that two renters, right? It was Clarence and one tenant. Oh, okay. All right. Clarence,
the owner, and one tenant. Okay. Since the mid-80s, according to this witness.
And you're saying that since 2012, when Walter passed away, that tenant, it was just Clarence.
Yes. To switch gears a little bit, do you remember any
that Clarence at 3411 Bering had any problem ever with any significant problem with the plumbing?
There was an incident where the sewer line to the street broke and it was, you can't have that
replaced. Okay. And by himself? No, somebody came in and fixed it. As we've talked about earlier in
this hearing there came a time in 2025 when the subject property was put up for sale you're aware
of that yes okay thank you well maybe we need another microphone all right i i think you just
push it towards them that's all it'll be it'll be fine did you have occasion to interact with
any of clarence's family members around that time yes his niece was um wanted him to uh relocate him
and to live with them her and her partner in florida and i had many contacts with her over
the it took about two years for the process to evolve before it was actually sold so i had many
much contact with her during that time. Okay. She was helping himself? Yes. She handled all the
sales and that kind of thing. Thank you. Did some of the topics that you discussed with her
involve zoning and the 1940 variants? Yes. We told her that, me and my wife and I, that
it was our understanding that
since he had just been living there by himself
that the underlying variance
would have lapsed.
Did you have any suggestion
about what she could do with the house?
Once it became known in the neighborhood
that the house was coming up for sale,
there were several people that got in contact
with the PBCA and myself about speaking to Clarence as to their family, two families
about purchasing the house. Do you know the asking price that was being asked at that time?
The asking price that his niece told me was going to be 675,000. Are you aware that any of the
families that looked at the property made any offers there were two offers both uh relatively
a hundred thousand dollars less than that did you ever speak to mr jaden chen the name of the
gentleman that ultimately brought ultimately purchased 34 11. uh yes my wife and i saw him
looking over the house one day and as we were prone to do we go out and tell people who
uh looked like his prospective buyers but although at the time i realized now that he
would actually purchased it that there was uh it could not be used for four minute uh rental um did
Did you have an understanding of whether Mr. Chen attempted to obtain a mortgage for the property?
yeah i told us uh that day that he um had been turned down by the bank for a loan
because they considered the house to be uh in in uh uninhabitable
Can I object to this? This is all hearsay, and I don't know why it's relevant.
can i object to this this is all hearsay and i don't know why it's relevant
Well, should Bonnie respond, please?
Sure. He's talking about a statement made by a party to the case. Mr. Chen will be testifying.
He can certainly say he didn't say it, or they can...
Why don't we continue? Then we'll get to the point when the cross comes.
Okay. Did you ever speak to the listing agent?
uh miss gina anderson uh yes um she enlisted my help to uh hold the key she gave me a key to the
the property so that if people came to wanted to come to look for it she'd let me know and i could
let them in to view the property did you ever speak to her about the zoning and the old variants
yes um thank you mr crawford do you have any closing thought that you want to convey to the
board just one briefly one item that came up in the previous hearing that that we were looking
for a certain type of person to live in palton and and live and we uh if that isn't true what
we really are looking for is a certain type of neighborhood and uh to make it uh family oriented
as possible and in fact the the city feels the same way because they they just they zone it
appropriately how they want a certain play uh parcels of the city to be used and so
our our aim is just to get the the property to fall back into the zoning underlying zoning
that the city applied to it.
Thank you very much.
Council, Pritzker, Rachel.
Thank you.
Mr. Crawford, you mentioned that you're a software engineer for a living.
Is that correct?
Do you have any expertise, certifications, education on non-conforming uses
or zoning and land use law?
So would you agree that you're not an expert?
in constitutional property rights or non-conforming uses no i am not um and you mentioned that uh you
were the next door neighbor um and you're aware that the property was uh put on the market for
sale yes so uh and am i correct to say that it was not a private sale it was not an inheritance
It was a public sale that anybody, including yourself, could have purchased?
I also gave some testimony about the maintenance that the prior owner had on the property.
Is there any testimony that you have that is relevant to the intent of him removing any improvements, removing walls, trying to make it two units, removing plumbing, removing meters?
or was your experience that is the best he could he maintained the property up until when he fell
ill at 90 some odd years old uh he did not try to make any changes to the property um he didn't
really maintain it that well but it's but there weren't you're not aware of there being overt acts
of him removing meters or trying to turn it into a two unit, anything that would have been obvious
to you as the neighbor, show his intent to abandon that use? No, that did not happen.
Thank you. I just, last thing I just wanted to, you know, make mention is that you made it clear
that um you your your goal is not to um i guess dictate who lives there but um you know with the
base zoning being rt1 you are aware that most of the properties on your block are three and four
families as well as they were what's called grandfathered in or legal existing non-conforming
uses meaning that before they were down zoned rt1 they had gotten legal approval for multiple units
is that your understanding that some of the properties on your blocks are yes uh but they
well yes okay um that's all my questions i appreciate mr kelly oh hold up
well when we bought our house in in uh 78 the difference between the neighborhood then
and the neighborhood now is that all the all the properties almost all the
properties on our block were owner-occupied so it wasn't it's a
it's a difference between that's a different than the trend that's been happening where outside
difference between but that's a different trend that's been happening
outside parties buy this just to make money but up until so to that point but up until
the uh prior owner who was in his 90s i mean you can only live so long uh was unable to
stay in his home due to uh old age and an illness and needing to be taken care of by his family it
was owner-occupied. And had he stayed in good health or been able to live to 100 or whatever,
however old we're all lucky to get to, it would have still been owner-occupied. So you're
sharing that your concern is that people have property rights and we can't dictate that it's
owner-occupied? I don't understand the question. I guess my question to you is one of your issues
with it was is that it's it might not no longer be owner occupied but up until but it was owner
occupied as a four unit up until um clarence had to move out of the property due to him being
elderly is that what you're stating objection i don't think there's any evidence that it was owner
occupied as four units well he just said that it was owner occupied by clarence and that there were
there was no intention or he didn't see any overt acts to you know downgrade it or remove walls or
anything like that yes uh and had it he lived to a hundred uh there would be we wouldn't even be
here so i don't understand that's my point exactly thank you thank you thank you mr kelly nothing
from the city next witness mr pony thank you mr crawford and uh my next witness is the gentleman
online who i believe is there now oh sure tony uh dominic please mr dominic
i am sorry council mr trust you don't see that individual in the virtual audience this morning
is he anthony dominic yes please okay okay here he is i'm sorry
please accept the invitation to be promoted to pen
Mr. Dominic
coming back in now
Mr. Dominic?
Mr. Dominic, could you please state your name and spell it for the stenographer?
Anthony Dominic, A-N-T-H-O-N-Y, D-O-M-I-N-I-C-K.
Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth?
Yes, sir.
Counsel, please proceed.
Thank you.
Mr. Dominic, good morning.
you were a neighbor of the subject property. Just by way of intro, can you tell us your
occupation and your age? I'm a computer consultant, 54 years old. Thank you. Okay,
let's get into it. Tell us where... Sorry, Mr. Dominic, can you just speak up just a little
bit more so the stenographer can hear you? Thank you. Yes, I'll repeat that for her or for that
person. I'm a computer consultant. I'm 54 years old. Thank you. Sir, please tell us where and when
you lived near 3411 Barron. Yes, I lived at 3407 Barron. That is, there's one house between 3411
and the house I lived at.
That was from 2001 to 2005, last year.
Did you know the owner, Clarence Wilson?
Yes, I knew Clarence.
Did you consider him?
I mean, how did you know him?
Well, we lived two doors down,
so I would see him when he was coming and going.
I found out later that he was working at the library
down at Penn,
and I worked at Drexel's library for three years.
so we kind of talked about those things and just general neighborhood stuff thank you um uh
uh so you're saying you moved onto the block in 2001 correct i bought that house with my
wife at that time yes okay and at that time um and moved there so yes to be clear thank you
Thank you. And at that time, who was living in Clarence's house?
So Clarence is what I saw and actually knew Walter Grant earlier before I really got the
So Clarence is who I saw and actually knew Walter Grant.
new Clarence. Walter was more of a social person. Clarence was more of a quiet person. So it was
easier to talk to Walter. Walter lived on that house at 3411 bearing on the second floor.
Okay. So you're saying at that time it was Clarence and one tenant by the name of Walter
grant correct okay and um when if at all did walter um uh leave the property
um i mean for working but eventually i think i'm gonna forget to the point that he he died
um yeah so yeah he died in 2012. okay so after walter grant the tenant died
So let me back up. So from 2001 to 2012, you're saying Clarence lived there with his tenant, Walter, and that after 2012, it was just Clarence. Is that correct?
Correct.
Clarence never had any other tenants after 2012?
no i had asked him if he was going to rent it out um and at the time he said that he didn't want to
be bothered with tenants anymore and he'd rather just live by himself he was a personal guy so i
didn't i figured he owned the property and could do whatever he want with it in 2012 how old was
clarence um so 2012 14 years ago he just turned 93 so uh 79. okay so at that time when walter died
um clarence was 79 years old yes was it your understanding that he didn't want to rent the
property out because of his age um i didn't ask him that specifically uh but he gave me the general
impression that he just didn't want to be bothered with tenants anymore okay uh uh i'm also just
gonna object for the record because again it's hearsay and clarence isn't here to say if he
said or didn't say any of this well in in your opinion mr what do you respond what do you agree
with her well she just i i agree paul knows the rules i mean he i guess the chairman is asking me
I'm going to ask her, what's his position on what you just said?
Yes, it's not admissible for this witness to say what somebody else who's not here said.
So I agree with that.
Okay, thank you.
Proceed.
Did you consider, from your observations and interactions,
with Clarence, who was 79 at that time.
Did you consider him old and infirm?
Old, yes.
I mean, older than me because I'm 50.
Infirm, no.
Okay, thank you.
Can you tell us generally the condition?
You were inside the house?
Yes, I've been inside the house.
Can you tell us generally the condition of the interior of the house in, let's say, early
in early 2025?
In early 2025?
Yeah, sure.
The house was sold in the spring of 2025.
So, yes.
Yes, I've been in the house before then.
So, that's why.
Yeah, so in a general sense, it looked like not a lot of work was being done on the insides.
it's what I would consider deferred maintenance.
I'm not sure if that's an appropriate term,
but it looked like maintenance hadn't been done in a while.
There were some sections of the ceiling
that were collapsing in two of the units that I remember.