-- the interest rate ceilings that we had on credit cards. And a lot of the banks --
-- fled to Delaware because they could charge more. Had 76 Whole & Fiscal Stability Hearing - 5/24/04 nothing to do with the tax structure here. It was where they could make more money.
I'm sure they probably weren't thrilled about the overall tax structure here. But, okay. I'm just trying to understand. I mean, you talked about empirical evidence.
Well, the empirical -- the empirical evidence I see, I mean from where I go around, I see, you know, a lot of activity going on in this City. I see a lot of -- I just read statistics the other day from our L & I from construction permits. They're up 411 percent.
Our construction 77 Whole & Fiscal Stability Hearing - 5/24/04 permits.
I think this City -- this City is coming alive. It's not to say we can't do more.
But when I look at the empirical evidence of -- of -- of building permits that were issued in 2003 versus what it was, I think, in 1999 or 1998, they've gone up significantly.
So that's some of the evidence I see in just walking around and seeing what's going on.
Right. But population wouldn't be one of those empirical --
I think population is -- I think population is -- is -- is -- is one of the factors. I always get a kick 78 Whole & Fiscal Stability Hearing - 5/24/04 out of it when people say, compare us to Phoenix and Houston, and so forth. If we want to annex Bala Cynwyd or Lower Merion, we'd just be right where Phoenix and Houston are. And that's the way a lot of cities have grown. And most of the cities in the Northeast are losing population.
I don't think we had them and let them go to lose population. We used to have a couple million that were are still within the same boundaries that the City has probably had, I don't know, for a little while. So, I mean, it's not like we shed townships or hamlets. We've had the same boundaries. People left. Right?
All right. And they go, and they come, and they go. And the net is, they go. Right? VOICE IN THE AUDIENCE: Where are we 79 Whole & Fiscal Stability Hearing - 5/24/04 going? COUNCILMAN NUTTER (singing): Where do we go from here? I'm done. Thank you.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman DiCicco. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you, Madam President. I actually had some of the same questions that my colleague, Councilman Nutter, had about the empirical evidence. I mean, you're right, Mr. Goldsmith. No one has -- can predict what will happen if any of these bills or all of these tax package bills pass. But the evidence is there, obviously that we continue to lose population. We continue to have business disinvestment. And with that goes loss of jobs. I've asked this question, and I've made comments about this over the last couple weeks. If not now, when? 80 Whole & Fiscal Stability Hearing - 5/24/04 The five-year plan calls for reductions going forward over the next five years. Because we're losing jobs, we're losing revenue. So, the likelihood is that cuts will have to be made going forward. None of us like to see that. So the question again becomes, if not now, then when? We can't -- We're going to hold off until the economy is well and the City is thriving, and then start looking to make cuts? That day may never come either. And none of us can predict that. So again, as I said in the past, I think that we just need to look to do something dramatic. Hopefully it works out. And it is a hope. And I'll be the first to admit that. And if things don't turn out the way we expected them to do, to turn out, we can always adjust and mend, make some corrections to the tax bills that we have before us that we're hopefully going to 81 Whole & Fiscal Stability Hearing - 5/24/04 vote and pass. I just don't see any way out of this, other than to try something very dramatic. And again, I'll be the first to say that there is no empirical evidence that will happen. But it's interesting, when you just talked about the number of permits that have been pulled over the last four or five years. I assume, therefore, construction and residential development, multi-family, single family, stuff like that.
Yes. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Did anyone stop to think that maybe that's occurring because of the ten-year abatement?
That may be. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: And the point I'm trying to make is, but for the abasement which was basically a tax reduction, credit, call it what you want, we may not have seen the number of permits that have been pulled over the last four or 82 Whole & Fiscal Stability Hearing - 5/24/04 five years.
That's -- COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: So in a sense -- And I'm not being argumentative with you...
That's all right. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: ...that to me is some empirical evidence that when you offer incentives and you reduce taxation on individuals or businesses, you generally -- And again, it's all hypothetical. Generally you get a reinvestment that offsets the cost of those -- of doing the business or offset the cost of whatever the losses were, in terms of revenue. So, I think what we've all been doing here is -- most of us, at least, have been looking at the negative side of this. No one has talked about -- And again, it's the guesswork, it's the hope, that if we do these bills, that maybe there's an uptick in the job growth and business growth in the City which translates into additional revenues. 83 Whole & Fiscal Stability Hearing - 5/24/04 And again, I don't have that answer. None of us have the answer on either side of this, except for the historical statistics that for the last three, four decades, all we continue to lose is jobs, and it's all because of the antiquated tax system that we have, which has been discussed not only in this Council for as long as I can remember, and before I came here, and God knows how long. But it's recognized across this country as a bad place to do business. And you know, I'm not asking for an answer from you. It's a statement, a comment. But the empirical evidence is that to continue on the path we've been, the job loss will continue. And so my answer to you is, give me the empirical evidence is anyone going to prove that we're going to grow. Well, I can't do that, but I can certainly tell you that if we don't do something, we're going to continue to lose. Thank you. 84 Whole & Fiscal Stability Hearing - 5/24/04 Thank you, Madam President.
Thank you. There are any other questions or comments of our witnesses? (No response.)
Seeing none, are there any other witnesses to testify? (No response.)
This will conclude our public hearing. (Public hearing concluded, 12:45 p.m.) 85 CERTIFICATE I HEREBY CERTIFY that the proceedings and evidence are contained fully and accurately in the stenographic notes taken by me upon the public hearing of The Philadelphia City Council, taken on May 24, 2004, and that this is a true and correct transcript of same. _____________________________ 12 CYNTHIA A. WHYTE _____________________________ DAVID A. DEIK, RPR and Commissioner of Deeds (The foregoing certification of this transcript does not apply to any reproduction of the same by any means, unless under the direct control and/or supervision of the certifying reporter.)