COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA COMMITTEE ON STREETS AND SERVICES - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Wednesday, November 30, 2005 2:20 p.m. - - - PRESENT: COUNCILMAN FRANK DiCICCO, CHAIRMAN COUNCILMAN JUAN RAMOS COUNCILMAN MICHAEL A. NUTTER COUNCILMAN DARRELL L. CLARKE BILLS 050859, 050860, 051072, 051073, 051098, 050857, 050861, 050862, 050863 050864, 050949 and 050952 - - - V A R A L L O Incorporated Litigation Support Services Eleven Penn Center 1835 Market Street, Suite 600 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 215.561.2220 215.567.2670 2
Good afternoon, everyone. This is the public hearing on the Committee of Streets and Services. My name is Frank DiCicco. I'm the Chair of the Committee. To my immediate right is Councilman Juan Ramos, who is the Vice-Chair of the Committee. Councilman Nutter and Councilman Darrell Clarke are here as well. They're members of the Committee. We do have a quorum. What we're going to do is take several of the bills that we believe are the least controversial to get those out of the way and then deal with the two bills that will have more of the testimony and question and answers, which is the, for lack of a better way, the bill that talks about the elimination of the handicap parking spaces for the motor scooters and the regulation for the tour operators. We'll take those at the end. The other stuff should move rather quickly. I would ask the Clerk to read 3 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. the title of the first bill.
Bill No. 050861, an ordinance amending Section 5 of an ordinance, Bill No. 050468, approved June 16, 2005, entitled, "An ordinance 7 granting permission to Marie Bontiago, owner of Tabula Rasa Cafe, tenant of the property located at 944 North 2nd Street, Philadelphia, to operate and maintain an open air sidewalk cafe on the northwest corner of North 2nd Street and Laurel Street, under certain terms and conditions," by extending the period for compliance with the authorization conditions therein.
Good afternoon, Chairman and members of the Committee. My name is William Mautz and I'm a Construction Engineer with the Streets Department. I'm here to offer the following testimony for Bill No. 050861. This bill will amend Section 5 4 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. of an ordinance, Bill No. 050468, approved June 16, 2005, by extending the period for compliance with the authorization conditions stated herein. The time period for compliance with Section 5 of the ordinance will be extended by 240 days until February 10, 2006. The Streets Department has no 11 objections to the passage of the bill.
Any questions for this witness from the Committee? (No response.)
Is there anyone else here who wishes to testify for or against the bill? (No response.)
Seeing none, the Clerk will read the title of the next bill.
Bill No. 050859, an ordinance establishing a no truck parking and tow away zone regulation for an area 5 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. bounded by and within Vine Street to Haverford Avenue, 54th Street to 60th Street.
Good. Please identify yourself for the record and proceed with your testimony.
My name is Kristin Del Rossi and I am the District 1 Traffic Engineer for the Streets Department. Mr. Chairman and members of the Committee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today. I am here to today to offer testimony on Bill No. 20 050859, an ordinance prohibiting tractor-trailer parking for an area bounded by and within Vine Street to Haverford Avenue, 54th Street to 60th Street. The actual text of the posting will be "no tractor-trailer or truck 6 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. trailer parking any time," with a "tow away zone" rider. The Streets Department has no 5 objections to this bill. We have prepared work orders, and they will be completed in about six weeks. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today.
Thank you. Any questions for this witness from the Committee? (No response.)
Anyone else here who wishes to testify on or against this bill? (No response.)
Seeing none, I'll ask the Clerk to read the title of the next bill a little bit slower than you did the previous bill.
Bill No. 050857, an ordinance amending Section 2 of an ordinance, Bill No. 020429, approved November 13, 2002, entitled "An ordinance 7 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. authorizing the revision of lines and grades on a portion of City Plan No. 258 by striking from the City Plan and vacating Brill Street from Torresdale Avenue to Harbison Avenue, by striking from the City Plan and vacating a certain triangular section of Harbison Avenue and by reserving and placing on the City Plan a right-of-way for drainage purposes, water main purposes and gas main purposes, under certain terms and conditions."
Thank you. Good afternoon. Please identify yourself for the record and proceed with your testimony.
Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and members of the Committee. My name is Frank Morelli, Survey Bureau Manager of the Department of Streets, and the Department of Streets would like to offer the following testimony on Bill No. 050857. This is not an administrative 8 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. ordinance, but an ordinance requested by Mr. Charles Garuffie, Paintarama, 5223 Torresdale Avenue, Philadelphia, PA 19124. The purpose of this ordinance is to extend the time period to strike and vacate Brill Street from Torresdale Avenue to Harbison Avenue and to remove unneeded land from the Streets Department's infrastructure and responsibility. The date in Section 2 of this ordinance needs to be amended to November 13, 2007. This ordinance is supported by the Department of Streets and is recommended to your Committee for favorable action.
Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and members of the Streets and Services Committee. My name is Martin Soffer. I'm the Director of the Development, Planning and Zoning 9 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. Division, and I am here today to testify on behalf of the City Planning Commission. This bill authorizes the striking of unneeded streets and placement of a right-of-way for drainage and utility purposes. The purpose of this ordinance is to allow for the adjacent property owner, Paintarama, to construct a parking lot adjacent to his existing business. The Planning Commission approved this action on July 17, 2002. Therefore, the Planning Commission recommends that Bill No. 050857 be approved. Thank you.
Thank you. Any questions for these witnesses? (No response.)
Anyone else here who wishes to testify for or against the bill? 10 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. (No response.)
Seeing none, I'll ask the Clerk to read the title of the next bill.
Bill No. 050949, an ordinance amending Section 2 of an ordinance, Bill No. 040505, approved June 21, 2004, entitled "An ordinance 10 authorizing the striking from City Plan Nos. 270 and 258 of Sanger Street from Tacony Street to the westerly Pierhead Line of the Delaware River, under certain terms and conditions," by extending the time for compliance with conditions stated therein.
Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and members of the Committee. My name is Frank Morelli, Survey Bureau Manager of the Department of Streets, and the Department of Streets would like to offer the following testimony on Bill No. 050949. This is not an administrative ordinance, but an ordinance requested by 11 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. Mr. Mark Hankin, Legend Properties, 625 Ridge Pike, Suite A-107, Conshohocken, PA 19428. The purpose of this ordinance 6 is to extend the time period to remove Sanger Street from the Frankford Arsenal Business Center to facilitate economic expansion. This ordinance is supported by the Department of Streets and is recommended to your Committee for favorable action.
Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and members of the Streets and Services Committee. My name is Martin Soffer, Director of the Development, Planning and Zoning Division, and I am here today to testify on behalf of the City Planning Commission. The purpose of this ordinance 23 is to strike from the City Plan an unneeded paper street to allow for the construction of a retail shopping center 12 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. in the Arsenal Business Center. The Planning Commission has reviewed and approved this action on June 15, 2004. Therefore, the Planning Commission recommends that Bill No. 7 050949 be approved. Thank you.
Thank you. Any questions for these witnesses from the Committee? (No response.)
Anyone else here who wishes to testify for or against the bill? (No response.)
Seeing none, I will ask the Clerk to read the title of the next bill.
Bill No. 050952, an ordinance authorizing and directing the revision of lines and grades on a portion of City Plan No. 271 by placing on the City Plan Florist Street from a point on 2nd Street approximately 131 feet north 13 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. of the north side of Race Street to a point on 3rd Street approximately 157 feet north of the north side of Race Street, under certain terms and conditions, including the dedication to the City, free and clear of all encumbrances, of the bed of Florist Street.
Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and members of the Committee. My name is Frank Morelli, Survey Bureau Manager of the Department of Streets, and the Department of Streets would like to offer the following testimony on Bill No. 050952. This is not an administrative ordinance, but an ordinance requested by Mr. Daniel Reisman, Eckert Seamans Cherin and Mellott, LLC, 1515 Market Street, Ninth Floor, Philadelphia, PA 19102, who represents Second and Race Street LP. The purpose of this ordinance 24 is to place Florist Street on the City Plan to facilitate the development of a 14 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. new condominium complex. This ordinance needs to be amended to include Section 2(c) limiting the dedication to 24.50 feet above the present grade of the bed of Florist Street. This ordinance is supported by the Department of Streets and is recommended to your Committee for favorable action.
Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and members of the Streets and Services Committee. My name is Martin Soffer, Director of the Development, Planning and Zoning Division, and I'm here today to testify on behalf of the Planning Commission. The purpose of this ordinance 20 is to place on the City Plan the existing Florist Street. The staff of the Planning Commission has reviewed and tentatively approved this action. Therefore, the Planning Commission recommends that Bill 15 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. No. 050952 be approved as amended. Thank you.
Thank you. Any questions for these witnesses from the Committee? (No response.)
Anyone else here who wishes to testify for or against the bill? (No response.)
Seeing none, I will ask the Clerk to read the title of the next bill.
Bill No. 050860, an ordinance authorizing the revision of lines and grades on a portion of City Plan No. 299 by striking from the City Plan Domino Lane from Henry Avenue to Hagner Street, under certain terms and conditions.
Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and members of the Committee. My name is Frank Morelli, Survey Bureau Manager of the Department 16 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. of Streets, and the Department of Streets would like to offer the following testimony on Bill No. 050860. This is not an administrative ordinance, but an ordinance requested by Mr. Glen Falso, Wigard Development, Post Office Box 315, Plymouth Meeting, PA 19462. The purpose of this ordinance 11 is to strike Domino Lane from the City Plan to facilitate the development of a new housing development. This ordinance is supported by the Department of Streets and is recommended to your Committee for favorable action.
Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and members of the Streets and Services Committee. My name is Martin Soffer, Director of the Development, Planning and Zoning Division, and I'm here today to testify on behalf of the City Planning Commission. 17 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. This is an unneeded paper street that needs to be removed to allow for the construction of 35 new single-family homes on a new City street. The Planning Commission has reviewed and approved a subdivision plat on December 14, 2004. Therefore, the Planning Commission recommends that Bill 10 No. 050860 be approved. Thank you.
Thank you. Any questions for these witnesses from the Committee? (No response.)
Is there anyone here who wishes to testify for or against this bill? (No response.)
Seeing none, I will ask the Clerk to read the title of the next bill.
Bill No. 051098, an ordinance authorizing Temple University Health System, Incorporated and Hunting 18 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. Fox Associates, III, L.P. to construct and maintain a pedestrian bridge over and across Stokley Street, southeast of West Hunting Park Avenue, under certain terms and conditions.
Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and members of the Committee. My name is Frank Morelli, Survey Bureau Manager of the Department of Streets, and the Department of Streets would like to offer the following testimony on Bill No. 051098. This is not an administrative ordinance, but an ordinance requested by Mr. Joseph Callaghan, PE, 1655 Suburban Station Building, 1617 JFK Boulevard, Philadelphia, PA, on behalf of Temple University Health Systems. The purpose of this ordinance 21 is to construct a pedestrian bridge spanning across Stokley Street south of Hunting Park Avenue to connect three parking lots. This ordinance is supported by 19 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. the Department of Streets and is recommended to your Committee for favorable action.
Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and members of the Streets and Services Committee. My name is Martin Soffer. I'm Director of the Development, Planning and Zoning Division, and I am here today to testify on behalf of the City Planning Commission. The purpose of this ordinance 14 is to allow for the construction of a pedestrian bridge to connect three parking lots, which are currently on both sides of Stokley Street. The parking lots were built to service the Temple University Health Systems business offices located at the site. This was reviewed and tentatively approved at the Planning Commission staff meeting. Therefore, the Planning Commission recommends that Bill 25 No. 051098 be approved. 20 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. Thank you.
Thank you. Any questions for these witnesses from the Committee? (No response.)
Anyone else here who wishes to testify for or against this bill? (No response.)
Seeing none, thank you, gentlemen. Seeing none, I will ask the Clerk to read the title of the next bill.
Bill No. 050863, an ordinance amending Section 12-1117 of The Philadelphia Code, entitled "Physically Handicapped and Disabled or Severely Disabled Veteran Parking," by amending the provision relating to metered parking for physically handicapped persons and severely disabled veterans, and making such amendment contingent on the enactment of an ordinance relating to the establishment of parking for motor-driven 21 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. cycles and similar motor vehicles, all under certain terms and conditions; and Bill No. 050864, an ordinance 5 amending Title 12 of The Philadelphia Code, entitled "The Traffic Code," by providing for the establishment of parking for motor-driven cycles and similar motor vehicles; adding new definitions; providing for civil penalties for violations; making such amendments contingent upon the enactment of an ordinance relating to metered parking for physically handicapped persons; and making certain technical changes; all under certain terms and conditions.
Before you start, Mr. Dickson, is Mr. Mercuri in the audience? (No response.)
Vincenzo is not here. Is he coming in? You don't know, okay. Because I asked him to come to the witness table. 22 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. Thank you. Good afternoon, gentlemen. Mr. Dickson, are you going first?
Yes. Thank you, Mr. Dickson. Please identify yourself for the record and proceed with your testimony.
My name is Richard Dickson. I'm the Senior Director of Strategic Planning for the Philadelphia Parking Authority. About three years ago, Council enacted an ordinance which limited the privileges afforded to people with disabilities for parking at meters. As part of the negotiation to address the abuse of parking privileges for people with disabilities, it was agreed that one meter on every metered block would be reserved for the exclusive use of people with disabilities. Almost immediately after we 23 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. began installing those meters, we were contacted by Center City business people requesting that that policy be reevaluated because many of those spaces were empty for almost all day and they felt it was taking away valuable parking resources that could be used for their businesses. While no one wants to make it more difficult for people with disabilities to find places to park, we believe that the enactment of this ordinance will not negatively impact their ability to find parking spaces. At the request of the Chairman and some Center City business associations, the Authority conducted surveys of all those spaces in Center City in about the last three months. Our surveys found that between 40 and 60 percent of the spaces were vacant, depending on the area of Center City that was being surveyed. We don't believe that it's an appropriate use of the very 24 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. scarce parking resource to reserve spaces for people that do not need them and are not taking advantage of them. On the other side of the issue, there have been several requests to provide specially reserved spaces for motorcycles and motor scooters, particularly as the price of fuels increase, that people are opting to use more fuel-efficient vehicles. We support the ordinance which would replace up to half of the meters that are reserved for people with disabilities and replace them with multi spaces for motor scooters or motorcycles. The Authority would work with the disabled rights community, particularly the Mayor's Commission for People With Disabilities, to determine the most appropriate place to remove those reserved spaces so that we are avoiding places like hospitals and rehabilitation centers where those spaces are needed. So the Parking Authority 25 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. supports the enactment of these two ordinances.
Thank you, Mr. Dickson. As you know from the previous legislation of three years ago, this is a very sensitive issue and it's an important issue, because we certainly do not want to in any way restrict the ability of folks who are truly handicapped from coming into the City, using valuable parking spaces, but giving them obviously the opportunity to shop and take care of their personal needs, whether it's doctor visits or shopping in commercial corridors, what-have-you. And you probably recall there was some concern, rightfully so, from the folks from the ADA a few years ago when we crafted that bill that there would not be enough spaces left under the current legislation, which provides for, I think, one handicapped metered space on every unit block. Correct me if I'm wrong. 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC.
Every hundred block. And as your testimony points out and from personal observation -- because I think I was the person who actually made the call initially to ask the Authority to do a survey, because most of the time that I'm out, and I'm out often, I see either both of those spaces on a unit block that has two meters, one on either side of the street, either unoccupied or maybe one space being occupied and one empty or both being empty most of the day. And as you can testify to is, that within the first month of the enactment of the current legislation that no longer allowed for folks with handicapped placards or plates to park all day free at meters, there was a significant uptake, not only in revenue, because that was not the driving force, but as you testified, that the retailers 27 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. and the businesses seen also an increase in the volume of business, which is healthy for our economy, and with no real impediment, if that's a correct word to use, for folks who are truly handicapped and need to use on-street parking as an alternative to parking garages. I mean, it's kind of following up on your testimony. Is that a fair assessment of where we are today?
Yes. A few things happened after that ordinance was enacted. First, the people that were parking at parking meters with credentials for people with disabilities were generally parking at those meters all day, so instead of four or five people having the opportunity to have those parking spaces that were monopolized by one person. As a result of the ordinance, there were some blocks in Center City that were 40 percent occupied. Forty percent of the metered spaces were 28 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. occupied with people with plates or placards for people with disabilities. After the ordinance was enacted, that number went down to percent. 6 The other thing that happened 7 was, by reserving spaces exclusively for 8 people with disabilities, they did not 9 have to compete with everybody else to 10 find those spaces, and we also made time 11 limits on them so that even those spaces were required to turn over a certain number of times during the day, but we provided an extra hour accommodation for people that have mobility impairments. The third thing that happened was, lots of garages felt like they never need -- though they're required by law to set aside spaces for people with disabilities, they were never used, because no one would go park in a garage and pay when they could park free all day on the street. As a result of the change, those people that were there all day began to move into those garages so 29 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. that the garage owners began to ensure that those spaces were not occupied by non-credentialed people. So it actually increased parking opportunities for people with disabilities.
Do you happen to know what the percentage of the folks who are using garages with handicapped plates might be?
Because I don't see too many of those spaces being used. Without being sarcastic or insensitive, we all know that most of what was happening was abuse. I mean, my personal observations from walking down the streets was, we had people who were using handicapped placards on the rear-view mirror, but they had expired plates from two, three years old, but no 24 one bothered to look at the plate. When they saw the placard, they would just 30 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. walk by, the enforcement officers, and not ticket. And they were people from all over the region who were just using those as an excuse. Again, I just want to make sure for the folks who may not be familiar with what we did three years ago, that there was really no harm done, in my opinion, and I think your statistics support that as well.
I think not only was there no harm done, there was substantial benefit for people who were truly disabled who now have the opportunity to find a parking space that they never were able to find before.
They don't have to go looking and driving around the block for a space. Thank you. Councilman, do you have any questions or anything?
Mr. Wang, would you proceed with your testimony? 31 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC.
Yes. My name is Larry Wang, Philadelphia Scooters. Philadelphia Scooters and the scootering community are in favor of designated scooter parking. Motor scooters are a highly efficient means of transportation in and around Philadelphia. Scooters are smaller vehicles that take up less space on our City streets, occupy less parking space, reduce traffic congestion and can help alleviate the shortage of car parking spaces in Center City. DOT approved street-legal scooters can get upwards of 65 to 75 miles per gallon, with some models boasting over 100 miles per gallon. Modern technology such as fuel injection, catalytic converters and four-stroke engines make scooters quieter, cleaner burning and more fuel efficient. Motor scooters are gaining popularity, with a to 50 percent 25 increase in riders every year since 1999, 32 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. according to the Motorcycle Industry Council. More and more, Philadelphia Scooters are discovering the convenience and fun of riding motor scooters and exploring many other parts of our City. One of the major problems that Philadelphia Scooters now face is a lack of designated scooter parking spaces. It is not efficient for scooters to take up an entire car parking space where three or four or five can park in the same space designated for scooters. Scooters have also been knocked down in car sparking spaces and even moved to the sidewalk by frustrated car drivers looking for parking. Philadelphia has an opportunity to lead municipalities across America in encouraging scooters as a responsible and efficient means of transportation in the City. With designated scooter parking, Philadelphia will be among leading international cities, such as London, Rome and Toronto, who encourage use of 33 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. scooters to help conserve gas, reduce traffic gridlock and make our City more user-friendly for both residents and tourists alike. Thank you for your consideration.
Thank you. There is no other city in the country that provides for scooter parking?
No, but close. Philadelphia would definitely be in the forefront.
You and I have had some conversations about this issue. I purchased a scooter from you a couple of years ago. I no longer own that scooter, and I'll explain that in a minute why I no longer own it, and one of the reasons is because I really had a 34 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. difficult time finding a place to park. I actually used to take it to City Hall. In those days, I had a City vehicle, issued vehicle, which I no longer have, but I got ticketed because I parked on the apron of City Hall and, using the chain or the lock system, chained it alongside bicycles on a bicycle rack. The height of my scooter was lower than the bicycles. A little bit thicker maybe, but lower. I got a ticket because it is a motor vehicle. So I was getting discouraged because I just couldn't find a place to park, and I didn't want to park it on just any sidewalk and attach it to a light post, because that would have made front page, I'm sure, that the Councilman is parking a motor vehicle on a sidewalk. So that's one of the reasons why I gave up my scooter. So I don't want anyone to think that I'm doing this legislation to provide parking for me, because it was written up a time ago that 35 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. I owned the scooter. I no longer own a scooter. And we also talked about, I think, Seattle and New York City where there's been a dramatic increase in the number of scooters that are being used in those cities, but they don't provide any parking spaces, on-street parking, that you know of?
There are petitions going around in all the major cities, just because the number of people that use motor scooters in cities in particular are just growing and growing every year. So I think there is legislation in the works as well in many cities. As far as I know, I'm not sure if anybody has actually enacted it, but it's definitely a trend that we will see happening going forward.
Thank you. One more question for Mr. Dickson. Mr. Dunn asked me a 36 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. question earlier about removing that percentage or number of meters that are now dedicated for handicapped parking. Are you confident, based on your statistics and your surveys, that should this bill be enacted, that there will be enough on-street handicapped metered spaces to accommodate the current need for those spaces?
Yes. Based on current occupancy rates at those spaces, we feel that we could eliminate a substantial number of those dedicated spaces without any negative impact on people with disabilities and their ability to access the stores and businesses of the City.
Just a point of information again, because the reporters were asking me some of these questions and I want to make sure I was accurate. Take South Street as an example where you have parking on both sides, the south side and the north side. 37 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. So 1000 block -- and it's all the hundred blocks, but we'll just use 1000 block. There are currently two handicapped metered spaces on that block. There's one on the north side, one on the south side. What happens to those meters, if anything, if this bill is enacted?
Well, the ordinance says that up to every other block could be taken out, but it doesn't require that every other block be taken out. We would begin to do a survey of those areas where there seems to be the greatest demand for parking for people with disabilities based on occupancy rates and the types of institutions that are around there, such as hospitals, doctors' offices, rehabilitation centers, and then work with the Mayor's Commission for People With Disabilities to designate those areas that have low occupancy and have the least demand for those spaces and begin by removing those and then converting those to reserved spaces for 38 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. motorcycles or scooters.
But it would be safe to say under that scenario that projections are that about 40 percent or so of those meters, am I accurate, would be eliminated?
That would be -- from the surveys that we have conducted, 40 percent is a safe number.
Is there anyone else here to testify who is not on the witness list? I know from looking out in the crowd there are a number of folks here who are scooter owners, users, and I see the thumbs are going up. Would any of you like to testify or have anything to add to what has already been said? My son is not allowed to testify. He's recusing himself. Yes, sir.
Good afternoon. 39 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC.
Good afternoon. Please identify yourself for the record.
My name is Pedro Rodriguez. I'm the Executive Director of the Action Alliance of Senior Citizens of Greater Philadelphia. I apologize. I have the tail end of the flu, so my voice comes in and out.
Well, stay where you are and everything will be fine.
I will keep my distance. The Action Alliance has a lot of concerns about this bill, and the more I listen to the rationale by the Parking Authority to go ahead with this proposal, the more flags it begins to raise. I would suggest that the Committee consider postponing any action on this bill until the Parking Authority comes back or has more detail, idea of where do they see 40 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. elimination of the parking meters for handicapped individuals is going to happen across the City, particularly because I'm concerned that there might be some undue pressure on eliminating such meters responding to the concerns of certain business people in some locations rather than doing a more rational allocation of those spaces at this point. The other issue that I would like to raise is that this should not be one mode of transportation against another competing for parking spaces in the City. We believe that there should be accommodation for both and would support the notion that we should encourage that as a City policy the use of other forms of transportation rather than motor vehicles, than cars and automobiles and so on. So I want to make that clear, put that on the table. But, again, I'd just like to express our concern that we're really worried that there might be a rush to 41 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. eliminate some so-called premier spaces responding more to the concerns of specific businesses rather than the overall general welfare of the individuals who have physical disabilities and who need those spaces to go in and out from those locations that they frequent.
Thank you. I believe that Mr. Dickson answered some of your questions. They may not be as specific as you would like, and I think Mr. Dickson will be more than willing to take some of the time to talk to you. They're very sensitive about areas where institutions, hospitals and medical facilities, obviously those are places I think would be the last place we'd look to eliminate the handicapped metered parking. There are other places, South Street is an example, which is pretty much an entertainment venue, and from personal observation -- it's my district, I'm down there often doing things -- it's 42 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. rare that I ever see those spaces being used. So from a practical matter, I think that those are places you would see some elimination or reduction in the number of spaces. What I would do is -- and I appreciate the fact that you're saying you're willing to at least go through this because you understand that it's an opportunity maybe to accommodate both sides, and that's what we intended to do three years ago, and I think that proved to be successful. I would ask that we at least vote the bill out of committee, and it will give you guys two or three weeks before we recess before any final action on the bill were to take place to see if you can resolve some issues and get at least some answers to your questions, and hopefully you're satisfied with those answers, but I'd rather not just hold it up. We recess on the 15th. It will 43 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. be sometime in January before we get back, and I think, for all intents and purposes, we would like to get this thing done in the early part of next year when the weather starts changing again and you'll see more activity from scooters as you will over the December, January and maybe February. But I'm not in a rush to do this. And, by the way, I don't have any problem taking responsibility for things. This was initiated at my request. It wasn't the Parking Authority's idea. They agreed with me as soon as I brought it up, but I was the one who initiated it based on personal observation, not so much from the business community complaining to me. The Parking Authority probably hears that because they're out there all day. It was generated in my mind because I saw so many of these spaces being unused for long periods of time, and I was wondering if it really made sense to keep that many number of 44 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. spaces. So I'll take full responsibility for the initiation of this legislation, as I did for the existing bill that we're in today.
Thank you for that. I just want to add another point, that we're not just concerned that the spaces be reserved around hospitals. I know that institutions -- because we have a vibrant city in which people with disabilities participate in all aspects of social life.
Sure. They're shoppers. They go to entertainment venues like everyone else. I understand that.
Absolutely. From personal observations, just around this part of Center City, I see the spaces occupied during the evening. I mean, people go in and out of some restaurants and bars and so on. So I would not like to see the situation 45 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. evolving into which only spaces around institutions are the ones that get to be reserved and not any others.
I was a little bit concerned from Mr. Dickson's testimony that the Parking Authority was looking more in that direction.
I didn't get that from his testimony. What I got is that those are the more obvious places where we may not want to eliminate or reduce them, and there are also other places as well where they would look to based on their current information and surveys as to where they think it would be least harmful to folks. Because if there are places that are being used, no 21 one wants to see those go away. If there are places where they're either not being used at all or very limited and eliminating one of the two spaces on a unit block would still accommodate the 46 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. need, then I think that all reasonable people could agree that it's okay. So it's not every block, every unit block, every hundred block in the City of Philadelphia is going to see a reduction. And Mr. Dickson is the expert on that based on his information, and that's why I'm going to ask that the bill 10 come out of committee, and it will give you folks some time to talk about those areas, and if there's a concern, then you need to bring it to us.
And I'd also just like to add that other organizations need to be consulted, including Adapt, Liberty Resources and some of the other legal institutions. So if a resolution 19 of this could be worked out, you avoid the future problems.
We're willing to look at it. At some point we'll have to make the decision, obviously, and do something that may not be as popular, but as long as it's fair, 47 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. I would be comfortable in moving legislation, if it's in the current form or some adjustment based on discussions that you have with Mr. Dickson.
Thank you. Thank you for your testimony. Is there anyone else here who wishes to testify for or against this bill? (No response.)
Thank you all for coming. I'll ask the Clerk to read the title of the next bill.
Bill No. 050862, an ordinance amending Title 9 of The Philadelphia Code, entitled "Regulation of Businesses, Trades and Professions," by adding provisions regulating the operation of tour buses and amphibious tour vehicles, all under certain terms and conditions.
The first, 48 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. Mr. McDonald and Pat Waterman from the Big Bus Company and Mr. Kravitz from Super Ducks. Maybe you can come up to the witness table, and as everyone is coming forward, I just would like to make a brief statement on my behalf, and I believe it would be the sentiment of my colleagues in City Council, not only of this Committee, is that we welcome the tourism industry and the vehicles that are part of the experience of visiting Philadelphia, be it buses, be it amphibious vehicles, be it horse carriages, what-have-you. I, for one, believe that it's important. It's important to give folks who visit the City of Philadelphia an experience that they may not be able to get in other cities or places that they come from. It's all part of the whole packaging, I believe, of making Philadelphia a much more attractive place to visit. People who live here may use it from time to time. I'm sure they do, but 49 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. it's primarily the businesses that we're talking about today are geared for tourism, and none of us want to see you go away. There may be some constituents that I represent in and around the area where you operate that would like to see everything that you guys do and ladies do go away, but that's not my intention, nor is it the intention of this legislative body. We recognize the importance of having you here. We have been dealing with this issue for a long time. I see Mr. Slocum in the back. We have had the issue and discussion and the debate and arguments from time to time over the horse-carriage industry and some of the regulations that we have implemented. We were being told from time to time that this was the doom's day theory, that these regulations are going to regulate us out of business. I'm sure there may have been some negative impact, and I don't mean this, again, to be sarcastic or 50 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. insensitive, but I still see horse carriages out there and I think, for the most part, they must be still somewhat profitable. If not, they would not be in business, because you're business people and you don't stay in business to lose money, you're in business to make money. And I remember saying this a very long time ago, even before we got into the horse-carriage issue. With our promotion of the City of Philadelphia as a great tourist destination, in particular the area in and around the Historical District, that we need to figure out a way in which we can make traffic flow better, pedestrian flow better. We need to figure out a way in which we can move all this stuff around, and with the limited amount of space, with our very narrow streets that were never built for anything maybe but horse carriages and the competition for that space. And to move traffic as quickly as we can in and around the quadrant of the 51 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. Historical District should have been paramount in everyone's mind, public transportation, SEPTA, City of Philadelphia, traffic engineering. Everybody is a stakeholder. Since that time, we've seen a number of other entertainment and/or tourist destinations evolve. We have the Constitution Center. We have a number of other facilities, whose names escape me at the moment, that have contributed to the tourist experience, if you will, and that's a good thing, as I said earlier. We need to figure a way out, and we have been working on this for a long time, and I want to thank my Legislative Assistant, Brian Abernathy, and all the folks who have been involved in this process for a long time now. And I understand that some of the testimony I'm going to hear is not going to be positive, that people still believe that they're not being treated fairly. The Board, the Committee, whoever is here and 52 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. whoever is listening, will have to make a decision on this legislation.
As I said to the horse-carriage industry folks a few years ago, that there comes a time when this legislative body needs to make a decision and we have to act, because in a perfect world, things would be perfect. But not everybody gets a hundred percent. It's just the nature of the way things go. So while this legislation before us may not be the perfect solution to all of the issues and may not be the perfect solution to your particular business or businesses, I believe at least it's a foundation and a good start. And going forward, if we don't make any adjustments between now and the time this bill is voted on, we can always make adjustments going forward. And I think we have some time on our hands over the next few months when the cold weather is coming and a lot of what you're doing as a business now 53 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. will either not be happening or be significantly reduced because of weather conditions. We're not enacting this at the height of the season. It gives everyone some time to adjust. But what we want to do is, while we're protecting your interests as best we can, and there may be a disagreement on that, is protect the citizens of this City, the taxpayers who pay for the paving of streets and the policing of our streets and all those other things that are important and necessary and are our responsibility, but in addition to that, to protect and encourage the tourism business so that the experience of coming to Philadelphia and using these venues and these products that are out there today, that people walk away with a pleasant experience, that people don't feel as though they were somehow hustled, mishandled because of the competitive nature of the competing interest that is out there 54 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. today. That is not helpful or beneficial to any of us. It's not beneficial to the growing tourism industry and all the money that's being spent to advertise our great City, nor is it, in my opinion, beneficial to your industry to have people walk away with an experience that they may feel was not to the best of their expectation. I'm not suggesting that that is happening to any large degree, but I think it happens, and I think that unless we get our arms around this issue, we will see a more negative response as opposed to a positive response about the Philadelphia experience. So it's not just your industry. It's all of those things that we have worked very hard at, whether it's on this side of the table or your side of the table, whether it's the Constitution Center, whether it's Lights of Liberty, what-have-you. It's all part of that 55 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. wonderful experience, and we got to figure out a way in which we can make that a more pleasurable experience for the people who are using that. So I want to just make that perfectly clear at the onset. Although we may disagree, and I'm sure we're going to disagree, this is not an attack on the industry, because we do not want you to go away. We want to see you thrive. We want to see you prosper, because when you do better, we do better as a City. So thank you, and please identify yourself for the record and proceed with your testimony.
Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and members of the Committee. I'm Patrick Waterman, President of the Big Bus Company of Pennsylvania and Business Development Director of the Big Bus Company, which is a UK corporation. I've been involved in this type of an operation for some 20 years, primarily operating in Central 56 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. London. As an aside from what I was going to say, I would like to thank you for your positive comments on the tourism industry in Philadelphia. We believe that it has a great future and that we've seen substantial growth in that industry over the last three years that we've been operating in Philadelphia. As I say, we've been operating in Philly for about three years, and when we made the initial approach to the City, we were welcomed with open arms and felt we'd be able to contribute to the continuing regeneration of Philadelphia's tourism industry. To date, we've invested in excess of $2 million in our Philadelphia operation. I fully understand the position of the City regarding the lack of licensing, permits and controls, and that this, together with competitive pressures, has led to there being too many vehicles pushed into too small an 57 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. area. Couple this with operators competing for the same turf creates a bad impression for the City, the local workforce and ultimately the tourists, and we accept and support the fact that legislation is required to provide some controls. We, as a business, have two main areas of concern as to what is being proposed. One is focused on the customer; the other is the commercial aspects. For the customer, when considering this plan, it's difficult not to fail, despite the assurances that the various authorities have forgotten what it is that does make the City work for us all and the income they bring, the tourists. What is being proposed makes access to the tour more difficult, makes it more difficult to promote and differentiate between products, particularly given that in our line of the business, the vehicle is the key 58 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. marketing tool available. The proposal to make all customers go to the Visitors Center to purchase tickets has a number of problems. People will come to the vehicle, which is the main means of attracting a customer, only to find that in order to purchase the tickets, they then have to go to the Visitors Center to do so. We believe that in a significant number of cases the customer will just walk away rather than purchase a ticket. These products are generally spontaneous purchases, and due to the nature, sidewalk obstruction is kept to a minimum as passengers can board the vehicle and the sales transaction take place on the bus. With departures every ten minutes in the summer, there are not issues with excessive numbers of people waiting for the next vehicle to arrive. The inability to sell tickets on the vehicle is a major issue for us. 59 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. Commercial aspects: These proposals have a huge impact on the profit performance of our business. The additional cost to Big Bus we estimate to be in the range of $150,000, the majority of which is as a result of rent and commission payable to the Visitors Center. The Visitors Center already sells Big Bus tickets and earned commission of $36,000 in the last year. Under the proposed ordinance, this will be near $150,000, plus the additional cost of having to man the sales booth. Once we are prepared to support the Visitors Center, the restriction on our ability to sell our own tickets on our own vehicles is enough to make the business unviable. I also have to question whether this situation is going to apply to all the City's attractions or have we been singled out as a self-target. We didn't come to Philadelphia assuming that the streets were paved with 60 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. gold.
However, neither do we expect to have the kind of prescriptive legislation that is being proposed brought upon us, making the value of continuing operations questionable, and would ask the Committee to address these concerns prior to adopting the legislation. Thank you for your time.
Thank you. Mr. Waterman, in the UK, people purchase their tickets on the bus?
I was actually in the UK about three years ago. I was on one of the double-decker buses. Are there any other places where they can purchase tickets?
It's a very similar situation to here. In London we have about 65 stops, most of which we would have a pavement salesperson -- we call them customer services representative -- on the pavement. They can sell tickets. They also provide 61 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. other services. They tell people where the nearest restroom is, how to get to the restaurant, how to get to the underground. We also sell tickets through -- we have a sort of similar Visitor Center arrangement where everybody pays the same commission and they equally sell the products. We sell through the hotels. We sell through agents, but roughly in the UK, 75 percent of our business is turn-up on the day. What generally happens, it's a sunny day, you're walking past with your kids and little Johnny says, Can we go on top of the bus, Mommy, and that starts the transaction process. And we have a real concern that if we find ourselves in a situation where we then have to say, You have to walk around the block, go to the Visitors Center, cue up, get your ticket and come back, the spontaneity of the sales will just disappear and we will lose the business. 62 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC.
The on-sidewalk sale, a certain intersection, I'll just say 3rd and Pine as an example, in England when you reach that intersection, is there one salesperson for each -- how many operators or how many tour bus operations are there?
When I started in '86, there were seven operators. That's now consolidated down to two operators.
Generally. We wouldn't necessarily -- you might say there are 30 locations that both companies would have, and maybe we would value some stops more than other people.
That's a business decision based on where you believe you have most sales and volume? 63 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC.
And in addition to hotels and other places that offer that as an amenity, if you will, for their clients in hotels, you did say there was a civic center or a convention center?
Similar to what we're proposing with the Constitution Center?
No. It's exactly as it is now, where the Tourist Information Centers, they're run by a main body and they can sell tickets. They generally sell everybody's ticket, and they sell at a standard commission, so that there's not seen to be any unfairness. I think in London we pay 15 percent commission to the tourist --
15 percent commission on each ticket sale. 64 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC.
So percent commission goes to the entity that sells the ticket?
Here we're 10 proposing the Constitution Center -- 11
Yeah. The 15 problem that we have is, the nature of our business is -- in London, it's 75 percent. Here it's probably even higher. It's near 80 percent, is turn-up on the day and pay dollars on the day, and that's just how these businesses work.
Do you find -- and I'm sure you're going to be honest with me, so I don't want to insult you, but do you find any problems with the on-sidewalk sale as a result of the 65 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. competition between the two companies? I mean, what happens out there? I mean, I know that vendors in general, you know, I got a better deal than you do, and people kind of get like hustled, grabbing somebody's arm, Our bus will give you a 30-minute ride, theirs only gives you 9 minutes, or something like that. 10 Do you have those kinds of 11 problems out there? 12
It would be 16 ridiculous for me to sit here and try to 17 pretend that that doesn't happen. And 18 you -- obviously I'm trying to promote my 19 product against you trying to promote 20 your product. And you have to be very, very careful to try and keep the staff at a level where customer satisfaction is being given, but you're not actually causing the customer to walk away. I've said to my colleagues in 66 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. the industry -- we went through this process in London in 1995. Westminster City Council carried out a very similar exercise. The net result was, they proposed an amendment to the equivalent of an ordinance and the operators belatedly got together and eventually put together a set of proposals that generally took away the impact of the competition. And I think a lot of what is being proposed in this ordinance will achieve exactly what you're looking to achieve. I am very concerned about this proposal of having to not be able to sell on the vehicle around the 5th and 6th Street, around Independence Mall area, and this notion of being pushed into the Visitors Center and us each having a booth, because I'm not even really sure how we make the selling prospect other than this five-booth within the building, Big Bus, Ride the Ducks, et cetera, on them. 67 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. But the separation of the operators is probably the key to resolving the on-street issues, the on-street conflicts that you describe and which, yes, absolutely take place.
I'm a little confused. What makes the process of going into the Constitution Center -- and I'll just use the term it's an information center, because it's a place that you go to. What is the difference between our proposal and what happens at the Information Center in England? I mean, people go into a place and they buy a ticket.
That's exactly the situation that we have in Philadelphia at the moment. If you go into the Visitors Center here, you can buy a ticket for any of the products, amphibious or the land tour products. The difference is that we could also sell you a ticket on the street at the moment.
So that 68 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. one segment of this is pretty much identical to what you have in England?
And I'm not going to try to rewrite this legislation right now, but if there were an accommodation that would allow for the sale, in your case with the bus, to be on the bus but at a location further away from the Constitution Center, maybe midway, as an example, through the tour of your route or several places along the route but not at the corner at the intersection of the Constitution Center or half a block away, does that address some of your problems? Would that address some of your problems, your concerns?
I mean, potentially I think it would. It's just the difficulty of managing that process. 69 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. I personally, speaking for Big Bus, would be very happy if we were allowed to transact a sale on the vehicle but strictly on the vehicle, not on the sidewalk, and I think that's one of the key differences. There's also the reality that as the proposals are set, none of the operators are actually going to be head to head with each other.
So the sale on the bus, on the vehicle, would be acceptable. Would you also be looking to have sales representatives at intersections or just sale -- the bus goes down 5th Street, turns left on Pine. We would have to create other staging area, would we not --
-- in order for that transaction to take place? If I'm going to get onto the vehicle, I need a place to get on.
Yes. At the 70 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. moment, what happens, if you get on the vehicle at any of the stops, other 4 than the two main stops, which is 12th 5 and Filbert or 5th, then you would get 6 taken to one of those two main stops and 7 the ticket transaction would be done 8 there. 9 We man very few of the stops 10 that we use. During the summer, we may 11 have somebody on Broad Street by a stop 12 there, but generally we found in 13 Philadelphia that the focus seems to be 14 to use -- are you familiar with the hop 15 on/hop off concept where you buy your 16 ticket? Generally our passenger surveys 17 would say that the passenger does a 18 complete circuit and then carries on and 19 starts hopping off at the various 20 transactions. And we've noticed compared to London where we have lots of people getting on at different stops, in Philly generally what happens is, people get on at our main stops, do the tour and then stop. 71 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC.
Right. They like the comfort of coming to the main point knowing that the bus is going to be there, knowing what time it's going to depart. I think it's just a comfort factor thing.
And, again, if memory serves me correct, the route that is taken in London compared to the route that it takes in Philadelphia, am I correct, is it safe to say that in London the route doesn't go through as many residential neighborhoods as it does in Philadelphia? Am I accurate in that? Because I remember Big Ben. I mean, we passed the Prime Minister's street, but you just kind of fly by that.
Yes. As I said before, this situation is very, very similar to the situation we found in London with the Council. The Council were petitioned by what is a relatively 72 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. small number of residents, but very influential residents within places like Eaton Square and Barkley Square, which are multi-million dollar homes with --
Exactly. Very similar. And we had to find some resolution to the problem. And I don't think -- again, I'm only speaking for Big Bus, but I don't think any of the operators are shying away from the fact there needs to be legislation, and in some ways, legislation is good for the industry. That's certainly my personal belief. I just feel there are one or two issues contained within that ordinance.
Because I'm just trying to think of when you go south on 6th Street, once you cross Walnut, you're pretty much in the thick of a residential community, and even if I wanted to try to help you figure out 73 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. where you can have a staging, I don't know where it would ever be acceptable to have a vehicle have a staging area within Society Hill within the core of the residential community. And that's why I was asking about in London, I don't remember that thick concentration.
No. It's not quite the same. And there isn't the same level that -- the sort of stops that we have in London tend to be focused around the key areas. We would tend to focus on hotels.
All right. This is helpful to me. It is difficult. I mean, there are some challenges here, and I understand that.
I think if I just make one final comment, the reason that I think it makes sense for this activity to take place around the tourist attractions is that that's what they are and they expect people to be there and we all want people to be there. So to my 74 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. mind, it kind of makes sense that your key staging areas, given that we have to find a way of doing it in a way that's good for the community.
Thank you. Sorry to monopolize. Councilman Ramos, do you have any questions?
I just wanted to hear you because you're an outsider, if you will, coming in, and you have an operation in another city, and I just needed to get some of those facts, and I appreciate your testimony. Mr. Kravitz, please identify yourself for the record. Pull that microphone a little bit closer.
Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman. My name is Alfred Kravitz, President of Super Ducks. I'm the newest and the smallest operator, so I don't really have experience, but I agree with 75 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. Mr. Waterman. There is reason to have legislation and ordinances to regulate the tour business. In my case, my vehicles are a little bit unique to -- whether or not unique to the American market, but the doors, you enter from the right side, and the proposal, from what I understand, to locate us on the east side of 6th Street I think would put a safety issue in the fact that when we pick up people, if we convert our vehicle to pick up people from the left side, when we pick up people from hotels or schools, we'd be laying people off in the middle of the street. The other issues that we have are also ticket sales on the vehicle. To us, that's very important. The uniqueness of the vehicle, people seem to come to the vehicle, they want to ride on it because it is unique, and if they had to be told to go to the Visitors Center or another location and buy their ticket 76 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. and wait in line, a lot of the people who come to Philadelphia are only here for a couple hours and I don't know if they'd want to waste their time standing in line to buy a ticket for an event. They're on a schedule. It's not the type of City-related people that are staying here for a day or two days or three days. It's not a resort area.
That's the motive to our madness. It's going to take them so long to find a place to buy a ticket, they're going to have to stay overnight.
A lot of our customers are locals also. I'd say about a third of them are locals. So a lot of them really don't have a reason really to go into the Visitors Center. That's another reason why it would be very 77 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. counterproductive, I think, to sell tickets only in the Visitors Center. But the safety factor of loading on the one side, the vehicle is built for the American market basically, and to have to load on the opposite side and then when we go to a hotel or we go to a school to pick up people, we'd be letting them off in the middle of the street. So that's an issue that I don't know how we're going to deal with. If there was a loading area that was conducive that would work that we could load on the right side, that would be fine. But, like I said, I'm new in the business, and I'm agreeable to legislation, but those are major issues that I have right now.
We've tried to figure out a way in which we can make the loading and unloading of passengers more safe. We engaged with the Streets Department to see if they can 78 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. do a lay-by, which would move the vehicles further in off the street. For a whole bunch of reasons, that doesn't happen. Before I go any further, my Legislative Assistant, Bill Moore -- I apologize. I kept saying Constitution Center. I meant to say the Independence Visitors Center. I stand corrected. Have you looked into relocating the door from the right side to the left side?
We have a door on the opposite side, but we only have one ladder. So if we move the ladder to the opposite side, then we wouldn't comply with the regulation that we wouldn't have an exit door. We couldn't have two ladders. So the ladder can either be on the left side or the right side, but if we move it to the left side, then when we pick up passengers at a hotel or a school, we wouldn't be able to load them.
How many 79 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. ladders do you have now?
One. We have a choice, we can have the ladder either on the left side or the right side.
We could reverse it. If we reverse it, then we'd be able to pick up people at the Visitors Center, but then when we go to a school or a hotel to pick up people, they'd be getting off in the middle of the street.
Doesn't that same thing happen now? I mean, is every school and hotel you go to on the right side?
No. It's built as an American vehicle. All vehicles pick up from the right side, the curb side. Buses, every SEPTA bus picks up only on the right side.
If you go to the Omni, I'm not saying you do, but if you went to the Omni to pick people up 80 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. and you parallel parked on the north side of Chestnut Street --
But presently you would be loading and unloading on the right side?
Well, what we do, we park on the opposite side of the street when we have --
Yeah, but if we pick up people at the Loews Hotel on 12th Street, then we have the door -- it's on the right side of the street.
I understand, but the way I understand, we generally unload and load on the right side, but every situation doesn't accommodate that anyway. So why couldn't you just --
Normally it does. That's why all SEPTA buses -- 81 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC.
No, but most of the time. But with a SEPTA bus, they have only a door on the right side. It's the same exact situation.
But SEPTA buses go down streets and they have staging areas that are on the right side. In your case, you're moving all over the City in different venues, different locations, and there are times it's going to be the right side and there are times it's going to be the left side.
You're probably right, but 95 percent of the time it is on the right side.
I feel like I'm in one of those Abbott and Costello things, like who's on first here right now. So have you looked into that, though?
The door could be 82 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. reversed. It would just create another problem. Right now there's never been a problem. We've always picked up people on the right side of the street.
Well, occasionally we may have to park, we'll call it, illegally on the opposite side.
I just want to make sure I'm accurate on that one. I'm not going to get you a ticket, by the way. You have to talk to Mr. Dickson about that. Where do you stage right now? Currently where is your staging area?
Right now we're at Ranstead Street, on the north side of Ranstead right at 5th, and also on 5th Street between Ranstead and Chestnut.
And how do you deal with the staging area and your competitor? It's who gets there first?
Well, our 83 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. competitor is on 6th Street. We're on 5th Street.
What is the problem in putting all of the vendors in one location? Do you not think that would -- using the analogy that whether it's -- the Independence Visitors Center I think probably gets a lot of activity, because when you go to a new city for the first time, that's generally where you go for information.
From a business perspective, and I appreciate Mr. Waterman's comments, but don't you think that would help?
Well, on the east side of 6th Street, there really isn't any tourist traffic at all. There's no 22 traffic really there at all. If you had to walk into the Visitors Center and walk to the back -- I've seen lines of people there 4th of July where people are lined 84 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. up outside to use the bathrooms. So they surely couldn't be able to go in during the peak time and buy a ticket. You can't even get in the door. There were lines out there. Tour buses drop off whole groups to go in, use the facilities.
No, but how would they know? They'd have to go through the crowd. It's almost a half a block walk to go through the crowd to go to the back of the Visitors Center to your ticket booth.
You're talking about vehicles that are quite obvious parked on the street. If I was walking down the street, I'd say to the operator, How do I buy a ticket, how could I get on this thing? They're going 85 11/30/05 - STREETS - BILLS 050859, ETC. to direct me to the sales booth.