Committee Hearing, March 18, 2009

COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA COMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Wednesday, March 18, 2009 1:10 p.m. - - - PRESENT: COUNCILWOMAN MARIA QUINONES-SANCHEZ, CHAIR COUNCILWOMAN JANNIE BLACKWELL COUNCILMAN DARRELL L. CLARKE COUNCILMAN BILL GREEN COUNCILMAN WILLIAM GREENLEE COUNCILMAN JACK KELLY COUNCILWOMAN JOAN L. KRAJEWSKI COUNCILWOMAN BLONDELL REYNOLDS BROWN BILL 080650 - An ordinance amending Section 9-605 of The Philadelphia Code, entitled "Towing," by amending the requirements required for Towing from Private Lots... BILL 080953 - An ordinance amending Subcode "P" (The Philadelphia Plumbing Code) of Title 4 of The Philadelphia Code... - - - V A R A L L O Incorporated Litigation Support Services Eleven Penn Center 1835 Market Street, Suite 600 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 215.561.2220 215.567.2670 2

Good afternoon, everyone. I'm Councilwoman Maria Quinones-Sanchez, Chair of the Committee on License and Inspections. With me, the Committee on License and Inspections has established a quorum. I have Councilwoman Joan Krajewski, Councilman Bill Green, Councilman Bill 10 Greenlee and Councilman Jack Kelly. For the purposes of time, we're going to go to Bill 080650 first. Will the Clerk read the title of the bill.

080650, an ordinance amending Section 9-605 of The Philadelphia Code, entitled "Towing," by amending the requirements required for Towing from Private Lots, Private Property and Driveways, all under certain terms and conditions.

Thank you. I'm going to invite Otis Haigler from License and Inspections to 3 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 testify first and then the panel of Eddie Wright, Lew Blum Towing, George Smith Towing and Chris Foulds thereafter. (Witness approached witness table.)

You can begin.

Good afternoon, Chairwoman Sanchez and members of the Committee. I am Otis Haigler, Jr., Director of Legislative Affairs for the Department of Licenses and Inspections. Today I am here to provide testimony on Bill 080650, which, if enacted, will amend Section 9-605, Subsection 11 of The Philadelphia Code to allow for the reduction in the size of posted signs on single-family properties which authorizes the towing of vehicles by private towing operators pursuant to certain conditions being met as currently indicated in this section of the Code. The Department offers no 25 objections to the enactment of this bill, 4 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 and thank you for the opportunity to provide the Department's testimony.

Thank you. Any questions from the panel? (No response.)

Is anyone from the second panel that I talked about, Eddie Wright, Blum Towing, George Smith Towing or Chris Foulds, available? (Witness approached witness table.)

Identify yourself for the record.

My name is Christopher Foulds, F as in Frank, O-U-L-D as in dog, S as in Sam.

Do you have written testimony?

Written testimony, no. 24

All right. You can proceed. 5 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953

Well, just to be very brief about this, I live at 2nd and Morris Street, and one morning I woke up and there was a black Mustang with Jersey plates parked in front of my garage, which meant my wife couldn't get to work. So I called the PPA. The PPA said they couldn't tow. I called the police. The police said they couldn't tow. They said I had to get a private tower. Lew Blum came out and said he couldn't tow because he needed to put up a sign for at least hours. 15 He did put up the sign, and 16 it's grotesquely large. The ordinance 17 says it has to be 36 inches by 36 inches, 18 which in the abstract seems like it's 19 within the range of reasonableness, but 20 that's really quite large, three feet by 21 three feet. It ends up dominating my 22 home, and people laugh, quite frankly, 23 when they come over. So it's a rather 24 small thing, but important to us.

Any 6 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 questions from the panel? (No response.)

Thank you for your testimony. Anyone else here to testify on Bill 080650? (No response.)

Then we will move on to what everyone is here for, which is Bill 080953. Once the Clerk reads the title of the bill, I want to allow opening comments from its sponsor, Councilman Darrell Clarke.

Bill No. 080953, an ordinance amending Subcode "P" (The Philadelphia Plumbing Code) of Title 4 of The Philadelphia Code ("The Philadelphia Building Construction and Occupancy Code") by providing for the use of ABS plastic pipe and PVC plastic pipe, all under certain terms and conditions.

If we can wait a moment for Councilman Clarke, he wanted to have some brief remarks 7 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 before we started the testimony. The Chair recognizes Councilman Clarke, the sponsor of this bill, for remarks prior to the testimony.

Thank you, Madam Chair and members of the Committee. Real briefly, I just want to give you a quick history and the reason why we're here. Madam Chair, as you recall, you were not a member of Council at the point, but I do understand that you were interested in being provided in this particular -- what is that on?

Can we put up the volume of the microphones. We may want to turn that off. (Air conditioner is on.)

Excuse me. Excuse me. We will be orderly. Do you want to try again, Councilman Clarke? It's not going to turn off. They just turned on the air because so many people came. So they 8 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 just turned on the air. You want us to turn it off?

I mean, I can't hear myself speak.

They turned off the one on the second floor. We're waiting for the one on the first floor.

Thank you. Madam Chair, approximately a couple years ago, we started a process that we understood would be difficult, time consuming, in addition to which it will require significant cooperation from a lot of different parties, and we attempted to implement a program, which is known as inclusionary housing. During the course of the debate -- and I want to say that we brought in all parties involved, the development community, the building trades community, the government and the advocates, and we started a process that talked about a way of making housing in 9 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 the City of Philadelphia more affordable. And during the course of that discussion, it was understood that everybody had to participate in that, the City, government, be it the state, the development community, the building trades and the advocates, and we crafted a bill that talked about the parameters, meaning the eligibility and the cost associated with the housing that would be made. During the course of those hearings, one thing became clear, that unless we were in a position to get that cost down utilizing all available methods, we weren't going to be able to provide affordable housing. And I'd like to call it workforce housing, because the reality is that there are a lot of people out here who don't -- who make more money than traditional government housing authorizes you to be in, but they don't make enough to afford some of the very expensive condominiums and some of the 10 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 new construction. So we wanted to create an environment to build this housing that a person that's a police officer or a nurse or in the building trades can afford to purchase a new home in the City of Philadelphia. So we started a process that looked at cost offsets, and I talked to the development community, advocates, as I said earlier. One of the most significant issues that came up as it relates to cost was the cost of material. And being a person that believes in investigating it before I accept anybody's word, we looked at this whole issue about PVC pipe and the cost associated with the use of PVC versus copper and iron and -- copper and iron, cast iron. And once I understood that there was a substantial difference in cost, the first thing I did, because I understand the institutional nature of the Plumbers Union and their ability to use certain materials, I reached out, 11 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 before I talked to anybody else, to representatives from the Plumbers Union, and over the last four to five months, we have had what I would like to characterize as probably the most productive, substantive, cordial and refreshing meetings that I have ever had with representatives from the building trades. And I would like to say -- I want to call his name out. I don't want to get him in trouble, but Mr. Kane was a true gentleman. He kept his word, and throughout the process, he brought in other people from the industry and, frankly speaking, I thought we were on the path to getting an understanding. I'm assuming he felt comfortable that it was not my intent to cause any problems with his members, because I'm a former union member. I believe in unions. I understand the importance of having unions, particularly over the last eight years as it relates to this whole push on the national level 12 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 to get rid of unions. So we were working along a process that will deal specifically with a particular type of material, not affecting the workforce associated with that material.

We crafted what I believed to be a set of amendments that reflected some of the concerns, and we will probably have disagreement on that today, significant amount of the concerns that were raised, and in some instances, I actually don't -- the Administration does not agree with me, because what I committed to do is to taking out the commercial side of this bill, which is a significant portion, because my sole interest was residential. We talked about crafting a bill 21 that reflected a certain size of residential, because the buildings trades consistently and representatives from the industry talked about the concerns about high-rises and the installation of PVC. 13 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 And I must tell you, I got a significant education during this process, because I didn't understand the application process when you put PVC on just lower levels, it's safe as can be, and the further you go up, there's a different application process. And I learned something. But at the end of the day, I still believe that a person should have a choice. An individual should have a choice. A developer should have a choice. So if it costs more to put PVC in the upper floors, then I think that that person or that developer should have an option of paying more money for the installation, because we're in the City and I know the Administration is not going to support something that's unsafe. You're not going to get a building permit from License and Inspection if the application is not applied. We talked about inserting the specifics of the language as it relates to the application process to ensure that 14 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 nobody is going to come in our city and install PVC that's unsafe, and I was prepared to put that in the legislation. So today, as I proceeded on requesting a hearing, it was based on the belief that we would get a consensus. And I hope that we do, because I think that at the end of the day, our ability to provide housing in a less costly way will increase the level of housing. I just genuinely believe that, and I think any sane-thinking person would believe that also. So today, what we're going to do, from our perspective, is lay out the facts, the facts as it relates to the costs associated with the particular material, the facts as it relates to the safety of the implementation and the installment of this particular material and the need to ensure that we do things in the most cost effective and the most safe possible way of ensuring that people in the City of Philadelphia have a 15 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 choice. I'm not going to get -- personally, I don't want to get into us versus them, what they do in other places and what we do here and what we're prohibited doing. That discussion will be had at the witness table, because I want to talk about the City of Philadelphia and the importance of us working together to craft something that I think will benefit all of us. So we will believe that we will put on a case. And, as I said, I was prepared to offer some amendments to reflect a significant amount of the concerns that were raised by the individuals in the trades and the supporting individuals that were in those meetings. So today, we hope to lay out a case for our ability, the citizens' ability, to expand the application of PVC pipe. Thank you.

So you 16 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 don't have any amendments that you're going to offer up today, though?

I do have the amendments.

You do? Do you want to circulate them with the Committee now, or no?

I can. There are a couple of them. I was kind of getting a sense of the tone of the discussion.

So you'll hold them?

I genuinely hope that there can be some sort of an agreement reached, because during the course of those five months of working with these gentlemen, I understand that they're genuine. It's not personal. Their concerns are genuine. I enjoyed working with them. So I think when people work together and have meaningful dialogue, I think at the end of the day, people can 17 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 come to some sort of an agreement.

Thank you, Councilman Clarke. We are going to start. We have several different panels, so let me lay them out so folks know in the order that we're going. We're going to hear from the Administration and Commissioner Fran Burns, as well as Deputy Mayor Andrew Altman, are here. We're going to start with them. And then we're going to have a panel that includes Joe Rea, Chuck Breder, Patrick McDonald and Roland Kassis and Scott Orens, and that will be one panel. Then we're going to have a panel that includes Community Legal Services, Women's Revitalization, Project HOME and the Homeowners Association. And then we have two additional panels that include the Plumbers Union, firefighters membership, and then we are going to have -- the fourth panel will be MCA, Cast Iron and others. So just to give 18 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 folks a sense of the order in which we are going to proceed with the testimony. If there's someone else that I don't have on this list that is here who wants to testify, if you can approach staff on the side so that we make sure that we add you in to the panel. So with that, I'd like to start with Commissioner Burns and the folks from L&I and Deputy Mayor Andrew Altman, if they would come to the witness stand, please. (Witnesses approached witness table.)

We'll start with Deputy Mayor. DEPUTY

Good morning, Councilmember Sanchez and members of the Committee on Licenses and Inspections. My name is Andrew Altman. I'm the Deputy Mayor for Planning and Economic Development and the Director of Commerce. I am here today to testify in support of Bill No. 080953 introduced on 19 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 December 11, 2008. I want to thank Councilman Clarke for his focus on improving our Building Code and for all of his efforts. Bill No. 080953 amends the Philadelphia Plumbing Code to allow for the use of PVC and ABS piping throughout the Code for use in water supply, waste removal, rainwater drainage, venting and underground wastewater. Commissioner Fran Burns of the Department of Licenses and Inspections will testify next about the technical details and will also be available to answer any questions concerning implementation or enforcement. First, I think that it is important to set the framework for this issue and development as a whole in the City of Philadelphia. The cost of construction in Philadelphia is the fourth highest in the country. It's growing 17 percent faster than the national average. So any steps we can 20 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 take to reduce barriers to entry will help strengthen Philadelphia, making it a more competitive place to do business. Our Building Code is generally pretty cost competitive, and the Philadelphia Plumbing Code actually has some advantages over other jurisdictions with the use of a single-stack system, which requires less material and labor than other codes. Unfortunately, in many cases that savings is often mitigated or wiped out by the required use of materials such as cast iron and brass in other areas that take longer to install and could cost more. The allowance of PVC throughout the Plumbing Code will make the Philadelphia Plumbing Code one of the most cost efficient in the country, actually cheaper than the IPC, which governs the surrounding region. Our estimate is that the use of PVC could reduce total costs for new construction by as much as six to ten percent, and 21 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 cost in savings would be even greater for renovations since PVC is easier to install in existing structures and 75 percent of all Philadelphia construction is renovations. Another benefit of Bill 080953 is not just the effect that it will have on private developers, but the effect it will have for not-for-profits, institutions and City projects. This reduction in construction costs would allow the City, the School District, universities and hospitals to maximize their resources to provide services. For all of these reasons, I am here today to express our support for the bill, and I want to thank you for your time and happy to take any questions.

Are there any questions from the members? You want to hold until after the Commissioner? Okay. COMMISSIONER BURNS: Good afternoon, Councilwoman Sanchez and 22 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 members of the Committee. I am Fran Burns, Commissioner of the Department of Licenses and Inspections. Today I am here to testify in support of Bill 6 080953, which, if enacted, will amend the Philadelphia Plumbing Code in order to permit the installation of PVC or ABS piping for use in all buildings in the City. According to Section P-809.1 of the current Philadelphia Plumbing Code, above-ground piping shall be of brass, type "M" copper or heavier, cast iron, galvanized steel, galvanized alloy, galvanized malleable iron split couplings, stainless steel, poly butylene cold water pipe or plastic water pipe with appropriate approved fittings. Currently, below-ground piping shall be of brass, type "L" copper or heavier, cast iron or plastic cold water pipe. Section P-809.2 allows CPVC piping for domestic hot and cold water service in buildings that house no more than three 23 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 dwelling units and alternative housing designs such as single-room occupancies with a maximum of ten beds. Section 5 P-902.5 regulates that ABS plastic pipe shall be limited to installation in buildings containing dwelling units only. Such buildings shall consist of from one to four families and shall not exceed three stories in height. For the purpose of this section, basements are not considered a story in height. Bill 13 080953 will change the Philadelphia Plumbing Code to allow the use of PVC and ABS in all commercial and residential buildings above and below ground. For decades, the use of PVC has been allowed by model codes, not just the International Code, with no attempt to prohibit or limit its use to documented experience and with no limitation based on occupancy. The Department fields many questions from out-of-town designers and rejects a majority of plans because of the distinction between different types 24 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 of piping. Standardizing the type allowed or providing the option to use PVC or ABS will help eliminate confusion by developers, designers and contractors. The use of PVC or ABS is authorized in the International Plumbing Code that is adopted at the state or local level in 37 states, plus Washington, DC and Puerto Rico. It is also the standard of the Pennsylvania Uniform Construction Code. If this bill were adopted, the Department would take appropriate measure to ensure that inspectors and plans examiners are trained on the applicable code. The Department, therefore, supports enactment of Bill 080953 as introduced in Council on December 11, 2008. Thank you for the opportunity to provide testimony. I will be happy to answer any questions at this time and also happy to introduce Deputy 25 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 Commissioner Michael Fink.

Thank you, Commissioner Burns. I will start with recognizing that Councilwoman Blondell Reynolds Brown has joined as a member of this Committee, and Councilman Bill Greenlee has some questions.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Good afternoon, everybody. I didn't see in either of your testimony any talk about any study or any investigation you may have done on the safety of PVC. Have you done any? Because obviously there are concerns about that, particularly when it comes to fires. Have either of you looked into that personally yourselves? COMMISSIONER BURNS: Yes. Anything that we've looked at, what we've looked at are reports in comparing the two types and also put some credibility in those that adopt on the International 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 Code and developed the International Code and also the Uniform Construction Code, and in that, there is great regard to safety. As such, we haven't seen any scientific or otherwise proven evidence that any or other type is unsafe or that one type is safer than the other. And in terms of the Department of Licenses and Inspections, our job is to enforce the Code and not to regulate material. So we will continue to enforce whatever the Code may be. And also just one other caveat, the Building Code is constructed to protect and address safety issues as it relates to fire and fire construction materials.

Have you seen or heard the testimony or have you seen the letter Mr. McBride of the firefighters has put forth? COMMISSIONER BURNS: I have not.

Okay. We 27 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 may want to add more questions when that comes back. COMMISSIONER BURNS: Absolutely.

Thank you.

Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Green.

Good afternoon. In Deputy Mayor Altman's testimony it says that adding PVC will reduce the cost of construction by as much as six to ten percent. What is that based on? Did you do some sort of analysis? Do you have a report that you can share with the Committee? DEPUTY

Yeah, we could share. We've done an analysis of cost of construction in the City and the different elements of it. Yes.

And could 28 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 you please provide that to the Chair so that we might have the benefit of that as we look at this issue? DEPUTY

Sure.

The other thing is, I think in other cities where they allow PVC, I got the impression from somebody's testimony that where there is PVC used, you don't have single stack. You're required to have stacks wherever there's restrooms and stuff. In other words, we're the only city that allows single stack, and I thought that might be because of the quality of the pipes we used. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FINK: The single-stack system --

Identify yourself for the record, please. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FINK: I'm sorry. I'm Michael Fink, Deputy Commissioner for Licenses and Inspections Development. The single-stack system is 29 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 based upon the size of the pipe, allowing the system to vent the sewer gases, along with taking the waste material away. It was actually introduced as an approved system in the International Plumbing Code recently and failed by a very small margin. We believe it's a good system and would like to maintain it here in Philadelphia. But it really doesn't have anything to do with the type of materials. It has to do more with the size of the pipe.

Is there a list of cities that use PVC and also allow single stack? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FINK: I'm not aware of any, no. I believe the single-stack system is pretty much related just to Philadelphia, but, again, it deals with --

So there's no data on whether or not that's safe or will last a long time or anything like that? Because we would be out in the 30 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 frontier on this issue if we permitted this. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FINK: The single-stack system is for venting. It's based on the size of the pipe, not necessarily the type of material.

But nobody else has tried it with PVC; that's your testimony? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FINK: Not that I'm aware of, sir.

Okay. The other question I have is, what is the difference between PVC and ABS? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FINK: It's just different composition in the plastic, what is termed "plastic." There are a number of different types of plastic. That's just the material that goes in to making the plastic.

Okay. So many of the cost savings attributed to the six to ten percent cost savings, we're saying that using PVC compared to 31 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 our current system will save six to ten percent, but it appeared to me from Commissioner Burns' testimony that we actually allow ABS and CPVC in certain categories right now, like single-family homes, dwelling units of less than three stories, et cetera. So my question is, what is -- and that seems to be the area Councilman Clarke is concerned with. What is the difference in the cost of installing PVC versus ABS and the way it's used? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FINK: I'm not familiar with the cost. I only deal with the model codes. I can't speak to the cost. I have not personally done any studies in that.

But with respect to the areas currently that permit CPVC and ABS, like -- let's just go over them real quick. Domestic hot and cold water, no more than three dwelling units and alternative housing design such as single-room occupancies 32 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 with a maximum of ten beds, installation in buildings containing dwelling units only, can only be one to four families and shall not exceed three stories in height. Isn't that most of the areas that seem to be -- aren't we addressing this problem already in the small house space in the homes for the kind of people that were mentioned in Councilman Clarke's opening statement? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FINK: It is allowed in most residential occupancies, again, three stories or less.

So there is no testimony about the difference in cost between -- you don't know, the Administration does not currently know, the difference in cost between building what is currently permitted with CPVC or ABS and PVC? There may be no cost difference? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FINK: Not 33 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 that I'm aware of, no. 3

Okay. Thank you.

The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Blondell Reynolds Brown.

Good afternoon. I have a follow-up to Councilman Green's question. Why that particular height limit as opposed to any other height limit that's stipulated on the first page of Commissioner Burns' testimony? How do we end up at that particular place? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FINK: That was established before I ever came to my position. I do not know what the basis of that height limitation or occupancy limitation is.

The Mayor has made it very, very clear beginning on Inauguration Day that he wanted to make Philadelphia a greener city, and a number 34 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 of measures have been introduced on City Council addressing just that, how we move to make Philadelphia more sustainable. Which of the two is more environmentally acceptable? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FINK: Defining what is green is something that is -- (Audience members yelling.)

What did you say?

Excuse me, folks. Please. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FINK: Defining when something is green is kind of difficult to measure. I believe most people would say that plastic is not as natural a material as cast iron, but the use of plastic pipe allows us to use perforated pipe, which can give you a better method of dispensing with storm water and items like that.

Repeat your last statement. 35 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FINK: Using PVC pipe, which is perforated, can allow us to use better methods of disposing of storm water to get it back into the aquifer as opposed to getting it to the City's sewers, which the City's Water Department then has to treat. So it's hard to quantify which is more green. Additionally, you could even get into inane arguments about whether or not the cost of transportation of the material -- when someone does a LEED certification, it looks so far into the actual accrual of the materials, the purchase and transportation of the material, that that all goes into what determines what's more sustainable or not. So there's too much of a variable there. Perhaps the developers in this area can deal with that, because, again, I do not do cost analysis.

Okay. Point of information, Madam Chair, to the 36 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 sponsor of the bill. Currently, as the bill is written, this change, if implemented, would affect housing construction of any type, meaning those that are supported financially by the City as well as private development as well?

Correct, as the bill is currently written.

So with that in mind, does L&I have any procedure, regulation where a different set of rules apply for those residential construction where there is City financing? In other words, if you are doing anything for the City and you're coming to the City and you're asking for City financial support, then with that, the City has either a different set of rules or another set of rules for those who want to get City support and abide by these additional conditions that the City may be imposing, because you're asking for City financial support? 37 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 COMMISSIONER BURNS: No. 3

Anything in the Code right now? COMMISSIONER BURNS: No. 6

Mr. Altman. DEPUTY

No. No, not in the Code right now, and I think the idea of this is that we want to effect as much the private and not just the City supported. So there's one set of standards that -- I mean, if there are additional things that -- you talked about LEED or other certifications that we're aspiring to, has there been measures about green roofs where we've put incentives in, but I think in terms of looking at the Building Code and what's been adopted, trying to have a uniform set of regulations, whatever those may be for basic construction in the City.

You say we're trying to adopt. 38 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 DEPUTY

Well, in terms of what's before us. That's why we didn't differentiate between the public and the private for this.

Okay, then. All right.

Excuse me. Point of information. Councilman Clarke, as the sponsor, do you want to give a clarifying statement to what the Councilwoman is asking?

Yeah. Actually, both issues. One with respect to Councilman Green's question about the current allowance of PVC in existing three-story single-family homes. One of the issues as it relates to the inclusionary housing, the agreement that was reached, that it must be -- the trigger was 20 units or more. So a three-story home obviously does not have 20 units, so, therefore, in order to have the inclusionary housing trigger, you must have at least 20 units, which, 39 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 therefore, calls for the need to be in a position to build more than units in 4 order to get the affordable housing. 5 That's with respect to the Councilman's 6 question about why are we seeking to 7 expand it beyond the three-story housing. 8 Just pure numbers. In addition to which, 9 there has been no proof that I can see 10 that using it in buildings beyond three 11 units is not safe. 12 So, as I said in my earlier 13 statements, I think that a person should 14 have the option. If they choose to apply 15 PVC in a building that has 20 units or 30 16 units, if it is safe, then I think that 17 that person should have that option. And 18 if it costs more, then that person will 19 probably opt to go to cast iron or 20 copper. Frankly speaking, the information we have shows that it will be less costly.

And just for another point of information, so we would be talking, for instance, just as 40 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 an example, PHA's housing developments that have multi units, or no?

If PHA -- as you know, there are conventional sites in there --

Right. And then they have their multi --

Then there's scatter sites. A conventional site development such as -- and PHA is probably not a good example, because all of that is affordable. But the question with respect to the uses of PVC, in fact, is required in a senior citizens development, so to speak, because it is above the three threshold number. That goes directly to the cost associated with the City or the government subsidy. In the case of the PHA, it's the government. So the higher the cost associated with that development, the more it's going to cost us in subsidy, because PHA is a subsidized development. And any non-profit corporation, that essentially 41 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 is going to be an additional infusion of cash, of taxpayers' money, to subsidize that unit, because the cost is so high.

Did you have any other points? Because then I was going to recognize back to Councilman Green, I think had other questions, but I know your light was on prior to that. Was there any other point that you wanted to --

No. 13 Councilman Green was asking about the three --

But did you have a point? I wanted to recognize you because your light went on. Because I know Councilman Green has --

No. That was in response to Councilman Green's.

So can he continue his line of questioning?

Oh, absolutely.

Thank 42 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 you.

The Code sections that are mentioned in Commissioner Burns' testimony, do they not apply to over units? 7 COMMISSIONER BURNS: That's 8 correct. 9

So this is 10 20 units and under? 11 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FINK: 12 Those Code sections apply -- if you read 13 them again, they say four units or under, 14 three stories or under. So that's the 15 maximum. 16

But that's 17 per building? 18 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FINK: Yes, 19 sir. 20

Okay. So for single-family residences, twins, it applies? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FINK: Yes, sir.

And the 43 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 majority of homes built in Philadelphia, the kind of homes that we're talking about here, are generally single family or twins? Is there any -- DEPUTY

I have to get the numbers for you exactly.

If you could provide that to the Chair, that would be great. The other thing I wanted to ask was, in Deputy Mayor Altman's testimony, it says the cost savings and impact would be greater for renovations since PVC is easier to install in existing structures and 75 percent of construction is renovations. Is ABS as easy to install as PVC? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FINK: They're both pretty much the same.

Thank you.

Madam Chair.

Yes. 44 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 Councilwoman Brown.

Additional follow-up. The sponsor of the bill 5 raised the issue of choice. Is there an intention to deal with the issue of choice at any juncture? And can you respond to why that is not even a factor in this bill, or is that left for further discussion? Why should not builders be given a choice to spend how much money they want to spend if they have limited budgets? COMMISSIONER BURNS: Well, I think that the point is that we're just supporting the choice to be had so that developers could choose between either type. DEPUTY

As opposed to being mandated to only use one. So I think the question of choice so that people have the option -- there is an option, the ability to be able to use an alternative system so that there is a cost reduction, if they want to -- 45 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953

That was not clear to me. Thank you very much. That wasn't clear. Thank you.

Any other questions from the panel? (No response.)

Okay, then. Thank you very much from the Administration panel. We will move on to a panel that includes Joe Rea, Chuck Breder, Patrick McDonald, Roland Kassis and Scott Orens. And could the next panel, if folks are here, remain close by, which is Community Legal Services, WCRP, Jannine Miller, Darrell Zaslow and Michael Cudahy. (Witnesses approached witness table.)

Good afternoon. Can you identify yourself for the record and begin. Joe Rea?

My name is Sam Sherman. I'm the President of the Building Industry Association of 46 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 Philadelphia. I think I was on the list.

Oh, I'm sorry. You were before that. I'm sorry.

Yes. And what I wanted to do was take an opportunity to introduce the other panelists very quickly, but also to thank you, Councilwoman, for allowing us to testify on this issue and also Councilman Clarke for introducing the legislation. I have prepared testimony. I believe the Committee members have been supplied with that written testimony, and there's been some supplemental information brought before you as well in the last hour. And with that, I will provide my testimony and then I would ask that Pat McDonald speak next, as he has to go to an appointment and he would like to offer testimony. As I said, my name is Sam Sherman. I'm the President of the Building Industry Association of Philadelphia, and the BIA is here in 47 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 support of Bill No. 080953, which would allow PVC piping in plumbing to be installed in lieu of cast iron. The BIA supports this legislation because in this economy, the use of PVC reflects and demonstrates that it will cost less to install and use in residential applications. And our own internal analysis at the Building Industry Association has demonstrated on average it will reduce construction costs on a typical three-bedroom, two-and-a-half bath home by about $2,200 to $2,500 depending on square footage. The use of PVC piping will also save the City money in that any City projects that are financed and involved in the infrastructure upgrades or the upgrades to existing buildings will translate into direct savings to the City budget, as in the savings realized by the use and permission to use PVC pipe. Furthermore, there are added costs to the use of this cast iron that 48 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 we're currently using in that the plumbing inspectors in Philadelphia have to undergo additional training in the installation of cast iron piping. This adds cost and it also adds to administrative costs that must be realized by the Department of License and Inspections. And, lastly, the BIA has provided data that will support the argument that PVC is an acceptable alternative to cast iron. And with that, in the interest of time, I would like to ask that Pat McDonald offer testimony next on the list. But thank you very much for allowing us to testify. MR. McDONALD: Good afternoon, members of the Council. My name is Patrick McDonald. I'm a master plumber for 20-plus years in the City of Philadelphia and come from a long line of plumbers. My father was a 690 plumber. On the seal that I hold as a 49 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 master plumber, the phrase "Plumbers protect the health and welfare of the nation" stands out very bold and defined. I've always taken this oath very, very seriously and, over the years, have questioned some of the Code requirements contained in the Philadelphia Plumbing Code. I would like to address a common material used in the current Philadelphia Plumbing Code. The use of lead for our sanitary piping systems is a Code requirement. This requirement is, quote, a "forbidden use item" and against the law in nearly every city across the nation. I'd like to look at some statistics with you today. According to the article 21 prepared for the FDA Consumer, Volume 32 in January of 1998, lead was banned from house paint in 1978. S. canners quit using lead in solder in 1991. A 25-year phaseout of lead in gasoline reached its 50 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 goal in 1995. As a result of such efforts and more, the number of young children with potentially harmful blood levels has dropped 85 percent in the past years, as shown by the National Health 7 and Nutritional Examination Survey 8 conducted by the National Center for 9 Health Statistics and funded by the FDA. 10 The FDA continues to approve new portable 11 blood lead screening kits for health 12 professionals to use to address this 13 serious health issue. 14 So is lead a health risk? 15 Let's look.

" In 1986, a four-volume document was prepared by a group of senior scientists in the EPA and was the most thorough and comprehensive toxicological assessment ever produced to date of the dangers of lead in relationship to human health. In this report, it was found that, quote, "Inhaled or ingested lead circulates via the bloodstream, mineralizing tissues such as teeth and bone. " Where is lead required in The Philadelphia Code? We spoke about that with L&I a little bit ago. And the answer is, again, anywhere underground and inside any commercial or residential buildings and up to ten feet out of the side of the wall of the structure. This means that plumbers, plumbers' helpers, 52 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 fellow contractors, City inspectors absorb the fumes of the molten lead being used. This is in 2009, not in 1786. However, even more alarming and disturbing is that because the requirement is for molten lead to be used inside all existing homes, if you were to call a plumber today to make a repair or a replacement of a sanitary line in your basement under the floor or outside of your home up to ten feet, your home and your family would be subject to the same toxic fumes that the construction workers are breathing. Why? Is PVC dangerous? From what I understand, PVC is dangerous if you burn it. Lead is being used constantly underground when my family and your families are living and eating dinner upstairs. Why are the national codes, including Plumbing and Building, et cetera, in agreement that PVC is a viable material and accepted and approved into those codes? With the proven health 53 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 risk to all, why would there be a single plumber, let alone a lawmaker, that would disapprove the use of a superior, much healthier material, a material that they let their own children, their own children and themselves play with on a day-to-day basis? Examples of that are whiffle ball bats, toy soldiers, Rubik's Cubes, all over the home in windows, doors, vacuum cleaners, coffee pots. This is all PVC. Not to mention the content of PVC, which is 40 percent or greater, in every one of the vehicles that people drive on a daily basis. Let's work together to do away with this archaic, dangerous requirement and lead the way to Philadelphia's movement to be the greenest city in the nation by 2015, and a healthy one at that. Let's stop messing around with old-age techniques which benefit few and hurt many. Thank you. ) 54 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 MR. McDONALD: By the way, there's glue and primer in every one of the other items that I mentioned in coffee pots.

Excuse me. I'll have folks have to leave if we're going to shout out. We're going to have plenty of time and ample testimony from all sides of this. So please, let's be respectful to our witnesses. You have a --

It was directly for him, Mr. McDonald. So it's up to you, however you want to do it.

Well, there's two more people on that panel. Right, Mr. Sherman?

Right. As well as Michael Cudahy. I believe you have his information in front of you. And I would ask that he speak next. He is an expert in the use of PVC.

Okay. So in terms of your panel, you want 55 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 Michael Cudahy first and then --

And then the balance of the testimony, yes. Thank you.

For the purposes of time, for those of you who have written testimony, if we can try not to be repetitive, but at least cover other points, that would be important for us so that we can give ample time for everyone to testify today. So with that, Michael Cudahy.

Thank you. My name is Michael Cudahy. I'm the Codes and Training Specialist from PPFA, the Plastic Pipe and Fittings Association. PPFA is a trade association that represents all plastic piping systems used in buildings. We are encouraged that the City of Philadelphia is considering this action. PVC and ABS piping deserves to be included in the City of Philadelphia's Plumbing Code, as this bill is intended 56 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 to accomplish. I think you are all aware of the material and labor savings potential of adopting these materials already specified in all of the major model plumbing codes. Plastic piping products are easily the dominant plumbing materials today and offer tremendous performance at an installed cost that can be 75 percent lower for materials and 38 percent lower for labor costs depending on your local market conditions. I have submitted to the Dias (ph) a 2006 cost comparison report you can review later. PVC, for example, has been in use since the 1930's in Germany and since the 1960's in the states. It is hardly a new or untested product. It is in fact a dominant material for water and sewer applications. Plastic piping is lighter in weight, more efficient in transport, lower in cost and does not corrode, thereby increasing safety by keeping wastewater contained and drinking water 57 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 pure. All you really need to corrode metal pipe is air and water. Plastic pipes, like PVC, are vital to many green and sustainable building systems that get points in programs such as LEED, GreenGlobes and the National Green Building Standard. Systems such as gray water, reclaimed water, radon venting, rainwater catchment, central vacuum and geothermal systems are in fact enabled by plastic piping materials. If Philadelphia is in fact intending to build green and sustainable systems, the removal of undue restrictions on plastic piping should be your first endeavor. Building green brings jobs and helps move our economy. The State of Pennsylvania has at least two major plastic pipe producers. Charlotte Pipe has a plant in Muncy, and Harvel Plastics has its manufacturing headquarters in Easton, meaning materials are available and can be bought locally and put people to work 58 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 in the state. PPFA only asks that the City of Philadelphia create a level playing field for all products currently in the model building codes, as the great majority of the other cities and states have. This will allow for more choice, better economy and allow Philadelphia to continue to modernize its infrastructure, build green and apply stimulus money to many needed projects. And I would just add two comments to some of the testimony I've already heard. I think everybody in this room knows the single-stack Philly system works. If you moved it to another city, would it work? The answer is yes. It's all about venting and design of plumbing systems. The material itself is not relevant. I find it funny that other cities have a difficult time in adopting the local venting system, because it's a perfectly good system. But the plumbing codes do vary from state to state. 59 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 Also, we are talking here specifically not about distribution piping in the house such as PEX and CPVC. Those materials are used to distribute hot and cold water within the building. The topic for today is the DWV systems; in other words, the drain, waste and vent pipe. Those are two completely different systems and you'd better keep them separate. Thank you.

Mr. Sherman, you have two more testimonies as part of your panel?

Excuse me?

You have two more testimonies?

Yeah; Joe Rea of Westrum Development.

Good afternoon. My name is Joseph Rea and I'm here to testify on behalf of Westrum Development Company. I'd like to thank the Chair of License and Inspections Committee, 60 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 Councilwoman Sanchez, for allowing me to testify and the rest of us and Councilman Clarke for sponsoring the legislation. I've got years of experience 6 in construction. I have worked in 7 multi-family for the past ten. I've 8 worked in Pennsylvania, Maryland, 9 Virginia and New Jersey. Right now there 10 are multiple projects out in the suburbs 11 of Pennsylvania, ones as close as 12 Conshohocken, that are using PEX and PVC 13 within the buildings. As the gentleman 14 to the right brought up, PEX has been and 15 PVC has been in the U.S. since 1980's. It does help us in green endeavors, and the way it helps us is, copper actually calcifies. And if anybody knows the City of Philadelphia's water pressure, PEX and PVC are smooth with inside the system and do not allow for chemical creep and for deformities to happen as quickly. In addition to that, PEX is almost a jointless system. Rolls come in thousand feet. It allows us as 61 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 developers and builders to stop our warranty calls coming back and forth as often. They also allow for more direct dispersal of water, meaning when you turn your water on, you don't have to wait for ten minutes for the hot water to supply. It's a direct line down to the system off a manifold system. PVC and PEX is more than competitively priced. The installation of the system is fast, and because of the heat, the easy handling and the lightweight systems, you're allowed to transfer them throughout the buildings and stock buildings much easier than you are with copper. PEX systems can be tested immediately as opposed to CPVC, which you have to wait for glue drying time, and all this just speeds up our building and production processes. The manifold features also allow, if there is an issue within a home, to shut down one fixture. Instead of calling and saying, I've got a leak, 62 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 you need to shut down your entire water system, you can just shut down the water system to that one fixture. It acts as more of a breaker box, an electrical breaker box, than it does the main water system. For the homeowner, the homeowner can substantially reduce their water and energy consumption in a home by these systems, which I already described, which was the direct systems and the less recall and less regenerating of the hot water heaters. The direct lines can be sized to the fixture requirements. Instead of just dispersing half-inch pipe throughout the house, you're allowed to adjust your piping sizes for the dispersal of the water. PEX also does not transfer energy as readily as copper does, which means it insulates the hot water throughout the house. And the flexible systems are much quieter than a rigid system. If anybody has those rigid 63 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 systems and you hear that ticking as you turn your hot water on, this eliminates or at least reduces it. And the last thing I'll say is that in the ultra competitive market that we're in right now, we must implement the most efficient and effective construction methods, while taking advantage of any available cost savings that does not sacrifice quality. I've attached a spreadsheet to my testimony in which it does give you the instances of cast and copper versus PEX and PVC. And I'd like to say that I have 160 units within the limits of the City of Philadelphia that if we are able to make this change, it's going to save our company over a million dollars, which will allow us to continue with building within the City. Thank you very much.

We actually have two more, Scott Orens and Chuck Breder, Chuck Breder from Toll. 64 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953

Good afternoon. My name is Chuck Breder with Toll Brothers. I want to thank you for the opportunity to present testimony before you. (Audience members yelling.)

I have --

Excuse me. Hold on a second. Folks, please. Thank you.

-- eighteen years building experience to include condominiums where PVC and CPVC are being used. As a builder, I wanted to bring some of the information that's available to us when we evaluate products such as PVC and CPVC to your attention. There are a great number of independent testing laboratories, industrial sources and obviously the applicable codes to help us evaluate these products. In searching for information, we've gained a great deal of information from each of these sources. 65 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 In my testimony you'll find a fact sheet from the American Chemistry Council on PVC piping, in addition to cost estimates and the savings from PVC piping. They also give you the background of the fact that it has been used for over 40 years and is even approved in the State of California. In looking at the water quality issues with CPVC, we looked to the NSF International, which is an independent testing organization, and I provided documentation in the package as well to show that the products have been thoroughly tested and do meet water quality requirements. There is a great deal of concern about CPVC and fire, how it reacts and the fumes that might be emitted in a fire. I have included information on PVC and its reaction in a fire in your package. Generally, when you review that information, you'll find that PVC requires approximately a 60 66 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 percent oxygen environment in order to maintain ignition, and normal breathing air is percent. The experts are 5 telling us that it does not pose an 6 additional health risk when it's used and 7 generally poses the same risks as the 8 wood that a typical home might be built 9 with. 10 There's also been concern about 11 dioxin that I've heard, and it's been 12 raised in the past, and the documentation 13 in my package before you shows that there 14 is an amount of dioxin used in the 15 production and manufacturing of PVC. 16 There is an emission of dioxin when PVC 17 burns, but the experts say it does not 18 leach from the pipe when it's used 19 underground. But the experts also say 20 that most of the other materials a home is built of also emit a similar level of dioxin, to include the wood in a wood-framed building that is used. I think generally, I mean, if a home is engulfed to the point where the 67 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 plastics that are in the walls are reacting with fire, then obviously at that point there should be known in there and the entire environment is really a toxic environment at that point. I also have a wide variety of quotes from scientists, code officials, fire departments and other government bodies that have faced the same decision as the City of Philadelphia is facing now, and I can tell you that as a builder, that the information that's available, as well as the International Plumbing Code, really gives us the comfort to use these products, and we do use them every day. Thank you.

Scott Orens.

Good afternoon. Scott Orens, Orens Brothers Incorporated. I'd like to thank Councilwoman Sanchez for allowing me to testify today and also like to thank Councilman Clarke for 68 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 introducing the bill. I will be brief. I'm a licensed master plumber in the City of Philadelphia. I'm also a developer. I've been a plumber in the City since 1989 and I've been a developer since 1980. The question before us is whether or not the City of Philadelphia should approve the use of affordable, efficient, viable, tested, approved products that are used in other townships, municipalities and cities in this country. My teenage daughter would say, Duh. The next statement I'm going to make might not be well received by the multitudes here, but I believe and the people with me believe that the real problem is, the Philadelphia Plumbers Union views these materials as a threat to their jobs, because these products require less labor to install. Since this would be such an obvious self-serving argument, they've chosen to 69 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 focus on the supposed health threats and inferiority of using these materials. I believe it's wrong to allow a relatively small group of people to dictate to the rest of the City in order to protect their own self-interests. Not just developers, but City residents and City government would realize the cost savings and benefits of using these materials. It should be noted that other cities with strong unions have approved the use of these materials. Secondly, more affordable means more projects could become viable and more plumbing work could be available, as well as more construction jobs for everyone. What is more affordable for the developer is also more affordable for the City when it does projects. As a resident of the City and a taxpayer, I believe that it is imperative that the City seeks to approve all cost-saving measures available to it. 70 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 When the City does a project, the use of these materials result in cost savings to the City, as I mentioned. City Council should not allow the tail to wag the dog. This proposal is good for developers, it's good for residents, it's good for the City and it's good for creating jobs, and ultimately I believe it's good for plumbers, and it's long overdue. Thank you.

Thank you, gentlemen. Any questions from the panel? I'm going to recognize Councilman Bill Greenlee.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Just very quickly. My original question was to Mr. McDonald, because I was reading your testimony, but I missed -- you said something about PVC and it's only a problem when it burns or something. I didn't quite follow what you meant by that. You say it's only a 71 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 problem when -- Mr. McDonald. Because I didn't see it in your study, but I didn't quite -- what do you mean by that? MR. McDONALD: Yes. What I was referring to is that the dangers that I've heard people speak of today was PVC burning, or ABS, in regards to either one of the polyvinyl chloride or the ABS product, and I was making the point that we are burning lead and breathing lead fumes in our homes now when we use the current Code. The only way that we would be breathing those chemicals or similar dangerous chemicals is if there was a fire where ABS were burning. And in this case --

And that does happen, right? MR. McDONALD: Well, I don't know about you, Councilman, but I'm normally not in a house while it's burning.

No, but there are some people that are. I can 72 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 get sarcastic back just like you can. (Applause.) MR. McDONALD: I understand that.

And, sir, I'll bet I'm better at it, if that's the way you want to go. MR. McDONALD: Councilman, I apologize. I didn't mean to be sarcastic. I was speaking to your point, and your point about PVC burning in the house is, while people are in the house, every other thing burning is dangerous and will kill you.

Okay. And also there's firefighters who go into those -- MR. McDONALD: Along with the wood and the other plastic products, and that what's I testified to.

But it does add, if it is a danger when burning obviously, it's an additional problem for anyone who might go into that building. 73 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 Obviously you and I are running out, but there's other people running in. MR. McDONALD: And I'm more speaking to the fact of the lead that's being burned in the house while the family is eating dinner and having the toxic fumes in themselves -- (Audience members yelling.)

Come on, folks. I'm going to have to ask the folks, if we continue like this -- we have to be respectful in our disagreements. Calling out, as I said, there is enough testimony on both sides of these issues for your concerns to be brought forward, but we have to be respectful.

That's it, Madam Chair. Thank you.

The Chair recognizes Councilman Green.

Thank you. Has any person testified, Sam or anybody else, talked with the Plumbers 74 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 Union or others about this situation and the potential to work out a compromise --

No. 5

-- that would allow residential development -- not at all?

No. 9

Okay. I apologize. As I told the Chair, I have a longstanding 2:30 commitment. If there is a vote required, I will come back. It will take me about minutes to get 14 here. 15

Thank you, Councilman.

Can we do that one amendment now?

Yes. The Chair recognizes Councilman Clarke.

Councilman, I just need one amendment. It's one that we all agree on.

Bill, 75 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 Councilman Clarke needs you to stay for this amendment.

I have to go.

It's one that we all agree on. It'll take two seconds. It's taking commercial out of the bill. I mean, everybody agrees on that.

Can we try to get Councilman Kelly?

I just want to offer to take the commercial -- I promised when I met with the gentlemen that I would take commercial out of the bill. I want to keep my promise, because if I tell you I'm going to do something, I'm going to do it. (Applause.)

I'm going to -- if Councilman Green will engage us for two minutes, I want to recognize Councilman Bill Greenlee to move the amendment proposed by Councilman 76 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 Clarke.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I move the amendment as previously stated, which would take the commercial properties out of this mix. (Duly seconded.)

I have a second.

You got to go into the public meeting first.

I'm sorry. We have to recess the public hearing. We're going to, for the purposes of this, do the public meeting. And now Councilman Greenlee has moved that the amendment as proposed by Councilman Clarke be voted on. Councilwoman Blondell Reynolds said second. All in favor would say aye. (Aye.)

No 25 opposition. So we are accepting the 77 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 amendment as proposed to Bill 080953. Councilman Clarke, can we get this copied so some of the folks want --

Yes.

Will and Councilman, can we circulate this amendment to the folks who are left to testify? I'm going to recess the public meeting and go back to the public hearing.

I'm sorry. While we're still in the public meeting, in case a vote occurs on Bill 080953, if a vote occurs, I will vote -- I'd like to be recorded, with the Chair's permission, as voting no on Bill 080953. (Applause.)

On Bill 21 080650 I'd like to be recorded as voting yes. Thank you.

Thank you. 78 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 So as previously stated, we will go back to our public hearing to hear the rest of the testimony. I'm going to recognize Councilwoman Blondell Reynolds who has questions for the panel currently at the witness table.

Let me thank you all for your testimony, first of all, and thank you for my answer to the question around what is environmentally acceptable at this juncture in our city and under this leadership where the Mayor has made it exceedingly clear that being environmentally responsible is the future and the future is now. To the questions and statements around lead, you should know that this legislative body has taken a lot of measures to look to see how we as a city can be more responsible when it comes to removing lead from homes, because there's still too many incidents where children 79 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 are adversely affected by lead. So the enlightenment that you shared with us around lead was welcomed. To this question what's happening across City Line Avenue, am I to understand that outside of Philadelphia, builders and developers do have a choice? Is that what I heard?

Yes, ma'am. In Conshohocken, buildings are being rezoned as accepting PVC.

Repeat that.

In Conshohocken, the Millennium project, the one that caught on fire that had copper and cast, is now being rebuilt in PVC and PEX.

And this decision was made because?

You have the ability to make that decision, as well as in Montgomery County, Bucks County -- (Audience member yelling "Not in Abington.") 80 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953

I'm sorry. I did not say Abington, but in those that I just referred to, you have that choice.

Excuse me. Excuse me.

So then if you take that down a notch further, individual municipalities have that choice or not; is that what I'm hearing? Because isn't Abington in Montgomery County?

Yes. As far as I know, this is allowed in the National, International Codes, as well as the United States, Canada and it is approved by HUD for potable waters and for waste and sewer lines.

Okay, then. Thank you all for your testimony. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Any other questions from the panel? I want to recognize Councilman Clarke. Did you have a question? Your 81 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 light is on.

No. 4

Okay. Thanks, panel, for coming. I'd like to call -- Fire Commissioner is here, who is going to testify as part of the Administration, if the Commissioner could come forward and give his testimony. (Witness approached witness table.)

Do you have written testimony, Commissioner? COMMISSIONER AYERS: No. 16

Okay. Thank you. You can begin. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Good afternoon. The Philadelphia Fire Department, we were asked about the bill 22 that is in question and how it related to the firefighters as relation to fire in a building and PVC piping. One of the things that we did was, we looked at the 82 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 codes, and, as you know, the International Code Council has approved these types of materials for buildings. Now, one of the things that we looked at was the environment that we find ourselves in as firefighters around plastics as related to PVC and other things, and when we stop and think about the fire load that something like that would add, it's not much different than what we face every day fighting fires in buildings and homes, plastics from telephones to televisions to stereo sets, things like that, and when we weighed it from what it would mean to firefighters going into that environment, looking at the enhancements that we have technologically today, self-contained breathing apparatus, making sure that those safety issues for our firefighters are adhered to, the different poisons that are in the gases and the fumes that are given off. We have a system where we clean our running gear at least once a 83 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 year. We would like to do it twice a year. That's a program that we're starting to implement. But we actually clean those toxins out of our running gear, because we know they're in the environment now. We're looking at this bill and we don't feel like it's going to have an impact on us as what we do as far as going in and fighting fires at this point. We looked at some other cities that have PVC in their building code and we looked at the fire codes as far as how they all handle those issues, and it's pretty much the same as the way the Philadelphia Fire Department looks at that. It doesn't add a great load to the firefighter as far as what's already there. Our goal in the City of Philadelphia is to stop the fire in the first place, and that's where most of our focus is. The safety focus is that any 84 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 time any of our members have to enter an environment like that, that they are protected with self-contained breathing apparatus and all of their personal safety equipment is in place, and those are the things that we face.

Thank you. Are there any questions from the panel? The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Blondell Reynolds Brown.

I'm lost. I was not able to determine whether or not you are in support of the bill or not in support of the bill. COMMISSIONER AYERS: As far as the allowance of the two items, ABS and PVC, we are not against the bill.

Point of order.

Yes. The Chair recognizes Councilman Clarke.

Thank you, 85 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 Madam Chair. Councilwoman -- and I don't want to speak for the Commissioner -- we asked the Commissioner to be here to talk about the fire and safety issue, not the bill --

That's helpful.

-- whether or not PVC saves money. I did not want him -- because that's really not his responsibility.

It's a policy decision. The Administration --

I just wanted him to be here to talk about it, because it had been raised to us in our discussions about the concern as it relates to fires. So we had asked the Commissioner to talk about the issue with respect to what would be emitted as a result of a fire in a building that has PVC, be it three stories or ten stories. My assumption is that the 86 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 emissions from the building is going to be the same if it's three stories or ten stories as relates to PVC. That's not a difference. And I just didn't understand that discussion. If it's safe for a three-story building, why is it not safe for a ten-story building.

Okay.

I'm not asking that question, because that's just a part of the discussion that we've been having, because I've genuinely tried to understand why we can't use this. And I've been as open as possible, and I hate to get on the soapbox, because the more --

Seize the moment.

I'm just at a loss as to why, if it's okay for three stories -- and I understand -- and in our debate, I want to acknowledge publicly that the representatives put a counteroffer to go up to four stories in 87 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 ten units, which wouldn't help with respect to the affordable housing. Then it's four stories. If it's not safe for ten stories, then it shouldn't be safe for four stories. But we asked the Commissioner to just come here and talk about the safety issue as it relates to emissions, is it any different than any other emissions that would happen as a result of a fire in a building. Because, I mean, obviously if a rug burns, if you breathe the toxins emitted from a rug burning, it's not safe. So that's why we asked him, not the merits of this bill.

That's very, very helpful. Because I would suspect when you go into a building, it doesn't matter what started it or what the materials are. You have one goal and one objective, and that's to clear up the fire. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Exactly; to mitigate the damage, ensure the safety 88 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 of any occupants, ensure the safety of our firefighters as well. When we go into buildings today, if you took piping and threw it in the building, the issue that we would have in a pile of ABS piping or PVC piping would be different from what it would be like if it's in a sprinkler system or if it's in a waste system or some system that's piping water in. Two different things. It's very dangerous, it's very flammable, all of those things, but installed and in its place, it's no 15 different than the telephone being very dangerous sitting on a bureau and giving off -- melting down fire, giving off the same toxins. These are the things that we see. We talk to our firefighters about those things. We talk about fire load. Once we went to plastics and the plastics and chemical industries took over in building materials, as well as appliances, household goods, things like 89 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 that, the fire service had to make a conscious decision to make a transition, ensuring that we all had self-contained breathing apparatus. We understood the high temperatures that we would face going into these buildings, and it doesn't change with this bill one way or another.

Okay. That is helpful. Thank you very, very much.

Any other questions from the panel to the Commissioner? (No response.)

Thank you, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Thank you.

Thank you.

So we will move along to our next panel that includes Nora Lichtash from WCRP, George Gould from Community Legal Services, Jannine Miller from, I believe, Project 90 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 HOME and Darrell Zaslow from the Homeowners Association. (Witnesses approached witness table.)

And then we will move to the President of the Firefighters, Mr. McBride, John Kane from the Plumbers Union for the second panel -- for the third panel. Thank you, folks. Good afternoon. Identify yourself for the record and proceed with your testimony. If you have written testimony -- I know Nora's came in. I don't have George Gould.

I don't have testimony.

I do.

Can I just start, identify myself and do my testimony?

Absolutely.

My name is Nora 91 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 Lichtash. I work with the Women's Community Revitalization Project, and at WCRP, we build and rehab housing and we also work with others to make sure that policies make sense for families in the neighborhood, especially housing policies. I'm here to speak in support of the proposed ordinance to amend the Philadelphia Building Code by providing for the use of plastic pipe in certain circumstances, and the reason I'm here is based on my experience in affordable housing. I've been doing it for more than years, and WCRP has been building 17 affordable housing with union labor for 18 all that time. 19 I believe the passage of this 20 ordinance will make it easier for groups like ours to build more affordable housing, which is desperately needed. But there's also an opportunity here in addition for fighting for lower costs for construction. There's an opportunity to 92 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 use this investment to leverage additional resources for affordable housing, and that's really why I'm here. Councilman Clarke, along with many of you -- and we really appreciate it -- have paved a way for this to happen. When you've passed the first part of the inclusionary housing bill in December '07, this bill required market-rate developers to include affordable housing in their developments or contribute to the City's Housing Trust Fund to support the creation and preservation of affordable housing. But what we know is that inclusionary housing won't take place, this bill doesn't work unless you in Council pass a companion piece of legislation that provides incentives for developers. And all inclusionary housing has to have these incentives, and we're totally in support of those incentives. WCRP, in coalition with some other folks from the Philadelphia 93 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 Campaign for Housing Justice, believe that this proposed legislation should be combined with other incentives to trigger the implementation of inclusionary housing. We recommend additional incentives, such as expedited permitting, density bonuses and reduction of parking requirements. Once inclusionary housing is implemented, it will provide much-needed housing resources. There's just so many folks -- I know all of you know -- in your districts and throughout the City who need more and better affordable housing, rental homeownership and home repair, and that's just one program I wanted to talk about for a minute. A group of advocates last week unveiled a report that showed that the Basic Systems Repair and preserving housing is really important, that we're losing more housing to abandonment than we are to foreclosure, which is pretty startling here in Philly. And we know 94 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 that the City program that deals with this, called BSRP, the average grant is 7,000. So if we don't start putting money into the Housing Trust Fund and more resources into affordable housing, then we're stuck with a bigger problem down the road, because if we don't keep houses fixed up with 7,000, it costs us 22,000, everyone in here, taxpayers, 22,000 to knock down a house. If a family can't stay in their house because it's not in good enough shape, it costs us 21,000 to keep a family in shelter. If our parents, senior citizens, people disabled have to move out of their house because they can't stay in a house because it's not in decent shape, it costs 40,000 to us in the City to keep them in there. So that's why I'm talking about this. As a developer, I recognize the value of lowering costs of development, but we need to combine these kind of incentives with sound policy, like 95 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 inclusionary housing, to create more resources for affordable housing. Thanks.

Thank you.

Good afternoon, Committee members. Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to testify today on the proposed ordinance to allow PVC piping to be used in construction and renovation projects. My name is Jannine Miller and I'm the Coordinator of Education Advocacy at Project HOME and I'm also on the Steering Committee of the Philadelphia Campaign for Housing Justice. I'm here today to offer a perspective on how this bill can be used as an incentive to implement inclusionary housing in Philadelphia. Thanks to the leadership of Councilman Clarke, we are very close to having an effective inclusionary housing program in the City. Back in December 2007, so over a year ago, City Council 96 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 passed Bill No. 071005-A, which established an inclusionary housing program. Unfortunately, this important bill will not take effect until the City passes a companion bill of incentives or cost offsets for housing developers. The Philadelphia Campaign for Housing Justice -- and we're a coalition of about 35 City-based organizations. Our members, constituents, clients, we total more than 100,000 people -- support inclusionary housing as just one method for the City to address the current affordable housing crisis. Councilman Clarke's legislation on PVC pipe is a step towards the need of incentives if it ultimately becomes part of a larger incentive package. In addition to the use of PVC piping, there are other developer incentives that the City should consider. Back in May, in May 2008, the Building Industry Association suggested other incentives in a report that they 97 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 put out. These suggestions included expedited permitting and processing, reduced parking requirements, tax credits for the business privilege tax, and also density bonuses. So these are some other things that could be considered as part of that package. In addition to providing the comprehensive homeless services that Project HOME is so well known for, we also have partnered with community residents and local businesses and community leaders to address the root causes of homelessness up in North Central Philadelphia, up in Councilman Clarke's district. That area is known as the St. Elizabeth/Diamond Street neighborhood. We have rehabbed and sold a total of 43 houses to first-time homeowners as part of our neighborhood revitalization efforts. We are always seeking ways to reduce our costs and improve our efficiency. We understand that the use of 98 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 PVC pipe will reduce construction costs and hopefully pave the way for additional lower costs but, equally effective, mechanical and conveyance systems that can be used in housing development and also in green construction. It's critical to make sure that this cost reduction measure is combined with measures that will ensure the implementation of inclusionary housing. More than one-third of Philadelphia households earn less than $20,000 a year, and the median income for a family of four is just $33,000. Project HOME and the Philadelphia Campaign for Housing Justice encourages City Council to finish the inclusionary housing bill so that our city can create the needed housing that is affordable to low- and moderate-income Philadelphians, their families, senior citizens and people with disabilities. I appreciate the opportunity to testify today on this matter and also for 99 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 your leadership on the issue. Please don't hesitate to contact us at any time if we can be helpful. Thank you.

Good afternoon. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, for giving us the opportunity to testify today. I don't want to repeat what has been said, but I am -- my name, by the way, is George Gould. I'm with Community Legal Services and I'm counsel for the Campaign for Housing Justice. What I wanted to do was simply reiterate the importance of City Council passing incentives, which trigger the inclusionary housing bill, which was passed in the end of 2007. As everyone is aware, that bill -- that program is in place, but because the incentives are not in place, affordable housing is not being built under it and money is not being contributed to the Housing Trust Fund. What we would like is that this kind of a program, which creates a clear 100 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 incentive to developers and reduces their cost, with several of the other incentives, be made clear in an ordinance 5 that this is the trigger and because of that trigger, the inclusionary housing program is passed and is actually implemented. The problems of lack of affordable housing in this city, we certainly don't have to repeat. Everyone is aware that it's virtually impossible to get into public housing. It's virtually impossible to get Section 8. It's extraordinarily difficult to get into any subsidized housing developments. It's very difficult for people who are even above those income guidelines to find decent housing, and what we need and what we need very quickly is those incentives to be passed and the City Council to make it clear that the incentives are in place and the inclusionary housing program starts. Thank you. 101 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953

We have Mr. Zaslow.

Thank you, Madam Chairman. Madam Chairman, Darrell Zaslow, legal counsel for HAPCO, the Homeowners Association of Philadelphia. As you may be aware, HAPCO represents approximately 3,000 owners and managers of rental real estate in the City, representing tens of thousands of housing units throughout the City of Philadelphia. We are here today in support of Councilman Clarke's bill, and our support arises out of the same reasons that PVC piping has been permitted in cities across the country. The cost savings is obviously significant. Now, our members are not generally involved in construction of new homes, but we are frequently -- in fact, constantly -- called upon to replace plumbing in existing properties, which we offer for rent. These significant savings in 102 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 allowing PVC will make it easier for property owners to keep rents at a reasonable level, and both landlords and tenants will realize a significant benefit. Madam Chairwoman, it is highly unusual for my very good friend and arch nemesis in the law, George Gould, with whom I have battled incessantly for over 30 years --

That's why I sat you guys together.

Yes. I see that. For us to sit at the same table joining in recommending this bill to you, I would submit, is significant. The Committee may be aware and should be aware of the very extensive criminal activity which surrounds copper piping in housing. As soon as a house becomes vacant, Madam Chairwoman, as soon as a house becomes vacant, waiting for a new tenant of my owners to move in, the houses are targeted by the copper piping 103 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 thieves. We are constantly subjected to theft of all the copper and all of the fittings from a house. I will share with you personally that I have experienced theft of all the piping and fittings from one house two times in the last months 8 in the 19146 zip code. The same house, 9 twice in 12 months. Refitted the entire 10 house. It had to be completely refitted 11 because of the thievery. 12 Now, the police are busy, and they take a report. They don't really take any further action. We understand. There's significant issues --

Excuse me, folks, please.

Thank you. The police are busy and for them to come to an apartment house and worry about copper piping which has been stolen, there's a great deal more going on from their perspective that we need their services on. But the result is a house which is killed by vandalism. 104 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 The thieves, for a very modest amount, wherever they get the money for their copper that they sell, despite the efforts of this Council to forbid that kind of activity, for a few dollars, they absolutely destroy a house. And the negative impact is just not compensable. You don't go to your insurance company for a thousand-dollar bill. You have a deductible and then you have claims, which your premiums are going to go up. Now, a Google search, Madam Chairwoman, revealed that almost every city in the country has faced this same problem. And the news articles, which I perused this morning before coming here, is always the same. And Chicago is the first one that comes up. It's typical. And here's what the news reports read: "After years of yielding to political pressure from the Plumbers Union, the Chicago City Council finally approved the use of PVC pipe." That was back in 1990. Now, in my organization, we 105 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 need plumbers desperately. We are a consumer of the services provided by our plumbers. We need competent plumbers, and we will always need plumbers. But enactment of this bill is not going to prohibit anyone from using cast iron or copper. Certain owners may still prefer those materials, and certain plumbers may well be able to convince a developer or a builder or a property owner who needs to renovate a property that they should not use PVC. And nothing in the bill is forbidding the use of copper, but the choice should be with the property owners. Madam Chairwoman, given the enormity of the fiscal problems facing our city and the newest proposals which we're just hearing about to raise the taxes on our property owners, and this honorable Council, I understand, tomorrow is going to be faced -- I wish you good luck dealing with what you need to deal with with proposals to start raising our 106 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 property taxes. Anything that can be done to minimize the cost to property owners providing decent housing to low- and moderate-income individuals should be supported by this Committee and the Council. We thank Councilman Clarke for introducing the bill, having the fortitude to stand as the sole Councilmember introducing such a bill and to stand the onslaught which obviously comes into this Chamber. We thank you very much for your consideration.

Thank you. Any questions from the members of the Committee to the panel? The Chair recognizes Councilman Kelly.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to know -- I heard a lot about affordable housing. I just 107 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 want to know, how much is affordable housing? What kind of perimeters do we have here? What is affordable housing? Can anyone answer that?

Well, I think the word "affordable housing" is used to describe a lot of things, but really "affordable" is based on your income. So if my income were $20,000, I could afford $500 in rent or mortgage a month. I should be paying roughly no more than 30 percent of my income.

Well, I'm looking at a developer's point of view building these homes. What's it going to cost him to build it?

Well, I think this is one reason why we're here. The cost of housing is very -- to build a house is high.

I understand that, but I'm wondering, are there any current construction of affordable housing going on now, and, if so, what 108 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 are they charging for that housing?

Well, I do rental housing. I don't know if there's anyone who wants to answer for homeownership, but I think roughly a house that goes under a homeownership program that is subsidized in this city can cost anywhere from like 80,000 to 105,000. The rents for the units that my organization builds start at $90 a month and go up to $550 a month.

Point of information. I think, Nora, if you have this experience, I think the Councilman is asking, how much does it cost to build a new unit in the City, not what you actually sell it for.

Sure. It costs more than $200,000 often, depending on subsurface conditions.

And how much would a person have to put out in a monthly mortgage payment for that? 109 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953

Well, that's what I'm saying. I don't do much homeownership, but roughly if you sold your house for 85,000, I don't know, is the mortgage about 500? I don't know. Depending on the interest rate.

Councilman, if I can.

Yes. Councilman Clarke.

Thank you. Councilman, I want to give you an example, and this is probably on the high side. The Philadelphia Housing Authority has built a number of developments, both homeownership and rental, in the last couple of years, and they probably -- their construction cost is probably the highest among most non-profits, because they build things -- they maximize it in terms of what they build. It's good stuff. Right now they are selling units for $160,000 in West Philadelphia 110 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 and in East Falls. In actually Ludlow 140, the units cost 300,000 to build, and that's where the problem is, is that --

Well, what kind of pipes are they using in that construction?

They are using the same as the Code. Because it's affordable, it doesn't -- (Audience members yelling.)

So, in other words, it is affordable?

Hold it, gentlemen. I said the Code. Gentlemen, please. I said they're building what the Code allows. The Code allows PVC, right? (Applause.)

But if -- and I wasn't going to say this, but if they build a house that is more than three stories or more than four units, they cannot use PVC. In the Housing Authority right now on Warnock Street in my district, they're building a building 111 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 that's higher than --

So, in other words, what you're saying is that affordable housing could not use PVC. Is that what you're saying?

No. This is the problem: More often than not, when it's affordable housing, the rental side of it is where the problem is, because the rental developments always have more than four units. So once you have a rental development, which most of the non-profits build, because that's where most of the funding is, they're always required to use copper and iron, because it's above the four-house unit. So the sale of those units only come into play when there's condominiums. Say, for instance, if a developer builds a 20-story condominium -- I see Mr. Orens. He built the one down at 22nd and Arch. Because that was above three stories and was more than four units, they had to build with 112 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 copper --

And most of those condominiums go well above 160,000.

Absolutely.

I'm sure of that.

Absolutely. (Applause.)

Councilman, you made my point. That's why we're trying to get the development community as a part of an agreement that require to build -- one of those for every 20, one of those units should be affordable, because the average person can't afford some of the units associated with those condominiums. That's the issue. That's the underlying issue.

Thank you, Councilman.

You're welcome.

Thank you, Madam Chair. 113 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953

Thank you. Any other questions to the panel? (No response.)

Thank you very much for coming. If we can now go to Brian McBride, John Kane, Walt Krzyzanowski, if it's okay with you, and up to Michael Ingram. And then we'll do Greg Simmons, Tim Brink, Bice LeVan and Sean Cleary. (Witnesses approached witness table.)

You can start. MR. McBRIDE: Councilwoman Sanchez, Councilwoman Krajewski, Councilwoman Reynolds Brown, Councilman Greenlee and Councilman Kelly, I'm Brian McBride, President of IAFF, Local 22, representing 2,000 active firefighters. The Fire Commissioner was here earlier, and no surprise to me, he took 114 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 the Administration's stance on this bill. But earlier today we shared a moment together up in Logan laying a plaque for a firefighter, Lieutenant Derrick Harvey, who lost his life in the line of duty January 15, 2004. That plaque cost $1,500. And we actually did them back in October. As Councilwoman Krajewski remembers, we did plaques back then for her uncle and ten other firefighters who lost their lives in an explosion. The cost of a firefighter funeral for an active-duty death is about $15,000. Then you have the cost involved with the benefits for his children and his widow, and a lot of that is funds raised by like the Hero Thrill Show and things like that. And the reason I'm going down this road about cost is because there's another cost involved, too: The cost of the widow and the children. It's a tough thing. It's a tough thing. I heard a lot about cost today. 115 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 What cost do you put on a life of a firefighter? I don't want to send my members home to say, I got a little brain cancer or a little liver cancer because a little PVC put out the toxic gas that's a known human carcinogen. It's there. It's there. The citizens of Philadelphia rely on this Council to protect them. You work for their safety, just like I do. The firefighters of the City of Philadelphia are all citizens. This Council's past laws on trans fats to protect the citizens, on smoking bans to protect the citizens, and a year or so ago Councilman Kelly introduced a bill for hearing protection for firefighters, which passed this Council, to protect our hearing, our health and safety. So when significantly heated, PVC-containing material releases vinyl chloride, exposing firefighters. Burning PVC is toxic to firefighters. You don't 116 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 get a little bit of cancer this way or a little bit of cancer that way. It's toxic. It's going to kill us. I can't tell you how much it bothered me that people were talking about cost before they were talking about safety. This is about safety, the safety of the firefighters and the citizens we serve. Choice? You have a choice. You have a choice. Protect the citizens. And then people coming up here and sitting and testifying justifying stuff like a smoke screen, burning lead and burning wood. I've been a firefighter for 34 years. I've never seen burning lead. Melting lead? Yes. Never seen burning lead. But you can't put -- you can't get a little cancer and you can't put a price on a life of a firefighter. You just can't do it. So I'm asking you -- I sent you all a letter with a mortality study. It clearly associates the toxic 117 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 fumes that burning PVC puts off to firefighter deaths very clearly, many studies, cited many cases. This is clearly bad stuff, and if I have my way, there would be none of it. (Applause.) MR. McBRIDE: So I'll ask the Council, Local respectfully requests 10 you reject this bill and protect the 11 firefighters. 12 Thank you. 13 (Applause.) 14

Madam Chair, good 15 afternoon. Members of City Council, good 16 afternoon. My name is John Kane, 17 registered master plumber, City of 18 Philadelphia, No. 4190, Business Manager 19 of Plumbers Local 690, City of 20 Philadelphia. 21 It gives me great pleasure to 22 speak on behalf of my entire membership of over 2,000. Plumbers Union Local 690 strongly opposes Councilman Clarke's Bill 25 080953, which would amend the 118 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 Philadelphia Plumbing Code by expanding the use of ABS plastic pipe and PVC plastic pipe, under certain terms and conditions. 5 allows ABS plastic pipe and PVC plastic pipe to be limited to installations in buildings containing dwelling units only. Such buildings shall consist from one to four families and shall not exceed three stories in height. For this purpose, basements are not considered a story height. On several occasions, Councilman Clarke and I have spoke about affordable housing. I got to agree with the Councilman, I felt our conversations to be very informative, and I appreciate that. For instance, the understanding that certain projects we're dedicating a portion for affordable housing. Taking 119 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 this into consideration, we believe that a compromise could be reached. 2, Underground Sanitary Drainage Pipe, we expanded to allow for thermal expansion in the underground system and also the manufacturer's specification of underground installation of plastic pipe. 5, we expanded the use from three stories to four stories and expanded it from one to four families to one to ten families. I believe this was a compromise that not only could I live with but also my membership. I must compliment the committee of plumbers that L&I formed, who worked tirelessly over this issue. It's not every day that union contractors and non-signatory contractors come to an agreement. I'm sorry to say the Councilman did not agree with our proposal. I have also spoken to 120 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 Councilman Clarke about the dangers of PVC. I believe that the Councilman has taken the lives of our firefighters, my members and the people that reside in this great city too lightly. I have brought with me a CD on the fire of the MGM Grand in Las Vegas, Nevada, which I find to be very frightening. I believe this video speaks volumes about PVC fueling a fire and the toxic fumes that killed most. We have major concerns with plastic pipe. These range from the glues and primers associated with the joining method that is required. The label on these containers of glues and primers state that long-term repeated overexposures to solvents may cause damage to the brain, nervous system, reproductive system, respiratory system, mucus membranes, liver and kidneys. Every day we hear that Philadelphia wants to be the largest green city. David Masur, Director of 121 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 PennEnvironment, is an advocate for a greener environment. He gave me information to pass on, which I have also in my pamphlet that I would like to give to you. PVC is known as the poison plastic. PVC plastic is one of the most hazardous consumer products ever created. PVC is dangerous to human health and the environment through its entire cycle. Think about the ten percent of wasted pipe figured on any plumbing project. Most ends up in a dumpster that goes into a landfill forever. PVC cannot be recycled due to many different toxic additives used to soften or stabilize PVC. Cast iron and copper, on the other hand, can be recycled. Most of our members are encouraged to scrap precious metals because of their scrap value. Cast iron and copper are sorted out and recycled at all scrap yards. If we are talking green, cast iron and copper are, hands down, greener for the environment. 122 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 If this city wants to talk the talk about going green, eliminate all PVC. Every member I represent made plumbing their career.

Overexposure to these toxins will become common practice, and future ailments will follow. I want to thank the PennEnvironment Director, David Masur, for the support and all the other individuals that are going to be testifying today for their support also. And I plead with the members of City Council to stand with the members of the plumbing community by opposing this bill 16 unanimously. Remember, plumbers protect the health of the nation. )

Good afternoon, Chairperson Quinones-Sanchez, Vice-Chairman Krajewski and members of City Council. Thank you for the opportunity to allow me to offer my opinions, my organization's opinions and the plumbing community regarding Bill No. 123 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 080953. My name is Walt Krzyzanowski. I'm a registered master plumber in the City of Philadelphia. My registration number is 2749. I am President of the Plumbing Contractors Association and the Union Affiliated Contractors of Local 690 and Vicinity. I am a member and a trustee of Plumbers Local 690. I'm an executive Board member and a past President of the Pennsylvania State Organization of Plumbing, Heating and Cooling Contractors. I am sure you will hear a great deal of testimony touching on many aspects of this bill, raising from the most important issue, which is consumer safety, to the negative economic impact to the building industry passing this legislation would cause. I am a second-generation City of Philadelphia master plumber. I have made the trade of plumbing my life and my career for well over 30 years. I'm proud to say that my son is a third-generation 124 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 master plumber and is carrying out the proud tradition of our family business that begun in 1956. In my years of the plumbing field, I have lived through and have been a part of many changes to the industry, some good, some not so good. I have studied the history of plumbing and have tracked the advancements made through the years to the industry through research development, trial and error, and the evaluation of cause and effect to each and every change to materials, installation procedures and Code changes. One thing has not changed in well over 100 years in the plumbing industry, and, that is, the universal belief that the plumber protects the health of the nation. In my discussions with Councilman Clarke, his main focus was on residential affordable housing and how it relates to the Plumbing Code in the City of Philadelphia. I have pointed out many 125 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 times to the Councilman that the use of PVC piping in residential housing is already permissible under our current Philadelphia Plumbing Code. The use of PVC piping is permitted in multi-dwelling units consisting of four family units or less and residential structures that do not exceed 30 feet in height. The members of my organization, the plumbing community, respectfully requests this City Council Committee to reject the aforementioned irresponsible and thoughtless legislation. We are against this legislation, first and foremost, based on the obvious and most important issue, which is the issue of safety. I am sure you will hear testimony today pointing out tremendous safety and health concerns with PVC being present in emergent situations such as a fire. When PVC is present in a fire situation, it drastically reduces the evacuation time of the occupants before 126 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 being overcome by very toxic chlorine gas and many other toxins which are emitted by PVC which is exposed to extreme heat and flame. The main focus of my testimony is to point out the negative economic impact adopting this legislation would have with expanding the use of PVC piping in commercial and high-rise applications. Many engineering and technical methods have to be followed when installing PVC pipe greater than 35 stories vertically. All of these methods involved increased costs. When installing PVC vertically, a device know as an expansion control fitting has to be installed in every 35-foot interval. Although the initial purchase price of PVC piping is considerably less than cast iron, the expansion control devices are very costly. The fire-stopping of PVC passing through floors and wall penetrations is also very costly.

The fire-stopping 127 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 materials and procedures last only a maximum of to years before they 4 have to be renewed. 5 PVC piping is not permitted in 6 many applications where it would be 7 exposed to a ventilation system. This 8 means increased costs would be incurred 9 by having to incapsulate the PVC piping 10 in a flame-proof barrier. 11 My company was recently 12 requested by an engineering firm to 13 evaluate the cost difference between PVC 14 versus cast iron installation at a job 15 site in Montgomery County. In Montgomery County where PVC piping is widespread, the use of PVC piping is widespread, a problem was noticed by a building inspector that PVC piping was present and would cause an adverse effect to the ventilation system in the building. Through research and evaluation, it was determined the installation of PVC piping would have increased the cost of over 30 percent over the use of cast iron piping 128 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 in the same installation. In conclusion, the use of PVC piping in commercial and high-rise applications would greatly increase the cost of the plumbing installation, reduce the longevity of the installation and compromise the health and safety of the occupants and the structure. My organization and the plumbing community are opposed to this legislation. We are not opposed to the responsible use of PVC piping, as currently described in the Philadelphia Plumbing Code. We also are not opposed to correctly exploring the possible expanded use of PVC piping. Councilman Clarke has made it clear to the plumbing community he is not concerned with the health and safety aspect of PVC piping. As professionals, we are very concerned. The ultimate goal of City Council, City L&I administration and the professional plumbing community should be 129 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 to protect the health, safety, as well as the rights of every citizen of this great city. That was my written testimony and thanks for hearing it. )

Thank you. I do have a couple points I would like to point out as to the testimony of some of the other panel people. First, the gentleman from Westrum stated that there was a potential million-dollar savings to a development that they were considered to build. If PVC piping was able to be used in that particular situation, would Westrum then give that million-dollar savings back to the buyers? (Applause.)

The Fire Commissioner stated that his people have advanced gear and breathing apparatus going into a fire situation. That's no 130 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 doubt. And as a result of many years of effort, the firefighters are protected. The concern that we have is, what about the people in the building? They don't have breathing apparatus. And if you want to put PVC in a 30-story high-rise condominium, how is the people on the 30th floor going to make it to the basement or to outside to escape the flames without that breathing apparatus? That's all I have. Thank you very much. (Applause.)

Good afternoon, Councilwoman Sanchez and Committee. My name is Michael Ingram, registered master plumber, President of Master Plumbers Association, Second Vice of Pennsylvania Plumbing, Heating, Cooling Contractors Association. I would like to thank you for this opportunity to speak on behalf of the Educational Development Committee. The Educational Development 131 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 Committee was put in place by the Department of License and Inspection Plumbing Unit in order to take the existing plumbers examination and have it computerized. The Committee is a cross-section of industry-specific representative such as union, non-union, administrative, field personnel, instructors, code enforcers, plan examiners and business owners, all under the auspice of the International Code Council. We have met on numerous occasions, given up valuable time, revenue and energy on behalf of the Committee. Those who teach the Plumbing Code has signed non-disclosure statements which caused them to pass up additional income for the work that they perform on behalf of this Committee. This product has been developed and delivered to allow future journey persons and master plumbers the ability to be tested at designated computer centers. 132 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 Members of the Committee have met with Councilman Clarke to support his efforts on broadening the use of PVC. We reviewed his concerns and agree that the responsible use of PVC in residential and possibly some mixed properties are not only acceptable but desired. However, avoid PVC in the use in the commercial environment. Again, this Committee carries this assignment on behalf of the Department, which we have received no 14 compensation from the City, which was mutual, to perform these services. As you're aware, we're lacking in the number of field inspectors due to internal policy procedures and mandates. Also, we no longer have a Plumbing Advisory Board to address issues such as these. We have high regards for our profession, protecting the health and safety of the nation, particularly the City of Philadelphia. We are asking for 133 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 your support for recreating the Plumbing Advisory Board or a recognized body to deal with the issues such as this and other problems, changes or concerns dealing with the Plumbing Code. We have expressed -- (Applause.)

We have expressed with License and Inspection Commissioner Fran Burns and Deputy Commissioner Mike Fink that the members of the Advisory Committee are willing to carry out the functions and duties of the previous Board in a progressive, financially sound and ecological fashion without being compensated, such as we have with the Waterfront Commission and the meeting we had yesterday with the Mayor's Advisory Commission on Construction Industry Diversity. We're willing to carry this out at no compensation. We wish, in a harmonious environment, to be the committee that would be the liaison between the government, industry and 134 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 business. Thank you for your time and attention on this matter. Thank you. (Applause.)

Thank you. I want to recognize Councilwoman Blondell Reynolds Brown.

Thank you, gentlemen, for your testimony, and thank you for the additional enlightenment. What I hear on this notion or expectation of being green is that both sides believe that the use of their particular material at the end of the day based on documented research, Mr. Kane, is green. Would that be fair to say?

It's far greener than PVC pipe and ABS pipe. Cast iron and copper, yes.

Are you going to submit copies of your testimony so that we can have -- 135 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953

I'll be glad to.

-- the background from the University of Pennsylvania? The committee that you spoke of, are you suggesting in your testimony that had this committee been in place, we may be at a different place with regards to finding some common ground on this particular issue?

Exactly.

When was the committee disbanded?

It has not been disbanded. We are in concert with the Commissioner to formulate and to come up with its title, and that's where we are currently.

Okay. Help me out with that. So it's a function of your profession, correct?

Correct.

It's not a function of City government? 136 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953

Right. That's correct.

Have you advised government on -- you then advise government or work with professionals in L&I around matters of this type to find some common ground?

Right. It initially started out as a testing committee, and because the harmony that the group has accomplished over the months, that we felt that this could carry on into another area, replacing what was taken from us, and that's the Plumbing Advisory Board. That we feel that with the cross-section of industry and the vast knowledge and experience, that we could continue and deal with some of the issues to help the Department out, because our profession is being challenged with the lack of inspections and the lack of a process such as this. We can get this done, not in a cost fashion of this nature. 137 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953

What was the name of the committee prior to --

The Educational Development Committee. Prior to the -- no; subsequent to the Plumbing Advisory Board.

Which exists now?

The Educational Development Committee.

And that is the committee you believe, if still in place, would help find some common ground; is that what I'm hearing?

Exactly. Exactly.

Some additional questions here. Mr. Walter -- I don't want to mess up your last name -- on your testimony, you say, "Although the initial purchase" -- that's not it. The one where you talk about -- last page of your testimony. "We're not opposed to the responsible use of PVC piping." What 138 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 would you consider responsible?

What we would consider the responsible use of PVC piping is already spelled out in the Philadelphia Plumbing Code, and that is what has been adhered to over the last 30 years when PVC was introduced into our marketplace.

And I'm not a plumber, let the record show, but I am interested in knowing what the Code reads. So what does it read? Somewhere in the testimony it was mentioned.

The Code specifically reads now is the use of PVC is allowed in residential dwellings that are from single-family dwelling to a maximum of four-dwelling units. So four families per one building. And a maximum of 30 stories in height -- I apologize. A maximum of three stories in height.

Wow. Not 30. Okay. Then you say, "We are not 139 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 opposed to correctly exploring the possible expanded use of PVC piping." What would that be, "possible expanded use of PVC piping"?

Councilwoman, what that would include would be possibly expanding the use of PVC piping in the light commercial applications --

In the who, what?

Expanding the use of PVC piping into certain light commercial applications. But the Committee would have to evaluate the cause and effect of a potential change, a potential change like being introduced by Councilman Clarke. He doesn't exactly do the research to evaluate the cause and effect. And what I mean by that is, what the cause of this change, the effect it would actually have on the consumers of Philadelphia. In our opinion and the research that we've developed, it would 140 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 actually have an adverse effect.

On the health, which is the --

And also the economic effect. Because done correctly, no one before us on the panel talked about PVC piping, talked about the installation procedures, that PVC piping, if it's installed as per manufacturer's specifications, the preparation work to put it in the ground increases the cost threefold as opposed to using cast iron pipe in the ground.

So is that to suggest that the cost could be close to equal once you factor in installation?

The cost could either be equal or in some instances more, cost more to use PVC piping. See, the dissimilarities end when you go -- when any of us in the professional community here go into a plumbing supply house and we buy ten foot 141 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 of four-inch PVC that costs $25 versus a ten-feet length of four-inch cast iron that costs $60 or $70. That is where the dissimilarities end. None of the people that have testified before us had testified to the installation procedures for PVC and PEX tubing, that it actually costs more and it's more labor intensive to install this particular type of material in most instances between support, over-excavating a trench, having to dispose of the spoils that goes into a landfill, the fireproofing aspect of it. So in the opinion of the professional community and the research that we've done, we have demonstrated that in most instances it does cost more to install the PVC piping. It certainly costs less to buy it, but it certainly costs more to install it.

Thank you very much for your testimony.

The Chair recognizes Councilman Clarke. 142 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953

Thank you, Madam Chair. Good afternoon, gentlemen. Again, I just want to reiterate, it's been a pleasure working with you all on those many, many weeks and months, and it was refreshing. Unfortunately, we are -- and I wouldn't even call it adversarial, because I believe we agree on more than we disagree. It's a case with respect to the numbers in terms of how far we should go. So we all agree that we should do something. I do want to say that I do take exception with a couple of statements that were made about me not caring about the health and safety of the citizens. I take exception with that, because at no 20 time obviously did I say that and --

I'm quoting you, Councilman.

See, now we're not going to have -- I never said that, and I never had a meeting with you 143 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 alone, so if anybody else can sit here and say I did that --

I've had Mr. Ingram, Mr. McStravick, Mr. Kane were present at the same meeting.

Sir, I never said that. I am a Councilmember. I would consider myself a responsible member of government, and I would never say that I don't care about the health and safety of the citizens. That is like utterly ridiculous. The other issue with respect to the million dollars, if somehow it was a million dollars realized as a result of the savings, you need to understand that the only way -- and this is what the advocates were getting at -- that I'd be supportive of this initiative being in place is if it gets us to affordable housing. So if there's a cost savings of a million dollars, it's not going, frankly speaking, to somebody's pocket or to -- it's going to go to affordable 144 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 housing. That's my game plan. (Audience members yelling.)

Excuse me, folks.

So the savings associated with the development reduction in cost, be it whatever, PVC or whatever, that's the purpose of doing that, so you can build affordable housing. Because all affordable housing is going to have to be subsidized. So we wouldn't do this just so people could benefit financially. That's just not our game plan. With respect to the installation -- and we had lengthy discussions with you about that, and that's again where you guys gave me some insight and knowledge about the installation -- the higher you go, the more expensive that it costs, and I confirmed that with other people, because I believe in checking all sources. What we're simply saying is that people should 145 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 have that option. If somehow the developer figures, If I go eight stories, this is not cost effective, I'm assuming that if this is the developer that has any sense of business, he'd opt to go a different direction and install cast iron. So what we're saying, we're not requiring that they do PVC or any other material. We're just simply trying to give people an option. You referenced the fact in the suburban area where they installed it and they found out that, You know what, this is not working for us the way it was installed. Then that person made that choice, right, so, therefore, that's on that person. So all we're talking about is giving people options. And I want to again say that based on the installation issue that we talked about at length, I understand the further you go up, the more skill sets you should have, and I 146 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 agree with that. And I talked about the fact that -- and I didn't know how we were going to do it, but ensuring that there was language that made sure that the installation reflected all of the issues, both safety and longevity, and ensuring that the skill set associated with that installer is inserted in the bill. So I say all that to say that there is a lot of things that we agree on. It just happens that the thing that we don't agree on seems to be relatively large. But, again, I just want to thank you all for your testimony. Thanks for meeting. I look forward to continuing to work with you. And I haven't forgotten the plumbers issue with respect to the Advisory Council, because I do agree, it would have been a lot easier to have this dialogue, because maybe the layperson, which is me, wouldn't have been in the particular 147 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 equation, because I could have been depending on that Advisory Council. So I'm prepared to continue to work with you on that.

Thank you.

Madam Chairperson, may I ask Councilman Clarke a question?

That's not usually the way we do it here. I don't know. That's up to Councilman Clarke.

That's okay.

Well, I have an observation. May I make an observation?

That's okay.

Councilman -- I'm sorry. May I be recognized?

Yes, 148 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 please.

Thank you. Councilman, you say you want the people to have the right and the ability to make that choice. My question to you is, without the proper education and the proper knowledge of the product, how would the average person be able to make an informed choice or decision? Don't you think it's the responsibility of City Council, the Administration and this professional community to protect them people that don't have the training and education that we do? (Applause.)

See, this is why we don't normally allow you all to ask questions. No, I don't have a problem with responding and I don't have a problem --

I have to acknowledge that Councilman Clarke was being gracious in allowing --

That will 149 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 be the last question, sir. You know, I think -- well, first of all, the development community is keenly aware -- I mean, they understand this business obviously more than me and as much as you guys, and if you're talking about the everyday average citizen, then I have no problem with ensuring that there's an educational process. My understanding as it relates to -- because I asked about laterals and this whole underground issue, is that the Code currently is silent on that issue. So it doesn't necessarily say you can't use it or you can use it. And having been a person that just had to have a lateral installed, because I had somebody sold me a house that had a lead lateral in there and the thing broke and I had to it get replaced, now the plumber comes out, did a good job, but he told me he had to put cast iron in there, but my understanding based on the silent 150 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 language, that person could have put PVC in there if they opted.

Councilman, it's clearly defined in the Plumbing Code.

I asked that question as recent as yesterday from the Water Department, and that's what I got. That's what I'm saying, in the educational thing, I'm like, could I or can't I? People are saying, We're not sure. It doesn't say.

It's very clearly defined in the Code.

Let me say, what they did, they say traditionally when it's silent in the Philadelphia Code, the plumbers or any other trade -- I don't want to talk about just the plumbers -- will opt to adopt their own code. So the Plumbing Code says you put cast iron, but the Philadelphia Code says nothing about that issue. And that's what I'm saying, there's some uncertainty 151 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 in all of this. I'm just telling you what I was told by the City, because I asked that question.

I apologize, but I'm still unclear as to what you're asking us.

I wasn't asking you anything. I was just making -- you asked the question.

Can I ask one more question?

No. 14

No. 15

I got a million of them.

After the hearing.

We have another panel. With all due respect to the author of the bill, the Public Safety Committee has a session scheduled at 3 o'clock. So for those of you who have come in, the Committee on Public Safety 152 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 will be meeting soon after we recess. I want to recognize Councilman Kelly, who had a point.

Right. Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll make this very, very quick. I know we're in constraints with time. I just have a question about -- you mentioned, Mr. Krzyzanowski -- is that correct?

Yes, sir.

In your testimony you mentioned something about durability. Could you give me a comparison of the durability between PVC and cast iron, for instance? How durable is it?

Well, the durability versus PVC versus cast iron as a specific example, when it is to be buried in an underground excavation, PVC installed as per manufacturer specification, the excavation has to be 153 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 over-dug by one foot and it has to be -- there has to be an encapsulation process of special specific fill one foot below the PVC piping and one foot above the PVC piping before the original ditch spoils can be placed back into the hole. Now, that increases the cost by threefold by the carting cost to remove the spoils for the excavation, by purchasing the clean fill spoil -- or the clean fill to put back around it, and that's simply --

Well, my question is, how long before you have to replace this PVC?

Excuse me, Councilman. The service life on a cast iron pipe most of the time will outdo a building that it's actually in. From my understanding, that the crush factor on cast iron pipe is three times to 1,000 times -- I'm sorry; 300 to 1,000 times stronger than PVC pipe.

Okay.

That was the main 154 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 reason when we were talking about the underground piping in a trench, we wanted to make sure that it was on a bed of modified and it also had at least one foot of sand surrounding it to give it that compaction.

Okay. You answered my question. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Mr. Kane.

Thank you. Mr. Kane, the amendment that was recently circulated by Councilman Clarke, does that address some of the concerns that you specified in your testimony?

The concerns that I have is height restriction. When I've sat down and we've talked about height, the Committee and myself, fortunately or unfortunately, were unable to come up with a height. We decided four stories was reasonable. Most of the houses in 155 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 the City of Philadelphia that has four stories is a loft or an attic, and we felt as though that a person that's in a fire could get out running down steps. When you go up to expanding it to possibility five stories, six stories or above, now we're talking -- we're taking into consideration elevators. That's a concern for us at that point, because an individual may end up dying by the time they get down there because of the fire hazard.

Okay. Thank you. I want to recognize Councilman Green.

I just want to make sure I understand where you are, and, that is, up to four stories in height with up to ten dwelling units?

That was the compromise that we brought back to Councilman Clarke, yes.

What's the 156 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 difference between where you currently are and --

We expanded it one story, from three stories to four stories, from one to four-family dwellings to one to ten-family dwellings. We also allowed the underground PVC to be installed as long as you use, I think it's, the ASTM 2321 installation and thermal expansion also.

Do you have any evidence on the cost to homeowners of how often plumbing breaks, if it costs more over the life of the home because you're using an inferior product versus the going cost, which makes it for -- slightly less to buy a property but costs more to maintain, sort of like putting in a cheap air conditioning unit or an expensive air conditioning unit? Is there any evidence or criteria that it pays for itself over time?

Councilman, that basically works in concert with the 157 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 method of installation. If the method of installation is done correctly, the longevity will be greater with either material that you use.

Okay. Thank you.

Councilwoman Reynolds.

Please tell me the name of this committee again. I can't resist this opportunity here.

The Philadelphia Plumbing Test Development Committee.

I cannot resist this opportunity. I will ask you and Pat Gillespie, if you could, to please find a way to put the recruitment, orientation and training of women on that committee so that we could see some gender mix in these hearings going forward with your union. It's a joke. Thank you very much. 158 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953

Thank you. We have another panel that includes Jim McStravick, Greg Simmons, Tim Brink -- MR. McSTRAVICK: Excuse me. There's still two people on this panel who haven't testified.

They're on the next panel.

All right. Jim McStravick, Greg Simmons, Tim Brink, Bice LeVan and Sean Cleary. So thank you to the panel. If we can move on to the other panel again. If you have written testimony, we can submit it into for the record. If you can summarize it, we'll greatly appreciate it. The Committee on Public Safety is waiting for their session. MR. McSTRAVICK: Good afternoon. Thank you for allowing me to present this testimony to you. My name is James McStravick, plumbing contractor 159 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 for the last years. I'm only going to be focusing on --

Excuse 6 me. 7 If folks could quiet down. 8 Thank you. 9 MR. McSTRAVICK: Just so you 10 understand, I'm only going to be focusing 11 on PEX water lines, and what PEX water 12 lines are are your water distribution 13 systems that are being installed. In 14 this green book, please follow along with 15 me, and I'm going to try -- I did 16 extensive research and I'm going to drop 17 a bomb on the PEX industry today that 18 they know is coming. 19 Table -- and every plumber in 20 this room will know that every material 21 leaches, and I have documentation on 22 that. 23 Tab 1 -- and I'm not going to 24 go through this. It's PEX information 25 and what PEX is. You can read that at 160 1 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 your leisure. Tab 2, materials used for water distribution systems contributing to taste and odor. This report was done by Oakland University in Rochester. " If you flip the page and you go to polyethylene HTPE, PEX, there is a list of 30 components that leach. I underlined Bisphenol A, and from here on, it will be called BPA. " That is another leaching effect of PEX. If you go to the next green tab from Plumbing Contractor, the second page, "In contrast, HTPE consumes low amounts of residual disinfectant and released only one point milliliter of organic compound. " The next green tab. And I'm going to page through here. It should be page -- the last page of the report. "When looking into the house installation, the picture will be quite 162 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 different from the main pipes in regard to the leakage of VOCs from pipe material given water, taste and odor and also with regard to the growth due to the VOCs. " All this information I'm giving you is current as of '08 and into '09. The next tab, January 31, 2008. " I'm not going to try to repeat myself. I want to keep going. I did extensive research on this. 163 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 The next report, Chemical Accident Reconstruction Service, I actually spoke to this gentleman yesterday. "My company was hired to investigate the organic impurities that were appearing in newly constructed custom homes valued at one-half million dollars and up. D. in physical chemistry. He again found MTBE. This letter is addressed to NSF and he's asking NSF for answers. "This corresponds to about 100 parts per billion of chemical per a 24-hour period. I reviewed NSF 61 and understand that MTBE is not even considered in NSF 61. " The next page, "I also believe that new homes plumbed with PEX should automatically be equipped with a drinking water purification system as part of the PEX plumbing in the house. " Again, he is repeating that MTBE leaches. "

Can we quickly summarize? I hate to be rude. I know you did a lot of work. We have the materials, but please -- MR. McSTRAVICK: I'm almost there.

Point of information. Is PEX piping part of the proposal by Councilman Clarke? MR. McSTRAVICK: Yes.

Is that the same -- PVC and PEX are interchangeable? MR. McSTRAVICK: PVC is for domestic water lines. The PVC and ABS 165 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 are drainage components. I'm getting to my point very quickly and then I'll summarize.

Thank you. MR. McSTRAVICK: Tab 3 is a question that I asked myself, and that's what made me make this book. A homeowner asked a question, Is cross-linked polyethylene but have yet to determine if BPA is used in the manufacturing of this material. Dr. Frederick Von Saal answers, "Additives to plastic are not reported, and, in fact, in the U.S., this information is protected by confidentiality legislation." We need laws to prevent people from this -- "we need laws to provide people with this information." BPA is a leaching effect in PEX. NSF, who tests the material, on their website -- and it's in the front page of your book on Section 2 and Plumbing Engineering, they are no longer 166 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 looking for BPA.

I have another point of information. I'm reading the bill. It says ABS and PVC plastic may be used for the following, to the full extent permitted by the International Plumbing Code. It doesn't talk about PEX. MR. McSTRAVICK: It talks about water lines, water distribution systems.

Yeah, but you could only use ABS or PVC. MR. McSTRAVICK: You don't use ABS or PVC for domestic water. You use --

This bill 18 appears only to speak to the use of ABS or PVC, though. That's what's confusing me. In other words, I am not sure your testimony is relevant. MR. McSTRAVICK: The bill that I have says "and domestic water lines."

Can we ask the bill sponsor for clarification, 167 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 or someone from L&I?

I don't see it there. If it's there, even though I don't see it, I will take it out. I mean, that's not the intent of the bill, to deal with PEX. I don't see it in the bill, but if you say it's there, show me where it is. I don't have a problem. As you know, I've been -- I mean, we've had this cooperative dialogue throughout this process. So I think I've shown the willingness to be flexible. So if you show me where there's an issue, beyond the numbers, because the numbers are where we are, which is the issue, because with respect to health and safety, I think the facts are what they are, but the numbers issues, that's something that we have to talk about. You don't have to go through the entire document. Just afterwards you could just show me where that's at.

Can you give us some closing statements to wrap 168 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 up, because you did do a lot of work and we do appreciate it. MR. McSTRAVICK: I don't need the closing arguments if he's going to not have domestic water lines in the system. If that's going to be removed from the bill, I have no problem with this.

Councilman. (Applause.)

Thank you. Our next witness, please.

My name is Sean Cleary. I'm a licensed master plumber and I'm a field representative for the International Association of Plumbing and Mechanical Officials. I'm also a past international President of the American Society of Sanitary Engineers. I would like to thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today concerning this important subject. 169 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 Decisions made by this Council will have a far-reaching impact on the health, safety and quality of life of not only the residents of this city, but also of visitors to Philadelphia and the individuals involved in the construction and maintenance of residential and commercial buildings throughout this great city. With the current economic situation in the City of Philadelphia and, in truth, across the State of Pennsylvania and the nation, it makes sense to look for ways to cut costs and find savings anywhere possible. That being said, the answers to these fiscal problems will not be corrected by weakening the Philadelphia Plumbing Code and construction standards or by reducing the number of City plumbing inspectors far below the number required to perform these vital city services. The current City of 170 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 Philadelphia Plumbing Code is a unique document, written to serve the needs of a unique city. It has stood the test of time and, with updates, will continue to protect the health and safety of the people within its jurisdiction. As the largest city in Philadelphia, Philadelphia has many challenges not faced by smaller municipalities throughout the state. Buildings are taller, population centers more dense, systems more complex and public services, including fire protection, mass transit, along with maintaining the municipal water and sewer systems, more critical. The idea has been floated that perhaps it is time to do away with the Philadelphia Plumbing Code. People have said that the City should adopt a model code that is referenced in Act 45, the State Uniform Construction Code. When the State Assembly passed Act 45, they widely recognized that it was not a 171 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 one-size-fit-all situation. That is why they excluded both Philadelphia and Allegheny County from the mandate. In truth, the Assembly wrote into the legislation wording which allows municipalities that had amendments already enacted in their jurisdictions to maintain them to address special circumstances and concerns. Many areas throughout the state, including Scranton, Erie, Harrisburg and Wilkes-Barre, have in place specific requirements and amendments to the model codes. The argument that Philadelphia is the only area in the State of Pennsylvania not enforcing the same requirements is false and is being spread by people who are either uninformed or trying to mislead the public. A number of news articles have been written, leaving readers with the impression that if the City allowed the Code to be changed to permit the installation of PVC pipe on a larger 172 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 scale, it would vastly reduce the cost of both housing and commercial building in the City and spur development almost overnight. The savings in both labor and materials would allow construction costs to be greatly reduced. Anyone with a working knowledge of construction materials and proper installation practices knows the truth is a little more complicated than the per-foot price of the material. As a person with over 30 years experience in the plumbing industry working on projects from single-family housing to prisons and power plants, I can tell you that material cost is only a small part of the overall construction budget. When looking at piping materials, a number of factors need to be considered. Also, another important consideration is the health and safety of both the installers and the end users.

Material price should never be the 173 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 primary consideration when deciding on the suitability of a project or system within a building project. When you look at piping materials, there are many factors to be considered, and each project has -- each product has special requirements and limitations that must be evaluated. Considerations include things like noise, installation value, hanger requirements, proper fire-stopping and material expansion. When these factors are considered in many cases, it becomes less expensive to install cast iron pipe when compared to the installation cost of PVC pipe. Another concern is for the trade people doing the installation. When you add the safety concerns that arise when PVC pipe is not correctly installed or workers are not given the proper training or the required personal protection equipment, including special gloves to protect their skin from the 174 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 chemicals required to join the material, it is easy to see that this is not a black and white issue. Another concern with regards to worker safety is the proper ventilation of the work spaces due to the toxic nature of the solvents used to join this material. If you look at the MSDS sheets for these products, you will see that they are listed as possible causes for a number of health problems if inhaled or absorbed through the skin. These are important factors to consider when looking at the overall installation cost of these piping systems. Another popular myth is that PVC can be installed much faster than cast iron pipe. I know from firsthand experience that a skilled worker using the proper installation methods for both of these materials will find almost no 23 difference in the labor required to complete -- and this is the key word -- a quality installation. Each of these 175 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 materials has a place within the industry. Each has advantages and disadvantages which must be considered in a realistic manner on its own merit, with the most important factor being the health, safety and quality of life of the people living and working within the City. Making large changes to the Philadelphia Plumbing Code without careful consideration by industry people familiar with the City of Philadelphia and its special needs and concerns is a mistake. As someone who has met with the City's Plumbing Advisory Board in the past to talk about Code issues, I would urge you to ask the Mayor to reconsider his decision to dissolve the Advisory Board and refrain from any Code changes until a process is in place to review any updates. I'd like to thank you for listening to me. And the only other thing I'd like to touch on is the 176 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 economic factor of this should take a back seat to the quality of life, and I think for knowledgeable people, such as the plumbers of 690 or professional plumbers, they may be looked at as a special interest here, but they're the people who spend the most time working with the material and I think they have the most knowledge. And I think it's an enormous mistake to make massive Code changes based on what developers say or -- I mean, I heard talk about parking spaces here, that we eliminate parking spaces, we'll drive down the cost of housing and things like that. It gets crazy. Code changes are incredibly important and they're long-reaching. Once you allow a material in, it's in, and those homes last for 30, 40, 50, 60 years and it's something to really think about. So I would ask the Council to refrain from making any changes to the Philadelphia Plumbing Code in this manner, because I think it's an enormous 177 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 mistake. )

Thank you. Of the witnesses left, does anybody have written testimony? We'll read it in. If people could please summarize. If not, I'm just going to have to take it, because we do have a Public Safety meeting. If you have written testimony, can you just please quickly summarize.

Madam Chairman, thank you for having us here today. My name is Tim Brink. I'm the Executive Vice-President of the Mechanical Contractors and Servicing Contractors Associations of Eastern Pennsylvania and Greater Delaware Valley. Prior to this position, I was a licensed contractor in three states, in California, Nevada and Texas, in the plumbing and mechanical field. The 85 contractors that I 178 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 represent advocate a responsible method of adopting and modifying the Philadelphia Plumbing Code, "responsible" meaning a combination of educated consumers, plumbing officials, government officials, a whole mixture of the community that used to be present in the Plumbing Advisory Board to review these issues and come up with an educated decision. Adopting the widespread use of PVC in unlimited height applications needs to have a concerted, close look taken at it. You need educated people from all sides of the industry to deal with flame and smoke ratings, to deal with the evacuation processes of the buildings where although a high-rise apartment or condo, you have individually owned units or individual occupancies, but the evacuation routes and the common area are public spaces; therefore, it's a commercial building. Most of my testimony was 179 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 contained in John Kane's, Sean Cleary, Walt Krzyzanowski's testimony. You have it. I'll end it there. We are in favor of a responsible way of adopting the codes. Thank you.

Thank you for testifying. (Applause.) MR. LeVAN: My name is Bill 12 LeVan. I'm Executive Vice-President of the Cast Iron Soil Pipe Institute. Our association members are made up of the three U.S. manufacturers of cast iron soil piping fittings used in this marketplace. The association has been around for 60 years. I've been in the industry for 40. The piping that this building I looked at while I was waiting to come into the Council Chambers was produced prior to our becoming an association, so the pipe is over 60 years old. It testifies to the durability of the 180 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 product. Cast iron is made from today 100 percent recycled ferrous materials. We use in excess of 250,000 to 300,000 automobiles per year, scrap automobiles, as an equivalent to what we melt to produce the products used here. Our members manufacture and sell the Philadelphia single-stack system. It's readily available. It's stocked in Macungie, Pennsylvania, the site of one of our founders that unfortunately burned, but it still is the largest inventory in the eastern United States in this market, except for Charlotte, North Carolina, where we have a manufacturing plant. The product expands and contracts at the same rate as concrete and steel. It does not require expansion joints. It does not burn. It is a non-combustible material. It has a variety of things that make it a valued product. Although it is probably more 181 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 expensive as far as initial cost of the product, I'm confident that the install cost of the product is comparable to PVC, if not less. Thank you very much for your time. (Applause.)

Mr. Simmons.

Well, unless I'm badly mistaken, I'm the last guy standing, so I'll be very brief and skip to . My name is Greg Simmons. I'm the Vice-President and Technical Director of Charlotte Piping Foundry in Charlotte, North Carolina. I'm here to testify to you today just for one main reason. We have a very unique perspective on this issue. We happen to be a very large manufacturer of cast iron soil pipe and also a very large manufacturer of PVC drain waste and vent piping. Our foundry was initially built 107 years ago and it 182 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 still stands in essentially downtown Charlotte. In 1967, we began making PVC drain waste and vent piping also. To this day, the majority of our income comes from PVC drain waste and vent piping. We have 1,400 associates working for us. We like PVC. It's a very valid plumbing system when used correctly. I'm here to tell you today that your existing Plumbing Code strikes a good compromise between good use of PVC and cast iron soil pipe. There's room 16 for some minor adjustments. We would think that you could reach some compromises. But both systems are good, so I'm not here to beat up on either system today. I don't think it's an either/or question that's facing you. I feel like you have very good appropriate measures that you can take to satisfy all parties. By the way, both Bill and 183 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 myself are talking regarding drain waste and vent systems. There's been a lot of crossover today and an awful lot of situations I haven't understood as far as different products and different uses. We're talking drain waste and vent, not potable water. So the comparison that we're talking about or that I'm talking about is cast iron soil pipe essentially versus PVC drain waste and vent products. So with that said, the one issue I would like to hit a little bit is the environmental aspects of cast iron soil pipe. We feel very strongly that cast iron soil pipe is the environmental choice. We produce in our plant. We recycle in excess of 300 million pounds of ferrous scrap material in a year. Every pound of every piece of cast iron soil pipe comes from recycled material. I can tell you not one pound of PVC material is from post-consumer PVC. Every bit of it, by code and by standard, is virgin material, and so if for no 184 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 other reason than the recyclability of cast iron, we feel like that's a very strong environmental emphasis for the cast iron soil pipe. When this building is hopefully never torn down, but when a building is built using cast iron soil pipe and at the end of its 50 to 100-year life cycle, every pound of that cast iron has value. Every pound of it can go back to a foundry and be used to make I beams or soil pipe or plate for and sheet for appliances. Every single pound of it will have value. None of it will go into waste disposal facilities. Thank you so much for taking time to listen to us today. We appreciate it. (Applause.)

Any questions from the panel? (No response.)

With that, this concludes our public hearing. 185 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953

Maria?

Go ahead, Councilman Green.

Thank you.

I was just going to recess the hearing and go to the meeting. Is this part of the hearing?

No. Don't recess the hearing yet, please.

Okay. Go ahead, Councilman Green.

I just wanted to say for the record that we have to get building again. We have to get people back to work, and we all need to consider that anything that lowers the cost of building will put people to work. We have to approach this rationally and thoughtfully, and it is my sincere hope that in the coming weeks, Councilman Clarke and the Chairwoman and the people here testifying today can work out a compromise that satisfies everybody. 186 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 It's my understanding that no bill will be moving today; is that correct, Madam Chair?

I haven't said that yet.

Okay.

Councilman Clarke.

I didn't say that yet, but I guess the Councilman has information that I don't have. No. With respect to -- first, Councilwoman, I just want to thank you and the Committee for hosting this hearing. I know it's been a long and difficult hearing, and I appreciate the fact that you all have given your time and effort to talk about this very much controversial issue. There's a reason why this issue has been out there as long as it has, because it's difficult, and I understand that. The purpose of me calling the hearing is based on the conversations 187 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 that I thought we were moving towards the path of some sort of an agreement. At the eleventh hour -- and I understood there wouldn't be an agreement -- I felt it was still appropriate to have the hearing, because all of the information needed to be out on the table. Beyond just myself as the sponsor of the bill, all members should hear the information on both sides of the equation, and I think it's been beneficial to everyone. I know it has been to me. With that, what I would like to do -- and I want to thank you all for giving me the amendment, because I did need -- I did commit to taking commercial out, and I appreciate you giving me the amendment to take the commercial out, because I do believe that I'm a person of my word. If I say I'm going to do something, I'm going to do it. And so, therefore, I would like to ask at this time that we hold the bill in committee, with the understanding that we will 188 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 continue the discussion. Because as far as I'm concerned, we have come a long way on this issue, an issue that, frankly speaking, nobody wanted to touch for a lot of different reasons. And from my perspective -- and hopefully the Committee members now, since you all are in the mix, will be a part of that further discussion as it relates to getting to the appropriate number, because it is a numbers issue, making sure that all of these safety issues on both sides of the equation at some point get consolidated to the truth, because there's always this side and there's that side, then there's always a side in the middle that's the facts, because we do need to make sure that we're right on that particular issue. In addition to which the issue with respect to the Plumbing Advisory Council, I know something was brought up during the course of discussions and I've indicated a willingness to work on that. 189 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 I understand, Councilwoman Brown, you have also and hopefully other members, if that's a part of the equation -- and I understand there are actually some other issues with respect to the Code that can be beneficial to the plumbing building trade. I'm prepared to work on that to make sure that it ensures that they have -- it creates a better environment for them, the Plumbing Union itself or plumbers, not saying union. So I want to ask that we hold it, but with the understanding that there has to be more dialogue, because this is an important issue. The fact that the people that I've been working with have indicated a willingness to talk about some expansion of the use of PVC shows that we need to do something, we need to modernize this Code. I'm prepared to ask you all to hold this today so we can further the discussion.

Thank you, Councilman Clarke. I want to take 190 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 this opportunity to really thank you for bringing the issue to us and, more importantly, for your willingness and continued willingness to work with the stakeholders who make up the industry and the folks impacted by the policy decisions that we make. And I want to thank the stakeholders for coming out today and expressing their concerns and, at the same time, their continued willingness to work with us as we try to juggle what is a cost issue but also a public safety issue. As Chair of L&I, L&I is a public safety entity, and we rely on its expertise and its relationships with our stakeholders to come forth with policies that never, never put in jeopardy or in harm people, the people that we are elected to represent. So with that, I am going to be aggressive in ensuring that those follow-up meetings happen and that we 191 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 move this in a timely fashion. I think that despite the opposition, I think we're much, much closer than has been viewed here today. I think we're very close. And so I want thank you for the leadership in that and thank the union and Mr. Kane. I look forward to being able to come back to this Committee with something that takes into account those two matters. Did you have something else?

I just want to say one other thing I just didn't want to omit. I just want to also thank the housing advocates for coming down and continuing to press for affordability as relates to housing. I want to thank the development community for coming and bringing their level of expertise to the table. This can never get resolved unless everybody is working together, and I clearly understand that. So, again, thank you.

And 192 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 clearly this has been a demonstration of, folks, democracy, as I say, democracy at work, people talking about it in a public forum, us being informed, appropriately informed, by all the sectors to try to make solid policy decisions. So with that, we're going to conclude the public hearing and enter into the public meeting.

No, no, no. 12

We're going to recess --

You're going to hold --

I'm holding the bill, but we're going to recess -- I do have to go into a public meeting because I have one bill that does need to get voted out.

I just want to make sure we hold the bill in committee.

So officially we are going to be holding 193 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 Bill 080953 to the call of the Chair, and then I'm going to move into the public meeting and I am going to ask my Vice-Chairwoman for a motion.

Thank you, Madam Chairman. I move that Bill 8 080650 be reported out of this Committee with a suspension of rules as to permit first reading at the next session of Council. (Duly seconded.)

All in favor? (Aye.)

So Bill 17 080650 will be voted out of Committee with a favorable recommendation, with a suspension of rules to allow first reading at our first public meeting. Thank you all for coming and your patience. (Committee on Licenses and Inspections concluded at 4:10 p.m.) - - - 194 CERTIFICATE I HEREBY CERTIFY that the proceedings, evidence and objections are contained fully and accurately in the stenographic notes taken by me upon the foregoing matter on March 18, 2009, and that this is a true and correct transcript of same. ______________________________ MICHELE L. MURPHY RPR-Notary Public (The foregoing certification of this transcript does not apply to any reproduction of the same by any means, unless under the direct control and/or supervision of the certifying reporter.)