I believe he's since explained to Councilman Rizzo that it was over -- well, I'll let you...
Okay, tell me a little bit more about that, I'm sorry.
Well, I don't really know that I have anything additional to add to that, sir.
Mr. Seaton, what I'm trying to explain to you is, you were in the middle of a conversation that I didn't have the benefit of hearing the beginning of; all I heard you talking 68 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 about was that the field had been damaged. I'm trying to understand the nature of the damage, who created the damage and what the damage was. What were you talking about?
Councilman, have you had the opportunity to spend the evening at a conversion process?
I heard you ask my colleague that question. I've done everything I can in my public life not to spend the night at Veterans Stadium, so the answer is no. 13
Okay. I'd love to answer your question but I'm not real sure what exactly the question is.
Did you say the field had been damaged equipment outside of the normal-use process?
I believe that what I said was is that based on the unique environment of Vets Stadium because of the convertibility and because the bleachers retract and move across the field and there's a tremendous amount of moving pieces, the dugout and the pitcher mound, that you have lots of vehicular traffic -- trucks and forklifts and 69 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 buggies and etc. -- that drive on the turf.
In most playing fields, you will not see a pickup truck or bleachers or fork trucks moving huge racks of very heavy iron and steel driving on your playing field.
Okay, I understand that. Now, you put the turf in -- this is the new turf, right? You put the NeXturf in?
Okay. Did you know that that's what we did when you made the installation or when you made the pitch for the business?
Councilman, I believe you were not here for the portion of my openings remarks where I indicated that due to sensitivities, we were not going to talk about the conversion process and any issues related to that.
I didn't so much ask you about the conversion process; I asked you, when you bid for the job, did you know what was involved or what was going to happen to the turf in the course of the period of time that it was in place 70 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 and that certain activities would take place? I'm just asking you, were you aware much that
I understood the question and, again, in light of the sensitivities of this issue, we're not going to get into that here today.
Okay. Mr. Seaton, you said that the field was damaged, in response to Councilman Rizzo's question, that there had been damage to the field by all of this equipment going over it?
I believe he just clarified his remarks and what he said -- what he just said two minutes ago is his testimony, sir.
Well, I think I'd like to hear from Mr. Seaton; is that possible?
Councilman, I believe that's the second or third time that I've tried to answer the question for you. Maybe if you can rephrase the question.
So your testimony is as a part of our process, we damage the field; is that what you're saying?
Which field are you referring to, sir? 71 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533
I believe the Councilmember was referring to the previous field.
Okay, well then, let's talk about that field. Who damaged that field?
I mean, that's why I really started out by saying, Have you ever spent the night to watch the environment? And it's very hard for me to explain to you, you know, without maybe, you know, being there once and understanding the conversion process.
Okay, all right. Then let me try to better understand your response to Councilwoman Reynolds Brown's question with regard 72 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 to the differing price levels of the varying fields. I think there was some discussion at the last hearing, and apparently there was more at this hearing about Wissahickon, I think some work you did in Florida maybe for the Phillies, and then the price here in Philadelphia. Is it 5, and 13; are 8 those the numbers per square foot?
You don't know what you charged those various people per square foot, including us, for your product?
Do you have a member of your team here who can answer the question accurately?
Well, who would know the answer to the question? You're the president of the company -- I'm sorry, did I take that down 73 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 correctly?
That's the second time or perhaps the third that you've asked that, Councilman.
Okay. Mr. Griffth, you've probably been through this a couple times in your legal experience. We ask a lot of questions here, as we are public officials. What you get in court is, you get to say "asked and answered." You don't get that here. So as many times as I ask the question, I will expect an answer. And when I get an answer that makes some sense, then we'll move on, okay?
Okay. So if I ask the 74 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 president of a company how much his product costs, I would reasonably expect an answer, 'cause he's the president. And I think that's a reasonable question.
Fair enough. I believe -- and perhaps you weren't here for this part of the testimony when he explained the different factors that go into the pricing of the product.
I think it was size and what else you have to do; were those some of factors? Did I catch that part correct?
Okay. So did I also understand you to say you didn't know how much square footage there was at these varying fields?
I do not know exactly sitting here. Wissahickon I don't believe was an issue at the previous hearing.
Was there more turf at Jack Russell Stadium than at the Vet or less?
Okay. Is it a fair 75 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 assessment in business that the more you buy of something, the cheaper the price is?
You're asking him for an opinion, and we're not here to offer opinions, Councilman. We'll be glad to testify about the facts but --
He can give an opinion, he can give his business expertise. You're in business, right? Generally if someone buys more of a product from you, you give them a cheaper price; is that true?
That's kind of the fundamentals of supply and demand, I think it's Economics 101.
Maybe what we could do is read the record back. I mean, I think I gave 15, 20 minutes of testimony on the price difference earlier and, you know, if you want to go through that again, I'm here for you. That's the --
I don't want to burden the record if you gave the answer 15, 20 minutes ago, you had a good 15, 20 minutes of testimony. I 76 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 guess, again, being the reasonable person that I am is that you might remember. I mean, the answers don't change, do they?
Okay, you're saying that there was six, maybe seven times less turf at -- what is it, Jack Russell Stadium, is that what it's called?
All right, maybe more. Was the price per square foot less at Russell or more than Vets Stadium
I thought you wanted my 77 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 answer.
I do, but I have another question. When did you find out about this hearing?
and what was your anticipation upon coming to the hearing? because I'm sure you had a good conversation with Mr. Griffith about today's hearing, right?
Not necessarily. I came here voluntarily to represent our product and our company and what I think is an outstanding installation that has played very well. Best, you know, fielding season for the Phillies, they came in third; the Eagles are number one in the division; we haven't had any major injuries; the field's working great; attendance is up; commissions are up. 78 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 I really came to try to answer questions.
I actually live here, I know most of those things, okay? So in anticipation of today's hearing, did you think we might ask you some questions about the company, about prices, about things that you've done in other places; was that your anticipation or were you --
Okay, well, you wouldn't know what I was thinking, but there was a resolution that was introduced and someone must have invited you and I'm sure, knowing Councilwoman Reynolds Brown, that she would have --
And I guess if we read the resolution, we'd know that it didn't even mention prices.
If you read the resolution, it certainly didn't mention prices.
Actually, the resolution 25 mentioned nothing specific for me, sir. You didn't 79 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 ask me --
I think it talked about this situation though. I think it talked about this situation. Did you have a representative at the last hearing?
I think we had some discussion about price. I think, as a matter of fact, I asked -- there was a gentleman sitting there at the table, I think he works for the Phillies, and I think I specifically asked him questions about the stadium in Florida versus Veterans Stadium. Do you know who that gentleman was? Who was it?
It could have been, yeah. I think he works for the Phillies, right?
He's the manager or something. That was the first time I met him, at the last hearing.
All right, okay. So 80 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 we did actually talk about price and size and amount at the last hearing, and you said you were here, right?
Maybe if you could drill down to the question, I'd be very happy to try to answer it for you.
Okay. Well, I'd like to talk about why there was such a seemingly -- for the layperson, a seemingly drastic price difference between the Jack Russell Stadium and the Phillies stadium, or the Phillies and Eagles stadium or the Veterans Stadium is actually our stadium.
Mr. Seaton has testified to the best of his ability and given lengthy testimony concerning the pricing of his product.
Okay, that's your answer and you're going to stick to that?
For the benefit of my colleague, please state again those factors that arrive you to the decision on why square footage in one location should be one price 81 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 and square footage in another location should be another. Cite those factors again for us for the record.
Councilwoman, Mr. Seaton has already given extensive testimony about this. I notice we've already gone over our allotted time of minutes. I'm going to allow him to answer the 9 question again subject to the caution that, you 10 know, it's not a memory test, and he may not be able 11 to recite it exactly as before. 12
Size, wages, weather, 14 substrate, taxes, hotel, air fare, freight, 15 surcharge on freight, union dues and fees, 16 complexity of the installation, auxillary work, 17 additional end zones, additional base inserts, 18 warning tracks, goal post foundations, testing the 19 system, being onsite, removing snow all winter, 20 doing prototyping, doing mock fields, doing demonstrations. You know, basically, the Vet facility probably encompassed the most complexed set of conditions to meet the opening baseball day of the contracts in the past. 82 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 I mean, I would be quite happy, I think, to answer the question. I mean, it is, you know -- why don't you ask me how much money we made on the project. That's what you'd like to know, isn't it?
Well, I hadn't really gotten around to that but, you know, quite frankly, if you're offering it up, I'm sure you're going to tell me some sad tale about how your kids don't have shoes or nobody was able to have dinner the week after you did the Vets Stadium installation or something like that. So, I mean, I certainly wouldn't in a public forum want to embarrass you. But why don't I just kind of stick to the questions that I'd like to ask you, and I appreciate your offer of a question, but the one thing I have been able to figure out in my time here is how to ask the questions I want to ask, how to ask the questions I want to ask. I got that part down. Let me ask you this question: What's the experience with this particular product in the Northeast with our little unique four seasons of weather, the NeXturf product?
I'm sorry, Councilman, what -- 83 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533
What's experience of the product in the Northeast region of the United States of America -- cold weather, rain, snow and the like? What's the history of the product in that environment?
It's been in the market for approximately about two years, two and a half years.
Okay. Has it snowed in any of the environment in that two-year period where it's currently installed?
Okay, so you might have some experience in -- are they in the Northeast?
Okay, that's pretty north, not too east. So tell me about the experience of the product in cold-weather climates. How does it 84 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 respond to rain, snow? I don't know, how do they get the snow off the field in those places; do they have tractors on them or -- I mean, do they have people with brooms and shovels, or just how does it react and respond in that environment?
You can use a rubber-tipped snow plow and balloon tire vehicle to power the snow plow to remove the snow.
How is the traction on the field after it's experienced either snow or ice? What's your experience?
How much ice? It's pretty ambiguous. If the field's covered with ice, I would imagine --
A six-inch snowstorm, you take it all off, it froze overnight, you've got a game at 1 o'clock the next day; what's the experience?
That the fields in Ohio and Michigan where they've had light snow have not experienced any problems. 85 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533
Okay, all right. So you have had some experience. I mean, your initial response was, It's a new product, we don't know.
Well, I think it was because of the vagueness of the question, sir.
Okay, I'll try to be more specific. And what's your experience with the product here in Philadelphia with regard to rain? Has it rained on the product while the Eagles have played on it?
Is your question limited to after the events of August 13th?
Well, I think August 13th was the first time the Eagles actually played a game on it, isn't it? Or tried to play a game on it or scheduled to play a game on it? Yeah, post August 13th.
Okay. Do you have any information to report to us with regard to how the surface reacted to rain? 86 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533
Yeah. I believe I testified to that earlier, sir, but I think the game in reference was --
What I testified to was the Dallas Cowboy game against the Eagles in which it rained 23, hours before the game and rained all 12 through the game, and the game played extremely 13 well. 14 So I would use that as probably a good 15 example that the field plays very well wet. 16
Thank you, 24 Councilman Nutter. I appreciate your contribution.
Thank you. 87 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533
Thank you, gentlemen from Southwest Recreational Industries, Inc. We will now invite up the following: SprinTurf Inc., Bruce Cheskin, Vice President of Construction. Join us, Mr. Robert Rooney, Director of Marketing. FieldTurf, Inc., John Gilman, CEO. And Hummer Turfgrass Systems Inc., Web Cook, Vice President of Sales and Marketing. (Witnesses come forward.)
Welcome, gentlemen. Please state your full names for the record, and if you have any written formal testimony, you're welcome to share it with us at this time. If not, you -- whatever you're prepared to do.
My name is Bruce Cheskin, I'm with SprinTurf, and what I would like to don't have is the unfairness of --
I'd like to speak to the unfairness of the procedure to select a product. We 88 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 are a local company, and we did not have a fair opportunity to bid on this job. We were never allowed to come in, although many requests were made to Ewing Cole to come in and give a presentation. We were never afforded that opportunity. We were never told of any specifics about the Vet's surface, which we would need to know, such as the bleachers or the substrate. We have several different products that are available. The product you have there is a rubber infill, which is about two inches. I have here a product that is not a rubber infill. And we have at least six other products in our product line, which, given the opportunity, we would have shown at a presentation. We also have recently, during the time that the process was taking place for selection, put a 50,000 square foot field on the roof of Friends Select School, which is less than three blocks from here. So right in the center of Philadelphia, we put a field with a rubber infill. It shows our capability of doing a tough job in a tough environment. We are local. I grew up in Philadelphia 89 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 and I'm a seasoned ticket-holder of the Eagles. Essentially that's my testimony. It was a very unfair practice, and I believe that Ewing Cole did not serve the City well and provide the procurement office the necessary information to make a sole-source bid. Thank you for your time.
I need to make sure I heard you correctly. You're saying that in the documentation you received from Ewing Cole, there was nothing specific about the specifications that would be considered and used really as a measure for the ultimate award. Is that what I'm hearing you say?
Correct. All we were asked to do is send in our product information. Our main product is SprinTurf, which is the product in the box on your table. We were never afforded the opportunity to know what the City was looking for and what the ramifications of the conversions and such were. Had we been afforded the opportunity, we would have been able to provide a product that would be an inch and a half product that would work for 90 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 conversions. Being a local company, we would have been here all of the time.
We have never done any conversions; however, we have done baseball and football fields, and our employees are capable of doing what needs to be done along with the City helpers. As I understand the conversions, many of the City helpers are involved in the conversion.
You heard the testimony of the City Controller's Office
And you are able to speak about the day that the game was cancelled because of the problems associated with the flooding and -- could you comment on what you believe occurred that day from your professional -- if you have the professional expertise at least to comment for the record on what you believe occurred there that day. 91 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533
I don't believe that it would be wise for me to do that at this time. I was on the field at one point and was escorted off the field when I tried to offer my advice to the stadium management.
Please, any other formal testimony. Please state your name for the record.
Madam Chairman, my name is David Fineman. I'm an attorney here in the City of Philadelphia. And thank you for holding these hearings. I'm here to represent John Gilman from FieldTurf, and Mr. Gilman is going to testify and answer any questions that you may have. We have and we would like to give to you copies of what are pictures of the installations of FieldTurf throughout the United States actually, and we've installed fields that have been convertible -- not necessarily baseball or football, but soccer all over the world. We also have the diagrams just on our 2000-2001 fields, about fields. We have the 25 fields and you'll hear from Mr. Gilman that Seattle 92 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 place on the Seattle team, that down in Tampa Bay, the Tampa Bay team that I've been there to watch a couple baseball games -- actually, there's some representatives of the Phillies who actually came down. And I would say that the other thing that I think -- we have no intention of criticizing somebody else's product. On the other hand, if you have any questions of us -- Mr. Gilman's been in the business for some time -- we'll be more than happy to answer them for you. We would -- I think Mr. Gilman would like to comment since I did see Mr. Seaton come up and kind of turn that tray upside down and kind of say how difficult this conversion this process was, and I got a little chuckle about it in the back since I understand how we do do the conversion, and Mr. Gilman can explain it. Nor do we have any intention of going into the history of what happened on August 13th. I would say that when we were asked to bid on this product, on this installation, we indicated that we would warn and that there would be a warning put up by Lloyds of London -- and I think Mr. Gilman 93 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 will say that -- that if there had been a problem and we were to be sued, the City of Philadelphia would know that there was a deep pocket to pay for any damages. I mean, let's be realistic here; nobody wants to talk about this lawsuit. I happen to be a lawyer. I mean, there might be a lawsuit. Mr. Applebaum was quoted in the newspapers throughout the United States, some of which I have here, in which he indicates that there might be a lawsuit. The only question is, who's going to bring it and when is going to happen? And if there is a lawsuit, as a lifelong of the City of Philadelphia, proud -- a person who's a products of the public schools in Philadelphia, I'd like to know who's going to pay, and is there somebody there that's going to pay at the end of the day? That's the only question that I have to ask. I don't even ask that as a question that I necessarily need an answer for, but it is something that the City officials have brought up and something which obviously the people from NeXturf brought up. 94 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 But I'll let Mr. Gilman testify about the product, and we thank you for the opportunity to come here. He's come here from Montreal, Canada, to be with you. And obviously if there's any questions that you feel you'd like the ask, we're here to answer them for you.
Thank you, Mr. Fineman. Mr. Gilman, welcome.
We too were not given all of the information to properly bid or offer our product by Ewing Cole and the consultants. I've sat here through now two hearings and I've heard a lot of comments about how the process went on. I would like to state that only in these hearings did I hear the fact that a product that didn't meet a one-and-a-half-inch height for the bleachers was the first time that I heard it here. In the previous hearing, a gentleman from Ewing Cole was asked, What was the height of 95 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 FieldTurf? " And he was asked the follow-up question, I believe, by Councilor Rizzo, Where did you get that information? " How ridiculous, how unbelievably ridiculous. Because I think, Councilmembers, if you take a look at our product that Mr. Seaton almost tipped over, you will note that the grass, the artificial grass, is two and a half inches high, only that. The infill that makes up the actual playing surface, which we say simulates earth, the infill normally is about an inch and three quarters from the bottom of the carpet. Therefore, we would have been one quarter of an inch outside this new comment of an inch and a half being the requirement for the bleachers. That being the case, all of the other testimony aside about the need for conversion and rolling out a carpet and unrolling a carpet and all of the rest of it, quite frankly, all we would have had to do is remove a quarter inch of infill, and it would have met the inch-and-a-half requirement. It wouldn't have required cutouts, it wouldn't have required any rolling out of turf all 96 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 over the place. It would merely meant, at the clay areas around the bases, the removal of the clay and the installation of FieldTurf at the clay bases, as simple as that. And it's quite astounding that I heard about that here for the first time. Some other comments. Mr. Nutter, Councilor Nutter got to the nub of the question as to in general business, the more you buy, the cheaper the price. Interesting comment about -- and I hope I pronounce it correctly with all of these Philadelphians around me -- Wissahickon. It's noted in a newspaper article, and that's for the record, how the number was derived. It's noted in the newspaper record that the superintendent of the school district is quoted saying how much he paid for a full-size football field, and that's how the $8 figure is. That's a full-size NeXturf field. Ruben Amaro stated at the other hearing that he paid $100,000 for basically an infield in Florida. And I'd like to state for the record, and for Mr. Seaton, who's not aware of it, that it is not in Jack Russell Stadium; it's outside Jack Russell Stadium. It's just an infill field where 97 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 the infielders take some grounders and probably fungo hitting. It is not an installation inside of a stadium. And that number of $100,000 that Ruben Amaro testified that it was installed for, in our meetings -- and there are many, many people who sat in on that meeting -- we were asked -- FieldTurf was asked, Would you put in an infield outside of Jack Russell Stadium for free so that if we chose FieldTurf, we'd be able to have our infielders get used to the surface before opening game on April 6th? It was one of the requirements of us getting the job. We were not asked -- we were -- we never under any thought believed that we would be paid for it because it was asked specifically on the record, Would we put it in for free? We agreed to put it in for free. So let's -- talking about fairness in the process, one company got paid for it, another company was asked to put it in for free. In terms of cost for the actual project, in terms of a mockup conversion, we were also told that we would have to conduct, I believe, three mockups for the City to conclude that they could do 98 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 the conversions properly.
We agreed to do that, we agreed to do that for free. Mr. Seaton is saying that was a consideration in his price on how he got to $13. We were also not required to make a prototype or do anything of that nature, and we weren't asked to do anything because FieldTurf is FieldTurf. It's been on the market now for five, six years. We started off small, like the fellows from SprinTurf, and we've grown, and we're putting in fields and major installations and winning most of the large contracts. There are contracts that are being given out by other professional teams and FieldTurf is winning those contracts, not NeXturf, not Astroturf. Not any of the other products that the Astroturf companies make. It's because FieldTurf has become the leader in the industry. In terms of warranty and in terms of financial strength, when we got the same short shrift as SprinTurf and Hummer Turf from the people at Ewing Cole, FieldTurf has the strongest balance sheet in the marketplace. FieldTurf offered, as David Fineman stated, a warranty backed by Lloyds of 99 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 London. We also said that we would house people right near the stadium -- it's in one of my documents given to the City -- to conduct and do all of the conversions, all of the mockups, all of the conversions and everything, we would keep people here throughout season, using the general available staff that I believe the stadium uses to do those type of things, but the key elements of it, we would do that portion of the conversions. And I just -- I just am kind of shocked at some of things I've heard over the last couple of hearings, and sometimes you win some and sometimes you lose some, but in a case like this, it's really a doggone shame as to what happened. And that's basically my statement.
Thank you very, very much, Mr. Gilman. And we have another testifier? (Witnesses come forward.)
Please state your name for the record and who you represent.
Yes, ma'am. My name is Web Cook. I'm vice president of sales and marketing for 100 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 Hummer Turfgrass Systems, out of Lancaster, Pennsylvania. I don't have a prepared statement but had submitted an outline of events earlier to the Council -- I'm not sure whether you have reviewed it. In essence, we were probably more involved from a company's standpoint than anybody else in the procurement process, so we worked at length with Ewing Cole. It actually was not our synthetic product they considered; it was our natural-grass, it's a product called "the grass tile system," and it's a modular natural-grass system. So if any of the Councilmembers have questions about the process itself, I'll be happy to answer them, 'cause we worked pretty closely with Ewing Cole during the fall, and we do have some comments about, you know, the process itself. Well, I would say this to you: The process was very informal. I mean, all of the companies that you've heard from today deal with architects, deal with specifications, deal with the, you know, analytical process of selecting a surface. And our feeling on this was that this process was very informal. 101 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 We did work with -- we did work with the architects. We came down and made a presentation, brought some of the tiles and the equipment down to Veterans Stadium, put on a demonstration, put on a full-blown demonstration of the system up at Hershey Park Stadium where we have 'em installed. I spent the night at Veterans Stadium, unfortunately, but I did, on a Sunday evening to watch the conversion. We also sat down with representatives from the architects, representatives from the City, and we went to great lengths to put together a full-conversion schedule if they were to use the grass tile system. In the very end, we never saw any type of specification, what they were looking for. I mean, the fact of the matter is, we read about, you know, the award of the project to Southwest in the paper. So, you know, in the end, the informality of it all probably bothered us a little bit. You know, sometimes that's the way processes work. But I'm happy to answer any questions that you may have regarding it.
You claim that this 102 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 significant transaction that was accelerated to just months was an informal process as far as you're concerned?
Well, I would say informal. As these gentlemen have testified, we never saw a specification as to what the project called for. Usually in these types of projects, you'll be provided with some type of specification as to the system they're looking for, what's required, you know what's required of change-outs, etc.
At the moment, did you think that every one, all of the vendors who had a shot at this were being treated similarly?
I really wasn't aware of it. I mean, I can't say that I didn't know how FieldTurf and SprinTurf -- I didn't know the extent to which they were involved, so I can't comment on that.
Wouldn't you think the natural -- you've done this before, and working without a specification is quite difficult. Did you ever ask for a specification? I can't imagine you not.
Oh, we asked for specifications. I mean, to go back to your previous 103 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 question, if you talk about all of the different companies, I mean, you know, the definition of "due diligence," if that's what it is, is to investigate all of the possible solutions to the problem that exists. In that sense, you would have thought that the architects, engineers would have looked at every possible solution.
When the Procurement Department spoke with you, did you ever ask for a specification so you would be prepared when an opportunity possibly to bid on this project so you could come up with numbers? I can't imagine -- we buy a police car and we have four pages of specifications from what kind of bulbs are in the stoplights.
I can't imagine a project like this and no specification?
Well, this is probably a good example of what I referred to as the informality of the project. We never met with Procurement Office; we met with always were representatives of Ewing Cole and then actually the operations people at Veterans Stadium along with representatives of the 104 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 Eagles and the Phillies.
The commissioner said that this was his project, that he -- you heard him say that, where he didn't do a letter to the file 6 because he personally handled this. Did you ever have a conversation with the Procurement Commissioner?
No, and that's my understanding that -- I've seen the report from Ewing Cole. I mean, as I understand it, you know, the investigation that they performed, you know, they completed that investigation and made the recommendation, and they acted on that.
Rizzo can I switch to making this comment to any other members of this panel. Have you also experienced a similar situation and have any of you had any personal contact with the Procurement Commissioner in reference to this project?
It's a no from FieldTurf. 105 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533