Good morning, everyone. My name is Bill Bergman, and I will be chairing this meeting of the
Philadelphia Zoning Board of Adjustment. With me is our Vice Chair, Tadetta Graham.
President, Mr. Chairman.
Board members, Michael Johns.
President, Mr. Chairman.
Maya Nguyen.
She should be here any minute. Ryan McAdams.
President, Mr. Chairman.
Layla Beebe.
President, Mr. Chairman.
Also, here is our attorney, Lynn Reuter-Huber, our Executive Director, Ian Haggerty,
and our board administrator, LaKeisha Dandy.
This hearing is to be recorded and will be posted on the ZBA website.
By participating, you consent to be recorded.
This is an in-person meeting with remote participation.
Whether in person or on Zoom, if you're called to speak,
please state and spell your name, wait to be sworn in,
and then every time you testify, please state your name again.
To enter an appearance, indicate the address on your Zoom webinar, speak with a staff member.
Call the ZBA office by the close of business tomorrow.
Please call 215-686-2429 and also provide your name, your email, and the address of the property.
Remote participation.
participation. Raise your virtual hand when directed. When we call you, ensure that you
click join as a panelist button. Use the question answer only for procedural questions, not
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and star 6 to unmute. In-person participation. If testifying, make sure you're close to the
mic so that all present and also the court reporter can hear you no talking eating or drinking during
the hearing aggressive behavior will not be tolerated in in case of emergency please follow
the instructions of the staff the main exit is the two double doors in the rear and there's
a stairwell just to the left outside in case of an evacuation please go to love park remain
there so that we can account for you later let's look at our schedule for this morning
number three mi 2025 005 548 1925 denny street that case is continued continued until tuesday
October 27th at 9 30 a.m. Number four MI 2025 007 219 1828 Brooklyn Street that case is continued
until October 14th at 9.30 a.m.
Number six, MI 2026, 006, 003, 001, 6236 North Broad Street.
That case is continued until October 27th at 9.30 a.m.
and number seven
mi2026 003 018 4810 aspen street that case is continued until october 27th at 9 30 a.m
are there any other requests for continualties
i see no hands chair thank you we're going to go to number one
mi 2024 007 291 4005 brown street verne anastasio is the attorney
this is a resumptive hearing
verne anastasio is coming in as a panelist thank you
all right let me start doing these number three morning mr chair members of the morning um could
you please state your name and spell for this monographer yeah my name is verne anastasio a-n-a-s-t-a-s-i-o
on behalf of Ms. Lily Gao. Right. Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth? I do. Counsel, this is a resumptive hearing. Yes, sir. The way we will do
this, you will give us an update. There'll be questions from the board, questions from the
public, and then the Planning Commission will take a position. Very good. May I share my screen?
Pardon me? Please. May I share my screen? Yes, please. Thank you. Just to give you a brief
Just to give you a brief recollection, it's 4,005 Brown. This is an RM1 adjacent property. It's immediate adjacent to RM1 properties. It's long neglected, left to rot for years.
recollection it's four thousand five brown
It's near several vacant lots and boarded up properties as well. So the redevelopment and the occupancy is a welcome change by the RCO, who voted two to one in support, not non-opposition, but in full support.
which i believe you've received that letter and i have it here page 39 of my exhibit packet
as well the photos submitted just for a point of clarity uh previously submitted are in fact
of existing conditions the property has not been renovated or redeveloped as of yet so this board
has the exact of the photos as it currently exists my my client of course we went through
the rco process met with immediate neighbors uh and to the extent that there were any concerns it
was about trash interior making sure that there was interior and exterior trash storage um but
beyond that when we were here last we did not have the rco letter and we were waiting for that so
with that i'm going to rest okay um questions from the board
questions or comments from our attorney no questions at this time questions or
comments from the virtual audience we're here no hands chair planning commission
I'm sorry.
Pardon me.
Where's Ian?
Okay. Okay. Well, okay. So Vern, we had a problem with planning here.
We'll vote this next week after planning takes a position. Okay.
I understand. Thank you very much.
All right. Thank you.
Have a good day.
okay all right all right so
yep i got it okay
number two
MI-2025-003-858-510-28A Street.
call from the bureau
Mr. Reuter
Darren Steinberg
and Edward
Tomset
morning Mr. Tomset
how about
Paul Bonney
That's okay. Why don't we start? Mr. Primavera, could you please state your name?
Yes. Carl Primavera, P-R-I-M-A-V-E-R-A, along with my colleague Stephanie Boggs, B-O-G-G-S.
We're at Claire, K-L-E-H-R Harrison, law firm. We represent the applicants in regard to this request for variance removed.
Right. Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Yes, I do.
Mr. Reuter.
Thank you. You may please the board. Leonard F. Reuter, R-E-U-T-E-R, Senior Attorney, City of Philadelphia.
Mr. Chair, the city is-
One, I swear you first. Okay. All right. Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, or the truth?
Now, one of you.
The city's understanding is that our initial involvement in this case was because the original appellants were raising a challenge to the refusal.
That particular appeal has been withdrawn, and therefore that's the city's position that that particular challenge to the refusal is no longer an issue.
therefore the city doesn't have any uh direct um involvement in the case sure i'm going to be back
here a while okay all right well well thank you we appreciate you staying needed we're here okay
Okay, thank you. Mr. Steinberg?
Thank you. Mr. Steinberg?
Yes, good morning, Mr. Chair, members of the board. My name is Darren Steinberg. D-A-R-I-N-S-T-E-I-N-B-E-R-G. I'm here on behalf of the near neighbor Protestants, Sean Sullivan and Cade Ota, husband and wife, as well as Jack Wassey and Elizabeth Kim, also husband and wife.
All right. Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth?
Thank you. Counsel? Mr. Thompson?
Good morning.
Guy, could you please state your name and spell for the sonographer?
Yes. My name is Edward Thompson, T-O-M-P-S-E-T-T.
I'm an attorney here. I'm representing myself as the property owner of the immediately adjacent property at 530 South 8th Street.
All right. Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth?
Mr. Bonney, are you online?
Yes, I am.
Good morning, sir.
Could you please state your name and spell it for the stenographer?
Yes, Paul Bonney, B-O-N-I, for the Lombard Muse Owners Association.
Right.
Do you swear or affirm that tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Yes, I did.
So to give everybody what our game plan is today, right, we've had tons of people sitting
here for the last time.
I know.
I got people here listening.
what we want to do is go to the public first we're going to take public testimony today from
the people in the audience and we'll see where we end up with that okay um what uh just for the
record mr chairman uh i've closed i'm sorry i've uh closed my case i know you did i know you did
but i have nothing further but i agree we should hear all the public comments right right but if
I remember correctly, you were getting ready to cross. I'm going to waive that. Okay. So why don't
we do that? Everybody understand we're going to do public testimony, but please be here. If we
have a lot of time left, then we're going to try to go on with a couple other things. All right.
Thanks. Thanks, everyone. Um, we sit down and let people, I would think at least one seat that
people could sit why don't we uh all right so public testimony um and and just just so everybody
knows when we do public testimony when we have this large of a crowd we do have a policy where
the public testimony will be two minutes that you will come up give where you stand with it
and then you know you'll take a seat so um if it makes any sense should we go by row maybe
Right? So people in the front row here who want to testify, please come up.
Good morning, Sarah. Come on up.
Sure, either. Please take a seat. Relax.
Get as close to the mic as you can.
I did. I did. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
say so good morning sir could you please state your name and spell for the stenographer
do you swear or affirm to tell the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth
and sir just as you as you've known could you in two minutes tell us where you stand on this
project. Chair, I apologize. This is the reporter. I did not hear the gentleman. Okay, we'll do it
again. Get that mic closer to you if you don't mind. Okay, try it now. Name? Yes. John Deku,
J-O-H-N-E, capital C-O-U. All right. And thank you very much for waking up the room. We all
appreciate that. Could you please give us in two minutes where you stand on this project? Yes.
In paragraph three of his May 18, 2026 letter to the Zoning Board, Mr. Primavera states, quote, we base our legal position on the literal terms of the code, close quote.
The code states, quote, educational facilities must be in a completely enclosed, detached building, close quote.
this an unambiguous mandate every habitable space must have at least one
openable window for access to natural light and air November 2025 floor plans
show three offices a gymnasium a commercial kitchen and a preschool
classroom having no windows there likely will be more windowless habitable
spaces when bedrooms and a kitchen are added to the residence floor plan common sense says
are added to the residence floor plan common sense says emergency responders must be able to access
more than one side of a school in order to effectively fight a fire or stop a shooter
we understand that what is your position can i finish this if it's within the next minute please
Okay. This building fails to meet vital health and safety, literal terms of the code. Yes, there are four charter schools in pre-1970 buildings attached on two sides, but three sides? The code does not even mention the possibility of buildings attached on three sides. Could this be because it has never occurred to the commission that someone would actually oppose one?
I have to ask if the code makes no provision for the existence of buildings attached on three sides, does the zoning board have the authority to approve one for construction or use?
I think it does not.
Thank you.
So your position is you're against this?
Absolutely.
Thank you very much for coming in.
We appreciate it.
Next person.
Thank you.
I'm also a near name.
Good morning.
Good morning.
Could you please state your name?
Well, wait a minute.
State your name is spelled for the stenographer.
Lisa Rosen, R-O-S-E-N.
Right.
Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth?
Ms. Rosen, you have two minutes to please tell us your position.
I'll speak fast.
I am in opposition to the school at this location.
I am a near neighbor in opposition.
The school is a good idea in a bad location.
Current zoning should be enforced and upheld without variances.
I joined my voice with dozens of my similarly opposed neighbors who all live within half a block or less of this proposed project.
It is we who must feel the money negative effects that a cramped and oversized school will bring to our currently residentially zoned neighborhood.
The support of this project by people well outside the near neighborhood is irrelevant because no one is contesting the merits of adding a school for this purpose to our community.
but rather the debate is about the eight variances sought I think it might be seven
to wedge this into a limited space bypassing essential city-wide school safety standards
and creating daily traffic impediments along the already busy 8th street corridor granting
the variances sought will set unwanted precedents for other school projects throughout the city
to forego similar safety requirements and pierce the sanctity of any residential zoning protections
anywhere in the city primary concerns are maintaining the safety of students as mentioned
the free flow of 8th street traffic which includes two major bus routes and a bicycle lane
and maintaining the relative quiet and scale of our neighborhood which has for generations
attracted medical staff from two nearby hospitals for the ability to get quiet daytime sleep for
the essential night shift workers and a haven for those of us who work from home the muse and
proximal neighbors have been meeting with the developer to address the scale of the building
as relates to their sunlight and sight lines they may reach a memo of understanding on those issues
which are mostly design and construction related except for noise from rooftop recess these
residents to the west of the project will not experience the great impact on quality of life
Ms. Rosen, Ms. Rosen, you've indicated you're against this project. We understand that your
time is up, but thank you for coming. Could you please state your name and spell it for the
stenographer? Just one thing. I know many people that would want to send their children to such
a school, and they absolutely are opposed for safety reasons. Could you please state your name
is spelling for us my name is ruth r-u-t-h d-coup capital d-e capital c-o-u i live at 738 rodman
street for 30 48 years across the street from the garage do you swear or affirm to tell the truth
the whole truth nothing but the truth you have two minutes please to give us your position thank you
i oppose this the non-conforming garage has been not been actively operated on the property since
2016 and the use permit lapsed in 2020 the owner plans to replace the non-conforming use
with a different non-conforming use and expand non-conforming height by 10 feet
consequently the proposed school and residents must conform to current rm1 dimensional and use
standards specifically educational facilities must be in a completely enclosed detached building
this building is fully attached on three sides to 10 residential properties the code makes no
provision for fully attached buildings therefore it is illegal and must not be approved no schools
and no legitimate adaptive reuses in the city are fully attached none that nevertheless the
are fully attached nonetheless the applicant calls his project adaptive reuse and expects
applicant calls his project
the board to contone it despite the fact that it does not qualify for a special exception
required in rm1 his reasoning is specious the comprehensive plan seeks to quote showcase the
built environment of philadelphia by reusing vacant or underutilized sources such as schools
and factories designed to high standards in ways that allow them to continue giving identity and
character to their neighborhoods this the plan does not seek to favor religious organizations
by granting them zoning relief that would not be awarded to secular groups seeking the same
variances thank you very much your time's up and we do understand where you stand on this project
okay thank you very much thank you um next person to testify could you come up and get close to the
Mike. Why don't you state your name and spell for the stenographer? My name is Vera Akula, V-E-R-A-A-K-U-L-A.
Corporate reporter, did you get that? Chair, I was just about to ask for a repeat. Could you get the
mic a little bit closer to you, if you don't mind? We'll have that attorney help you a little bit.
hi could you state your name again uh my name is vera akula uh v-e-r-a-a-k-u-l-a right do you
swear or affirm that's all the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth
so could in two minutes you give us a sense of where you stand with this project
what do you mean by that say that again what do you mean by that do you want this project to go
forward or not? Yes. Okay. And could you tell us quickly why? Last year, I asked my mom to
sign me up for Hebrew school. In the past year, I've learned so much about being Jewish that I
was able to compete internationally. I even won a gold medal. My year-long journey could only
happen after school. I don't have a place to go to that's like my Hebrew school, but also teaches
me my subjects like math, LA, science, and social studies. A school like the one Rabbi Goldman wants
to build could help me and others who want to continue to gain a sense of community the school
is really important to have in my neighborhood i'm asking for you today to approve the building
i understand some neighbors aren't sure about living near the school but from what i know
they'll love it just like me thank you well thank you very much for coming we do appreciate your
comments thank you sir could you please state your name and spell for the stenographer if you would
get closer to the mic? Yes. My name is Samuel Gordon, G-O-R-D-O-N. Right. Do you swear or affirm
to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth? Yes. Sir, in two minutes, could you
tell us where you stand on this project? Okay. I'm not here in official capacity, but I am a member
of CCRA, Center City Residents Association Zoning Committee. We almost did not allow the Goddard
school um thankfully we did it was a lot of neighborhood opposition the school is now on
pine street and fits seamlessly in a wonderful addition to the neighborhood but on a bigger note
in judaism we have a body and a soul same in most religions the school that's being proposed is the
body the soul of it is the rabbi and his family who proposed to live there to have the the school
without the family is really missing the soul the soul in chabad is what pulls everything together
and and by having the rabbi and his family living there 24 7 they will make sure that they maintain
good neighborly relations with everyone that's around and even the people that are now opposed
to it hopefully will see that this is a great addition to the neighborhood and will build on
the family nature of the neighborhood. Thank you very much for coming in. We appreciate it. Could
you please state your name and spell it for the sonographer? Susan Thorin, S-U-S-A-N-T-H-O-R-E-N.
Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth?
in two minutes could you tell us your position yes i wonder if any of you have seen our little
street or visited it okay thank you if any of you have seen our street i've submitted photos
i don't know if you've been there do you have any idea what it feels like it's a very small street
it's one lane directly across from the entrance to this proposed project the entry onto rodman
is from 8th 8th is a very high traffic use area and bus route that's been noted between vine street
all the way to south just a half a block away the traffic often backs up between pennsylvania
hospital at spruce and south where 8th goes from two lanes to one lane heading further south and
one lane dedicated left turn on very very busy south street this routinely block
on very very busy south street this routinely blocks our street in early may
on a random tuesday it took me 20 minutes to cross lombard street to my left turn under rodman a
half a block away the added intensity of 180 to 200 school children requiring twice a day vehicle
drop-offs pickups teachers staff trash deliveries will obviously add to it substantially to an
already overwhelmed small community we already have frustrated drivers trying to avoid south
street by zooming down our street we all knew what we were getting into when we bought on the street
and its proximity to the south street what we didn't buy into was an added this added burden
on our community thank you very much for your presence that's your two your two minutes are up
thank you i'm opposed understanding right sir could you please state your name and spell it
for the stenographer. My name is Brian Cahill. It's B-R-I-A-N-C-A-H-I-L-L. Do you swear or affirm
to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth? I do. In two minutes, sir, could you
give us your position? Opposed, as many or almost all of our neighbors on Rodman Street, such a
large, out-of-scale business, and a school is a business, would have a profound, deleterious
effect on the lives of all nearby residents. Much has been made about the facility being a benefit
the community when it is actually consists of an insular community that has few touch points to the
larger community the engagement with us near neighbors has been evasive dismissive and obtuse
it started as a home project several years ago the details of which were only available in an
obscure library in a time when people don't use libraries at previous meetings eba asked about
the origin of the project and the team lied to the board about a beginning as a school project which
it was not this was accepted without question by the board to whom actually hugged the proponents
lawyer ahead of the hearing throughout the process of it morphing into a proposed school
our concerns were dismissed at the meetings we were finally able to get into two paid traffic
studies ignored rodman street which would be irreparably damaged uh all this time and money
has been wasted on this facility that would be wholly inadequate for the synagogue's ultimate
needs maybe a much larger space detached stool you've heard it the best use for this garage
would be a garage thank you very much sir we appreciate you coming in anyone else in that aisle
the wait wait wait there's a quite a few aisles in front of you right um the third aisle who in
the third row oh i'm sorry i'm just trying to get the next seat go ahead sir uh my name is jeff
j-e-f-f-k-r-i-s-c-i-u-n-a-s right do you swear or affirm to tell the truth the whole truth not
to quit the truth i do sir could you in two minutes give me your position sure good morning i live at
740 robin directly in front of this property while discussions have occurred with the neighbors
behind the property the residents who experience the most direct and continuous impact on this
is the a street rodman and bradford streets we are the front entrance we observe the traffic
the congestion the drop-offs the deliveries the parking every single day our group the 510 front
door community has canvassed the immediate impact areas not only residents but business as well
the petitions that we have submitted contain well over 160 signatures and half of those are within
the 250 feet radius of this project we were here for the last meeting on may 19th we only had 120
so numbers are growing for this protected project against us and becomes clear that this project is
not wanted by the local neighbors who are affected let me be clear our concern is not with education
our concern with scale intensity and location as you have heard from experts and the deficiencies
are real also no local rcos have some more submitted support for this project as they
have attended other presentations with all of us over the past year with the development team
and understand the impact of community as well the traffic and land news studies is insufficient
it does not adequately analyze peak overlap between schools drop off commuter traffic bus routes
It does not meeting fully evaluate surrounding intersections beyond the immediate block.
It fails to address parking demand, delivery, refuge, and immediate impact of school combined
with this, including evenings with events, because that's what will occur.
We have been told by the school to manage to pick up what might happen and drop off
or prevent street parking.
However, the afternoon of our last meeting in May 19th, I attended and went to the school
that they currently have their kids at.
I submitted pictures where the cars were parked already on the street, those vehicles are
not actually picking up children this occurred at a smaller site an additional scale and activity
here sir thank you very much we understand your position thank you thank you could you please
state your name and spell it for the stenographer sure my name is lisa hardy h-a-r-d-y do you swear
or affirm to tell the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth i do please proceed sure
i live at 714 rodman and have been there for 25 years yep this i am opposed because this is a low
This I am opposed, because this is a low rise residential neighborhood defined by 2 and 3 story homes walkable residential. Many reasons you've heard today for this.
residential neighborhood defined by two
Density of application is not appropriate. The huge number of people coming and going is not appropriate. It'll affect Rodman street, but also the back alley that exists between Rodman and south where cars will cut through.
and this is where people walk and kids play and it's just not appropriate to have this many people
coming and going zoning exists to protect communities from exactly this type of incompatible
development without these exceptions without hardship we undermine the integrity of the
entire zoning code and we enrode trust in this process thank you very much for coming in we
appreciate it ma'am could you please state your name and spell it for the stenographer get closer
to the get close name is rachel glenn g l y n and i'm speaking here hold on hold on hold on
do you swear or affirm to tell the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth yes sir please proceed
so my name is rachel glenn and i am here to speak up in favor of the variances and in favor of the
building of the school i think the school is going to be a great asset to the community
I think the reason is because Rabbi Goldman, his wife Leah, the architects, they are doing everything humanly possible to accommodate the needs and the concerns of the neighbors.
I myself was once a neighbor facing a zoning board about the building of a school when I lived in New Jersey, and it was a terrible situation where nobody cared about our concerns.
I'm seeing exactly the opposite.
it is fundamental to what rabbi and Leah believe in, that they believe in treating people as
made in the image of God and to be respected. We thank you. Listen to. We understand your
position. We thank you for coming in. Thank you very much. Next person, please. Good morning.
Could you please state your name and spell for the stenographer? Yes, chair. My name is Jordana,
j-o-r-d-a-n-a greenwald g-r-e-e-n w-a-l-d do you swear or firm to tell the truth told truth
nothing but the truth i do could you please give us two minutes of where you stand yes thank you
so much i am opposed um as is my husband who's here representing us to this project i am here
in my capacity as a co-owner of 530 south 8th street which is directly adjacent to this property
The entire north side of our home is attached to the existing building that is there, and you know I think this board is called on a lot of the time to make really difficult decisions.
I don't think this is one of them. I think there is a lot of emotion attached to what's happening here, and that is completely understandable.
But at the end of the day, the facts are and the law are what this board needs to consider, and the applicant has not met their burden.
There is not evidence of an actual hardship.
What we're being talk is being talked about and presented is a hardship that is based on the personal decision of the person who purchased this property to decide to use it for in a very generous manner to try to do something for their community, which is lovely.
but they still remain subject to the same zoning laws as everybody else.
Thank you very much for your time. We understand your position. Thank you.
Sir, could you please state your name and spell for the stenographer?
Sure. I'm Stuart Balno, S-T-E-W-A-R-T. Last name is Balno, B-O-L like lion, N-O.
Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth?
I do, sir.
Could you give us two minutes of where you stand?
yes we're here today to discuss the immediate and long-term future of an abandoned property
at present it stands unoccupied and unused in the middle of the block in a relatively
prosperous neighborhood of philadelphia the vision of benay abraham is to improve the building
to serve the community in a positive and meaningful manner in this moment the zoning
board has two choices yes and no if you enter no the vacant building which provides no purpose or
asset to the community will stand as is since we can't predict the future none of us has any idea
about what may come next if you answer yes you already know benay abraham is a responsible
neighbor you can expect we will continue to play by the rules and meet obligations after all the
Members of the congregation have a religious,
as well as moral, command to love thy neighbor.
Before you decide, please consider the wisdom and reality of compared to what?
Before you decide, please consider the wisdom
and reality of compared to what.
Nature abhors a vacuum.
B'nai Abraham is offering this opportunity to fill this vacuum with a responsible, considerate, and time-tested partner.
Thank you. Thank you very much.
I really understand where you are.
Sir, could you please state your name and spell it for the stenographer?
Michael Slowey, M-I-C-H-A-E-L-S-L-O-W-E-Y.
Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth?
Sir, could you take two minutes and tell us where you stand?
I'm in favor of the school.
I think that if we revert back to the little girl's testimony and you listen to the children's side instead of what traffic is about, that they'll all have a similar story and the blessings that it's going to bring.
Thank you very much for coming in.
We appreciate it.
Sir, good morning.
Could you please get close to the mic?
could you please state your name and spell it for the stenographer my name is larry schiffman
s-c-h-i-f-f-m-a-n right do you swear or affirm to tell the truth the whole truth nothing but the
truth sir could you get close to that mic and then tell us for two minutes where you stand okay
i stand strongly in favor of the new school um i have two grandchildren who were products of the
manet abraham preschool and it was a transformative experience for them it was a very wonderful thing
that they've benefited from tremendously um i walked past the building on the way here uh this
building is scrap is decrepit it's falling apart today one of the garage doors was open and you
could see the interior which was truly alarming looking um this school is going to add tremendously
to the community it will be appreciated greatly and I hope that people can see can be a little
bit more generous Benjamin Franklin donated money to the first synagogue in Philadelphia his own
money and I'd like to see that spirit continued now all right all right thank you very much for
coming in good morning ma'am could you please state your name and spell for the sonographer
Good morning. My name is Tova Zatawi. Z as in zebra, T as in Tom, A-O-U-I.
All right. Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?
I swear.
Could you please?
I'll wait.
Please wait.
Let's everybody in the front, any of these rows, when people come back, we don't make comments, okay?
Could you do me a favor? Could you please take two minutes and tell me where you stand?
i only need one oh okay thank you i'm a teacher okay so i want to say good morning to you and i
want to tell you that i'm a member of the benet abraham synagogue for 15 years i have been a
teacher in the philadelphia public and charter school system for 33 years yes i agree and support
that we need more quality schools in philadelphia it will strengthen the city in several concrete
ways. We are offering educational excellence. Philadelphia's existing Jewish schools have
already delivered on its promise, and we intend to continue this tradition. Our school emphasizes
rigorous academics infused with values, constructive dialogue skills, and global awareness. A new school
would extend this ecosystem, offering more families access to strong education. I am sure we all agree
that Philadelphia needs more safe, supportive youth spaces. This particular Jewish space,
led by this particular synagogue, provides emotional safety, cultural belonging, and an
anti-racist, anti-classist education for all Jewish children from every background. Frankly
speaking, a new school anywhere is a better investment than building another new prison.
b'nai abraham synagogue intends to strengthen neighborhoods by attracting families who want
high quality values driven education with more options in public charter or independent schools
it also supports economic vitality to the city by offering more jobs for teachers what's the
bottom line our new jewish school would not only serve jewish families it would add educational
capacity, cultural richness, civic engagement, and community stability to Philadelphia as a whole.
Thank you. Thank you very much for coming in. We appreciate it. Sir, could you please state your
name and spell it for the stenographer? Yeah. My name is Alan Silverman, A-L-A-N-S-I-L-V-E-R-M-A-N.
Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth?
I do. Sir, could you take two minutes and tell us where you stand on this project?
I'll try to take one. And I did not collaborate with my predecessor.
Okay, go ahead.
I'm a member of Congregation B'nai Abraham, and I'm here to testify to the benefit of K-8 Hebrew Day schools like the one proposed.
I graduated from just such a school. It was also located in a residential neighborhood.
I graduated from just such a school. It was also located in a residential...
I know of no adverse impact on the neighborhood, only positive benefits. I found it a big help
in my subsequent education and formation of values. My fellow Hebrew Day school students and I all
graduated to public high schools. I was valedictorian of my high school class. I earned
engineering degrees from Rensselaer Polytechnic at MIT, and I had a career in industrial management.
Other graduates with whom we're still alive and with whom I remain in touch went on to careers including a federal administrative law judge, successful management recruiter, math teacher, a rabbi, a nurse, and the military.
Two of my grandsons are presently students at a K-8 Hebrew Day School in the D.C. area, and their education appears to be superb, excellent preparation in subject matter and in values.
This proposed school will help keep strong families in Philadelphia and feed well-prepared graduates into Philadelphia's public high schools.
Thank you very much for coming in. We appreciate it.
Good morning. Could you please state your name and spell it for the stenographer?
Jamie Goldberg, J-A-M-I-E-G-O-L-D-B-E-R-G.
Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth?
Could you give us two minutes on your thoughts?
Yes. Thank you so much for taking the time to hear from us. I appreciate it.
I live two blocks away from the proposed project and strongly support it there are three points I
want to make today one this project has significant support from a diverse range of neighbors two the
school is a logical and contextual use for this site and three beyond the benefits to school
families this school will benefit the surrounding community on point one this school has wide
support from the surrounding neighborhood in May I wrote an article in the Society Hill reporter
which is our neighborhood newsletter and about this project people stop me on the street jewish
non-jewish kids no kids older younger to express support for having another school in our
neighborhood and a relief that this that this vacant site would be developed point two those
of us living nearby know that this is actually a wonderful location for the school it's a mixed
use corridor just a block and a half from the busy pennsylvania hospital complex just half a block
from the south street the immediate block has a mix of um single family homes mixed
use residential buildings and it totally makes sense to have a community serving school right
there on point number three the benefits do i have time all right one three will be your last
excellent thank you um the um right now families seeking jewish education you've heard have to bus
an hour out to the suburbs the impact of having these kids stay in the neighborhood means that
they can be um mixing with their non with their non-religious school neighbors in the after
school program supporting all the small businesses who serve the after school programs parents after
drop-off patronizing the local businesses thank you for your time thank you very much sir could
you please state your name and spell for the stenographer sure joseph glenn last name is
spelled G-L-Y-N. Right. Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the
truth? I do. Could you give us your two-minute? Sure, sure. I've been a near neighbor. I've been
living in my house for 15 years. I'm a strong supporter of the school, and I would urge this
board and my neighbors, too, to be strong supporters for three reasons. For more than a
decade, this building has been an unused, huge, significant eyesore and source of light. This is
likely because of the significant work that will go into need to make it usable and attractive
space. I know, for example, there's a large concrete platform in the building itself that
to destroy it will take three months of constant drilling. This will disrupt the quality of life
and hurt local businesses, but the school is going to incorporate this into the building itself,
saving the neighbors and the community with this disruption to their quality of life. Second,
the school will cause minimal disruptions in use to the neighborhood. We're talking about two 30
minute mini intervals of a slight bump in vehicle traffic, morning and afternoon, only during the
school year, and not for another decade until it's fully implemented. There's plenty of time to see
what works and what doesn't work. Concerns about quality of life are particularly odd because we're
so close to South Street. Every Friday and Saturday night we have noise disruptions, tons of foot and
vehicle traffic. We just had World Cup watch parties that went until midnight with porta
potties outside of my neighbor's homes for weeks, smelling up the whole neighborhood. The idea that
the school would be more disruptive to the neighborhood, quality of life, than South
street is absurd and you have to stop that's the second or third time you've done it if not you're
going to have to leave please proceed the school i believe will also significantly improve the
neighborhood it's a beautiful structure and great mission the rabbi and his family would be great
thoughtful additions to the neighborhood they will stabilize the block just last thing i just
want to say the parents when they drop off their kids can patronize local businesses all the non
head shop stores on south street will greatly improve uh from their patronage all right thank
from their patronage. Thank you very much. Sir, could you please state your name and spell for
Thank you very much.
Sarah, could you please state your name and spell for the stock?
the stenographer? Sure. Hi, Stuart Goldberg, S-T-U-A-R-T. Do you swear or affirm to tell
the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth? I do. Please proceed. The case for my support
starts with the people behind this application. Rabbi Goldman and Lay Goldman has spent three
decades showing this community and the city what good neighbors look like. They've been there
tirelessly for Society Hill and Washington Square West from births to burials and every high, low,
and mundane moment in between. In doing so, they've built a stellar reputation as pillars of
this neighborhood, taking over the stewardship of a historic 1870s congregation and ensuring that
this institution that has served the community for more than 150 years will be around to serve
generations of Philadelphians to come. That work happens every day at the Center City Jewish
Preschool, which has educated children in this neighborhood for more than 20 years.
Walk down Lombard Street on a random weekday and you'll see CCJP kids running around Star Garden,
chasing the ice cream truck before it can finish its first jingle, or parents catching up at the
local coffee shop, you'll see, hear, and feel a thriving community. And that's the crux of my
support. We're not asking you to support, we're not asking you to trust us as we vouch for an
unknown quantity. We're asking you to support the expansion of an already thriving institution
run by operators with decades of experience in this neighborhood. The chance to bring a vacant
lot back to life as a vibrant educational home does not come often. I humbly and strongly ask
you very much for coming in good morning could you please state your name and spell for the
stenographer yes i'm ellen well i think you're gonna get a little closer to the mic pull right
up to you that's it go ahead i'm ellen cohen e-l-l-e-n c-o-h-e-n do you swear or affirm
to tell the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth yes please proceed ma'am and give us
your two-minute views i'm in favor of the project okay i'm in favor of the project for very personal
reason since i moved to center city about 12 years ago all my favorite stores restaurants
and bakeries have closed the streets i walk daily have multiple empty storefronts and they feel
derelict ugly and slightly dangerous i'd love to see safe wholesome businesses move into every
center city neighborhood and what could be more safe and more wholesome in any neighborhood than
a school for young children in the case of the jewish school the people who need such a school
tend to move nearby and we raise property values maybe if this neighborhood has a school
the whole area could support the bakeries and the restaurants that i lost that would greatly
improve my quality of life without i think irreparable harm to anyone thank you very much
for coming in tonight. Good morning. Could you please state your name and spell it for the
stenographer? Absolutely. My name is Cassidy Leyendecker, C-A-S-S-I-D-Y, Leyendecker, L-E-Y-E-N-D-E-C-K-E-R.
Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth? I do.
Could you give us your two-minute viewpoint? Absolutely. So I stand in opposition. I serve
currently as the Democratic committee person for the Fifth Ward, Fifth Division, which includes
many of the neighbors who would be directly impacted by this proposal over the past several
weeks i've spoken with residents and listened to their concerns one thing has been consistent this
is not in opposition to a school people support the redevelopment of this site and welcome an
educational use in the neighborhood the concern is that the proposal goes well beyond that as
it's currently presented it combines a school religious assembly space community gathering
space and significant residential use into a single project many neighbors feel that there
has not been a clear explanation of why all these uses need to exist together or why they require
their zoning relief being requested if this project's stated mission is to provide a safe
environment for children then safety cannot be treated as an afterthought it must be demonstrated
not assumed i respectfully ask the board to carefully consider whether any relief granted
should be narrowly tailored to support the educational mission that has been presented
to the community rather than the broader mixed-use program currently proposed all right thank you very
much for coming in good morning could you please state your name it's spelled for the stenographer
yeah kayla dickstein jacini k-a-i-l-a-d-i-c-k-s-t-e-i-n-g-i-u-s-i-n-i do you swear or affirm
to tell the truth the whole truth not to quit the truth i do could you please give us your two month
two minute viewpoint all right i'm speaking in support of the school for benet abraham okay i
I have a long history of being part of this community.
My grandfather and my father were leadership
at B'nai Abraham and my children
are fifth generation at the synagogue.
I've had the very great privilege of knowing the Goldman's
for the past 25 years.
They came to a dying Jewish community and revived it.
I personally watched the evolution of this community
from empty and cluttered storage spaces
to lovely engaging classrooms
where my two-year-old sings and laughs and learns.
And now our community needs more.
our community needs more. In order to remain in my home, my husband and I have to be able to educate
in order to remain in my
our children, and sadly, our community lacks a place to do just that. If anyone wishes to educate
their children in their Jewish roots, we must travel very far outside of the city or out of
the state, forcing a choice between remaining where home is or giving our children the education
they deserve. The purpose of a city and civic organizations it serves is to meet the needs of
the people. The Jewish community, which continues to grow and contribute all along this economic
corridor, requires a place to educate our children. This school would allow my family to remain in the
city we live, in the community we call home, while giving our children the opportunities for which we
all strive. Were we not permitted to build this community necessity? Would constitute a true
hardship, not just for my family, but for all of us who want to be able to live in Philadelphia
while practicing our religion and traditions long established in these very neighborhoods.
I urge you to act to ensure the continued growth and prosperity of the community as a whole
and see how refusing this project would result in countless families continuing to flee the city
to find a place where they can have a school that meets their needs.
This is an opportunity which will result in economic and community success
and prosperity or stagnation. Thank you.
Thank you very much for being here.
sir could you please state your name it's spelled for this yes first name william last name town is
k-a-l-n-i-z right do you swear or affirm to tell the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth
yeah please proceed sir yes your zoning board the proposal of you before you is thoughtful
do me a favor pull the mic just a little bit closer to you that's it there you go okay the
The proposal before you is a thoughtful and appreciate use of this property.
Today, 510 South A Street is occupied by a vacant, non-conforming, two-story garage that was built in 1929 and covers the entire lot.
the proposal would transform this existing unutilized structure into a vibrant educational
institution serving approximately 180 students from pre-cray from pre-k through eighth grade
the land use study examined schools throughout philadelphia and found that this location
has the highest diversity of surrounding land uses among the schools surveyed.
In other words, a school is not out of a place here.
It is consistent with the character and the fabric of this neighborhood.
This is a modest-sized school thoughtfully designed to fit within its urban context
while giving new life to a property that has long been underutilized.
We believe that this project represents exactly the kind of thoughtful,
adoptive, reuse and community investment that Philadelphia should encourage
and that this location is entirely appropriate for a school.
Thank you very much.
Thank you very much.
Your time's up, but we do appreciate your comments
and appreciate you coming in today.
Sir, could you please state your name?
Good morning, Commissioners.
My name is Chris Otten, Philly Otters.
I'm trying to open a store.
Do me a favor.
Do me a favor.
Could you spell your last name for this?
I'm from O-T-T-E-N.
All right.
Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth?
Nothing but the truth.
Could you give us two minutes of your views?
Land use is your purview, and that's what I wanted to talk about today.
My name is Chris Otten.
I'm trying to open a store on South Street.
I haven't actually proceeded with that.
I've signed the lease, but I cannot open the store because of this project.
I'm quite worried about it.
We're talking about a land use intensity.
This is an RM1 zone land use intensity.
This is housing.
These are customers that might attend my store.
To the proposed and what 20 people do just by right versus 200 plus people every day,
delivery trucks, serving the kitchen, serving the kids, events at night.
Now, I want to collect, I want to correct the record because I believe the lawyer here
next to me um suggested that this was a two-lane trafficked road just feet south of the school it
bottlenecks to one lane as it hits south street you can imagine with all of this activity that's
not by right uh it would really bottleneck that road and those businesses are going to hurt
i myself along with the two rcos along with tens of businesses along south street are opposed to
this and uh let me just conclude with i have this permit here that shows in 2016 they were ready to
demolish the site. That perceived hardship, the alleged hardship about not demolishing the
building, they had this permit in 2016, so now they want to project that hardship on us.
They have that. They had this permit in 2016. So now they want to project that hardship on us. It's not fair.
Thank you very much for coming in. We appreciate it. Good morning, sir.
Could you please state your name and spell it for the stenographer? Yes. Good morning.
My name is Loren Ostroff, L-O-R-E-N-O-S-T-R-O-F-F.
Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth?
I do and I'm also speaking I'm speaking in favor of the project as a both of my daughters
graduated from the preschool and also have gone on to thrive at Jewish day schools an hour away
from here so I do have a short poem for you a school for our future we call it in a city built
on neighborhoods where generations have found a place to belong we ask you today to help us build
a future where our children can grow strong on eighth street a building stands waiting for new
life a new beginning not merely walls but classrooms filled with children learning growing
and dreaming a school is more than brick and stone it is where a child discovers who they are
where knowledge becomes a guiding light and where young hearts learn to reach for the stars
philadelphia has always made room for schools for faith for community and here in this diverse and
vibrant neighborhood, we seek to add another thread to the tapestry. A Jewish school open to
the future, rooted in heritage, values, and pride, where children learn to carry forward the
traditions that have sustained us through the tide. We ask for your approval, not simply for
a building, but for a vision, a promise, a place to belong for the children who will walk through
these doors and the generations who will follow them along. Let this vacant building become a
place of light let learning faith and community take flight let us build a school that strengthens
this neighborhood and helps make philadelphia's future bright and brighter and right we ask you
to say yes not only to the school but to the children whose future begins within its walls
the first of its kind in the city thank you very much anyone else in their audience
questions or comments from the virtual audience
yes chair we have two hands up so far the first is carl fritton will be allowed to speak all right
good morning could you please state your name and spell it for the stenographer
uh good morning sir thank you my name is carl k-a-r-l fritton f-r-i-t-t-o-n
great do you swear or affirm to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth
Yes, I do.
Sir, could you give us your two minutes of a viewpoint?
Yeah, I'll give you less than that, sir.
My wife and I live and own at 727 Bradford Alley, less than 150 feet from the dilapidated rundown parking garage.
As articulately stated by a number of others before me,
my wife and I view that the replacement of that garage with a well-thought-out educational school
for kids K-8 is largely preferable to what's there now. I don't see it as an easy thing to
reject. It's been an ugly, unsightly, unsafe building for years, for the 10 years that we've
lived there, replacing it with an educational school when we all know that Philadelphia needs
all the good educational programs it can get, should be entirely supported by our neighbors,
And my wife and I do without reservation. So we hope that the board will approve the project. Thank you very much for taking the time to calls. Next hand, please.
Okay. Next is Anita Brazil. Okay. Good morning.
next hand please anita brazil can you unmute yourself i am unmuted all right good morning
could you please state your name and spell it for the stenographer of course thank you anita
A-N-I-T-A Brazil. B-R-A-Z like zebra. I-L-L. Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth,
the whole truth, nothing but the truth? I do. Could you give us two minutes of views?
I'm at 735 Bradford Alley, the nearest neighbor on Bradford Alley to the proposed school. Like
Carl Fritton and many other of my neighbors on Bradford Alley, I warmly, enthusiastically,
and wholeheartedly welcome the use of that building for a faith-based school. I know the
school on Lombard Street. I see the population. They are our neighbors and friends. I would like
to see the vibrancy of a school and the promise of the future in this neighborhood. If you choose
to live in the city, and in this part of the city, we accept noise traffic disruption. It's going to
it's going to occur so i don't expect that the life i had in the suburbs where it was quiet
occur. So I don't expect that the life I had in the suburbs
but not vibrant is going to be the same the school will bring vibrancy and i encourage the board
to approve this project so that we can all live together in peace and prosperity as neighbors
thank you very much for taking the time to close we appreciate it is there another hand
yes Eugene last name it beginning with a D okay yeah good morning sir could you
please state your name and spell for the stenographer yes that's uh Eugene the
fiat Nick e u g e n e d e s y a t and I k do you swear or firm to tell the truth
the whole truth nothing but the truth Thank You Commissioner I do thank you
chair if I did yes please proceed I think most schools have some degree of events that happen
outside of school hours to further they do that to further its mission of building a school
community and engaging parents so I see that in harmony with with the school this and the
residential use I also see that as a benefit I live in a couple of blocks down seven you know
700 block of south 8th street and i'm also involved with my civic in my experience a continuous
presence a door to knock on day or night actually helps not hurts to address any potential issues
you can come and talk to your neighbors that way um in my opinion the applicant i've seen
you know this project evolve the there's been work done to iterate the design to address
specific concerns and at this point i think we should allow this project to move forward thank
you thank you very much for calling we appreciate it next hand gabrielle howard okay we'll be allowed
to speak good morning gabrielle
sorry can you hear me now i can could you please state your name and spell for the stenographer
gabriel howard g-a-b-r-i-e-l howard h-o-w-a-r-d you swear or affirm that tell the truth the whole
truth nothing but the truth yes uh could you give us your two minute viewpoint yes i am for this
project i've lived at eighth and lombard i'm a near neighbor i've lived there for almost 20 years
I moved there as a single bachelor living in town, and now I'm a father, a married father of three.
I've watched both of my sisters who lived right nearby me move out of the city in search of better schooling.
I myself send my kids to public school as well as to B'nai Abraham preschool.
I've sent them.
um we understand my wife and i both understand the challenges this project might you know
bring up into our corner it might lead to some more traffic challenges but as i drive throughout
the city i drive through many schools i don't look at it as um something that annoys me anymore
but i can see the vibrancy of the city young families out and i think that that's what the
city really needs to attract to keep these great young minds into the city. Rabbi Goldman and his
wife Leah have been unbelievable to help keep us in center city Philadelphia and give us a
community of great people. And I just see this project continuing to build on many great
relationships. I think we'll see our parks continue to fill up with people. And I am
completely for this project even though i live nearby thank you very much for taking the time
the calls next hand i see no more hands here okay um so lynn i think what we we can do we can
bring up um mr steinberg and finish his uh see how much how much longer do you think you need
Thank you, Mr. Snyberg.
Oh, sure.
Right.
I just, my laptop is back.
your chair i'd like to call up my client sean sullivan sure mr sullivan have it over here
Sure. Mr. Sullivan, how about over here?
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Good morning, sir. If you would get close to the mic,
could you please state your name as spelled for the stenographer?
Certainly. Sean Sullivan. That's S-E-A-N-S-U-L-L-I-V-A-N.
Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth?
I do, Mr. Chairman.
Counsel?
Sure. Thank you. Good morning, Sean.
can you tell the board where you reside please sure lombard muse house number 17. and how long
have you lived there since april 2020. okay and can you just describe for the board what it's
like living there it's a wonderful place to live i live there with my wife kidey our 11 year old son
even though we're in the middle of the city and we have all the access to all the great
things the city offers because of the structure of the lombard muse it winds up being a really
nice quiet place to live even with stuff going on south street from our house we don't hear
things my son's able to get his homework done it's a really beautiful quiet place to live
okay um i'm not sure how i share my screen do i just share my screen if i want to pull up
Sean, I'm pulling up an exhibit that we submitted the other day.
There are two letters from Mr. Bonnie dated March 2nd, 2026, which was two days prior to the initial hearing.
Are you familiar with those letters?
and were those letters written in support or opposition to the application in opposition okay
and is that why you didn't attend the first zoning board hearing because your association
was in opposition that's correct i had no expectation at that point that i'd need to
be personally involved okay and are you familiar with the development agreement that was entered
into between lumbar muse and the applicant yes i am sorry i don't have that
i think mr bonnie submitted it last evening as an exhibit i don't have it readily available but
um we we we have it you have it okay um have you reviewed that agreement i have okay and how did
you vote on that agreement? I voted no. And why? I have a number of concerns about the project.
First, I think the building is just too big as it's proposed right now.
Substantial portions of it reach over 55 feet in height. It's going to tower over our homes
and our neighborhood. I have a lot of concern about noise, especially from all the non-educational
events that are permitted under the agreement. There are non-educational events that are permitted
every day of the week, on weekends, outdoor
amplified music until 8 p.m. at night. I'm concerned about how that will
impact our quality of life.
The agreement is for itself.
I mean, with all due respect.
I understand your objection, but why don't we just continue this?
I'll take that into consideration.
Besides the school, what other uses are you referring to?
uh the agreement permits weddings bar and bar mitzvahs with lunches served with liquor served
with no limit on the number of events uh it permits uh various religious celebrations
both indoor and one week long outdoor um a an annual fundraising banquet so from my perspective
this is a building that's going to be used it's not just as a school during school hours but it's
going to be used evenings weekends um so the intensity of use isn't just the school okay
and do you have an outdoor space in your home i do can you describe that for us uh off of our
third floor we have a terrace uh facing east directly across from the garage building on the
terrace we have uh an outdoor container garden where we grow eggplant uh peppers tomatoes we
have a grill we have outdoor dining space and and where is that in relation to this proposed
development it's directly across from it from my terrace i can look out and i can see over the roof
of the garage building so i have an east view right now uh looking out over the garage building
and with the penthouse that's proposed and the pilot house would that impact your
light yeah it'll loom over our over our terrace um it's directly across from us it'll look
directly down onto us um so i have no doubt it will impact our light okay are you concerned about
Um, so I have no doubt it will impact our light. Okay. Are you concerned about any other impacts this might have to you? I'm concerned about lots of privacy. You know, the third floor of our house is where my son does his homework. He practices piano. He reads up there. Um, anybody on the roof deck or the pilot house will be looking directly into our third floor and onto our terrace.
have you spoken to neighbors about this project i have i've attended community meetings uh i was
one of the folks who went around and canvassed door-to-door in the neighborhood particularly
focused on near neighbors and what did you uh sense from all that folks i talked to substantially
more that i talked to were opposed uh than in support um so i just want to we we submitted
a couple petitions one last night which was an online petition which is in your package
um let's see are you aware whether the applicants have made any posts about this project on social
media i am and how would you describe those posts uh there were some uh there's a facebook
and instagram post related to a fundraiser for a capital campaign for the project which describes
it both as a school and as a community center as a center for jewish life so to me it strikes me
it's clearly not being planned it's just a school it's much much broader than that
right and if this project were just a school that otherwise complied with zoning would you
have any objection to it if the traffic problems were alleviated and it was just a school if it
wasn't this hulking looming residence i'd have no objection at all okay i have no further questions
your cross-examination well um i think to close we may take written comments okay
uh we both submitted memos of law so that's okay yeah we already have that okay
And also, in the record, rather than cross-examining and taking the time, you'll see the agreement, which speaks for itself, you'll see the plans, you'll see the shadow studies, you'll see all the expert reports that are contrary to what this layperson has just said.
Mr. Bonney?
I just had one last point before I—
Why don't we—Mr. Bonney, are you there?
Okay, what's your last point?
so again i'd like to re-request the ability to cross-examine the rabbi the reason i wasn't
allowed to at the last hearing was because my client and i weren't in attendance i think we've
established the reason for that was that we were expecting lombard muse to be in opposition only
to find out the day of the hearing they're in favor of it right so i if if you don't want me
to cross-examine i could hand up my cross-examination questions you can consider whether
you want me to ask of them it's up to you but i do want to i feel like we've established the
ability to do that um no we're not we're not going to do that i mean i understand you you
weren't here the last time but uh we're we're not going to allow that okay okay then i have nothing
for all right um mr thompson could you give us an idea how long you think you would take
maybe five minutes if it's five minutes we will gladly take your testimony thank you very much
thank you uh as i said my name is edward thompson i am here representing myself i am an attorney
i am also along with my wife who spoke for the public uh one of the co-owners of 530 south 8th
street which is an immediately uh adjacent property um to the property at issue um i'm
to go ahead and try and share my screen um not but there's there's somebody can help you yeah
So, I mean, told I need to raise my hand to be made co host, so I can share my. Okay.
And now, what's the attorney's name?
Edward top set.
Doreen, this is Ian. I believe he's logged in under Jordana Greenwald.
Yes. Yeah, that's sorry. It's my wife. Thank you.
It's okay.
Join the panelists.
Thank you. Thank you.
Okay. I am now sharing my screen. And this is actually one of their exhibits. It is their supplemental exhibits that for the rehearing that they submitted for May 19th.
I'm using this because I want to make it clear where I live.
That building that you see immediately to the left of the structure there with the two little windows up there and the big window there, that's a depiction of my home.
That's where I woke up this morning.
That's where I'm going to bed tonight.
And I've done the same for the last 19 years where I've lived there.
Those two little windows at the top, that's my bedroom.
And the big window underneath that, that is my living room.
And if you if you look next to it, this is their depiction of the property.
I would like to point out that, as depicted, it doesn't quite reflect the density because the vantage point from this would be inside the Bradford.
There is no grass sitting out in the front across the street.
This would have to be this vantage point is like 25 feet with inside the Bradford.
I'd also like to then, if you look at how they've depicted my home, well, what's going to be next to my home?
that's on the next page uh my home my my living room and my dining room is on the second floor
and if you go to their plan on the second floor in the southeast uh the southeast corner which is
right next to my house um is a kitchen it is a commercial kitchen that will be serving a
cafeteria and it will be serving an auditorium um suffice to say this is why we have zoning a lot
people have come and a lot of people have talked about the children but i have children and my
children sleep in this house and my children live in this house and for the fire concerns and the
noise concerns i respectfully ask that we not have a commercial kitchen sharing a wall with my living
room and my dining room the second point is you look up on the third floor what's going to be next
to my children's room a second grade classroom i would respect i i love my children and they've
both been through second grade. I've lived there for 19 years. My older son is 13 and my younger
son is nine. They were both born and raised here. They are also Jewish. And they celebrate these
holidays and they get a Jewish education. We go to a different synagogue. I would like to point
out that if this was my own synagogue, I would still be opposed to it because it doesn't need
to be adjacent to my wall. It doesn't need to have a second grade classroom sitting next to my son's
bedroom it doesn't need to have a second grade classroom sitting next to my bed sitting next to
my bedroom it doesn't need to have a commercial kitchen wall to wall with my living room and my
dining room that's why bringing it back to the zoning code that this is supposed to be a detached
structure and that's what it's about it shouldn't be it should be a detached structure it should not
be wall to wall with my family and my home as an adjacent structure um i'm gonna scroll down again
Here, you can actually this is probably a more accurate representation of what you will see in the street and the density, and you can see my little home sitting here next to this at that window from my kitchen that I look out.
I can see the street and you've had people touch base on the traffic issues and the noise issues, but this actually shows the left hand turn lane how quickly that turns into a left hand turn lane.
I'd like to point out the 47 bus runs down there. The city of Philadelphia's website describes the 47 bus as the busiest bus in the city. That's true. It runs every 8 to 12 minutes, and it has to stay in the right lane directly across because it drops passengers off on the right lane.
It can't get into the left lane to move around the traffic that would be here also because it's a left-hand turn only lane.
I'd also like to speak about the agreement that was just referenced. There are accessory uses in that agreement, and I'm going to put it up here for everyone to see what my neighbor Sean testified to is actually exactly accurate to clarify that objection that was made.
says there shall be no outdoor amplified or loudspeaker music on the property or any evening
after 8 p.m. We're not talking about indoor amplified music. This is a limitation on outdoor.
Well, I share a wall. I just showed. I share a wall. My living room and my dining room and my
children's bedroom, my bedroom, all share that wall. And the limitations on outdoor amplified
or loudspeaker music, which when you see that there's no limitation referencing on indoors
at there. And there's limitation outdoor space. We roll down and this is the limits on the type
of activities that we're talking about. And it does say that it's a parochial style private school.
that we're talking about and it does say that it's a parochial style private school um but it
also refers to accessory uses accessory uses as permitted by the zoning code which says no parties
or celebrations and the non-rest past 8 p.m except so first of all we're going up we're allowing
amplified music up till 8 p.m wall to wall with my property there's an annual fundraising banquet
that's going to go after 8 p.m uh annual week-long celebration of the holiday of suku uh which also
includes outdoor activities and indoor celebrations of all jewish holidays my family celebrates these
holidays too in a residential setting and at our synagogue um they are a joyous affair they are not
quiet and there's there's there's a number of them many of them last eight days uh passover is eight
days hanukkah is eight days sukkot is eight days the time period between russia shana yom kippur
is 10 days we're up to 34 days of celebrations wall to wall with a commercial kitchen to my home
I'd also like to point out in the in the next they do. They do say no liquor shall be sold in any portion of the property, but the school reserves the right to serve liquor on the property.
Now we are wall to wall with a commercial kitchen serving alcohol to a cafeteria and a large 200 purse auditorium.
This is exactly why we have a zoning code, because of these accessory uses and a commercial kitchen that protects property owners like myself, 19-year resident, homeowner of Philadelphia, family of four, two Jewish kids who love their faith.
But as I said, even if this was our own synagogue, we would oppose this.
I'll conclude by saying it should be a detached property.
That's what educational facilities are zoned for, is to be a detached property.
we've had lots and lots of people come up here and speak in favor of it not one of them said
why it needs to be attached to my home it should be a detached property it should be if they're
going to build this project it should be built to code and that is why i'm in opposition to this
project as thank you thank you very much you have any questions
yes all right um mr bonnie you have any questions
no i just wanted to let you know i was here i thought okay you're going to ask me a question
all right good all right but it's up thank you so i i think where we stand now i think we should
take closing arguments in planning planning all right planning is actually going to hold for a
letter okay um we should take closing arguments right how how much time do we go to give them
for this i would say not much because given our schedule well how about two weeks
written that's what i'm saying written closing argument arguments how much longer how
when do we want to have it in is what i'm saying
what's that two weeks is fine two weeks and then the week after we'll
We'll bring it in for a vote.
Give me a date.
We'll do it on a Wednesday.
Leonard, do you have anything you want to?
August 12th would be two weeks, so it would be the 19th.
The 19th, we'll vote on that at 9.30 a.m.
And thank you all.
Thanks for everyone who's been here several times,
and we appreciate everybody's input, okay?
We're going to take a five-minute break as people exit,
so then we'll get set up for our next case, okay?
So we're back.
So MI 2026-000-000272-118-Hilcrest, Dawn Tangrady is the attorney, Sean Whalen is also here, and also Leonard Reuter.
Did we get Dawn of time?
Oh, okay.
Dawn? Oh, okay.
Thank you.
good morning counsel good morning could you please state your name and spell it for this
stenographer? Sure. Dawn Tancredi. That's D-A-W-N. Last name is T-A-N-C-R-E-D-I. Do you swear or affirm to
tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? Yes. Mr. Whalen, could you please state
your name and spell for this stenographer? Sean Whalen, W-H-A-L-E-N. Right. Do you swear or affirm
to tell the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth yes i do and uh mr reuter thank you may
please the board leonard f reuter r-e-u-t-e-r senior attorney city of philadelphia you swear
or affirm to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth i do um um
dawn i understand you have three witnesses am i correct yes and i have two available today
Hi, Mr. Chair. I'd have James Henry and Shandor Zalais.
Okay. Why don't we start with your first witness?
Thank you. I would call James Henry.
James Henry is coming in as a panelist.
james henry has been promoted good morning sir could you please state your name and spell it
for this phonographer yes james henry j-a-m-e-s h-e-n-r-y all right do you swear or affirm to
tell the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth yes counsel thank you and
may I share my screen please
okay are you able to see that james yes okay all right thank you and um james could you
please state your name for the record? James Henry. Okay, and where do you work?
Ruggiero Plant Land Design. And what is your background and training? I am a
professional land surveyor. I've been licensed in the Commonwealth of
Pennsylvania since 2001. I'm also a licensed surveyor in three other states.
okay and are you a member of any organizations with um related to survey i'm sorry you broke
up a little bit there i i believe you said am i a member of any organizations yes the
pennsylvania society of land surveyors and then some other you know trade
groups that are um related to the industry chairman if if i may i'm willing to stipulate
his credentials and we don't need to go they all have to stipulate that he's an expert surveyor
but counselor get here okay thank you yes i would um ask the board to recognize mr henry as an expert
in surveying and maps okay thank you okay i'll proceed uh mr henry did you have a chance to
review materials and prepare a report in this case? Yes, I did. And bringing the
board's attention to tab number three in the materials, is this a copy of the
report that you prepared? Or do you recognize this? Yeah, yeah, that was a
letter I prepared for Mr. Dingfield back in November of 2022. Okay, and could you
tell the board what you prepared here and what your letter states? So it's
basically reviewing documentation from some surveys that were prepared by my
firm which was known as Ritter and Plant back in 2013 where they had visited the
site and prepared you know surveys and maps to understand the relationship
between the the stream in question the 200-foot setback as it relates to the
Wissahickon Watershed Overlay. I had gone in back in 2022 at the request of Mr.
Um, I had gone in back in 2022 at the request of Mr. Dingfield to, to review that information,
um, and then prepare, you know, my own survey and documentation of, of the situation.
Bringing the board's attention to tab number four in the materials, do you recognize this?
Yes, this was, um, so this was taking the survey that was done in 2013,
by my predecessor at the firm, and we had overlaid their information, which is in red,
onto the zoning site plan that was submitted for the 118 Hillcrest property.
And could you describe the radius on this plan, both the red radius and the black radius?
So, the red radius is the 200-foot setback from the bank of the stream, which is located
on the other side of Hillcrest Avenue on the Arboretum property, where the stream enters
a culvert indicated by, at the bottom of the page there, you can see it labeled headwall.
Now this is upside, the reason this is upside down is because of the plan orientation.
We wanted to make sure everything was lined up.
our plan had had a north going up this zoning plan has north down with the street at the bottom so
that's that's the reason for the upside down writing but anyway um so it says head head wall
survey located and then coming from that there's an arrow um dimension line that says 200 foot
setback from regulated water course and that's the uh the bold dashed red arc
okay could you describe what is within the red arc on the proposed plans
well it looks like the proposed improvements uh are indicated within that arc
and taking your attention to
the next page of exhibit four could you just describe what this page is as well
Yeah, this is essentially the same overlay, but with a broader view showing the headwall of the stream, the red dashed arc that I mentioned before.
The zoning plan is in black writing, and then you can also show on here the outfall of the stream, which is located to the right of the plan where there is a second arc.
So that would be the arc of the 200 foot setback where the stream daylights at the other end of the culvert and then becomes a stream again.
And do you know where the black arc on the approved plan was drawn from?
No, I don't. I didn't prepare that plan, so I can't speak to that.
okay are you familiar with atlas philadelphia atlas yes yes and what is it uh it's basically
a city's uh gis mapping system to um you know look up various property information anything from
you know property owners to zoning information um you know i believe there's also some different
tabs in there for, you know, voting districts and things like that. It's basically a geographic
information system that the city has various information available. And taking your attention
to this screenshot from Atlas that I did submit as additional materials to the board and council
yesterday do you recognize this screenshot yep yeah that's your typical uh atlas screenshot with
you know the the uh just standard mapping as the background with building footprints and
and roads road names things like that and does this screenshot show 118 hillcrest avenue
yeah i think that um i can't quite read it but it looks like it's it's basically so where that
indication that um that blue arrow is should be the 118 hillcrest property as indicated by the
the label on the left and does this screenshot show the stream
yeah so the blue the blue line would indicate the location of the stream in this in this particular
the blue line would indicate the location of the stream in this in this particular map layer view
and what does this screenshot show if you know so that's basically the same you're looking at
the same view but it's a different layer of the map which shows an aerial background which um
you know just typically will give you a little bit more context of what's going on because it's
an actual real photograph of the land does this photo show the stream yes you
can see the stream and it's a little bit nuanced because you have to be familiar
with how streams look on aerial photographs but the stream is actually
you can see it's a it's a dark sort of shadow looking area on the opposite side
of Hillcrest Avenue from the blue arrow, you can see where the stream sort of arcs toward
Hillcrest and then disappears. So that's the location of where that head wall and culvert
are, and the stream goes under Hillcrest Avenue at that point.
And taking your attention to this next screenshot, is this the same as the first screenshot that you
saw just uh zoomed out more yeah yeah that's just a broader view of the of the area
and does this imagery screenshot show the stream as well correct yep same thing um on this one
you can actually see the other end of the stream um further east on hillcrest avenue where it
daylights, um, as indicated on the previous map that you had on screen.
Now I'm going to take your attention to the city's swales and stream map,
which is, uh, at, uh, tab number 10 in the materials for the board's
reference. Um, are you familiar with the city's swales and stream map?
yes okay is this a sealed or a stamped map not that I'm aware of is there a
legend on it not that I have seen is there a compass I mean not in this view
i don't know if there is one on the actual overall map does this map show the bank of a stream no
does this map show a culvert no
is there anything else that you could tell us about this map
no other than it's just uh you know sort of a schematic of the of the stream and the um
hillcrest avenue roadway and contour lines on the map indicating the elevations
in your opinion is this map accurate
I don't think it depicts the accurate location of the stream at the location in question.
And is that your opinion based on a reasonable degree of certainty?
another question for you mr henry section 14-510 of the philadelphia zoning code
states that the commission shall maintain the official wissahickon watershed overlay map
what is your understanding of the word maintain when it comes to maps
objection beyond his expertise he's not an expert on the law well then i would ask if if he is
familiar with this um this term with with his experience as maps the board has recognized him
as an expert in surveying and maps i would object on the basis that this has nothing to do with a
map she's asking for a legal interpretation of the code which is solely the purview of l and i and
requires substantial deference.
Yeah, so I agree with that, Dawn.
I have no further questions.
Questions from Sean?
I have no questions, Leonard. No question.
Next witness. Thank you.
Thank you. I would call.
Okay, there are 2 names.
There are two people with the same name, Shandor Zalay.
I'm going to promote the first one.
They're coming in as a panelist.
Thank you.
shane doors la you're allowed to speak good morning could you please stay
i'd say you have two devices on you're gonna have to shut one off okay okay
Sir, could you please state your name and spell for the stenographer?
My name is Chondor Saleh.
Could you spell it, please?
Sir could you spell your name?
Can you hear me?
I think he can hear you.
you might have to go out and come back in
hello yes could you please state your name it's not hearing any audio back okay um what's there
hello we can hear you okay great i can hear you now too thank you all right could you please
spell your name for the stenographer?
Sure. It's S-H-A-N-D-O-R
is the first name.
Saleh is the last name.
S-Z-A-L-A-Y.
Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth,
the whole truth, nothing but the truth?
Please proceed. Counsel?
Thank you.
Mr. Saleh,
could you tell us about your background and training?
I've trained basically in stream restoration and stream management, stormwater management.
I've got degrees from SUNY College of Environmental Science in environmental biology and MS in water resources science from University of Minnesota.
I've done graduate coursework in fluvial geomorphology, which I can also spell that if needed.
and i've been working in consulting could you just tell the board what that really is
yeah sure it's the study of rivers basically and how they move and how they affect the landscape
um so and i've been applying that knowledge and consulting uh in the environmental consulting
business for the last 26 years most of that being in southeastern pennsylvania
I'm also an adjunct professor at Villanova, where I teach a course called River Mechanics
and Engineering, which, again, focuses on fluvial geomorphology.
Chair, in advance of Mr. Saleh's testimony, could I ask for an offer of proof as to relevance
of what he's going to testify to today?
Yeah, why don't, Dawn, could you answer that, please?
So, Mr. Shandor today will be talking about streams and he's going to be talking about
how we determine the starting point in this case.
He's going to be discussing what the stream is and why the starting point is where we've
measured from.
I I guess i'm confused chair because I thought that that's what James Henry just testified to so if I may go ahead so so Mr. Henry did testify and he talked about the measurement right he he did the measurements and the difference here is that Mr.
is talking about why we picked this starting point across the street.
Across the street.
I mean, the city will stipulate to his expertise in stormwater management and the other thing that I can't pronounce the flu fluvial geomorphology.
Exactly. So we're, we're fine with that. I mean, I guess.
we'll reserve objection and just see where this testimony goes it sounds a little duplicative
well that's not the right word but it duplicates the prior testimony a little bit somewhat but um
i believe the difference is that mr henry really prepares measurements i mean he and and he
prepared the measurement based on um all right what's why don't we do this why don't we get
into the testimony. If there's something you disagree with, we'll take a look at it then.
Okay. So why don't we start with this? Okay. Okay. So Mr. Zalay, are you familiar with the
Wissahickon Watershed Overlay? I am. And what is it? So it's a, my understanding is it's part of
the zoning code. An overlay district imposes additional restrictions in a particular geographic
In this case, for the Wissahickon watershed, the idea is to impose more stringent land development and land disturbance regulations with the explicit goal of reducing erosion, reducing sedimentation, and generally reducing and controlling ecological degradation and maintaining water quality within the Wissahickon Creek watershed.
And do you know how long this Wissahickon Watershed overlay has been around?
Yeah, so my understanding is that it was adopted in the 1970s, was based on a 1973 study of the watershed and then adopted shortly thereafter.
Is the purpose today the same as it was in the 1970s?
okay um and does the overlay contain a buffer it does yeah so section it's uh one four dash five
one zero um what this does is it prohibits the construction of impervious ground cover
within 200 feet of the bank of a stream or within 50 feet of the center line of a swale within the
district and are you familiar with 118 hillcrest avenue i am can you describe the property
it's a undeveloped lot off of hillcrest avenue it's a large kind of open space at the moment
grass covered as you can see in the photo with occasional trees and for the
board's reference I'm sharing what's listed as the site photos at tab number
eight within the materials and Mr. Zollet are you familiar with the
surrounding area yes i am and did you prepare a report in this case i did
could you tell the board um what your report states um take us through it what you what you
studied what you reviewed so excuse me and for the board's preference a copy of the report is
included in the materials at tab number six so i was asked to look at the applicability of the
section the over the setback section that we just discussed in the which was a hick and watershed
overlay district to the stream and the property in question so there are a couple of different
questions. One had to do with whether the feature that we're all calling a stream in the Morris
Arboretum is indeed a stream as to the definition in the Philadelphia Zoning Code, which you can
see there, it's any watercourse or portion of a watercourse which drains an area of 64 or more
acres in the lower was second watershed and it's also excludes things like embedded culverts
and so i was asked to essentially weigh in on whether the feature um that we're calling a
stream is indeed a stream per the zoning code which in my opinion it is and i can get into
And I can get into the details of that, but it meets the definition of a stream. And then I was asked to evaluate the applicability of the or the application of the 200 foot setback to that stream, including, as you mentioned, Don, where the offset should be taken and then matters relating to the trajectory of the stream over time and whether that's changed relative to the mapping that is contained within
the details of that but it meets the definition of a stream and then i
uh the streams and swales map as you have you as you've called it
okay so mr zelay uh you determined that the starting point for the 200 foot setback
is at this stream at the edge of the culvert across from 118 hill crest is that correct
perhaps. Okay. And do you know if Mr. Henry's plans measured from the same location that you've
identified as the starting point? Yes, I believe they do. Okay. And do you know if this stream has
ever moved? Well, you know, streams do move over time. So I don't, I can't say that I know if it's
ever moved but what i what i did do and document in this report is i was able to locate photographs
of the stream aerial photographs of the stream dating to 1959 which could clearly depict and
you'll note like there's a pronounced bend in the stream that sort of ensures that the stream is
going to cross hill crest in a perpendicular manner and that bend is clearly visible there's
aerial photograph there in the 1959 photo and that's indeed the same trajectory that i observed
in the field and that i observed uh in current day aerial photography that was reviewed so
in the last you know 60 70 odd years it does not appear to have moved appreciably
from its current location.
I would ask you, are you familiar with the cities, streams, and swales map?
I am, yeah.
I actually inspected the map in person at the Philadelphia Planning Commission offices,
I believe, in December of 2022.
and is this map stamped or sealed no can you tell who made the map
uh i don't recall if there was a signature on the map itself i i don't recall that there was
in your professional opinion is the map accurate there's a couple different elements to this
in terms of accuracy. But with respect to the stream segment that we're referring to,
the streams and swales map does not appear to depict the stream in a manner consistent with
the 1959 aerial photograph or the present day aerial photograph or with my direct observations
of the stream. Specifically, you do not see that characteristic bend that takes the stream
underneath Hillcrest Avenue where it sort of bends towards 118 Hillcrest.
Instead, you see it continue like straight sort of due east into a culvert
that's some distance away from Hillcrest Avenue.
So that's a depiction that's not consistent with the 1959 Aero photograph,
the current day Aero photograph, or what I've observed in the field.
And does this map show the bank of a stream?
it shows the it indicates a stream um with a blue line i don't know that it indicates a bank of a
stream specifically and are your opinions today based on a reasonable degree of certainty yes
yes a high degree of certainty i have uh no further questions questions from other council here
Mr. Zillet, are you aware of when the city's streams and swales map was created?
I believe it was created in 1973.
So it's your opinion today that it was incorrect at the time it was created?
it was incorrect at the time it was created that's my opinion yeah okay and that there
That's my opinion.
really hasn't been any change in the stream it's just that if for instance you had done this work
in the 50s and then did this work today you would find essentially the same characteristics
correct okay and then whoever created this map did so incorrectly yeah it was might have been
an approximate you know like depiction of the stream it wasn't consistent with the observations
that i that were consistent with the aerial photographs in 59 or current day yeah are you
familiar with when the planning commission adopted the use of this map i don't have a specific date
in front of me uh but i believe it was consistent with the adoption of the water watershed overlay
district which i believe was you know immediately or sometime short shortly after the completion of
the study in 1973. okay so so you believe it okay you believe it was sometime in the 1970s
yes we're talking 50 years ago i think we can hedge by five years or so yeah
Yeah, agreed. Thank you. Are you aware of any challenge to the legislation in adopting this map or the creation of this map?
I am not specifically aware, no.
Okay. Thank you very much. I have nothing further.
Council, this is your last witness for the day.
Dawn. Yes, Mr. Chair, I have no further witnesses for today.
Do you have a presentation? Yes, Chairman, I can actually finish. I have two witnesses,
both of whom will be very quick, and they're both on Zoom. Sure. I'd finish. Just for clarification,
though, Ms. Tancredi, you did also indicate Mr. Shusterman as a witness. Are you intending to
ask the board to bifurcate again to allow Mr. Schusterman to testify at another date?
Yes, I would like Mr. Schusterman to be able to testify at the next available date,
and if Mr. Whalen would like to present. Let me ask the question relative to that.
What if she just received a written report from him? Would you both be okay with that or not?
I would accept a written report from him.
This continuation of hearings actually creates a very heavy prejudice on the property owner, whom I represent.
So what I would recommend is that you could get a report from him, submit it to everyone, and we'll leave it at that.
Is that all right?
I could do that.
And then what we would do, too, is just take written summaries from all three of you.
But very briefly, then, could the city just ask what the scope of Mr like what's Mr Schusterman going to testify about? He's my understanding is that he's a community person, not an expert witness, per se, but I'm not I'm not clear on what he's testifying about.
So he would be testifying about the history of the watershed overlay and the spirit of
the overlay. And also I had indicated to counsel in advance that we were preserving a challenge
to the actions in this case as a violation of the ERA. So he would talk about that.
Sure. This city's okay with him presenting a written report on his views of the history of it. I mean, the city's already provided testimony on that. We would have a bit of an issue. We'll probably reserve an objection for him testifying about violations of the environmental rights amendment. That's a legal argument that if you want to make it to the board, that's fine and the city can respond to it, but that's he's
he can't be testifying it as an expert on the law or the constitution of the
of the Commonwealth, but, uh, right. I would say, cause so we're, we're going to be okay,
taking a written report from them. Right. And then response, your, your summaries would be
go back. And even that point, you could make a comment relative if she tried to do that. Right.
That's fine. Okay. Yes, chairman. I, as long as we can reserve any objection to the report,
Right, right. And then again, in light of before making a legal argument.
and then again in in light of before making uh legal argument do you want legal argument uh
following this hearing you want just witnesses now or well the legal arguments will be in the
summaries at the end right okay all right um so why don't we do your witnesses now
certainly right and we'll go from there okay all right thank you very much uh by the way we we go
So, Mr. Chair, I would just like to point out that I know that you're on similar and Serena Eisenberg are in the audience, and that they would like to officially intervene in this matter.
And the board, the chair can let us know how you would like them to do that.
I don't know. I mean, we're, we're almost done. I mean, I don't.
it's also an appeal yeah you know right this case is you know so uh we we won't do that we won't do
that they would just like to intervene um with the appellants and and there's no additional
evidence to be added for that i i would find it highly objectionable at this stage yeah yeah
and so do i i mean why don't we why don't we move on you have two witnesses sean uh yes i have two
witnesses both of whom will be very quick all right why don't we move okay uh chairman i would
call uh christopher blatney christopher christopher brattney is coming in as the panelist now thank
you you're welcome hi i've uh hi good morning could you please state your name and spell for
the stenographer yes christopher blatney um last name is spelled b's and boy l-a-t-n-e-y
all right do you swear or affirm to tell the truth whole truth nothing but the truth
Ansel?
Thank you very much.
Mr. Blatney, you're here as the owner of the property, correct?
And can you briefly describe the property to us?
Just a residential lot that was purchased years ago with the intent to build a home on it.
It was then sold to another party who subdivided the property and also wanted to develop homes on the lot.
Ended up buying the lot back from him and proceeded to work on design to build a single family home for the property as originally purchased.
Okay. And did you retain any experts when you started to proceed towards the design of the home?
Yes. I mean, I'm not a design person, so I hired engineering professionals to help with the development of the land to make sure it met the requirements for zoning in order to move a project forward. So, yes, hired engineering and other counsel to help with that.
Okay. And is Michael Galante the name of that engineer?
Yes, it is.
Thank you.
Um, and if a single family house is not allowed on this property, are you aware of any other
use that you could put this property to objection relevance? I asked whether he's aware of any other
use that he could put the property to. No. Thank you. Um, I have no further questions.
Dawn, do you have questions?
Briefly.
Mr. Blatney, are you aware that there's never been any development on this property?
I'm not aware of that, but it doesn't look like there is.
And are you the owner of this property, or is this part of a self-directed IRA?
I own the property in an IRA, correct.
i have no further questions leonard next witness thank you very much mr blatney thank you i would
call michael galante okay while he's coming on uh mr tancredi mr reuter do you want me to walk
through mr galante's credentials and experience or would you just accept him as a licensed engineer
in the state of penn state of pennsylvania i mean the city stipulates to his expertise
i would stipulate as well okay thank you i do not see michael galante in a virtual audience
I do not see Michael Galante in a virtual audience.
He texted me that he was on.
Galante, G-A-L-A.
G-A-L-A-N-T-E.
Jared, do you mind if I try calling you real quick?
Yeah, that person is not in the audience.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Why don't you log out because you can see the, yeah, usually, he said you can see it
Sean could you pull the mic closer yeah we're going to figure that out once once you finish
okay all right and you know all three you'll have an input into that
are we still waiting on michael galante we are
Okay, thank you.
Thank you.
Do you think they'll see all of us?
It should be, plus he sees us, I don't understand, but it looks to me like an angel, but it
And hear us, but not actually be visible.
Right.
so while while we're sitting here um lynn the date we gave uh the last group
not there's what one we would though let's let's figure out when we were vote if we could work
backwards from that excuse me michael galante has been promoted all right thank you thank you
good morning sir good morning hi could you please state your name is bill for the sonographer
yeah michael galante m-i-c-h-a-e-l-g-a-l-a-n-t-e right do you swear referring to tell the truth
the whole truth nothing but the truth yes counsel uh thank you mr galante while you were working on
getting uh involved in this hearing uh counsel all agreed to accept you and stipulate to your
The council all agreed to accept you and stipulate to your expertise and experience as an engineer and a licensed engineer.
expertise.
So if you could, please just state where you practice and confirm that you are a licensed engineer in the state.
Yeah, I'm a licensed engineer in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, state of New Jersey.
I practice. My office address is 334 West Front Street, Media, PA.
Thank you very much.
19063. Yep.
And Mr. Galante, what is your involvement with 118 Hillcrest?
I got involved in 2020, around that time, probably a little bit before that, and been working with the owner on developing a plan to develop the property for a residential home.
Okay. And did you ultimately develop a plan for a residential home?
And were you the zoning applicant to license and inspections for that home?
And could you walk me through that process, please?
At the time, when I first started working on the project, it was before, I think it predated the Eclipse system.
Because every time, at the time, you had to go actually into the building, meet with the planning department, go through the plan, and obtain their sign-off on the plan.
And over that time, I remember meeting with the planner at the time, Keith Davis, who actually forwarded me.
We worked on the overlay district.
At one point, I received a mapping and their location on where they saw the 200-foot overlay.
And that's how we developed it on the plan.
And then over time, if you want me to just go through the rest of the history, the plan was submitted to the city over time.
it was clear that the 200-foot line was on the property. The driveway was considered impervious
surface. At some point during that process, permeable pavers were not considered impervious
surface, and therefore, we were able to obtain our zoning approval. Okay, so Mr. Galante, is it
fair to characterize the process as a lengthy one with significant back and forth between yourself
as the applicant and the reviewers at l and i i think yes i would say yes 100 okay and
chair i'm going to share my screen quickly
mr galante are you seeing a site plan on the screen yes uh is this the approved plan that
you received from the city that is the stamp plan from the planning commission correct
okay and uh in here there's a blue arrow with a note uh can you read that note for me please
no new impervious within 200 feet of waterfront is met per pwd's approval of the porous asphalt
driveway and that says kd kd yeah keith davis kd is keith davis i believe and pc pc um i believe
that's philadelphia planning commission some language there okay and mr galante uh how did
you learn of this 200 foot setback arc that's right here uh from from i learned that from
I received a map from the city where they actually utilized their available mapping and sent me where they depicted the line.
Okay, so this was not a line that you created or came up with in any way, correct?
It was in conjunction with the City of Philadelphia Planning Department.
Okay. And other than get just receiving that line from that arc from them, not a line, uh, from the city, did you have any input or, or feedback with the city as to where that line belonged or where it went?
Um, I've generally just, you know, my recollection was back in 2019, 2020, that, that time, um, as when I first developed the line, um, it was, it was based on the map that was provided.
okay so you you fully relied upon materials that were provided to you from lni that is correct
and ultimately you received a zoning permit and had final stamped approved plans from the city
correct correct thank you very much i have no further questions mr sangray do you have any
questions? Don, you're muted. Hello? Sorry about that. Do you have any questions? I do. Mr. Galante, you stated that you received a map from the city.
Mr. Galante, you stated that you received a map from the city indicating where you should start your measurement from?
It actually depicted the 200-foot line as they determined it based on their records.
And do you have a copy of that map?
Could you share that with us?
um i could i don't know if i have i'm not on my computer but i could forward the email
to uh miss sean and he could share it yeah the objection i haven't seen that before so
i i would just ask sean do you know if that map is different than the map that's been
presented in evidence as part of the exhibits i do not
i i haven't seen this email so i'm not sure i've only seen documents so i'm not sure
what specifically is attached to this email okay mr galante is the map marked up or is it just a
copy of the city swales and streams map no it's marked up okay i would like to see a copy of that
and Sean this was sent for the record
Sean this was sent to you on April
17th 2023
so you should have a copy somewhere
Did you send it? Mr. Galanta sending it right now?
All right, it's sent.
Chair, I haven't received it yet. I'm happy to do this as a post hearing submission or how you want this like.
Okay, so it's Tancredi's, yes.
Donna, are you still there?
Yes, I am.
So the question would be where I was looking at, what's the date that we're
going to vote on the other one?
Find me.
Yeah, but what I want to do is what is the vote date?
August 26th.
August 26th, we were looking to vote on this.
So the question is working backwards. Can we accomplish what we need to accomplish to get to that? Right. So what do you want to talk submission date? Submission date would be August 12th for her witness report. Same as his. And then August 19th. Yeah. If he's going to do that. And then August 19th for the closings or, you know, anything like that. Does everybody agree to that?
uh mr chair i would have to check with mr schusterman i know that in general the next
listing date would have been further out than that and i'm not i'm certain what his vacation plans are
so i don't know if two weeks is enough time i would have to check with him well okay um
i i i i think i i think if possible i mean he didn't show up today right we we thought he was
going on right and so we're going to give him a date and i i would want him to adhere to that date
if it's not possible i'll reach back out to the board if there's
accentuating circumstances but i would would very much appreciate if we get him
to do that okay that way we can come to some closure when we get to uh the vote date okay
Okay. Thank you very much. We'll three agree. Yes, I agree. I do have further questions for Mr. Galante. Sure, go ahead. Okay. Go ahead. So, Mr. Galante, on the email and the document that will be forwarded to me, you're stating that that shows you where the starting point was for your measurement of the 200 feet?
Yeah, it took an overlay of the city, I guess you call that, like that yellowish map with the contours on it. Then it took a GIS map of the parcels, and it also took a depiction of our plan, and the city planner overlaid it for us.
Okay, so you did not do the overlay yourself?
The city planner provided it to me.
And then we then, in turn, added it to our plan.
Okay. And as an engineer, do you have any duty to make sure that that's accurate?
Well, based on, and well, it was, it was multiple.
Well, it was multiple interpretations back and forth of where we would have thought that line would have been based on the mapping that we have.
So I would say that there was a lot of due diligence that went in to actually verifying the accuracy of that line.
You said there were multiple interpretations. Did you have a different interpretation?
well you know you would take the map that's provided by the city that's in their records
and check your 200 foot distance and see where that resides on your property uh i don't recall
every back and forth remember we're in the office at the time so i would go up to the office bring
the plan try to overlay my plan based on that maps that they have and then eventually got to
the point where they just provided me where they said the overlay should be and that's what you
have depicted in front of you in the zoning the approved zoning plan um and who came up with the
multiple interpretations mr tancredi i apologize for interrupting um leonard believes he found the
map that uh mr galante might be referring to i'm gonna just share my screen this i believe was
already testified to uh under keith davis's testimony so i'm if i can share my screen and
mr galante could either confirm or not confirm uh that this is the same map that he's referring to
yes thank you i have to be promoted first okay
somebody's promoting this already happened okay
mr chairman while we wait we should probably put the time of the vote we just said the date of the
vote it's 9 30. yeah yep 9 30. thank you thank you um if nobody objects i'll just ask mr galanti
uh can you see this uh document that i'm sharing on my screen yes is that the map you're talking
about um he generally yeah i mean there's a um do you have the one i just emailed
it's pretty much the same interpretation i think that the map you may be referring to does not have
the green yes it doesn't have the the map i'm referring to does not have the uh the the aerial
imagery on the back oh i see okay yeah so it's not the exact map i emailed over but you've received
a map basically like this similar yes and and that map that you got showed the boundary where
the magenta circle is yes okay um mr henkrey i'm sorry i i interrupted if you had any further
questions oh thank you so uh mr galanta you mentioned there were multiple interpretations
where did the multiple interpretations come from well it would be overlays based on the ones that
keith davis provided so um you know i may overlay it and i may interpret it at one location and
keith may overlay interpret at a different and ultimately it's based upon um you know the the
available you know i think keith had a you know gis data he had the map overlay and he took our
plan and i think his interpretation uh would it would have been the one that we were taking because
he is they are the city planning department miss tancredi just to help you i did finally receive
the email that mr galante just forwarded so i have the map if you want to see it that he's referring
to you may share your screen okay and you could send that to me by email when you get the chance
of course i'll circulate it around and and i would indicate that there are two versions this is not
exactly the same map but i think we're all showing very much the same things that were in the city's
exhibits that were previously produced and that i believe mr davis had previously testified about
okay so all right the screen the map is up mr galante quickly yes is this the map that you were
just describing that yes and you received this map from city planning city planning provided
this to me in an email correct and this is the map that you ultimately used to develop the plan
Yeah. Developed the plan that became the stamped approved plan. Yes. Okay. Thank you. Sorry,
Ms. Tancredi. Go ahead. And Mr. Galante. Yes. You deal with maps regularly in your work?
All day. Yes. Okay. And are they usually stamped or sealed or signed?
or signed? Not always. When you have a zoning map, it's not always stamped and sealed. Zoning maps
not always when you have a
are depictions of where zoning lies on a plan, and this is a zoning style map. It falls within
the zoning ordinance. I don't typically see these maps signed and sealed, like a zoning
interpretation map, to be honest with you. So when you deal with maps, do you know who prepared
the maps? They'll have a name of
whoever prepared it, whether it was, say you're in the city of Philadelphia, it could be the city
planning commission. If you're in a certain town, it'll list the engineer
or the planner that prepared it, but they're not necessarily stamped
and sealed. Is this particular plan,
the city's swales and streams map, stamped or sealed?
No, it's not.
is it signed no but it was provided in an email correspondence from the city which i would take as
um in in my professional opinion i would i would accept that coming from them it's not it wasn't
handed to me over the counter it was emailed from an email uh that basically stated you know this is
the um you know the overlay essentially so because you received this map in an email perhaps from
keith davis or someone else that doesn't mean that that person prepared the plan though correct
um well they would did that i guess there's i don't i mean as far it's coming from keith
he's the planner that i was dealing with at the time uh and for him to send it to me i would i
assume he at least over took a look at it before he sent it and and verified its accuracy chair
i would briefly object to the forum i believe miss tancredi is talking about the square inlay
in the center of the map which is the representation i i agree she is and i
believe mr galante is talking about the entire uh image that he received
i'm talking about the city's swales and streams map um as the question is whether mr galante
knows who prepared that map
um i am unaware who actually prepared that specific map okay is there a compass on the map
um yeah i i don't i'm trying to see here isn't that the end there's a north arrow
yeah north arrow yeah can you show us where that is it's right on the screen here
right here in the bottom right corner yeah okay okay that's not on this city's
yellow streams and swales map is it
Objection what we're looking at right now is simply a very small excerpt of the city streams and swales map, not the entire thing. So we have no idea what the representation is as to whether there is, or is not a legend, a compass or anything like that.
The map itself was here at the 1st hearing, and this was never raised or no questions came up about it at that point. Well, the question is for Mr. as to whether or not he knows whether on the city's streams and swales map that if there is a compass.
I would have to get a copy of the entire map. I don't have it in front of me right now. I mean, I'm going off of the various maps that were used to develop the 200-foot buffer, and it was ultimately provided to me from the planning department.
Just like a zoning map would be provided from the planning department, just like any map would be provided from the planning department, and we would use that to proceed with our plans.
What were the various maps that you received?
We, well, we had that stream map, the map that you see there with, it's like a USGS map.
And then we have this GIS map that's behind it.
And then, you know, any other zoning maps that you find online on Atlas, we use them in preparation of plans.
And, you know, I mean, I don't have every single list of every map that I could look at a city.
but if you go to atlas you can find pretty much a lot of different maps that the city prepares
and did you
corroborate or did you find any discrepancy between the city's swells and stream map and the atlas map
the the atlas with the city the atlas the atlas map is is essentially a zoning map that stream
map yet to get from if i recall you had to actually physically go to city planning to
get to see a copy of it um and they essentially would do the interpretation and and the wissa
And they essentially would do the interpretation. And the Wissahick and Overlay District, you have the 200-foot buffer from a stream, and I believe it's a 50-foot buffer from a ditch or a culvert, correct? Isn't that the zoning there?
hick and overlay did
I'm asking the questions.
I don't know. I mean, I'm sorry. I don't necessarily have an answer for that one.
Okay. So you don't know if there was a discrepancy between the Atlas map and the city's
swales and streams map? Well, I don't know. I don't know if the Atlas map, I'd have to go back
and look. It's been, you know, since five, six years ago. And like I said, when we as an engineer
prepare a set of plans and we go in for a zoning interpretation, which is essentially what this
was it was a zoning interpretation we rely on the professionals in the in those positions to
tell us you know this is this is our interpretation this is where the line goes
mr glanta you did mention the atlas map did you measure the stream from the atlas map to this
particular property at 118 Hillcrest? We looked at aerials, we looked at different mapping,
and ultimately this is the map that governs the one that we got from the city. I mean, that's
really, I mean, I look, when we design plans, we look at multiple different maps, but when it comes
down to interpretation from a zoning standpoint and a buffer and the city gives us a map that
says here's your buffer that's what we went by did you do a physical tour of this location
did you walk around the area to look for a stream i i perform site visits um you know i i generally
stay within our property boundaries um and ultimately i can't say exactly where i walked
when I was at my site visit Council I have no further questions all right thank you um
is there any questions to the board by the way okay so why don't we talk off our dates do you
have all three dates to give them yeah again it's but I just want to say um Council can you make
sure that that map is submitted as part of the record because i just forwarded it around everybody
thank you all right um the date we have is her the report from her witness would be august 12th
right closings august 19th right and then the vote at 9 30 on august 26th and everything's closed
here other unless unless there's a discrepancy with reports okay but mr chair is close what was
the august 17th date there was no august 17th it was august 19th the closings are august 19th
okay thank you and how would you like the submissions submitted do you want them as
exhibits through the uh just by email or
hey sorry this is uh executive director hegarty please submit all exhibits up through
the zba calendar through the portal thank you and i would ask that all the exhibits that we've
submitted be incorporated into the record okay all right i think we already did but the city
would in case we we didn't at the last hearing the city would ask it all of the exhibits that
that Mr. Davis had testified to also be submitted for evidence on the record.
Sure. Thank you.
And like this.
Thank you. And thank the three of you, and hopefully we'll vote on this shortly.
Thank you.
Well, maybe not shortly.
What's it, three weeks?
Is it three weeks?
Oh, four weeks.
Four weeks.
All right.
Thank you.
Thank you very much for your time.
You both did double duty today.
I noticed that both of you were here the whole day.
Yeah, I didn't know what was going to happen on the earlier one.
Right.
okay thanks everyone is there anyone in the audience whose case has not been called
no hands chair all right thank you all see everybody tomorrow morning