And next you're going to tell me that they have an isochamber in Georgia that simulates 27-degree weather in Philadelphia in December. What do you mean they conducted in their facility in Georgia? What was the temperature when they conducted it in Georgia?
It's a wet and dry traction test. There are no specific tests for any product you will see for snow and ice condition, even if it's natural grass or --
No, I think if you want to test a product for snow and ice conditions, you do it in a place that has snow and ice. What was the temperature in the room when 155 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 they conducted the test?
Oh, come on, Mr. Pradeep. Look, I had biology and I had chemistry in high school and college. What is an ambient temperature. Is that Celsius or is that Farenheit? That's all I know. What was the temperature in the room 13 Farenheit when they conducted those tests? And when were they conducted?
I would not know the temperature, but I would say it should be 0around 70 degrees.
Okay. Last I checked, the freezing temperature of water was 32 degrees Fahrenheit; is that correct? Right?
Okay. I mean, I want to make sure they hadn't changed it. 156 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 Now, if you're trying to test a substance or a surface for similar conditions to where it is actually going to be installed, in your engineering opinion -- because I know that you're an expert and you've been qualified that way at the last hearing -- is it a fair test of a product that is going to be installed in a Northeast environment to test it at 70 degrees in a warehouse in Georgia or out in the open in a like or similar place where the temperature and the average daily temperature by the time you get to, with the exception of this winter, is probably somewhere between 30 and 45 degrees?
I mean, how do you know how a product's going to react in a warehouse in Georgia when people are going to be playing on it in Philadelphia? How do you know?
Anytime that water melts is a bad condition. Anytime ice melts, it's a bad-condition test and it doesn't really matter where it's conducted.
Are you telling me that there is no difference in the reaction of this product to people running on it, balls bouncing 157 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 around, cleats -- depending on which ones you use, 'cause apparently it took them a long time to figure out which cleats to use -- and you're telling me that if you run on that surface in a warehouse in Georgia at an ambient temperature of 70 degrees, that there is no difference between that person running on that and the same person running on it in late December in Philadelphia when it's 42 degrees outside and it rained the night before and there was ice on that particular field? Are you telling me that you can make the same runs, the same cuts, and do everything the same in Philadelphia that you can do in a warehouse in Georgia at 70 degrees? Is that your testimony?
Councilman, I think getting we're getting confused between what are the available standard tests and --
Mr. Fox, let me make sure we're real clear. I am not confused at all. You may be confused, but I'm not confused. 158 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533
There are available standard tests for all products, including the competing products we heard from today, such as wet traction and dry traction, which go to the performance of the surface. To my knowledge, there is no ice and snow test and, therefore, unless you would expect the consultant to go out and hire a stadium in a blizzard or in an ice storm, there's no way he could perform that. He does is what is reasonable. He looks at the performance test, the bounce test, the slide test --
-- all the things that everybody has for their product. And you're asking him a question of whether this stadium surface is going to perform. I think the only way he can look at that is to look at the performance of artificial turf at the Vets Stadium since it's been there, which has been a long time, in all kinds of weather. 159 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533
But I don't think you can ask him about tests that no one performs.
Well, Mr. Fox, excuse me, I appreciate your response. You will recall that this question started out -- the original question was, were there any tests? Mr. Pradeep went to the big book and told me about tests.
Oh, I'm sorry, I apologize. Mr. Patel respond to do a question telling me about tests that had been conducted. I then asked more questions about those tests, but let's move on. Lastly, let me say about the tests. All I would say, with every respect to you and a little bit of humor, I am quite glad that the folks at Consumer Reports do their tests a little different than what you're laying out for us here today, 160 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 'cause they do actually do them in the conditions in which they expect people to buy the product, not in a warehouse in Georgia at 70 degrees under those conditions. And we can move on Mr. McCabe, I want to just cut right to the chase with you. COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: Did you say "Commissioner McCabe"?
No, Mr. McCabe, my good friend Mr. McCabe. What do we know about finances of the company involved in the installation? And in the event of any suit or judgment or anything like that, what's their capacity or ability to pay? And have they held the City harmless in the contract with regard to any claims related to this installation?
Okay. Mr. Applebaum, do you know? COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: All I can comment is I know that there was a performance bond. I'm not exactly sure of the amount without searching it. There was a performance bond and -- 161 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533
The performance bond is for the actual installation, though, isn't it? COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: The performance bond is for the performance of the whole project, the product and installation.
Okay. COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: Also, they signed the normal terms and conditions of the City contract, which has all of the indemnifications and etc. and etc. Also, there's an additional clause in the contract that indicates within the first year for any reason whatsoever if City of Philadelphia elects to have them remove that product, they have to remove it and replace it at no additional cost.
Really? That's interesting. Have you decided to exercise that option? COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: We have no reason to exercise that option. The turf has been very successful. (Inaudible.)
I've heard that a couple times. I mean, is the field now being 162 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 credited with the performance of the Phillies? COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: Absolutely not, it's the players.
And when the rooster does his thing. COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: Or is it Donovan.
Their performance is much better when they're away than at home. How many times was the field converted prior to -- what was that, August 13th? COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: Prior to August the 13th, I think there was one done in July, just one in July
Okay. COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: That was the test, I believe.
Let's go back to the cost issue. Now, does Southwest have enough insurance to cover any potential losses that might come out of this situation? I know there's been a potential of lawsuits. Are they holding us harmless in this? COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: All I'll mention is that they signed the City's standard terms and 163 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 conditions. Under the standard terms and conditions, we have full indemnification and we are held harmless.
Lastly, it's unfortunate, but I don't think that he was enjoying my company too much. Tell me about the finances of the company. How big are they, what are their annual revenues? That kind of stuff. COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: I can get you a copy of their financial statement. And it was a strong company and I can get you the latest figures on it, I can send it to you.
I want to thank Councilman Rizzo for simply raising this issue and putting it on the radar screen. And we want to say thank you to all of those who participated in the proceedings. Have confidence in knowing that a formal report will be issued with recommendations to the sponsor on what we need to do differently in this city with regard to sole-source contracts. With that, this concludes the testimony on Resolution No. 010533 and these hearings are 164 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 recessed to the call of the Chair. Thank you and have a good evening. COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: Thank you. (Proceedings end at 6:21.) - - - 165 CERTIFICATE I HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing proceedings of the Council of the City of Philadelphia's meeting of the Council Committee on Parks, Recreation and Cultural Affairs of Tuesday, December 18, 2001, are contained fully and accurately in the stenographic notes taken by me upon, and that this is a true and correct transcript of same. RE: Resolution No.010533 _______________________________, Josephine Cardillo Registered Professional Reporter and Notary Public (The foregoing certification of this transcript does not apply to any reproduction of the same by any means, unless under the direct control and/or supervision of the certifying reporter.)