So say, like, you know, if Cherry Street is 19 feet wide, how much light is the sign emitting at 10 feet away, for example?
So a couple quick points of clarification there. Cherry Street may be a 19-foot wide street.
Howard, excuse me, did we swear you in?
Yes, you did.
Okay, thank you. Please proceed.
Cherry Street may be a 19-foot wide street, but the distance from building to building is at least 40 feet in that location.
And it appears that the distance across 23rd Street from face of building to face of building is almost 50 feet.
almost 50 feet. The proposed giant signage on average for each of the individual letters
The proposed giant sign...
emits about 300 lumens of light output. As Mr. Clark mentioned earlier, a typical high
definition TV puts out about 1700 lumens of light output, which is almost six times as
much light output as compared to the letter or the proposed signage. What's really important
to understand in relationship to the actual signage is how far that light actually transmits
in foot candle levels. And so when we take a look at that 300 lumens of output, at a distance of
10 feet it actually becomes 0.2 foot candles and at a distance of 20 feet it becomes 0.02 foot
candles and at a distance of 30 feet that light can no longer be measured in terms of actual light
output. So let me add the lumens you're speaking of the 300 lumens is that for the entire
sign G-I-A-N-T-S or is that per letter? That is per letter. They act as individual
letters. They average about 300 lumens per letter. So cumulatively, G-I-A-N-T-S,
that's six times, that's 1,800 lumens? Five, so it's 1,500 lumens, but they don't combine
together. In terms of how far that light actually transmits, they transmit light independent of
each other. Okay, I'm not to interrupt you. I just, do you have, Mr. Clark, do you have
a rendering of what the sign will look like? The signs we're talking about that would
face 21st Street, Cherry Street, and 23rd. 23rd.
Is that it in the lower right-hand corner? Yes, it is. So this is the giant sign in question.
sorry facing 23rd my fault that's facing cherry facing 23rd street is this sign okay all right
now let me get that those are each of those letters illuminated yes
is there a way in which lighting could be behind the letters and not have each letter illuminated
and it would still kind of show the giant sign
but not as prominent as the 1,500 or 1,800 illuminators are?
Was that ever discussed?
I don't know if you know what I'm talking about,
lighting behind those that would, you know,
accentuate the, if that's the correct word, the letters,
but not be as bright as having each letter emanating 300 luminaires?
So, Mr. Chair, I'll give the preliminary answer, and I'll let Howard fill in any gaps.
We have looked at alternate lighting schemes, either backlighting or uplighting,
and what we found is that generally they would likely be perceived as brighter than what we're proposing.
I think Howard's description of each letter pushing out 290 lumens gives the impression that the total light output can be gained from adding all of the letters together, when in fact it's more that each letter is independent.
They each push out 290, and for each letter, once you get to 30 feet away, you can't measure the light coming off of the sign.
Now, I'll turn it over to Howard if you have anything to add with respect to the alternate lighting options.
Yeah, I think it's important to note that Giant is a tenant in another building development,
and they're going into what is essentially, as you can see by the rendering, an all-glass storefront.
So there's really no way to backlit these lights or these proposed signs.
And as Mr. Clark has stated, lighting this signage from the outside actually reflects more light away from the surface than the internally illuminated signs that have a translucent front that cuts down on the amount of light emitted by 50% right away.
Okay, so you can't do backlighting. What about front lighting, where each letter would be illuminated by, I'm not sure what the correct term would be, but if they each had...
You would need to hang some sort of external light onto the face of the building.
You would need to hang some sort of external light onto the face of the building, which is an all-glass facade, so there is no way to attach that lighting to the facade, and it actually, in that case, more light gets reflected away from the signage than the internally illuminated letters.
Okay. All right. Thank you.
um anyone else mr clark because we have we have other hearings we're running way way behind here
okay so uh mr i just wanted to add one more uh comment um you know there was
in conjunction with the legislation to um uh to permit the building to permit the approval
of the north tower in which we're going there was a neighborhood a development agreement
made with, you know, LS&A, interested neighbors, and signage and lighting were addressed in the
agreement. And lighting effects on neighbors, especially across Cherry Street, were addressed.
The concerns were headlights in the parking lot. There were other ambient lighting issues. But then
And also there was a separate section where the neighbors affirmed and, you know, essentially said that they knew that there would be retail tenants and there would be signage.
And I'll just note that there were no objections to illuminated signage, despite the fact that, you know, they did prohibit non-accessory signage.
So certain things were addressed.
This particular issue was not.
And, again, in our opinion, you know, the light is not measurable from the signs at 30 feet away.
Each building that is complaining about the illumination, the building faces are more than 30 feet away.
So, in our opinion, they're really – the signs themselves won't cause an issue,
and the ambient light coming from inside the buildings is going to be, you know, way brighter than these signs will be.
Thank you.
Questions from the board?
Mr. Chair, Mr. Chair, I'm sorry to interrupt. Mr. Raines had been trying to get on,
and I think that he has been able to access the system. So if he has something new and different,
with all due respect, fine. If not, we'd like to move on. Well, he says he has something new.
is he okay okay all right we'll get him on here's that he's having technical difficulties
um he's on my cell phone can you hear him it's nothing but feedback
Steve, try to go ahead.
First of all, I appreciate and my family appreciates the board's consideration.
And I've been sitting here for the last...
So, Chair, I'm going to have to mute them because I can't allow the rest of the members to hear this.
All we're getting is feedback.
You're just being her.
So how about we do this?
Have him mute whatever device he has and then talk through your phone.
All right.
Mute whatever you have, your device, your screen.
I can hear you fine, but when I put you on speaker, there's feedback.
So you've muted yourself.
I will put you on the speaker on my cell phone and see if they can hear you.
All right.
Try that.
Can you hear me now?
Yeah, go ahead.
Yes. Can the rest of the board hear me? Yes. Yes. Okay. First of all, thank you for your
patience. I've been coming out of my skin. All right. Don't get out of your skin yet. We need
you to spell your first and last name and give us your address. Steve, you need to spell your
first name and your last name, and then you'll be... My name is Stephen Rains, R-A-Y-N-E-S.
And your address?
My address is 1845 Walnut Street, 20th floor, Philadelphia, PA, 19103.
Are you representing someone?
I own, my family owns the Westminster Arch Apartments at 23rd and Arch Street.
My father-in-law built it 40 plus years ago.
all right we have uh 90 uh apartments and we have a okay mr wright you have to get to any
new points you want to raise that i didn't raise or the lsna did not raise and i gotta swear you
in quickly he's going to swear you in first i'm sorry you're gonna affirm to tell the truth the
whole truth and nothing but the truth you swear to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing
Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
but the truth? I do.
With all due respect, Mr. Raines, we need you to speak on behalf of yourself and not other neighbors.
We own the apartment building on the corner of 23rd and Art Street.
We have 90 apartments, and we have a nursery school on the first floor.
It's a residential neighborhood.
It is a neighborhood. It's a building that my father-in-law built 40-plus years ago.
With all due respect to Giant and Mr. Clark, I found that to be a very disingenuous presentation,
and I had to bite my lick through the whole thing without being able to unmute myself.
The only reason that we agreed to the increase in the signage from that which is permitted under the variance
is conditioned upon it not being illuminated because illuminated would go right into our
nursery school and go right into affecting 100 residents and completely impact the neighborhood
it's a billboard it's a lit up billboard they want up 17 hours a day they didn't have our
agreement or approval to do it they're selling something and the whole foods on the parkway
is not lit up i don't think they have any problem selling food at the whole foods on the parkway
so they went in for a gigantic sign and they want credit for going down to a smaller sign
which is still very big no one's going to not know where the giant is and they don't need it lit up
17 hours a day glaring into uh impacting a nursery school and 100 residents and turning this into a
billboard and the entire neighborhood association was against it so this is not something that
we're going uh hand in hand with them we are vigorously opposing it okay thank you thank you
all right uh any questions i don't know where i left off any questions from the board
uh yes uh mr chairman from looking at the rendering it looks like the sign is uh
second floor below the second floor between the first and second floor is that correct
yes so if the sign is lit it wouldn't really affect the daycare which is uh closed at night
would it
there's no daycare at night
I believe I no one's answering you Tom but that's correct it's the daycare center it's the
Montessori school it's closing so the lights are on at night not so it really doesn't affect the
school and it's only at the second floor level it wouldn't affect the 30th floor the 15th floor
the 20th floor it wouldn't affect many residents and the building next door with a building
directly across the street, it would. The Montessori school is up at the north end of
the building. There are all apartments directly across from where the sign would be.
Apartments at the first and second floor?
Well, what about the floors above?
Well, surely it would because the radiant light goes up there. There are only, I'm
not sure, I think there are seven or eight floors. I'm not sure if it's even that high.
not a multi-towered building well they could put the fuses on it to have it shine uh downward and
not upward upwards yes sir yes they could mr holliman but they they've proposed this and and
it's they they want the illumination that they want and the terms and conditions and the lsna
agreed to allow them larger signs and frankly agreed to have signs on the south side and the
west side. The west side is really where they need it and want it most of all. If you look on the
rendering that's on the screen, cars coming down 23rd Street, they're not going to see the giant
sign that is being pointed to right now. They won't see that. Coming down Arch Street, they
have to turn there. There's no vehicular traffic going north on 23rd Street. So that size of a
sign is superfluous. Everybody knows where Trader Joe's is. Everybody knows where Whole Foods is.
You know, Giant has their heirloom store on 23rd and Bainbridge.
They've got a tiny sign. Everybody knows where it is.
I'm sorry, but I couldn't find Trader Joe's. It took me a long time.
I know where it is now, but I could not find it.
Well, Mr. Chair, Mr. Holloman, can I add one point of clarification? It's very quickly, very quick.
Just that the signs were characterized as blaring into windows across the street.
Just the signs were characterized as blaring into windows across the street.
Again, as we have testified, at a level of 300 lumens, the light emitted by the sign is not detectable at a distance of 30 feet.
Both building faces across 23rd Street and Cherry Street are in excess of 30 feet away.
Let me ask you this. What is a luminary for the stoplight? Do you know that?
I do not. Howard, do you know typical stoplight illumination numbers?
Unfortunately, I do not. I'll see if I can find them very quickly, but I would guess that they
are much brighter. It's directional LED light with no shielding where the translucent face of
the giant letters, already cuts down 50% of the illumination right away.
Thank you. Thank you.
Okay. Anyone else? Any other board member have any questions?
Planning commission?
uh mr chairman this is mason austin from the planning commission um sorry uh this property
is indicated for residential mixed use in the comprehensive plan and is currently zoned for that
use in keeping with the letter submitted by the coordinating rco the planning commission has no
objection to the granting of these variances with provisor request provisors requested by lsni
thank you um
i would like to suggest that we have further discussion that the board has further discussion
on this case so mi 2020-00106760 north 23rd street the record is closed
the board will make a will render a decision at its next wednesday morning 9 30 session
week from today. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, members of the board.
Next one up is
2020-001146
5843-55 Catherine Street.
Excuse me, this is Sharon Saleta.
I believe the woman for Spark Street, the pro se appellant,
she wasn't able to sign on, or she wasn't able to somehow let you know
that she was here, unmute herself, but I believe she is still here.
Yeah, I sent it to confessor.
Oh, I'm sorry.
Let's do Catherine Street first, and then we'll go back to Spark's.
Does that work?
Yes, Chair.
Okay, thanks.
Anyone here on 58, 43, 55 Catherine Street?
I'm promoting Attorney Beth Grossman.
Thank you.
Tanya, are we okay with you in terms of staff?
Yes, Chair, however long you need as we're here.
Okay, thank you.
good afternoon miss good evening miss grossman please identify yourself for the record
good evening mr chairman members of the board miss zoletta and miss sunkett beth grossman