COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC HEARING AND PUBLIC MEETING BEFORE COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Tuesday, 3/27/01 10:35 a.m. - - - RESOLUTION 000664 - Authorizing the City Council Committee on Public Safety to hold hearings on enforcement related to Section 12-1130 of the Philadelphia Code and the possibility of a citywide Live Stop Program PRESENT: COUNCILMAN RICHARD T. MARIANO COUNCILMAN DARRELL L. CLARKE COUNCILMAN JAMES L. KENNEY COUNCILWOMAN DONNA REED MILLER COUNCIL PRESIDENT ANNA C. VERNA - - - VINCENT VARALLO ASSOCIATES, INC. Registered Professional Reporters Eleven Penn Center, Suite 600 Philadelphia, PA 19103 (215) 561-2220 2 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY I N D E X The Honorable Fortunato Perri. . . . . . . . . Administrative Judge, Philadelphia Traffic Court Maria Figueroa, Supervisor . . . . . . . . . . Boot and Tow Department Robert DeEmilio, Administrative Officer. . . . Philadelphia Traffic Court Chief Inspector Richard Bullick. . . . . . . . 44 Phila. Police Depart. Automotive Services Bureau Fran Healy . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 54 Special Advisor to Police Commissioner Jerry Lamparter, Traffic Safety Activist . . . 57 Joan Pfaehler. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 66 Daughter of victim of uninsured driver Dominic J. Carbine, ASEABA . . . . . . . . . . 68 Jordan Lepow, Coordinator. . . . . . . . . . . 73 Fifth Street Auto Parts and Allegheny Auto Parts 3 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 P R O C E E D I N G S
We're going to bring to order the public hearing for Public Safety. Ray, you can read the bill.
Authorizing the City Council Committee on Public Safety to hold hearings on enforcement related to Section 12-1130 of the Philadelphia Code and the possibility of a citywide Live Stop Program.
The first one testifying will be the Honorable Fortunato Perri, President Judge of Traffic Court. Mr. Perri, please step up to the table and state your name and your position for the record. (Witness comes forward.) JUDGE PERRI: I brought some staff with me, Councilman. Do you mind, Councilman?
Sure. JUDGE PERRI: In case you have some questions, they'll be able to answer it. Hi. My name is Fortunato Perri. I'm the Administrative Judge of the Philadelphia Traffic Court. 4 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664
Do you have written testimony, Judge? Do you have anything written out for us? JUDGE PERRI: No. 6
Okay. JUDGE PERRI: I'm just going to go off-the-cuff. I didn't have anything prepared.
You're just going to wing it, right? JUDGE PERRI: Yes, I'm going to wing it. If I say something wrong, cut the mike off.
And we'll give you a five-second delay in case you curse, Judge. JUDGE PERRI: Good. Make it a seven-second because. . .
Go ahead. JUDGE PERRI: All right. What I would like to propose to City Council and to the Philadelphia Police Department today is that we have a Live Stop Program that I believe exists in four districts in the City of Philadelphia, and it's handled by the Philadelphia Parking Authority. I would like to increase the districts that we do Live Stop in, and the districts I would 5 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 like to go into are the 2nd, 15th, the 7th, and the 8th, and I'd like to do that with private towers. Leave the existing program stay the way it is with the Parking Authority, but let's expand it to those Northeast districts. I believe my plan would not cost the City of Philadelphia ten cents; we can do it at no 9 cost at all to the City of Philadelphia. I have a program in effect. I have a tower that would control the situation, and all I need is the cooperation of the Philadelphia Police Department and if I can get that cooperation. Now, we have statistics from when this program started of how many cars were towed and how many cars wee sold, the revenue that's gone into the City Treasurer from this program. And if you would like, I'd like to have Bob DeEmilio give you those figures, if you'd like.
Yes. JUDGE PERRI: And by the way, if you have any questions of me --
Your Honor? JUDGE PERRI: Yes. 6 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664
Your Honor, do you mind elaborating on the existing program that you're referring to. JUDGE PERRI: Well, the existing program -- if a vehicle is stopped in one of four districts in the City of Philadelphia, the Police Department notify the Parking Authority. They send a truck out to tow that vehicle and impound it. The driver is given a notice to come to Traffic Court. The car's not released unless the owner and the drive come to Traffic Court, post whatever collateral is required on our traffic tickets, and some of 'em have thousands of dollars in traffic tickets. Some of 'em, when they walk in, could owe 6, $7,000 in traffic tickets. Some of the judges in Traffic Court will take them into custody, commit them into prison until they post the collateral. Before the vehicle is released, they must show registration and current insurance and a driver's license. If they can't do that and the car is not released by the Philadelphia Traffic Court, the vehicle is then sold at auction within 7 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 30 or 32 days. And we have statistics on that from the Parking Authority.
Okay, thank you. And where does this program currently exist? JUDGE PERRI: I think it's -- I think the police could answer. The 25th District? The 1st District? (Judge Perri confers with staff member.)
She's going to have to step up to the microphone. JUDGE PERRI: She said the 3rd District, 25th District. (Witness comes forward.)
Right now, we have the 3rd District, 6th District, 25th District, and sometimes the 9th District. JUDGE PERRI: That's four.
Four right now. JUDGE PERRI: They just include -- they 8 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 just put the 25th in there recently.
So it's the 1st, 3rd and 4th are the original test pilot?
No. My understanding is the original was 3, 4 and 6, and they added 25. JUDGE PERRI: That's it.
They have 3, 4, and 6. I know that for sure 'cause that's the district I live in and that's where cars get towed.
That's where cars get impounded; it's a lovely sight. JUDGE PERRI: Yes, yes.
Thank you, Councilman. JUDGE PERRI: Do you have any questions, Councilman?
Councilman Clarke, 9 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 you got questions for Judge Perri?
Your Honor, I had asked some questions when we had met earlier to discuss some of these issues associated with this particular program. And in particularly, I was interested in some of the demographics associated with the drivers of the vehicles that were confiscated -- either zip codes or some sense of where these individuals live: Were they native to the areas where the cars were confiscated, or were they from other areas?
Ma'am, you're going to have to identify yourself for the record.
Oh, I'm sorry. My name is Maria Figueroa. I'm the supervisor of the Boot and Tow Department.
So the area where they 10 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 come from, they come from the 22nd zip code, the 40th, 20, the 33rd. They come from all over.
Do you have the specifics on where? I mean, when you say "all over," is there a number associated with --
When they come, like, from the 6th District, when the car gets impounded from the 6th District, the zip codes area, we have that individual from, like, the 34th zip code.
Excuse me, ma'am. Do you have that broken down so we can see it?
Like, when you make a stop in a certain district, what's the zip codes that's getting most of the stops? JUDGE PERRI: Give your name.
Good morning, Councilpersons. My name is Robert DeEmilio. I'm an administrative officer at the Philadelphia Traffic Court. We do have a breakdown, Councilman, to your question. We have a breakdown of how many Live Stops occurred where the violator resided, 11 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 and we have that for you here. We also have a breakdown of the Philadelphia zip codes, the 191 area and how many Live Stops of where the residents live.
It appears to be a long list. Do you have the -- give me the top three, the top three zip codes.
The top three zip codes would be 19140 where 566 Live Stops occurred; 19143, where 532 Live Stops occurred; and 19120, where 465 Live Stops occurred.
Okay. Were the vehicles -- the people who were stopped, those 500-and-some in those various zip codes, did they reside in those zip codes?
Okay. And is it 12 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 similarly equally distributed among the rest of the zip codes, or does it go down dramatically as you move down the list? If we had the list, it would be a lot easier for me.
Okay. And another question. With respects to the type of infractions that cause the confiscation of the vehicle, because that's important, is it insurance versus non-registration or a non-licensed driver? Do you have that kind of breakdown?
Councilman, the four violations that would have reason to have your car 13 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 impounded would be 1301-A of the vehicle code, which is operating an unregistered vehicle; 1371-A, which is operating a vehicle while registration is suspended; 1501-A, operating a vehicle unlicensed; and 1543-A, operating a vehicle with a suspended driver's license.
Okay. What's the breakdown? Do you have the breakdown? JUDGE PERRI: With regard to what?
I mean, traditionally, if you stop a person, would that person be more prone not to have a driver's license, or would they be more prone not to have insurance, or do we find that they don't have any of that stuff? JUDGE PERRI: Well, we -- I have a breakdown here, Councilman.
Judge, could I just interrupt? I'm sorry, just one second. JUDGE PERRI: Sure.
'Cause I think there may be some misunderstanding. Cars are not confiscated for lack of auto insurance. JUDGE PERRI: That's correct. 14 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664
Actually, the bill 3 was amended -- the bill was amended in Harrisburg to take the auto insurance requirement off of the State statute, enabling this program. So only those four areas -- unregistered, suspended registration, unlicensed or suspended license -- are you permitted to take the car? If the person cannot produce an auto insurance proof, that is not grounds for removing the vehicle. JUDGE PERRI: Correct.
What happens is that when a person has their license suspended or drives without a license, in more cases than not, they're not going to have insurance anyway 'cause they don't have a license to get the insurance. So the point is that no one's car is being removed for lack of auto insurance. JUDGE PERRI: Correct.
It's for not -- it's not abiding by the State law requiring certain financial requirements. JUDGE PERRI: Correct.
Not auto insurance, specifically not. 15 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664
Okay. So I'm asking -- JUDGE PERRI: And, Councilperson, I have a breakdown in the four districts that I'd like to move Live Stop into. In the year 2000, 3,804 --
Excuse me, Judge, I asked a question specifically related to the infractions -- JUDGE PERRI: Okay.
-- and the people whose vehicles were confiscated and the basis for their confiscation.
Who's getting the most stops here, unlicensed drivers or not registered? I think that was the Councilman's question. JUDGE PERRI: I don't think we have a breakdown for that.
All right, if your car gets confiscated for one of those four infractions but you don't have insurance -- and we understand what Councilman Kenney just said -- you 16 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 won't have insurance anyhow because your car's not registered and you don't have a license. So once you have their car -- I couldn't get my car anyhow because I didn't have insurance, right? JUDGE PERRI: Correct.
And you're not going to take it away from me 'cause I don't have insurance on a Live Stop, but you'll never give it back to me. JUDGE PERRI: We verify all insurance before we release a vehicle.
And you couldn't have insurance anyhow if you had a bad driver's license or your car wasn't registered. JUDGE PERRI: Correct.
If the vehicle 17 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 that's being driven does not have insurance and is a licensed driver driving that vehicle, 'cause there are cars out there that are not insured; I mean, that's just the reality, people find a way. Is that car then confiscated?
So if the person has valid license and that car is not insured --
And registration, then that vehicle is not confiscated. JUDGE PERRI: No. 15
All right. When was this amended in this state? JUDGE PERRI: I have no idea.
In '97, right? JUDGE PERRI: I have no idea. And the argument was, I think, at the time that the police had no way to verify insurance at 2 o'clock in the morning.
You could have 18 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 been, for example, have changed insurance companies and your car, it is now defunct in the old company and you're still waiting for the paperwork on the new company, it's not in the police computer and you don't have a card, there's no way to determine that you are in fact insured. So in an effort to keep that problem from having people -- that situation of having people's cars confiscated, they eliminated that requirement from the State act.
Okay. With respects to the actual stop, it is at the discretion of the police officer, or does that person have to be stopped for some issues? JUDGE PERRI: It's a probable cause.
It's a probable-cause issue? JUDGE PERRI: It could be expired inspection sticker, expired registration. It has to be some sort of probable cause, like going through a red light, a stop sign. And then all of that comes into play.
Some vehicle violation, a light out or something like that? 19 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 JUDGE PERRI: Yes, yes. Some probable cause to stop the violator.
Okay. So that person would have had to have been issued a ticket for the reason that they were stopped. JUDGE PERRI: Yes, absolutely.
In addition to the ultimate -- JUDGE PERRI: Absolutely.
-- confiscation of the vehicle -- JUDGE PERRI: Absolutely.
-- by virtue of them not having a license or registration. JUDGE PERRI: Right. And then they would have to come to Traffic Court and make arrangements to schedule a trial on those new tickets or old tickets and post a certain amount of collateral.
Mm-hmm. JUDGE PERRI: And after that's done, they post their collateral, they schedule their trial. We then verify insurance from registration and license. And once we do that, the judge 20 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 issues a release for that vehicle, and they go to the Parking Authority and pay whatever costs there are down here, and we give 'em the car back.
Mm-hmm, okay. JUDGE PERRI: And if I just may add, Councilman, in the four districts that I'd like to put the Live Stop into, in the year 2000, 3800 tickets were issued by the Philadelphia Police Department in those four districts that would have created these vehicles to be towed. I have that breakdown in each district.
And this is for the proposed -- how you want the -- JUDGE PERRI: Four districts in the Northeast.
The 2nd, the 15th, the 7th, and what was the other one? JUDGE PERRI: The 2nd, 15th, 7th and 8th.
All right. JUDGE PERRI: Every one of these 21 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 citations, if the Live Stop Program existed in those districts, would have caused the car to be towed.
All right,. Darrell? Councilman Clarke, you all right with these questions?
Thank you. Judge, one of the reasons that I understand that the 3rd, 4th, and 6th districts were selected in the first place was its proximity to the Parking Authority impoundment lot on Water Street or Swanson Street east of I-95 in South Philadelphia, that it made it easier for both the tow trucks to get to the scene, hook the car, take it back, and the officers themselves wouldn't be out of service for any extended length of time, extended more than a normal traffic stop. And the numbers, as I've seen them -- we'll ask the Police Department they testify -- that the numbers for the police officer on the scene from the time the car is stopped to the time the car is hooked and 22 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 towed is not extensively longer than normal traffic stops that take place normally. Where would you propose that in these expanded areas, and mostly in Northeast Philadelphia, would the cars be taken to? Would you think that they should be taken to the police impoundment lot -- I mean, the Parking Authority impoundment lot in South Philadelphia, or is there another location that you -- JUDGE PERRI: No. I am proposing to use a private tower, private storage area.
Okay. JUDGE PERRI: The private tower, he would get the cost that the Parking Authority gets now. That's my proposal. So I don't think there's any cost to the City of Philadelphia to move this program to four districts. Now, let me say this to you, Councilperson, we work with a limited staff in Boot and Tow. I mean, we have four employees right now doing boot and tow; they work very hard. I'm willing to expand this program and let my people work even harder to make the streets of Philadelphia safer. 23 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664
Again, understand, I support this program, and I think it should be done citywide right now. As you know, it is not a right to drive. JUDGE PERRI: Let me --
As you know, it is not a right to drive an automobile in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania; it is a privilege. And with that privilege, there are certain requirements: the financial responsibilities of having a valid license, having your car registered, having it insured. We have a vast mass transit system in this city. You can get to just about anywhere you need to get to in the City or the suburbs get by the use of mass transit. I did it until I was years of age, until my 18 father allowed me to buy a car when I could afford 19 to pay for insurance. 20 So it is -- alternate means of 21 transportation are definitely available to people in the City, and I believe that one of the major reasons why we have $1,000 on average higher insurance costs in Philadelphia than we do in the suburbs is because of the estimated 50 or 55,000 24 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 unlicensed drivers that cruise the streets in Philadelphia any day, any given day the week. The only concern that I have is that in order for this to move forward in an expeditious way, the City needs to cooperate with issues relative to the Philadelphia Police Department and also on issues relative to private towers on bonding, insurance, what the method is for the collection of the fines and towing costs that involve a private tower along with the Traffic Court, along with the Police Department. So I don't sense that the Administration is interested in pursuing this. As a matter of fact, Managing Director Martz testified at one of the budget hearings that the Administration did not believe that we should move forward with this unless Harrisburg gave us some form of auto insurance relief. Now, I guess the argument is, what comes first, the chicken or the egg?
Do we get the unlicensed drivers off the street and then go to 25 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 Harrisburg and argue for lower insurance rates, or do we wait for Harrisburg to lower insurance rates before we start towing cars? So those are just some of the issues that are out there. I fully support this program. I think it should be done in any neighborhood and every neighborhood in the City. If you are stopped with one of these four violations, you lose your car, period. And I think a number of things will happen: People will manage to find a way to live within the law. Police officers won't be wasting their time writing ticket after ticket for suspended licenses when people just basically rip them up and laugh and drive away. And I think the citizens would be safer in the City because a lot of the people that are basically scoffing at the law now are some of the people that are running red lights and stop signs and driving recklessly and perhaps have, you know, contraband and/or weapons in the cars. So -- that's not everyone, but I think the more stops we make, the more opportunity we have to interact with drivers in the City, the 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 better and safer the City will be. And I think we then have an argument to go to Harrisburg and say, Look, we've done our end, we've gotten these 50,000 drivers off the street, we've taken their cars. Now, what can you do to help us lower these insurance rates? At a thousand dollars a year more, it's something that drives -- it's one of the bricks on the load that drives people out of the City. When you sit down and try to figure out all of your additional costs for living in the City besides your wage tax and your private school tuition payments and the other things you have to make, that $1,000 insurance payment makes a big difference. So I applaud your efforts to move forward. However, I would try to figure out a way to get the Administration to cooperate, because I don't sense that they're interested in expanding this program.
Thank you, Councilman. JUDGE PERRI: Well, Councilman, if you look at the past, I think the head of the Parking 27 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 Authority, when you discussed moving this program further out to more districts, she wanted $15 million expand this program. And I think that scared you folks and the Mayor. If you look at my predecessor, she wanted 30 employees to expand this program. I'm saying to you today, it will cost not cents for me to do this program in four 10 more districts. Now, I'm not coming here and saying it's going to cost you a million dollars or $500,000 -- no money at all. I'm just going to have my staff work harder. I think people should be penalized. You folks gave Traffic Court these tools, and you won't let me use 'em.
But in fairness, Judge, one of the problems that we face both with the abandoned car vehicle removal program and with this Live Stop Program and going up to a private tow route, sadly, some of our towing companies in the City had difficulty meeting compliance with other requirements like their own insurance and licensed drivers and some of the things that these companies have engaged in. 28 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 So finding a company that was willing to stand up to the scrutiny and to stand up to the financial requirements to be involved in a program like this may not be as easy to find as we thought. I don't know what they do in suburbs, so maybe -- JUDGE PERRI: Councilman, I've already done my homework on that.
Great. JUDGE PERRI: I have someone in place: a legitimate, honest company who will provide enough insurance to cover every tow car, has the storage area, and I believe he's contracted to do other jobs with the City of Philadelphia.
Judge -- JUDGE PERRI: And I'm prepared to go forward and --
Judge, let me go on here a minute, 'cause we started on something but we got sidetracked. And the Councilman's right; the insurance lobby's never going to lower the cost of insurance unless we do what he says we need to do, and he's right, and you too. So we all agree pretty much here. 29 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 How much revenue can be gained? Let's talk about the positive cash flow. What kind of revenue do you project that will happen if this program is expanded to these other districts? JUDGE PERRI: For the City of Philadelphia?
Right. JUDGE PERRI: I'm going to say millions of dollars, Councilman. I mean, we have people out there driving who owe us 5, 10,000, $20,000 in traffic tickets. If you take their vehicle, they always show up and they want their car back.
So if we could save millions of dollars -- let's go with $2 million. How much would the City of Philadelphia get out of that $2 million? JUDGE PERRI: I would say you would probably see more than $2 million in the City Treasury. You get 48 percent of the fines and costs.
Yeah, but we don't get all of that million, right? JUDGE PERRI: You get -- no, I'm saying -- 30 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664
We get 48 percent of the -- (Unintelligible, parties talking over each other.) JUDGE PERRI: Even sharing it with Harrisburg.
Okay. JUDGE PERRI: They get 52, you get 48. That's my estimate, and I can only estimate. What has the -- I'll let Bobby explain how much money is taken in and --
Judge, before Bobby -- 'cause you might be able do this all at one thing. That's a good figure, but what does it cost to run this program as compared -- like, if we're getting 2 million and it's costing a million to run it, then we're only getting a million. JUDGE PERRI: I told you, it will cost you nothing.
It's not going to cost us anything extra? JUDGE PERRI: I didn't ask you for any money.
For anything 31 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 extra. JUDGE PERRI: No. We're going to work harder.
You're coming here and you don't want any extra money. JUDGE PERRI: No. We're going to work harder, Councilman.
You're not going to take a collection or anything? JUDGE PERRI: No. This young lady will work very hard with her three employees. In the future, I may have to add two employees to her department, but we can do it, we're prepared to do it. And you gave us the tools; let us use them. That's all I'm saying.
And if you use an independent tower or whatever you're looking at to use -- JUDGE PERRI: He's -- there's no cost to the City.
There's no expense for him, he gets his piece off the people. JUDGE PERRI: He gets paid for the 32 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 storage of the vehicle, he gets paid for towing the vehicle from the owner of the vehicle, or the car is not released. He then will -- he will do the auction on the vehicles he tows. The City of Philadelphia will get a percentage of that money from the auctions. I mean, I have it all broke down. I've been working two months on this, Councilman.
So, Judge, we've been working on this for four or five years, some of us, and it always gets to the point where it's money. And these may seem like repetitive questions, but -- JUDGE PERRI: Well, that's why I'm coming here and --
Judge, Judge, you got to let me finish. JUDGE PERRI: All right. I'm sorry.
And we're glad you're here, you got your new cowboy boots on, we're all excited. 33 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 But there is no negative flat cash flow to the City of Philadelphia. I want that repeated because I want everybody to -- JUDGE PERRI: I see no cost at all to the City of Philadelphia to expand this program. In fact, the City of Philadelphia will realize more revenue in the City Treasury.
That's beautiful, that's a good thing. Any other questions for the Judge, or any others?
Your Honor, I just did brief math, and I hope this is correct. On the first five lists on the Live Stop, I added up a little more than 2400 vehicles that were confiscated. And out of that, 1900 of those vehicles, the zip codes were in North Philadelphia. Do you have a sense of why that may be? Has any analysis been done on that? Is it that the people in North Philly -- they don't -- nobody in North Philly has a driver's license or 34 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 registration or -- JUDGE PERRI: I couldn't answer that, why they do it.
I'm just wondering, you know, 'cause it's a substantial number out of the first five, where 1900 out of 2400 come from North Philadelphia. JUDGE PERRI: But I think --
And it's based on the discretion of the police officer to stop these people, and I'm just wondering if this just a coincidence or -- JUDGE PERRI: Well, very frankly, every time I do a boot-and-tow case, there is probable cause -- you know, the tag's expired, the inspection's expired, the lights are out, they go through a red light, and they're stopped by the police. But I think if you see the program expanded to, say, the 15th Police District, which is in Northeast Philadelphia, my district, you will see the same statistics.
So you mean the people from North Philly will then be 35 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 (inaudible). Is it that the people in North Philly, they just, like, kind of drive all over and they get stopped and. . . JUDGE PERRI: Very frankly 'cause I just -- I'm sorry, I didn't hear your question.
You know, you said there will be the same statistics. So you're saying that if you expand the program, move it up to the Northeast, then these same people from North Philly will -- JUDGE PERRI: Well, no, no, no, I'm sorry. I said that wrong, I'm sorry. I thought you had said something else to me. No. 15 But another statistic we have here, in the year 2000, 44 percent of the tickets written in the 15th Police District, people had suspended licenses, and we didn't take their cars; or no 19 license, and we didn't take those cars. So those people just got tickets, they continue to get the same tickets, they continue to drive a car, they continue to go to Traffic Court, and millions and millions of dollars, and we're not doing anything about it.
All right, I 36 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 understand what the statistics are. I'm just, you know, looking at the analysis of why so many people -- JUDGE PERRI: I agree with you.
And maybe I need to figure out a way to do something. I think three of these zip codes are actually in my Councilmatic District, three of the first five. And if there's something going on there, where, for some reason, people don't have a driver's license, you know, maybe I need to look at what we need to do to resolve that other -- maybe other than or in addition to taking their vehicles. I've received some information as it relates to suspensions and whereas a person may actually get their license suspended for 18 years. And I've heard that that's some of the 19 enforcement that has been given out at Traffic 20 Court. JUDGE PERRI: Suspended for 20 years?
For 20 years, yeah. And I'm like -- JUDGE PERRI: Well, if you get certain citations driving on a suspended license and 37 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 you're convicted of that, it's an automatic year's suspension. So if you get of 'em and you're 4 convicted, you may be suspended for 20 years. 5
All right. 6 JUDGE PERRI: But, I mean, there are 7 appeal routes for folks. I mean, you can take an 8 appeal on those convictions to the Court of Common 9 Pleas. A Common Pleas Court judge could then 10 amend that conviction to a lesser charge. 11 A lot of folks could be restored; they 12 don't make the effort. Normally, you would need 13 an attorney to do that, but it's being done 14 hundreds of times in the Court of Common Pleas. 15
Mm-hmm. Would it 16 be possible -- and I know obviously you can't get 17 me this information now, but would it be possible 18 for me to get information on the tickets that were 19 issued as a result of a non-insured vehicle? 20 JUDGE PERRI: You mean the probable- cause stop, why the vehicle was stopped originally?
Well, I mean, nobody knows what's in the mind of a police officer, so I can't get that. I'm just trying to 38 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 get a sense of how many of these tickets were issued that ultimately caused the confiscation of a vehicle. JUDGE PERRI: In the districts that exist now?
Well, just generally, 'cause, you know, I have some statistics on insurance, and frankly, it's rather appalling, the information that I've received as it relates to the insurance of Philadelphia versus the surrounding counties, and we're more than double the cost, but yet our claims and the losses on bodily injury claims has dropped substantially, almost percent, auto thefts have dropped 30 16 percent. Yet that's not reflected in the 17 automobile insurance rates, and I'm trying to get 18 a sense as to, you know, how many people ended up 19 getting tickets because they were stopped for 20 whatever reason and they didn't have insurance and 21 you got a ticket for not having insurance. 22 JUDGE PERRI: We don't have insurance 23 statistics. 24
Do you have any 25 idea where I may be able to get that from? 39 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 (Judge Perri confers with colleague off the record.)
Mr. Chairman, could I just ask a question while they're looking for that for the Councilman?
Is there anyone here from the Administration that's been studying apparently the issue of auto insurance reform in the Commonwealth? I think Susan Schulman (ph.) was in charge of the Mayor's Task Force on Auto Insurance Reform. Is there anyone here that perhaps could give us some enlightenment as to auto insurance rates and trends, both in the region of Philadelphia and around the Commonwealth? (No response.)
It looks like she's not here. Maybe we can get her up here.
Can we get a request that someone -- if not her, someone from that task force be present to at least enlighten us as to what it is they're doing?
We'll get someone. 40 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 JUDGE PERRI: Councilman, I can answer your question; we do have a breakdown on insurance violations. In the year 2000, the Police Department wrote 47,907 tickets for not having insurance.
I'm sorry, I was distracted by my crack staff person. JUDGE PERRI: In the year 2000, the Police Department wrote over 47,000 citations for not having insurance.
No insurance. Okay, thank you. JUDGE PERRI: And we can give you a copy of that.
I've just been informed that Miss Schulman is running for judge, so we may not be able to track her down today. All right, I'm fine. Thank you, 41 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 Mr. Chairman.
Any other questions for this witness? Councilman Kenney.
I just want the record to reflect that -- and I don't want to make it look as if anybody's picking on North Philly, because I just added up the South Philly numbers. For 48, 47, 46, and 45, it's about 929, so it's not 1400, but it's not that far off. And I think that of the 7,523 confiscation, 1400 in North Philadelphia and 900 in South Philadelphia, it seems that throughout the course of the City, they seem to be pretty well spread around. I mean, there's representation from every area of the City, even though the top five go from 566 to 422, the next 15 or 20 are still above 120. So, I mean, although it does drop from 4-0 down to 120, from 19140 zip code to 19147, there's still substantial numbers of automobiles being towed from residents -- or away from residents that are living in other areas of Philadelphia. And the area where myself and Council President Verna lives and Councilman 42 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 DiCicco lives is almost cracking 1,000. So, I mean, I think it's -- even though there may be a higher number north, there's still substantially higher numbers in the rest of the City.
Judge, also on that question, are we stopping anybody that doesn't live in the City of Philadelphia for these things? JUDGE PERRI: Sure, sure.
Do you happen to have any stats on that, nonresidents? (Unintelligible, parties talking over each other.) JUDGE PERRI: By the way, Councilman, we get a lot of vehicles from South Street that are towed down there.
There's nobody from Washington Township, is there? JUDGE PERRI: I'm not sure.
I just want to make sure the record's clear that no one from 43 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 Washington Township was towed off of South Street. JUDGE PERRI: Yeah, we get 'em from all over, not just the City of Philadelphia.
Now, these are statistics from the non-Philadelphia residents, correct?
Councilman, these include both. These are all of the zip codes that were involved in a Live Stop. We just extract the Philadelphia number.
Okay. What's Washington Township's zip code, Councilman Kenney? Any other questions for these witnesses? Councilman? Any more questions for these witnesses? (No further questions.)
The next panel is -- JUDGE PERRI: Thank you very much for hearing us out.
Chief Inspector Bullick, from the Philadelphia Police Department. Florida. (Witness come forward.)
State your name for the record. INSPECTOR BULLICK: Good morning, Madam President and City Council members.
Good morning. INSPECTOR BULLICK: My name's Chief Inspector Richard Bullick, B-U-L-L-I-C-K. I'm in charge of the Automotive Services Bureau for the Police Department. I want to thank you for inviting me here and voicing some of the concerns that the City Police Department may have. I've brought a couple of people with me. My sergeant, Sergeant Bea (ph.), and Special Advisor to the Police Commissioner, Fran Healy (ph.). I'm not sure, did they give this out?
We have your revised testimony. INSPECTOR BULLICK: Okay. I got to be careful what I say 'cause it sounds like 45 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 Councilman Kenney knows more about this than I do. (Laughter.) INSPECTOR BULLICK: All right. As you're aware, the Live Stop Program is cooperation between several local agencies -- and that's the Traffic Court, the Philadelphia Police Department, and the Parking Authority. It is my opinion that the actual success of this current program has been directly attributed to the limited size of the scope. The program was initiated several years ago and currently operates in the 3rd, 4th, and the 6th police districts. It also right now is into the 25th district, a portion of the Operation Sunrise, we're in there now. We also do the expressways and the extensions -- that's 95, Woodhaven Road, the Schuylkill. We also do portions of Delaware Avenue, where the clubs are. The three districts that -- in fact, most of Center City portions of the upper South Philadelphia. In the year 2000, we did 3500 cars. Notably, one of the most important aspects of the current program is that individuals are stopped for the program that not -- and not 46 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 detained for a long period of time. When the car is going to be seized, it takes approximately 30 minutes for the tow truck to get there and to have this stop handled, the initial stop, when the car is ultimately towed. Not that -- not only does this quick response free the police officers; it doesn't detain the person for a long period of time and keep 'em an unreasonably long period of time. It is my understanding that the Parking Authority does not currently have the equipment resources or efficiency to implement this citywide program while continuing to meet the normal operations of its duties. Expanding the program citywide perform without the comprehensive evaluation and the available resources and potential requirements for success would currently overwhelm the capacity of the Parking Authority and preclude the ability and efficiencies (indiscernible) to seize these cars in a timely manner. In conclusion, please let me state that I support the expansion of Live Stop in theory. However, issues such as cost, capacity, resources, and equipment must first be addressed. 47 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 On behalf of the Police Commissioner Timoney, I would like to thank the Councilmembers. If you have any questions--
Thank you, Inspector. I have a couple questions. INSPECTOR BULLICK: Feel free.
Did you ever go to law school? INSPECTOR BULLICK: No, no. 11
You're starting to sound like a lawyer, Chief Inspector. INSPECTOR BULLICK: It's "Chief Inspector," that's -- (Unintelligible, parties talking over each other.)
That's all right, I appreciate that. You heard Judge Perri sit there and say this would be at no extra cost to the City, this program, right? INSPECTOR BULLICK: Right.
Have you had a chance to talk to him about how he's going to work that just by expanding it to three more police 48 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 districts and use a private tower? INSPECTOR BULLICK: We haven't talked personally about it.
Okay. Does anyone on -- does Mr. Healy or Sergeant Bea? UNIDENTIFIED WITNESS: We haven't spoken to the Judge.
Do you know what tower he's talking about? As I understand it, it's the same one that you guys already -- INSPECTOR BULLICK: I'm pretty sure it's the same one --
You currently use -- INSPECTOR BULLICK: I'm in charge of the Abandoned Auto Unit, as I'm sure you know.
Yeah. INSPECTOR BULLICK: And I believe there's one or two of those gentlemen. And if it's who I have in mind, he's outstanding.
I mean, I don't want to go through procedures and all, but you haven't had any problem with them. INSPECTOR BULLICK: No. 49 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664
And he'd be probably fully capable of doing this stuff, getting out there and doing this in 30 minutes and all of that. INSPECTOR BULLICK: Right.
Chief Inspector, I know that many of the cars that are towed as a part of the abandoned vehicle removal process are cars that are perhaps not worth anything. They may be, originally, in the beginning of the program, shells of cars, burned-out cars that we kind of -- just kind of sold for scrap, I guess. This phase of the program, how many of these cars that are taken off the street today on the abandoned vehicle side are workable -- have cars with some value? Can you give me just an anecdotal -- INSPECTOR BULLICK: The percentage, I would say probably 50 percent.
50 percent. And the tower that you guys use now, the Police Department uses now, stores those cars? 50 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 INSPECTOR BULLICK: There's different towers.
And they store the 5 cars on their own facilities -- 6 INSPECTOR BULLICK: (Inaudible.) 7
-- for potential 8 redemption by the owner? 9 INSPECTOR BULLICK: That's correct. 10
And what are the 11 requirements for redemption? When an individual's 12 car is towed and they go to "ABC Towing Company," 13 for argument's sake, what do they have to do to 14 get their cars back? 15 INSPECTOR BULLICK: First they come to 16 our unit to get a release. They must have 17 registration, they must have the car insured and a 18 driver's license. 19
So it's similar to what is being required now in order -- INSPECTOR BULLICK: But you have to be legal just to --
So in order -- so the same requirements, criteria that's being required now to get your car from the impoundment 51 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 lot in the Parking Authority are the same things that you need to provide to redeem your car from a private tower in the abandoned auto detail. INSPECTOR BULLICK: That's correct.
Okay. Has there been any complaints or many complaints that you're aware of with the use of private towers? When people say, Well, you know, you took my car but it didn't have this dent in it but now it does, and what's the mechanism to resolve those issues? 'Cause I understand that one of the concerns about expanding Live Stop is that if we go to a private tow scheme, that people have their cars towed and say, Well, you know what, that bumper wasn't hanging off that car when you towed it and now I want you to pay for it 'cause you damaged it. What kind of experience do we have in dealing with private companies as it relates to those kind of complaints? INSPECTOR BULLICK: On the abandoned auto side, we had since the beginning, naturally, all of the salvers are insured, I believe, for a million dollars. And my thing that I've always 52 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 said to the salvers and to the public is, there will be mistakes made. If they have problems, we're going to make you whole. And so far, the salvers have made 'em whole if there was a problem with that.
So, I mean, without making any specific comment, half of the department, as it relates to the expansion of Live Stop, do you believe that the mechanisms currently in place relative to the abandoned vehicle program could possibly be utilized in any type of expansion of Live Stop? Do you think that it's asking these private companies to go beyond what they're capable of doing? INSPECTOR BULLICK: I don't believe it's beyond what they're capable of, but I think there may be other issues. Fran?
I mean, just from a practical approach, not from a policy approach, not from a government policy approach, 'cause I know you're not speaking for government policy. Just from a day-to-day, nuts-and-bolts, get-it-done approach, do you think that the 53 3/27/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 664 capacity's there for these individuals, or some or all of these individuals to be involved in this program? INSPECTOR BULLICK: I don't know if it goes citywide but maybe to expand it perhaps.
Inspector, on Councilman Kenney's question, what about these three districts that Judge Perri was talking about? Is that in the scope of this happening? INSPECTOR BULLICK: One thing I asked the judge on the way out was, when he has the zip codes, was that where they got stopped, or is that where the individual lived?