COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC HEARING COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - - - Room 696, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Tuesday, April 8, 2003 2:05 p.m. - - - BILL NOS. 030002, 030003, 030005, 030006, 030009, 030012, 030013; RESOLUTION NO. 030030. BILL NOS. 030004, 030008, and 030010. - - - PRESENT: COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA COUNCILWOMAN JANNIE BLACKWELL COUNCILMAN DAVID COHEN COUNCILMAN MICHAEL NUTTER COUNCILMAN ANGEL ORTIZ COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO COUNCILWOMAN MARIAN TASCO - - - V A R A L L O, INCORPORATED LITIGATION SUPPORT SERVICES 1835 Market Street, Suite 600 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 215.561.2220 215.567.2670 I N D E X WITNESS JOAN DECKER, Records Commissioner .......... ROBERT DUBOW, Budget Director .............. MR. GODBOLT ................................ 9 JOHN DOMZALSKI, Health Commissioner ........ 18 JOE CRONAUER ............................... 53 MARK BENCIVENGO ............................ 61 GLEN REED .................................. 70 MR. HESS, OESS ............................. 78 VICTOR MCDAVIS ............................. 90 JOYCE WILKERSON, Chief of Staff ............ 100 RICHARD SHAEFFER, 0ESS ..................... 104 JAMES ROUNDTREE, MBEC ...................... 123 TOM NESTELL, Deputy Police Commissioner .... 129 MICHAEL RESNICK, Prisons ................... 135 ALAN APPEL, Prisons ........................ 146 CLARENA TOLSON, Streets Department ......... 148 3 04/08/03 - WHOLE
Good afternoon, everyone. This is the continued public hearing of the Committee of the Whole regarding Bill 5 Nos. 030002, 030003, 030005, 030006, 030009, 030012, 030013, Resolution 030030, and Bill Nos. 030004, 030008, and 030010. I believe the first department to testify --
Good afternoon. Joan Decker, Records Commissioner. And with me today is Jeanne Reedy, Administrative Services Director.
Councilman Cohen, do you have any questions of the Records Commissioner?
I would like to know whether there have been meetings between representatives of the City, including yourself and Mr. Godbolt, and what the results are so that we can know where the public stands on this. Let me ask, were meetings that took place?
Mr. Godbolt yesterday 4 04/08/03 - WHOLE requested a meeting and we did respond to him --
That wasn't my question. I didn't think Mr. Godbolt had to request a meeting. A meeting was called for as a result of the testimony last week. I'm the one that requested that the meeting take place. And I expected you as the Commissioner to immediately follow through and call Mr. Godbolt for a meeting to carry through the request of this Committee.
You mean nothing happened until Mr. Godbolt called you?
I did not understand that you requested that we have a meeting with Mr. Godbolt.
I was the one that insisted that the City stop preventing the people from Philadelphia from getting information that they can get free from Mr. Godbolt. It would cost the City much in the way of dollars to provide that information. I could not understand why the City 5 04/08/03 - WHOLE was so insistent in denying the people of Philadelphia ready access to that information. I thought it was tremendous of Mr. Godbolt as a private citizen to offer to render this service to Philadelphians. And my memory is clear that I'm the one that suggested that there be a meeting. That's the reason that hearing was recessed until today, to give you an opportunity to work out the meeting. Is Mr. Dubow in the room? I would like to ask him to step forward too.
Because I would like to bring this to an end and know whether we have a Records Department that works in the interests of the citizens of Philadelphia or works in some other interest. And right now I'm very confused.
Both. Could we have Mr. Godbolt also? Because at the end of the last Session we had everybody at the table. 6 04/08/03 - WHOLE
Mr. Godbolt, please approach. Just pull that one chair over, if you will.
The purpose of my questioning is to find a way to make information available to the people of Philadelphia. I think it's the duty of the Department of Records to make the material available. If this doesn't work out, then at least I want to know from the Budget Director how much money it will cost, and to provide for that amount of money to be put in the Records Department, maybe taking it from money already in the budget for the Records Department, make available to the people of Philadelphia the services that Mr. Godbolt is offering for free to the citizens of Philadelphia. It seems to me that your waiting for Mr. Godbolt to call made the meeting the other day worthless. The meeting was not to urge Mr. Godbolt to call you. He complained a number of times that he had been trying to meet with you and that there was no response. The purpose was to direct you, if you wanted to have a budget for the Records Department, 7 04/08/03 - WHOLE to proceed to work out with Mr. Godbolt a way to make this information available to the people of Philadelphia at the minimum cost. It seems that Mr. Godbolt can make that material available to the public at a much less cost than the City of Philadelphia can and, therefore, I want us to take advantage of his offer. I'm astounded that you waited for Mr. Godbolt to call. You should have been in touch with him immediately to sit down and decide how can we work this thing out. Now, Mr. Dubow, did you have any question about what I was trying to do the other day?
What I'd like to do is walk you through what we want to do, because we agree with you --
Well, tell me what you want to do to make available to the people of Philadelphia at the minimum cost the same information that the City of Philadelphia makes available to bankers, to real estate, to preferred law firms. I don't know how these law firms are chosen for this information. And to make it 8 04/08/03 - WHOLE available in the same fashion. If Mr. Godbolt needs it and can use it in any way in which any of these three companies or -- not the three companies -- but the various companies can, that should be available with thanks from the City to him for performing a public service, instead of putting obstacles in his way.
Thanks, Councilman. Mr. Dubow, do you mind walking us through exactly what you're attempting to do, please.
Yes. There are two things that we wanted to do. One is that, as you know, there were 50 companies that had access to this information. We're going to give Mr. Godbolt that access too so that he can use that information and, as he said, that he can make that available to -- he already has that information, I understand, from the Records Commissioner. So he has that information. And so if he can, as he says, make that available to the public, that's one venue for the public to have the information. We also want the public to be able to 9 04/08/03 - WHOLE have the information through the City, so we're going to make changes to our system to ensure that that information is available both from the City and we've made it available to Mr. Godbolt.
So he's been informed that he's going to be given the same privileges that the banks and the --
He requested at our meeting last week, he requested access to philadocs and we provided access to the philadocs system to him.
Good afternoon, Councilmembers. I would say in a narrow sense it is true. But the bigger issue here, it seems to me, is making these records available to the public as soon as possible. What has been provided by the Records Department to me is retail data. What I need in order to make it available to all Philadelphians is the data on a wholesale basis. It is kind of like 10 04/08/03 - WHOLE asking Acme to shop for its apples at 7-Eleven. It just doesn't make sense.
You'll have to explain that, Mr. Godbolt. What do you mean by retail and what do you mean by wholesale in this context?
Okay. As I understand it, the Records Department offers the recorders extract in three different forms. It offers it as a Web page, which goes by the name of philadocs. It offers it on microfilm. The Commissioner has already talked about the cost of the reels. And then the third way, the way that I need the data, if I'm going to make it available to the public, is on CD, a big lump of data on the CD. Not having to look at individual Web pages for each and every property.
And is that the form in which the information is furnished to the other companies you've outlined? It seems to me three different methods. Are these three methods offered to the companies that do business with the City?
Yes. For the extracts and the microfilm, everyone pays for microfilm and 11 04/08/03 - WHOLE extracts. Everyone pays for that. It's a fee established by the City.
Well, we weren't talking about pay yet. I was talking about how the information -- is there a CD version?
Mr. Godbolt, at our meeting last week, requested access to philadocs and we've provided him with that information.
I want to answer your question, Councilman, if I can remember what it was. Could you repeat it, please?
Yes. The question I have is, is the CD information that you're requesting, is that made available by the City of Philadelphia to the other companies? Or are you requesting a different version? 12 04/08/03 - WHOLE
Well, I believe it is made available to other companies. I've asked the Commissioner about several companies that make data available, like Lexus Nexus and First American Realty, companies that would be likely to buy the data. And in each case she's denied to me in writing that these companies are purchasing the data. So I'm not sure. My sense is that in order for Lexus Nexus to offer deed information for Philadelphia, somebody has to be getting the data. They might not be getting it directly, but somebody is getting the data and then furnishing it to Lexus Nexus, which then makes it available to the public. Again, I think our primary goal here should be to make this information available to the public as soon as possible. I've looked at what the Records Department has done, their philadocs service, and it is excellent. I think it is a crime. I think it is a crying shame that this has not been made available to the public before now. It is really good. But given the limitations, the reasons why the City cannot move on this right now -- the Commissioner cited limited network capacity and licensing issues, the fact that her oracle 13 04/08/03 - WHOLE license only allowed 50 people at one time to use this service. I would humbly suggest that the way to go is by providing me with the data in the form that I need it so that I can make it available to the public, while the City works out the licensing issues and the network capacity and so on and so forth. I told this Council the last time and I will say it again, if you give me the data today or sell it to me at a reasonable price -- and by the way, I do not consider $400 to be a reasonable price, at least not without some explanation -- I will put it up tomorrow. If you give me the data today, I will have it up and available to the citizens of Philadelphia tomorrow.
Councilman, with all due respect, first of all, the information is available for a fee to everyone across the board and many other companies, individuals who request the data, do purchase the fee. It's a standing practice. It's a past practice. It's been in existence for a number of years that preceded my tenure as 14 04/08/03 - WHOLE Commissioner. It's a very acceptable practice.
The Chair recognizes Councilman Rizzo. Excuse me, Commissioner.
Commissioner, I don't want to be tough on you. You're really a nice person, a good Commissioner. But you know, first of all, I have to support my colleague here. I'm a little bit confused. You're referring to meetings you had with Mr. Godbolt. You're referring to meetings that haven't been set up yet. When I left this room last week, I believe we requested certain information about the 50 companies, how frequently they use the service; in other words, a snap shot of exactly what exists today. Mr. Godbolt is not a major law firm that is utilizing that information for a profit. Why don't we just, again, stop all of this? Your tone has changed from last week, so I don't know who spoke with you, but we really need to get on with this. This is information that we need, that I need. There's times when I go to hallwatch to get 15 04/08/03 - WHOLE information that I can't get through our City system. So, can't we just stop this? There's a lot of people here that we want to get on. Can't we just agree today? If you're selling this information to other people that are making a profit, then maybe we need to have another category of the fees associated with this service. So I would appreciate and I think everybody in this room, Mr. Godbolt, the citizens of this City, because he's become known as the place to go to get information to make people's lives better. So can we just get on this and get this thing resolved today? Because, again, I'm not aware of the information that I requested at the last hearing was provided to the Chair yet. I haven't received it. I asked for information at that last hearing about how much use the system is getting, et cetera. And if you don't want to cooperate, just be up front and say you don't want to cooperate. You're being told not to cooperate. We're big boys and women here. So we can deal with that and maybe go in another direction, have to go beyond the Commissioner of the Records Department. But, please, can we get this resolved today? 16 04/08/03 - WHOLE
The fees is not my decision to make. And also these are questions that are currently in a lawsuit, which I explained last week.
But, Commissioner, if you want to read the transcript, last week there was some agreement made here.
I believe we agreed to give Mr. Godbolt access to the philadocs system, which we did. He requested access to the philadocs system. We agreed to that during last week's Council meeting and we did provide him with access to the system.
You left here last week, which I think I could describe as a suggestion -- at least I got the suggestion, the encouragement that you were going to cooperate to make all of this work. And what I'm hearing today is a different Records Commissioner than sat at that table the last time we were here. So what you're telling me is we need to fight over this. And if you want your counsel to fight to get this, we can do that. We're pretty good at that. So if we have to do what the Councilman suggested, tinker with your budget or do whatever is required, we'll do it. Thank you, Madam Chair. 17 04/08/03 - WHOLE
Madam Chair, I would like to suggest that we put all budget matters involving the Records Department on indefinite hold until this matter gets settled.
I'm just astounded by the representative of the City of Philadelphia to keep information hidden from the people of Philadelphia, instead of embracing the opportunity to get volunteer help from the citizens of the City.
We agree we should make the information available. We'll talk to Mr. Godbolt during the course of these hearings this afternoon and come back to the table before we all leave today.
That's fine. As a matter of fact, you can meet in the anteroom here and we'll continue on with our hearings. Thank you. The Health Department is next. Commissioner, it was requested that you 18 04/08/03 - WHOLE be called back. Councilman Cohen, I believe you had some questions of the Health Department.
Good afternoon, President. John Domzalski, Health Commissioner.
Thank you, Madam President. During a series of investigative hearings held by the City Council with respect to health insurance provided to the employees and elected officials to the City of Philadelphia, it was revealed that there is a situation which employees are covered during the time they're employees, retirees are covered during the time they're retirees, but that if an employee, while on active duty, were suddenly to pass away, for example, none of his family dependents who were covered by the insurance would be covered. Had the employee who was eligible for retirement, say, a long-term employee retired, his family would have been covered for five years following his death as a retirement benefit. But since the employee died on 19 04/08/03 - WHOLE active duty, there appeared to be a glitch. Since he was no longer an active employee, he wasn't covered. And since he had not become a retiree, he and his family have no rights.
Councilman, I don't think that's a question that should be directed to the Health Commissioner. I think that falls more into the category of Personnel and perhaps the Mayor's Office. I don't think that the Health Commissioner has absolutely anything to do with that. And I know what your concerns are because we've been talking about it for quite some time.
If the Health Commissioner concurs with the President, I will agree with her.
Okay. Then I have no 20 further questions of the Health Commissioner. I think he does a great job in general. I was hoping you'd be helpful to resolve this strange glitch that exists in the field of health coverage.
I think we would all agree that the Health Commissioner does a 20 04/08/03 - WHOLE fantastic job.
Thank you. Commissioner, could you give me an update on where we are, now that the Health Department is responsible for animal control? I expressed my concern about destroying so many animals. I'd like to know where we are to possibly develop a program that will make more animals available to the public rather than have to destroy them.
Absolutely, Councilman. And, in fact, you were very, very clear about your concern that we increase the adoptions, and I will tell you that we share that absolutely. Toward that end, what we've done is enhanced our ability to get animals before the public. I will tell you, Councilman, in the hearings that we had about a month ago, you pointed out -- and I don't know whether it was in the public 21 04/08/03 - WHOLE part of the testimony or afterwards -- about the utility of accessing the City's cable channel as one of the issues associated with that. What we did very shortly after that, we did put some information up there on the banner part of it about our animals for adoption. And I think you supplemented the suggestion, sir, at the time that we would want to include some pictures on that. And we took that and got some photographs of the animals that are available for adoption. The initial batch that we sent over there were not quite cable appropriate in terms of the quality of the photographs. We've remedied that, we believe. In fact, if today's proceedings aren't somehow interfering with the normal broadcast on City cable, we believe that those pictures that you suggested will be up there either this afternoon or tomorrow. It's that kind of thing that we really appreciate the suggestion on, and it really enhances our ability and redoubles our commitment to get that kind of thing accomplished. Our arrangement with Pet Smart, where we're able to get animals over to Pet Smart and show them, have them available for inspection by people 22 04/08/03 - WHOLE who participate and patronize that establishment, has resulted in an increase in our adoptions. In fact, overall since September, we've been able to post about a percent increase in the numbers of 6 animals that we've adopted over what was the case in 7 the previous arrangement with the SPCA. We expect to dramatically improve that performance, as well, sir.
Commissioner, if I can also suggest -- and I had a conversation with the Revenue Department to maybe develop a piggyback mailer in the water bill or other communications that are already being sent by the City, so we don't have to add any additional postage to this program, that we do whatever humanly possible. And I also suggested that we enhance that program by having an hour segment on the cable channel. I've talked to the captain of the police K-9 Unit and they would love to be able to participate and facilitate the showing of the dogs on the cable and cats and other animals that you have at your facility. So lessening that number and making some of these pets available for our constituents would be, I think, wonderful. So keep 23 04/08/03 - WHOLE me in mind to help with anything that we can do.
Absolutely. We certainly take you up on it. If you would want to facilitate that communication with the K-9 group or if you'd like us to follow-up, we'd be very pleased to do that.
Whoever you have that would like to expand what you've already accomplished -- because I envision that we could have on that cable channel a program that's regularly scheduled where we could get guest hosts to come in. I've already talked to a couple of the TV anchors that would love to spend an hour with the Health Department in showing the various animals and making them available for adoption. I mean, I think this is something you can make your dreams come true if you really focus on it. Because, again, we're killing too many nice animals. And I understand we have to destroy the animals that are in bad condition health-wise and come in from being struck by vehicles. The Police Department also said that they would teach people the responsibility of pet ownership. Not everybody should have a pet. Not 24 04/08/03 - WHOLE every person has the proper accommodations for a large pet. So I think it's whatever we want it to be. We can pretty much make this thing. And maybe we'll have a reputation of trying to lessen the number of those pets that we kill.
Thank you. Councilman Cohen, your light is on. Did you want to be recognized?
Well, my staff member reminded me that in addition to the inappropriate question I had directed to Commissioner, I had two more appropriate questions. One dealt with lead paint poisoning. I would like to know what would be the budgetary requirement for us to eliminate the problem of lead paint poisoning in the City of Philadelphia in the new fiscal year and Fiscal Year '04 that we're budgeting for now?
We're talking about a figure to keep up with the new cases that come in, 25 04/08/03 - WHOLE is 1 1/2 million dollars.
Why do new cases come in now? Lead paint is barred, isn't it?
It's a function of the age of the housing in cities like Philadelphia. Since 1978 it has been against the law to apply lead-based paint to the interior of any residential dwellings in the City of Philadelphia and elsewhere in the nation. So all the housing built prior to 1978 most likely contains a lead paint hazard. Now, lead paint in and of itself intact is not a hazard to children. However, as the dwellings age and as the maintenance issues continue to accumulate, that paint sometimes chips. Sometimes it becomes -- it doesn't adhere to the surface anymore. And other areas such as the double-hung windows where you put them up and down, the windows grind against the sash and create dust, and that is the culprit with children. And so as we see young children in housing that has deteriorated paint in it, that child is at risk for developing lead poisoning. When we get a child screened for lead -- we recommend that every child, particularly between 04/08/03 - WHOLE the ages of 0 and and right on up to age five be 3 screened for exposure to lead paint every year. When we get a child that we've identified through the screening process as being lead intoxicated and has a lead level, an elevated lead level, we'll go out there and inspect that property and find out what the source of that lead exposure is in the property, and then we will issue orders from the Health Department that that condition be abated. And when the property owner does that, we'll go out to re-inspect, look at it, do a test to see whether or not the condition has been abated and then clear the property if that has been accomplished.
So these are not necessarily old cases, but these may be new cases that come to the attention of the Health Department?
That's good. But tell me what happens if the Health Department seeks to enforce it against -- I had a call last week, I believe it was from a constituent, who said, "I'm an older women living on social security. I'm the only one who lives here now and I received a notice from 27 04/08/03 - WHOLE the Health Department that I've got to clear this condition. The cost will be several thousand dollars. I don't have it." How does that person bring about relief? Is is there any system by which a person can appeal?
I commend the system, but if it's done arbitrarily without connection with a child living there, it could create a great deal of hardship.
Yes. I would like to look at that, Councilman, that specific case, in terms of whether or not -- if there's no child in that property, that would be one thing. If it's a property where a child is a frequent visitor, that property may well be a source. Even though the child does not live there, it may be a source of contamination.
So, given that case, suppose in the event that it is a continuing hazard for the child and the homeowner says in this particular case, "I cannot do this. Can you help 28 04/08/03 - WHOLE me?" The City will perform the abatement. What we will do is bill the owner for this. The owner often times -- and in this case this would be -- and is most likely the case, the owner says, "I just can't pay this. I just cannot pay this." The City is not going to take action to reduce that to a judgment. We will look at the potential for liening the property. Also, what we've been experiencing as we've taken this to a new level this year, is that when a property owner in that circumstance says, "You know, I think I'd like to appeal this," often times they'll appeal it to, I think it's the Board of Revision of Taxes to which that appeal is made. Frequently what happens is -- and all of our appeals so far have been upheld -- is that there will be a schedule of payments worked out with the homeowner. So we do everything that we know how to do today to make this as least onerous as possible for the homeowner, while keeping focused on the need to abate that lead hazard in relation to its risk to children.
Well, it seems like 29 04/08/03 - WHOLE you've got a fairly reasonable approach. I'm not sure it can work in all cases, but that's why we have appeal boards to consider special circumstances if they are required. So I thank you for that. We will go over that case, too, to see if it fits one of the categories you spoke about and discuss it with the constituent and the --
-- the potential road maps that they can follow. Let me ask you another question with respect to mammograms. Are mammograms only -- I'm talking mobile, the Mom's cases, mobile groups. I think there's one group that goes around the City with mobile arrangements to take mammograms.
But I believe it only covers one or possibly two health districts out of ten in the City, or nine.
Well, actually you're right, Councilman. Health Center 9 is one of the -- we have two ways of doing mammograms. First of all, mammograms relate directly 30 04/08/03 - WHOLE to the tragedy of breast cancer, of breast cancer, not exclusively, but predominately in women. Fifteen years ago, a woman had a 1 in 11 chance of coming down with breast cancer. That is now 1 in 8. The situation is getting worse. What we need to do is get the ability for diagnostic testing out there and to make that an issue. The other tragedy of breast cancer is it is a very, very clear example of disparities, health disparities. You know, African American women come down with breast cancer at a much lower rate than white women. However, the death rate for African American women from breast cancer is almost double and triple. And that has to do with an access issue. An access issue and being able to get people out, aware, and into mammography. Two ways we do that. One is a mobile mammography unit. The other is where the mammography unit is not appropriate for one reason or another at a center, what we will do is facilitate access in that center to mammography services at one of our back-up hospitals. That's what we do at 9. So it's available.
Is the second method 31 04/08/03 - WHOLE you just described an effective method in minority communities where there may be very severe concerns about the kind of service they will get and whether they will really be welcomed?
Absolutely, Councilman. We facilitate that service. We just don't send a patient to one of our back-up hospitals. Either our social workers or nursing staff or, if need be, our medical director will be in touch with the hospital. When I say facilitate, mammography services for the general community are less available than they need to be, and often times there's a waiting list. So what we do, though, is make sure that our patients get in and get access to those centers without having to go through a waiting period in those hospitals. And we are very effective in ensuring that our patients get appropriate, consistent and respectful care at those facilities.
I'm sure you do everything possible to achieve that. But what I'm more concerned with is getting that knowledge accepted by the minority community, get them willing to go in for that kind of treatment. It seems to me that the mobile system is a very effective system, 32 04/08/03 - WHOLE more effective than any others. And if it's just a question of money that makes us choose some method other than the mobile mammogram method, I would like to ask you to consider that. And if you conclude that the mobile is most effective, I would like to know what the cost would be to cover all areas where you think the mobile mammogram examination facilities could be employed. Because it seems to me that covering one or two districts is not enough under the circumstances.
We cover almost all except the one. And that one is not so much a money problem as it is a physical plant problem. The mobile unit is mobile, but it's a substantial unit and it's getting it physically into that facility that has presented a couple of challenges that we've been working on to resolve over the past several weeks, and we think we might have a shot at this. There's some other aspects to it in terms of utilities. But in the meantime, I want to assure you that while we're doing that, no one is denied or inconvenienced in relation to that critically important service.
Could you keep me 33 04/08/03 - WHOLE informed of its progress?
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Tasco.
Councilman Ortiz was in my ear. Did you say you didn't have a location to keep the mobile? You said it was a physical plant issue?
Yes. It's getting it physically into that health center that presents a physical plant challenge that we're trying to work through.
No, not so much storage. It's a mobile unit that we transport to different health centers and we have -- the ones we transport there, we've got to get it through the door, and that's the difficulty at that particular center. 34 04/08/03 - WHOLE
Other centers have a ramp that facilitates -- these are very heavy pieces of equipment -- that facilitates the access to the center.
Actually, no. There's two pieces. There is a truck that conveys the mammography unit, the X-ray machine. We unload it from that -- and that's a heavy unit and we need to get it into the building. What I've just been assured is that since we had this discussion in my office about 3 1/2 weeks ago, that, yes, we're building that ramp to get it into that facility.
Thank you. Thank you. That's good. It's a very important piece. 35 04/08/03 - WHOLE I want to go back to -- and I support that because the Mom Mobile -- not only for the service, the mammograms, but other health issues too, are very important in the Northwest. Because, you know, we just -- everybody believes that everybody in the Northwest is just so rich and they have all this medical coverage. But we have what you have; we have the working poor. People don't have health insurance. Women don't have health insurance, so they need access to those services. We appreciate all you try to do to make that happen. I wanted to go back to lead paint. I want to go back to the case that Councilman Cohen raised, which kind of triggered my thought around our whole effort to eliminate blight. When we began putting requirements on homeowners -- and Philadelphia is a City of an aging population. A lot of our homeowners, as a matter of fact the majority of them, are older. They're on fixed incomes. Probably the only thing they have is their home. How much does an average abatement cost a homeowner to abate the lead paint?
Now, you start 36 04/08/03 - WHOLE sending those notices out to senior citizens; they don't have the ability to pay that. They're not going to get the ability to pay that. The last thing I want to see you do is lien their property, because the City can't handle it. Plus, you suck out the equity of the homeowner. You suck out the equity of the family's ability to claim that property, and we continue to add and contribute to the blight of the houses in this City. I think what we need to do is find some money to help these families, based on the income requirements, to abate the lead. Because the housing stock -- I was talking about that this morning, and we'll be talking to you about this whole issue. The housing stock, anything that's built before 1978, which are the majority of the properties of this City, fall in the older neighborhoods, and children are there. Grandchildren, great grandchildren. And you tie in the whole issue of kinship care, grandparents taking care of children, you have that problem. And we want to abate the lead. We might want to look at maybe some of the NTI money, since it is designed to prevent blight, or stem blight. Somehow we need to 37 04/08/03 - WHOLE look at a pot of grant money to help, because you're going to pay for it anyway. The end result is what I'm concerned about. What happens to that house? Does it become a vacant house? The family's got a lien on it. They'll say, "Oh, I don't want it. Just leave it sit there." It still becomes a burden to the City. It still costs the City. So what we need to think about is how we provide some dollars to help with the abatement and, of course, try and get the family to pay. I'm not saying they shouldn't try to pay. Pay whatever little bit they can. A little bit is better than nothing. But to end up liening the property is going to really add to our blight.
You're right, Councilwoman. And that's a scenario that we work around very, very carefully to try to make sure that we do only what actually has to be done to make it lead safe in that house. And to try to work through with what we know at this point, the resources that we have around special circumstances, such as Councilman Cohen described. We want to take that kind of careful and hopefully enlightened approach as we deal with these very serious neighborhood 38 04/08/03 - WHOLE issues.
When you abate the property, how do you pay for it? What fund does it come from?
Right now the work I'm doing this year comes from the City's General Fund.
Have you looked at Community Development Block Grant dollars?
We're having that discussion. Where we are -- our funding for the coming year. You know, we've really turned lead paint on its head in Philadelphia in the last year. The word has gotten out on that. And people who weren't talking to us about grants and money in the past now are. And I will tell you that as of yesterday, we secured a full $550,000 in new funding for this, that when I was here March 4th, I didn't have -- I was confident I was going to get money, but I didn't have it then. I now have $550,000. I've got a handle on two more areas here where I believe we are going to secure all of the funding that we're going to need for this coming year. No 24 doubt about it. In addition to that, what's also 39 04/08/03 - WHOLE happened in this community -- and I think we really have to focus on what has come out of this Council in terms of the focus, such as you have and Councilman Cohen and Councilman Ortiz and Councilwoman Reynolds Brown have pointed out the importance of lead paint. And the advocacy community. It's unprecedented where we've had two areas in the private sector, namely hospitals, that have come forward and said, "You know, we want to buy into this. We see the importance of this. We know it's not going to solve the problem, but we want to take on the responsibility as a leader and say we are going to fund an abatement of at least one house in our service area." Two hospitals have come forward to do that. No small amount of that came from the energy of community advocates like PCCY that have really kept this effort in the forefront. And so because of all the things, the stuff that we've been able to do as a department and working -- you know, the other thing I'm quick to point out is, the Health Department has a long and distinguished history of not being able to do this alone. So recognizing that, we brought our partners 40 04/08/03 - WHOLE to the table on this. We brought certainly the Law Department where they created Lead Court, which has been a tremendous value to us. The Department of Human Services is at the table with us. L&I is at the table with us. OESS, Office of Emergency Shelter Services, is at the table with us. Plus PHA, OHCD, and PHDC are all at the table with us. We meet regularly to bring these things together. The people that committed to funding us for another $550,000 yesterday said, "We've never seen anything like this. We would like to tell the people in other communities across the state about the kind of a program you have in Philadelphia and the kind of coordinated approach that you have." I think that those kinds of things are things that make it possible for us to have a tremendous amount of optimism to go along with the determination that exists in this government, in this department, in this Council, in this community to commit to children and not have this permanently impair the cognitive ability of children.
We appreciate that. We're pleased to know that the departments do talk to each other. It has been beneficial to us in this 41 04/08/03 - WHOLE City and we appreciate your leadership on that. One other place I think we ought to look toward, since the federal government has regulations, we might look to our Congressional Delegation. Maybe they can help find us some money to do that too. We will help you with that. Thank you very much.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Ortiz.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Commissioner, I feel lousy today. In terms of the program that you began with the high schools, could you please tell me where that is at and how is it proceeding and how many high schools you have gone to at this point. And what is the process for students to get tested and so on?
What Councilman Ortiz is referring to is an unprecedented collaboration between the School District of Philadelphia and the Department of Public Health to deal with an epidemic in the City of Philadelphia of sexually transmissible diseases, particularly gonorrhea and 42 04/08/03 - WHOLE chlamydia, among our children, especially among the children to years of age. 4 We have gone in with, not only the 5 cooperation, but the encouragement of the School 6 District of Philadelphia to the high schools. And 7 we began January 7th. And as of this date we have 8 been in some 12 high schools and have tested 9 somewhere in the neighborhood of -- by the time 10 we're finished, by the end of the school year, we 11 will have accessed about 50,000 children with 12 educational sessions. So far we have tested about 13 4,500 children in the schools. That may be a little 14 more than that at this point. 15 What's so unique about this is people 16 that go in and do these sessions, educational 17 sessions in the schools, are kind of at the same 18 level of the student in terms of age, in terms of 19 where they are. After we do the session, we offer the students an opportunity to provide a urine sample to be tested. Once that test is done, and should the test turn out positive, we then provide an ability for the student to contact us for results. And then the student has an option: The student can receive treatment either at the school 43 04/08/03 - WHOLE or the student can receive treatment at his or her own healthcare provider or the student could come to one of the City health centers.
How is the process? The testing is not obligatory; is that true?
The student goes up to the person who is giving the lecture, I would imagine, and requests to be tested?
What we do is we have a kit. It looks very much like a brown paper bag. And in the kit is a urine specimen container and some educational material. Everybody who attends the session gets one. We ask everybody to turn the bag in at the end of the session. So nobody knows who gave a specimen and who didn't. It's completely anonymous. People don't single themselves out and say, "Yes, I'm the one that's going to be tested." So we have it done in a way where people feel comfortable.
Well, do you have a number on the bag, or what? How do you know which 44 04/08/03 - WHOLE student turned in a urine sample?
We speak with the student. We get a name and contact information to be able to follow-up.
How do you do that? How do you get the name of that student?
When it's turned in there's a discussion with each one and we have that contact information on each one.
What is fascinating about this is that in sessions like this, you end up with maybe 10, percent of people saying, "Yes, 15 I'll get tested." 16 What we're seeing in the schools, as 17 many as 60 percent of the kids that we give this 18 information to elect to be tested. And the 19 positivity rate underscores the need for this kind 20 of --
Well, it does. There's a figure that's been used. The Centers for Disease Control does something called the Behavioral Risk 45 04/08/03 - WHOLE Survey in which students and people are asked about their risk behaviors. And in Philadelphia some 67 percent of kids in school self-identify as being sexually active. So this is a very valuable program.
I believe that's the number, yes. It may be a little larger now.
Well, it varies by sex. In males it's percent. Overall, of all of the people we test, all of the students we test, the positivity rate is percent. That's 3 percent for males. 10.5 percent for women. Now, these are children walking around with an infection, an active infection, that they don't know about. No symptoms.
I believe we were in 12 of them at this point. We will be through all of them by the end of the year.
Yes. Well, we're going to be in all the high schools. I think there's something like 46 high schools that we'll be in.
Commissioner, I'm much concerned about the treatment process. Do you have a way of determining whether the student gets treatment or not?
Now, what do you do if I don't get care and I continue to walk around and possibly transmit this infection? Do you do anything about people that deny treatment?
At this point, the situation has changed in that now, not only do we think you may be at risk, but we now know you are infected. And what we will do -- and we do this in a very discreet way. But we will follow-up with you and contact you. We've asked for contact information. And we will work with you and encourage you to get into treatment. Sometimes the person just has forgotten, that, "Oh, yes, I can 47 04/08/03 - WHOLE come back to school and get treated." Or, "Yes, I had an appointment to come back and I just forgot about it," with everything else that's going on in their lives. Or they're saying, you know, I really don't want to come back to school and will have forgotten that, yes, you can go to your private physician or you can come to one of health centers. We make very special arrangements in our health centers.
Is a private physician required to report that to the Health Department when they treat a person with a disease?
Gonorrhea and chlamydia are reportable diseases in Philadelphia. What we will do is we will verify -- the student will tell us where they got treated. We will verify with the clinician that that treatment occurred. It's important, not only that the patient gets treated, but the patient gets treated with the right antibiotic.
Do you have the numbers of kids who have gotten infected by areas, 48 04/08/03 - WHOLE like Zip codes, for example?
Do you have addresses for all these kids who have been infected --
-- so that you can check out certain places, certain areas, and so on?
Councilman, if we had better visual aides, I could show you a map. I could show you a map and where we have concentrations, heaviest concentration in the City. There's virtually no area of the City that is not impacted by this, but there are areas of the City that are impacted higher than others. When we looked at a map of the City of Philadelphia, you come right down from the north to the south and you stop at City Hall and you make a right, if you're coming north to south, that's a lot of where we have a lot of our --
We can show that. We can show that with all of our epidemiologic data on this. We'll be happy, President, to send that you 49 04/08/03 - WHOLE to Council.
Of the total population -- how many high schools did you say you have gone to?
The whole number, I think we're talking about 50,000 students.
How many have gone through the process? Of 50,000 students, how many have taken advantage of the --
We've probably given the presentations between 8,000 and 10,000 students, of which we've actually tested somewhere in the neighborhood of 5,000 or 6,000.
So a whole lot of other students have not taken advantage of at least learning about this thing? 50 04/08/03 - WHOLE
I think the other way to look at it, is a huge number have. And those that haven't, they may go to their own private physician and say, "Look, I'm not going to get tested here. I have a source of care. I don't mind doing that. I'll go there. They've already said I could go to the health center and get tested." Maybe they'll do that. So we think that that's the minimum number.
Let me go into that. I was going into the HIV. How is the spread of HIV going in the City? Has it leveled off? Have we seen areas of the City where HIV is increasing? Are there other places where we have seen definable decreases in HIV contagions and so on?
Well, there are two pieces. First of all, with regard to HIV, we don't know because HIV is not reportable. We do know about AIDS.
We do know about AIDS. I really have a hard time talking about leveling off. We've had about 1200, 1100 to 1200 cases of AIDS last year. That would have been within about 40 cases of the year before. I don't see that number of cases being leveling off. I think it's a huge problem. Now, where it is, are there areas? Absolutely. And where it is in Philadelphia, right smack in the middle of the communities of color. Poor communities, communities of color, it's there. And what's interesting about Philadelphia is that apart from other cities, the exposure pathways are much different here.
In Philadelphia, the most frequent avenue of people being exposed is in injection drug use. The next is heterosexual sexual transmission and the third is men having sex with men. That's where our whole -- we're going through a whole process now of looking for ways to continue to build on the success we've had getting our money out into community-based organizations and in the 52 04/08/03 - WHOLE communities where we know transmission --
Could you give me details as to where the AIDS epidemic is impacting? You said communities of color. But in North Philadelphia? In South Philly? Where is it impacting?
I would again show you a map, and I'll be happy to get that for you. Not too different. Not that other communities aren't impacted, but where the major impact is, is in that band, in the middle of the City. That's really where our prevention and follow-up resources have to be focused and distributed.
In Center City, have we seen an increase within the gay and lesbian community at all? Because that was a community heavily impacted at one point.
I think that there are certain aspects of this where we have seen some increases. For example, we're dealing with an issue now of syphilis, and I've asked Joe Cronauer if he would come over. He's director of our AIDS Activities Coordinating Office, to talk with a little more specificity on this important subject. 53 04/08/03 - WHOLE
I'm Joe Cronauer, Director of the AIDS Activities Coordinating Office. In the community of men having sex with men, which is one of the primary modes of transmission for HIV, it is right now the third leading cause of HIV transmission in the City of Philadelphia. It's still a disproportionately impacted community because of the size. It's hard to get numbers. The size of the community is relatively small, given the amount of burden they have for the HIV epidemic. So there are very tailored programs that we have specific to outreach in HIV testing media and the rest for all three of the major communities; men having sex with men, IDU and heterosexual sexual transmission. In the issue of syphilis, we're seeing a rise in syphilis cases amongst men having sex with men. That is similar to other major cities like New York and San Francisco seeing the same thing. So now what we're doing is piggybacking STD prevention messages on all of our HIV prevention messages to remind people that HIV, although it's an important issue, it's not the only issue for that particular community. 54 04/08/03 - WHOLE
The numbers are pretty small. Nationally, there's a syphilis elimination program that the CDC is undergoing to try and eliminate syphilis transmission in the country. In Philadelphia, I think we've seen maybe cases so 9 far this year. About half of them are amongst men 10 who have sex with men, which is pretty significant. 11 The numbers are low. The percentage amongst men who 12 have sex with men is high. 13
I thought syphilis 14 was something out of the 1950s. 15
It's here again. The 16 numbers are still low, which is why now is the time 17 to deal with the problem. 18
It's nice to know. 19 Obviously, that will spread to other communities 20 across the City as it goes on? 21
Yes, exactly. This is 22 why we're trying to have an impact on it now when 23 the numbers are still low so that we can keep it 24 from spreading any further. 25
So the program is in 55 04/08/03 - WHOLE place, Commissioner? Do you have a program in place?
We're working with all of our providers right now doing prevention, HIV prevention. And last year we were able to significantly reduce -- I think we cut the number of MSM cases in half. I think that was two years ago, and it's relatively stable. Now we're seeing it increase. So we've called together all of our community-based providers who have been so successful in partnering with us in getting the word out, getting the message out, getting people into testing and getting people into treatment. They're around the table with us working strategies to bring people into treatment.
Commissioner, could you give us those figures and maps in terms of where AIDS, syphilis, these things are happening?
Yes, sir. I just made a note to myself to make sure we get that over to you.
The Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter. 56 04/08/03 - WHOLE
Thank you, Madam Chair. I actually did not have a question for Commissioner Domzalski. I have a question that is more pertinent for Public Property, although I do not believe that they are here. So I'd like to ask Mr. Dubow, as I think he's generally the highest ranking representative of the Administration, if he could take the question. Mr. Dubow, I seem to recall a couple years ago in a budget hearing -- and actually, I think that Councilman Rizzo may have expressed some concerns about this issue. He and I haven't had a chance to talk about this. Now, the City has a contract with a company for the advertising on the bus shelters; is that correct?
I seem to recall that there were, I believed, at that time, some restrictions on the type of ads that could be displayed on those bus shelters, and specifically I seem to remember -- and I have not pulled the notes of testimony because I can't remember what year this was -- I thought that there was a specific 57 04/08/03 - WHOLE prohibition on alcohol and tobacco ads on the bus shelters. And in recent times, both in my district and other places, I have seen ads for alcoholic beverages, beer. A couple of them are structured in such a way that they portray a beer can somehow matted over or in the shape of a woman's body. And I think that at two levels these particular advertisements are completely inappropriate on a City-owned bus shelter for which the City generates revenue. One, they are sexist in nature. And two, I don't know that we should be in the business of generating revenue from alcoholic beverages as a City government. Can you get us some information quickly about that issue? I thought -- and I'm not putting my colleague on the spot -- I seem to remember that there was supposed to be a provision in our lease agreement that specifically prohibited that type of advertising, or if it did not specifically prohibit it, that it was within the Public Property Commissioner's discretion to prohibit such ads. And I've noticed a recent almost kind of explosion of them, as I indicated. Some are in the district that I represent and I've seen others in other places. 58 04/08/03 - WHOLE So it's not unique to the 4th District. And I'd like to get an answer to that particular issue. I don't know why we're in that business.
I've not dealt with that issue, but we'll get you information quickly.
You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilman Rizzo.
Thank you. Commissioner, I just want to go back briefly to the high schools and the infection rate, the various infections that you identified. Commissioner, could you leave us today and ensure me that anyone that tests positive is being treated?
Yes. Yes, in the sense that they either will come back to the school to be treated or we will outreach and determine what is happening with treatment. Eventually they will be treated.
So what I'm hearing today is that someone takes the test, tests 59 04/08/03 - WHOLE positive. What would be the period of time that you would -- your time line -- that after 30 days, after 60 days? How quickly will you assure that that student is contacted and treated or the information -- my concern is the bureaucracy. If the student goes to the private doctor, the information flows back and forth because you could have a number of young people out there that you know have this infection and not have the process to assure that they're all treated.
We would either treat or verify treatment within 10 days at the outside.
Yes. Yes, they can. However, we've never had that. I mean, we've never had that. If a child is refusing treatment, there's something else going on. We'll sit and we'll talk with them. We'll have our doc talk with them. They will be treated.
It is an antibiotic. It's one dose, and I believe that it's a Pfizer 60 04/08/03 - WHOLE product, azithromycin, I believe.
So you're fairly confident that all of the people that test positive for this, for an infection, are not out there still walking around with an infection, that they're treated within days? 8
No, not the original 9 one. One of the things we need to make sure is that 10 we provide the education to children, and these are children aged 15 to 19 years old about how they got the disease and what they really need to do to prevent this from happening again.
I don't want to disappoint you, Commissioner. During this whole process we haven't talked about the needle exchange program. How is it working?
Well, Councilman, I want to make sure I stay within my area of expertise and give you really good information, so I'll call my colleague, Mr. Bencivengo, who has information.
My concern is the common complaints that we get. It's not so much the program. It's in many cases the locale of the program; near schools, near populated areas that 61 04/08/03 - WHOLE people feel as though it's bad for their neighborhood. I haven't heard too much of that lately, so I just thought maybe we'd take a minute to get us up to speed on how the program is doing.
My name is Mark Bencivengo, Assistant Health Commissioner in charge of the Drug and Alcohol Program in the City of Philadelphia. You're absolutely right, Councilman. I think a couple of years ago, and prior to that time even, I don't think a week went by that I didn't hear something about some kind of a complaint. Generally, it came from the same group of people, but nevertheless, there were complaints about the locations. And in a couple of cases where we had some concerns like that, we did work with Prevention Point Philadelphia to relocate the needle exchange to an area that was less problematic. I am very happy to say that in the last couple of years, I have heard virtually nothing in the way of complaints voiced by residents of neighborhoods where the exchange is working. I do think, though, that it remains a potentially controversial area. Harm reduction programs have elicited mixed feelings 62 04/08/03 - WHOLE on the part of people looking at them. I think, though, the literature over the last several years has been overwhelmingly positive with regard to needle exchange in a number of areas. One, not contributing to an increase in drug use; and two, addressing the spread of HIV to a very high risk population. I believe the Commissioner talked about the various modes of transmission in Philadelphia and identified injection drug use right now as probably the number one reason that we're seeing for people becoming HIV-positive and eventually being identified with AIDS. So I think in a City like Philadelphia where there are a fairly large number of injection drug users, where opiates are a fairly popular drug, unfortunately, and where there is some resurgence in the use of heroin, not just in Philadelphia, but across the nation -- my colleagues in some other cities where they're not very familiar with heroin are now seeing it. I think having something like a community-based activity like Prevention Point Philadelphia is absolutely essential to address the spread of HIV in this particular population. And the program is actually 63 04/08/03 - WHOLE doing quite well.
Well, good. Obviously, you've made some adjustments and have made the program more acceptable to people that don't accept the program. As you mentioned, it's a very controversial issue. But I think by tweaking it and getting it out of sight in some communities that look at it as objectionable work -- because the complaints that I have received have stopped. The only question I would like to end with is that there was an accusation which recently -- the reason I'm bringing this up today is I got a telephone call from a mom in New Jersey that tells me that her daughter still continues to come to Philadelphia to get her syringes. That's troubling, if we're supporting the drug habit of a person in another state, or anywhere, even here, inappropriately. Have you been able to work at that problem?
Actually, I believe that the former Governor of the State of New Jersey did commission a report and had a group of folks working on needle exchange in the State of New Jersey, and I believe that the recommendation that 64 04/08/03 - WHOLE was given to her by a commission which she had established was for New Jersey to implement syringe exchange programs in that state. That did not happen. I believe that the current Governor McGreevey is a bit more open to having syringe exchanges in the State of New Jersey, certainly in a City like Newark and some of the upstate counties in New Jersey where there are fairly high rates of opiate and injection drug use. I would, as a professional in the area, recommend syringe exchanges. We do not ask people where they're from and deny syringes to people coming from out of state or outside the City of Philadelphia. I think not only in the case of New Jersey, but Philadelphia and Allegheny County are probably about the only two places in the state right now that have syringe exchange programs, and we are clearly not the only two counties in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania that have opiate drug users. I'm sure there are folks from Lower Bucks that come to our syringe exchange. And the issue, from a public health perspective, is to prevent the spread of HIV and AIDS, and so we do not ask people where they're 65 04/08/03 - WHOLE from, and if they're not from this county, tell them they cannot participate.
Help me answer the question. You could save me a phone call. A person comes from New Jersey. They come over the Walt Whitman Bridge. They come to our exchange program. They have no drugs in the car. They leave the site. They have -- how many syringes do you give them?
About eight in a starter kit, unless they're bringing something back.
Now, they're going back over the Walt Whitman Bridge. The Delaware River Port Authority Police stop them. They have eight syringes that you just gave them. Is that legal?
In the State of Pennsylvania the possession of injection drug equipment is not legal. I can't really say for the State of New Jersey. I believe there are only about seven states in the United States where the possession of injection drug equipment -- or injection equipment is illegal. So I guess it would depend on what side they get caught.
So they get caught on 66 04/08/03 - WHOLE our side. They could be arrested for something they just got from us?
They could be arrested. We have ID cards for folks that are users of the syringe. There are rare occurrences where there will be a situation, even here in Philadelphia, where an individual leaving the syringe exchange or even going to the syringe exchange may be stopped by the local police. I would say that the Police Department in Philadelphia has been very cooperative in working with us. We've met with their legal counsel, when need be. The Prevention Point Philadelphia meets routinely with the district captains and we have very, very few problems in Philadelphia. It's not something that cannot happen, that injection drug equipment can be confiscated and perhaps taken away. We had a couple of cases sometime ago where an individual was arrested and the DA's Office worked with us around that. Generally, if they're frequenting the syringe exchange. And can show that they've frequented the syringe exchange, these case are not going to go anywhere.
Thank you very much. 67 04/08/03 - WHOLE Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you very much. Are there any other questions? Councilman Ortiz.
I just want to make a point on the program. It's one of the most successful programs ever instituted in terms of preventing the HIV/AIDS spread in the City. I remember when we began the process in this City of hearings and discussions in '86, '87. We had hearings -- Mark, you were here. At that point, it was really a huge epidemic. It still is an epidemic. But at that point it was no one wanted to deal with the solutions that had to be there. Rendell and both -- when Rendell said it's going to happen, even though it's illegal, it is a health prevention measure that we need to institute if we're going to protect the masses of the citizens of Philadelphia. And when you do needle exchange points, you've got to go to where the people that are using the needles are. And those are the points that we have been able to institute it. And I think our program in the City has become a model, if 68 04/08/03 - WHOLE anything, to be emulated across the nation. If the young woman is coming across the bridge, at least we know she's not going to be spreading the virus. She got the needle. I think that's the answer you give to the mother. If you know your daughter is a user, it's better that she's able to have access to needles or to treatment, rather than tell her when she comes across the bridge, you can't have it. Because she's going to use a needle, and it's probably going to be a used needle and then she's going to have AIDS and HIV and then we're going to have a problem.
We are non-judgmental in this regard, but we do encourage people to seek treatment. We make referrals to treatment. Not everyone wants to go to treatment. But we're always there encouraging folks to address their drug issue. We are primarily trying to stop the spread of HIV, but we do want to see people get into treatment, and that program does function as a bridge to treatment and reaches people that are on the margins.
We had testimony here from Sylvester Johnson. As long as we're the center of the best heroin on the East Coast -- and it seems 69 04/08/03 - WHOLE that we have the best heroin on the East Coast warehoused in the City of Philadelphia. No matter what anybody says about anything in terms of programs out on the streets and so on, we are the center of that heroin program and heroin stash. As long as we're that, we are going to be a center where people are going to come to buy drugs and use drugs and so on. The Health Department, our Health Department, is going to have to be very much aware of what's needed to be done. So I commend you on that. That resisted, by the way. You resisted all of the bad publicity, all of the stuff that came down, and I've got to say the Mayor resisted it and you resisted it, and I commend you for that process.
Thank you very much. Are there any other questions? (No response.)
There being none, thank you very much. The Chair recognizes and calls the Office of Emergency Shelter Services. Good afternoon. 70 04/08/03 - WHOLE
Good afternoon, Madam Chair. Mr. Hess, Deputy Managing Director for Special Needs Housing.
Yes. Mr. Hess, I requested that you come back because I have been requested by two gentlemen who are social workers in this office have asked to testify and I need to have you here to respond to their questioning. And I have some questions. So we'll ask Mr. Glen Davis and Mr. Glen Reed and Victor McDavis to come forward. They have testimony. Good afternoon. Would you identify yourself for the record as you proceed to testify?
Yes. Good afternoon. My name is Glen Reed, and I'm a social worker too at the Office of Emergency Shelter and Services, and I work in the Emergency Relocation Unit.
My name is Victor McDavis and I'm a social worker too, and I work as a case manager at the Office of Emergency Shelter and Services.
Do you want to testify? You have some comments you want to make? 71 04/08/03 - WHOLE
Yes. The reason why we're here today is because we feel that City Council should be aware that currently at the Office of Emergency Shelter and Services, we have a crisis there. The service that we're giving the citizens of Philadelphia, I don't think we're doing the best job that we can. I think if people like myself and Mr. McDavis, if we don't come here and notify City Council of what's going on, I think that it will be continuous and it will go into year 2004, 2005. I have been working for the City of Philadelphia for years, and I've been working at 14 the Emergency Shelter and Services back when it was called OSHA. We're not here necessarily to ask for more money. We think that the money, whatever it is that you determine our office should have, I think we can spend it better. I think that presently our concerns are how our clients are being treated at the Office of Emergency Shelter and Services. I think that there are a number of issues that need to be addressed. We've tried to address it at our office for years. It's come to a point where I think that we needed to bring it to City Council's attention. Because I 72 04/08/03 - WHOLE think if they found out what's going on from the people they represent, I think that they would want to hear what's going and want to intervene. We made a statement that we brought along with us.
Do you want to read that, please? I think it would be more specific.
Yes. We wanted to take you through the intake process at the Office of Emergency Shelter and Services. Starting on the first page, it says, if you and your family were applying at OESS for emergency shelter or services today, this is what you would go through. First, if you had a young child in a baby coach, when you arrived at 141 North Juniper, you would have to lift your baby coach up six concrete steps to get into the office. Hopefully, no one in the party is handicapped and confined to a wheelchair, because the handicap lift rarely works. Once your family is in the building, everyone is frisked by security and given a number that's handwritten on cardboard and told to have a seat in the waiting room until your number is 73 04/08/03 - WHOLE called. The wait could be anywhere from a few minutes to the entire day. The length of the waiting period also depends on what time you arrive and who's working the front window. When your number is finally called, the person you encounter in the front window is a service rep. The service rep will ask you what service you're applying for at OESS that day. The service rep has the power to grant or deny you service. If the service rep determines that your are absolutely having a housing problem, then the service rep will place you on the appropriate log sheet and enter some of your personal information on the computer. Some of the questions the service rep asks while you're standing in line in front of other people, questions like: What is your name? What is your social security number and birthday? Do you have any medical problems and do you take any medication? Do you have any mental health issues? Are you pregnant? Are you a veteran? The questions continue. Answering the above questions in an open area, we feel, is a breach of confidentiality. And we believe it's dehumanizing to stand at the window 74 04/08/03 - WHOLE and tell your personal information where other people can hear you. Once the service rep determines you are eligible for shelter, you are given an orientation date, which is when you will first speak to a social worker for an assessment of your housing emergency. The orientation is usually scheduled anywhere from three to four weeks later. In the meantime, you are placed in the shelter paid by the City. There is no 11 assessment done. There is no counseling. There's no hard copy record. OESS may be found liable for placing clients who were not assessed with permanent shelter residence. In other words, for example, we had a child molester placed in a shelter that was for families. Also, since you have not yet spoken to a social worker, you are not required to pay shelter fees and you're not required to save your money. Now that you and your family are placed in the shelter, depending on available shelter space, you and your family may be sleeping in a single room, a lounge area or any space at a shelter that can be transformed into a sleeping area. The dilemmas that we see that are connected to the 75 04/08/03 - WHOLE example that we just gave you earlier is, first, there are not enough social workers and support staff at OESS in the intake unit to assess and address the volume of residents seeking emergency housing. Number two. On any given day, there are not enough shelter vacancies to accommodate the daily client demand. Number three. There are not enough social workers in the shelters to adequately address the intensive case management needed at the shelter for the residents. Number four. Resources at the shelters have been cut back by OESS, which limits the ability of social workers to provide essential services to shelter residents. For example, there have been cut backs at many shelters resulting in the suspension of immediate on-site drug testing. Funds for on-site drug testing and alcohol counseling have been taken away from many shelter provider budgets.
It should be noted that drug and alcohol screening is a powerful tool that is essential when dealing with many of the chronically homeless. If an on-site drug and alcohol screening -- if it's not 76 04/08/03 - WHOLE done in a timely manner, there is no way to determine a client's real sobriety. Number five. Once a family has been in shelter a minimum of 30 days and has saved $450 in their OESS saving account, they are eligible to apply for transitional housing. However, there is a lack of transitional housing vacancies. Eligible clients in shelters are currently on a waiting list. The wait may extend up to several months. Delaying a client's departure from shelter is costly to the City and money and man hours. Number six. There are not enough permanent housing programs to meet the current demand of the clients in shelter and those displaced by building emergencies. It should be noted there are a large number of clients entering the shelter system on a daily basis, yet there are limited opportunities to exit the shelter system and move into safe, secure, affordable housing. Number seven. On November 12th, 2002, OESS informed the social workers in the Emergency Relocation Unit that they were spending too much money from the Philadelphia Emergency Relocation account. The social workers were instructed to 77 04/08/03 - WHOLE decide which clients who have housing emergencies are most deserving of OESS Relocation money. In other words, no longer is the fact that you have a verifiable housing emergency enough to qualify you for a relocation payment. Your eligibility depends on the social worker's discretion. Also, depending on unknown variables, some clients are subject to an income guideline. In fact, it is true that there has been a substantial increase in the money used to relocate residents with building emergencies. However, according to the audit in 2002, the increase came from expenditures authorized by management, not social workers. For example, social workers are limited to making payments of no 16 more than $750. During the audit period, 33 clients received benefits of over $1,000, for a total of $150,803, or 36 percent, of the total expenditures through March 2002. Number eight. It should also be brought to the attention of City Council that the current chain of command and the insertion of the Office of Adult Services/Housing Support Center has made rectifying problems at OESS painfully difficult. We currently have four directors, one deputy director, 78 04/08/03 - WHOLE a deputy managing director and three assistant deputy managing directors. Resolving issues at OESS is chaotic and almost impossible.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Tasco.
Thank you. Mr. Hess, you have an opportunity to respond. I guess the question I want to ask is, what is the Office of Adult Services and what is the relationship between the Office of Adult Services and OESS? And how is OESS funded and where do the employees come from?
Thank you, Councilwoman. First, let me say that there is not an Office of Adult Services. However, under the previous Managing Director, Estelle Richman, created essentially an adult services structure that includes OESS, Riverview Home, the Office of HIV Planning, and the Housing Support Center, as well as the administrative support functions associated with each of those operating units under the kind of overall heading of Adult Services. And I'd be pleased to provide you with a copy of that organizational structure. We can do that this 79 04/08/03 - WHOLE afternoon, if you'd like.
The Managing Director organized this. Was it done through the Executive Order of the Mayor? It's a new department?
Councilwoman, it was not. My understanding is that there was an Executive Order that was prepared to create the Office of Adult Services that included the same operating units I just described, and that is still pending action in the Mayor's Office. But in reality, it is true that the structure has been largely operationalized.
I will give you a copy of the organizational structure. It means that it is essentially in place. It is real. It does not have any budget authority, obviously. The budget authority goes through OESS and DHS in this case.
Again, there's not an Office of Adult Services, but Adult Services in general was assigned to me as the Deputy Managing Director out 80 04/08/03 - WHOLE of the Managing Director's Office.
So you have Adult Services comes under you; you're the director?
And then who is in charge of Emergency Shelter, OESS?
Now, this department exists without an Executive Order?
Shouldn't an Executive Order be executed prior to the creation of a department? Who is from the Administration?
I think the intent, Councilwoman, of the previous Managing Director was to create this operating configuration that would ultimately become an office, if and when the Mayor signed the Executive Order. And I know that this is an issue that the current Managing Director is working on.
Mr. Dubow, do you have any response to the question about this department? 81 04/08/03 - WHOLE
Okay. So you expect an Executive Order to come down fairly soon?
I wouldn't want to speak for the Mayor on that, Councilwoman. I have not had a conversation with the Mayor about it. I do know that the Executive Order was drafted sometime ago and it is in the Mayor's Office pending disposition, and that's the extent of my knowledge.
Now, what about some of the other concerns that were raised by these two gentlemen?
With respect to the intake process that was described, which I think was directed toward the family intake system, we share a number of those concerns. And, in fact, the Director of OESS has been working with the RGI folks to begin a process in collaboration.
Reinventing Government Initiative. To begin a process that would be collaborative with management staff and union representation to review the intake processes and operational practices and to make some 82 04/08/03 - WHOLE recommendations for changes in that area.
Well, we had hoped that it would have already started. It is ready to start. My understanding is that as soon as there is union representation assigned to that process, it will begin. I'm reminded that this is especially timely for us because, as you may know, we've just begun developing and instituting a brand-new homeless management information system. And so it's critical to the implementation of that new system that we redesign the processes, the operational process, of intake now.
Is there a way for you to provide some privacy area during the intake process? I'm particularly concerned and share with these gentlemen the sharing of personal information in a room where everybody can hear it. Is there a way to provide some privacy for clients when they come in?
There is. The current kind of physical facility is far from ideal in this 83 04/08/03 - WHOLE regard. There are not, for example, private interview rooms.
There are cubicles. Yes, Madam President. There are, in fact, some partitions there that do offer a better interview space than certainly was described to you at the front desk. And I will be delighted to talk to the director and the administrator to see if we can effect some change there. But that has been an ongoing concern.
Councilwoman, while we're on that and we're going down this list, if I may. How about the handicapped and those who are confined to a wheelchair? If we ask everyone to make certain that their building is handicapped accessible, why wouldn't your office be handicapped accessible?
Well, again, it was poorly designed in terms of the entrance. There is a handicap lift side of the building. The handicap lift currently works. There have been maintenance 84 04/08/03 - WHOLE issues with respect to the lift over the last six to eight months that I'm aware of, and perhaps longer.
Well, there was a period of time when there were some significant maintenance issues. As it turns out, what had apparently happened is the lift had aged. When it aged, it would still work if there was nobody in it, but the belts became loose and the pulleys, I guess, were not adjusted properly. So if you actually got somebody in it that had any weight to them at all, it wouldn't go up all the way. So there was a period of time when it was necessary to get the thing re-engineered and the maintenance taken care of so that it works properly. It's my understanding it does work properly now. But it is less than ideal. The truth is that there are six steps that you have to walk up to get into that side of the building. Because of the design of that side of the building and the configuration of the street 85 04/08/03 - WHOLE being directly in front of that space, you really can't put in a handicapped ramp, and so you're kind of left with the steps and the lift. And, again, it is truthfully far from ideal, but it does work.
Well, when the lift is not in operation, how is a client serviced?
There have been a couple of occasions that I'm aware of when the lift has not been in service and we were able to redirect folks to 1321 Arch Street where there is an accessible building to interview folks. But, again, that's not an ideal situation.
The Chair recognizes Councilman Cohen for a point of order.
Mr. Dubow is ready to report on the meeting that took place before. It seems to me the testimony involving this is going to take some time. I'm wondering if we could interrupt the testimony for just a moment or two to permit Mr. Dubow to report to Council on what he's doing to resolve the records problem, and then permit him to go back to work on the problem. 86 04/08/03 - WHOLE Could we have that moment, a minute or two for Mr. Dubow at this point?
Well, he could certainly report what they're doing after we hear from this group. But, Councilman, I'll go along with your request. I think it's not going to be worked out this afternoon.
No, it's not going to be. That's what he wants to briefly report, but he wants us to know.
Mr. Dubow, give us your words of wisdom, please, how you're going to correct this issue.
We have set up a meeting with Mr. Godbolt for next Tuesday morning. I think the remaining outstanding issue is what constitutes a reasonable cost for him, and we're going to go through costs with him so that we can reach an agreement on what's reasonable.
Thank you. We have no questions. We wish you well. But remember the budget of the Records Department is at stake.
Thank you. 87 04/08/03 - WHOLE My apologies to those testifying, because you have an extremely important issue that you're dealing with currently.
Councilwoman Tasco, I think I interrupted you because I wanted to ask a question, so would you please proceed with your questioning?
I'm looking at this. This is not your question. I think what we need to do is have some follow-up on this because a lot of this has to do with the Administration. So I won't belabor you with this because you did not create this. You're the executive director. But it certainly has to be addressed by the Administration as I look at this sheet. Because some of the issues that have been raised here by these gentlemen also have issues relative to who do they report to. Is it the Office of Emergency Shelter or to the Office of Adult Services? Who's in charge?
With respect to the staff members within the Family and Single Shelter Services, they all report to the OESS Director through supervisors and administrators. With respect to Mr. Reed, who is 88 04/08/03 - WHOLE assigned, I believe, to the Relocation Unit, that unit is housed within the Housing Support Center, which reports to the director, who is Jerry Devine. However, in his case we're still going through the union notification meet and discuss process, negotiation process for work rules and so forth. Because it's envisioned that there will be staff members in the Housing Support Center that historically have been assigned to OESS, and other staff members that have historically been assigned to DHS. The concept of the Housing Support Center is that a number of social service agencies have historically had housing units, and those housing units have been disconnected. And so for example, you might see someone come in to emergency shelter and need drug and alcohol treatment and go to CODAAP and get that treatment through a provider, end up in a recovery house for six to nine months, and then kind of be discharged from that recovery house without a housing plan. What then likely happens is that person may relapse and end up back in the shelter system. What we're trying to do -- and it is 89 04/08/03 - WHOLE admittedly a new concept, but what we're trying to do with the Housing Support Center is have a single point of entry for housing resources beyond emergency shelter and to coordinate those activities so that in the example that I gave you, for example, before that person left the recovery house, they would leave with a housing plan that would get them into either transitional or permanent housing to make it less likely that they're going to relapse, less likely to end up in the shelter system again. That's the concept. But in order to do that, it takes kind of an unprecedented effort of staff members that have historically been in different departments working together in the same unit. And we're, frankly, still trying to figure out how to make that work effectively. But the concept, we believe, is sound, to bring all housing resources together, other than emergency shelter, under one gatekeeping operation so that there's kind of a seamless delivery of services and people don't fall out of one system inadvertently and end up ultimately back on our streets or back in our emergency shelter system.
Excuse me, Chairwoman 90 04/08/03 - WHOLE Verna. Can I reply?
Please identify yourself for the record, please.
Mr. McDavis, can you speak directly into the microphone?
I want to bring to your attention -- I have a copy of labor management meeting minutes from November 27, 2002. These minutes were actually written by someone from Mr. Hess's staff, so these are the official minutes. It states, "In the meantime, Ms. Stock, 2187 President, has asked Mr. Devine to refrain from meeting with his staff in order to discuss the housing operation plan. All of the necessary information can be shared with the union stewards who will then pass on the information to other members. Mr. Devine said that he would comply with the union's request." What's at issue is not the nature of exactly what Mr. Hess is planning or what the Mayor may sign off on. What's at issue is the fact that the plan has been implemented without, one, the 91 04/08/03 - WHOLE Mayor signing off on it; and, two, without it being negotiated in terms of our work rules and changes with the union. This has not happened. And so you have a situation with my colleague here, Mr. Reed, who previously reported to the Director of OESS and in the minutes, as is stated, that Mr. Hess has agreed, along with Mr. Devine, not to have our members report to Mr. Devine. So in essence, who does Mr. Reed report to? What I'm saying is, is that we have a plan, we have a new structure, but none of this has been fully implemented. Even the housing center. It sounds good on paper, but none of this has been negotiated. None of it has been put into place. And basically what you still have is basically the same OESS structure, but you just have a different level of management. Now that's supervising staff that were previously part of OESS.
Madam President, I might want to suggest that we have the Managing Director come and explain to us what is going on, and someone from the Administration to talk about this new creation.
Fine. I think 92 04/08/03 - WHOLE we need that. At this time, the Chair recognizes Councilwoman Blackwell.
Thank you, Madam President. I would like to apologize to Mr. Reed and to Mr. McDavis. I've heard this three or four times and I've spoken with Mr. Hess and, I believe in one meeting, Mr. Schaffer, about this, and certainly this was before Estelle left. So it's been several months ago. And I've heard these complaints. I've heard others about Mr. Devine. I've heard the fears of Joe Mitchell going back to Seattle. I've heard so many of these complaints before about Mr. Brazil (ph) being needed and losing his position. I've tried to meet with Mr. Hess, and he will agree to that. And I thought that we were on a road to resolving things, but the issues you gentlemen bring before us today are the same issues we talked about in detail. I mean, the exact same issues you brought to us before; the social workers, intake, screening, social workers, people being placed for weeks without being diagnosed, those with DNA problems not even having to take urines so that 93 04/08/03 - WHOLE we know who is with who, a person accused of a rape is in with general population. All of these issues we talked about before and I talked to Mr. Hess about. I owe you an apology because I thought they were being addressed. I wanted to be used as somebody to try to bring us together to get them solved. And, obviously, any time you have come here today before the whole Body, you feel they haven't. And certainly we want to make sure that you are protected, that your jobs are protected. I know it takes a lot of courage to fight for what one believes in, even given the fact that you have long years of service. And it takes a lot of courage to come forward for the defenseless and the voiceless who otherwise would be just left after. So I applaud you for that. And certainly, Mr. Hess, obviously, these issues haven't been resolved or they wouldn't be here, since these are the exact same issues. I agree with Councilwoman Tasco that some of us have to sit down now in a larger forum and deal with each of these issues. Frankly, I'm disappointed. Every 94 04/08/03 - WHOLE country is judged by the way it takes care of its poor. In America it's what we're supposed to pride ourselves on. And, as you know, all of you know, this is my issue. I'm just disappointed that we are still here and that we don't have some of these basic issues of service resolved. Maybe at this point what we need to do is, as was suggested, have a group of us, Mr. Reed and Mr. McDavis, involved in the meetings, yourself and whoever you deem, Mr. Hess. Certainly the people we've heard of, Mr. Devine complaints, and Mr. Brazil with fear of being moved, and Mr. Mitchell who wants to stay and is afraid he's got to leave. I hear them all over and over and over and over and over and over. But like I said, I'm just disappointed. So I don't know who else would need to be involved. But we absolutely need to immediately sit down to meet with these issues and to resolve them. We can't treat people any way other than decently and with dignity and give them hope. A person shouldn't be homeless already and come into a place and be insulted or not respected. They're already victims one time or two times or three times when we meet them, and so we have to do our part to 95 04/08/03 - WHOLE respect them. I applaud these men for coming forward, and again apologize that they felt they had to mention these same issues that they've mentioned to me at least three times in the last six months. So, Madam President, I concur. I agree with my colleague, Councilwoman Tasco, that some of us need to sit down in a meeting immediately, in the next week to 10 days to deal with this issue and all the issues here point by point with the plan of resolving them.
Well, I notice Ms. Wilkerson just walked into the room and maybe she could be assistance in that too.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Mr. Hess, you were here before just a couple weeks ago.
We asked a lot of 96 04/08/03 - WHOLE questions and you didn't give us the right answers. That makes us angry. At least me. This is more than testimony. This is an indictment of the way you run the place. And I'd like an answer in writing on each of these things. It's not days. 7 I think you and your staff have to sit down and put 8 together an answer to each one of these, what is the 9 plan, what is the solution, and bring it before this 10 Council. This is going to be resolved right here. You're going to present this so that people and the homeless and the poor of this City can have some sort of faith in the institutions that are supposed to treat them. This is not going to be resolved by committees or whatever. This is going to resolved by you presenting to this Council in front of us and in front of the public how these questions that have been raised are going to be resolved. This is shameful. It's shameful that a sex offender, a child sex offender, is put into the population. If anything had happened to any kid there -- I don't know how you could live with yourself if anything had gone down. I am saying to you -- I'm not going to go through this because I think we would have you 97 04/08/03 - WHOLE here all day. It isn't days. You sit down. You answer these questions. You resolve these issues. You come back to this City Council with a plan of how it's going to resolve. And if it's more money, what resources are needed? And if you say you can't get them, you better put that down too. You say we can't do that because there is no money. Resources will not be allocated for that. You put that down.
Councilman, we'd be happy to do exactly that. I'll look forward to the opportunity to give you a full and complete answer to each and every one of these questions. We look forward to that. I would really appreciate having a copy of each of the questions and allegations so that we can look into them thoroughly and so we can respond completely and honestly.
I'll bring the minutes of your last testimony here. Because we asked questions, and answers were not given. Thank you, Madam Chair.
We asked the conditions of intake. None of these problems were 98 04/08/03 - WHOLE given.
Councilman, I will re-look at those answers and expand on them.
I'd like to say this is a twofold problem. What we ought to have, Mr. Hess, in addition to answering the issues that have been raised, is the plan of operation of OESS. What happens to a client from the day they walk in? And as you all -- that department -- reviews the entire process, look at what happens to a client. Where it happens to him. How it happens. So that you can assess the quality of service that the client is needing. If the quality of service is not what it should be, then you all need to look at what it takes to make the quality of service better for the client. The other issue is not yours. The other is an Administrative issue, that we have some issues around. I think that Ms. Wilkerson is here. We can ask her about the organization. And it's not your doing. It was the Managing Director who did it. 99 04/08/03 - WHOLE But you are in charge of the department. So we want to look at the entire service -- quality of service for clients who come into the City to receive service, how is it? What is it? Do you agree with what's going on? Numbers on a cardboard box is not good enough. There are tickets you can buy. Just look at what happens to an individual, whether they're homeless, whatever, an emergency from a fire. They have to be treated with dignity. Your staff has to understand that. And you have to put the proper service pieces in place so that the quality of service is delivered in a dignified way. And I'm sure that you want that. I've worked with you before. We understand the concerns raised by these gentlemen. I think once we come together and kind of talk about all of that, we can work it out. You've got to have some delineation of who these people report to. Who do they report to? Where do they go? That has to be worked out. You just can't take forever. You're just going to have to take the initiative to do it.
Thank you. Ms. Wilkerson, if you don't mind taking the witness table, I think Councilwoman Tasco has some questions that she would like to ask you.
Ms. Wilkerson, some issues have been raised by some of the staff members from OESS relative to the Office of Adult Services. I understand that this department should be established by an Executive Order. Could you give us the status of that Executive Order?
I didn't know that would be an issue today. I will check on that and try to get back to Council within the next day or so on that. I don't have an answer now.
All right. That just came up during the course of a call-back and we do need a discussion about that because there's some confusion about labor issues and -- I mean, you all have the authority and the right to work out, but 101 04/08/03 - WHOLE it's been two years, I understand, and I think we will need to find out how it's going to be resolved.
Thank you. Does anyone else have any questions? Councilwoman Blackwell.
Thank you, Madam President. May I request that during this meeting perhaps we can talk about other organizational issues that have been brought to my attention so that we have a full airing and can report back to the Council with regard to all these issues, as well as the Housing Support Center and other organizational issues that have arisen?
Thank you. Thank you, Madam President. I don't know who else might want to sit in, but we can coordinate through the Chief of Staff's office to schedule that meeting. Is that all right?
I wanted to know what's the impact of the cuts in the Rendell Administration on the availability of shelter beds. Is there any impact on that?
Yes. I think Mr. Hess can respond more directly. This is one of those areas where the Rendell cuts will have a fairly devastating impact.
Councilman, the effect of the state cuts as they currently stand could be as much as the loss of about 900 shelter beds. So we are diligently working with the Budget Office and the Division of Social Service folks to figure out how to mitigate some of that devastating effect.
That 900 would be on top of the 200 that the Street Administration itself cut last year; is that correct?
Actually, I think they've been largely added back. But yes. 103 04/08/03 - WHOLE
Added back to the system. The reductions we were able to take last year as a result of the census going down for the year, that trend changed in June and has been an upward increase in singles, also, and families experiencing homelessness in our City of 5 and 8 percent this winter. And so for next year's budget, at the request of Councilwoman Blackwell, and after consultation with the Mayor and others, we have added back those beds and some additional beds from other systems, principally DHS and Behavioral Health.
What happens now when a person needs shelter? What happened in the height of the winter, say, in February of this year? Was there a shelter, a bed, available for everyone who needed it?
There was. We did have to open a couple of rec centers at certain points throughout the winter to be able to handle the overflow, but we worked closely with the Department of Recreation to make those facilities available. And we were able to provide shelter to those that 104 04/08/03 - WHOLE needed it.
How much of the cost is covered by the state currently, say, in this year's budget?
About 30 percent. Now, the reductions in the state budget as they've currently been passed is about $4-and-a-half million.
Out of what amount that had been budgeted last year by the state?
I'm going to ask Rick Schaeffer, the Administrative Services Director, to give you greater detail on that.
Good afternoon. I'm Rick Schaeffer. I'm the Director of Administration for OESS. Councilman Cohen, in Fiscal Year '03, we have two main state grants for homeless services. One is a Homeless Assistance Program. That grant is approximately $7.9 million in this fiscal year. And the Human Service Development Fund, the HSDF Grant, is approximately $4 million. So the total this year is about $12 million.
How is that impacted by the proposed Rendell budget? 105 04/08/03 - WHOLE
As it stands now, the HSDF grant, which is this year about $4 million, would be eliminated. And there is a proposed 5 percent reduction in the HAP grant, so that would be about a 4 or $500,000 cut.
And your interpretation is that that will cause a reduction of 900 beds out of how many that are presently there?
I think for this coming year, Councilman, we had budgeted around 2,200 -- I'm sorry. 2,300. We'll have to move some money around. But strictly if you looked at the bed cost and how that would be impacted by a $4-and-a-half million cut, we would lose 900 beds.
It just seems disproportionate to the loss. It's serious, I admit that it, but it would not seem to me to impact that much if the state share of the cost is only 30 percent.
Well, part of it has to do with how the money can be spent and what funding 106 04/08/03 - WHOLE sources it's coming from. Admittedly, we would have to move money around because we could not absorb the loss of 900 beds. I can't imagine that would happen. But when we responded to the state as to what the impact would be, that was our position, that the impact would be the loss of up to 900 shelter beds.
Now, what has the Governor done with respect to that portion of the state budget? Has he approved that?
That portion of the state budget has been enacted. It was part of the original budget proposed by the Governor. It entailed about a $100 million in cuts for Philadelphia. The homeless services are just one of the many areas that are substantially impacted. What the Administration is involved with now is lobbying hard, trying to restore the cuts, and we're also working to prioritize where we would actually take cuts if that actually comes to pass. We're taking a hard look at our priorities and working to get some of the money back.
But the Bill has actually been enacted? 107 04/08/03 - WHOLE
It's gone through the Governor's office, in other words?
No. The Governor line item vetoed certain elements of it, but the entire $100 million cut is in place. The Administration circulated information about a little over a month ago that detailed all the cuts across government. But this is just one of those things that we're having to react to. It's before this whole budget process is complete. The Administration will likely have to return to City Council with an amended Five-Year Plan that reflects the loss of $100 million in FY '04, and it's going to be recurring. So we're talking about a $500 million loss over the course of the Five-Year Plan. So this is something that's devastating.
It's gone through the Governor's office and the Governor did not veto his original proposals for these cuts?
The Governor has signed the 108 04/08/03 - WHOLE budget. He did do a line item veto to take out all education funding, so there are clearly discussions that still have to go on at the state level before the budget is enacted. It's going to have to be amended. There's going to be a different budget at the end of the process. So there's still a chance that some of this stuff will get put back into the budget. And we're engaged, as Ms. Wilkerson said, in lobbying in Harrisburg to make sure that when things are put back in, some of these crucial services are funded.
But we can't understate how serious it is for a lot of different parts of government. OESS is hit particularly hard, but after school programming is at risk, drug and alcohol, as a lot of people know, has probably taken one of the most substantial hits at a time when we're seeing a run-up in the demand for additional drug and alcohol services. This is a huge issue. I'll recirculate the memo that details exactly where in government we're looking at these cuts, but they will be substantial, even under the best case scenario.
It's difficult to 109 04/08/03 - WHOLE comment on that because it's unbelievable that the Governor, who has been the Mayor of Philadelphia, would have been as naive as apparently he was, and that's putting it in the best light, when he proposed a budget that everybody familiar with politics knows the republican party would love. And the more he condemned it as he presented it, the more likely the republicans were going to view it as a very desirable budget, and they did that. I don't know whether he can work his way out of this or not. We will see whether the Rendell magic of the past works currently. I admit it creates all kinds of difficult problems. But then we were in difficult problems before that too, so it's a little hard to evaluate.
Well, that's right. Our situation was challenging. We've suffered the run-ups in costs. We had a fire fighters' award that adds $30 million to the Five-Year Plan. It wasn't there before. And when you add up all these additional costs or lost revenues, the City's situation is extraordinarily challenging.
All right. I guess at this time there isn't enough hard news from the 110 04/08/03 - WHOLE state to know what's going to be the final story. But I'm afraid that most of it has already been written. There may be minor changes, but it might get worse also, as well as having the possibility of getting better.
I don't want to predict what will happen up in Harrisburg. What we do know, though, is that that's a situation that's not likely to be resolved before we have to have a Five-Year Plan in place and approved by PICA.
Tell me about this Five-Year Plan. You know, we passed it in very routine fashion. Nobody takes it seriously at all that I find in City Council. Maybe some members do, but I haven't seen any indication of it. It's used as a whipping board against Council. Later we're told, well, you passed that in Five-Year Plan so that you can't change a budget. I just find it as a useful whipping lash that the Administration uses against Council because you can move things in the Five-Year Plan that nobody is paying too much attention to, and then whip it out later and say, yeah, but we proposed it and you approved it in the Five-Year Plan. 111 04/08/03 - WHOLE Suppose we don't do a Five-Year Plan, what happens?
The Five-Year Plan is a requirement of the PICA Act. And if we didn't have a plan, then the PICA Board could declare that we're in what's called a variance and they could stop the flow of all state funds to us. So they have some pretty dramatic tools to use against us.
There are appointments by the Governor and by the majority and minority leader of each house, the State Senate and the House of Representatives.
Have they ever issued any kind of a statement attacking Philadelphia for its failure to do what it has to do under the 112 04/08/03 - WHOLE Five-Year Plan?
There was a time early in PICA's existence where they declared the City to be in variance because the City was projecting a deficit. And the first step in that process is reporting monthly. And so the City began reporting monthly and showed how it would get out of variance, so PICA didn't have to resort to any of the harsher tools that it can use.
It seems to me often the Executive Office -- and this is not limited to the current Administration. It's true of every Administration since we've had the PICA law and probably before that. It's very common for a Mayor, whoever the Mayor may be, to work together with the state to try to clip Council's wings, if Council is doing something that the Mayor doesn't like. I think that's the reason we're in such trouble now. We taught the state how to carry out its role as a Super City Council. And so the state finally learned and began acting on its own, sometime when the Executive Office didn't want them to act. So I just think the City ought to stop using the state body as a method of controlling City Council. 113 04/08/03 - WHOLE They ought to try to do it within the framework of the City. You were saying we cannot afford to lose 900 beds, right?
And I agree with that completely. With respect to testimony of Mr. Reed and Mr. McDavis for a moment. Were Mr. Reed and Mr. McDavis here on their own, or were they here because you were presenting both sides? How did they happen to be at the witness table during the Administration presentation? I'm just wondering. I was about to congratulate you on a fine display of government activity to have both sides presented, to have criticism of your Administration at the same time as you're seeking support.
If I had thought to do that, we would have invited them up. Maybe we'll do that next year.
I was trying to figure it out. I thought their testimony was very helpful and useful in giving all of us a picture of what was happening. 114 04/08/03 - WHOLE Are there differences between the labor organization and your administration that have not been resolved? Is that why they were here?
There are certainly ongoing discussions with the union, especially with respect to the Housing Support Center, but also with respect to the intake process and the family shelter services. These are discussions that have gone on for some time and I suspect will take a while longer to get resolved. There is a need. A number of areas are in transition, are changing. We're moving much faster towards trying to reduce the average length of stay, for example, in shelter and move people into permanent housing faster with supportive services. We had a significant amount of success with that last year, thanks to our colleagues in the Philadelphia Housing Authority. We need to continue that. All those changes do create some degree of tension and some degree of uncertainty and has to be talked through and worked out. Ultimately we are most concerned about the quality of service we can provide to our clients. There continues to be room for improvement in that area in a number of ways. We're not going 115 04/08/03 - WHOLE to sugarcoat that. We want to get it out. We want to have those discussions. We want to work through those issues and we want to make that happen. We will continue to do everything we can to effect those changes along the way. Now, having said that, I'm not naive enough to think that it will happen fast enough, because clearly it has not happened fast enough already. But we have made some very significant strides in a number of areas that we try to present to Council in our original testimony and we will continue down that path.
Councilman Cohen, I don't mean to cut you short, but I understand Ms. Wilkerson is really pressured for time. She has another commitment that's very important.
And I know that you wanted her here, not for this issue, but for another issue. So if you could please conclude your questioning with Mr. Hess, we could then go on to the other issue of concern to you. 116 04/08/03 - WHOLE
Thank you. I'll be pleased to do that. Mr. Hess, I was very much impressed by Mr. McDavis and Mr. Reed because they humanized the issue for you. I think it often officialdom tends to get lost in the work that's to be done and loses human touch. So I was very grateful for the testimony given by both and I would urge that you continue your discussions with them until you've reached joint agreement. I think their contributions and those that they represent will be very helpful. I hope the conclusions that are reached satisfy everyone. Thank you. Now, may I go on with the other question to Ms. Wilkerson?
Just a moment, sir. I believe Councilwoman Blackwell has a very brief statement she wants to make.
Thank you. Certainly we understand that we have -- that these cuts could mean 130,000 meals for homeless people. And we are absolutely concerned about how they affect us because, frankly, 2,300 beds a night isn't enough. When it's very cold we need at least 2,600 117 04/08/03 - WHOLE a day. So 2,300 doesn't do it in the bad weather, and I say that to the Chair and to my colleague who asked how many people are being covered per day. And I know in the summer months we like to make lighter, about 2,200, which isn't enough, because the weather changes. You have some people who go in, but all of who work with homeless people know you still have homeless people in the summer, even though it's warmer. We still have more people than we do beds, even though we cut back in the summer, which I disagree with. But having said that, we absolutely look forward to the Chief of Staff scheduling this meeting so that we can meet and talk about the issues with the gentlemen present who have been involved with this issue and who have been talking about it for six months. It is of the utmost importance that we resolve these areas. And I believe, organizationally speaking, that a lot of the stuff we can do with a sit-down meeting if we're committed to making it happen. Thank you, Madam President.
Mr. Hess, thank you very much. 118 04/08/03 - WHOLE Councilman Cohen.
Ms. Wilkerson, beginning several years ago during hearings held by the Law and Government Committee on health insurance provided to City employees, but basically to Council staff and Council employees, we discovered, at least it appears we discovered, that there are certain people left uncovered. We learned, for example, that an employee of long standing, if that employee continues to work instead of retiring, if that employees dies while on the job, his family would be left or her family might be left without any coverage at all. Whereas had the employee taken the course of retirement and died at the same time on retirement, the proposed benefits for the retired employee would continue for the length of time that the City guarantees it for the long-term employee, a five year period. And even that, the employee might be permitted to pay the cost of insurance to maintain it. When the question was first raised innocently by myself, because the thought suddenly occurred to me, there was a sudden stop by the then Personnel Director. There was a pause. And then I 119 04/08/03 - WHOLE said, what's the problem? She said she had to discuss it. And the result of it was that we found that apparently in the health insurance field, and it applies to the City of Philadelphia, that if you're an employee, you're covered by employee benefits. If you're a retiree, you're covered by the way they look at retirees. But if you're sort of in between, an employee eligible for retirement, but not retired and you die, you don't get the benefits. Your spouse and your children don't get the benefits that they would get, had you retired. I don't know why that exists, but City Council got that answer from the Personnel people. For two years now, maybe three years we've been trying to rectify that and the Administration has done nothing about it. And it seems to me that Council is going have to deal in some fashion with that question, at least with respect to Council. Now, is there any activity that you know that's ongoing that may deal with it? We're told that it doesn't even involve a matter of cost. That the great likelihood is, that built into the present payments by the City, are payments that would cover this and that there might not be any cost. Or if 120 04/08/03 - WHOLE there's a cost involved in covering the situation that's uncovered, the cost would be very minimal. But the City Administration takes the position that it is the client of Independence Blue Cross and it has forbidden Independence Blue Cross to even discuss the issue with City Council or anyone else. So we're out in a vacuum. I think that budget time is the time when we've got to make some kind of arrangements to see that this situation doesn't continue. So I raise with you, is there anything ongoing now? Because, if not, I think the budget process is a process by which Council, at least with respect to Council and its employees, may want to deal with it. Because we don't see why employees, long-term employees, should be hurt by their continuing to work, instead of being given the equal rights of a retiree.
Councilman, I believe last year we, in fact, prepared and delivered to your office proposed legislation that would accomplish what it is that you're discussing now.
I don't believe it would have at all. 121 04/08/03 - WHOLE
I don't believe any legislation is needed. I believe all that is needed is a telephone call from the Mayor or from you to Independence Blue Cross and say, please deal with this question. Tell us what, if any, cost. We understand the cost would be nothing or very minimal. But tell us what it is, so we know what it is and then we can inform Council. But right now the question is shrouded in mystery. Independence Blue Cross insurance company has informed Council that the cost would be very, very minimal and, actually, in the opinion of Independent, it would be no cost.
As I recall last year it was something that we were advised needed legislation, and that's why it was prepared and delivered to your office. I will, before the week is up, pull that file back out and take a look at it. I think you're right. If it's limited to City Council, it is a fairly limited amount that it would cost. But I'll resurrect the record on that. Because I know that there were conservations that 122 04/08/03 - WHOLE legislation was drafted.
Can we have an answer in a short period of time? Because I don't see how we can complete work on the budget unless we take care of this issue.
Yes, I can do that quickly. Because I know we did take a look at it last year.
Right. And it seems to me the Administrative Board certainly doesn't need legislation to pick up a telephone and say to Independence Blue Cross, we want this group covered. We believe the cost has been paid, but if there's any additional cost, would you make a study and tell us what it would be. That's what we're asking for. I can't see any reason why any legislation is needed at all.
I will pull that record out and get back to you within the next day or two.
You are welcome. Next is MBEC. 123 04/08/03 - WHOLE We have MBEC. Mr. Roundtree is here. Mr. Roundtree, identify yourself for the record. Then we'll ask Mr. Cohen if he has a question for you.
Thank you. Good afternoon, Council people. My name is James Roundtree and I'm the Director of the Minority Business Enterprise Council.
Thank you. Councilman Cohen, did you have a question? Was this your request to have MBEC here?
Yes, it was. Since Mr. Roundtree testified, Council has enacted the Bill that's received a lot of public support throughout the City. And I understand that what may be needed in order to effectuate the purposes of the Act is some form of a disparity study. Are you at all familiar with that, Mr. Roundtree?
There was one made, I believe, about four or five years ago that might be outdated? 124 04/08/03 - WHOLE
Do we have any indication of what a current disparity study would show?
No, we don't have an indication. But what will be needed is to have the data that we have in the current study refreshed. It needs to be updated to the current status from year 1998 to 2003.
Do you know if the company which performed that study before, is it still in operation?
Yes, it is. We have them kind of on hold until we can identify specifically what it is we will need.
Well, I want to urge upon you and others involved in this, I think the matter ought to be dealt with in the budget. I think money ought to be provided for such a study. And I would very much appreciate, if between you and Mr. Macklin and Mr. Jones, you could prepare material that would give us an understanding of what the cost might be so that we could include it in the budget. I would hate to see things held up for a 125 04/08/03 - WHOLE year on the ground that there isn't sufficient funds in the '04 Budget. Because it's very important that this study be made quickly so that we're ready to implement the law right away. It's really awful that during a time of the City's largest construction boom in history in the largest Public Works projects, the two stadiums particularly, and other construction work, that the extent of minority and diverse employment suffered by to percent at a time when a 15 to 20 12 increase would have been too small an increase. We 13 were entitled to expect much more. So we want to 14 make sure you're all set to go. 15 So I wanted to put officially on the 16 record a request that the three men -- you could use 17 others that know of this situation -- but the three 18 people that testified before us, I think it's 19 important that you present to us, I would say within 20 the next week, your best recommendation with respect to what the cost of the up-to-date disparity study would be so we can take care of it in the budget.
Excuse me, Councilman. Who are the three members? I know Mr. Macklin, but what Mr. Jones? 126 04/08/03 - WHOLE
They were here. I believe they were all at one time testifying.
I'm unaware of any testimony by Mr. Macklin, but if you could provide it for me.
All right. The reason I asked for you to come is you're the Council representative and I wanted to make sure that it was in your hands.
I have been given the commitment by the Administration that once we get the information about the new law and all of these amendments, that we would press forward with getting some additional information.
How many commitments -- I won't ask that you answer -- but how many commitments have you been given by the Administration that later turned out to be empty promises? And on budget matters there's so many demands, situations and such, the fiscal situation may be so difficult and problematic, I would not 127 04/08/03 - WHOLE want to depend on promises.
Just for the record, I am James Roundtree. I am the Director of the Minority Business Enterprise Council. I report to the current Administration.
So my answer would be, they are as supportive as I would need them to be.
All right. But I'm suggesting to you that it would be wise for you to talk to whomever you have to talk to. And will you get back to us and tell us you're going to furnish a figure or not?
Councilman Nutter, you had a question for Mr. Roundtree? 128 04/08/03 - WHOLE
Yes. It's very quick. Thank you, Madam Chair. Mr. Roundtree, I received the document that you sent over in response to some questions that were raised when you were here, I believe, for budget hearing time. I'd like to have an opportunity to possibly talk with you further. There were some components of the document that I could not completely figure out. And it may be a formatting issue or I just might need some additional information to understand all the elements of the report. So if I could have an opportunity to talk with you about that and better understand it, I'd appreciate it.
Would you like for someone from my office to call and set up an appointment with you, Councilman?
That probably would be the best. Again, the report had a lot of information in it. But I just want to make sure it's responding to the questions that we raised.
You don't want to 129 04/08/03 - WHOLE meet after 3:00.
You're welcome. Police Department. Thank you. Identify yourselves for the record again, if you would.
Yes. Good afternoon. Tom Nestell, Deputy Police Commissioner. And with me is Lieutenant Harry Giordano, the manager of our Records and Identification Division.
Thank you. Councilman Cohen, I believe you had a question for the Police?
Yes. I'm very concerned about the length of time it takes for a person who is arrested to appear before the Bail Commissioner. The average time seems to run between and 36 hours, sometimes a 22 bit shorter, sometimes a bit longer. And I'm 23 wondering if there's anything that can be done to 24 speed that process. I'm told that in other cities the time is much shorter. They basically go through 130 04/08/03 - WHOLE the same process. I would like to find out what specifically has to be done before the case of any arrest is ready to be dealt with by a Bail Commissioner to determine the situation of bail and when the next hearing, if any, should be held or whether it should be a discharge.
Councilman, in answer to your question, the average time for the prisoner to be processed from the time the prisoner is arrested to the time the person is either released or sent to the prison is hours. 13 In reference to the comment that many 14 other jurisdictions do it faster, all I can tell you 15 is we have jurisdictions from all over, including 16 Washington, D.C., who came in to look at ours and 17 were very impressed by the process that we have. 18 When you look at other jurisdictions, you have to be very careful in looking at the number of prisoners they process. Example, in D.C., we process two-and-a-half times more prisoners than they process every week. We also positively identify every prisoner that we have. There are other jurisdictions that do not do that. They will have different -- what here is a misdemeanor is a summary 131 04/08/03 - WHOLE offense in Washington, D.C. Washington, D.C. processes that summary offense, but has no positive identification on who that individual was. We can tell you who was in our shop.
Well, could you, without us taking the rest of the day, could you give me some documentation in support of your view? I've never, ever had in my personal practice as a lawyer or in my work on behalf of constituents ever had anybody released in a short a time as hours. 12 I would welcome that. If you could show me some 13 documentation. The police stations tell everybody, 14 when they tell the families, they tell the families 15 that it's going to be 24 to 36 hours. And almost 16 always I find it, except as I said before, very 17 rarely it may be a little less or a little more 18 sometimes. And I can I understand those human variations. But it would seem to me that the question of processing more ought not to cause delay. We may need more personnel to handle it. How long does it take on this positive identification? Is there a special technique for that?
First of all, an 132 04/08/03 - WHOLE individual is arrested on the street. They are transported to the Investigative Division that conducts their investigation. After they are fingerprinted and photographed through electronic means and it's transmitted electronically to our records in Identification Division, there is also simultaneous notification to the DA and the courts for the ROR interviews done at that time. Then after that is completed and the positive identification has come back, we know either that that individual has been arrested before, who the individual is, or if the individual has never been through our system. Then the charges are forwarded to the District Attorney Charging Unit, who either approves or disapproves of the charges. Then after that is done, then they are arraigned over the closed circuit television. We have eight remote facilities so that we're not in a position where we have to constantly transport the individual. The individual stays at the one location and is arraigned right at that location over the CC TV. 133 04/08/03 - WHOLE
Would it be possible to break down what you said in the form of an outline indicating the length of time on average each process requires, and furnish that to the President of City Council who will distribute it to Councilmembers, and perhaps we can deal with that further? The reason I raise the question is, it just seems wrong for someone who may later turn out to be fully innocent, to have to spend a day or a day and a half incarcerated. I'm not too concerned about the person who's later held, but for a person who may have been either wrongly arrested because of insufficient evidence or because of a mistake or for whatever reason might take place, and is found to be free, it seems to me perhaps all of us working together could develop methods for speeding up the time so that people who are proved ultimately to be innocent don't have to spend a day in jail or a day and a half in jail. The more innocent they are, the less pleasant those circumstances are. So if you could, sir, work that out for the Police Department, I would be very appreciative of receiving a response through the President of 134 04/08/03 - WHOLE City Council. Do you think that might be done in the course of the next week?
And if you need help in any way, we would like to hear about it.
You may have a shortage of personnel or there may be something else.
We do not need help. Just so you know, Councilman, in the past few years there have been tremendous strides in the processing of the prisoners. There is a coordinating committee with Judge Presenza as the president of that committee that meets every Thursday morning. And Lieutenant Giordano can tell you a little bit about the activities of that committee. But in that committee are the courts, the Police Department, the District Attorney, the voluntary defender. So everyone is represented there. Through automation and coordination there had been tremendous strides.
Well, that sound very 135 04/08/03 - WHOLE promising. I did not know of its existence. Has there been any publication by them? I would like to receive any information about that. That would be helpful. Perhaps a short outline of what they do could be sent to me through the President of City Council with respect to the functioning of that committee.
You are welcome. And certainly I can attest to the fact that that time has been greatly reduced, given our constituency and how many people call us. Thank you very much. Prisons. Thank you for your patience. Please identify yourself for the record and then we will ask Councilman Cohen for his questions.
Good afternoon, Madam Chair. My name is Michael Resnick. I'm general counsel to the Philadelphia Prison System. With me is Deputy Commissioner Alan Appel and Ed Szymanski from our Fiscal Office. 136 04/08/03 - WHOLE
Thank you very much. Councilman Cohen, you had a question?
Yes. To the gentleman identifying himself as general counsel, are you a member of the City Solicitor's Office, or are you a private counsel hired by the prison system to serve as its general counsel?
I'm not private counsel, Councilman. I am a City employee. I served in the City Solicitor's Office for 11 years. Now, I am employed in the Philadelphia Prison System as the System's attorney.
Are you currently an employee of the City Solicitor's Office?
I am not currently an employee of the City Solicitor's Office. I am currently an employee of the Philadelphia Prison System.
My relation to the City Solicitor's Office is that for 11 years I was a City Solicitor, and I report on matters of a legal nature 137 04/08/03 - WHOLE to the City Solicitor and his designees. And, of course, he assigns people to assist me in my function, in my role.
I'm a little surprised that the -- because that's information about the City Solicitor's Office I did not know. I thought everybody was assigned to a City agency, as the prison system is, that every attorney worked for the City Solicitor's Office and may be assigned to a department, zoning boards, prisons conceivably, the Health Department, but that they were employees of City Solicitor's Office. You're saying you are not an employee of the City Solicitor's Office?
I was released from the City Solicitor's Office to go to the Philadelphia Prison System.
All right. Well, I've learned something new, and after the long service I have, it's always good to find out something new. I would like to raise questions because 138 04/08/03 - WHOLE the Law and Government Committee has been holding hearings on the question of prisoner experimentation that occurred in the beginning of the late '40s running through maybe the early '70s. I'm wondering if the Prison Department has any information that would enable us to determine who were prisoners in that period of time, what their conditions were. I'm not anticipating you are going to be able to give me information today. But I did want to speak with you to see whether things like what records exist, the names, what information may exist about their personal circumstances, their finances, their medical records and anything about the prisoner records, anything about the experimentation. Are there any records? I would like to know whether they exist. And I would request of the gentleman present a report to be given to the President of City Council informing us what exists in that area. That was the reason for my request.
Councilman, I can tell you this, that the prisons currently has a record retention policy of seven years. The experiments of which you speech were the subject of litigation. I was in the City Solicitor's Office when that 139 04/08/03 - WHOLE litigation was filed. And in anticipation of defending the City in that litigation, the Solicitor's Office made a request to the prisons for all documents in which you're speaking of, in anticipation of probably answering discovery requests or in assisting us in defending the City. The response from the prison system at the time was that there were no documents. We just don't have records from 30 to 50 years ago on inmates who were in the system.
I don't believe that the documents from the time period of 50 to 30 years, back from 1949, I believe, to 1974 when the experiments ended, I don't believe there are any documents in existence, not only from those experiments, but any documents in existence from the prison system on inmates who are housed in our system from that time period. If the Councilman likes, I could have something in writing delivered to the President of City Council to be disseminated amongst your colleagues.
There is a department 140 04/08/03 - WHOLE of City government known as the Archives, which I understand is a place to which frequently records are consigned by the City. Have you checked with them?
I personally have not. But I can find out what areas the prison system at the time when the litigation came and when the Solicitor's Office made the request, I can check from the prisons' Administration where they looked and what place they inquired to see where the records were, or if there were records. And I can put that in the report.
Well, it certainly would seem to me if there's a seven year policy it ought to be reconsidered in light of what has developed historically. We're told that the City of Philadelphia -- and I don't want to mention it too frequently because I'm very embarrassed -- the City of Philadelphia may not know who the prisoners were. And if you're getting sued by people or claims are being filed against you, you feel pretty badly if you're not even able to say for sure that this was or was not a person that was in the system at the 141 04/08/03 - WHOLE time. So it would seem to me to be a very shortsighted policy and I would like to know what the policy was and how it got formulated.
I can tell you, Councilman, I've been representing the prison system for years while I was in the City Solicitor's 8 Office and I never had a problem getting records to 9 prove that an individual -- when an individual filed 10 a claim, I never had a problem getting the records 11 from the prison system that said, yes, this person was an inmate. This is when they were incarcerated. Here is their legal file and their social services file. I'm talking about cases that have been filed in the last 11 years. You are discussing inmates that may have been in our custody 60 years ago. That may be more problematic. I don't believe those records are in existence.
Well, it might be 60, but it could be as few as 35 years.
It may be as few as 35, and 35 is less than 60, but 35 is also a considerable length of time, and I don't believe that we would have records regarding what inmates were in our custody during that period of time. But 142 04/08/03 - WHOLE again, Councilman, I can look into the matter and I can respond to you.
Well, I would suggest you study it because there are people who claimed that they were in jail, and I believe that in a lawsuit a judge might be compelled to find that they were in jail, if that were a factor. If the City says, we don't know, and they assert that have been, it leaves the City defenseless, it would seem to me. And so I think that that policy -- and if you are general counsel, based on that experience I think a recommendation from you as to a change of policy might be useful and important.
Two things, Councilman. The lawsuit to which you're referring, I believe, has been dismissed by the District Court.
It may be. But the lawsuit to which you're referring was dismissed by the District Court, and that dismissal was upheld by the Third Circuit.
But that has nothing to do with the morale or the ethics. It seems to me 143 04/08/03 - WHOLE that Philadelphia is in a totally indefensible position and looks very foolish before the public to have to say, we don't know whether these people were prisoners or not.
Secondly, Councilman, I believe that the Records Commissioner, Commissioner Decker, has been on the facility site and has been working with our Administration to develop or to refine and enhance our records retention policy.
Certainly. Commissioner Decker, the Records Commissioner, has been on site at our facility up at the Northeast and she's been meeting with members of our Administration, going through our records retention policy and helping us update our records retention policy or modify it where it needs to be modified.
What's that got to do with anything we're talking about?
Just to inform the Councilman that we're taking that situation and that issue seriously and we're working on our records retention policy, making sure that it's consistent, 144 04/08/03 - WHOLE it's applied consistently across the system.
Well, is part of that study the question of how long we should maintain records?
Well, then I would very much appreciate if you could send through the President of City Council a report on what Commissioner Decker is doing, its participation by prison officials, what its goal is, so we can evaluate it.
Yes, it might be helpful. I can't tell based on the information we have today. But I would also urge -- whether or not there are any people around who are known to be alive, who were there during that time -- because there are at least 250 people alive now who claim they were prisoners, who claim that they were severely impacted by participating in these experiments. And I'm very fearful that the City of Philadelphia is badly disadvantaged in dealing with it. It's not just a matter of law at all. When President Clinton in 1995 issued an 145 04/08/03 - WHOLE apology because of the behavior of Tuskegee Institute in a similar situation, it wasn't because he was legally compelled. It was because government morality and ethics required, in his judgment, that kind of policy. It may well be that the same is required in this instance. It may not be a matter at all of law. This Council has nothing to do with the lawsuits. We worry about lawsuits against the City, but if you're not in the Law Department, then I don't want to belabor you with questions about why do we spend about $50 million a year in paying judgments for damages caused by wrong policies or policies found to be wrong by a judge or a jury.
I wouldn't even want to take a stab at that question, Councilman.
You wouldn't want to answer that. No. Because it's a very heavy burden for the City to bear fiscally. Thank you. Could we get whatever you are able to furnish within the next week to the President?
I don't see a problem with that. But Councilman should know that the Prison Commissioner is away on vacation. He'll return Thursday. And I'm sure he would like to review 146 04/08/03 - WHOLE anything that comes out to City Council, so we may be delayed a couple of days in getting to you just because his return.
Councilman, paper records go back probably to maybe the '50s, I believe, and we have computerized records at the prisons.
I believe to the '50s. I'd have to check with our personnel department and make sure that they've been retained.
Could you check with them and give us a report on that included?
Would you tell them that for all practical purposes today's date marks the official request for that material? I just want them to know that they're not to dispose of it. I think as you try to recapture evidence 147 04/08/03 - WHOLE it's difficult to find -- we may want to get a list of everybody who worked in all parts of the prison system as far back as it goes to see whether or not certain evidence can be reconstructed. Because we understand there was fairly widespread knowledge of these experiments that took place, and there may be many living eyewitnesses that may be yet alive and available. Because a large number of people claim that they were prisoners at the time. Some of them seem to be in their late 50s, early 60s. And with the lifespan increasing, there may be a large number of people. So if you would make sure that there is no destruction of any records, if you could get us what seems to be available at this point just by date as to how far it goes, we'll be appreciative. And that may begin to get the information needed. It's not a matter of law, as far as City Council. We're interested in the policy questions and in making certain, according to a Resolution 21 passed by City Council, that no such activity ever occurs again. We're trying to find out how it occurred between the City, University of Pennsylvania, chemical companies and personnel staff. We don't know to what extent it involved 148 04/08/03 - WHOLE prison staff against University of Pennsylvania staff. If it did not involve prison staff, we'll be delighted to exonerate the City of Philadelphia entirely from that. We're also interested in any financial records involving payments. Did the prisons get any payments? There were allegations of payments having been made. Did they go to the City and not the prison? That kind of thing. All right, sir. Thank you very much. Thank you, Madam Chair.
You're welcome. Next is the Streets Department. Thank you, gentlemen.
Thank you. Good afternoon, Commissioner. Would you identify yourself for our record?
Good afternoon. My name is Clarena Tolson, Streets Department.
Thank you. Councilman Cohen, do you have questions for the Streets Commissioner? Please begin.
I'm asking about what's the condition of Ogontz Avenue repaving 149 04/08/03 - WHOLE project, which we understand is supposed to take place later this month or early next month?
Yes, sir, we are. The project is expected to begin in May. We've given notice to the residents and business people along that corridor that the bid was opened on March 18th for a cost of $6.4 million.
Could you speak directly into the microphone, Commissioner?
That has not been finalized as yet. We have some flexibility, but it has not been finalized. It will be based upon some of the constraints that the contractor may have.
It has not finalized as yet, which end. We're reviewing potential 150 04/08/03 - WHOLE constraints that the contractor may have in order to determine which end is the best end to begin on.
We won't object if he starts at both ends simultaneously.
But your telling them and local officials telling them may be two different things. They'll hold us to account. They cannot hold you to account in the same way they can hold us to account.
So you think it would 151 04/08/03 - WHOLE be safe for us?
Is it a company that meets our tests on diversity of workers? Are they the prime contractor, or are they going to do the whole thing themselves?
And are we policing their employment of personnel for the subcontractors? 152 04/08/03 - WHOLE
Well, I think it would be great if you could get into it even before they hire. Let them know that the City is very sensitive on this issue and we expect them to meet the City's goals.
It's better to do it in advance than to face criticism later. I think it's a good opportunity in these relatively smaller jobs to get a good record started. I understand like in providing employment, the number of small contractors jobs add up to more than the big ones ultimately in a City the size of Philadelphia. Well, thanks. You've given us a very hopeful report. We thank you for it. Thank you. I have no further questions. It looks like we're on board. Maybe it will be a quiet, peaceful summer full of congratulations for people on Ogontz Avenue.
Thank you very much, Councilman. Does anyone have any other questions? 153 04/08/03 - WHOLE (No response.)
Then we thank you all. This Committee will stand in recess until Monday, April 14th, at 2:00 p.m. Thank you. (Council adjourned at 4:40 p.m.) - - - 154 C E R T I F I C A T I O N I HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing proceedings of the Council of the City of Philadelphia of April 8, 2003, were reported fully and accurately by me, and that this is a correct transcript of the same. RE: COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE ___________________________ Lisa C. Bradley, RPR and Notary Public