COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA COMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Wednesday, March 18, 2009 1:10 p.m. - - - PRESENT: COUNCILWOMAN MARIA QUINONES-SANCHEZ, CHAIR COUNCILWOMAN JANNIE BLACKWELL COUNCILMAN DARRELL L. CLARKE COUNCILMAN BILL GREEN COUNCILMAN WILLIAM GREENLEE COUNCILMAN JACK KELLY COUNCILWOMAN JOAN L. KRAJEWSKI COUNCILWOMAN BLONDELL REYNOLDS BROWN BILL 080650 - An ordinance amending Section 9-605 of The Philadelphia Code, entitled "Towing," by amending the requirements required for Towing from Private Lots... BILL 080953 - An ordinance amending Subcode "P" (The Philadelphia Plumbing Code) of Title 4 of The Philadelphia Code... - - - V A R A L L O Incorporated Litigation Support Services Eleven Penn Center 1835 Market Street, Suite 600 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 215.561.2220 215.567.2670 2
Good afternoon, everyone. I'm Councilwoman Maria Quinones-Sanchez, Chair of the Committee on License and Inspections. With me, the Committee on License and Inspections has established a quorum. I have Councilwoman Joan Krajewski, Councilman Bill Green, Councilman Bill 10 Greenlee and Councilman Jack Kelly. For the purposes of time, we're going to go to Bill 080650 first. Will the Clerk read the title of the bill.
080650, an ordinance amending Section 9-605 of The Philadelphia Code, entitled "Towing," by amending the requirements required for Towing from Private Lots, Private Property and Driveways, all under certain terms and conditions.
Thank you. I'm going to invite Otis Haigler from License and Inspections to 3 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 testify first and then the panel of Eddie Wright, Lew Blum Towing, George Smith Towing and Chris Foulds thereafter. (Witness approached witness table.)
Good afternoon, Chairwoman Sanchez and members of the Committee. I am Otis Haigler, Jr., Director of Legislative Affairs for the Department of Licenses and Inspections. Today I am here to provide testimony on Bill 080650, which, if enacted, will amend Section 9-605, Subsection 11 of The Philadelphia Code to allow for the reduction in the size of posted signs on single-family properties which authorizes the towing of vehicles by private towing operators pursuant to certain conditions being met as currently indicated in this section of the Code. The Department offers no 25 objections to the enactment of this bill, 4 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 and thank you for the opportunity to provide the Department's testimony.
Thank you. Any questions from the panel? (No response.)
Is anyone from the second panel that I talked about, Eddie Wright, Blum Towing, George Smith Towing or Chris Foulds, available? (Witness approached witness table.)
My name is Christopher Foulds, F as in Frank, O-U-L-D as in dog, S as in Sam.
All right. You can proceed. 5 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953
Well, just to be very brief about this, I live at 2nd and Morris Street, and one morning I woke up and there was a black Mustang with Jersey plates parked in front of my garage, which meant my wife couldn't get to work. So I called the PPA. The PPA said they couldn't tow. I called the police. The police said they couldn't tow. They said I had to get a private tower. Lew Blum came out and said he couldn't tow because he needed to put up a sign for at least hours. 15 He did put up the sign, and 16 it's grotesquely large. The ordinance 17 says it has to be 36 inches by 36 inches, 18 which in the abstract seems like it's 19 within the range of reasonableness, but 20 that's really quite large, three feet by 21 three feet. It ends up dominating my 22 home, and people laugh, quite frankly, 23 when they come over. So it's a rather 24 small thing, but important to us.
Any 6 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 questions from the panel? (No response.)
Thank you for your testimony. Anyone else here to testify on Bill 080650? (No response.)
Then we will move on to what everyone is here for, which is Bill 080953. Once the Clerk reads the title of the bill, I want to allow opening comments from its sponsor, Councilman Darrell Clarke.
Bill No. 080953, an ordinance amending Subcode "P" (The Philadelphia Plumbing Code) of Title 4 of The Philadelphia Code ("The Philadelphia Building Construction and Occupancy Code") by providing for the use of ABS plastic pipe and PVC plastic pipe, all under certain terms and conditions.
If we can wait a moment for Councilman Clarke, he wanted to have some brief remarks 7 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 before we started the testimony. The Chair recognizes Councilman Clarke, the sponsor of this bill, for remarks prior to the testimony.
Thank you, Madam Chair and members of the Committee. Real briefly, I just want to give you a quick history and the reason why we're here. Madam Chair, as you recall, you were not a member of Council at the point, but I do understand that you were interested in being provided in this particular -- what is that on?
Can we put up the volume of the microphones. We may want to turn that off. (Air conditioner is on.)
Excuse me. Excuse me. We will be orderly. Do you want to try again, Councilman Clarke? It's not going to turn off. They just turned on the air because so many people came. So they 8 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 just turned on the air. You want us to turn it off?
They turned off the one on the second floor. We're waiting for the one on the first floor.
Thank you. Madam Chair, approximately a couple years ago, we started a process that we understood would be difficult, time consuming, in addition to which it will require significant cooperation from a lot of different parties, and we attempted to implement a program, which is known as inclusionary housing. During the course of the debate -- and I want to say that we brought in all parties involved, the development community, the building trades community, the government and the advocates, and we started a process that talked about a way of making housing in 9 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 the City of Philadelphia more affordable. And during the course of that discussion, it was understood that everybody had to participate in that, the City, government, be it the state, the development community, the building trades and the advocates, and we crafted a bill that talked about the parameters, meaning the eligibility and the cost associated with the housing that would be made. During the course of those hearings, one thing became clear, that unless we were in a position to get that cost down utilizing all available methods, we weren't going to be able to provide affordable housing. And I'd like to call it workforce housing, because the reality is that there are a lot of people out here who don't -- who make more money than traditional government housing authorizes you to be in, but they don't make enough to afford some of the very expensive condominiums and some of the 10 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 new construction. So we wanted to create an environment to build this housing that a person that's a police officer or a nurse or in the building trades can afford to purchase a new home in the City of Philadelphia. So we started a process that looked at cost offsets, and I talked to the development community, advocates, as I said earlier. One of the most significant issues that came up as it relates to cost was the cost of material. And being a person that believes in investigating it before I accept anybody's word, we looked at this whole issue about PVC pipe and the cost associated with the use of PVC versus copper and iron and -- copper and iron, cast iron. And once I understood that there was a substantial difference in cost, the first thing I did, because I understand the institutional nature of the Plumbers Union and their ability to use certain materials, I reached out, 11 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 before I talked to anybody else, to representatives from the Plumbers Union, and over the last four to five months, we have had what I would like to characterize as probably the most productive, substantive, cordial and refreshing meetings that I have ever had with representatives from the building trades. And I would like to say -- I want to call his name out. I don't want to get him in trouble, but Mr. Kane was a true gentleman. He kept his word, and throughout the process, he brought in other people from the industry and, frankly speaking, I thought we were on the path to getting an understanding. I'm assuming he felt comfortable that it was not my intent to cause any problems with his members, because I'm a former union member. I believe in unions. I understand the importance of having unions, particularly over the last eight years as it relates to this whole push on the national level 12 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 to get rid of unions. So we were working along a process that will deal specifically with a particular type of material, not affecting the workforce associated with that material.
We crafted what I believed to be a set of amendments that reflected some of the concerns, and we will probably have disagreement on that today, significant amount of the concerns that were raised, and in some instances, I actually don't -- the Administration does not agree with me, because what I committed to do is to taking out the commercial side of this bill, which is a significant portion, because my sole interest was residential. We talked about crafting a bill 21 that reflected a certain size of residential, because the buildings trades consistently and representatives from the industry talked about the concerns about high-rises and the installation of PVC. 13 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 And I must tell you, I got a significant education during this process, because I didn't understand the application process when you put PVC on just lower levels, it's safe as can be, and the further you go up, there's a different application process. And I learned something. But at the end of the day, I still believe that a person should have a choice. An individual should have a choice. A developer should have a choice. So if it costs more to put PVC in the upper floors, then I think that that person or that developer should have an option of paying more money for the installation, because we're in the City and I know the Administration is not going to support something that's unsafe. You're not going to get a building permit from License and Inspection if the application is not applied. We talked about inserting the specifics of the language as it relates to the application process to ensure that 14 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 nobody is going to come in our city and install PVC that's unsafe, and I was prepared to put that in the legislation. So today, as I proceeded on requesting a hearing, it was based on the belief that we would get a consensus. And I hope that we do, because I think that at the end of the day, our ability to provide housing in a less costly way will increase the level of housing. I just genuinely believe that, and I think any sane-thinking person would believe that also. So today, what we're going to do, from our perspective, is lay out the facts, the facts as it relates to the costs associated with the particular material, the facts as it relates to the safety of the implementation and the installment of this particular material and the need to ensure that we do things in the most cost effective and the most safe possible way of ensuring that people in the City of Philadelphia have a 15 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 choice. I'm not going to get -- personally, I don't want to get into us versus them, what they do in other places and what we do here and what we're prohibited doing. That discussion will be had at the witness table, because I want to talk about the City of Philadelphia and the importance of us working together to craft something that I think will benefit all of us. So we will believe that we will put on a case. And, as I said, I was prepared to offer some amendments to reflect a significant amount of the concerns that were raised by the individuals in the trades and the supporting individuals that were in those meetings. So today, we hope to lay out a case for our ability, the citizens' ability, to expand the application of PVC pipe. Thank you.
So you 16 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 don't have any amendments that you're going to offer up today, though?
You do? Do you want to circulate them with the Committee now, or no?
I can. There are a couple of them. I was kind of getting a sense of the tone of the discussion.
I genuinely hope that there can be some sort of an agreement reached, because during the course of those five months of working with these gentlemen, I understand that they're genuine. It's not personal. Their concerns are genuine. I enjoyed working with them. So I think when people work together and have meaningful dialogue, I think at the end of the day, people can 17 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 come to some sort of an agreement.
Thank you, Councilman Clarke. We are going to start. We have several different panels, so let me lay them out so folks know in the order that we're going. We're going to hear from the Administration and Commissioner Fran Burns, as well as Deputy Mayor Andrew Altman, are here. We're going to start with them. And then we're going to have a panel that includes Joe Rea, Chuck Breder, Patrick McDonald and Roland Kassis and Scott Orens, and that will be one panel. Then we're going to have a panel that includes Community Legal Services, Women's Revitalization, Project HOME and the Homeowners Association. And then we have two additional panels that include the Plumbers Union, firefighters membership, and then we are going to have -- the fourth panel will be MCA, Cast Iron and others. So just to give 18 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 folks a sense of the order in which we are going to proceed with the testimony. If there's someone else that I don't have on this list that is here who wants to testify, if you can approach staff on the side so that we make sure that we add you in to the panel. So with that, I'd like to start with Commissioner Burns and the folks from L&I and Deputy Mayor Andrew Altman, if they would come to the witness stand, please. (Witnesses approached witness table.)
Good morning, Councilmember Sanchez and members of the Committee on Licenses and Inspections. My name is Andrew Altman. I'm the Deputy Mayor for Planning and Economic Development and the Director of Commerce. I am here today to testify in support of Bill No. 080953 introduced on 19 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 December 11, 2008. I want to thank Councilman Clarke for his focus on improving our Building Code and for all of his efforts. Bill No. 080953 amends the Philadelphia Plumbing Code to allow for the use of PVC and ABS piping throughout the Code for use in water supply, waste removal, rainwater drainage, venting and underground wastewater. Commissioner Fran Burns of the Department of Licenses and Inspections will testify next about the technical details and will also be available to answer any questions concerning implementation or enforcement. First, I think that it is important to set the framework for this issue and development as a whole in the City of Philadelphia. The cost of construction in Philadelphia is the fourth highest in the country. It's growing 17 percent faster than the national average. So any steps we can 20 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 take to reduce barriers to entry will help strengthen Philadelphia, making it a more competitive place to do business. Our Building Code is generally pretty cost competitive, and the Philadelphia Plumbing Code actually has some advantages over other jurisdictions with the use of a single-stack system, which requires less material and labor than other codes. Unfortunately, in many cases that savings is often mitigated or wiped out by the required use of materials such as cast iron and brass in other areas that take longer to install and could cost more. The allowance of PVC throughout the Plumbing Code will make the Philadelphia Plumbing Code one of the most cost efficient in the country, actually cheaper than the IPC, which governs the surrounding region. Our estimate is that the use of PVC could reduce total costs for new construction by as much as six to ten percent, and 21 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 cost in savings would be even greater for renovations since PVC is easier to install in existing structures and 75 percent of all Philadelphia construction is renovations. Another benefit of Bill 080953 is not just the effect that it will have on private developers, but the effect it will have for not-for-profits, institutions and City projects. This reduction in construction costs would allow the City, the School District, universities and hospitals to maximize their resources to provide services. For all of these reasons, I am here today to express our support for the bill, and I want to thank you for your time and happy to take any questions.
Are there any questions from the members? You want to hold until after the Commissioner? Okay. COMMISSIONER BURNS: Good afternoon, Councilwoman Sanchez and 22 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 members of the Committee. I am Fran Burns, Commissioner of the Department of Licenses and Inspections. Today I am here to testify in support of Bill 6 080953, which, if enacted, will amend the Philadelphia Plumbing Code in order to permit the installation of PVC or ABS piping for use in all buildings in the City. According to Section P-809.1 of the current Philadelphia Plumbing Code, above-ground piping shall be of brass, type "M" copper or heavier, cast iron, galvanized steel, galvanized alloy, galvanized malleable iron split couplings, stainless steel, poly butylene cold water pipe or plastic water pipe with appropriate approved fittings. Currently, below-ground piping shall be of brass, type "L" copper or heavier, cast iron or plastic cold water pipe. Section P-809.2 allows CPVC piping for domestic hot and cold water service in buildings that house no more than three 23 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 dwelling units and alternative housing designs such as single-room occupancies with a maximum of ten beds. Section 5 P-902.5 regulates that ABS plastic pipe shall be limited to installation in buildings containing dwelling units only. Such buildings shall consist of from one to four families and shall not exceed three stories in height. For the purpose of this section, basements are not considered a story in height. Bill 13 080953 will change the Philadelphia Plumbing Code to allow the use of PVC and ABS in all commercial and residential buildings above and below ground. For decades, the use of PVC has been allowed by model codes, not just the International Code, with no attempt to prohibit or limit its use to documented experience and with no limitation based on occupancy. The Department fields many questions from out-of-town designers and rejects a majority of plans because of the distinction between different types 24 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 of piping. Standardizing the type allowed or providing the option to use PVC or ABS will help eliminate confusion by developers, designers and contractors. The use of PVC or ABS is authorized in the International Plumbing Code that is adopted at the state or local level in 37 states, plus Washington, DC and Puerto Rico. It is also the standard of the Pennsylvania Uniform Construction Code. If this bill were adopted, the Department would take appropriate measure to ensure that inspectors and plans examiners are trained on the applicable code. The Department, therefore, supports enactment of Bill 080953 as introduced in Council on December 11, 2008. Thank you for the opportunity to provide testimony. I will be happy to answer any questions at this time and also happy to introduce Deputy 25 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 Commissioner Michael Fink.
Thank you, Commissioner Burns. I will start with recognizing that Councilwoman Blondell Reynolds Brown has joined as a member of this Committee, and Councilman Bill Greenlee has some questions.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Good afternoon, everybody. I didn't see in either of your testimony any talk about any study or any investigation you may have done on the safety of PVC. Have you done any? Because obviously there are concerns about that, particularly when it comes to fires. Have either of you looked into that personally yourselves? COMMISSIONER BURNS: Yes. Anything that we've looked at, what we've looked at are reports in comparing the two types and also put some credibility in those that adopt on the International 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 Code and developed the International Code and also the Uniform Construction Code, and in that, there is great regard to safety. As such, we haven't seen any scientific or otherwise proven evidence that any or other type is unsafe or that one type is safer than the other. And in terms of the Department of Licenses and Inspections, our job is to enforce the Code and not to regulate material. So we will continue to enforce whatever the Code may be. And also just one other caveat, the Building Code is constructed to protect and address safety issues as it relates to fire and fire construction materials.
Have you seen or heard the testimony or have you seen the letter Mr. McBride of the firefighters has put forth? COMMISSIONER BURNS: I have not.
Okay. We 27 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 may want to add more questions when that comes back. COMMISSIONER BURNS: Absolutely.
Good afternoon. In Deputy Mayor Altman's testimony it says that adding PVC will reduce the cost of construction by as much as six to ten percent. What is that based on? Did you do some sort of analysis? Do you have a report that you can share with the Committee? DEPUTY
Yeah, we could share. We've done an analysis of cost of construction in the City and the different elements of it. Yes.
And could 28 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 you please provide that to the Chair so that we might have the benefit of that as we look at this issue? DEPUTY
The other thing is, I think in other cities where they allow PVC, I got the impression from somebody's testimony that where there is PVC used, you don't have single stack. You're required to have stacks wherever there's restrooms and stuff. In other words, we're the only city that allows single stack, and I thought that might be because of the quality of the pipes we used. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FINK: The single-stack system --
Identify yourself for the record, please. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FINK: I'm sorry. I'm Michael Fink, Deputy Commissioner for Licenses and Inspections Development. The single-stack system is 29 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 based upon the size of the pipe, allowing the system to vent the sewer gases, along with taking the waste material away. It was actually introduced as an approved system in the International Plumbing Code recently and failed by a very small margin. We believe it's a good system and would like to maintain it here in Philadelphia. But it really doesn't have anything to do with the type of materials. It has to do more with the size of the pipe.
Is there a list of cities that use PVC and also allow single stack? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FINK: I'm not aware of any, no. I believe the single-stack system is pretty much related just to Philadelphia, but, again, it deals with --
So there's no data on whether or not that's safe or will last a long time or anything like that? Because we would be out in the 30 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 frontier on this issue if we permitted this. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FINK: The single-stack system is for venting. It's based on the size of the pipe, not necessarily the type of material.
But nobody else has tried it with PVC; that's your testimony? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FINK: Not that I'm aware of, sir.
Okay. The other question I have is, what is the difference between PVC and ABS? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FINK: It's just different composition in the plastic, what is termed "plastic." There are a number of different types of plastic. That's just the material that goes in to making the plastic.
Okay. So many of the cost savings attributed to the six to ten percent cost savings, we're saying that using PVC compared to 31 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 our current system will save six to ten percent, but it appeared to me from Commissioner Burns' testimony that we actually allow ABS and CPVC in certain categories right now, like single-family homes, dwelling units of less than three stories, et cetera. So my question is, what is -- and that seems to be the area Councilman Clarke is concerned with. What is the difference in the cost of installing PVC versus ABS and the way it's used? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FINK: I'm not familiar with the cost. I only deal with the model codes. I can't speak to the cost. I have not personally done any studies in that.
But with respect to the areas currently that permit CPVC and ABS, like -- let's just go over them real quick. Domestic hot and cold water, no more than three dwelling units and alternative housing design such as single-room occupancies 32 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 with a maximum of ten beds, installation in buildings containing dwelling units only, can only be one to four families and shall not exceed three stories in height. Isn't that most of the areas that seem to be -- aren't we addressing this problem already in the small house space in the homes for the kind of people that were mentioned in Councilman Clarke's opening statement? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FINK: It is allowed in most residential occupancies, again, three stories or less.
So there is no testimony about the difference in cost between -- you don't know, the Administration does not currently know, the difference in cost between building what is currently permitted with CPVC or ABS and PVC? There may be no cost difference? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FINK: Not 33 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 that I'm aware of, no. 3
The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Blondell Reynolds Brown.
Good afternoon. I have a follow-up to Councilman Green's question. Why that particular height limit as opposed to any other height limit that's stipulated on the first page of Commissioner Burns' testimony? How do we end up at that particular place? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FINK: That was established before I ever came to my position. I do not know what the basis of that height limitation or occupancy limitation is.
The Mayor has made it very, very clear beginning on Inauguration Day that he wanted to make Philadelphia a greener city, and a number 34 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 of measures have been introduced on City Council addressing just that, how we move to make Philadelphia more sustainable. Which of the two is more environmentally acceptable? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FINK: Defining what is green is something that is -- (Audience members yelling.)
Excuse me, folks. Please. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FINK: Defining when something is green is kind of difficult to measure. I believe most people would say that plastic is not as natural a material as cast iron, but the use of plastic pipe allows us to use perforated pipe, which can give you a better method of dispensing with storm water and items like that.
Repeat your last statement. 35 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FINK: Using PVC pipe, which is perforated, can allow us to use better methods of disposing of storm water to get it back into the aquifer as opposed to getting it to the City's sewers, which the City's Water Department then has to treat. So it's hard to quantify which is more green. Additionally, you could even get into inane arguments about whether or not the cost of transportation of the material -- when someone does a LEED certification, it looks so far into the actual accrual of the materials, the purchase and transportation of the material, that that all goes into what determines what's more sustainable or not. So there's too much of a variable there. Perhaps the developers in this area can deal with that, because, again, I do not do cost analysis.
Okay. Point of information, Madam Chair, to the 36 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 sponsor of the bill. Currently, as the bill is written, this change, if implemented, would affect housing construction of any type, meaning those that are supported financially by the City as well as private development as well?
So with that in mind, does L&I have any procedure, regulation where a different set of rules apply for those residential construction where there is City financing? In other words, if you are doing anything for the City and you're coming to the City and you're asking for City financial support, then with that, the City has either a different set of rules or another set of rules for those who want to get City support and abide by these additional conditions that the City may be imposing, because you're asking for City financial support? 37 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 COMMISSIONER BURNS: No. 3
Anything in the Code right now? COMMISSIONER BURNS: No. 6
No. No, not in the Code right now, and I think the idea of this is that we want to effect as much the private and not just the City supported. So there's one set of standards that -- I mean, if there are additional things that -- you talked about LEED or other certifications that we're aspiring to, has there been measures about green roofs where we've put incentives in, but I think in terms of looking at the Building Code and what's been adopted, trying to have a uniform set of regulations, whatever those may be for basic construction in the City.
You say we're trying to adopt. 38 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 DEPUTY
Well, in terms of what's before us. That's why we didn't differentiate between the public and the private for this.
Excuse me. Point of information. Councilman Clarke, as the sponsor, do you want to give a clarifying statement to what the Councilwoman is asking?
Yeah. Actually, both issues. One with respect to Councilman Green's question about the current allowance of PVC in existing three-story single-family homes. One of the issues as it relates to the inclusionary housing, the agreement that was reached, that it must be -- the trigger was 20 units or more. So a three-story home obviously does not have 20 units, so, therefore, in order to have the inclusionary housing trigger, you must have at least 20 units, which, 39 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 therefore, calls for the need to be in a position to build more than units in 4 order to get the affordable housing. 5 That's with respect to the Councilman's 6 question about why are we seeking to 7 expand it beyond the three-story housing. 8 Just pure numbers. In addition to which, 9 there has been no proof that I can see 10 that using it in buildings beyond three 11 units is not safe. 12 So, as I said in my earlier 13 statements, I think that a person should 14 have the option. If they choose to apply 15 PVC in a building that has 20 units or 30 16 units, if it is safe, then I think that 17 that person should have that option. And 18 if it costs more, then that person will 19 probably opt to go to cast iron or 20 copper. Frankly speaking, the information we have shows that it will be less costly.
And just for another point of information, so we would be talking, for instance, just as 40 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 an example, PHA's housing developments that have multi units, or no?
If PHA -- as you know, there are conventional sites in there --
Then there's scatter sites. A conventional site development such as -- and PHA is probably not a good example, because all of that is affordable. But the question with respect to the uses of PVC, in fact, is required in a senior citizens development, so to speak, because it is above the three threshold number. That goes directly to the cost associated with the City or the government subsidy. In the case of the PHA, it's the government. So the higher the cost associated with that development, the more it's going to cost us in subsidy, because PHA is a subsidized development. And any non-profit corporation, that essentially 41 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 is going to be an additional infusion of cash, of taxpayers' money, to subsidize that unit, because the cost is so high.
Did you have any other points? Because then I was going to recognize back to Councilman Green, I think had other questions, but I know your light was on prior to that. Was there any other point that you wanted to --
But did you have a point? I wanted to recognize you because your light went on. Because I know Councilman Green has --
Thank 42 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 you.
The Code sections that are mentioned in Commissioner Burns' testimony, do they not apply to over units? 7 COMMISSIONER BURNS: That's 8 correct. 9
So this is 10 20 units and under? 11 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FINK: 12 Those Code sections apply -- if you read 13 them again, they say four units or under, 14 three stories or under. So that's the 15 maximum. 16
But that's 17 per building? 18 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FINK: Yes, 19 sir. 20
Okay. So for single-family residences, twins, it applies? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FINK: Yes, sir.
And the 43 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 majority of homes built in Philadelphia, the kind of homes that we're talking about here, are generally single family or twins? Is there any -- DEPUTY
If you could provide that to the Chair, that would be great. The other thing I wanted to ask was, in Deputy Mayor Altman's testimony, it says the cost savings and impact would be greater for renovations since PVC is easier to install in existing structures and 75 percent of construction is renovations. Is ABS as easy to install as PVC? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FINK: They're both pretty much the same.
Yes. 44 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 Councilwoman Brown.
Additional follow-up. The sponsor of the bill 5 raised the issue of choice. Is there an intention to deal with the issue of choice at any juncture? And can you respond to why that is not even a factor in this bill, or is that left for further discussion? Why should not builders be given a choice to spend how much money they want to spend if they have limited budgets? COMMISSIONER BURNS: Well, I think that the point is that we're just supporting the choice to be had so that developers could choose between either type. DEPUTY
As opposed to being mandated to only use one. So I think the question of choice so that people have the option -- there is an option, the ability to be able to use an alternative system so that there is a cost reduction, if they want to -- 45 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953
That was not clear to me. Thank you very much. That wasn't clear. Thank you.
Okay, then. Thank you very much from the Administration panel. We will move on to a panel that includes Joe Rea, Chuck Breder, Patrick McDonald, Roland Kassis and Scott Orens. And could the next panel, if folks are here, remain close by, which is Community Legal Services, WCRP, Jannine Miller, Darrell Zaslow and Michael Cudahy. (Witnesses approached witness table.)
Good afternoon. Can you identify yourself for the record and begin. Joe Rea?
My name is Sam Sherman. I'm the President of the Building Industry Association of 46 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 Philadelphia. I think I was on the list.
Yes. And what I wanted to do was take an opportunity to introduce the other panelists very quickly, but also to thank you, Councilwoman, for allowing us to testify on this issue and also Councilman Clarke for introducing the legislation. I have prepared testimony. I believe the Committee members have been supplied with that written testimony, and there's been some supplemental information brought before you as well in the last hour. And with that, I will provide my testimony and then I would ask that Pat McDonald speak next, as he has to go to an appointment and he would like to offer testimony. As I said, my name is Sam Sherman. I'm the President of the Building Industry Association of Philadelphia, and the BIA is here in 47 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 support of Bill No. 080953, which would allow PVC piping in plumbing to be installed in lieu of cast iron. The BIA supports this legislation because in this economy, the use of PVC reflects and demonstrates that it will cost less to install and use in residential applications. And our own internal analysis at the Building Industry Association has demonstrated on average it will reduce construction costs on a typical three-bedroom, two-and-a-half bath home by about $2,200 to $2,500 depending on square footage. The use of PVC piping will also save the City money in that any City projects that are financed and involved in the infrastructure upgrades or the upgrades to existing buildings will translate into direct savings to the City budget, as in the savings realized by the use and permission to use PVC pipe. Furthermore, there are added costs to the use of this cast iron that 48 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 we're currently using in that the plumbing inspectors in Philadelphia have to undergo additional training in the installation of cast iron piping. This adds cost and it also adds to administrative costs that must be realized by the Department of License and Inspections. And, lastly, the BIA has provided data that will support the argument that PVC is an acceptable alternative to cast iron. And with that, in the interest of time, I would like to ask that Pat McDonald offer testimony next on the list. But thank you very much for allowing us to testify. MR. McDONALD: Good afternoon, members of the Council. My name is Patrick McDonald. I'm a master plumber for 20-plus years in the City of Philadelphia and come from a long line of plumbers. My father was a 690 plumber. On the seal that I hold as a 49 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 master plumber, the phrase "Plumbers protect the health and welfare of the nation" stands out very bold and defined. I've always taken this oath very, very seriously and, over the years, have questioned some of the Code requirements contained in the Philadelphia Plumbing Code. I would like to address a common material used in the current Philadelphia Plumbing Code. The use of lead for our sanitary piping systems is a Code requirement. This requirement is, quote, a "forbidden use item" and against the law in nearly every city across the nation. I'd like to look at some statistics with you today. According to the article 21 prepared for the FDA Consumer, Volume 32 in January of 1998, lead was banned from house paint in 1978. S. canners quit using lead in solder in 1991. A 25-year phaseout of lead in gasoline reached its 50 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 goal in 1995. As a result of such efforts and more, the number of young children with potentially harmful blood levels has dropped 85 percent in the past years, as shown by the National Health 7 and Nutritional Examination Survey 8 conducted by the National Center for 9 Health Statistics and funded by the FDA. 10 The FDA continues to approve new portable 11 blood lead screening kits for health 12 professionals to use to address this 13 serious health issue. 14 So is lead a health risk? 15 Let's look.
" In 1986, a four-volume document was prepared by a group of senior scientists in the EPA and was the most thorough and comprehensive toxicological assessment ever produced to date of the dangers of lead in relationship to human health. In this report, it was found that, quote, "Inhaled or ingested lead circulates via the bloodstream, mineralizing tissues such as teeth and bone. " Where is lead required in The Philadelphia Code? We spoke about that with L&I a little bit ago. And the answer is, again, anywhere underground and inside any commercial or residential buildings and up to ten feet out of the side of the wall of the structure. This means that plumbers, plumbers' helpers, 52 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 fellow contractors, City inspectors absorb the fumes of the molten lead being used. This is in 2009, not in 1786. However, even more alarming and disturbing is that because the requirement is for molten lead to be used inside all existing homes, if you were to call a plumber today to make a repair or a replacement of a sanitary line in your basement under the floor or outside of your home up to ten feet, your home and your family would be subject to the same toxic fumes that the construction workers are breathing. Why? Is PVC dangerous? From what I understand, PVC is dangerous if you burn it. Lead is being used constantly underground when my family and your families are living and eating dinner upstairs. Why are the national codes, including Plumbing and Building, et cetera, in agreement that PVC is a viable material and accepted and approved into those codes? With the proven health 53 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 risk to all, why would there be a single plumber, let alone a lawmaker, that would disapprove the use of a superior, much healthier material, a material that they let their own children, their own children and themselves play with on a day-to-day basis? Examples of that are whiffle ball bats, toy soldiers, Rubik's Cubes, all over the home in windows, doors, vacuum cleaners, coffee pots. This is all PVC. Not to mention the content of PVC, which is 40 percent or greater, in every one of the vehicles that people drive on a daily basis. Let's work together to do away with this archaic, dangerous requirement and lead the way to Philadelphia's movement to be the greenest city in the nation by 2015, and a healthy one at that. Let's stop messing around with old-age techniques which benefit few and hurt many. Thank you. ) 54 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 MR. McDONALD: By the way, there's glue and primer in every one of the other items that I mentioned in coffee pots.
Excuse me. I'll have folks have to leave if we're going to shout out. We're going to have plenty of time and ample testimony from all sides of this. So please, let's be respectful to our witnesses. You have a --
It was directly for him, Mr. McDonald. So it's up to you, however you want to do it.
Well, there's two more people on that panel. Right, Mr. Sherman?
Right. As well as Michael Cudahy. I believe you have his information in front of you. And I would ask that he speak next. He is an expert in the use of PVC.
Okay. So in terms of your panel, you want 55 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 Michael Cudahy first and then --
For the purposes of time, for those of you who have written testimony, if we can try not to be repetitive, but at least cover other points, that would be important for us so that we can give ample time for everyone to testify today. So with that, Michael Cudahy.
Thank you. My name is Michael Cudahy. I'm the Codes and Training Specialist from PPFA, the Plastic Pipe and Fittings Association. PPFA is a trade association that represents all plastic piping systems used in buildings. We are encouraged that the City of Philadelphia is considering this action. PVC and ABS piping deserves to be included in the City of Philadelphia's Plumbing Code, as this bill is intended 56 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 to accomplish. I think you are all aware of the material and labor savings potential of adopting these materials already specified in all of the major model plumbing codes. Plastic piping products are easily the dominant plumbing materials today and offer tremendous performance at an installed cost that can be 75 percent lower for materials and 38 percent lower for labor costs depending on your local market conditions. I have submitted to the Dias (ph) a 2006 cost comparison report you can review later. PVC, for example, has been in use since the 1930's in Germany and since the 1960's in the states. It is hardly a new or untested product. It is in fact a dominant material for water and sewer applications. Plastic piping is lighter in weight, more efficient in transport, lower in cost and does not corrode, thereby increasing safety by keeping wastewater contained and drinking water 57 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 pure. All you really need to corrode metal pipe is air and water. Plastic pipes, like PVC, are vital to many green and sustainable building systems that get points in programs such as LEED, GreenGlobes and the National Green Building Standard. Systems such as gray water, reclaimed water, radon venting, rainwater catchment, central vacuum and geothermal systems are in fact enabled by plastic piping materials. If Philadelphia is in fact intending to build green and sustainable systems, the removal of undue restrictions on plastic piping should be your first endeavor. Building green brings jobs and helps move our economy. The State of Pennsylvania has at least two major plastic pipe producers. Charlotte Pipe has a plant in Muncy, and Harvel Plastics has its manufacturing headquarters in Easton, meaning materials are available and can be bought locally and put people to work 58 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 in the state. PPFA only asks that the City of Philadelphia create a level playing field for all products currently in the model building codes, as the great majority of the other cities and states have. This will allow for more choice, better economy and allow Philadelphia to continue to modernize its infrastructure, build green and apply stimulus money to many needed projects. And I would just add two comments to some of the testimony I've already heard. I think everybody in this room knows the single-stack Philly system works. If you moved it to another city, would it work? The answer is yes. It's all about venting and design of plumbing systems. The material itself is not relevant. I find it funny that other cities have a difficult time in adopting the local venting system, because it's a perfectly good system. But the plumbing codes do vary from state to state. 59 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 Also, we are talking here specifically not about distribution piping in the house such as PEX and CPVC. Those materials are used to distribute hot and cold water within the building. The topic for today is the DWV systems; in other words, the drain, waste and vent pipe. Those are two completely different systems and you'd better keep them separate. Thank you.
Mr. Sherman, you have two more testimonies as part of your panel?
Good afternoon. My name is Joseph Rea and I'm here to testify on behalf of Westrum Development Company. I'd like to thank the Chair of License and Inspections Committee, 60 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 Councilwoman Sanchez, for allowing me to testify and the rest of us and Councilman Clarke for sponsoring the legislation. I've got years of experience 6 in construction. I have worked in 7 multi-family for the past ten. I've 8 worked in Pennsylvania, Maryland, 9 Virginia and New Jersey. Right now there 10 are multiple projects out in the suburbs 11 of Pennsylvania, ones as close as 12 Conshohocken, that are using PEX and PVC 13 within the buildings. As the gentleman 14 to the right brought up, PEX has been and 15 PVC has been in the U.S. since 1980's. It does help us in green endeavors, and the way it helps us is, copper actually calcifies. And if anybody knows the City of Philadelphia's water pressure, PEX and PVC are smooth with inside the system and do not allow for chemical creep and for deformities to happen as quickly. In addition to that, PEX is almost a jointless system. Rolls come in thousand feet. It allows us as 61 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 developers and builders to stop our warranty calls coming back and forth as often. They also allow for more direct dispersal of water, meaning when you turn your water on, you don't have to wait for ten minutes for the hot water to supply. It's a direct line down to the system off a manifold system. PVC and PEX is more than competitively priced. The installation of the system is fast, and because of the heat, the easy handling and the lightweight systems, you're allowed to transfer them throughout the buildings and stock buildings much easier than you are with copper. PEX systems can be tested immediately as opposed to CPVC, which you have to wait for glue drying time, and all this just speeds up our building and production processes. The manifold features also allow, if there is an issue within a home, to shut down one fixture. Instead of calling and saying, I've got a leak, 62 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 you need to shut down your entire water system, you can just shut down the water system to that one fixture. It acts as more of a breaker box, an electrical breaker box, than it does the main water system. For the homeowner, the homeowner can substantially reduce their water and energy consumption in a home by these systems, which I already described, which was the direct systems and the less recall and less regenerating of the hot water heaters. The direct lines can be sized to the fixture requirements. Instead of just dispersing half-inch pipe throughout the house, you're allowed to adjust your piping sizes for the dispersal of the water. PEX also does not transfer energy as readily as copper does, which means it insulates the hot water throughout the house. And the flexible systems are much quieter than a rigid system. If anybody has those rigid 63 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 systems and you hear that ticking as you turn your hot water on, this eliminates or at least reduces it. And the last thing I'll say is that in the ultra competitive market that we're in right now, we must implement the most efficient and effective construction methods, while taking advantage of any available cost savings that does not sacrifice quality. I've attached a spreadsheet to my testimony in which it does give you the instances of cast and copper versus PEX and PVC. And I'd like to say that I have 160 units within the limits of the City of Philadelphia that if we are able to make this change, it's going to save our company over a million dollars, which will allow us to continue with building within the City. Thank you very much.
We actually have two more, Scott Orens and Chuck Breder, Chuck Breder from Toll. 64 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953
Good afternoon. My name is Chuck Breder with Toll Brothers. I want to thank you for the opportunity to present testimony before you. (Audience members yelling.)
Excuse me. Hold on a second. Folks, please. Thank you.
-- eighteen years building experience to include condominiums where PVC and CPVC are being used. As a builder, I wanted to bring some of the information that's available to us when we evaluate products such as PVC and CPVC to your attention. There are a great number of independent testing laboratories, industrial sources and obviously the applicable codes to help us evaluate these products. In searching for information, we've gained a great deal of information from each of these sources. 65 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 In my testimony you'll find a fact sheet from the American Chemistry Council on PVC piping, in addition to cost estimates and the savings from PVC piping. They also give you the background of the fact that it has been used for over 40 years and is even approved in the State of California. In looking at the water quality issues with CPVC, we looked to the NSF International, which is an independent testing organization, and I provided documentation in the package as well to show that the products have been thoroughly tested and do meet water quality requirements. There is a great deal of concern about CPVC and fire, how it reacts and the fumes that might be emitted in a fire. I have included information on PVC and its reaction in a fire in your package. Generally, when you review that information, you'll find that PVC requires approximately a 60 66 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 percent oxygen environment in order to maintain ignition, and normal breathing air is percent. The experts are 5 telling us that it does not pose an 6 additional health risk when it's used and 7 generally poses the same risks as the 8 wood that a typical home might be built 9 with. 10 There's also been concern about 11 dioxin that I've heard, and it's been 12 raised in the past, and the documentation 13 in my package before you shows that there 14 is an amount of dioxin used in the 15 production and manufacturing of PVC. 16 There is an emission of dioxin when PVC 17 burns, but the experts say it does not 18 leach from the pipe when it's used 19 underground. But the experts also say 20 that most of the other materials a home is built of also emit a similar level of dioxin, to include the wood in a wood-framed building that is used. I think generally, I mean, if a home is engulfed to the point where the 67 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 plastics that are in the walls are reacting with fire, then obviously at that point there should be known in there and the entire environment is really a toxic environment at that point. I also have a wide variety of quotes from scientists, code officials, fire departments and other government bodies that have faced the same decision as the City of Philadelphia is facing now, and I can tell you that as a builder, that the information that's available, as well as the International Plumbing Code, really gives us the comfort to use these products, and we do use them every day. Thank you.
Good afternoon. Scott Orens, Orens Brothers Incorporated. I'd like to thank Councilwoman Sanchez for allowing me to testify today and also like to thank Councilman Clarke for 68 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 introducing the bill. I will be brief. I'm a licensed master plumber in the City of Philadelphia. I'm also a developer. I've been a plumber in the City since 1989 and I've been a developer since 1980. The question before us is whether or not the City of Philadelphia should approve the use of affordable, efficient, viable, tested, approved products that are used in other townships, municipalities and cities in this country. My teenage daughter would say, Duh. The next statement I'm going to make might not be well received by the multitudes here, but I believe and the people with me believe that the real problem is, the Philadelphia Plumbers Union views these materials as a threat to their jobs, because these products require less labor to install. Since this would be such an obvious self-serving argument, they've chosen to 69 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 focus on the supposed health threats and inferiority of using these materials. I believe it's wrong to allow a relatively small group of people to dictate to the rest of the City in order to protect their own self-interests. Not just developers, but City residents and City government would realize the cost savings and benefits of using these materials. It should be noted that other cities with strong unions have approved the use of these materials. Secondly, more affordable means more projects could become viable and more plumbing work could be available, as well as more construction jobs for everyone. What is more affordable for the developer is also more affordable for the City when it does projects. As a resident of the City and a taxpayer, I believe that it is imperative that the City seeks to approve all cost-saving measures available to it. 70 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 When the City does a project, the use of these materials result in cost savings to the City, as I mentioned. City Council should not allow the tail to wag the dog. This proposal is good for developers, it's good for residents, it's good for the City and it's good for creating jobs, and ultimately I believe it's good for plumbers, and it's long overdue. Thank you.
Thank you, gentlemen. Any questions from the panel? I'm going to recognize Councilman Bill Greenlee.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Just very quickly. My original question was to Mr. McDonald, because I was reading your testimony, but I missed -- you said something about PVC and it's only a problem when it burns or something. I didn't quite follow what you meant by that. You say it's only a 71 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 problem when -- Mr. McDonald. Because I didn't see it in your study, but I didn't quite -- what do you mean by that? MR. McDONALD: Yes. What I was referring to is that the dangers that I've heard people speak of today was PVC burning, or ABS, in regards to either one of the polyvinyl chloride or the ABS product, and I was making the point that we are burning lead and breathing lead fumes in our homes now when we use the current Code. The only way that we would be breathing those chemicals or similar dangerous chemicals is if there was a fire where ABS were burning. And in this case --
And that does happen, right? MR. McDONALD: Well, I don't know about you, Councilman, but I'm normally not in a house while it's burning.
No, but there are some people that are. I can 72 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 get sarcastic back just like you can. (Applause.) MR. McDONALD: I understand that.
And, sir, I'll bet I'm better at it, if that's the way you want to go. MR. McDONALD: Councilman, I apologize. I didn't mean to be sarcastic. I was speaking to your point, and your point about PVC burning in the house is, while people are in the house, every other thing burning is dangerous and will kill you.
Okay. And also there's firefighters who go into those -- MR. McDONALD: Along with the wood and the other plastic products, and that what's I testified to.
But it does add, if it is a danger when burning obviously, it's an additional problem for anyone who might go into that building. 73 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 Obviously you and I are running out, but there's other people running in. MR. McDONALD: And I'm more speaking to the fact of the lead that's being burned in the house while the family is eating dinner and having the toxic fumes in themselves -- (Audience members yelling.)
Come on, folks. I'm going to have to ask the folks, if we continue like this -- we have to be respectful in our disagreements. Calling out, as I said, there is enough testimony on both sides of these issues for your concerns to be brought forward, but we have to be respectful.
Thank you. Has any person testified, Sam or anybody else, talked with the Plumbers 74 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 Union or others about this situation and the potential to work out a compromise --
-- that would allow residential development -- not at all?
Okay. I apologize. As I told the Chair, I have a longstanding 2:30 commitment. If there is a vote required, I will come back. It will take me about minutes to get 14 here. 15
Councilman, I just need one amendment. It's one that we all agree on.
Bill, 75 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 Councilman Clarke needs you to stay for this amendment.
It's one that we all agree on. It'll take two seconds. It's taking commercial out of the bill. I mean, everybody agrees on that.
I just want to offer to take the commercial -- I promised when I met with the gentlemen that I would take commercial out of the bill. I want to keep my promise, because if I tell you I'm going to do something, I'm going to do it. (Applause.)
I'm going to -- if Councilman Green will engage us for two minutes, I want to recognize Councilman Bill Greenlee to move the amendment proposed by Councilman 76 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 Clarke.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I move the amendment as previously stated, which would take the commercial properties out of this mix. (Duly seconded.)
I'm sorry. We have to recess the public hearing. We're going to, for the purposes of this, do the public meeting. And now Councilman Greenlee has moved that the amendment as proposed by Councilman Clarke be voted on. Councilwoman Blondell Reynolds said second. All in favor would say aye. (Aye.)
No 25 opposition. So we are accepting the 77 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 amendment as proposed to Bill 080953. Councilman Clarke, can we get this copied so some of the folks want --
Will and Councilman, can we circulate this amendment to the folks who are left to testify? I'm going to recess the public meeting and go back to the public hearing.
I'm sorry. While we're still in the public meeting, in case a vote occurs on Bill 080953, if a vote occurs, I will vote -- I'd like to be recorded, with the Chair's permission, as voting no on Bill 080953. (Applause.)
On Bill 21 080650 I'd like to be recorded as voting yes. Thank you.
Thank you. 78 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 So as previously stated, we will go back to our public hearing to hear the rest of the testimony. I'm going to recognize Councilwoman Blondell Reynolds who has questions for the panel currently at the witness table.
Let me thank you all for your testimony, first of all, and thank you for my answer to the question around what is environmentally acceptable at this juncture in our city and under this leadership where the Mayor has made it exceedingly clear that being environmentally responsible is the future and the future is now. To the questions and statements around lead, you should know that this legislative body has taken a lot of measures to look to see how we as a city can be more responsible when it comes to removing lead from homes, because there's still too many incidents where children 79 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 are adversely affected by lead. So the enlightenment that you shared with us around lead was welcomed. To this question what's happening across City Line Avenue, am I to understand that outside of Philadelphia, builders and developers do have a choice? Is that what I heard?
Yes, ma'am. In Conshohocken, buildings are being rezoned as accepting PVC.
In Conshohocken, the Millennium project, the one that caught on fire that had copper and cast, is now being rebuilt in PVC and PEX.
You have the ability to make that decision, as well as in Montgomery County, Bucks County -- (Audience member yelling "Not in Abington.") 80 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953
I'm sorry. I did not say Abington, but in those that I just referred to, you have that choice.
So then if you take that down a notch further, individual municipalities have that choice or not; is that what I'm hearing? Because isn't Abington in Montgomery County?
Yes. As far as I know, this is allowed in the National, International Codes, as well as the United States, Canada and it is approved by HUD for potable waters and for waste and sewer lines.
Okay, then. Thank you all for your testimony. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Any other questions from the panel? I want to recognize Councilman Clarke. Did you have a question? Your 81 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 light is on.
Okay. Thanks, panel, for coming. I'd like to call -- Fire Commissioner is here, who is going to testify as part of the Administration, if the Commissioner could come forward and give his testimony. (Witness approached witness table.)
Do you have written testimony, Commissioner? COMMISSIONER AYERS: No. 16
Okay. Thank you. You can begin. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Good afternoon. The Philadelphia Fire Department, we were asked about the bill 22 that is in question and how it related to the firefighters as relation to fire in a building and PVC piping. One of the things that we did was, we looked at the 82 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 codes, and, as you know, the International Code Council has approved these types of materials for buildings. Now, one of the things that we looked at was the environment that we find ourselves in as firefighters around plastics as related to PVC and other things, and when we stop and think about the fire load that something like that would add, it's not much different than what we face every day fighting fires in buildings and homes, plastics from telephones to televisions to stereo sets, things like that, and when we weighed it from what it would mean to firefighters going into that environment, looking at the enhancements that we have technologically today, self-contained breathing apparatus, making sure that those safety issues for our firefighters are adhered to, the different poisons that are in the gases and the fumes that are given off. We have a system where we clean our running gear at least once a 83 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 year. We would like to do it twice a year. That's a program that we're starting to implement. But we actually clean those toxins out of our running gear, because we know they're in the environment now. We're looking at this bill and we don't feel like it's going to have an impact on us as what we do as far as going in and fighting fires at this point. We looked at some other cities that have PVC in their building code and we looked at the fire codes as far as how they all handle those issues, and it's pretty much the same as the way the Philadelphia Fire Department looks at that. It doesn't add a great load to the firefighter as far as what's already there. Our goal in the City of Philadelphia is to stop the fire in the first place, and that's where most of our focus is. The safety focus is that any 84 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 time any of our members have to enter an environment like that, that they are protected with self-contained breathing apparatus and all of their personal safety equipment is in place, and those are the things that we face.
Thank you. Are there any questions from the panel? The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Blondell Reynolds Brown.
I'm lost. I was not able to determine whether or not you are in support of the bill or not in support of the bill. COMMISSIONER AYERS: As far as the allowance of the two items, ABS and PVC, we are not against the bill.
Thank you, 85 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 Madam Chair. Councilwoman -- and I don't want to speak for the Commissioner -- we asked the Commissioner to be here to talk about the fire and safety issue, not the bill --
-- whether or not PVC saves money. I did not want him -- because that's really not his responsibility.
I just wanted him to be here to talk about it, because it had been raised to us in our discussions about the concern as it relates to fires. So we had asked the Commissioner to talk about the issue with respect to what would be emitted as a result of a fire in a building that has PVC, be it three stories or ten stories. My assumption is that the 86 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 emissions from the building is going to be the same if it's three stories or ten stories as relates to PVC. That's not a difference. And I just didn't understand that discussion. If it's safe for a three-story building, why is it not safe for a ten-story building.
I'm not asking that question, because that's just a part of the discussion that we've been having, because I've genuinely tried to understand why we can't use this. And I've been as open as possible, and I hate to get on the soapbox, because the more --
I'm just at a loss as to why, if it's okay for three stories -- and I understand -- and in our debate, I want to acknowledge publicly that the representatives put a counteroffer to go up to four stories in 87 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 ten units, which wouldn't help with respect to the affordable housing. Then it's four stories. If it's not safe for ten stories, then it shouldn't be safe for four stories. But we asked the Commissioner to just come here and talk about the safety issue as it relates to emissions, is it any different than any other emissions that would happen as a result of a fire in a building. Because, I mean, obviously if a rug burns, if you breathe the toxins emitted from a rug burning, it's not safe. So that's why we asked him, not the merits of this bill.
That's very, very helpful. Because I would suspect when you go into a building, it doesn't matter what started it or what the materials are. You have one goal and one objective, and that's to clear up the fire. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Exactly; to mitigate the damage, ensure the safety 88 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 of any occupants, ensure the safety of our firefighters as well. When we go into buildings today, if you took piping and threw it in the building, the issue that we would have in a pile of ABS piping or PVC piping would be different from what it would be like if it's in a sprinkler system or if it's in a waste system or some system that's piping water in. Two different things. It's very dangerous, it's very flammable, all of those things, but installed and in its place, it's no 15 different than the telephone being very dangerous sitting on a bureau and giving off -- melting down fire, giving off the same toxins. These are the things that we see. We talk to our firefighters about those things. We talk about fire load. Once we went to plastics and the plastics and chemical industries took over in building materials, as well as appliances, household goods, things like 89 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 that, the fire service had to make a conscious decision to make a transition, ensuring that we all had self-contained breathing apparatus. We understood the high temperatures that we would face going into these buildings, and it doesn't change with this bill one way or another.
Any other questions from the panel to the Commissioner? (No response.)
Thank you, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Thank you.
So we will move along to our next panel that includes Nora Lichtash from WCRP, George Gould from Community Legal Services, Jannine Miller from, I believe, Project 90 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 HOME and Darrell Zaslow from the Homeowners Association. (Witnesses approached witness table.)
And then we will move to the President of the Firefighters, Mr. McBride, John Kane from the Plumbers Union for the second panel -- for the third panel. Thank you, folks. Good afternoon. Identify yourself for the record and proceed with your testimony. If you have written testimony -- I know Nora's came in. I don't have George Gould.
My name is Nora 91 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 Lichtash. I work with the Women's Community Revitalization Project, and at WCRP, we build and rehab housing and we also work with others to make sure that policies make sense for families in the neighborhood, especially housing policies. I'm here to speak in support of the proposed ordinance to amend the Philadelphia Building Code by providing for the use of plastic pipe in certain circumstances, and the reason I'm here is based on my experience in affordable housing. I've been doing it for more than years, and WCRP has been building 17 affordable housing with union labor for 18 all that time. 19 I believe the passage of this 20 ordinance will make it easier for groups like ours to build more affordable housing, which is desperately needed. But there's also an opportunity here in addition for fighting for lower costs for construction. There's an opportunity to 92 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 use this investment to leverage additional resources for affordable housing, and that's really why I'm here. Councilman Clarke, along with many of you -- and we really appreciate it -- have paved a way for this to happen. When you've passed the first part of the inclusionary housing bill in December '07, this bill required market-rate developers to include affordable housing in their developments or contribute to the City's Housing Trust Fund to support the creation and preservation of affordable housing. But what we know is that inclusionary housing won't take place, this bill doesn't work unless you in Council pass a companion piece of legislation that provides incentives for developers. And all inclusionary housing has to have these incentives, and we're totally in support of those incentives. WCRP, in coalition with some other folks from the Philadelphia 93 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 Campaign for Housing Justice, believe that this proposed legislation should be combined with other incentives to trigger the implementation of inclusionary housing. We recommend additional incentives, such as expedited permitting, density bonuses and reduction of parking requirements. Once inclusionary housing is implemented, it will provide much-needed housing resources. There's just so many folks -- I know all of you know -- in your districts and throughout the City who need more and better affordable housing, rental homeownership and home repair, and that's just one program I wanted to talk about for a minute. A group of advocates last week unveiled a report that showed that the Basic Systems Repair and preserving housing is really important, that we're losing more housing to abandonment than we are to foreclosure, which is pretty startling here in Philly. And we know 94 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 that the City program that deals with this, called BSRP, the average grant is 7,000. So if we don't start putting money into the Housing Trust Fund and more resources into affordable housing, then we're stuck with a bigger problem down the road, because if we don't keep houses fixed up with 7,000, it costs us 22,000, everyone in here, taxpayers, 22,000 to knock down a house. If a family can't stay in their house because it's not in good enough shape, it costs us 21,000 to keep a family in shelter. If our parents, senior citizens, people disabled have to move out of their house because they can't stay in a house because it's not in decent shape, it costs 40,000 to us in the City to keep them in there. So that's why I'm talking about this. As a developer, I recognize the value of lowering costs of development, but we need to combine these kind of incentives with sound policy, like 95 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 inclusionary housing, to create more resources for affordable housing. Thanks.