Committee on Law and Government, February 9, 2026

COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA COMMITTEE ON LAW AND GOVERNMENT Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Monday, February 9, 2026 1:45 p.m. PRESENT: COUNCILWOMAN KATHERINE GILMORE RICHARDSON, CHAIR COUNCILWOMAN KENDRA BROOKS, VICE-CHAIR COUNCILWOMAN RUE LANDAU

251098 RESOLUTIONS: 251108, 260029 - - -

Good afternoon. I now know that the hour has come to begin today's hearing. First, thank you all very much for your patience. Clerk, will you please call the roll to take attendance. Members that are in attendance will please indicate that you are present when your name is called.

Councilmember Bass. (No response.)

Councilmember O'Neill. (No response.)

Councilmember Squilla. (No response.)

Councilmember Phillips.

Present.

Councilmember Landau.

Present.

Vice-Chair Brooks.

Present.

Chair Gilmore Richardson.

I am present. Thank you. A quorum of this committee is now called to order. I also note the presence of our colleague Councilmember Jamie Gauthier, who's the sponsor of additional legislation in this committee. So a quorum of the committee is present and the hearing is now called to order. This is the public meeting of the Committee on Law and Government regarding Resolution Nos. 260026 and 251108 as well as Bill No. 3 251098. Clerk, will you please read the titles of the bill and the resolutions.

Resolution 8 No. 260029, a resolution 9 authorizing the Committee on Law and Government to hold a hearing on the process to resolve a tangled title in the City of Philadelphia. Resolution No. 251108, a resolution proposing an amendment to the Philadelphia Home Rule Charter, providing for the creation of the Office of the Youth Ombudsperson and providing for the submission of the proposed amendment to the electors of Philadelphia. Bill No. 251098, an ordinance providing for the submission to the qualified electors of the City of Philadelphia, of the proposal set forth in resolution approved by Council, proposing an amendment to the Philadelphia Home Rule Charter relating to the creation of the Office of the Youth Ombudsperson, and authorizing and directing the appropriate officers to publish notice and to make arrangements for the special election.

Thank you. Thank you very much. Clerk, will you please call the first panel we have to testify on Resolution No. 2600 -- pardon me. Thank you. Thank you very much. Clerk, will you please call the first panel we have to testify on Resolution No. 260029.

The Honorable John Sabatina. Also available for questions, Myasia Williams. (Witnesses approached witness table.)

Thank you. As they approach the witness table, I again want to thank everyone for being here this afternoon and thank you so much for your patience. As you all know, this is an issue that continues to be near and dear to my heart, tangled titles. It's an issue that personally we've experienced in my family and we've helped many constituents with over the years. And I will tell you that we've learned just how time-consuming, how expensive and frustrating this process can be as families try to hold on to their family homes and ultimately to their generational wealth. And having a tangled title increases the risk for deed fraud, it prevents the family or individual's ability to purchase a home insurance and it also disqualifies owners from assistance programs that may be offered via the City of Philadelphia, including tax relief, home repair grants and utility support. But most of all, it is a massive barrier for many Philadelphians just trying to hold on to their family homes and keep their generational wealth. And we know that. 1 billion worth of property here in our city. And we also know that a large majority of those tangled titles are really centered in communities with higher Black and Brown populations. The number one district, being our colleague Councilmember Jamie Gauthier in the 3rd Council District, but also the 4th, where we reside, represented by Councilmember Curtis Jones. And so, we've made significant progress with the help of so many of the partners who are here today. I'm very encouraged by your presence and by your continued work and collaboration and partnership to help these families. And we can document now that more than 2769 tangled title cases have been resolved between 2022 and 2024, and that's according to Philly Stat 360. So 2769 tangled title cases have come to resolution as a result of the ongoing work and collaboration over the last several years. And so, we're very encouraged and excited by that progress, but we want to continue that progress, which is why today's hearing is so important and we will continue to work through the challenges throughout the process and the challenges that many families may face, but we want to continue to invest in this work. So we uplift, thank and appreciate each of you. With that, we will now hear from the Honorable Register of Wills John Sabatina, Esq. Thank you. REGISTER OF WILLS SABATINA: Thank you, Chairman, members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. These cases, as you well know, disproportionately affect low-income families, seniors, communities of color. And the result is homes falling into disrepair, increased vulnerability to fraud and possible displacement. That is why I created the Title Clearance Unit within the Register of Wills Office. We saw a growing number of families who could not probate easily and therefore could not obtain clear title. They lack legal guidance, resources and the ability to navigate a complex system. The Title Clearance Unit within my office bridges the gap. It helps residents help themselves move from probate to ownership by coordinating legal assistance, resolving estate issues and connecting families to city, state and federal programs. This is not about expanding bureaucracy. It's about making government work as intended. Clear title means stability. It means families can stay in their homes, invest in their properties and pass on generational wealth. The Title Clearance Unit is practically a preservative solution to a problem that has lingered for decades, and it is already making a measurable difference in our neighborhoods. I have with me tonight -- today, I'm sorry, my able-bodied assistant Myasia Williams, who handles the Title Clearance Unit in my office. And she has a report to give to the committee. Go ahead, Myasia.

So -- I'm sorry.

Please state your full name for the record and then proceed.

My name is Myasia Williams with the Title Clearance Unit. Our Title Clearance Unit to date has cleared 118 titles. We've been working for a little over a year being proactive by informing constituents throughout the city that their property title may need to be cleared. At this point, we will need some sort of assistance to cover probate costs and other expenses that may come up. We are assisting the working-class citizens of the city. And many of them can afford to live, but they unfortunately do not have the means to cover the costs associated with clearing the title. So we would really appreciate some assistance because we really could service more constituents in the city if we were to receive funding.

Thank you very much -- REGISTER OF WILLS SABATINA: Go ahead.

You're good? Okay. Excellent. So I do have questions for this first panel. And I will tell you we're going to try to get through all of this as fast as we can because we do have a hard stop a little bit later. But relative to your office's interface with this process, can you just detail for the record exactly what you all do in sort of the service that you provide as it relates to helping clear the tangle title? And then we'll go from there.

Okay. Due to our limitations, we can assist with preparation of pro se Orphans' Court matters, provide guidance within the probate process, assist with transferring the title of the property into the rightful heirs' names and provide the resources for home improvement and tax relief. Our ultimate goal is to clear the property title so we also are recording a new deed for the rightful heirs.

Okay. And as it relates directly to the functions of your office, what specific role do you all play in this process? And I'm doing this in this way to have a record at this hearing to fully flush out what the process is at every step, whether it relates to interfacing with the Register of Wills Office, whether it relates to interfacing with the Department of Records as an example, even folks that have to interface with Revenue -- who I see here as well, thank you, Commissioner and your team -- same thing with the Law Department. Thank you very much. Beckley. We appreciate all the work that you do. But I'm trying to build and put together a puzzle, if you will, for our constituents to say this is each step in the process to clear a tangled title as it relates to how you interface with city government.

So our process depends on the constituents' needs. Some constituents may need to file a 21-year petition with Orphans' Court in order to qualify as the administrator of the estate with the Register of Wills. So we guide them through that process. And then when it gets to the probate stage, we guide them through the documentation required for them to become the administrator of the estate as well as guide them through the post-probate process of completing the tax forms and probate documents. We do not prepare the documents. We guide them through the entire process of the post- probate. And then we work with the Commissioner of the Recorder of Deeds to clear the property title and record it, and that's a courtesy from their office. Then after the deed is transferred over, we provide resources and advise them that they must go over to the MSB building to transfer the owner's name, the property taxes, water, gas into their names and -- I'm sorry.

In the process you said you provide resources. What would do you mean? Is it money or?

Resources of the Homestead application after the deed is transferred over. If they qualify for the LOOP program, we provide the application and we also just advise them to visit the MSB building to transfer the title to the property to their name. If they do need assistance with payment arrangements, then we provide them with the contact information to receive that assistance.

Excellent. So just really quick, how do residents get referred to your unit? And you already talked about how you all work with other city departments in Orphans' Court to help with resolving cases. At what point would a referral be necessary to a legal service partner or other attorney for assistance or does that happen?

Yes, it's a case-by-case basis. If we must outsource, but then we also have our own legal staff that can work on specific cases.

Okay. And then how do residents get referred to the unit?

Most of the constituents may visit our office or the Probate Department at the Register of Wills. If they're sent over by -- most of the time it's the MSB building or the Recorder of Deeds when they're looking to transfer deed over as well as we are sending letters on a weekly basis out to properties notifying them that our services are available to them.

Excellent. And how can Council offices better collaborate with you all to address tangled titles and wills and estates? And I have to say that you all were represented very well at our Homeownership Fair this Saturday at Community College of Philadelphia. With Councilman Young's Office and Councilman O'Rourke's Office, we had a homeownership fair and your office was there and represented. In every event that we have, we always have representation from your office. So I want to thank you very, very much for that. And we specifically love working with April. She has just been stellar. The seniors love her over at Wynne Plaza, but we appreciate that work. But how can we better collaborate with you all? And are there any state changes that you recommend that we continue to advocate for with our state partners? REGISTER OF WILLS SABATINA: If I might address that. One of the reasons we're here is because we don't have any allocation for any expenses that are incurred by the prospective homeowners. We do everything inhouse. Quite often we have to rely on the individual to come and pay the charges for title searches, what have you, because we just aren't in on the budget part of...

And I receive that. And I will say that even -- and that's why we're doing this to fully understand the process. But we do not now have a specific direct grant program. It's typically the funding that we have been allocating to the legal service community and the collaboration that we've had, which has been very longstanding with the city department that also assists constituents with tangled titles and deeds. And so, that's the impetus of this entire process to see who is responsible for what part of this process, you know, what the needs are, really to do a needs assessment, if you will, on each part of the process. But historically, as far as I know, this has been something that has been funded via the work that our city departments have done and thus, the support that's received for the legal service community, because they have an intake process and legal service agencies that then work with constituents and then pro bono attorneys that work with constituents. So I receive everything that you're saying and I hear you, and I'm glad we're getting this on the record. But I just want you to know that's not a result of our lack of wanting to support the work that you all are doing. It's seeking to understand every step of this process so we know what more we need to be doing and addressing. REGISTER OF WILLS SABATINA: Yeah. Well, what I try to get across to Council is we do every aspect of trying to get people's title clear. And I have staff that does it. We have lawyers on staff. It doesn't require going from this agency to that agency to try to do it. We have one-stop shopping. A person comes in with a problem and we handle it from start to finish, except we don't get funded for it.

Thank you. Are there any state-level changes that you all recommend that we advocate for during this process? REGISTER OF WILLS SABATINA: Excuse me. I'm sorry.

Are there any state- level changes that you believe we should be advocating for? REGISTER OF WILLS SABATINA: No. We're operating as we have been. It's just we could do much more if we could get funding to help some of these people that may have difficulty coming up with probate costs, title searches, what have you. As it is now, it's up to the individual to provide those payments. And we've been really successful. Like Myasia stated, I think we did over 118 properties in less than a year and all that with our own initiative.

Excellent. Well, thank you very, very much. Are there any additional questions for the Register of Wills Office? The Chair recognizes Vice-Chair Brooks.

Thank you so much for all the hard work you've done in helping Philadelphians to work out their tangled titles. I just have a question. You guys said you helped 118? REGISTER OF WILLS SABATINA: That's correct.

Yeah, that's a great number. And I was wondering what do we need to do to scale up the process to support -- I think we have 10,000 properties with tangled titles here in the city. So what type of support exactly would you need to make that happen?

So our office would need some assistance with covering those or providing a grant rather for probate calls. That can make a huge difference in a family. Up to just $1,000 could really be beneficial for a family in the city and we are free of charge, so our services are free. We just really need the funds, because statutorily the Register of Wills cannot waive probate fees.

Okay. So that's the biggest obstacle for you to scale up, that families do not have about $1,000 to cover the probate costs?

Yes.

And if they were able to do that, they will be able to help more families?

Yes, ma'am.

Okay. Do you have enough staffing to be able to scale up?

We will assign additional staffing.

Thank you so much.

You're welcome.

Thank you. Chair now recognizes Councilmember Landau.

Hi. Thank you so much for being here. Can you tell us more about the work you're doing, any educational work you're doing to inform the public about getting wills or alternative documents in place to pass along their house so we don't get into the problems of tangled titles going forward? REGISTER OF WILLS SABATINA: Yes. We have an outreach program where we go out into the community. So many of the Council offices when they have meetings within their district, we go to those districts. We go to the various unions. If they have any kind of forum, we address them all. One other thing I might add, the reason we can do so many title clearances is because we are not restricted by the income, the very low income that has been put on the books for some of the other agencies. Now, I realized that recently they recognized that and they're going to try to upgrade the amount of the income, but we are already doing that. And we can help some of your constituents that may not be at the poverty level but still need help, and we're there to do that when we fill that gap. Very sorry about that and I'll turn this off(phone ringing).

My second question is, I thought that your office kind of sat in the capacity that you could establish an IFP fee waiver program; am I incorrect about that?

That's Orphans' Court, ma'am.

You can't do any of the fee waivers within your office?

No. 14

Thanks.

And I'll interject here, if you will. I think I know what you're referring to, Councilmember Landau. I think Councilmember Landau is referring to the program that the former Register had around waiving fees. It was some type of waiving of fees. Can you just describe what that was?

Yes. The fee was not waived. It was deferred. The probate fees became a lien on the constituent's property, that they ultimately would have to pay the Register of Wills back if they were to sell the property. REGISTER OF WILLS SABATINA: The problem we discovered when I came into office is a lot of people had a misconception that the fees were waived, that they weren't. What my predecessor did was she just put a lien on the house for the payment of that fee. So instead of removing all the liens from the property, she put an additional lien on them which had to be resolved in order for them to proceed with sale or whatever they wanted to do. So they didn't provide a clean title.

Is there anything else with your process that we can help with to make things faster or more simpler, anything that we can help with to make that happen? REGISTER OF WILLS SABATINA: Yeah. Well, we would appreciate getting in on a funding cycle with all the other agencies so that we could provide more help to some of these people. There are some cases where the fees are so high that people can't go further with the process, even though we've helped them. So we had to sit back and wait for them to come up with the money to proceed.

Okay. Thank you.

The Chair now recognizes Vice-Chair Brooks.

I'm just trying to figure out how much is the amount of money that you said was tagged on as a lien? How much money were we talking about?

It varied. It's based off the value of the property. The lien was usually between $400 to $600 per estate.

Per who?

Per estate that was open.

Okay. All right. Thank you.

You're welcome.

Excellent. Well, thank you very much, colleagues. Are there any further questions for this panel? (No response.)

Okay. Seeing none, we thank you very much for coming in this afternoon to our Register of Wills and Myasia and your team. We appreciate the work that you all are doing. Thank you. Thank you so much. Will the Clerk please call the next witness for the next panel.

James Leonard, Commissioner of Department of Records. (Witnesses approached witness table.)

Excellent. Thank you so much, Commissioner Leonard, for being here. We truly appreciate the work of your office. You all have worked so hard to work with a number of constituents and have very innovative programs to help our constituents across the city. So please state your name for the record and proceed with your testimony. COMMISSIONER LEONARD: James Leonard, Commissioner of the Department of Records. Good afternoon, Chairperson Gilmore Richardson and members of the Committee on Law and Government. I am James Leonard, Commissioner of Records for the City of Philadelphia. Thank you for holding this important hearing on tangled title resolution processes. I'm going to edit some of my testimony in the interest of time, but you have my written testimony that we submitted. My department sits at the intersection of this crisis. We record deeds and maintain property ownership records. When someone dies without a will or an estate plan, their property becomes trapped. The deed never transfers to heirs, creating ownership uncertainty that can span generations. E. Initiative. All of the Department of records work on this issue, supports the initiative's goal of preserving homeownership and building generational wealth. While we must improve resolution 18 processes, we must also prevent new tangled titles from forming. In summer of 2024, I submitted a letter to the Pennsylvania House on behalf of the Mayor's administration supporting what's called the Uniform Partition of Heirs Property Act enacted in states and pending in more, 3 including Pennsylvania, where it 4 has passed the House. This 5 legislation provides important protections for co-owners of inherited property, ensuring fair buyout procedures and preventing forced sales below fair market value when one co-owner seeks to partition the property. Pennsylvania House Bill 13 2124, the Uniform Real Property Transfer On Death Act, is another promising proposal that would allow homeowners to designate beneficiaries through a simple deed recording. The Department of Records is committed to enhancing public education about estate planning, continued partnership with legal services providers and improved data sharing. We've conducted 173 deed fraud and tangled title outreach events reaching nearly 13,000 residents since 2023 and stand ready to expand. The city's Division of Housing and Community Development also plays a pivotal role in addressing this issue. DHCD works with a strong coalition of legal aid organizations, including Philadelphia VIP, Community Legal Services, Philadelphia Legal Assistance and Senior Law Center. In Fiscal Year 2026, DHCD allocated over $3 million to these organizations to provide free legal counsel to clients with tangled titles as well as estate planning services. A portion of that funding is granted to clients through the Tangled Title Fund. DHCD takes a multi-pronged approach to outreach and intake. While some clients are referred to the mortgage foreclosure diversion program, there's also a hotline managed by Philadelphia Legal Assistance, walk-in support at some of our partner sites and referrals from City Councilmember offices. Additional information about the program is housed within our network of Neighborhood Advisory Committee organizations, several of which provide direct referrals to our legal aid providers and licensed housing counselors. Finally, we take a data- informed approach to targeting our outreach by doing mailings and conducting community information sessions in neighborhoods where they're most likely to occur. In Fiscal Year 2025, our legal aid partners completed 275 successful title transfers, prepared 530 wills, and we're still addressing a substantial volume of open cases by year's end. This work often impacts low-income households. For example, 64% of the households with successful title transfer or will preparation were in the lowest income bracket, under 30% AMI.

On average, our legal aid partners open around 280 tangled title cases and 170 estate planning cases per quarter. Thank you for shining a light on this critical issue. The administration is ready to be a full partner in helping families reclaim and preserve their homes. And I'm happy to answer any questions.

Thank you. Thank you very much, Commissioner Leonard. We certainly appreciate all of the hard work that you and your team have been doing over the years, even collaborating with us on the legislation that we work together with the funeral homes on. And so, we just appreciate your work. For residents who need to interface with city departments, how do we help identify when someone has a tangled title and what is the process to connect them to the right resource? How do you all navigate that part of the process? COMMISSIONER LEONARD: I would say we encounter people two ways. One, at all of our community events we regularly encounter folks. And then we have folks who just walk in or call or contact our offices regularly. The most common question we receive is, my parent or a loved one, usually my parent or parents have passed away, I need to get the deed in my name. It usually starts with that simple question. And folks, you know, most commonly don't -- and I don't expect them to -- understand that beyond that simple question, it is a process that you elaborated on, the Register elaborated on, that can be quite complex for a layperson to navigate. So when folks come in and ask that question, our research team will typically look up their ownership history on the property, see where things stand there. And often times if it is a tangled title, we'll direct them to resources at the Register of Wills and legal aid organizations.

Excellent. Excellent. And so, for planning purposes -- and I know we have a variety of city departments and agencies represented here, and I want to say thank you all for being here because we work with many of you on policy-specific changes. And I'm looking at our Revenue Commissioner because we've done some great work from a policy perspective with their office, but we have been working now with our NAC partners to expand to each community across Philadelphia to ensure that we are educating communities around tangled titles or deeds. So if we could just have someone come up and talk about the NAC interface from a city perspective and just how we can continue to better collaborate with the administration from a Council Office perspective? (Witness approached witness table.)

Oh, Mark Dodds, I didn't see you here. How are you doing? How we can better collaborate with you all to ensure we're reaching as many constituents as possible?

Hello. Good afternoon.

Say your name for the record and proceed with your testimony. I didn't see you.

I wasn't trying to hide back there. Mark Dodds, Division of Housing and Community Development. I'm the Director of the Division. We currently partner with three NACs, GPCA, Strawberry Mansion and Hopeful to provide kind of like an intake for the public for tangled title services. They each operate with a budget of $30,000 a year, specifically for those purposes. That includes people coming in off the street that just have questions. That includes organizing events. And each one is directly connected with one of our legal aid organizations, so there's a direct pipeline for legal help if they need it. We are -- obviously the H.O.M.E. bond, there is money in there to expand our tangled title work. I know that's something you're interested in. We are thinking about different models that might be effective where some of the NACS that are operating in this pilot capacity could potentially work with other organizations to, you know, we've talked about a train- the-trainer model in the past. We think that rolling this out over time would probably be the most effective way to do that, particularly where there are gaps in services right now with only three NACs. That's obviously not citywide coverage. So we're definitely open for expansion in that area.

That would be awesome. And last question for you is relative to sort of I guess the original work that was done from a city perspective with your office on tangled titles. Prior to the expansion of the work that we did under the NPI program and now under the H.O.M.E. Plan, there was a specific process that you all followed. This is even before the expansion of the NAC support as an example. What was that process? That was back when I think we did the 250,000 every year for tangled titles through your department. What was that specific process? What did you all sort of do with those funds? Those funds were to help and assist the legal service agencies, correct? And I'm talking about this is going back before NPI, before we did the 7.6 million for NPI which is the 1.9 each year. What was the original process? And the only reason why I'm asking is to, one, get it on the record, but two, to show how the city process worked.

Yeah. We can go back and look at what we've done historically from the very beginning of the program. My understanding is that's always been in coordination with the Department of Records. We've always had a good relationship there. I can't speak to the very, very beginning stages. But more recently, kind of the process for intake is we've attempted to cast a really wide net, and that means that you can call the hotline. That's a great way for folks to get access to services, PLA, Philadelphia Legal Assistance manages that hotline. We fund them to do so. You don't get turned away. If there is lack of capacity for whatever reason at one of the organizations, they'll be able to refer you to another one. But I don't get the sense that there's these complicated handoffs. I think that our partners are very accustomed to working with one another, which creates a seamless way to get services. We also provide funding for a Tangled Title Fund, which is administered by Philadelphia VIP. And that's another great way for folks to get access to resources to help them with their tangled title issues.

Sure. And when we get to the next panel, we're going to talk more with PLA and also with Philly VIP to just talk about their process from start to finish, but I just wanted it to be on the record from a city perspective, that we provided support through your office to these organizations that provide the intake part of the process for tangled titles and deeds.

That's right. And it can look different. So sometimes that referral comes for a household that's going through one of our programs, like our Mortgage Foreclosure Diversion program. They could be accessing housing counseling services. They could be going to a NAC that isn't one of the three NACs that implement the pilot program, and they're still well-versed in the services we provide so they can make referrals. It's really a number -- and also through Council offices as well. So there's a number of different ways that we work on intake.

Excellent. Well, thank you very, very much. The Chair now recognizes Councilmember Phillips.

Thank you all so much. And also, I want to thank the Commissioner as well for his work around this issue. I've seen it firsthand. Quick question: Does the city track how long tangled title cases take to resolve? And also, if they fail at it? Does your department -- COMMISSIONER LEONARD: I'm not aware -- the Department of Records doesn't track them.

Okay.

So we do have pretty robust data behind the program and we coordinate with all four partner agencies at any given point in time. We can tell you how many cases are open versus how many are closed. What gets tricky from a data standpoint is that cases can go past fiscal years. And I would think that if we needed to dig a little further, we could probably get information about the length of time.

So you are clear about how many tangled titles exist in the city, like the exact number?

We are clear about how many open tangled title cases exist that our partners are working on. And I know there's research that points to estimates in the city.

Would it be helpful if City Council required or requested reporting on outcomes of these cases or what's being worked on and certain addresses, especially if we want to know from a district standpoint?

Through the H.O.M.E. program, through the H.O.M.E. bond, we are committed to actively reporting on everything that gets funded through that initiative, tangled title included.

And my final question is when I read the testimony from the Commissioner, this really struck me, and also when I listened to you, you just said for families -- resolving tangled titles currently requires navigating multiple city agencies, Register of Wills, Orphans' Court, Department of Revenue, our office, and that requires a lot of families to hire certain attorneys, average costs, people are making money off of this. What is a better way, especially for low-income families or for even moderate-income families, right, that you all can collaborate together with all of these offices so it doesn't feel like there's one person to intercede for all of these offices that does every single thing for that individual as opposed to having do all these? Is there a better way to reduce costs for families? COMMISSIONER LEONARD: I think the statistic from -- the best data we have is from the Pew Charitable Trust study from a few years ago, and that estimates about an average of $9,200 to resolve a tangled title and legal costs. And I think the difficulty, Councilperson, is all the agencies here know is it requires legal intervention or legal proceedings to resolve each one of these, including probate and perhaps others, depending on the complexity. And there can also be more than one estate, as we call it, at issue, if you have multiple deceased parties over sometimes successive generations.

Is there a one-page cheat sheet that will help a family that just recently got into this to understand exactly what they need to do like 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7? COMMISSIONER LEONARD: Mark and DHCD can comment too. I think the Council or the Chairperson's legislation that required funeral services providers to hand out a tangled title information sheet, which I actually worked with the Register of Wills last week on the update, and the Chairperson's team is reviewing it now. I think that provides a good snapshot for laypeople of what to do. It sort of goes back to what the Chairperson mentioned at the beginning, which is trying to create sort of like a step-by-step map of this process. I think that that cheat sheet is a good attempt to do that.

And my last quick question, what information do residents often lack at the start of the process? What's the thing that they commonly don't have available when they start this process? COMMISSIONER LEONARD: A lot of times they may think they own the property. From a legal standpoint, they own the property. For example, they don't necessarily know that their name doesn't automatically go on the deed. If the understanding was within the family that let's say a son or daughter or child was to inherit the property, sometimes when they come to our respective offices, there's a belief that we can sort of change that at the counter. I think only to find out that it's a much more, as I said, complex, sometimes legal process that requires the Register of Wills and others. So part of it is education a lot of times when folks come in and just sort of help -- sort of back up a step.

Well, listen we have another hearing after this so I'm not going to hold all my questions. But I just -- I don't know. I just think that we just -- the ones that exist, just get to the people, get to them right away. Let them know. I'm not sure how well we're getting to those people because I would want to know now. So thank you, Chair. COMMISSIONER LEONARD: I the thing I want to say in response, as we are looking at -- I had mentioned data sharing in my testimony, and part of what we're looking at is trying to figure out how to potentially identify the actual folks who are in tangled title versus aggregated numbers in order to be able to potentially design earlier intervention programs instead of waiting to encounter them either in our offices when they're in crisis or at community events.

A targeted, proactive approach seeking to help the families resolve the tangled title prior to them getting in crisis. Because at the point that we typically receive them, they're in crisis. And there's several estates sometimes back. And so, it requires the untangling of multiple estates to even get to the process of actually recording the new deed, so we appreciate that work. We're hopeful we can work with you all to continue to do that. But thank you to Mark Dodds and the entire team at DHCD for your continued work in collaboration with the NACs and supporting the legal service agencies. We have them on the next panel, so we'll be able to talk about their part of the process. But, Commissioner Leonard, you have been stellar. Thank you for working with us on the tangled title information sheet. I have the updates in this folder. I'm going through them in advance of the press conference we'll have tomorrow with Madam Mayor on the new deed for legislation that was just passed by this body. So thank you very, very much and we look forward to the continued collaboration. I apologize. We have two more questions -- you good? Okay. We have one more question from Councilmember Landau. So the Chair now recognizes Councilmember Landau.

Thank you so much. I'll be quick. I am the Chair of the Technology and Information Services Committee, so you were already starting to talk about what I was most interested in. It sounds like we have moved to a phase in the world where we can do more proactive research. And I know some other departments in the city are starting to do it. Can you just tell us quickly a little bit more about what you're looking into and if there's anything else from a data sense that we can utilize that will make this process go quicker and easier? COMMISSIONER LEONARD: Yeah. Without getting overly technical, what we're working on with OIT, the Office of Information Technology, is having some -- well, it's trying to recreate internally the results of the Pew Study, the aggregate numbers. So we created a data set of the acts -- right now we have census tract level data, so we're working with folks a lot smarter than I am in this stuff in OIT who are wonderful. Shout-out to them to try and, my words, reverse engineer that so we can have a data set of the actual properties to then open up new avenues to design earlier intervention programs that are directed at the actual folks that are in this condition, but a lot of whom don't know that they are.

I'll just add, some of our partners are also actively working in that space too on the tech front to identify individual properties. And we currently have a somewhat smaller network, but we are actively working to expand through grant funding and other means. Our community connector program, which kind of exists within NACs where folks can go door-to-door, representing, you know, maybe there are people that the residents are familiar with and more likely to open the door when they come. We found a lot of success with flyers. So I think we're all on the same page that we want to use data to help inform this process.

And we appreciate the work of Philly 360 Stat for providing that information, so I think that'll be helpful as well. Thank you very, very much. No additional questions for this panel? (No response.)

Okay. Seeing none, thank you very much. COMMISSIONER LEONARD: Just give a quick shout-out. I gave each of you a little flyer from our City archives inviting you all or anybody here to come down and see our Black History Month Exhibit that just went up last week, that features the theme of Black educators in Philadelphia and Black education throughout history.

Thank you. We appreciate that work, Commissioner Leonard, to you and to your team. And each one of these historical figures in our city played a very important role in education, but none other than Philadelphia High School for Girls graduate Dr. Constance E. Clayton. Now, the Board of Education building is named in her honor at 440 North Broad Street. She was a teacher, first woman and first Black superintendent of the School District of Philadelphia. So we uplift and honor her legacy. Also, Dr. John Turner, first Black person to serve on the Board of Public Education in Philadelphia. And Carolyn LeCount, activist and teacher. She was engaged to our activist that we have, our statue here at City Hall, but she was prominent in her own right. Not only was she engaged Octavius V. Catto, but she was prominent in her own right. And I think she was also affiliated with the Institute for Colored Youth as well, which is now Cheyney University. And so, we uplift and honor this Black History Month moment. And we appreciate you all for sharing this and we look forward to visiting your City archives. Thank you very much. COMMISSIONER LEONARD: Thank you. (Applause.)

Will the Clerk please call the next panel.

Kevin Boswell and Adam Weintraub-Barth from Senior Law Center; Roxanne Crowley from Philadelphia Legal Assistance; Kelly Gastley from Philadelphia VIP and Michael Froehlich and Anna Brickman from Community Legal Services. (Witnesses approached witness table.)

We thank each of you for being here and truly the work that you all have been doing. We ask that as you approach the witness table, that you state your name for the record, proceed with an abbreviated version of your testimony because we want to hear from all six of you. And I will say that we also have witnesses for the next bill that are tuning in from Los Angeles, California and they have a very hard stop at 3 o'clock. And so, I want to honor their time because we're running a little bit behind today. And so, we will receive the testimony, the important testimony of the legal service agencies because you all are doing sort of the initial intake and seeing the cases through, but please provide an abbreviated version of your testimony. And then we want to ask you as many questions as we can so that we can get to the last panel, so that we can then hear from the experts who have joined us from Los Angeles County. Is that okay? All right. Excellent. Okay. Please state your name for the record and proceed with your testimony.

Good afternoon. My name is Roxanne Crowley. I supervise the Tangled Title Team at Philadelphia Legal Assistance. Thank you, Councilwoman Gilmore Richardson, committee members for having me here today. I've had the opportunity to collaborate with tangled title advocates from across the country, and I can attest to the fact that Philadelphia remains a leader in tangled title, and that is largely through the ongoing investment by Council and the city into this work. Prior to receiving funding through NPI in 2022, Philadelphia Legal Assistance didn't have significant resources to address tangled title cases. However, since then we've been able to build our first small but mighty tangled title team. We've obtained record ownership for over 300 clients. We currently have 250 open and ongoing tangled title cases, and we provided advice to 1000 Philadelphians with tangled title issues. So thank you for your support in that great work. What I would like to address now are two policy issues briefly that we think that we need more tools to develop. My colleagues here also have a couple of policy issues they'd like to address and we all collectively agree and support on these issues. What we need right now are new tools to resolve cases with missing errors and uncooperative errors. As you know -- and, Councilman, as you mentioned -- some of our probate and estate cases span generations. We may have a client who was born and raised and continued to reside in his great-grandmother's home. Through working with us to try to resolve his title, he may learn for the first time that a second, fourth or fifth cousin also has a legal right in that property. Right now in Pennsylvania there's no legal mechanism that recognizes our client's greater right to that house through possession and residing there and maintaining the property. There's no legal mechanism that recognizes our client's greater right over the cousin that family hasn't seen in decades. That's why we need legislative change to our adverse possession law in Pennsylvania to permit heirs to adversely possess against other heirs or co-tenants to adversely possess against other co-tenants. States such as New York and Texas have these laws, and we could model Pennsylvania laws after theirs. This legislative reform would allow us to clear more titles, because right now these are cases we have to close and where we can assist the clients. The --

Can we pause there for one second because that's huge. Can you walk us through the pros and the cons of that process?

I'm very biased. I really only see the pros. So very technically, right now in Pennsylvania you can only adversely possess against another heir or co-tenant, maybe someone else who's on the deed with you, if you go through a performance called Ouster. And very simply, and this is in my written testimony, ouster could be taking someone's stuff and throwing it out of the house and changing the locks. And that doesn't happen in estate cases. Like the client I mentioned, she didn't even know her distant cousin had a legal right to this house. So we can't prove the element of ouster. However, in other states they don't have to overcome that hurdle to then file 6 an adverse possession claim against the other heirs. The hurdle I guess I would see is in the United States property rights are held with high regard, and they don't want people to lose their property right without what they would consider proper notice. So I think the concern would be that the distant cousin might not get proper notice, that she had a right in the property and might be divested. But we also have notice requirements that we can use to overcome that.

Interesting. I want to talk more about that, because that's something I think we need to take to our state partners in our Philadelphia delegation and sort of talk through what that would look like and what the potential pros and cons may or may not be. Okay.

Looking forward to it.

Okay. But you had a second one.

One more and then passing it on. The other is we have uncooperative heirs, so these could be very simple cases legally. For instance, I have a client who's living in his deceased mother's house. The house is a mortgage foreclosure. The only other heir is his brother, who lives in Florida in his own home. In order to save this home in Philadelphia, our client needs sole title, so only his name on the deed, so he can then assume the loan and then modify it to make it affordable to him. The Florida brother would rather see this property lost to foreclosure than to just give his brother his one half of the house. Florida brother wants a buyout. And our clients do not have access to the capital needed to buy out other heirs. So for this reason, we were really thrilled. And I very recently learned that Council added an addition to the One Philly Mortgage program that created a carve-out for heir buyouts. I think that would be a magnificent tool for our clients. And the city continues to develop this program, I encourage you to look to other loan products, such as the one provided by Sustainable Neighborhoods in New York City. They offer an heir buyout loan for low-income New York City residents. And that loan is offered at low to no interest without regard to marketable title or lien priority, so it's very accessible.

Now, that's huge, because that's most of the cases we've received recently. In fact, I just got a case just now -- I guess they must be watching on Channel 64 -- that I just sent to my staff while I was sitting here that we have to send to you all. And it's the same challenge of the heir buyout. So that's interesting. And that's in New York City proper, not in New York state?

You know, I can't remember for sure if that program extends to the state. But sustainable neighborhoods is a CDFI. So they offer a variety of loan products and this is one of their newer ones.

Received. Excellent.

I'm happy to answer other questions. But at this time, I'd like to pass it to my colleague Kevin.

Sure. And this is what we're going to do, because I want to ensure that we hear from these folks from LA. So we'll take the testimony here, if this is okay, colleagues. Let's take the testimony. We'll go through questions that we have. If we have anything additional, we'll submit the questions directly to you for response for the committee. Then we will pause this resolution. We will go into Bill No. 251098 and Resolution No. 251108 to hear from the folks from LA, because they have a hard stop at 3:00, correct?

(Inaudible).

No, are you guys -- okay. I just want to make sure. All right. So we'll take the testimony. Then we'll stay at 260029. We'll get Panel 3 for the last one. Then we'll go directly to them when we hear the next one. Okay. Thank you. Please state your name for the record and proceed with your testimony.

Good afternoon. My name is Kevin Boswell. I'm supervising attorney with the Housing Justice Team at Senior Law Center. Thank you, Chair Gilmore Richardson, Vice- Chair Brooks and the rest of the Committee on Law and Government and City Council for having this hearing, allowing us to speak here today. I will highlight very briefly points from our written testimony of congratulations, gratitude and advocacy. I first want to congratulate City Council on its work addressing the tangled title epidemic in Philadelphia. Rather than looking the other way, previous and current City Councilmembers face the challenge enacted, not just through words or platitudes, but by passing legislation and allocating funding. You put your money where your mouth is. Senior Law Center is the only nonprofit organization in Philadelphia -- or excuse me, in Pennsylvania with its mission dedicated strictly to seeking justice for older adults, one of very few in the nation. Thanks to your continued support through funding and legislation, older homeowners are in a better place today than they were in 2021. Since the allocation of funding, Senior Law Center has advised or represented nearly 1000 older individuals facing tangled titles. Three-quarters of those cases are from the hardest-hit areas in West and North Philadelphia. We've recorded 67 deeds, transferring titles to homeowners after extended litigation or probate. And furthermore, we've executed almost 1500 estate planning documents to prevent further tangled titles. While this progress is extraordinary, many obstacles still remain. We've heard of some of those from Roxanne. Today I'd like to highlight that city and state laws currently disqualify heirs from the estate exemption when they inherit their homes subject to mortgage. This increases the obstacles to recording their deeds. As currently structured, this constitutes a regressive poverty tax. It perversely exempts the affluent heir through a debt- free estate from the transfer tax, while stripping the exemption from those struggling to preserve their family homes under the weight of a mortgage. This policy creates a tax on debt as opposed to wealth, an absurd and surely unintended result. Councilmember Gilmore Richardson has sponsored a bill to expand the estate exemption to cover properties inherited subject to a mortgage. It is a narrowly tailored fix that will place low-income heirs on the same footing as wealthy heirs and expand the path to homeownership. We urge you to pass this commonsense litigation to ensure that this past progress continues through tomorrow. With fixed incomes eroded by inflation, (inaudible) by disability, frailty and mobility challenges, the specific needs of older homeowners are too often ignored. To address our housing crisis, we must prioritize sensible regulatory reforms that help older residents age in place with dignity, thereby securing the most accessible form of affordable housing, the homes that they already own. Thank you very much for your time.

Thank you. Thank you very much for your testimony and for all the work and the bill idea. We are moving forward with that legislation thanks to the work of your team. We're very appreciative. I mean, I was subject to that as well. I inherited two properties, both with mortgages and I had to purchase them from my parents' estate. And I paid out of pocket for everything, which is why I know every part of this process most intimately because of what happened to my family and I. And I remember, I think we spent over $10,000 just in almost lawyer fees. That doesn't include all the separate fees for each part of the process, and then of course to acquire both of the properties. And so, we appreciate that work. We look forward to presenting that legislation to my colleagues and working towards their support and ultimate passage. So thank you so much. We'll take your testimony. Please proceed. State your name for the record.

Good afternoon, members of the committee. My name is Anna Brickman. I am a supervising attorney in the Homeownership and Consumer Rights Unit at Community Legal Services, where I focus on resolving tangled titles. I am pleased to testify here alongside our legal partners today about CLS's ongoing work to address tangled titles. As Council knows, CLS was established by the Philadelphia Bar Association in 1966. As the city's largest provider of free legal services, we assist approximately 14,000 of Philadelphia's poorest residents with their legal problems every year. Thousands of people in Philadelphia face barriers to achieving homeownership because they have a tangled title. CLS has worked on these issues in conjunction with its foreclosure work for many years, starting in 2021 with the city's historic investment to help homeowners with tangled titles. As part of the Neighborhood Preservation Initiative, CLS has been able to focus more resources on helping clients with these issues. Today we have a dedicated team of nine advocates, a combination of attorneys and paralegals focused exclusively on representing clients with tangled titles. In 2025, we worked with 673 clients with tangled titles. We successfully cleared 118 titles in that year. We also wrote wills for 274 homeowners and we participated in 90 wills clinics and outreach events, many with our close partners, affordable housing centers of Pennsylvania. The work on tangled titles remains robust and ongoing, requiring continued collaboration with our legal partners, city agencies and elected officials. We are grateful to City Council and the administration for its focus and investment in addressing tangled titles. Over the past few years, our team has gained greater expertise and become more efficient in raising estates, resolving titles, litigating in Orphans' Court and executing estate planning documents. We are also working to address systemic issues that pose unnecessary hurdles and impediments. In March 2025, we convened the first statewide conference of legal advocates, helping clients to resolve tangled titles. It was attended by over 80 practitioners from across the Commonwealth. Out of that conference, we began to plan for a statewide legislative campaign to enact transfer-on-death-deed legislation to ease the transfer of family homes after death. Transfer-on-death deeds, also known as TODDs permit a homeowner to declare in their deed the name of the person to whom their home should pass upon their death. It serves as an alternative to an expensive estate planning and probate process. During a homeowner's life, the beneficiary named on the TODD has no interest in the property and the owner retains full power to transfer or encumber the property or to revoke or amend the deed. Upon the homeowner's death however, the beneficiaries, typically the children or other heirs, can record a new deed recognizing this interest. If the family home is the only estate asset, the heirs need not go through the cumbersome and expensive probate process. Similar legislation has been adopted in 13 states. And I'm happy to report 14 that last Wednesday, House Bill 15 2124 passed out of the House 16 Judiciary Committee on a unanimous, 17 bipartisan vote. 18 Untangling a title is a 19 complicated, expensive and time- 20 consuming, yet absolutely critical 21 method to address the racial wealth 22 gap for low-income and minority communities through homeownership. We appreciate City Council's ongoing support of our work in this area and look forward to continued collaboration as we seek solutions to this problem. Thank you to the committee for convening this hearing and thank you to all of City Council for your continued support of our work.

Thank you. Thank you very much for your testimony. Please state your name for the record and proceed.

Thank you. My name is Kelly Gastley. I'm the managing attorney at Philadelphia VIP. VIP has been helping clients with tangled title and estate planning issues for over years. 20 We are very grateful for the support of City Council and DHCD on this issue. At VIP, we recruit, train and support volunteer attorneys who represent our clients pro bono. From 2022 to 2025, our staff and volunteers helped almost 300 clients get title to their homes and they also helped another 427 homeowners get wills, and many of those clients receive powers of attorney as well. Our partnership with a private bar expands legal services, but it also builds long- term investment and expertise across our legal community. We have volunteers from a broad range of settings, law firms like Troutman Pepper Locke and White & Williams, inhouse counsel at companies like Accenture and Vanguard, and growing engagement from affinity groups like the Barristers' Association and the South Asian Bar Association. In fact, Barristers' President Samantha Fitzpatrick, shout-out to her, she's making volunteering on VIP's estate planning work a priority during her term. VIP also coordinates with all of our legal services partners up here today and collaborates with the DHCD on the reporting of data, something I know you were asking about, Councilmember Phillips. We coordinate to make sure we're providing data for the NPI dashboard, and our data and analytics manager meets with the DHCD monitoring department to make sure that it has the data that it needs. We appreciate this opportunity to work with DHCD and our partner agencies to make sure this important information and data is getting out there. VIP also administers the Tangled Title Fund, which we've heard about today, which covers the legal and administrative costs of resolving tangled title issues, which clients really cannot afford to pay on their own. The Tangled Title Fund distributed over $400,000 to nearly 300 low-income applicants just in 2025 alone. Expenses like probate filing fees, transfer taxes and inheritance taxes are covered. With rising property values, the amount requested particularly for transfer taxes has been increasing and a deed cannot be recorded without that being paid. Thanks to the partnership of DHCD and Department of Records Commissioner Jim Leonard, who we heard from earlier, the Tangled Title Fund has been able to expand the cap per household and ensure that homeowners with particularly high transfer tax bills can still have their deed recorded. The next step I want to focus on is continued collaboration with our partners at the Register of Wills, who we heard from earlier. Working with them is really a key component of our work because these cases involve so many nuances that present unique challenges in the probate process. When those issues arise, we need to work through them constructively with the staff at the Register of Wills. Together, we look for practical solutions that balance adherence to the law with avenues that allow petitions for probate to move forward. We appreciate the opportunities we've had to have inperson discussions during the Register's first year in office and we look forward to future discussions to continue to help more homeowners. Thank you again so much for having this hearing and for your continued support and attention to this issue.

Thank you. Well, thank you very much for your work, and we've worked very closely with many of you through the past six years now on the tangled title issue, so we appreciate your continued work and support. I wanted to ask a couple questions. You, Kelly, just spoke about the current cap per client for the Tangled Title Fund. We want to ensure that we are placing enough dollars in the fund specifically because, as you stated, with housing prices rising across the city of Philadelphia, we have noted also that the transfer tax fees are increasing. And so, I know that you all have just had a discussion relative to increasing the cap. If you could just talk about the Tangled Title Fund and how folks are connected to the fund, that would be great. And then for each of you here on the panel representing each of the legal service agencies, if you could just talk about from a city perspective how the city can do a better job of collaboration. And when I say that, I mean are there any pain points in the process that may need to be addressed to make your life easier as it relates to resolving tangled titles for clients, whether it would be the first part of the process with the Register of Wills Office or if we need to be doing more from a Council perspective, just let us know what we need to do to further help the work that you all are doing on the ground? And I see Michael back there. I thought you would be up here. And I got to give you a shout-out, Michael Froehlich, because we call you all the time. Thank you. Thank you very, very much for always answering the call. And we have another constituent coming your way that we just sent during the hearing. So thank you very, very much.

So many of our Tangled Title Fund applicants come from our fellow legal services agencies, folks who they are already helping to resolve their tangled title issues and need to access the fund in order to move forward with their case. The fund is also available beyond those agencies. We actually have a meeting tomorrow and I was reviewing materials before coming here and we have a pro se applicant. So sorry, that's attorney lingo. But we have someone who applied and actually had already resolved most of her tangled title issue on her own, but needed access to the Tangled Title Fund to pay transfer taxes for her deed, you guessed it. And so, she reached out to us and our Tangled Title Fund administrator helps her put her application together and get everything in, helped her order a title report and get everything into the committee so that we can hopefully approve it at tomorrow's meeting and get her a check to pay those transfer taxes and have her deed recorded. So there's a variety of ways. There's no one right way for someone to get to the Tangled Title Fund. Most folks are getting to us through some other advocate who they have already reached out to and is helping them to resolve their tangled title issue. Because title issues are so involved and complicated to resolve without some sort of legal advice or assistance, usually folks are connected to us through another legal advocate.

Okay. Well, we thank you very, very much. If any of you can answer the question relative to the interface with all the city departments and agencies, Council, just want to ensure that we are doing all that we can on our side to make the process and the interface for you all as easy as possible? And I'll say this, if there's additional information that you all can share offline as well, that would be helpful.

I guess this is frankly not an answer. But what I want to say in response to that question is that I think that what we're doing is working. We have a robust system of intake and of collaboration both with city agencies, with Council, with different Councilmember's offices, with the Save Your Home Philly Hotline, with the NACs. The costs associated with our cases are funded by the Tangled Title Fund. We work together. You've heard all of our numbers. And so, in response to saying what can we do better, I would like to also point out that I think that what we do is working really well and you've heard all of our numbers, to say that we are helping address the tangled title problem in Philadelphia. Are we doing it all, like could there be more done? Certainly, there could be more. There are more cases that we haven't reached yet, but the clients that come to us, we are handling them and we are handling them as expeditiously as possible. But to honestly answer your question, I think that the legislation that was brought up earlier by Roxanne from Philadelphia Legal Assistance regarding transfer taxes and mortgages is a very significant hurdle that could have meaningful impact on our clients immediately.

Okay. That would be great. So we're working on that legislation and we look forward to processing that through the Council legislative process. Kelly, and then the Chair will recognize Vice- Chair Brooks for a question.

Councilmember, I would also add that I think -- I can speak for the other agencies to say, I think we have a lot of clients who are coming in our doors right now, and we're working through helping them on their cases. I don't know what that's going to look like in a year or two years and there may be a point where we come to you and say, we've got more capacity. There's nothing close to a backlog, right. If we get to that point where we need more help spreading awareness, I think the city has done a tremendous job in the last five years of spreading awareness about this issue, which is amazing. When I used to testify on this issue before City Council, I'd have to start by explaining what tangled title is and that's no 22 longer the case anywhere in Philadelphia. Everyone knows what it is. And so, we have a lot of clients who are coming in to us. And, yes, clients are coming in, in crisis, but we have more clients coming in not in crisis than we've ever had, which is really great. Folks who are just saying, I know this is an issue and I know I need to resolve it. And that's really, really amazing and so heartwarming to see that we can help folks before there's a crisis and before too much time has passed. And so, I think as we continue to kind of catch up on this issue, so to speak, we will reach a point where we will need more of your help in making sure we're continuing to push the word out and that this issue hasn't been resolved. It's not going to be resolved in the next year or two. It's a long-term issue. And your continued support and help when we reach that point and need to keep pushing out awareness, we really look forward to your partnership in doing that.

Well, that's really good news, and that's thanks to the work that we all have been doing together. It's been a we thing. So thank you very, very much, but you all are on the front lines. You were seeing all of the cases, so we definitely appreciate you so much. Chair recognizes Vice- Chair Brooks.

Thank you so much, Chair. So several of you mentioned about state laws and policies that would be helpful. And I was trying to figure out what are the most important ways our partners in Harrisburg could help you address some of these tangled title issues. We're doing great here in Philly, but what more could be done with state laws and policy? And Part 2 is, what would you like to see in this tangled title program over the next five years? You said we've come a long way in five years now. What about the next five years? How could we make positive changes here with the tangled title program?

With the state laws and the policy, I think as Philadelphians we kind of always frame things as a Philadelphia problem, so helping us think critically and big picture about how some of the legislation we want passed, such as adverse possession against other heirs, will impact people throughout the state of Pennsylvania. So maybe limiting it to residential properties, have it not apply to big tracts of farmland, things like that, I think we could use up in that area.

And I would just mention as far as the first part of your question for state law, the estate exemption carve-out for properties that are inherited subject to mortgage is a Philadelphia law. It's also a state law. So we can set an example by passing that here at the City Council level and send a message to the state legislature that it would be beneficial for them to do the same thing.

As for the -- do you want me to continue? Okay. As for your question about what should we be focusing on and doing in the next five years, I think a really important piece will be trying to focus on getting to homeowners sooner. After someone has passed away, owning a home, something that Councilmember Gilmore Richardson's funeral home, I call it very informally, the funeral home bill, but what that bill was trying to get to was let's try to get to folks early because these cases can be resolved much more quickly and much more simply, if we get to them not too long after a family member has passed away, before all the heirs have scattered and gone back to wherever they may live and while folks are kind of maybe working more cooperatively and constructively together. And if we can do that, I think we can really move the needle much more quickly on these matters, getting to folks earlier. I know for legal services, we can help someone in that situation. If mom passed away a few months ago, it's a very different case in a positive way than when mom passed away years ago. And so, if we can keep working on trying to let people know, I know it's hard when someone has passed away, but we can make it simpler in the long run if we deal with these issues together.

With 9 regard to the question about 10 working on a statewide level, I think in addition to all of the excellent policy ideas that we are working on and that we've discussed today, I think one of the -- there's so many reasons why such excellent work is being done in Philadelphia. But one of the many is that the Pew report came and identified the problem and really put numbers behind the problem. And I think that really galvanized a lot of the work, and there's not an equivalent study of the number and identity of tangled titles on a statewide level. And I think that with those numbers would come, obviously would come hopefully, of investment, and if you can identify the problem and fund work to solve the problem, I think you first need to identify the problem. And so, it's easier here in Philadelphia because we can point to these very concrete numbers. And I think just to add to the five-year piece, I think to echo what Kelly Gastley said earlier, I think that one of the most important things is that we need to continue to work cooperatively with the Register of Wills. We cannot solve these problems without the Register of Wills because almost every case goes through the Register of Wills with few exceptions. And so, we value our relationship with I think with their staff, all members of their staff, because I think we're probably in that office every day, and without that office or at least several times a week, without that office we couldn't do the work. They truly are the gatekeepers of this work. And so, I think that continuing to collaborate and think creatively with the ROW staff about how we can work together is crucial for our success over the next five years, because truly nearly every case touches that office.

Received. And we love working with the Register of Will's Office, particularly not only on our community events, but also I found that Lou DiRenzo and Colleen have been excellent and everybody there. I don't want to start calling names because then you get in trouble. But they all have been excellent. But you said you all have to physically go there each day. Is there an electronic process that we could work towards implementing that could be helpful for some of the documents that maybe you all could receive electronically, because you have to physically go there almost every day, you said?

Every time we probate a case, we have to go there. So I would guess that we go there at least weekly, if not several times a week, but to probate. But certainly, there are -- the communication that we have in terms of them electronically sending us files, when that can happen, that's very helpful. But currently, probate in Philadelphia is primarily done in person, though I know that when I've appeared in Delaware County, their first line of probate is actually electronic, so that's something that we could think about.

I think that's a great idea. And I'm looking at Rue, the Chair of our Technology Committee. I'm like tap in, Rue, because that could be an opportunity for us to streamline the process a bit to figure out how we can be better collaborators from a city perspective and ensuring that maybe if it's not the very first meeting, because I remember that first meeting, my sister and I went in, we had to sit down, fill out the paperwork, but maybe some of the subsequent needs that can be done electronically that we are working towards that end, I think that would be great.

I just want to add on to that. I know in Montgomery County, I was able to probate electronically for no 7 additional cost. There isn't an additional fee here in Philadelphia to do it online. I wanted to add on, and this is pie in the sky, no 11 guarantees, none of us have probably staff to do this. But I think it would be great because I agree with Kelly that we are dealing with so many clients in crisis, that if Register of Wills is able to identify people who need help with deeds, if Department of Records have people coming in who need help with their own tangled title, if they can somehow get us that information and that we can proactively reach out to them. We run the hotline. We can add them as a callback. I mean, my boss isn't here, but of course more staff for that. But I think once someone has gone in and been told no and then they have to call another number, you kind of lose gas and kind of want to push an issue.

Received.

But with more resources, I think we could all work together that way.

That's a great idea. Chair now recognizes Councilman Phillips.

Quick question: Just to the TODD legislation, it has to go to the Senate or is it over? Is it officially a law now signed by the Governor?

It's not yet. It was just voted out of the House Judiciary Committee --

So we got a couple more -- is it going to be successful out of the Senate, you think?

I would like to think so. We have put together a diverse group of stakeholders from across the state from the AARP to the --

It sounds like it will solve half, if not the majority, of our problems if it passes.

I don't think we have numbers about how much of the problem we think it's going to solve, but we think it's going to be a very effective tool to use for low and moderate-sized estates. But that is going forward. It's not going to solve -- it's a deed that you would sign now so that it would help going forward, but it wouldn't help any of the currently existing tangled titles.

Okay. Thank you.

All right. Well, thank you all so much. Seeing no additional questions for this panel -- you said, Councilman -- okay. Seeing no additional questions for this panel, we thank you all for all the great work that you've been doing and we look forward to our continued partnership and collaboration. Have a wonderful day. Thank you. If the Clerk could please call Panel 3. And we'll ask that as you approach the witness table, please state your name for the record, proceed with an abbreviated version of your testimony so that we can get to the last bill and resolution. Thank you.

Charlotte Bradley, Katie McGrath and Amanda Colon Smith, please approach. (Witnesses approached witness table.)

Thank you very much for your presence and for your patience. Please state your name for the record and proceed with an abbreviated version of your testimony. Thank you.

Good afternoon, Chairwoman Gilmore Richardson, Vice-Chairwoman Brooks and members of the Law and Government Committee. Our names are Charlotte Bradley -- MS. McGRATH: And Katie McGrath.

We are both members of Greater Philadelphia Association of realtors known as GPAR. We thank the Majority Leader for the invitation to testify today with regards to Resolution 260029. GPAR represents more than 3400 licensed real estate agents and industry service providers throughout Philadelphia. Realtors see the negative impact of tangled titles every day. These are not rare legal issues. They are widespread barriers that prevent families from fully owning, protecting and sustaining and ultimately benefiting from homeownership. When a title is tangled, a property often cannot be sold, transferred, refinanced or properly insured, leaving long-time residents or their heirs stuck in legal limbo, even if they have lived in and cared for the home for decades. As the Pew Charitable Trust reported in 2021, more than 10,000 tangled title cases were unresolved and the true number is likely higher. As cited in the resolution, Philly Stat 360 reported that only 2769 of these cases were resolved from 2022 to 2024. Over $1.1 billion in Philadelphia property is affected, concentrated in predominantly Black and Brown neighborhoods that have also seen steep increases in property values. Rising values should help families build generational wealth. Instead, without a clear title, many are locked out of that opportunity and face greater risk of deed fraud, displacement and predatory practices, not to mention the added cost of remedying the issue. Tangled titles also block access to critical resources. Homeowners without clear titles may be denied homeowner insurance and often ineligible for tax relief, repair grants and utility assistance. We regularly see homes that need repairs to remain safe and to sustain homeownership, but families are barred from accessing help because of the unresolved title issues. The process of fixing the tangled title is complex, time-consuming and expensive. Pew estimates that legal costs average more than $9,000, which is an impossible amount for many seniors and heirs and low-income households. The process is not only costly, it is convoluted, often involving multiple offices, including the Register of Wills, Orphans' Court, Department of Records and the Department of Revenue, for residents already dealing with grief or financial hardship. This system can be overwhelming. MS. McGRATH: That's why this hearing and the solutions that can follow are so important: As professionals who represent homebuyers and sellers every day, we urge the city to consider stronger interagency coordination. I'm going to abbreviate this for you. Expanded funding for the Tangled Title Fund and legal services, proactive outreach and education, data sharing and tracking and prevention strategies, including public education around estate planning and simple will preparation to reduce future tangled titles. Clear titles are the foundation of stable homeownership and a healthy housing market. Addressing this crisis is essential to preserving generational wealth, preventing displacement and keeping Philadelphia families in their homes. GPAR strongly supports this resolution and stands ready to be partners in solutions. Thank you all for welcoming us today.

Thank you. Thank you very much for your testimony. Please state your name for the record and proceed.

Hello. Amanda Colon-Smith. Good afternoon, Chairperson Gilmore Richardson and members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. My name is Amanda Colon-Smith and I'm an officer at the Pew Charitable Trust Philadelphia Research and Policy Initiative. At Pew, we conduct non-partisan, independent research and engage with policymakers and civic partners to address important challenges. Today I'd like to read a summary of the testimony we have already submitted to the committee. In August 2021, Pew released a detailed report on tangled titles, which is available on our website. Our key research findings, in addition a chart of tangled titles by Council District are included in the submitted testimony. Pew has found at least 10,000 Philadelphia households were impacted by tangled titles. Collectively, the affected homes are valued at more than $1.1 billion, a significant amount of family wealth potentially at risk. We also examined where tangled titles are found and saw that they affect some neighborhoods more than others. The incidence is highest in parts of North, Upper North, West and Southwest Philadelphia, areas that account for more than half of the city's tangled titles, but only a third of all residential properties. In recent years, the City of Philadelphia, along with the legal services community, launched the Tangled Title Fund, developed legislation to engage funeral homes and education and outreach, and actively promoted estate planning and the creation of more wills to try to prevent future tangles from being created. This collective effort has been noted by many communities around the country. Pew specifically has received direct inquiries from cities and states like Boston, Cincinnati, Detroit and Maryland, who all want to understand and replicate Pew's methodology to quantify this issue in their own communities. Many have also reached out, not just about the data, but to also better understand the interventions taken by the city. Pew has directly heard from organizations like Neighbor Works America, Fannie Mae and LISC, who want to spotlight the many local programs and efforts happening in Philadelphia. Pew is continuing to monitor this important issue and we are carefully examining future areas where we may be able to add value. We acknowledge that there are so many great organizations already engaged in this work. Thank you to the committee for the opportunity to share our research and recent updates on this important issue.

Thank you. Thank you very much for your work. Thank you to GPAR because we know you all probably see many clients that are struggling with this issue and we appreciate the feedback that you stated in your testimony. You gave five specific points on how we as a city can do a better job relative to continued interagency cooperation and coordination, expanding the Tangled Title Fund, which we talked about in the last panel, and continue proactive outreach and education data sharing, which is what we have displayed today based on the results from Philly Stat 360 relative to how we're doing on sort of resolving cases and then additional prevention strategies, which is what we're continuing to work on, not only with Commissioner Leonard and his team, but with all of our agencies and our partners and even through the funding with the H.O.M.E. Plan. So I just wanted to thank you all for that and also uplift the work of Pew, because I thank you all for doing that report. Really that report was a key piece, missing piece of the puzzle for so many of us who have been working on this issue. And once that report came out, it really shined a light on this issue in a way that I think helped folks to understand just how deep of an issue it is here in the city of Philadelphia, but also who it's impacting the most. And it was a disproportionate amount of Black and Brown Philadelphians who have been impacted by this issue, which is also what we have displayed on the chart there. And it's something that we want to continue to address because we know that the quickest way to wealth is through homeownership. And so, we want to continue to help those individuals. So I just thank you. I remember meeting you previously. I think we were on the panel with one of the national groups together who came to learn more about the work that we're doing here in Philadelphia on this issue. So we thank you very much and to the entire team at Pew. And at some point, we would love an updated report so that we can continue to report out the work that's happening across the city on this issue. So thank you all so much. Do we have any questions for this panel? (No response.)

All right. Well, seeing none, we thank you very much for joining us and we appreciate your patience. Thank you very, very much. Will the Clerk please call the panel -- prior to doing that, are there any further witnesses who would like to testify on Resolution No. 260029? Please approach the witness table. State your name for the record. (Witnesses approached witness table.)

Thank you very much for being here. Please state your name for the record and proceed with an abbreviated version of your testimony. Thank you.

Thank you, Councilmember. I'm Judy Berkman. We have a long history, Councilmember. I'm of counsel at Regional Housing Legal Services. I came to observe today, but I wanted to add a little history because you asked about the original funding of the Tangled Title Fund. In 1997 when the city was going to sell tax liens, I observed at the Community Legal Services office somebody saying -- that was when people -- there was a time when people could come in and pay their real estate taxes and interest and penalty would be exempt or excluded. And people were anxious to do that. They had old real estate tax liens, but I observed at a CLS office somebody who was not a tenant and it wasn't a mortgage foreclosure and they were sent away. And I had been at Community Legal Services in South Philly in the 1970s and I had resolved a lot of what has become known as tangled titles, so I knew that in Pennsylvania title passes at death. So people own their homes, but they don't have their deeds in their names. So as a result of the city tax lien program, I created the Tangled Title Program. I named it and I was aware of the original funding of it. And since no one has really defined it, I would like to briefly define tangled title, as I created the program back in the day. So there are three kinds. One kind is the most typical kind, and it's that you have the right -- you have title, but your name is not on the deed. And that's the typical situation where a family member has died. The second kind is unfortunately, very hard to resolve. Some people meaning to do estate planning through deed changes, they add somebody's name to the deed and then the relationship sours for some reason or they change their mind. And so, the second kind is someone else's name is on the deed, but you want to get that person's name off the deed and it's very difficult and challenging. When I used to do a lot of research at senior centers, there were a lot of people who had done this. And then the family member's situation changed and they were really upset. It interfered with them getting all the benefits they could get if they owned it solely in their name, and they were really upset that someone else's name was on the deed. And then the third kind is pretty easy to resolve, but it sometimes complicates the problem. And I call it, there may be garbage on the deed. It may be an old consumer discount company debt and they went out of business or they changed their name or someone sold it to you, sold the house to you and the original seller took the purchase money mortgage back and it's never been paid off and they never satisfied it. So those are the three kinds of tangled title that I defined. And then just very briefly, because I know you're in a hurry to move on with your afternoon, about the funding of the Tangled Title Program. So I named the program and created it. HUD had a program called Partners in Homeownership. And I'm not sure where the funding came, but in 2001, and it happened right after 911, we had a Home SMART Program, and the SMART was Start Managing Assets, Repairs and Title. And we were doing Train the Trainers, and then we were hoping to reach out through the city to do training. And then really the only legacy of that, that was all preventive or forward-looking, but the title part was in a way retroactive that people would -- we would try to resolve tangled title problems. And so, the only legacy of that prevention program was the Tangled Title Program. So I sort of operated it informally through Regional Housing Legal Services. And the first five tangled titles we resolved I think was in 2001 or 2002. We had a grant through the Philadelphia Corporation for the Aging from the Dolfinger-McMahon Foundation. And it was $5,000, and we resolved five people's tangled title for $1000 each, and it was for seniors. But really, I did a survey and people at the time felt this was a problem that only seniors had, but really it's a legacy program.

If a senior doesn't have a will, then it really is for everyone, not just seniors. So we sort of proved through having a survey that it was a wider problem. And then the first year the city funded the program I think was in 2002. It might have been 2003. And it was a total of $35,000. And $25,000 was from federal money, and that was to administer and operate the program. And 10,000 was from city general funds for the Tangled Title Fund itself, which helped individuals. And that was because at the time, and still to this day, if federal money comes in to help an individual, you would have to do lead-based paint assessments or remediation if found, and they didn't want the federal money to be used to help the individuals. So that's why the funds come from two city sources. But I don't want to take more time today, but for the first several years of the Tangled Title Program all the information about how many people were helped and what the funding was from the city, so I can provide that if you give me a deadline and I'm happy to do that.

Well, we thank you very much for your impromptu testimony, but also for you being here today. If you could please provide those documents to me. As the Chair of the Committee, I will disseminate that to the entire Law and Government Committee. And if you don't mind, I have to say this. The reason why I was in tears when I realized -- I heard the name Judy Berkman. I know the name, but I didn't see. You can't really see very well in the gallery. I need glasses. But this is a full circle moment for me. I came to this work because my parents passed away and left us with tangled titles. But Judy Berkman, Judy Berkman is the attorney -- she was my adoption attorney. Judy Berkman was my adoption attorney. I was adopted from birth and she was the attorney who worked with my parents to adopt me from birth. And when my parents passed away, I found all their legal paperwork and the attorney they worked with and I researched those individuals, and I recently found Judy Berkman to say thank you. And we met on the side of the road on Broad Street and I gave her flowers to say thank you. So thank you for being here today. (Applause.)

Thank you, Judy Berkman, for working with my parents. It was because of you that I had the best life. It's because of you that I sit here, because my parents weren't wealthy. They didn't have much. I found even notes where my mom was on payment plans to pay you and you worked with them.

I did.

I thank God for this opportunity to say thank you.

Thank you. Thank you so much. (Applause.)

I'd like to add that it was an honor to know your parents. I think it was Lorraine and James, and we had a mutual acquaintance and I was very happy to help with your adoption, but also your sister's, if I may add. So, yeah, it's an honor.

Thank you so much. And she still remembers that 42 years later. So thank you. Thank you so much. All right. So we'll now move forward. Thank you very, very much. But I'm so thankful to God that I had the opportunity to do that. Thank you. So now, we'll proceed with our next bill and resolution. Will the Clerk please call the panel -- before we recognize the first panel, I'll recognize my colleague Councilmember Gauthier, who's the sponsor of the next bill that we'll hear, Bill No. 251098 and Resolution No. 251108.

Thank you so much, Majority Leader. And that was such a beautiful moment, and maybe fitting because this next bill is about making sure that every child has the type of love and support you are able to find. Thank you so much, Majority Leader Gilmore Richardson and the rest of the members of the Law and Government Committee, for considering the Charter change to make the Office of the Youth Ombudsperson permanent. The mission of the Office of the Youth Ombudsperson is to promote the health, welfare, education, safety, well-being and reentry of Philadelphia youth placed in juvenile justice, child welfare or behavioral health residential care facilities. One question you might be asking is, if there is already a process set up by the Pennsylvania Department of Human Services where the state inspects and licenses facilities, why would we need a watchdog on the local level? My answer is that no one is going to care about our kids as much as we care about our kids. A Children's Rights and Education Law Center study found that between May 2010 and May 2018, children in Pennsylvania residential facilities were physically maltreated, 156 times, 114 times by staff, exposed to inappropriate sexual contact 73 times, 39 times by staff, and suffered at least 43 incidents of verbal maltreatment by staff. The report revealed that 44% of the facilities reviewed had repeated violations of physical or sexual maltreatment of children. It is not surprising that abuse persists, when in many cases juvenile justice placements require young people to report abuse to the same staff at the same placement facility which has been abusing them. How can young people possibly trust that process. At the same time when complaints are filed, they are rarely believed. An Inquirer review of the lawsuits filed against placements in the last 15 years found that state inspectors logged 7000 allegations of abuse made with the state in the last decade, most of which were not believed. The inspectors only substantiated 4% of those claims. Contrast that with the thoughtful approach of the Office of the Youth Ombudsperson. They develop materials and educate young people about their rights so young people know what they deserve. They build trusting relationships with young people and act as an independent entity to receive complaints. At the same time, they review facility policies and data to ensure that systems and policies set up staff and young people for success. And of course, they contact appropriate authorities to address urgent safety concerns. However, juvenile justice is only one of the systems that the Office of the Youth Ombudsperson monitors. They also work in group foster homes and inpatient psychiatric facilities that house young people. To share some anecdotes that I heard in my time developing legislation about young people in these systems, I heard reports that Muslim youth are not able to wear religiously- appropriate garb and are occasionally served haram ingredients such as pork. I heard stories of young people who do not speak English, having to rely on Google Translate to communicate their needs, including highly-sensitive issues related to health care because the facility is not complying with the requirement to provide translation services. And the witnesses we will hear from today will share more about the way that the Office of the Youth Ombudsperson has been working across all three systems. The data and the stories add up to one conclusion: We need an office dedicated to moderate monitoring the conditions in all youth congregate care facilities. We need the Office of the Youth Ombudsperson and we need it permanently. Finally, I want to spend a few minutes just laying out what this legislation is going to do. The Office of the Youth Ombudsperson was created by Executive Order No. 522 under the Kenney administration.

The Office of the Youth Ombudsperson has been operating since April 2023 and has already accomplished much, including surveying and training hundreds of youth and parents on their rights, making over 50 visits to facilities all over Pennsylvania, including inspecting several foster group homes as well as publishing several policy recommendations and findings. The legislation we are considering today takes the language of the Executive Order and translates it to the City Charter. Because this office has already been operating for three years, the legislation does not change their duties, powers or responsibilities. It simply creates predictability. It makes it easier for an existing, effective city office to keep doing the great work that they have been doing. The young people in congregate care facilities are Philadelphia's most vulnerable children. We owe them a thorough, effective process for evaluating the quality of care we are providing. And the Youth Ombudsperson's Office is a critical part of meeting that obligation. Thank you to Majority Leader Katherine Gilmore Richardson and members of the Law and Government committee for your consideration.

Thank you. Thank you so much, Councilmember Gauthier. Thank you for Resolution No. 251108 and Bill No. 251098. Will the Clerk please call the first panel we have to testify.

Michelle Lucarelli Beltran of Los Angeles County; Donna Cooper, Children's First; and Keisha Hudson of Defender Association of Philadelphia. (Witnesses approached witness table.)

Thank you. Thank you very, very much. First, I'd like to offer my sincere gratitude and appreciation to Michelle and to her team for joining us here in Philadelphia. We're both the city and the county, but we appreciate you being here. We certainly appreciate your patience. We know that you have lots of work to do in Los Angeles, California, but we appreciate you being here. So you can please state your name for the record and proceed with your testimony.

Absolutely. Good morning, everyone, and thank you for having me today. My name is Michelle Lucarelli-Beltran. Do you need me to spell it for the record or you see it on the screen?

We have it here as part of our agenda and on the witness list. Thank you very, very much.

Okay. Great. So I'm the Los Angeles County Ombudsperson for Youth and Congregate Care Settings. Our office was originally established by our Los Angeles County Board of Supervisors in 1998 after a grand jury report made findings and recommendations about the experiences of youth in foster care placed in group homes. Since inception, our office has been housed in the Auditor Controller, an order to operate independently from the Department of Children and Family Services. In addition, our office was recently expanded by our Board to also have oversight over youth in transitional housing settings, and we are actively working to expand and serve that population of youth in foster care as well. In addition to serving as the Ombudsperson, I also sit on the Board of Directors for the United States Ombudsman Association or USOA. As such, I find it pertinent to share with you all the pillars of our ombuds profession of independence, confidentiality, a credible review process and impartiality. While there are many general ombuds offices, most, if not all of our child welfare ombuds offices, are also charged with being advocates. The work of being an ombudsperson and advocate for youth in foster care, especially those placed in facilities, is crucial, as many are often not believed when they share their experiences with others. Our office and Tracy's take the position of believing youth and following up on their concerns to improve their experiences in care. Recently during an interview, I was asked what offices across the country we and other child welfare ombuds look to as strong examples of excellent ombuds practice. I shared about a couple of our longstanding offices and then shifted to share that there were a couple of newer ones who had only been around two to three years, but that I greatly admire and look to in this work. Tracy and her staff are one of those offices. They have burst into the ombuds world as fierce advocates for youth. I am always excited to partner and collaborate with her, as we are the only offices specifically serving youth at the local level and placed in facilities. We are uniquely situated as local government ombuds with jurisdiction over youth governed by state law. However, this unique position is critical in a boots-on-the-ground approach to serving the youth. Both of our offices are acutely aware of the issues impacting youth in our jurisdictions because we are regularly in person with them at their placements and other events as well as in meetings with our local partners. She and I are also active participants in a subgroup of ombuds who visit with youth in person, who come together to discuss strategies and barriers for conducting such outreach. While in Philadelphia and Los Angeles, it may seem like regular practice that the ombuds and their staff are visiting placement sites in person, but our offices are actually in the minority, as very few other offices across the country conduct such visits. It is vital to meet youth where they're at, and Philadelphia's office does just that. In fact, I admire Tracy's work so much that when I learned of a vacancy on our USOA Board recently, I informed her that I would like to nominate her to the position. I also want to share that in California we have a state ombuds in addition to many local jurisdiction ombuds. And while our state ombuds serves all youth in care and our offices collaborate regularly, we have the local level knowledge and partnerships to serve youth in Los Angeles County that is vital to resolving the issues impacting them. This is true of Philadelphia's youth ombudsperson as well. And no matter if Pennsylvania ever establishes a statewide child welfare ombudsperson, the value of Philadelphia's local-level youth ombudsperson is irreplaceable. This work is vital and also often underfunded and resourced.

While I know budgets across the country are tight, I urge you to appropriately fund and staff your Philadelphia office so that it can fully operationalize its purpose and service to youth. Our office only has three full-time permanent staff to do this work without the current expansion I mentioned above. 3 million is almost entirely staffing costs, and our costs would be even higher if we did not utilize the foster youth Bill of Rights materials printed by our state ombuds office who is charged to do so by state law. It is for these reasons that I urge you all to memorialize the permanency of Philadelphia's youth ombuds office. They are a vital resource to youth and care and to ensuring improved experiences for them.

Thank you. Thank you very, very much for your testimony. I want to pause there for a moment and recognize any colleagues for questions for Michelle? (No response.)

Okay. Any questions for this witness?

Hi. I just want to say thank you for your work. Just want to say I appreciate you and what you're doing in Los Angeles. And just one quick question, Chair. Thank you. I wanted to ask -- and that was my fault. I shouldn't have waited. But I wanted to ask you is there a way -- when you offer solutions to Los Angeles County, are they listening? Are things changing, because otherwise you're just going to be advocating? So are they listening? Are things changing where you're offering solutions?

Yes. Actually, we work really closely with our Board of Supervisors. And I'll just say for context, LA County's child welfare system is the largest in the country so change takes time. And so, there are some things that we're able to get changed very quickly. For instance, policy updates, the things in writing, requirements and whatnot and then the practice change and accountability mechanisms are what follow, and we have seen movement in that as well. So for instance, our office conducted a survey with youth. They weren't even receiving their foster youth Bill of Rights, which is required by law in California, but DTFS's policy was outdated, not even directing their staff to comply with the law. So we got their policy updated and then we also got them to virtually do an intro training for all their staff that hadn't even been required to train on the rights. And now, we'll be implementing with a youth co-trainer an inperson all-day training on how to have these developmentally appropriate conversations with youth about their rights. So that's just one example of how we were able to point out an issue that we came across, make recommendations and then have movement. Sometimes DTFS takes action on their own when we point things out, and other times we've had to lean on partners or our Board of Supervisors to help move that needle forward. But there's that and other examples that I can share, but I know we're already behind on time in how we're able to move things forward.

Thank you, Chairman -- Chairwoman.

Thank you. Thank you very much, Councilmember Phillips. Seeing no additional questions for this witness, Michelle, we thank you very much for joining us all the way from Los Angeles County. We thank you for the work that you're doing with your youth in your city and in your county. Thank you so much.

Yes. Thank you all so much.

Excellent. Thank you so much. We will now hear from the next witnesses who have already approached the witness table and Donna Cooper, Executive Director of Children First, who Councilman Phillips just honored with a resolution relative to your upcoming retirement. Thank you very much, Councilmember Landau. Kudos and congratulations to you. And also, Keisha Hudson, Chief Defender from the Defenders Association of Philadelphia. State your names for the record and proceed with your testimony.

Thank you. I'm Donna Cooper. I'm the Executive Director of Children First. And first of all, I want to say the tangled title hearing was spectacular and the work is amazing, and then the full circle moment just makes everything so real and it makes this town a small town where we can work together to get things done. So that was very indicative. I was very educated by it. And also, I just want to say to Councilwoman Gauthier, I'm so sorry, I can see your hand is killing you and that you're still here to fight to make sure we protect our children is important. You know, we're having this hearing today in the Law and Government Committee at a time where America is really questioning about whether we actually believe victims. The Epstein files really bring to light a breakdown in our systems where left alone in normal circumstances, agencies and law enforcement without additional layers of protection seem to be having a difficult time doing their job. And I think that the Councilwoman's opening laid out the case for this. In your prior discussion on tangled title, there was a discussion about the role of the state and whether state laws could be passed to help you, and there's great movement to get something out of the House. I will tell you that if we in Philadelphia wait for the Pennsylvania legislature to act on an ombudsperson for children, we will be waiting until our grandchildren grow up. For 30 years, people have been trying to get the state to enact an ombudsperson for children and we can't look to Pennsylvania as their protection. And in the last administration as you know, as the Councilwoman pointed out, an executive order created the Ombuds Office. And I know that you've received lots of information about why that happened. And now, it's time to make that permanent, especially since we know we can't rely on the state to do that. I want to tell you a couple other facts in addition to what the Councilwoman laid out, which I thought, you know, need we say more. Since 2024, 60 lawsuits have been filed on behalf of over 67 children who were in residential facilities in PA alleging physical and sexual abuse. We know that one Inquirer story exposed an incident at which a teen was tackled and head-butted by the staff of the agency. And last November, another agency was cited for a report of abuse after a staff member shoved a child's face in a table. In this room in the first hearings on this, children from Delaware County came and talked about when they were thirsty, they were told by the staff, go ahead and drink from the toilet. So -- yeah. This stuff is real and we depend on a dispersed system of state agencies to protect these children and they can't do a good job, because they have limited resources and because the system is not independent. Who the children report abuse to are the people in the agencies that are abusing them. If they get to the state and report it, the state agency staff are going to investigate the same people they've been working with for the last years. And 15 so, when we think about Watch Tower 16 or the new Watch Tower, which was 17 Glen Mills, what was exposed was 18 that the state staff who were 19 responding to the incidents of 20 abuse of children in Philadelphia were going down and talking with people that they had collegial relationships for years. We got into this work because being institutionalized affects Black and Hispanic children more than other kids. 84% of the kids from Philly in child welfare congregate care agencies and 95% of the kids sent to jails or prisons for juvenile justice offenses are Black or Hispanic. This is happening to our children of color, and we're so proud that Philadelphia has the Office of Youth Ombudsperson, and what great work we're doing as described.

And to the question that you asked, Councilman, about do things change, in fact -- and certainly Tracy can speak to this directly -- our office works in partnership with the City Department of Human Services, the Office of Youth Ombudsperson. And what they found after evaluating complaints from kids at the juvenile detention center, the PJJSC were about seclusion, and you remember the articles about seclusion. And the Department of Ombudsperson wrote a report for the department. The department reviewed that and put an action plan together. That's possible because we're all local and we have internal accountability here. And if people don't respond to each other, just as was explained in Los Angeles, we're small enough that we can make the machinations work. And so, we really do need and look to you at City Council to support the bill, to make an Office of Youth Ombudsperson permanent in the Charter so that it's independent from political changes like one mayor to another, it's trusted and accessible and continuously available to youth and families. It's an early identification system of systemic problems before they escalate three complaints in a facility. Hey, we got a problem, bring it right up to the attention of CBH, Department of Behavioral Health and Intellectual Disabilities or Philadelphia DHS and greater accountability for publicly-funded placements. We're very pleased that the Department of Human Services sees the benefit of this office. We're grateful for your time today and we will do all we can to help you put this on the Charter and have it passed with a very strong vote of the citizens. Thank you. CHIEF DEFENDER HUDSON: Good afternoon. My name is Keisha Hudson, Chief Defender at the Defender Association of Philadelphia. I would like to thank Councilmember Gauthier, Madam Chair Gilmore Richardson, and members of the Committee on Law and Government for inviting me to speak today on Resolution 251108, providing for an amendment to the Philadelphia Home Rule Charter to create an Office of the Youth Ombudsperson. As you know, our office represents kids in delinquency and dependency proceedings as well as young people who are facing civil commitment under the Mental Health Procedures Act. Last year, what this looked like in numbers was that we represented 3567 individual children in hearings. 88% of our dependency clients and 95% of our youth in delinquency are children of color. And while we strive to keep our youth safely in their homes and with their families or with kin, in their schools and communities, it's our kids that are filling placement beds that you hear about. And some of the children are placed in facilities that are far from home, out of state, as far as Texas, and these places look very, very different from the city of Philadelphia. And more importantly, they're staffed by people who look very, very different from the citizens of Philadelphia. It is from this experience that I voice my strong support for enshrining an Office of the Youth Ombudspeople in the City Charter. We work every day with children who are navigating very complex and opaque systems of care, supervision and confinement. To be clear, our representation in dependency or delinquency does not end when the child is placed outside of the home. Our representation includes staying with the youth for the entire case through review hearings where judges assess the necessity of their continued placement and if their needs are being met. Children frequently impacted by profound and distressing life events, often with very complex needs, and their families struggle to have their concerns heard, access clear information and ensure accountability for child service providers. The experiences and concerns of these young people and their families are unique and diverse and range from programming, access to meals, to reports of physical and sexual abuse. To be clear, that is not a situation that is unique to Philadelphia.

It is widespread systemic issues. There have been state and federal lawsuits that are continued to be filed across the Commonwealth by dozens of people alleging physical and sexual abuse threats and neglect across multiple youth detention and residential facilities. The unfortunate reality is that placing vulnerable youth in residential facilities, often far from their home, presents inherent risks. Amending the Charter will not be able to prevent every incident. No system can. But what it can do is reduce how often the harm occurs, how long it goes unnoticed and how many young people are affected. The independent Office of the Youth Ombudspeople will provide critical oversight and advocacy for children and families and assist in the ongoing evaluation of the service delivery system with an eye toward improving outcomes for the children we serve. By establishing clear authority for investigation, oversight, access to information and community education, the resolution creates an Office of the Youth Ombudspeople that is equipped to surface systemic problems and advocate effectively for youth and families. These duties go beyond simple administrative functions, rather they provide an independent, accessible and accountable office for children and families who will feel powerless in systems that impact their lives. Creating this office means the city will have enshrined an office that exists only for the children we serve, one that has independence to shine light on systemic problems and has access to decision-makers to advocate for meaningful change. Ultimately, a chartered city agency like this strengthens transparency, improves outcomes and builds trust in public systems. For these reasons, my office strongly supports the creation of an Office of the Youth Ombudspeople in the City Charter. And I ask you to support this resolution and I thank you for taking this important step in submitting this question to the voters. Thank you again for including the perspective of the Defender Association of Philadelphia.

Thank you. Thank you both for your testimony and also for your patience today, and that goes for each of the panels that we'll hear from on the next two panels. Are there any questions for these witnesses? (No response.)

Seeing none from the committee, the Chair recognizes Councilmember Gauthier.

Thank you, Madam Chair. This question is for both of you. But first, thank you for your testimony and your work. You touched on this, but can you expound in a little more detail on how the quality of care and services in congregate psychiatric care settings and group foster homes would benefit from or have benefited from the Youth Ombudsperson's Office? CHIEF DEFENDER HUDSON: I'm happy to answer that question. I think I am often before you in individual meetings and during budget season to talk about staffing and resources. So our kids are placed all over, as I said before, all over the Commonwealth, and we simply do not have the capacity of staffing to see them as often as would be ideal to make sure that we are finding out exactly how their placement is going. We do see them very often in preparation for the review hearings that we have to do. Our kids will express issues or concerns again from everything related to their care, how they're being disciplined, their education or lack thereof, programming or lack thereof, to physical and sexual abuse. We don't have the capacity to investigate and elevate those issues. And a lot of times, those are issues that need to be elevated in a civil context, and we do not do civil impact litigation in that vein. So having the Office of the Youth Ombudspeople is important for not just our clients and our youth, but also their families to be able to elevate concerns. Frequently our children may tell their parents or a trusted kin who visits them something that they may not share with their lawyer, their public defender or the social worker. And so, again having families be educated and have access to this independent agency will ensure that every issue that's been elevated, whether it's through us, the Defenders, or through the kids themselves or through families, that there is an entity that is able to actually take on independent investigations. And we look forward to continuing to work with Tracy. I wanted to just note for the record again that the process does need to be confidential to protect our clients, juvenile cases, as it winds its way through the system. But we really want to ensure that Tracy and her team can hear the concerns, protect the confidentiality of the concerns, but also see the issues systemically to be able to do the full investigation that they need to do and do it more quickly, and ensure again that justice and accountability is brought forth.

Let me add two specifics on that. So the first thing is that when the state is investigating a case of abuse in a facility, to the extent that it's gotten all the way up there, they investigate your case and then they investigate your case and your case, and it could all be at the same facility, but there are three different people looking into things and nobody's going, oh my, what's happening at Glen Mills, because there's nobody looking for patterns. And so, one of the things that the office when it was created and always talked about is we need somebody looking at data and understanding where investigations are going on. So if there are providers that the Commonwealth or the city for its sake, because it's paying these providers, needs to know has a pattern going on of complaints, somebody's connecting the dots. That's the first thing. The second is that -- you're not going to believe this. This is so crazy, but only government could be this crazy, right. So if I was placed in Glen Mills and I was from Montgomery County and I was abused, and maybe somebody was placed from Bucks County at Glen Mills and was abused, Philadelphia County would not know about that because a Philadelphia County kid isn't in the complaint chain and we could still be sending children there. And so, one of the things that the Ombudsperson Office can do, at least as it relates to hearing about things from kids because kids can call them independently, they can say, I'm scared, three people have been raped here and the Ombuds Office can call Philly DHS and say, hey, I'm getting these calls. They won't have gotten that information from the state. Now that should be changed. And of course, we're trying to change that. But the process by which Philly DHS gets enough information to know if there's a pattern and/or to know if there's an emerging problem is augmented by having the office. I'll just add that to possible. But I also think the other thing is that the city pays behavioral health providers, the city pays congregate care providers. It is not the city's responsibility to license them and ensure they're in compliance with the law. So in many ways -- I mean, while Philadelphia DHS is doing everything it can to make sure children are being taken care of, they are at the will of the state. So this isn't, in my mind, an added piece of protection for the taxpayers and the citizens because it's a second set of eyes and ears that has different analysis of the data, not in an itemized case level.

Thank you so much for your testimony today and thanks to you both for your partnership on this.

Thank you. CHIEF DEFENDER HUDSON: Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you very, very much. We appreciate both of you. Thank you so much. Will the Clerk please call the next panel to testify.

Will Geneva Williams, Jasmine Banks and Bree Hood, please approach. (Witnesses approached witness table.)

Thank you for your patience. Thank you for being here. We appreciate you. Please state your name for the record and proceed with an abbreviated version of your testimony.

Good afternoon.

Please speak right into the mic for the stenographer. Thank you so much.

Okay. Good afternoon. My name is Geneva Williams. I am a parent advocate and I'm glad to be here. Thank you for the invitation. This seat is not for short people.

Just introducing yourself?

Pardon me. Yes, you can state your name for the record and proceed with your testimony. You have testimony, correct, Ms. Geneva?