Good afternoon, Committee members. Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to testify today on the proposed ordinance to allow PVC piping to be used in construction and renovation projects. My name is Jannine Miller and I'm the Coordinator of Education Advocacy at Project HOME and I'm also on the Steering Committee of the Philadelphia Campaign for Housing Justice. I'm here today to offer a perspective on how this bill can be used as an incentive to implement inclusionary housing in Philadelphia. Thanks to the leadership of Councilman Clarke, we are very close to having an effective inclusionary housing program in the City. Back in December 2007, so over a year ago, City Council 96 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 passed Bill No. 071005-A, which established an inclusionary housing program. Unfortunately, this important bill will not take effect until the City passes a companion bill of incentives or cost offsets for housing developers. The Philadelphia Campaign for Housing Justice -- and we're a coalition of about 35 City-based organizations. Our members, constituents, clients, we total more than 100,000 people -- support inclusionary housing as just one method for the City to address the current affordable housing crisis. Councilman Clarke's legislation on PVC pipe is a step towards the need of incentives if it ultimately becomes part of a larger incentive package. In addition to the use of PVC piping, there are other developer incentives that the City should consider. Back in May, in May 2008, the Building Industry Association suggested other incentives in a report that they 97 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 put out. These suggestions included expedited permitting and processing, reduced parking requirements, tax credits for the business privilege tax, and also density bonuses. So these are some other things that could be considered as part of that package. In addition to providing the comprehensive homeless services that Project HOME is so well known for, we also have partnered with community residents and local businesses and community leaders to address the root causes of homelessness up in North Central Philadelphia, up in Councilman Clarke's district. That area is known as the St. Elizabeth/Diamond Street neighborhood. We have rehabbed and sold a total of 43 houses to first-time homeowners as part of our neighborhood revitalization efforts. We are always seeking ways to reduce our costs and improve our efficiency. We understand that the use of 98 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 PVC pipe will reduce construction costs and hopefully pave the way for additional lower costs but, equally effective, mechanical and conveyance systems that can be used in housing development and also in green construction. It's critical to make sure that this cost reduction measure is combined with measures that will ensure the implementation of inclusionary housing. More than one-third of Philadelphia households earn less than $20,000 a year, and the median income for a family of four is just $33,000. Project HOME and the Philadelphia Campaign for Housing Justice encourages City Council to finish the inclusionary housing bill so that our city can create the needed housing that is affordable to low- and moderate-income Philadelphians, their families, senior citizens and people with disabilities. I appreciate the opportunity to testify today on this matter and also for 99 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 your leadership on the issue. Please don't hesitate to contact us at any time if we can be helpful. Thank you.
Good afternoon. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, for giving us the opportunity to testify today. I don't want to repeat what has been said, but I am -- my name, by the way, is George Gould. I'm with Community Legal Services and I'm counsel for the Campaign for Housing Justice. What I wanted to do was simply reiterate the importance of City Council passing incentives, which trigger the inclusionary housing bill, which was passed in the end of 2007. As everyone is aware, that bill -- that program is in place, but because the incentives are not in place, affordable housing is not being built under it and money is not being contributed to the Housing Trust Fund. What we would like is that this kind of a program, which creates a clear 100 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 incentive to developers and reduces their cost, with several of the other incentives, be made clear in an ordinance 5 that this is the trigger and because of that trigger, the inclusionary housing program is passed and is actually implemented. The problems of lack of affordable housing in this city, we certainly don't have to repeat. Everyone is aware that it's virtually impossible to get into public housing. It's virtually impossible to get Section 8. It's extraordinarily difficult to get into any subsidized housing developments. It's very difficult for people who are even above those income guidelines to find decent housing, and what we need and what we need very quickly is those incentives to be passed and the City Council to make it clear that the incentives are in place and the inclusionary housing program starts. Thank you. 101 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953
Thank you, Madam Chairman. Madam Chairman, Darrell Zaslow, legal counsel for HAPCO, the Homeowners Association of Philadelphia. As you may be aware, HAPCO represents approximately 3,000 owners and managers of rental real estate in the City, representing tens of thousands of housing units throughout the City of Philadelphia. We are here today in support of Councilman Clarke's bill, and our support arises out of the same reasons that PVC piping has been permitted in cities across the country. The cost savings is obviously significant. Now, our members are not generally involved in construction of new homes, but we are frequently -- in fact, constantly -- called upon to replace plumbing in existing properties, which we offer for rent. These significant savings in 102 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 allowing PVC will make it easier for property owners to keep rents at a reasonable level, and both landlords and tenants will realize a significant benefit. Madam Chairwoman, it is highly unusual for my very good friend and arch nemesis in the law, George Gould, with whom I have battled incessantly for over 30 years --
Yes. I see that. For us to sit at the same table joining in recommending this bill to you, I would submit, is significant. The Committee may be aware and should be aware of the very extensive criminal activity which surrounds copper piping in housing. As soon as a house becomes vacant, Madam Chairwoman, as soon as a house becomes vacant, waiting for a new tenant of my owners to move in, the houses are targeted by the copper piping 103 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 thieves. We are constantly subjected to theft of all the copper and all of the fittings from a house. I will share with you personally that I have experienced theft of all the piping and fittings from one house two times in the last months 8 in the 19146 zip code. The same house, 9 twice in 12 months. Refitted the entire 10 house. It had to be completely refitted 11 because of the thievery. 12 Now, the police are busy, and they take a report. They don't really take any further action. We understand. There's significant issues --
Thank you. The police are busy and for them to come to an apartment house and worry about copper piping which has been stolen, there's a great deal more going on from their perspective that we need their services on. But the result is a house which is killed by vandalism. 104 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 The thieves, for a very modest amount, wherever they get the money for their copper that they sell, despite the efforts of this Council to forbid that kind of activity, for a few dollars, they absolutely destroy a house. And the negative impact is just not compensable. You don't go to your insurance company for a thousand-dollar bill. You have a deductible and then you have claims, which your premiums are going to go up. Now, a Google search, Madam Chairwoman, revealed that almost every city in the country has faced this same problem. And the news articles, which I perused this morning before coming here, is always the same. And Chicago is the first one that comes up. It's typical. And here's what the news reports read: "After years of yielding to political pressure from the Plumbers Union, the Chicago City Council finally approved the use of PVC pipe." That was back in 1990. Now, in my organization, we 105 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 need plumbers desperately. We are a consumer of the services provided by our plumbers. We need competent plumbers, and we will always need plumbers. But enactment of this bill is not going to prohibit anyone from using cast iron or copper. Certain owners may still prefer those materials, and certain plumbers may well be able to convince a developer or a builder or a property owner who needs to renovate a property that they should not use PVC. And nothing in the bill is forbidding the use of copper, but the choice should be with the property owners. Madam Chairwoman, given the enormity of the fiscal problems facing our city and the newest proposals which we're just hearing about to raise the taxes on our property owners, and this honorable Council, I understand, tomorrow is going to be faced -- I wish you good luck dealing with what you need to deal with with proposals to start raising our 106 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 property taxes. Anything that can be done to minimize the cost to property owners providing decent housing to low- and moderate-income individuals should be supported by this Committee and the Council. We thank Councilman Clarke for introducing the bill, having the fortitude to stand as the sole Councilmember introducing such a bill and to stand the onslaught which obviously comes into this Chamber. We thank you very much for your consideration.
Thank you. Any questions from the members of the Committee to the panel? The Chair recognizes Councilman Kelly.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to know -- I heard a lot about affordable housing. I just 107 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 want to know, how much is affordable housing? What kind of perimeters do we have here? What is affordable housing? Can anyone answer that?
Well, I think the word "affordable housing" is used to describe a lot of things, but really "affordable" is based on your income. So if my income were $20,000, I could afford $500 in rent or mortgage a month. I should be paying roughly no more than 30 percent of my income.
Well, I'm looking at a developer's point of view building these homes. What's it going to cost him to build it?
Well, I think this is one reason why we're here. The cost of housing is very -- to build a house is high.
I understand that, but I'm wondering, are there any current construction of affordable housing going on now, and, if so, what 108 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 are they charging for that housing?
Well, I do rental housing. I don't know if there's anyone who wants to answer for homeownership, but I think roughly a house that goes under a homeownership program that is subsidized in this city can cost anywhere from like 80,000 to 105,000. The rents for the units that my organization builds start at $90 a month and go up to $550 a month.
Point of information. I think, Nora, if you have this experience, I think the Councilman is asking, how much does it cost to build a new unit in the City, not what you actually sell it for.
Sure. It costs more than $200,000 often, depending on subsurface conditions.
And how much would a person have to put out in a monthly mortgage payment for that? 109 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953
Well, that's what I'm saying. I don't do much homeownership, but roughly if you sold your house for 85,000, I don't know, is the mortgage about 500? I don't know. Depending on the interest rate.
Thank you. Councilman, I want to give you an example, and this is probably on the high side. The Philadelphia Housing Authority has built a number of developments, both homeownership and rental, in the last couple of years, and they probably -- their construction cost is probably the highest among most non-profits, because they build things -- they maximize it in terms of what they build. It's good stuff. Right now they are selling units for $160,000 in West Philadelphia 110 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 and in East Falls. In actually Ludlow 140, the units cost 300,000 to build, and that's where the problem is, is that --
Well, what kind of pipes are they using in that construction?
They are using the same as the Code. Because it's affordable, it doesn't -- (Audience members yelling.)
Hold it, gentlemen. I said the Code. Gentlemen, please. I said they're building what the Code allows. The Code allows PVC, right? (Applause.)
But if -- and I wasn't going to say this, but if they build a house that is more than three stories or more than four units, they cannot use PVC. In the Housing Authority right now on Warnock Street in my district, they're building a building 111 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 that's higher than --
So, in other words, what you're saying is that affordable housing could not use PVC. Is that what you're saying?
No. This is the problem: More often than not, when it's affordable housing, the rental side of it is where the problem is, because the rental developments always have more than four units. So once you have a rental development, which most of the non-profits build, because that's where most of the funding is, they're always required to use copper and iron, because it's above the four-house unit. So the sale of those units only come into play when there's condominiums. Say, for instance, if a developer builds a 20-story condominium -- I see Mr. Orens. He built the one down at 22nd and Arch. Because that was above three stories and was more than four units, they had to build with 112 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 copper --
Councilman, you made my point. That's why we're trying to get the development community as a part of an agreement that require to build -- one of those for every 20, one of those units should be affordable, because the average person can't afford some of the units associated with those condominiums. That's the issue. That's the underlying issue.
Thank you, Madam Chair. 113 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953
Thank you. Any other questions to the panel? (No response.)
Thank you very much for coming. If we can now go to Brian McBride, John Kane, Walt Krzyzanowski, if it's okay with you, and up to Michael Ingram. And then we'll do Greg Simmons, Tim Brink, Bice LeVan and Sean Cleary. (Witnesses approached witness table.)
You can start. MR. McBRIDE: Councilwoman Sanchez, Councilwoman Krajewski, Councilwoman Reynolds Brown, Councilman Greenlee and Councilman Kelly, I'm Brian McBride, President of IAFF, Local 22, representing 2,000 active firefighters. The Fire Commissioner was here earlier, and no surprise to me, he took 114 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 the Administration's stance on this bill. But earlier today we shared a moment together up in Logan laying a plaque for a firefighter, Lieutenant Derrick Harvey, who lost his life in the line of duty January 15, 2004. That plaque cost $1,500. And we actually did them back in October. As Councilwoman Krajewski remembers, we did plaques back then for her uncle and ten other firefighters who lost their lives in an explosion. The cost of a firefighter funeral for an active-duty death is about $15,000. Then you have the cost involved with the benefits for his children and his widow, and a lot of that is funds raised by like the Hero Thrill Show and things like that. And the reason I'm going down this road about cost is because there's another cost involved, too: The cost of the widow and the children. It's a tough thing. It's a tough thing. I heard a lot about cost today. 115 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 What cost do you put on a life of a firefighter? I don't want to send my members home to say, I got a little brain cancer or a little liver cancer because a little PVC put out the toxic gas that's a known human carcinogen. It's there. It's there. The citizens of Philadelphia rely on this Council to protect them. You work for their safety, just like I do. The firefighters of the City of Philadelphia are all citizens. This Council's past laws on trans fats to protect the citizens, on smoking bans to protect the citizens, and a year or so ago Councilman Kelly introduced a bill for hearing protection for firefighters, which passed this Council, to protect our hearing, our health and safety. So when significantly heated, PVC-containing material releases vinyl chloride, exposing firefighters. Burning PVC is toxic to firefighters. You don't 116 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 get a little bit of cancer this way or a little bit of cancer that way. It's toxic. It's going to kill us. I can't tell you how much it bothered me that people were talking about cost before they were talking about safety. This is about safety, the safety of the firefighters and the citizens we serve. Choice? You have a choice. You have a choice. Protect the citizens. And then people coming up here and sitting and testifying justifying stuff like a smoke screen, burning lead and burning wood. I've been a firefighter for 34 years. I've never seen burning lead. Melting lead? Yes. Never seen burning lead. But you can't put -- you can't get a little cancer and you can't put a price on a life of a firefighter. You just can't do it. So I'm asking you -- I sent you all a letter with a mortality study. It clearly associates the toxic 117 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 fumes that burning PVC puts off to firefighter deaths very clearly, many studies, cited many cases. This is clearly bad stuff, and if I have my way, there would be none of it. (Applause.) MR. McBRIDE: So I'll ask the Council, Local respectfully requests 10 you reject this bill and protect the 11 firefighters. 12 Thank you. 13 (Applause.) 14
Madam Chair, good 15 afternoon. Members of City Council, good 16 afternoon. My name is John Kane, 17 registered master plumber, City of 18 Philadelphia, No. 4190, Business Manager 19 of Plumbers Local 690, City of 20 Philadelphia. 21 It gives me great pleasure to 22 speak on behalf of my entire membership of over 2,000. Plumbers Union Local 690 strongly opposes Councilman Clarke's Bill 25 080953, which would amend the 118 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 Philadelphia Plumbing Code by expanding the use of ABS plastic pipe and PVC plastic pipe, under certain terms and conditions. 5 allows ABS plastic pipe and PVC plastic pipe to be limited to installations in buildings containing dwelling units only. Such buildings shall consist from one to four families and shall not exceed three stories in height. For this purpose, basements are not considered a story height. On several occasions, Councilman Clarke and I have spoke about affordable housing. I got to agree with the Councilman, I felt our conversations to be very informative, and I appreciate that. For instance, the understanding that certain projects we're dedicating a portion for affordable housing. Taking 119 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 this into consideration, we believe that a compromise could be reached. 2, Underground Sanitary Drainage Pipe, we expanded to allow for thermal expansion in the underground system and also the manufacturer's specification of underground installation of plastic pipe. 5, we expanded the use from three stories to four stories and expanded it from one to four families to one to ten families. I believe this was a compromise that not only could I live with but also my membership. I must compliment the committee of plumbers that L&I formed, who worked tirelessly over this issue. It's not every day that union contractors and non-signatory contractors come to an agreement. I'm sorry to say the Councilman did not agree with our proposal. I have also spoken to 120 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 Councilman Clarke about the dangers of PVC. I believe that the Councilman has taken the lives of our firefighters, my members and the people that reside in this great city too lightly. I have brought with me a CD on the fire of the MGM Grand in Las Vegas, Nevada, which I find to be very frightening. I believe this video speaks volumes about PVC fueling a fire and the toxic fumes that killed most. We have major concerns with plastic pipe. These range from the glues and primers associated with the joining method that is required. The label on these containers of glues and primers state that long-term repeated overexposures to solvents may cause damage to the brain, nervous system, reproductive system, respiratory system, mucus membranes, liver and kidneys. Every day we hear that Philadelphia wants to be the largest green city. David Masur, Director of 121 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 PennEnvironment, is an advocate for a greener environment. He gave me information to pass on, which I have also in my pamphlet that I would like to give to you. PVC is known as the poison plastic. PVC plastic is one of the most hazardous consumer products ever created. PVC is dangerous to human health and the environment through its entire cycle. Think about the ten percent of wasted pipe figured on any plumbing project. Most ends up in a dumpster that goes into a landfill forever. PVC cannot be recycled due to many different toxic additives used to soften or stabilize PVC. Cast iron and copper, on the other hand, can be recycled. Most of our members are encouraged to scrap precious metals because of their scrap value. Cast iron and copper are sorted out and recycled at all scrap yards. If we are talking green, cast iron and copper are, hands down, greener for the environment. 122 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 If this city wants to talk the talk about going green, eliminate all PVC. Every member I represent made plumbing their career.
Overexposure to these toxins will become common practice, and future ailments will follow. I want to thank the PennEnvironment Director, David Masur, for the support and all the other individuals that are going to be testifying today for their support also. And I plead with the members of City Council to stand with the members of the plumbing community by opposing this bill 16 unanimously. Remember, plumbers protect the health of the nation. )
Good afternoon, Chairperson Quinones-Sanchez, Vice-Chairman Krajewski and members of City Council. Thank you for the opportunity to allow me to offer my opinions, my organization's opinions and the plumbing community regarding Bill No. 123 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 080953. My name is Walt Krzyzanowski. I'm a registered master plumber in the City of Philadelphia. My registration number is 2749. I am President of the Plumbing Contractors Association and the Union Affiliated Contractors of Local 690 and Vicinity. I am a member and a trustee of Plumbers Local 690. I'm an executive Board member and a past President of the Pennsylvania State Organization of Plumbing, Heating and Cooling Contractors. I am sure you will hear a great deal of testimony touching on many aspects of this bill, raising from the most important issue, which is consumer safety, to the negative economic impact to the building industry passing this legislation would cause. I am a second-generation City of Philadelphia master plumber. I have made the trade of plumbing my life and my career for well over 30 years. I'm proud to say that my son is a third-generation 124 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 master plumber and is carrying out the proud tradition of our family business that begun in 1956. In my years of the plumbing field, I have lived through and have been a part of many changes to the industry, some good, some not so good. I have studied the history of plumbing and have tracked the advancements made through the years to the industry through research development, trial and error, and the evaluation of cause and effect to each and every change to materials, installation procedures and Code changes. One thing has not changed in well over 100 years in the plumbing industry, and, that is, the universal belief that the plumber protects the health of the nation. In my discussions with Councilman Clarke, his main focus was on residential affordable housing and how it relates to the Plumbing Code in the City of Philadelphia. I have pointed out many 125 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 times to the Councilman that the use of PVC piping in residential housing is already permissible under our current Philadelphia Plumbing Code. The use of PVC piping is permitted in multi-dwelling units consisting of four family units or less and residential structures that do not exceed 30 feet in height. The members of my organization, the plumbing community, respectfully requests this City Council Committee to reject the aforementioned irresponsible and thoughtless legislation. We are against this legislation, first and foremost, based on the obvious and most important issue, which is the issue of safety. I am sure you will hear testimony today pointing out tremendous safety and health concerns with PVC being present in emergent situations such as a fire. When PVC is present in a fire situation, it drastically reduces the evacuation time of the occupants before 126 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 being overcome by very toxic chlorine gas and many other toxins which are emitted by PVC which is exposed to extreme heat and flame. The main focus of my testimony is to point out the negative economic impact adopting this legislation would have with expanding the use of PVC piping in commercial and high-rise applications. Many engineering and technical methods have to be followed when installing PVC pipe greater than 35 stories vertically. All of these methods involved increased costs. When installing PVC vertically, a device know as an expansion control fitting has to be installed in every 35-foot interval. Although the initial purchase price of PVC piping is considerably less than cast iron, the expansion control devices are very costly. The fire-stopping of PVC passing through floors and wall penetrations is also very costly.
The fire-stopping 127 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 materials and procedures last only a maximum of to years before they 4 have to be renewed. 5 PVC piping is not permitted in 6 many applications where it would be 7 exposed to a ventilation system. This 8 means increased costs would be incurred 9 by having to incapsulate the PVC piping 10 in a flame-proof barrier. 11 My company was recently 12 requested by an engineering firm to 13 evaluate the cost difference between PVC 14 versus cast iron installation at a job 15 site in Montgomery County. In Montgomery County where PVC piping is widespread, the use of PVC piping is widespread, a problem was noticed by a building inspector that PVC piping was present and would cause an adverse effect to the ventilation system in the building. Through research and evaluation, it was determined the installation of PVC piping would have increased the cost of over 30 percent over the use of cast iron piping 128 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 in the same installation. In conclusion, the use of PVC piping in commercial and high-rise applications would greatly increase the cost of the plumbing installation, reduce the longevity of the installation and compromise the health and safety of the occupants and the structure. My organization and the plumbing community are opposed to this legislation. We are not opposed to the responsible use of PVC piping, as currently described in the Philadelphia Plumbing Code. We also are not opposed to correctly exploring the possible expanded use of PVC piping. Councilman Clarke has made it clear to the plumbing community he is not concerned with the health and safety aspect of PVC piping. As professionals, we are very concerned. The ultimate goal of City Council, City L&I administration and the professional plumbing community should be 129 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 to protect the health, safety, as well as the rights of every citizen of this great city. That was my written testimony and thanks for hearing it. )
Thank you. I do have a couple points I would like to point out as to the testimony of some of the other panel people. First, the gentleman from Westrum stated that there was a potential million-dollar savings to a development that they were considered to build. If PVC piping was able to be used in that particular situation, would Westrum then give that million-dollar savings back to the buyers? (Applause.)
The Fire Commissioner stated that his people have advanced gear and breathing apparatus going into a fire situation. That's no 130 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 doubt. And as a result of many years of effort, the firefighters are protected. The concern that we have is, what about the people in the building? They don't have breathing apparatus. And if you want to put PVC in a 30-story high-rise condominium, how is the people on the 30th floor going to make it to the basement or to outside to escape the flames without that breathing apparatus? That's all I have. Thank you very much. (Applause.)
Good afternoon, Councilwoman Sanchez and Committee. My name is Michael Ingram, registered master plumber, President of Master Plumbers Association, Second Vice of Pennsylvania Plumbing, Heating, Cooling Contractors Association. I would like to thank you for this opportunity to speak on behalf of the Educational Development Committee. The Educational Development 131 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 Committee was put in place by the Department of License and Inspection Plumbing Unit in order to take the existing plumbers examination and have it computerized. The Committee is a cross-section of industry-specific representative such as union, non-union, administrative, field personnel, instructors, code enforcers, plan examiners and business owners, all under the auspice of the International Code Council. We have met on numerous occasions, given up valuable time, revenue and energy on behalf of the Committee. Those who teach the Plumbing Code has signed non-disclosure statements which caused them to pass up additional income for the work that they perform on behalf of this Committee. This product has been developed and delivered to allow future journey persons and master plumbers the ability to be tested at designated computer centers. 132 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 Members of the Committee have met with Councilman Clarke to support his efforts on broadening the use of PVC. We reviewed his concerns and agree that the responsible use of PVC in residential and possibly some mixed properties are not only acceptable but desired. However, avoid PVC in the use in the commercial environment. Again, this Committee carries this assignment on behalf of the Department, which we have received no 14 compensation from the City, which was mutual, to perform these services. As you're aware, we're lacking in the number of field inspectors due to internal policy procedures and mandates. Also, we no longer have a Plumbing Advisory Board to address issues such as these. We have high regards for our profession, protecting the health and safety of the nation, particularly the City of Philadelphia. We are asking for 133 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 your support for recreating the Plumbing Advisory Board or a recognized body to deal with the issues such as this and other problems, changes or concerns dealing with the Plumbing Code. We have expressed -- (Applause.)
We have expressed with License and Inspection Commissioner Fran Burns and Deputy Commissioner Mike Fink that the members of the Advisory Committee are willing to carry out the functions and duties of the previous Board in a progressive, financially sound and ecological fashion without being compensated, such as we have with the Waterfront Commission and the meeting we had yesterday with the Mayor's Advisory Commission on Construction Industry Diversity. We're willing to carry this out at no compensation. We wish, in a harmonious environment, to be the committee that would be the liaison between the government, industry and 134 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 business. Thank you for your time and attention on this matter. Thank you. (Applause.)
Thank you. I want to recognize Councilwoman Blondell Reynolds Brown.
Thank you, gentlemen, for your testimony, and thank you for the additional enlightenment. What I hear on this notion or expectation of being green is that both sides believe that the use of their particular material at the end of the day based on documented research, Mr. Kane, is green. Would that be fair to say?
It's far greener than PVC pipe and ABS pipe. Cast iron and copper, yes.
Are you going to submit copies of your testimony so that we can have -- 135 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953
-- the background from the University of Pennsylvania? The committee that you spoke of, are you suggesting in your testimony that had this committee been in place, we may be at a different place with regards to finding some common ground on this particular issue?
It has not been disbanded. We are in concert with the Commissioner to formulate and to come up with its title, and that's where we are currently.
Okay. Help me out with that. So it's a function of your profession, correct?
It's not a function of City government? 136 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953
Have you advised government on -- you then advise government or work with professionals in L&I around matters of this type to find some common ground?
Right. It initially started out as a testing committee, and because the harmony that the group has accomplished over the months, that we felt that this could carry on into another area, replacing what was taken from us, and that's the Plumbing Advisory Board. That we feel that with the cross-section of industry and the vast knowledge and experience, that we could continue and deal with some of the issues to help the Department out, because our profession is being challenged with the lack of inspections and the lack of a process such as this. We can get this done, not in a cost fashion of this nature. 137 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953
The Educational Development Committee. Prior to the -- no; subsequent to the Plumbing Advisory Board.
And that is the committee you believe, if still in place, would help find some common ground; is that what I'm hearing?
Some additional questions here. Mr. Walter -- I don't want to mess up your last name -- on your testimony, you say, "Although the initial purchase" -- that's not it. The one where you talk about -- last page of your testimony. "We're not opposed to the responsible use of PVC piping." What 138 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 would you consider responsible?
What we would consider the responsible use of PVC piping is already spelled out in the Philadelphia Plumbing Code, and that is what has been adhered to over the last 30 years when PVC was introduced into our marketplace.
And I'm not a plumber, let the record show, but I am interested in knowing what the Code reads. So what does it read? Somewhere in the testimony it was mentioned.
The Code specifically reads now is the use of PVC is allowed in residential dwellings that are from single-family dwelling to a maximum of four-dwelling units. So four families per one building. And a maximum of 30 stories in height -- I apologize. A maximum of three stories in height.
Wow. Not 30. Okay. Then you say, "We are not 139 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 opposed to correctly exploring the possible expanded use of PVC piping." What would that be, "possible expanded use of PVC piping"?
Councilwoman, what that would include would be possibly expanding the use of PVC piping in the light commercial applications --
Expanding the use of PVC piping into certain light commercial applications. But the Committee would have to evaluate the cause and effect of a potential change, a potential change like being introduced by Councilman Clarke. He doesn't exactly do the research to evaluate the cause and effect. And what I mean by that is, what the cause of this change, the effect it would actually have on the consumers of Philadelphia. In our opinion and the research that we've developed, it would 140 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 actually have an adverse effect.
And also the economic effect. Because done correctly, no one before us on the panel talked about PVC piping, talked about the installation procedures, that PVC piping, if it's installed as per manufacturer's specifications, the preparation work to put it in the ground increases the cost threefold as opposed to using cast iron pipe in the ground.
So is that to suggest that the cost could be close to equal once you factor in installation?
The cost could either be equal or in some instances more, cost more to use PVC piping. See, the dissimilarities end when you go -- when any of us in the professional community here go into a plumbing supply house and we buy ten foot 141 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 of four-inch PVC that costs $25 versus a ten-feet length of four-inch cast iron that costs $60 or $70. That is where the dissimilarities end. None of the people that have testified before us had testified to the installation procedures for PVC and PEX tubing, that it actually costs more and it's more labor intensive to install this particular type of material in most instances between support, over-excavating a trench, having to dispose of the spoils that goes into a landfill, the fireproofing aspect of it. So in the opinion of the professional community and the research that we've done, we have demonstrated that in most instances it does cost more to install the PVC piping. It certainly costs less to buy it, but it certainly costs more to install it.
The Chair recognizes Councilman Clarke. 142 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953
Thank you, Madam Chair. Good afternoon, gentlemen. Again, I just want to reiterate, it's been a pleasure working with you all on those many, many weeks and months, and it was refreshing. Unfortunately, we are -- and I wouldn't even call it adversarial, because I believe we agree on more than we disagree. It's a case with respect to the numbers in terms of how far we should go. So we all agree that we should do something. I do want to say that I do take exception with a couple of statements that were made about me not caring about the health and safety of the citizens. I take exception with that, because at no 20 time obviously did I say that and --
See, now we're not going to have -- I never said that, and I never had a meeting with you 143 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 alone, so if anybody else can sit here and say I did that --
I've had Mr. Ingram, Mr. McStravick, Mr. Kane were present at the same meeting.
Sir, I never said that. I am a Councilmember. I would consider myself a responsible member of government, and I would never say that I don't care about the health and safety of the citizens. That is like utterly ridiculous. The other issue with respect to the million dollars, if somehow it was a million dollars realized as a result of the savings, you need to understand that the only way -- and this is what the advocates were getting at -- that I'd be supportive of this initiative being in place is if it gets us to affordable housing. So if there's a cost savings of a million dollars, it's not going, frankly speaking, to somebody's pocket or to -- it's going to go to affordable 144 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 housing. That's my game plan. (Audience members yelling.)
So the savings associated with the development reduction in cost, be it whatever, PVC or whatever, that's the purpose of doing that, so you can build affordable housing. Because all affordable housing is going to have to be subsidized. So we wouldn't do this just so people could benefit financially. That's just not our game plan. With respect to the installation -- and we had lengthy discussions with you about that, and that's again where you guys gave me some insight and knowledge about the installation -- the higher you go, the more expensive that it costs, and I confirmed that with other people, because I believe in checking all sources. What we're simply saying is that people should 145 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 have that option. If somehow the developer figures, If I go eight stories, this is not cost effective, I'm assuming that if this is the developer that has any sense of business, he'd opt to go a different direction and install cast iron. So what we're saying, we're not requiring that they do PVC or any other material. We're just simply trying to give people an option. You referenced the fact in the suburban area where they installed it and they found out that, You know what, this is not working for us the way it was installed. Then that person made that choice, right, so, therefore, that's on that person. So all we're talking about is giving people options. And I want to again say that based on the installation issue that we talked about at length, I understand the further you go up, the more skill sets you should have, and I 146 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 agree with that. And I talked about the fact that -- and I didn't know how we were going to do it, but ensuring that there was language that made sure that the installation reflected all of the issues, both safety and longevity, and ensuring that the skill set associated with that installer is inserted in the bill. So I say all that to say that there is a lot of things that we agree on. It just happens that the thing that we don't agree on seems to be relatively large. But, again, I just want to thank you all for your testimony. Thanks for meeting. I look forward to continuing to work with you. And I haven't forgotten the plumbers issue with respect to the Advisory Council, because I do agree, it would have been a lot easier to have this dialogue, because maybe the layperson, which is me, wouldn't have been in the particular 147 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 equation, because I could have been depending on that Advisory Council. So I'm prepared to continue to work with you on that.
Madam Chairperson, may I ask Councilman Clarke a question?
That's not usually the way we do it here. I don't know. That's up to Councilman Clarke.
Well, I have an observation. May I make an observation?
Yes, 148 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 please.
Thank you. Councilman, you say you want the people to have the right and the ability to make that choice. My question to you is, without the proper education and the proper knowledge of the product, how would the average person be able to make an informed choice or decision? Don't you think it's the responsibility of City Council, the Administration and this professional community to protect them people that don't have the training and education that we do? (Applause.)
See, this is why we don't normally allow you all to ask questions. No, I don't have a problem with responding and I don't have a problem --
I have to acknowledge that Councilman Clarke was being gracious in allowing --
That will 149 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 be the last question, sir. You know, I think -- well, first of all, the development community is keenly aware -- I mean, they understand this business obviously more than me and as much as you guys, and if you're talking about the everyday average citizen, then I have no problem with ensuring that there's an educational process. My understanding as it relates to -- because I asked about laterals and this whole underground issue, is that the Code currently is silent on that issue. So it doesn't necessarily say you can't use it or you can use it. And having been a person that just had to have a lateral installed, because I had somebody sold me a house that had a lead lateral in there and the thing broke and I had to it get replaced, now the plumber comes out, did a good job, but he told me he had to put cast iron in there, but my understanding based on the silent 150 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 language, that person could have put PVC in there if they opted.
I asked that question as recent as yesterday from the Water Department, and that's what I got. That's what I'm saying, in the educational thing, I'm like, could I or can't I? People are saying, We're not sure. It doesn't say.
Let me say, what they did, they say traditionally when it's silent in the Philadelphia Code, the plumbers or any other trade -- I don't want to talk about just the plumbers -- will opt to adopt their own code. So the Plumbing Code says you put cast iron, but the Philadelphia Code says nothing about that issue. And that's what I'm saying, there's some uncertainty 151 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 in all of this. I'm just telling you what I was told by the City, because I asked that question.
I apologize, but I'm still unclear as to what you're asking us.
I wasn't asking you anything. I was just making -- you asked the question.
We have another panel. With all due respect to the author of the bill, the Public Safety Committee has a session scheduled at 3 o'clock. So for those of you who have come in, the Committee on Public Safety 152 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 will be meeting soon after we recess. I want to recognize Councilman Kelly, who had a point.
Right. Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll make this very, very quick. I know we're in constraints with time. I just have a question about -- you mentioned, Mr. Krzyzanowski -- is that correct?
In your testimony you mentioned something about durability. Could you give me a comparison of the durability between PVC and cast iron, for instance? How durable is it?
Well, the durability versus PVC versus cast iron as a specific example, when it is to be buried in an underground excavation, PVC installed as per manufacturer specification, the excavation has to be 153 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 over-dug by one foot and it has to be -- there has to be an encapsulation process of special specific fill one foot below the PVC piping and one foot above the PVC piping before the original ditch spoils can be placed back into the hole. Now, that increases the cost by threefold by the carting cost to remove the spoils for the excavation, by purchasing the clean fill spoil -- or the clean fill to put back around it, and that's simply --
Well, my question is, how long before you have to replace this PVC?
Excuse me, Councilman. The service life on a cast iron pipe most of the time will outdo a building that it's actually in. From my understanding, that the crush factor on cast iron pipe is three times to 1,000 times -- I'm sorry; 300 to 1,000 times stronger than PVC pipe.
That was the main 154 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 reason when we were talking about the underground piping in a trench, we wanted to make sure that it was on a bed of modified and it also had at least one foot of sand surrounding it to give it that compaction.
Okay. You answered my question. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Mr. Kane.
Thank you. Mr. Kane, the amendment that was recently circulated by Councilman Clarke, does that address some of the concerns that you specified in your testimony?
The concerns that I have is height restriction. When I've sat down and we've talked about height, the Committee and myself, fortunately or unfortunately, were unable to come up with a height. We decided four stories was reasonable. Most of the houses in 155 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 the City of Philadelphia that has four stories is a loft or an attic, and we felt as though that a person that's in a fire could get out running down steps. When you go up to expanding it to possibility five stories, six stories or above, now we're talking -- we're taking into consideration elevators. That's a concern for us at that point, because an individual may end up dying by the time they get down there because of the fire hazard.
Okay. Thank you. I want to recognize Councilman Green.
I just want to make sure I understand where you are, and, that is, up to four stories in height with up to ten dwelling units?
That was the compromise that we brought back to Councilman Clarke, yes.
What's the 156 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 difference between where you currently are and --
We expanded it one story, from three stories to four stories, from one to four-family dwellings to one to ten-family dwellings. We also allowed the underground PVC to be installed as long as you use, I think it's, the ASTM 2321 installation and thermal expansion also.
Do you have any evidence on the cost to homeowners of how often plumbing breaks, if it costs more over the life of the home because you're using an inferior product versus the going cost, which makes it for -- slightly less to buy a property but costs more to maintain, sort of like putting in a cheap air conditioning unit or an expensive air conditioning unit? Is there any evidence or criteria that it pays for itself over time?
Councilman, that basically works in concert with the 157 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 method of installation. If the method of installation is done correctly, the longevity will be greater with either material that you use.
Please tell me the name of this committee again. I can't resist this opportunity here.
I cannot resist this opportunity. I will ask you and Pat Gillespie, if you could, to please find a way to put the recruitment, orientation and training of women on that committee so that we could see some gender mix in these hearings going forward with your union. It's a joke. Thank you very much. 158 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953
Thank you. We have another panel that includes Jim McStravick, Greg Simmons, Tim Brink -- MR. McSTRAVICK: Excuse me. There's still two people on this panel who haven't testified.
All right. Jim McStravick, Greg Simmons, Tim Brink, Bice LeVan and Sean Cleary. So thank you to the panel. If we can move on to the other panel again. If you have written testimony, we can submit it into for the record. If you can summarize it, we'll greatly appreciate it. The Committee on Public Safety is waiting for their session. MR. McSTRAVICK: Good afternoon. Thank you for allowing me to present this testimony to you. My name is James McStravick, plumbing contractor 159 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 for the last years. I'm only going to be focusing on --
Excuse 6 me. 7 If folks could quiet down. 8 Thank you. 9 MR. McSTRAVICK: Just so you 10 understand, I'm only going to be focusing 11 on PEX water lines, and what PEX water 12 lines are are your water distribution 13 systems that are being installed. In 14 this green book, please follow along with 15 me, and I'm going to try -- I did 16 extensive research and I'm going to drop 17 a bomb on the PEX industry today that 18 they know is coming. 19 Table -- and every plumber in 20 this room will know that every material 21 leaches, and I have documentation on 22 that. 23 Tab 1 -- and I'm not going to 24 go through this. It's PEX information 25 and what PEX is. You can read that at 160 1 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 your leisure. Tab 2, materials used for water distribution systems contributing to taste and odor. This report was done by Oakland University in Rochester. " If you flip the page and you go to polyethylene HTPE, PEX, there is a list of 30 components that leach. I underlined Bisphenol A, and from here on, it will be called BPA. " That is another leaching effect of PEX. If you go to the next green tab from Plumbing Contractor, the second page, "In contrast, HTPE consumes low amounts of residual disinfectant and released only one point milliliter of organic compound. " The next green tab. And I'm going to page through here. It should be page -- the last page of the report. "When looking into the house installation, the picture will be quite 162 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 different from the main pipes in regard to the leakage of VOCs from pipe material given water, taste and odor and also with regard to the growth due to the VOCs. " All this information I'm giving you is current as of '08 and into '09. The next tab, January 31, 2008. " I'm not going to try to repeat myself. I want to keep going. I did extensive research on this. 163 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 The next report, Chemical Accident Reconstruction Service, I actually spoke to this gentleman yesterday. "My company was hired to investigate the organic impurities that were appearing in newly constructed custom homes valued at one-half million dollars and up. D. in physical chemistry. He again found MTBE. This letter is addressed to NSF and he's asking NSF for answers. "This corresponds to about 100 parts per billion of chemical per a 24-hour period. I reviewed NSF 61 and understand that MTBE is not even considered in NSF 61. " The next page, "I also believe that new homes plumbed with PEX should automatically be equipped with a drinking water purification system as part of the PEX plumbing in the house. " Again, he is repeating that MTBE leaches. "
Can we quickly summarize? I hate to be rude. I know you did a lot of work. We have the materials, but please -- MR. McSTRAVICK: I'm almost there.
Point of information. Is PEX piping part of the proposal by Councilman Clarke? MR. McSTRAVICK: Yes.
Is that the same -- PVC and PEX are interchangeable? MR. McSTRAVICK: PVC is for domestic water lines. The PVC and ABS 165 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 are drainage components. I'm getting to my point very quickly and then I'll summarize.
Thank you. MR. McSTRAVICK: Tab 3 is a question that I asked myself, and that's what made me make this book. A homeowner asked a question, Is cross-linked polyethylene but have yet to determine if BPA is used in the manufacturing of this material. Dr. Frederick Von Saal answers, "Additives to plastic are not reported, and, in fact, in the U.S., this information is protected by confidentiality legislation." We need laws to prevent people from this -- "we need laws to provide people with this information." BPA is a leaching effect in PEX. NSF, who tests the material, on their website -- and it's in the front page of your book on Section 2 and Plumbing Engineering, they are no longer 166 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 looking for BPA.
I have another point of information. I'm reading the bill. It says ABS and PVC plastic may be used for the following, to the full extent permitted by the International Plumbing Code. It doesn't talk about PEX. MR. McSTRAVICK: It talks about water lines, water distribution systems.
Yeah, but you could only use ABS or PVC. MR. McSTRAVICK: You don't use ABS or PVC for domestic water. You use --
This bill 18 appears only to speak to the use of ABS or PVC, though. That's what's confusing me. In other words, I am not sure your testimony is relevant. MR. McSTRAVICK: The bill that I have says "and domestic water lines."
Can we ask the bill sponsor for clarification, 167 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 or someone from L&I?
I don't see it there. If it's there, even though I don't see it, I will take it out. I mean, that's not the intent of the bill, to deal with PEX. I don't see it in the bill, but if you say it's there, show me where it is. I don't have a problem. As you know, I've been -- I mean, we've had this cooperative dialogue throughout this process. So I think I've shown the willingness to be flexible. So if you show me where there's an issue, beyond the numbers, because the numbers are where we are, which is the issue, because with respect to health and safety, I think the facts are what they are, but the numbers issues, that's something that we have to talk about. You don't have to go through the entire document. Just afterwards you could just show me where that's at.
Can you give us some closing statements to wrap 168 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 up, because you did do a lot of work and we do appreciate it. MR. McSTRAVICK: I don't need the closing arguments if he's going to not have domestic water lines in the system. If that's going to be removed from the bill, I have no problem with this.
My name is Sean Cleary. I'm a licensed master plumber and I'm a field representative for the International Association of Plumbing and Mechanical Officials. I'm also a past international President of the American Society of Sanitary Engineers. I would like to thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today concerning this important subject. 169 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 Decisions made by this Council will have a far-reaching impact on the health, safety and quality of life of not only the residents of this city, but also of visitors to Philadelphia and the individuals involved in the construction and maintenance of residential and commercial buildings throughout this great city. With the current economic situation in the City of Philadelphia and, in truth, across the State of Pennsylvania and the nation, it makes sense to look for ways to cut costs and find savings anywhere possible. That being said, the answers to these fiscal problems will not be corrected by weakening the Philadelphia Plumbing Code and construction standards or by reducing the number of City plumbing inspectors far below the number required to perform these vital city services. The current City of 170 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 Philadelphia Plumbing Code is a unique document, written to serve the needs of a unique city. It has stood the test of time and, with updates, will continue to protect the health and safety of the people within its jurisdiction. As the largest city in Philadelphia, Philadelphia has many challenges not faced by smaller municipalities throughout the state. Buildings are taller, population centers more dense, systems more complex and public services, including fire protection, mass transit, along with maintaining the municipal water and sewer systems, more critical. The idea has been floated that perhaps it is time to do away with the Philadelphia Plumbing Code. People have said that the City should adopt a model code that is referenced in Act 45, the State Uniform Construction Code. When the State Assembly passed Act 45, they widely recognized that it was not a 171 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 one-size-fit-all situation. That is why they excluded both Philadelphia and Allegheny County from the mandate. In truth, the Assembly wrote into the legislation wording which allows municipalities that had amendments already enacted in their jurisdictions to maintain them to address special circumstances and concerns. Many areas throughout the state, including Scranton, Erie, Harrisburg and Wilkes-Barre, have in place specific requirements and amendments to the model codes. The argument that Philadelphia is the only area in the State of Pennsylvania not enforcing the same requirements is false and is being spread by people who are either uninformed or trying to mislead the public. A number of news articles have been written, leaving readers with the impression that if the City allowed the Code to be changed to permit the installation of PVC pipe on a larger 172 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 scale, it would vastly reduce the cost of both housing and commercial building in the City and spur development almost overnight. The savings in both labor and materials would allow construction costs to be greatly reduced. Anyone with a working knowledge of construction materials and proper installation practices knows the truth is a little more complicated than the per-foot price of the material. As a person with over 30 years experience in the plumbing industry working on projects from single-family housing to prisons and power plants, I can tell you that material cost is only a small part of the overall construction budget. When looking at piping materials, a number of factors need to be considered. Also, another important consideration is the health and safety of both the installers and the end users.
Material price should never be the 173 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 primary consideration when deciding on the suitability of a project or system within a building project. When you look at piping materials, there are many factors to be considered, and each project has -- each product has special requirements and limitations that must be evaluated. Considerations include things like noise, installation value, hanger requirements, proper fire-stopping and material expansion. When these factors are considered in many cases, it becomes less expensive to install cast iron pipe when compared to the installation cost of PVC pipe. Another concern is for the trade people doing the installation. When you add the safety concerns that arise when PVC pipe is not correctly installed or workers are not given the proper training or the required personal protection equipment, including special gloves to protect their skin from the 174 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 chemicals required to join the material, it is easy to see that this is not a black and white issue. Another concern with regards to worker safety is the proper ventilation of the work spaces due to the toxic nature of the solvents used to join this material. If you look at the MSDS sheets for these products, you will see that they are listed as possible causes for a number of health problems if inhaled or absorbed through the skin. These are important factors to consider when looking at the overall installation cost of these piping systems. Another popular myth is that PVC can be installed much faster than cast iron pipe. I know from firsthand experience that a skilled worker using the proper installation methods for both of these materials will find almost no 23 difference in the labor required to complete -- and this is the key word -- a quality installation. Each of these 175 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 materials has a place within the industry. Each has advantages and disadvantages which must be considered in a realistic manner on its own merit, with the most important factor being the health, safety and quality of life of the people living and working within the City. Making large changes to the Philadelphia Plumbing Code without careful consideration by industry people familiar with the City of Philadelphia and its special needs and concerns is a mistake. As someone who has met with the City's Plumbing Advisory Board in the past to talk about Code issues, I would urge you to ask the Mayor to reconsider his decision to dissolve the Advisory Board and refrain from any Code changes until a process is in place to review any updates. I'd like to thank you for listening to me. And the only other thing I'd like to touch on is the 176 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 economic factor of this should take a back seat to the quality of life, and I think for knowledgeable people, such as the plumbers of 690 or professional plumbers, they may be looked at as a special interest here, but they're the people who spend the most time working with the material and I think they have the most knowledge. And I think it's an enormous mistake to make massive Code changes based on what developers say or -- I mean, I heard talk about parking spaces here, that we eliminate parking spaces, we'll drive down the cost of housing and things like that. It gets crazy. Code changes are incredibly important and they're long-reaching. Once you allow a material in, it's in, and those homes last for 30, 40, 50, 60 years and it's something to really think about. So I would ask the Council to refrain from making any changes to the Philadelphia Plumbing Code in this manner, because I think it's an enormous 177 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 mistake. )
Thank you. Of the witnesses left, does anybody have written testimony? We'll read it in. If people could please summarize. If not, I'm just going to have to take it, because we do have a Public Safety meeting. If you have written testimony, can you just please quickly summarize.
Madam Chairman, thank you for having us here today. My name is Tim Brink. I'm the Executive Vice-President of the Mechanical Contractors and Servicing Contractors Associations of Eastern Pennsylvania and Greater Delaware Valley. Prior to this position, I was a licensed contractor in three states, in California, Nevada and Texas, in the plumbing and mechanical field. The 85 contractors that I 178 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 represent advocate a responsible method of adopting and modifying the Philadelphia Plumbing Code, "responsible" meaning a combination of educated consumers, plumbing officials, government officials, a whole mixture of the community that used to be present in the Plumbing Advisory Board to review these issues and come up with an educated decision. Adopting the widespread use of PVC in unlimited height applications needs to have a concerted, close look taken at it. You need educated people from all sides of the industry to deal with flame and smoke ratings, to deal with the evacuation processes of the buildings where although a high-rise apartment or condo, you have individually owned units or individual occupancies, but the evacuation routes and the common area are public spaces; therefore, it's a commercial building. Most of my testimony was 179 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 contained in John Kane's, Sean Cleary, Walt Krzyzanowski's testimony. You have it. I'll end it there. We are in favor of a responsible way of adopting the codes. Thank you.
Thank you for testifying. (Applause.) MR. LeVAN: My name is Bill 12 LeVan. I'm Executive Vice-President of the Cast Iron Soil Pipe Institute. Our association members are made up of the three U.S. manufacturers of cast iron soil piping fittings used in this marketplace. The association has been around for 60 years. I've been in the industry for 40. The piping that this building I looked at while I was waiting to come into the Council Chambers was produced prior to our becoming an association, so the pipe is over 60 years old. It testifies to the durability of the 180 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 product. Cast iron is made from today 100 percent recycled ferrous materials. We use in excess of 250,000 to 300,000 automobiles per year, scrap automobiles, as an equivalent to what we melt to produce the products used here. Our members manufacture and sell the Philadelphia single-stack system. It's readily available. It's stocked in Macungie, Pennsylvania, the site of one of our founders that unfortunately burned, but it still is the largest inventory in the eastern United States in this market, except for Charlotte, North Carolina, where we have a manufacturing plant. The product expands and contracts at the same rate as concrete and steel. It does not require expansion joints. It does not burn. It is a non-combustible material. It has a variety of things that make it a valued product. Although it is probably more 181 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 expensive as far as initial cost of the product, I'm confident that the install cost of the product is comparable to PVC, if not less. Thank you very much for your time. (Applause.)
Well, unless I'm badly mistaken, I'm the last guy standing, so I'll be very brief and skip to . My name is Greg Simmons. I'm the Vice-President and Technical Director of Charlotte Piping Foundry in Charlotte, North Carolina. I'm here to testify to you today just for one main reason. We have a very unique perspective on this issue. We happen to be a very large manufacturer of cast iron soil pipe and also a very large manufacturer of PVC drain waste and vent piping. Our foundry was initially built 107 years ago and it 182 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 still stands in essentially downtown Charlotte. In 1967, we began making PVC drain waste and vent piping also. To this day, the majority of our income comes from PVC drain waste and vent piping. We have 1,400 associates working for us. We like PVC. It's a very valid plumbing system when used correctly. I'm here to tell you today that your existing Plumbing Code strikes a good compromise between good use of PVC and cast iron soil pipe. There's room 16 for some minor adjustments. We would think that you could reach some compromises. But both systems are good, so I'm not here to beat up on either system today. I don't think it's an either/or question that's facing you. I feel like you have very good appropriate measures that you can take to satisfy all parties. By the way, both Bill and 183 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 myself are talking regarding drain waste and vent systems. There's been a lot of crossover today and an awful lot of situations I haven't understood as far as different products and different uses. We're talking drain waste and vent, not potable water. So the comparison that we're talking about or that I'm talking about is cast iron soil pipe essentially versus PVC drain waste and vent products. So with that said, the one issue I would like to hit a little bit is the environmental aspects of cast iron soil pipe. We feel very strongly that cast iron soil pipe is the environmental choice. We produce in our plant. We recycle in excess of 300 million pounds of ferrous scrap material in a year. Every pound of every piece of cast iron soil pipe comes from recycled material. I can tell you not one pound of PVC material is from post-consumer PVC. Every bit of it, by code and by standard, is virgin material, and so if for no 184 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 other reason than the recyclability of cast iron, we feel like that's a very strong environmental emphasis for the cast iron soil pipe. When this building is hopefully never torn down, but when a building is built using cast iron soil pipe and at the end of its 50 to 100-year life cycle, every pound of that cast iron has value. Every pound of it can go back to a foundry and be used to make I beams or soil pipe or plate for and sheet for appliances. Every single pound of it will have value. None of it will go into waste disposal facilities. Thank you so much for taking time to listen to us today. We appreciate it. (Applause.)
With that, this concludes our public hearing. 185 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953
I was just going to recess the hearing and go to the meeting. Is this part of the hearing?
I just wanted to say for the record that we have to get building again. We have to get people back to work, and we all need to consider that anything that lowers the cost of building will put people to work. We have to approach this rationally and thoughtfully, and it is my sincere hope that in the coming weeks, Councilman Clarke and the Chairwoman and the people here testifying today can work out a compromise that satisfies everybody. 186 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 It's my understanding that no bill will be moving today; is that correct, Madam Chair?
I didn't say that yet, but I guess the Councilman has information that I don't have. No. With respect to -- first, Councilwoman, I just want to thank you and the Committee for hosting this hearing. I know it's been a long and difficult hearing, and I appreciate the fact that you all have given your time and effort to talk about this very much controversial issue. There's a reason why this issue has been out there as long as it has, because it's difficult, and I understand that. The purpose of me calling the hearing is based on the conversations 187 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 that I thought we were moving towards the path of some sort of an agreement. At the eleventh hour -- and I understood there wouldn't be an agreement -- I felt it was still appropriate to have the hearing, because all of the information needed to be out on the table. Beyond just myself as the sponsor of the bill, all members should hear the information on both sides of the equation, and I think it's been beneficial to everyone. I know it has been to me. With that, what I would like to do -- and I want to thank you all for giving me the amendment, because I did need -- I did commit to taking commercial out, and I appreciate you giving me the amendment to take the commercial out, because I do believe that I'm a person of my word. If I say I'm going to do something, I'm going to do it. And so, therefore, I would like to ask at this time that we hold the bill in committee, with the understanding that we will 188 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 continue the discussion. Because as far as I'm concerned, we have come a long way on this issue, an issue that, frankly speaking, nobody wanted to touch for a lot of different reasons. And from my perspective -- and hopefully the Committee members now, since you all are in the mix, will be a part of that further discussion as it relates to getting to the appropriate number, because it is a numbers issue, making sure that all of these safety issues on both sides of the equation at some point get consolidated to the truth, because there's always this side and there's that side, then there's always a side in the middle that's the facts, because we do need to make sure that we're right on that particular issue. In addition to which the issue with respect to the Plumbing Advisory Council, I know something was brought up during the course of discussions and I've indicated a willingness to work on that. 189 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 I understand, Councilwoman Brown, you have also and hopefully other members, if that's a part of the equation -- and I understand there are actually some other issues with respect to the Code that can be beneficial to the plumbing building trade. I'm prepared to work on that to make sure that it ensures that they have -- it creates a better environment for them, the Plumbing Union itself or plumbers, not saying union. So I want to ask that we hold it, but with the understanding that there has to be more dialogue, because this is an important issue. The fact that the people that I've been working with have indicated a willingness to talk about some expansion of the use of PVC shows that we need to do something, we need to modernize this Code. I'm prepared to ask you all to hold this today so we can further the discussion.
Thank you, Councilman Clarke. I want to take 190 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 this opportunity to really thank you for bringing the issue to us and, more importantly, for your willingness and continued willingness to work with the stakeholders who make up the industry and the folks impacted by the policy decisions that we make. And I want to thank the stakeholders for coming out today and expressing their concerns and, at the same time, their continued willingness to work with us as we try to juggle what is a cost issue but also a public safety issue. As Chair of L&I, L&I is a public safety entity, and we rely on its expertise and its relationships with our stakeholders to come forth with policies that never, never put in jeopardy or in harm people, the people that we are elected to represent. So with that, I am going to be aggressive in ensuring that those follow-up meetings happen and that we 191 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 move this in a timely fashion. I think that despite the opposition, I think we're much, much closer than has been viewed here today. I think we're very close. And so I want thank you for the leadership in that and thank the union and Mr. Kane. I look forward to being able to come back to this Committee with something that takes into account those two matters. Did you have something else?
I just want to say one other thing I just didn't want to omit. I just want to also thank the housing advocates for coming down and continuing to press for affordability as relates to housing. I want to thank the development community for coming and bringing their level of expertise to the table. This can never get resolved unless everybody is working together, and I clearly understand that. So, again, thank you.
And 192 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 clearly this has been a demonstration of, folks, democracy, as I say, democracy at work, people talking about it in a public forum, us being informed, appropriately informed, by all the sectors to try to make solid policy decisions. So with that, we're going to conclude the public hearing and enter into the public meeting.
I'm holding the bill, but we're going to recess -- I do have to go into a public meeting because I have one bill that does need to get voted out.
I just want to make sure we hold the bill in committee.
So officially we are going to be holding 193 3/18/09 - L&I - BILLS 080650 and 080953 Bill 080953 to the call of the Chair, and then I'm going to move into the public meeting and I am going to ask my Vice-Chairwoman for a motion.
Thank you, Madam Chairman. I move that Bill 8 080650 be reported out of this Committee with a suspension of rules as to permit first reading at the next session of Council. (Duly seconded.)
So Bill 17 080650 will be voted out of Committee with a favorable recommendation, with a suspension of rules to allow first reading at our first public meeting. Thank you all for coming and your patience. (Committee on Licenses and Inspections concluded at 4:10 p.m.) - - - 194 CERTIFICATE I HEREBY CERTIFY that the proceedings, evidence and objections are contained fully and accurately in the stenographic notes taken by me upon the foregoing matter on March 18, 2009, and that this is a true and correct transcript of same. ______________________________ MICHELE L. MURPHY RPR-Notary Public (The foregoing certification of this transcript does not apply to any reproduction of the same by any means, unless under the direct control and/or supervision of the certifying reporter.)