area and how many Live Stops of where the residents live.
It appears to be a long list. Do you have the -- give me the top three, the top three zip codes.
The top three zip codes would be 19140 where 566 Live Stops occurred; 19143, where 532 Live Stops occurred; and 19120, where 465 Live Stops occurred.
Okay. Were the vehicles -- the people who were stopped, those 500-and-some in those various zip codes, did they reside in those zip codes?
Okay. And is it 12 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 similarly equally distributed among the rest of the zip codes, or does it go down dramatically as you move down the list? If we had the list, it would be a lot easier for me.
Okay. And another question. With respects to the type of infractions that cause the confiscation of the vehicle, because that's important, is it insurance versus non-registration or a non-licensed driver? Do you have that kind of breakdown?
Councilman, the four violations that would have reason to have your car 13 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 impounded would be 1301-A of the vehicle code, which is operating an unregistered vehicle; 1371-A, which is operating a vehicle while registration is suspended; 1501-A, operating a vehicle unlicensed; and 1543-A, operating a vehicle with a suspended driver's license.
Okay. What's the breakdown? Do you have the breakdown? JUDGE PERRI: With regard to what?
I mean, traditionally, if you stop a person, would that person be more prone not to have a driver's license, or would they be more prone not to have insurance, or do we find that they don't have any of that stuff? JUDGE PERRI: Well, we -- I have a breakdown here, Councilman.
Judge, could I just interrupt? I'm sorry, just one second. JUDGE PERRI: Sure.
'Cause I think there may be some misunderstanding. Cars are not confiscated for lack of auto insurance. JUDGE PERRI: That's correct. 14 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664
Actually, the bill 3 was amended -- the bill was amended in Harrisburg to take the auto insurance requirement off of the State statute, enabling this program. So only those four areas -- unregistered, suspended registration, unlicensed or suspended license -- are you permitted to take the car? If the person cannot produce an auto insurance proof, that is not grounds for removing the vehicle. JUDGE PERRI: Correct.
What happens is that when a person has their license suspended or drives without a license, in more cases than not, they're not going to have insurance anyway 'cause they don't have a license to get the insurance. So the point is that no one's car is being removed for lack of auto insurance. JUDGE PERRI: Correct.
It's for not -- it's not abiding by the State law requiring certain financial requirements. JUDGE PERRI: Correct.
Not auto insurance, specifically not. 15 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664
Okay. So I'm asking -- JUDGE PERRI: And, Councilperson, I have a breakdown in the four districts that I'd like to move Live Stop into. In the year 2000, 3,804 --
Excuse me, Judge, I asked a question specifically related to the infractions -- JUDGE PERRI: Okay.
-- and the people whose vehicles were confiscated and the basis for their confiscation.
Who's getting the most stops here, unlicensed drivers or not registered? I think that was the Councilman's question. JUDGE PERRI: I don't think we have a breakdown for that.
All right, if your car gets confiscated for one of those four infractions but you don't have insurance -- and we understand what Councilman Kenney just said -- you 16 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 won't have insurance anyhow because your car's not registered and you don't have a license. So once you have their car -- I couldn't get my car anyhow because I didn't have insurance, right? JUDGE PERRI: Correct.
And you're not going to take it away from me 'cause I don't have insurance on a Live Stop, but you'll never give it back to me. JUDGE PERRI: We verify all insurance before we release a vehicle.
And you couldn't have insurance anyhow if you had a bad driver's license or your car wasn't registered. JUDGE PERRI: Correct.
If the vehicle 17 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 that's being driven does not have insurance and is a licensed driver driving that vehicle, 'cause there are cars out there that are not insured; I mean, that's just the reality, people find a way. Is that car then confiscated?
So if the person has valid license and that car is not insured --
And registration, then that vehicle is not confiscated. JUDGE PERRI: No. 15
All right. When was this amended in this state? JUDGE PERRI: I have no idea.
In '97, right? JUDGE PERRI: I have no idea. And the argument was, I think, at the time that the police had no way to verify insurance at 2 o'clock in the morning.
You could have 18 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 been, for example, have changed insurance companies and your car, it is now defunct in the old company and you're still waiting for the paperwork on the new company, it's not in the police computer and you don't have a card, there's no way to determine that you are in fact insured. So in an effort to keep that problem from having people -- that situation of having people's cars confiscated, they eliminated that requirement from the State act.
Okay. With respects to the actual stop, it is at the discretion of the police officer, or does that person have to be stopped for some issues? JUDGE PERRI: It's a probable cause.
It's a probable-cause issue? JUDGE PERRI: It could be expired inspection sticker, expired registration. It has to be some sort of probable cause, like going through a red light, a stop sign. And then all of that comes into play.
Some vehicle violation, a light out or something like that? 19 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 JUDGE PERRI: Yes, yes. Some probable cause to stop the violator.
Okay. So that person would have had to have been issued a ticket for the reason that they were stopped. JUDGE PERRI: Yes, absolutely.
In addition to the ultimate -- JUDGE PERRI: Absolutely.
-- confiscation of the vehicle -- JUDGE PERRI: Absolutely.
-- by virtue of them not having a license or registration. JUDGE PERRI: Right. And then they would have to come to Traffic Court and make arrangements to schedule a trial on those new tickets or old tickets and post a certain amount of collateral.
Mm-hmm. JUDGE PERRI: And after that's done, they post their collateral, they schedule their trial. We then verify insurance from registration and license. And once we do that, the judge 20 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 issues a release for that vehicle, and they go to the Parking Authority and pay whatever costs there are down here, and we give 'em the car back.
Mm-hmm, okay. JUDGE PERRI: And if I just may add, Councilman, in the four districts that I'd like to put the Live Stop into, in the year 2000, 3800 tickets were issued by the Philadelphia Police Department in those four districts that would have created these vehicles to be towed. I have that breakdown in each district.
And this is for the proposed -- how you want the -- JUDGE PERRI: Four districts in the Northeast.
The 2nd, the 15th, the 7th, and what was the other one? JUDGE PERRI: The 2nd, 15th, 7th and 8th.
All right. JUDGE PERRI: Every one of these 21 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 citations, if the Live Stop Program existed in those districts, would have caused the car to be towed.
All right,. Darrell? Councilman Clarke, you all right with these questions?
Thank you. Judge, one of the reasons that I understand that the 3rd, 4th, and 6th districts were selected in the first place was its proximity to the Parking Authority impoundment lot on Water Street or Swanson Street east of I-95 in South Philadelphia, that it made it easier for both the tow trucks to get to the scene, hook the car, take it back, and the officers themselves wouldn't be out of service for any extended length of time, extended more than a normal traffic stop. And the numbers, as I've seen them -- we'll ask the Police Department they testify -- that the numbers for the police officer on the scene from the time the car is stopped to the time the car is hooked and 22 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 towed is not extensively longer than normal traffic stops that take place normally. Where would you propose that in these expanded areas, and mostly in Northeast Philadelphia, would the cars be taken to? Would you think that they should be taken to the police impoundment lot -- I mean, the Parking Authority impoundment lot in South Philadelphia, or is there another location that you -- JUDGE PERRI: No. I am proposing to use a private tower, private storage area.
Okay. JUDGE PERRI: The private tower, he would get the cost that the Parking Authority gets now. That's my proposal. So I don't think there's any cost to the City of Philadelphia to move this program to four districts. Now, let me say this to you, Councilperson, we work with a limited staff in Boot and Tow. I mean, we have four employees right now doing boot and tow; they work very hard. I'm willing to expand this program and let my people work even harder to make the streets of Philadelphia safer. 23 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664
Again, understand, I support this program, and I think it should be done citywide right now. As you know, it is not a right to drive. JUDGE PERRI: Let me --
As you know, it is not a right to drive an automobile in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania; it is a privilege. And with that privilege, there are certain requirements: the financial responsibilities of having a valid license, having your car registered, having it insured. We have a vast mass transit system in this city. You can get to just about anywhere you need to get to in the City or the suburbs get by the use of mass transit. I did it until I was years of age, until my 18 father allowed me to buy a car when I could afford 19 to pay for insurance. 20 So it is -- alternate means of 21 transportation are definitely available to people in the City, and I believe that one of the major reasons why we have $1,000 on average higher insurance costs in Philadelphia than we do in the suburbs is because of the estimated 50 or 55,000 24 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 unlicensed drivers that cruise the streets in Philadelphia any day, any given day the week. The only concern that I have is that in order for this to move forward in an expeditious way, the City needs to cooperate with issues relative to the Philadelphia Police Department and also on issues relative to private towers on bonding, insurance, what the method is for the collection of the fines and towing costs that involve a private tower along with the Traffic Court, along with the Police Department. So I don't sense that the Administration is interested in pursuing this. As a matter of fact, Managing Director Martz testified at one of the budget hearings that the Administration did not believe that we should move forward with this unless Harrisburg gave us some form of auto insurance relief. Now, I guess the argument is, what comes first, the chicken or the egg?
Do we get the unlicensed drivers off the street and then go to 25 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 Harrisburg and argue for lower insurance rates, or do we wait for Harrisburg to lower insurance rates before we start towing cars? So those are just some of the issues that are out there. I fully support this program. I think it should be done in any neighborhood and every neighborhood in the City. If you are stopped with one of these four violations, you lose your car, period. And I think a number of things will happen: People will manage to find a way to live within the law. Police officers won't be wasting their time writing ticket after ticket for suspended licenses when people just basically rip them up and laugh and drive away. And I think the citizens would be safer in the City because a lot of the people that are basically scoffing at the law now are some of the people that are running red lights and stop signs and driving recklessly and perhaps have, you know, contraband and/or weapons in the cars. So -- that's not everyone, but I think the more stops we make, the more opportunity we have to interact with drivers in the City, the 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 better and safer the City will be. And I think we then have an argument to go to Harrisburg and say, Look, we've done our end, we've gotten these 50,000 drivers off the street, we've taken their cars. Now, what can you do to help us lower these insurance rates? At a thousand dollars a year more, it's something that drives -- it's one of the bricks on the load that drives people out of the City. When you sit down and try to figure out all of your additional costs for living in the City besides your wage tax and your private school tuition payments and the other things you have to make, that $1,000 insurance payment makes a big difference. So I applaud your efforts to move forward. However, I would try to figure out a way to get the Administration to cooperate, because I don't sense that they're interested in expanding this program.
Thank you, Councilman. JUDGE PERRI: Well, Councilman, if you look at the past, I think the head of the Parking 27 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 Authority, when you discussed moving this program further out to more districts, she wanted $15 million expand this program. And I think that scared you folks and the Mayor. If you look at my predecessor, she wanted 30 employees to expand this program. I'm saying to you today, it will cost not cents for me to do this program in four 10 more districts. Now, I'm not coming here and saying it's going to cost you a million dollars or $500,000 -- no money at all. I'm just going to have my staff work harder. I think people should be penalized. You folks gave Traffic Court these tools, and you won't let me use 'em.
But in fairness, Judge, one of the problems that we face both with the abandoned car vehicle removal program and with this Live Stop Program and going up to a private tow route, sadly, some of our towing companies in the City had difficulty meeting compliance with other requirements like their own insurance and licensed drivers and some of the things that these companies have engaged in. 28 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 So finding a company that was willing to stand up to the scrutiny and to stand up to the financial requirements to be involved in a program like this may not be as easy to find as we thought. I don't know what they do in suburbs, so maybe -- JUDGE PERRI: Councilman, I've already done my homework on that.
Great. JUDGE PERRI: I have someone in place: a legitimate, honest company who will provide enough insurance to cover every tow car, has the storage area, and I believe he's contracted to do other jobs with the City of Philadelphia.
Judge -- JUDGE PERRI: And I'm prepared to go forward and --
Judge, let me go on here a minute, 'cause we started on something but we got sidetracked. And the Councilman's right; the insurance lobby's never going to lower the cost of insurance unless we do what he says we need to do, and he's right, and you too. So we all agree pretty much here. 29 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 How much revenue can be gained? Let's talk about the positive cash flow. What kind of revenue do you project that will happen if this program is expanded to these other districts? JUDGE PERRI: For the City of Philadelphia?
Right. JUDGE PERRI: I'm going to say millions of dollars, Councilman. I mean, we have people out there driving who owe us 5, 10,000, $20,000 in traffic tickets. If you take their vehicle, they always show up and they want their car back.
So if we could save millions of dollars -- let's go with $2 million. How much would the City of Philadelphia get out of that $2 million? JUDGE PERRI: I would say you would probably see more than $2 million in the City Treasury. You get 48 percent of the fines and costs.
Yeah, but we don't get all of that million, right? JUDGE PERRI: You get -- no, I'm saying -- 30 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664
We get 48 percent of the -- (Unintelligible, parties talking over each other.) JUDGE PERRI: Even sharing it with Harrisburg.
Okay. JUDGE PERRI: They get 52, you get 48. That's my estimate, and I can only estimate. What has the -- I'll let Bobby explain how much money is taken in and --
Judge, before Bobby -- 'cause you might be able do this all at one thing. That's a good figure, but what does it cost to run this program as compared -- like, if we're getting 2 million and it's costing a million to run it, then we're only getting a million. JUDGE PERRI: I told you, it will cost you nothing.
It's not going to cost us anything extra? JUDGE PERRI: I didn't ask you for any money.
For anything 31 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 extra. JUDGE PERRI: No. We're going to work harder.
You're coming here and you don't want any extra money. JUDGE PERRI: No. We're going to work harder, Councilman.
You're not going to take a collection or anything? JUDGE PERRI: No. This young lady will work very hard with her three employees. In the future, I may have to add two employees to her department, but we can do it, we're prepared to do it. And you gave us the tools; let us use them. That's all I'm saying.
And if you use an independent tower or whatever you're looking at to use -- JUDGE PERRI: He's -- there's no cost to the City.
There's no expense for him, he gets his piece off the people. JUDGE PERRI: He gets paid for the 32 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 storage of the vehicle, he gets paid for towing the vehicle from the owner of the vehicle, or the car is not released. He then will -- he will do the auction on the vehicles he tows. The City of Philadelphia will get a percentage of that money from the auctions. I mean, I have it all broke down. I've been working two months on this, Councilman.
So, Judge, we've been working on this for four or five years, some of us, and it always gets to the point where it's money. And these may seem like repetitive questions, but -- JUDGE PERRI: Well, that's why I'm coming here and --
Judge, Judge, you got to let me finish. JUDGE PERRI: All right. I'm sorry.
And we're glad you're here, you got your new cowboy boots on, we're all excited. 33 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 But there is no negative flat cash flow to the City of Philadelphia. I want that repeated because I want everybody to -- JUDGE PERRI: I see no cost at all to the City of Philadelphia to expand this program. In fact, the City of Philadelphia will realize more revenue in the City Treasury.
That's beautiful, that's a good thing. Any other questions for the Judge, or any others?
Your Honor, I just did brief math, and I hope this is correct. On the first five lists on the Live Stop, I added up a little more than 2400 vehicles that were confiscated. And out of that, 1900 of those vehicles, the zip codes were in North Philadelphia. Do you have a sense of why that may be? Has any analysis been done on that? Is it that the people in North Philly -- they don't -- nobody in North Philly has a driver's license or 34 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 registration or -- JUDGE PERRI: I couldn't answer that, why they do it.
I'm just wondering, you know, 'cause it's a substantial number out of the first five, where 1900 out of 2400 come from North Philadelphia. JUDGE PERRI: But I think --
And it's based on the discretion of the police officer to stop these people, and I'm just wondering if this just a coincidence or -- JUDGE PERRI: Well, very frankly, every time I do a boot-and-tow case, there is probable cause -- you know, the tag's expired, the inspection's expired, the lights are out, they go through a red light, and they're stopped by the police. But I think if you see the program expanded to, say, the 15th Police District, which is in Northeast Philadelphia, my district, you will see the same statistics.
So you mean the people from North Philly will then be 35 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 (inaudible). Is it that the people in North Philly, they just, like, kind of drive all over and they get stopped and. . . JUDGE PERRI: Very frankly 'cause I just -- I'm sorry, I didn't hear your question.
You know, you said there will be the same statistics. So you're saying that if you expand the program, move it up to the Northeast, then these same people from North Philly will -- JUDGE PERRI: Well, no, no, no, I'm sorry. I said that wrong, I'm sorry. I thought you had said something else to me. No. 15 But another statistic we have here, in the year 2000, 44 percent of the tickets written in the 15th Police District, people had suspended licenses, and we didn't take their cars; or no 19 license, and we didn't take those cars. So those people just got tickets, they continue to get the same tickets, they continue to drive a car, they continue to go to Traffic Court, and millions and millions of dollars, and we're not doing anything about it.
All right, I 36 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 understand what the statistics are. I'm just, you know, looking at the analysis of why so many people -- JUDGE PERRI: I agree with you.
And maybe I need to figure out a way to do something. I think three of these zip codes are actually in my Councilmatic District, three of the first five. And if there's something going on there, where, for some reason, people don't have a driver's license, you know, maybe I need to look at what we need to do to resolve that other -- maybe other than or in addition to taking their vehicles. I've received some information as it relates to suspensions and whereas a person may actually get their license suspended for 18 years. And I've heard that that's some of the 19 enforcement that has been given out at Traffic 20 Court. JUDGE PERRI: Suspended for 20 years?
For 20 years, yeah. And I'm like -- JUDGE PERRI: Well, if you get certain citations driving on a suspended license and 37 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 you're convicted of that, it's an automatic year's suspension. So if you get of 'em and you're 4 convicted, you may be suspended for 20 years. 5
All right. 6 JUDGE PERRI: But, I mean, there are 7 appeal routes for folks. I mean, you can take an 8 appeal on those convictions to the Court of Common 9 Pleas. A Common Pleas Court judge could then 10 amend that conviction to a lesser charge. 11 A lot of folks could be restored; they 12 don't make the effort. Normally, you would need 13 an attorney to do that, but it's being done 14 hundreds of times in the Court of Common Pleas. 15
Mm-hmm. Would it 16 be possible -- and I know obviously you can't get 17 me this information now, but would it be possible 18 for me to get information on the tickets that were 19 issued as a result of a non-insured vehicle? 20 JUDGE PERRI: You mean the probable- cause stop, why the vehicle was stopped originally?
Well, I mean, nobody knows what's in the mind of a police officer, so I can't get that. I'm just trying to 38 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 get a sense of how many of these tickets were issued that ultimately caused the confiscation of a vehicle. JUDGE PERRI: In the districts that exist now?
Well, just generally, 'cause, you know, I have some statistics on insurance, and frankly, it's rather appalling, the information that I've received as it relates to the insurance of Philadelphia versus the surrounding counties, and we're more than double the cost, but yet our claims and the losses on bodily injury claims has dropped substantially, almost percent, auto thefts have dropped 30 16 percent. Yet that's not reflected in the 17 automobile insurance rates, and I'm trying to get 18 a sense as to, you know, how many people ended up 19 getting tickets because they were stopped for 20 whatever reason and they didn't have insurance and 21 you got a ticket for not having insurance. 22 JUDGE PERRI: We don't have insurance 23 statistics. 24
Do you have any 25 idea where I may be able to get that from? 39 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 (Judge Perri confers with colleague off the record.)
Mr. Chairman, could I just ask a question while they're looking for that for the Councilman?
Is there anyone here from the Administration that's been studying apparently the issue of auto insurance reform in the Commonwealth? I think Susan Schulman (ph.) was in charge of the Mayor's Task Force on Auto Insurance Reform. Is there anyone here that perhaps could give us some enlightenment as to auto insurance rates and trends, both in the region of Philadelphia and around the Commonwealth? (No response.)
It looks like she's not here. Maybe we can get her up here.
Can we get a request that someone -- if not her, someone from that task force be present to at least enlighten us as to what it is they're doing?
We'll get someone. 40 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 JUDGE PERRI: Councilman, I can answer your question; we do have a breakdown on insurance violations. In the year 2000, the Police Department wrote 47,907 tickets for not having insurance.
I'm sorry, I was distracted by my crack staff person. JUDGE PERRI: In the year 2000, the Police Department wrote over 47,000 citations for not having insurance.
No insurance. Okay, thank you. JUDGE PERRI: And we can give you a copy of that.
I've just been informed that Miss Schulman is running for judge, so we may not be able to track her down today. All right, I'm fine. Thank you, 41 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 Mr. Chairman.
Any other questions for this witness? Councilman Kenney.
I just want the record to reflect that -- and I don't want to make it look as if anybody's picking on North Philly, because I just added up the South Philly numbers. For 48, 47, 46, and 45, it's about 929, so it's not 1400, but it's not that far off. And I think that of the 7,523 confiscation, 1400 in North Philadelphia and 900 in South Philadelphia, it seems that throughout the course of the City, they seem to be pretty well spread around. I mean, there's representation from every area of the City, even though the top five go from 566 to 422, the next 15 or 20 are still above 120. So, I mean, although it does drop from 4-0 down to 120, from 19140 zip code to 19147, there's still substantial numbers of automobiles being towed from residents -- or away from residents that are living in other areas of Philadelphia. And the area where myself and Council President Verna lives and Councilman 42 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 DiCicco lives is almost cracking 1,000. So, I mean, I think it's -- even though there may be a higher number north, there's still substantially higher numbers in the rest of the City.
Judge, also on that question, are we stopping anybody that doesn't live in the City of Philadelphia for these things? JUDGE PERRI: Sure, sure.
Do you happen to have any stats on that, nonresidents? (Unintelligible, parties talking over each other.) JUDGE PERRI: By the way, Councilman, we get a lot of vehicles from South Street that are towed down there.
There's nobody from Washington Township, is there? JUDGE PERRI: I'm not sure.
I just want to make sure the record's clear that no one from 43 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 Washington Township was towed off of South Street. JUDGE PERRI: Yeah, we get 'em from all over, not just the City of Philadelphia.
Now, these are statistics from the non-Philadelphia residents, correct?
Councilman, these include both. These are all of the zip codes that were involved in a Live Stop. We just extract the Philadelphia number.
Okay. What's Washington Township's zip code, Councilman Kenney? Any other questions for these witnesses? Councilman? Any more questions for these witnesses? (No further questions.)
The next panel is -- JUDGE PERRI: Thank you very much for hearing us out.
Chief Inspector Bullick, from the Philadelphia Police Department. Florida. (Witness come forward.)
State your name for the record. INSPECTOR BULLICK: Good morning, Madam President and City Council members.
Good morning. INSPECTOR BULLICK: My name's Chief Inspector Richard Bullick, B-U-L-L-I-C-K. I'm in charge of the Automotive Services Bureau for the Police Department. I want to thank you for inviting me here and voicing some of the concerns that the City Police Department may have. I've brought a couple of people with me. My sergeant, Sergeant Bea (ph.), and Special Advisor to the Police Commissioner, Fran Healy (ph.). I'm not sure, did they give this out?
We have your revised testimony. INSPECTOR BULLICK: Okay. I got to be careful what I say 'cause it sounds like 45 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 Councilman Kenney knows more about this than I do. (Laughter.) INSPECTOR BULLICK: All right. As you're aware, the Live Stop Program is cooperation between several local agencies -- and that's the Traffic Court, the Philadelphia Police Department, and the Parking Authority. It is my opinion that the actual success of this current program has been directly attributed to the limited size of the scope. The program was initiated several years ago and currently operates in the 3rd, 4th, and the 6th police districts. It also right now is into the 25th district, a portion of the Operation Sunrise, we're in there now. We also do the expressways and the extensions -- that's 95, Woodhaven Road, the Schuylkill. We also do portions of Delaware Avenue, where the clubs are. The three districts that -- in fact, most of Center City portions of the upper South Philadelphia. In the year 2000, we did 3500 cars. Notably, one of the most important aspects of the current program is that individuals are stopped for the program that not -- and not 46 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 detained for a long period of time. When the car is going to be seized, it takes approximately 30 minutes for the tow truck to get there and to have this stop handled, the initial stop, when the car is ultimately towed. Not that -- not only does this quick response free the police officers; it doesn't detain the person for a long period of time and keep 'em an unreasonably long period of time. It is my understanding that the Parking Authority does not currently have the equipment resources or efficiency to implement this citywide program while continuing to meet the normal operations of its duties. Expanding the program citywide perform without the comprehensive evaluation and the available resources and potential requirements for success would currently overwhelm the capacity of the Parking Authority and preclude the ability and efficiencies (indiscernible) to seize these cars in a timely manner. In conclusion, please let me state that I support the expansion of Live Stop in theory. However, issues such as cost, capacity, resources, and equipment must first be addressed. 47 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 On behalf of the Police Commissioner Timoney, I would like to thank the Councilmembers. If you have any questions--
Thank you, Inspector. I have a couple questions. INSPECTOR BULLICK: Feel free.
Did you ever go to law school? INSPECTOR BULLICK: No, no. 11
You're starting to sound like a lawyer, Chief Inspector. INSPECTOR BULLICK: It's "Chief Inspector," that's -- (Unintelligible, parties talking over each other.)
That's all right, I appreciate that. You heard Judge Perri sit there and say this would be at no extra cost to the City, this program, right? INSPECTOR BULLICK: Right.
Have you had a chance to talk to him about how he's going to work that just by expanding it to three more police 48 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 districts and use a private tower? INSPECTOR BULLICK: We haven't talked personally about it.
Okay. Does anyone on -- does Mr. Healy or Sergeant Bea? UNIDENTIFIED WITNESS: We haven't spoken to the Judge.
Do you know what tower he's talking about? As I understand it, it's the same one that you guys already -- INSPECTOR BULLICK: I'm pretty sure it's the same one --
You currently use -- INSPECTOR BULLICK: I'm in charge of the Abandoned Auto Unit, as I'm sure you know.
Yeah. INSPECTOR BULLICK: And I believe there's one or two of those gentlemen. And if it's who I have in mind, he's outstanding.
I mean, I don't want to go through procedures and all, but you haven't had any problem with them. INSPECTOR BULLICK: No. 49 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664
And he'd be probably fully capable of doing this stuff, getting out there and doing this in 30 minutes and all of that. INSPECTOR BULLICK: Right.
Chief Inspector, I know that many of the cars that are towed as a part of the abandoned vehicle removal process are cars that are perhaps not worth anything. They may be, originally, in the beginning of the program, shells of cars, burned-out cars that we kind of -- just kind of sold for scrap, I guess. This phase of the program, how many of these cars that are taken off the street today on the abandoned vehicle side are workable -- have cars with some value? Can you give me just an anecdotal -- INSPECTOR BULLICK: The percentage, I would say probably 50 percent.
50 percent. And the tower that you guys use now, the Police Department uses now, stores those cars? 50 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 INSPECTOR BULLICK: There's different towers.
And they store the 5 cars on their own facilities -- 6 INSPECTOR BULLICK: (Inaudible.) 7
-- for potential 8 redemption by the owner? 9 INSPECTOR BULLICK: That's correct. 10
And what are the 11 requirements for redemption? When an individual's 12 car is towed and they go to "ABC Towing Company," 13 for argument's sake, what do they have to do to 14 get their cars back? 15 INSPECTOR BULLICK: First they come to 16 our unit to get a release. They must have 17 registration, they must have the car insured and a 18 driver's license. 19
So it's similar to what is being required now in order -- INSPECTOR BULLICK: But you have to be legal just to --
So in order -- so the same requirements, criteria that's being required now to get your car from the impoundment 51 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 lot in the Parking Authority are the same things that you need to provide to redeem your car from a private tower in the abandoned auto detail. INSPECTOR BULLICK: That's correct.
Okay. Has there been any complaints or many complaints that you're aware of with the use of private towers? When people say, Well, you know, you took my car but it didn't have this dent in it but now it does, and what's the mechanism to resolve those issues? 'Cause I understand that one of the concerns about expanding Live Stop is that if we go to a private tow scheme, that people have their cars towed and say, Well, you know what, that bumper wasn't hanging off that car when you towed it and now I want you to pay for it 'cause you damaged it. What kind of experience do we have in dealing with private companies as it relates to those kind of complaints? INSPECTOR BULLICK: On the abandoned auto side, we had since the beginning, naturally, all of the salvers are insured, I believe, for a million dollars. And my thing that I've always 52 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 said to the salvers and to the public is, there will be mistakes made. If they have problems, we're going to make you whole. And so far, the salvers have made 'em whole if there was a problem with that.
So, I mean, without making any specific comment, half of the department, as it relates to the expansion of Live Stop, do you believe that the mechanisms currently in place relative to the abandoned vehicle program could possibly be utilized in any type of expansion of Live Stop? Do you think that it's asking these private companies to go beyond what they're capable of doing? INSPECTOR BULLICK: I don't believe it's beyond what they're capable of, but I think there may be other issues. Fran?
I mean, just from a practical approach, not from a policy approach, not from a government policy approach, 'cause I know you're not speaking for government policy. Just from a day-to-day, nuts-and-bolts, get-it-done approach, do you think that the 53 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 capacity's there for these individuals, or some or all of these individuals to be involved in this program? INSPECTOR BULLICK: I don't know if it goes citywide but maybe to expand it perhaps.
Inspector, on Councilman Kenney's question, what about these three districts that Judge Perri was talking about? Is that in the scope of this happening? INSPECTOR BULLICK: One thing I asked the judge on the way out was, when he has the zip codes, was that where they got stopped, or is that where the individual lived?
I thought it was where the individual lived. INSPECTOR BULLICK: So, I mean, I could stop you at Grant and the Boulevard, and if you're from North Philadelphia, it's going to show that more people from North Philadelphia --
If we did expand this into four more police districts, it would probably have something to do with your abandoned 54 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 vehicle. You know, it would probably get under there. I mean, I'm not making policy for the Police Department. But would you need more personnel for this operation, or do you think that you could handle it with just Sergeant Bea? INSPECTOR BULLICK: Sergeant Bea's doing a heck of a job.
I've known him all his life. He's a good guy. INSPECTOR BULLICK: I don't think there would be a major difference because the officers would be working out of the district. There would be the 911 answers.
But this is more of a question for Mr. Healy, it's a legal question for you. You did go to law school, right?
All right, thank you. Has there been any litigation to the Department about the enforcement of the current Live Stop that we're doing in the four districts, 55 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 not counting the 25th?
You can tell he went to law school. (Laughter.) (Unintelligible, parties talking over each other.)
This is probably for you, Inspector. If the City doesn't enforce the confiscation of this program, and this might be your program, Mr. Healy, can the State police come in and do this?
I would believe the State police have equal authority to enforce the State law, yes.
Not that we would want them to do this; I just want everybody to know this for the record. But, you know, it's getting close, and I know we really want this to get done. If the State police runs the program, would they -- they would incur all of the revenue from this, and we would get none possibly. Is that safe -- am I safe in saying that? 56 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664
And so if we can get over the actual the concerns that Councilman Clarke has, and they're legitimate concerns 'cause I hear what he's saying and we've talked about this, but is there a way that we could possibly establish a rolling Live Stop Program? Maybe not do it citywide, but we could do the four districts the Judge is talking about for a while, and I think the judge has a reason for them four districts. I would venture to gain he thinks they're going to get some cars that are worth a lot more money. This is my uneducated guess, but that are worth a lot more money than we're getting from the other districts.
Well, when we introduced the Live Stop Program, we did it on a rolling basis; it did roll through the City at certain points.
I think it hit almost every district. INSPECTOR BULLICK: We did 57 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 demonstration days once a week, I think, at different districts.
Logistics-wise, 5 Inspector, was that a problem? 6 INSPECTOR BULLICK: No. 7
Because we were -- 8 INSPECTOR BULLICK: But we were doing 9 one at a time. 10
Right, right. We 11 weren't doing one and a bunch of other ones. 12 Okay, I don't have any other questions 13 for these witnesses. Does anyone else have any 14 questions for these witnesses? Darrell? 15
All right, thank 17 you. Thanks for coming, thanks for your 18 inconvenience. 19 INSPECTOR BULLICK: Thank you. 20
Gerry Lamparter, 21 Traffic Safety Activist. 22 (Witness comes forward.) 23
My name's Gerald Lamparter, and the last name is spelled L-A-M-P-A-R-T-E-R. I'm a public safety activist 58 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 who specializes in traffic issues. The subject of vehicle impoundment has been my number-one focus for the past nine years. First I want to speak about how we negatively impact ourselves by not enforcing the impoundment law, and then I want to propose a plan that is a compromise between full enforcement of the law and we're doing what now. The lack of vehicle impoundment law enforcement encourages unlicensed and dangerous drivers to continue their illegal and careless driving habits because they know they can't be punished. It's as if they've been granted immunity from obeying our traffic laws. Many of them use phony names when they're stopped by police for committing traffic violations. In Philadelphia in 1998, 220,000 tickets were issued to phony names. Last week, I listened to my scanner radio as a Northeast cop ticketed a man who has never had a driver's license, but he already had 11 unpaid tickets on his record. After the officer issued more tickets to him, the man was permitted to drive away. Another driver who was stopped by police had had 59 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 his license suspended since 1989 for a drunk- driving. He, too, was simply ticketed and allowed to drive away. In Pennsylvania motorists who don't have valid licenses are times more likely to be 7 involved in fatal crashes than licensed drivers. 8 Why? Because they are unsafe, careless drivers. 9 Many people feel that our insurance 10 rates are too high, and that's why tens of 11 thousands of Philadelphians drive without auto 12 insurance. I believe there are ways our rates can 13 be reduced, but we cannot expect our rates to drop 14 in Philadelphia if we're not enforcing our traffic laws. Auto insurance will never be affordable for every person who wants to drive, and even if people could buy insurance for only $100 a year, there would still be many drivers who wouldn't buy it. Look at how many people won't spend $2 to replace the dead batteries in their smoke detectors. I'm sure that many of the illegal drivers who say they can't afford insurance have received so many tickets for running red lights and stop signs and for speeding, that their rates 60 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 would be so high that few people could afford to pay them anyway. But that's their own doing. But the issue of vehicle impoundment law enforcement is far more important to each of us than just dealing with uninsured motorists. Performing traffic stops is an extremely important crime-fighting tool for the police, but here in Philadelphia, the motivation to do traffic stops is greatly reduced because issuing so many worthless traffic tickets is very demoralizing to the police officers. About ten years ago, New York City police started arresting people who, rather than paying the transit fare, jumped over the turnstiles in the subway stations. Some people questioned why the Police Department would waste its time on such a petty offense, but when the police arrested these people, they found that 20 percent or more of these turnstile jumpers were wanted criminals and were carrying illegal drugs or weapons at the time of their arrest. Fortunately for us law-abiding people, most criminals have one particular thing in common: They do stupid things to draw attention 61 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 to themselves, and it seems that nowhere are these stupid things more prevalent than when they're driving away in a vehicle after they have committed a crime. This past February late at night, police officers made a traffic stop on a car that was being driven with its lights off. It turned out that the man inside had murdered a woman six hours before they were apprehended.
A police officer stopped the car because the license plate was in the window, which is a violation of traffic laws; it should have been mounted in the usual place, on the rear of the vehicle. When the officer looked into the back seat of the vehicle after he stopped it, he saw a Dunkin' Donuts bank deposit bag that was taken in a robbery and murder 15 minutes before. Had he not made the traffic stop, he would not have apprehended those people. By not allowing our police to vigorously enforce the vehicle impoundment law and our other traffic laws, we are helping criminals to be mobile during their criminal activities. Normally a police officer cannot search 62 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 a vehicle during a traffic stop. However, when a vehicle is impounded, an inventory search is made the police officer in the presence of the driver to protect the City against accusations that any belongings left in the vehicle at the time of impoundment are missing later if and when the vehicle is returned to the owner. Common sense would dictate that some illegal guns and drugs may be found in some of these vehicles. In comparison to the almost total absence of vehicle impoundment law enforcement that we have now, I have a proposal for a temporary plan that I believe will be a win-win situation for everyone, except the dangerous drivers. The intent of my proposal is to impound the vehicles driven by drivers who have lost their licenses due to not paying their traffic tickets and/or lost their licenses due to their histories of driving dangerously -- running red lights, stop signs, speeding, DUI convictions, and so on. Since it's unlikely that these drivers will have auto insurance when each of these cars is impounded, it will also be another uninsured vehicle taken off the road. Vehicles should also 63 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 be impounded when no driver's license record can be found during a traffic stop because the driver has either given a phony name to the police officer or the driver has never had a license. However, when dealing with a driver whose license is suspended only for having been caught driving an uninsured vehicle, but he has no 9 ticket for careless driving violations and he has no outstanding tickets, do not impound the vehicle; just ticket the person for driving without a license and without insurance. That's really no worse than we're doing in most of the City now anyway. While my proposal is only a partial enforcement of the law and it's not a cure-all for the uninsured-driver problem, it's far better than what we're doing now. Since we seem to be unable to tackle the entire uninsured-motorist problem at this time, let's at least constructively attack the worst part of it and work toward reducing the number of crashes. Thank you.
Thank you. Any questions for this witness? 64 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664
I really appreciate your testimony. However, did I understand you to say that if someone is driving with a suspended license, we should simply give them another ticket? Is that what I heard you say?
If the suspended license -- if the cause for it was because they were found previously driving without insurance.
We heard 14 somebody mention the fact that somebody had 20 15 suspensions and was still driving, which meant 16 that he had to be stopped 20 times and charged 17 with driving with a suspended license. 18
Well, I think it 19 was that he couldn't get his license for 20 years 20 'cause every time he got stopped, it's a year, so he got stopped 20 times and --
Well, in that case, he has a suspended license for a dangerous violation, 65 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 which is driving with a suspended license. If I chose to drive without insurance because I say I can't afford it, and I'm stopped for a violation, I would pay my tickets, and I would serve the suspension. So at the end of the suspension, I can get my driver's license back. But if I choose to continue driving on that suspended license, then I should have the vehicle taken away. In other words, the person's not being responsible for the tickets he's gotten.
Any other questions for this witness? (No further questions.)
Seeing none, the next witness is Joan Pfaehler. Did I say that right, Joan? Thank you. Thank you Mr. Lamparter. (Witness comes forward.)
Good morning. Thank you for allowing me to appear today. I appreciate this opportunity.
Can you state your 66 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 name and spell it for the stenographer.
Oh, yes. It's Joan Pfaehler, P-F-A-E-H-L-E-R. I just wanted to express my feelings today with regard to the impoundment law against those that are driving without valid driver's licenses. If you saw yesterday's Daily News, you may have seen this article. These are my parents, Violet and Harry Young. On October 18, 1999, at 12 noon, my father was crossing Academy and Grant Roads to go get a loaf of bread for my mother. At that time, he was hit by a car. The driver, Shannon Burke, did not have a valid driver's license. She had three prior offenses, and since that accident, has had two more offenses and owes your City of Philadelphia $3,000 in fines. My father was taken to Frankford Torresdale Division. He was diagnosed with brain trauma and a blood clot. From Frankford Torresdale, he went into a nursing home where spent the next seven months and just went downhill, and he passed away in May of that year. My mother was a emotionally affected by this, and 67 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 two weeks after my father's death, I ended up putting her in the same nursing home. My mother never attended my father's funeral; she was not emotionally able to, she just totally shut down. Since that time of the accident, we have spent $72,000 of my parents' hard-earned money. My mother and father were married years 9 before they could afford a down payment on a home. 10 They lived in Pennypack Woods, which is a housing 11 development in the Northeast, for 12 years. 12 I hear -- I understand that many people say, Well, I can't afford car insurance, so we drive without it. Well, that's sad. My parents worked long and hard. And you were 21, Councilman, until you could get your car and have insurance. Gentlemen, you've got to take these people off the street, these unlicensed drivers. Have them pay their fines, as our judge wants them to do. This has been a very, very difficult time for our family. And if there's anything that I can say today to you people is you've got to do something more than is being done now. 68 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 Thank you.
Thank you. Any questions for this witness? (No questions.)
Seeing none, thank you. And thank you for coming down, we appreciate it. Mr. Thomas Carbine. (Witnesses come forward.)
Mr. Carbine. State your name and spell it for the record and that of your colleagues with you.
My name is Dominic J. Carbine, and I have a business in Philadelphia. I am also a member of the American Street Business Association, and we have a committee that meets monthly in connection with the police. And on that committee, we have Jordan Lepow. L-E-P-O-W is his last name, Jordan Lepow, and he's at Fifth Street Auto Parts, at 3101 North Fifth. And the Executive Director of our business association is 69 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 Raymond Jones, and he's located at the Impact Services, headquarters up in North Philadelphia. At our monthly meeting, which we have jointly with the police, we have been fortunate to make a few suggestions which have been to the benefit of the City of Philadelphia. And one of them was that the fact that abandoned cars should be removed. And from that activity, you will probably recall -- have had it brought to your attention that the Mayor of Philadelphia thought it was a great idea and supported that suggestion. The new mayor of Philadelphia came along, he loved the idea, it was a good suggestion. And there were a -- they counted up about 30,000 cars that they removed from our section. Since then, they've continued the activity and they're adding more. Because, really, it's a dumping ground in the East Division. And there's -- an effort's been made to try to change the perception of what individuals who don't live in the area can do easily if they have accepted a suggestion and a mission to abandon the car. It's very simple: drive it up 70 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 there, jump out, take the el, and you're out of town. And so, in an effort to try to accomplish a couple of problems that we have, one of them is with the chop shops, which survive and thrive in our area, and which you occasionally read about. They're major activities. The neighbors know that it's going on but they are reluctant to speak up because they don't want the retaliation. So we have to approach the problem in a different way. So these are matters which we have suggested -- have discussed at our meetings. And it was -- finally, the 25th Division came up with an idea, and that is that if we could use some kind of a pilot program with regard to Live Stop, which is permitted under the laws of the State of Pennsylvania and the City of Philadelphia, where we would, at the time of a traffic infraction, ask for the proper credentials that include the license and registration. And the thought was that if they did not produce those credentials, that the car would be seized then, that the person would be put on the sidewalk, and this person would be -- then have a more of a 71 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 problem about getting himself back to where he came from. We thought that that might be worth pursuing, and so we called it a pilot program for Live Stop. That program was discussed with the Managing Director's Office, and the suggestion that the Parking Authority make available their tow truck because they have all the facilities. So that on planned occasions throughout the East Division, there would be Live Stop activity. The concept was that the -- through the Parking Authority, it would mean maybe 10, hours a week 14 that would be devoted to this, possibly on three 15 separate nights. m. m. Their considered opinion is that that's the time of the day or the evening or the night when things are happening that result in the chop shops being supplied with the cars that they need to meet the orders that they have for parts, etc. So -- but after much effort, the police said to us, We're not making any progress whatsoever at the administrative level of the City, and we're asking you as businessmen, would 72 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 you try to bring to the attention of the persons who are most concerned that the business people would like to see this pilot program, this pilot Live Stop Program implemented. And it's with that in mind that I'm here today.
And in this connection, as you hear about the various things that are going on in the City, the question that comes up is costs and what are we going to get out of the it and what's it going to cost us and so on. Right now, there's one thing that's happening up there in the area which is -- you will see obviously it's costing the City, and that's the transaction of these so-called used cars which take place on the street. And I've asked Jordan Lepow to come with me because he's in the business of being a legitimate car dealer. " So that he finds that it's rather strange that the City doesn't seem to be interested in the fact that the transactions are taking place and that the City is losing a portion of the transaction, which would be under the 73 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. " The State, of course, is losing it as well.
Excuse me, Mr. Carbine. Is this the gentleman you're talking about?
Thank you. My name is Jordan Lepow. I'm the coordinator for Fifth Street Auto Parts and Allegheny Auto Parts. We've been located in North Philadelphia for approximately 74 years. I have 47 years in the business, and I know most of the phases and most of the problems that are occurring in the 25th Police District. It's very difficult to operate our business in the area, the reason being that we're not allowed to keep our cars out on the street, 74 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 we're not allowed to keep them on the pavement; yet, we have a parking lot license, I have a dealer's license, I have bonds from the State bonding insurance. Everything we need we have. And then 200 feet away, a man has 7 cars on the street they do ticket the cars, but 8 the cars are not in his name. He buys them at the auctions. It's in someone's name. He never gets a ticket. He sells the cars. In the last five days, the police made me remove my cars. He has sold nine cars; I have sold none. Now, we've been there 74 years. The problem also, besides I'm not selling cars, the City is losing a lot of money, and they don't realize it. Go after the unauthorized dealers who are selling the 2, 3, $400. Therefore, you couldn't have the people walking without insurance, without tags, without stickers, without anything. The legitimate dealers -- if I sold the car whenever, we take the customer to the notary. He produces a driver's license. We get a copy of the license. He must have insurance. We get a copy of insurance. And we sell the car. 75 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 They come into me, how much is the car? $500. That's fine, I'll buy it. Don't forget, we have tax, transfer -- oh, no, we don't pay that. They go up the street, and I see them buy the car, waves bye and waves at me and I say, How you doing? Now, if you want to stop the problem, Live Stop is wonderful. You'll probably get 1 percent if you're lucky off the road. Every day, they probably sell 200 cars in Philadelphia without insurance, without tags, without inspection, without anything, open titles. And no 14 revenue to the State of Pennsylvania and the City of Philadelphia.
Take care of these people, get them off the street. Now the buyer can't go to the man on the street. They go to (indiscernible) twice a week and buy 6 or 700 cars. I'm surrounded by them. And they go every week. They can make $50, $100. I pay insurance of 32,000 a year for my car license. I cannot compete, I have to collect the tags, and there's no challenge for them. 76 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 The honest businessman, again, gets the short end of the stick, and it's very upsetting.
I wanted to add something, that the police are aware of what Jordan is telling you. And they would like to have a Live Stop in that area so that as soon as somebody buys the car and they go to the next corner, they'll be stopped.
Excuse me, are we talking about 25th Police District?
So if you could 77 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 coordinate with that captain in that district and tell him that information, we'll do that.
Well, my information came from the 25th, but what I'm saying to you is that what Jordan is talking about can be stopped. That's the point.
Thank you. Councilman Clarke, do you have some questions?
Yes, yes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just wanted to indicate to the gentlemen that you raise a very interesting issue. I recently had to take my daughter to buy a vehicle, and before she was allowed to take that vehicle away from that dealer, she was required to show proof of insurance. They tried -- my daughter attempted to call her insurance company and talk about it over the phone, but that person said, Until you actually show me the insurance policy, you are not taking this vehicle. So I agree with you. The question I have of you, these particular dealers, I'm assuming a lot of them do 'em out of their homes 78 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 or as brokers or things of that nature. Are they required to have any licensing whatsoever?
In the State of Pennsylvania, you must be a registered car dealer, you must be bonded by the State, you must have a salesman's license, which I do carry.
How many cars do you got to sell a year to have to have that, though? I mean, if I sell two cars to Darrell, is there a fee?
I would imagine -- I believe you can't title more than three cars a year in your name. Don't quote me on that.
But I would imagine, knowing how people are, Darrell's got a car, he wants to get rid of it, I take the car, I say, Darrell, don't sign that thing so it's still in your name. It's never in my name. I sell it to Council President Verna, and she puts it in her name. And if Darrell is willing to do that, that's probably how it works.
That eliminates 79 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 all of that. I'm sorry, Councilman.
Is that the notary? 'Cause in this particular instance, the notary was the person who required that the proof of insurance, the person actually did the workup 'cause it was a broker involved, and I'm --
And what you're saying, Councilman, it never goes to the notary.
Mm-hmm. So they don't even bother to notarize the -- (Unintelligible, parties talking over each other.)
Also, I have I have two -- I own also two auto wrecking businesses where we stock approximately 1500 cars, and we buy naturally quite a few cars. And you'd be amazed how many cars that come in, there's seven names on the title. I say, Are you the owner of the car? Yes. Let me see your title. And they produce the title. I say, Let me see your driver's license. This is owner number 2, this is owner number 5.
So if the scenario I have, if Darrell's name on the thing and I take the Council President to an auto tag, if the notary or whoever's doing the switch says, Wait a second, you're not Darrell Clarke, you look like him, but you're not him, I mean, that could stop it right there, right?
I see them on the street changing cash. It's very upsetting and I --
So then we're back to the point where we have unregistered and unlicensed cars that are driving around.
Yeah. Let me give you another -- a true example that happened Friday. There was a Live Stop that happened in front of my place. Two police officers in a wagon stopped a car, and I knew they head him because I've been 81 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 around too many years. Sure enough, they waited an hour and a half for a Philadelphia police truck to arrive, and he took the car away. That patrol car was out of action for one hour and 30 minutes on a Live Stop, which is better than not having no 7 stop. But I think we can implement the program that way, plus going after the unregistered dealers. Most of the cars that they are stopping are one step above a junker -- 3, $400 cars. They don't go for the cars.
What are they using for tags if they're driving around the streets with --
They use anything you can possibly think of, from stolen tags -- what they usually do, they originally have had a tag.
And they just keep 82 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 using it.
They just keep using the same tag. If you check the stickers, they'll be 1997, 1998 and never renewed them, and they're not stopped.
Who regulates that? Is it PennDOT that regulates the sellers of vehicles? Is it a division of PennDOT?
And Transportation sets rules and regulations, but as far as enforcement, probably 99 percent are not enforced.
Is there a division who is supposed to enforce it, or we just don't have --
I'm sorry, the Philadelphia police. When they do their job they do, and you heard the results, 202,000 tickets were issued 83 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 that people didn't have licenses.
Well, let me ask you a scenario. There's a person in the neighborhood that sells these cars, has the cars lined up and he had a for-sale sticker in the car, has no noticeable business in terms of a building, in terms of signage. And I, "Joe Q. Citizen," I have a concern about this person selling these cars on block. Who do I call to get somebody to come out and enforce this?
I don't know. We've called the police many times, and they're still there. So I don't know who you would call. All I do know is, last week, I had three tickets for parking my own cars in front of my own door, $60, and the fellow around the corner got 9 tickets and he's not even a dealer.
I mean, I'm assuming that it may not be the Police Department's responsibility to investigate a potentially nonactive type of activity. I'm saying these vehicles are just sitting there, they have these for-sale signs, there's no noticeable business, but the people in the neighborhood knows 84 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 that the guy in this particular house is the one that's selling them.
And I'm just trying to get a sense of who would be responsible if I as a citizen called and said, There's a guy selling cars, I don't think he's licensed properly, or if he is licensed, he's not requiring the appropriate information or the appropriate insurance. Who is it that --
You would have to call the Philadelphia police. But if you want to remedy the situation, which I hope someday will be remedied, you have to take the police away from the situation. They're too valuable doing other things and have another --
I don't think the police should have to be burdened with that.
Go after the unauthorized dealers with a tow truck and tow their cars away immediately. Those cars will not go on the road, and you don't have to have the Live Stop as far as 85 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 they are concerned, and you'll eliminate probably 40, 50 percent of your problems.
One of the problems is that the police have come to the realization that the Live Stop is the way to eliminate all of these little things that we're talking about, because they do issue tickets. We do get L&I involved. And it still continues. The only thing way that we can do this is to have a Live Stop, have it planned, have the Parking Authority tow trucks handy. And when the car leaves the dealer, stop him right away. You're in a position of finding out that he's not registered and you can immediately tow the car away. All that you have to do that is do that a few times and everybody's out of business, but we have to have the cooperation of the Parking Authority in order to do this.
Thank you. Councilwoman Miller, do you have a question for these witnesses?
Yes. Thank you. Would you recommend that for the 86 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 unregistered, unlicensed dealers, car dealerships, that we would confiscate their cars? I'm sitting here trying to think of --
-- what would prevent. (Unintelligible, parties talking over each other.)
I would if they're in business illegitimately, they're doing everything that's against the law, that question shouldn't even be asked of me. They should be put out of business. Why is it that the honest businessman -- now, for example, in North Philadelphia, there are probably 300 unauthorized dealers and probably 30 legitimate dealers. The 200 sell 10 times as many cars as we do. Why? You don't need as much money to buy a car from them. We have laws, they're wonderful. If we don't enforce the laws, why have cars? And that's the answer. If they're doing something wrong, I get ticketed and I pay the ticket. They don't get 87 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 ticketed, and they sell the cars.
Any other questions for these witnesses? (No further questions.)
Seeing none, thank you. And that will take us out of the public hearing and into the public meeting. - - - 88 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - PUBLIC MEETING
I'd like to vote that we could vote out with a positive recommendation the findings of this hearing on this resolution.
Okay, all those in favor? All those against? The ayes have it. Thank you. (Adjourned 11:50 a.m.) 89 C E R T I F I C A T E I HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing proceedings of the Council of the City of Philadelphia of Tuesday, March 27, 2001, were reported fully and accurately by me, and that this is a correct transcript of same. RE: COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY RES. NO. 000664 __________________________________, JOSEPHINE CARDILLO, Registered Professional Reporter