COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC HEARING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC PROPERTY - - - Room 696, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Thursday, May 29, 2003 1:45 p.m. - - - BILLS 030200, 030216, 030245, 030246, 030253, 030292, 030332, 030353, 030370, 030379, 030392. - - - PRESENT: COUNCILMAN JAMES KENNEY, Chair COUNCILMAN MICHAEL NUTTER COUNCILWOMAN JANNIE BLACKWELL COUNCILMAN DARRELL CLARKE COUNCILWOMAN BLONDELL REYNOLDS BROWN COUNCILWOMAN DONNA REED MILLER - - - V A R A L L O, INCORPORATED LITIGATION SUPPORT SERVICES 1835 Market Street, Suite 600 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 215.561.2220 215.567.2670 I N D E X BILL 030246 PAGE VINCENT CARNUCCIO ............................ BILL 030292 ANITA ROBINSON HUNT .......................... BILL 030245 JIM TIANO, Police Department.................. EDWARD CHIODETTI, Police Department .......... FRANK THOMPSON, Philadelphia Vietnam Veterans Memorial ....................... 28 LARRY ZIPF, BOMA ............................. 29 WILLIAM CRITICOS, One & Two Commerce Square... 37 DON HAAS, Bell Atlantic Tower ................ 38 RICHARD EVANS, Penn Center ................ 43 KATHLEEN WILKINS ............................. 46 10 EILEEN O'BRIEN, Department of Finance ........ 51 JOSHUA NIMS .................................. 53 11 BRIAN WINTERS ................................ 68 STEVEN BRODY, of Title 10 Skate Park ......... 77 BILL 030370 ANDRES PEREZ, Commissioner, Public Property .. 78 ALBA MARTINEZ, Commissioner, Department of Human Services .......................... 79 RICHARD TUSTIN, Capital Program Office ....... 84 BILL NO. 030216 CHARLES ISDELL, Director of Aviation ......... 87 HERBERT WETZEL, Redevelopment Authority....... 93 STEVEN ENGELMYER, ESQ. ....................... 98 MARTIN GREGORSKI, City Planning Commission .. 103 BILL 030332 THOMAS DALFO, PAID and PIDC ................. 105 RICHARD DEMARCO, ESQ. ....................... 107 ANDRES PEREZ, Commissioner, Public Property.. 108 BILL 030379 ANDRES PEREZ, Commissioner, Public Property.. 109 CAROLYN WALLACE, Pa. Environmental Council... 110 MARTIN GREGORSKI, City Planning Commission .. 114 BILL 030200 ANDRES PEREZ, Commissioner, Public Property.. 116 HENRY SCHWARTZ, Law Department .............. 117 DAN SHAW, Law Department .................... 119 BILL 030353 ANDRES PEREZ, Commissioner, Public Property.. 120 3 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030246
Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. The Council Committee on Public Property and Public Works is now in session. We will hear a number of Bills today. The first Bill is Bill No. 030246, which is an Ordinance naming and designating the Southwark Branch of the Free Library of Philadelphia located at 932 South Seventh Street as the Charles Santore Branch of the Free Library of Philadelphia. Mr. Carnuccio, please. Please come forward. Is there anyone here from the Administration to testify on this Bill? (No response.)
Vincent Carnuccio. First, I'd like to thank Councilmembers for introducing this Bill. I had a petition to rename Southwark Branch of Philadelphia, Seventh and Carpenter as the Charles Santore Public Library by the City has public recognition for over 70 years of civic, labor and political service to the community by Mr. Santore. 4 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030246 I have 2,202 signatures signed on this. I have letters today from Susan Haney, Second Ward Republican Ward Leader; Burhman Smith, former President of Local 696 AFSCME; and John Gallagher, vice president of Ring One Veterans Boxing Association. To save the Council's time, I have these letters here which I would like to hand out to each one.
Will the Sergeant-at-Arms please take the letters. We'll make sure they're distributed to everyone .
Actually, it would be easier if we just submitted the letters for the stenographer. If you want to read part of one, that will be fine.
We're all supportive of this, so you don't have to convince anybody.
I sealed them things up, and in there I had something from Ring One Magazine. That wouldn't be on the agenda today. 5 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030292 Thank you.
Thank you very much. Anyone else to testify on this Bill? (No response.)
Seeing none, we'll now move to Bill No. 030292, an Ordinance naming and designating the gymnasium of the Lonnie Young Recreation Center at 1100 east Chelten Avenue as the David P. Richardson, Jr., Memorial Gymnasium. Is there anyone to testify on this Bill? Please come forward. Good afternoon. Please identify yourself for the record.
Good afternoon. My name is Anita Robinson Hunt. I am a community organizer in the 12th Ward, 1 through 6 Division; committee person of the 12th, 12-2; and also Director of the Northwest Community Development Corporation sitting on the Board of Lonnie Young Recreation Center Advisory Board; and also a member of the Citywide Police Advisory Board. The community and friends of the late honorable David P. Richardson, Jr., have chosen to keep the legacy of our late, dedicated civic servant 6 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030292 alive by naming the newly-built gym at the Lonnie Young Recreation Center in his honor. The David P. Richardson, Jr., was a life-long resident of the Germantown community. He was elected in 1973 to the House of Representatives of the 201st Legislative District. He was reelected to consecutive terms. He was a community 9 activist, served four years as the President of the 10 National Black Caucus of State Legislators, a member 11 of the Lonnie Young Recreation Advisory Board until his demise. He also served on numerous boards served as the chairman of the house and Welfare Committee which has jurisdiction over programs affecting women, children, the elderly, handicapped, disabled, and homeless Pennsylvanians. It would take me several hours naming all of his accomplishments. In 1978, he was instrumental in having the East Germantown Senior Building built as an annex to the Lonnie Young Recreation Center. He also had a community picnic for 22 years for the Germantown community. The day of his 23 passing, he was at Lonnie Young Recreation Center 24 with his committee preparing for the 25th annual picnic. 7 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030292 He also fought diligently to get the funds for a new Lonnie Young Recreation Center to be built. Finally had the funding in place for the construction to start but died before he could see his dream come alive. Thanks to the Honorable Councilwoman Donna Reed Miller and predecessor State Representative John Meyers, David's dream finally came true. Mr. Richardson died while serving as a State Legislative Representative on August 18, 1995, and was honored by people all over the world. By dedicating this gym in the name of the late Honorable David P. Richardson, Jr., we will be honoring the life work and importance of community development and supporting the needs of our youth that this great pioneer died fighting for. Thank you.
Thank you very much for your testimony. Dave was a great man. Councilwoman Blackwell.
Thank you. As many of you know, Lucien served with Dave Richardson and I worked with the Governor in Harrisburg during 8 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 that time so in effect worked with Dave as well. And so we are absolutely honored to honor him. And it is certainly long overdue. Thank you.
Thank you very much. Is there anyone else to testify on this Bill? (No response.)
Seeing none, we will now move to Bill No. 030245, an Ordinance amending Title 10 of the Philadelphia Code relating to regulation of individual conduct and activity by amending Section 10-610 entitled "Skateboarding on Public Property" and section 10-1608 entitled "Hearings," to prohibited additional conduct, revise enforcement procedures, and make certain technical amendments, all under certain terms and conditions. The Chair recognizes Chief Inspector Tiano and Captain Chiodetti. The Chair recognizes, prior to that, Councilman Nutter for remarks.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'll be brief. Mr. Chairman, this matter primarily comes to us as a result of a number of meetings and requests from property owners, large 9 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 building owners almost all of whom are members of the organization called BOMA, Building Owners and Managers Association. Their concerns are the damage to their private property which is fully accessible to the public. And the primary purpose of this Bill 7 is to deal with that particular issue, where the open space that the public travels through but is technically owned by private property owners, their concern is is that it continues to be somewhat unprotected, not only from damage from skateboards, but also roller blades and bicycles. As I've stated previously on this particular matter, I am certainly not against any of the appropriate uses of these items, but the concern for property damage, especially for private property owners, does compel me to put this measure forward, listen to the testimony, and see if we can further protect these large property owners who are significant taxpayers in our City from this kind of damage to their private property. So I appreciate the opportunity, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you very much. Councilmember Blackwell. 10 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245
Thank you very much. Certainly, I did not recognize our Captain, not in uniform, forgive me. Bit it's good to see both of you. I absolutely believe that it is the responsibility of legislators to try to come up with positive legislation. I don't generally support the tone of negative legislation. I don't believe that we should stop -- and I'm sure my colleague agrees. I don't believe that we should prohibit people using roller blades or bicycles. I didn't support some of the stuff that we've done in the past dealing with quality-of-life issues. And I don't support not being able to use roller blades or bicycles as well as folks not being able to skateboard. I believe that the City is working with those skateboarders to try to find a site and that the City, the Administration, has for sometime. But it's just that the whole issue -- you know, in America there's a place for everybody. We may have to try to find out where that should be, and I think that's the issue. The rub is where we can find a place to -- we want to respect homeowners and business owners, and we want to respect the rights of young people who certainly also want to 11 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 ride their bikes or roller blade or skateboard. So I think that's the rub. That comes down to the issue, where it works, not the activity it itself. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you very much. Could you identify yourself for the record and proceed? CHIEF INSPECTOR TIANO: Chief Inspector Jim Tiano from the Community Affairs Bureau. I had been the Commanding Officer of Central Police Division, and before that the Commanding Officer of 9th District for about 13 years in Central Division. Sp I was asked here to basically by the BOMA Organization and the City Police Department to add my expertise. I think you'll see the gallery is full of building owners and managers from throughout the high-rise buildings in Center City. The problem is a lot of damage is caused in the private sector as well as we know it was caused in John F. Kennedy Plaza, AKA, Love Park. Thousands and thousands of dollars. Another factor that we don't touch on and I had the opportunity to talk to many seniors 12 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 that would call, the seniors that walk through there are paying their water bills and different utilities when they're accosted by someone in mid-air on a skateboard. It's a frightening, frightening experience for seniors. We have been very fortunate we didn't have many seniors with broken hips and things like that with the youth jumping up and down off the different plateaus. When met recently with the BOMA Organization, that's again the Building Owners Manager's Association, and they had much concern about the damages to several buildings. I know there's people in this Chambers who would like to testify about the damages and what's occurred at their buildings. So I won't touch on that. I think that's up to them to come up and testify about the thousands of dollars worth of damage being done by skateboarders. When we do enforce skateboarders, we were doing it mostly in John F. Kennedy Plaza, and that was done by the Concourse Unit under captain Edward Giodetti's command and we would issue the code violation notice. And under the new ordinance 25 that was passed a couple years ago, we were able to 13 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 take the skateboarders and put them on a property receipt. The problem with that is we displace the skateboarders then to the private sector where they would go to Bell Atlantic Building and many of the buildings on Market Street. So we're here today -- when I say "we're here," I'm here with the building owners and the managers and people that are concerned about skateboarding in Center City, looking for some relief from Council.
Any questions for Chief Inspector Tiano? Councilman Nutter.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chief inspector Tiano, your testimony is that the Department has had some success in deterring the illegal and sometimes destructive activity, it appears that has also required virtual around-the-clock protection of some sites. Is it also your understanding that -- and you've alluded to it on a couple of occasion -- there have been a number of problems for private property owners who have large or open public plazas, they're not public 14 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 property but they're accessible by public. CHIEF INSPECTOR TIANO: We have many members in this gallery that would love to testify about their respective buildings and the damages incurred; some in thousands and thousands of dollars. When I did mention earlier, Councilman, about the enforcement, the problem with the enforcement is we can't put one or two police officers there to address this problem. When we do it, we need four to six officers. And many times we have to expand our quality-of-life funds that we get from the federal government. And it's kind of a shame to use that kind of money for that. But we cannot enforce it with one police officer because they run right out the park at the high rate of speed on them skateboards. So I would say roughly -- and you can correct me, Captain -- over a thousand code violation notices. CAPTAIN CHIODETTI: Yes.
Captain, could you please identify yourself for the record? CAPTAIN CHIODETTI: Yes, Captain Edward Chiodetti, Commanding Officer, Center City District, 15 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 formerly of the Concourse Unit. And the Chief is correct, we've issued thousands of code violation notices for skateboarding in Love park and Dilworth Plaza exclusively.
What happens to them once they're issued? What's the process? CAPTAIN CHIODETTI: Originally when we first started this, because of complaints from members of city government and private citizens, the officer would take the information, write it down on what we call an incident report, and turn it into our officer who is trained in the issuance of code violation notices. That's probably the equivalent of a parking ticket. At that point, the person that received the violation was required to pay a fine of $25. Apparently, that had little impact or success because the skateboarding continued. As the Chief alluded to, in order to try to prevent this from continuing, we had to actually put together strategies to try to catch the skateboarders in numbers, particularly on weekends when they would come from all parts of the State, I would say, certainly Bucks County, Montgomery County, and surrounding areas of the City to skateboard in Love 16 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 Park for the most part, JFK Plaza Love Park. We had to actually put together these strategies in order to catch them to issue the violations. Again, the penalty was to issue this summons. And whether they paid for it or not, that was really up to them, I guess. We put in some stricter enforcement, the Bill that was introduced two years ago where it gave us the ability to confiscate the skateboards. Again, the rules were applied that if we witness them skateboarding, the police officer on the site could issue the summons and confiscate the skateboard. That was put into play. It required, instead of having one officer trained in the issuance of skateboards, I had to train the whole unit to enable them to have the ability to issue these citations.
Excuse me. This is Councilman Nutter's line of questioning. If you could flush it out a little bit. Did the officers take the boards or no? CAPTAIN CHIODETTI: Yes.
What was the -- CAPTAIN CHIODETTI: We had the ability 17 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 to confiscate the boards. However, they could pay a $25 fine and the board had to be returned. It wasn't permanent. And in some cases, we didn't even finish the paperwork, and they would show up at our headquarters with their receipt and we had to return the board. In some instances, they stayed there for a couple weeks and they would return. But almost every board was returned to the owner, with the exception of a few. That was hundreds of boards over the last couple of years.
Out of that, and again, out of some of the meetings that we've had, a discussion arose around the issue of seeking to increase the fine to then use as a further deterrent. For some people, $25, similar to some of the other violations, they might figure it's just the cost of enjoyment for that particular day. And there were suggestions that the fine be increased actually my recollection is of more than $75, but I think for the moment we agreed that it was somewhat more reasonable to have it at the new number of $75. But your testimony seems to indicate that $25 was almost being laughed at or so immediately responded to that it was of no deterrence whatsoever. Is that 18 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 true? CAPTAIN CHIODETTI: Well $25 was absolutely no deterrence at all. It's listed up to $300. And I really don't know how that works. No 6 one has ever been fined over --
That's if you actually go to court and they go through the whole process. The judge could ultimately -- if you have an actual hearing, the judge could take you all the way up to that number. That's actually the limit for all violations of the Philadelphia Code, not just this particular violation. CAPTAIN CHIODETTI: To my knowledge, the standard price is $25, that's what they're fined. And that's if they're fined. I believe that not everyone's fined. But that's what we were dealing with. From time to time, depending on the number of complaints that would come in and, I guess, the time of the year, like now when skateboarding is most prevalent, we had to put basically a full court press out there.
Tell us about your experience with privately owned property open to the 19 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 public. What's that experience been? CAPTAIN CHIODETTI: Well, to be honest with you, Mr. Nutter, I just realized not too long ago that because of the stringent policing in JFK Plaza that a lot of these skateboarders who normally probably at one time would have skated in Love Park now moved into some of the plazas in these office buildings in Center City. I didn't realize it until I started attending the BOMA meetings and I would hear them complain about it. They themselves would say, "Since they can't skate in Love Park anymore since the renovations, now they're moving into our buildings." That's when I really learned of it. And I didn't realize it was that much or that serious.
Let me ask one last question just for the record. Captain and Chief Inspector, do you have any personal animus, any personal moral beliefs or convictions against the activities of either skateboarding, roller blading, or bicycles in general? Or is your role as police officers to enforce the law and prevent property damage and vandalism? 20 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 CHIEF INSPECTOR TIANO: Not in all. In fact, I started the in-line town watch skates when I was captain in the 9th District. I'm very close to that group.
You took a tumble, too, I think, didn't you? CHIEF INSPECTOR TIANO: Yes, I did. On live TV. Thanks for recognizing that. (Laughter.)
For which Councilman Kenney will not let you forget, right? And you haven't been on the roller blades since? CHIEF INSPECTOR TIANO: No, I haven't. I'm an admirer of them. On a serious note, we do attend a lot of business meetings. And the business community has asked for relief. I know the Bell Atlantic Building, the manager Bob Martin -- I don't know if he's in the court room -- he had a load of damage. We put a detail there on a Saturday or Bell Atlantic would hire off-duty officers. We just had a BOMA meeting a few weeks ago where several members brought staggering amounts of damage to our attention and asked for some kind of relief. That's 21 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 why we're here, basically to support the business community. And of course, like I said before, I do have a fear for senior citizens because I've received calls that they're scared to death when one of them skates come at them. We're just lucky nobody was hurt seriously that way.
Thank you very much. I think part of the problem with this controversy is it is a younger person's activity, it is a lot of vibrancy and a lot of excitement and people are very fond of it and it's very popular nationwide. I think part of the problem is trying to balance that with the safety of people. I mean, I know myself traversing through an area where they're doing it, I really need to be on my guard as to whether or a board slips away, whether somebody comes at you or you don't really see, your vision is blocked and somebody comes flying over a ramp or a railing, it really does keep you on your guard. And I also know people that have had serious ankle injuries as a result of the board 22 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 slipping out off a trick winding whacking somebody in the ankle. It's really a shame that we can't find a way to coexist. I do think the public safety probably should come first. I know myself, just from personal experience -- I have nothing against the young people. I think they're pretty artistic and pretty athletic. It's just I don't really want to get one of those boards stuck in my neck. That's part what we were all trying to figure out, a way to balance people's right to enjoy public space both from an athletic and an entertaining side, but also from a safety side, too. So I know that's a very difficult issue that Councilman Nutter's been wrestling with and all of us have been wrestling with. Hopefully, we'll make the right decision. Any other questions for these witnesses? CHIEF INSPECTOR TIANO: Just let me close with this: When they opened up the skateboarding park, our officers were giving out hundreds of pamphlets telling the youngsters where to go where the City has provided them a place to go. So we were giving them out for about 30 to 45 days before we even started enforcement. But of 23 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 course, that's not where they wanted to be. I had a kid with a German accent stop me one Saturday. He came from Germany to skateboard here. It was such big deal because this was featured in this magazine. This is a big thing to come here and say he skateboarded in that JFK Plaza.
I mean, Councilman Kenney is absolutely correct, and I think at times my position on this has either slightly obscured or overwhelmed by the larger issue. I think it is an incredibly athletic sport. It is a sport. It is growing across this country, if not throughout the world, and that the City should support it and help promote it. We had the X-Games here two years in a row not too long ago, and I fully support the use of sports equipment at the appropriate location, at locations for which that activity -- for what the place was built for. You generally play basketball on a court. You roller skate on places that are made for that or out on a sidewalk or on the public street. But the plaza issue and the public property issue and the private property conflict where you have multiple users who are not all anticipating the variety of uses. Generally walking down the street 24 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 in Philadelphia or going across an open, you're not anticipating walking into a basketball game. It just doesn't happen. So the Councilman is correct, there is a need for coexistence, but the facilities to be used should be for that particular purpose. There's also been this slight romanticizing of some of this in the sense that many of the users -- and I've certainly observed them -- are kids, but many are not. And I'd like if you could at least share with us again your experience. There's this -- I've referred to it as it's almost kind of an Ozzie and Harriet kind of Opie with the little beanie cap and the propeller on and just out having a good time and walking senior citizens across the street. That's not necessarily been my experience. And there some very young people who are doing it. But many of them are not young. They are much older. And they are, unfortunately, maybe inadvertently engaged in serious property damage. And that's my only concern with this. I'd love us to have a full open -- it could be a replica, for all I care, and would certainly support a replica of the Love Park 25 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 experience at a place that was built for that. And it should be visible, it should be accessible, it should be fully supported by the City of Philadelphia. But you cannot take over someone else's property and destroy it just for your own pleasure and enjoyment. None of us would accept that on any piece of property that any of us owned. No one of us allow people to come and destroy our personal items because it fulfills their sense of pleasure. So tell us a little bit about the user population. CHIEF INSPECTOR TIANO: Well, I'm going to say the majority are over 18, but I would say from the paperwork I saw, a majority over 18, correct? CAPTAIN CHIODETTI: Yes. Many college students from the area colleges. A lot of times we'll get the addresses or their identification, they'll be from out of state, Indiana, wherever it might be. And then we'll find out that they attend the area colleges. So they're from all -- the sport, it's a big sport and the ages are anywhere up to 30 years old, I'd say. 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245
Well, we've supported many sports in this City. And as the roller hockey craze grew, we built roller hockey rinks. As the tennis craze grew, we built tennis courts. We build just about everything that anyone would like, and the City should be actively involved in the skateboard park and other roller-type facilities. And whether it's at our neighborhood rec centers or for something like this at a prominent Center City location, I think we should be fully engaged and active in it and give people a place to go. CHIEF INSPECTOR TIANO: Also, I contacted colleagues from other jurisdictions, Jenkintown, Doylestown, Bucks County. They don't have it.
They don't have it or they don't permit it. CHIEF INSPECTOR TIANO: They will not permit it. They take it very serious.
And so as a result, Philadelphia becomes the location? CHIEF INSPECTOR TIANO: Philly's the place to go. 27 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 CAPTAIN CHIODETTI: I may say, Love Park, JFK Park is the very popular -- I don't know why, but I think it's because of the design, at least before they renovated the park, that attracted so many boarders. I've never viewed it personally, ut my understanding is it was a common website among skateboarders and one of the most prominent places throughout the country to skate, all skateboarders want to come here and skate there. So it's more than just, you know, leniency on the part of Philadelphia compared to maybe the surrounding suburbs. It's just the design of that particular park that attracted the skateboarders. That's the understanding that I had.
Thank you. Anymore questions for these witnesses? (No response.)
Seeing none, we will ask for Mr. Frank Thompson. And is Mr. Lawrence Zipf here? Could you please take a table also? Mr. Thompson, could you please identify yourself for the record? 28 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245
I'm Frank Thompson. I'm the Vice President of the Philadelphia Vietnam Veterans Memorial.
I'm here today to support Councilman Nutter's Bill to increase the fine. Over the past two and a half years we had the vigorous enforcement program with the Center City Districts to cut down on the skateboarding and roller blading which has caused numerous damages to the Vietnam Veterans Memorial in excess of over $50,000 in the past two years. The skateboard itself, the metal portion comes in contact with granite and chips it, tears it apart. They use a wax that they put on the granite to give them a lift. That wax has an oil in it. As you know, Councilman, you've seen our memorial, there's permanent staining that takes place. Also, 98 percent of all our arrests -- and we've arrested 156 people in the past two years -- 98 percent of them are from outside the City. And 75 percent of them above the age of 18. Just last Saturday I stopped six people from going into the memorial with their skateboards. 29 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 They were all from Boothwyn. Their mother had dropped them off to go skating in the City of Philadelphia. Of course, we stopped them. Did a pedestrian stop on them and we called for the mother to come back and pick them up and take them out of the City. That's what they're doing. All of our arrests are-- 98 percent of them are from outside the City. They're coming here to skate in the City. And they look at the fine -- if we don't charge them misdemeanor and they just get hit with a summary offense, a lot of them don't even show up at Community Court. They laugh at it. So a hefty fine and the taking of their property is what's actually necessary. It could be, actually, a deterrent not to come to our City. Come here, spend your money, have a good time, go where you're supposed to go; don't damage somebody else's property, especially our beloved memorial. Thank you.
Thank you very much. Please identify yourself for the record.
My name is Larry Zipf. Good after noon, Chairman Kenney and Members of the Committee on Public works and Public Property. My 30 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 name is Larry Zipf, and as the president of the Building Owners and Manager's Association of Philadelphia, otherwise known as BOMA, I'm here to ask for your support of Bill 030245. BOMA is a non-profit organization whose members management and leasing services to over 51 million square feet of office space in the City of Philadelphia. Over half a million building occupants, employees, and visitors pass through our doors every day. The assessed value of the real estate of the office buildings you manage within the City exceeds $1.6 billion. This produces annual real estate taxes for the City of approximately $133 million. BOMA member buildings and occupants pay revenues to the City, excluding real estate taxes in excess of $1.3 billion annually comprised of City wage taxes, business privilege taxes, U&O taxes in the Center City District assessment. We're here today to discuss the ongoing, unmitigated and costly damage created by skateboarders roller bladers and bicyclists that has continued despite skateboarding legislation that was put in effect two years ago. Additional support 31 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 from the Members of City Council is desperately needed. While it is typically young people who are involved, these are not children playing. They are acts of vandalism and trespassing and are extremely destructive to private property. Our members are impacted as follows: First, due to the uncontrolled actions of these individuals, our members are faced with increased insurance rates due to liability issues. It is only a matter of time before an innocent bystander is hit by a flying skateboard or individual in their efforts to jump, grind, or traverse steps, railings, and benches all on private property. Second, there are members that have incurred a substantial increase in security costs since they are forced to hire off-duty police or private guards on weekends to maintain safety outside of their buildings. With the increase in security, which is especially critical since September 11th, the security officers are distracted from their primary duties while chasing individuals on skateboards, bikes, and roller blades. 32 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 Third, the cost to repair the damage created by these individuals is over $130,000 annually for some buildings in Center City. These additional costs impact the operating expenses of the property and are ultimately passed on through higher rental rates to the tenants. This is just one of the several issues that make it problematic to retain tenants in our City. Our members have invested millions of dollars on their properties and to have further financial burden placed upon them by the recklessness of the of the skateboarders, roller bladers and bicyclists is unfair. This ordinance will strengthen current legislation, and BOMA asks that you support Bill 16 030245. Thank you for this opportunity. I'd be happy to answer any questions you may have.
Mr. Zipf, could you give us some examples or if you have any handouts that could put financial figures into the record indicating the different buildings that have been impacted by this activity, the amount of damage 33 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 sustained at these particular locations?
Yes, I can. The Bell Atlantic Tower has incurred approximately $88,000 in damage. Additionally, they spend $8,000 a year in prevention, and an additional $5,000 in security patrols. 1700 Market Street has spent over $10,000 installing marble guards in the seating areas as well as thousands of dollars to clean the marble and replace trash receptacles. United Plaza has spent over $25,000 in repairs just during a six-month period for damages caused by skateboarders. 1600 Market Street is just over $5,000. The granite pavers have been damaged and replaced at a cost of $25,000 each. 11 Penn Center has probably suffer the greatest damage at $130,000. They've had to replace all their building handrails, light fixtures, and they have installed round knobs on the top of the handrails but they continue to be abused. The last example would be 102 Commerce Square has spent over $60,000 repairing and retrofitting signage, pavers, and benches. It does 34 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 not include additional security costs on a daily basis and costs that were incurred during the X-Games when the skateboarders were most prevalent in the City. That totals about $318,000. Many of these are annual recurring costs.
So your position is you have these great buildings, open plazas, I guess they were designed such that people would utilize them, walk through, sit down, eat lunch, look at the sky, whatever it is that people want to do. And your position is you'd like people to continue to enjoy your open plazas, but you'd not like to have them destroyed by activity that the plazas were not designed for; is that right?
Are there other representatives of BOMA with us here today?
Mr. Sipf, I may have missed this, but you also have liability at those 35 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 properties; am I correct? If one of these skateboarders choose to sue the property owner, they could do that?
Absolutely. The liability insurance issues have gone up dramatically since September 11th, for one. Secondly, the increased risk of safety is a factor for people on our property which we're responsible for. I did mention that.
If one much these security guards calls the police when there are people violating, do they come out and actually ask them to leave, or do they rely on the Philadelphia Police to respond to a 911 call of a complaint that you have trespassing on your property?
If you don't mind, I'd prefer to have some of the folks who are dealing directly with this with the response they've had.
I'm curious on how you move them from skateboarding on a particular BOMA-represented property.
It may be best if you heard from the folks who are making those calls directly.
I'll ask the Chair 36 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 whoever could answer that.
Councilman, we have a few representatives from specific buildings.
Mr. Chairman, if I may, we had hd to increase our insurance at the memorial from a half million to a million dollars for liability purposes. And it primarily deals with the people going in there with their skateboards and not only destroying our property, but causing harm to other people that they may be knocking over. I mean, our place -- the War Memorial, they'll tell you that's the greatest place in the City to go skateboarding because of its design. And we have some vets that have been in there, if they run into them, not only hurt are they going to hurt the person with their board, but the person that does the hurting is very possibly also going to become hurt. So we've had to increase our liability from 37 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 500,000 to $1 million on our site.
Thank you very much. William Criticos, Richard Evans and Don Haas, please come forward. Please identify yourself for the record.
Good afternoon. I'm Bill 8 Criticos from One and Two Commerce Square, and I support Bill No. 030245. In fact I would be happier if the fines were much higher. Mr. Zipf pretty much went over a lot of what I was going to say in my statement here. But we've had about $180,000 worth of damage over the last three years at Commerce Square. They destroy the handrails. We've put buttons on the handrails to try to prevent it. We've had to add extra security that sit outside during the lunchtime. They disturb people. They intimidate people with their skateboards and their bikes. They destroy our signage out front. We've tried everything. To answer Councilman Rizzo's question, we used to run them off, our security guards used to run them off to try to minimize the damage. By the time we got there, pretty much the damage was done. Since we've met with the police, we've tried another 38 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 avenue we try calling the police and saying we have vandalism in progress. Sometimes the police come, sometimes they don't. Frankly, I understand that they have more important things to deal with than skateboarders. We're a huge tax revenue base for the City of Philadelphia, and we deserve some kind of support and some kind of relief when it comes to the destruction that they're causing.
My name is Don Haas with the Bell Atlantic Tower at 1717 Arch. The Bell Atlantic Towers is a 1.2 million square foot high-rise office building in the City. We have a beautiful plaza that's been thoroughly destroyed over the years by the skateboarders, bicycle riders. The roller blades haven't been much of a problem. But everybody who wants to grind comes to the Bell Atlantic Tower. The damage to the stone has cost us well in excess of $80,000. And that doesn't even take into consideration the personal liability issues that you could have with people getting hurt. 39 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 We've had to end up running people off that were doing photo shoots for skater magazines at 3 o'clock in the afternoon with no regard for any of the public egress in the plaza or on 18th Street. We've attempted numerous methods to make it less attractive to skateboarding. We've increased security patrols with our in-house people, we've purchased police coverage on prime times. We've put numerous anti-skateboarding devices in place on the most attractive pieces: Handrails, seats, benches that we have out there. It really destroys look and it's only marginally effective. We are, again, asking for some type of relief to mitigate the continual damage that we have. Answering Mr. Rizzo comment about the police. It really depends on the 911 priorities. If you're calling at 2 o'clock on a Saturday night, your pretty well low on the totem pole if you have a lot of other activity going on in the City. And that's when you get a lot of activity. You get people car loads in. You go out and take the license plate numbers down, rarely is it a Pennsylvania plate. We get a Jersey plates, New 40 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 York plates, Delaware. It's amazing. The ranges of ages can be from to year olds and you can have 4 20 of them in a pack. You can some younger kids, 15 5 to 20, just skateboarding around the whole day. 6 It's very disruptive. Thank you. 7
I'm sorry the Police 9 Department left, but I know there's representatives 10 of the Administration here in the room. Maybe 11 there's something short-term that can be done to get 12 that priority changed in a way directly with the 13 district to get you some response. Maybe there's a 14 way -- and I know there's been other issues that 15 that's been addressed. So I would hope that whoever 16 is here looking around -- I see Jim Donaghy from the 17 Managing Director's Office. Maybe there's something 18 that can bring that response sooner. 19
Even with a fast response, 20 your chances of apprehension are very low. It's a 21 numbers game. If you have to officers come out 22 and you have 20 skateboarders there, you're lucky if 23 you catch the slow on. 24
That's not 25 necessarily -- well, we have bike cops; maybe we're 41 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 heading in the direction skateboard cops. But I think the point is maybe it would be nice to apprehend them, but just getting them out of your area to prevent damage would also be, I think, something that you'd be appreciative of also.
Once they're there, the done damage is done; it really is because it's reactionary on everybody's part. Because once the blade -- you know, once they grind, it's done.
I'm not suggesting that that's a long-term solution. I'm talking about right now if your critical of the response, then maybe we need to fix that.
I don't know if we would say we were critical of te response. I think we're cognizant of other priorities. Property damage is a low priority if I'm answering a robbery in progress or some other type of civil disturbance.
Since we've met with Inspector Banick (ph) and some of the other people from the Police Department recently, they've pledged to give us some additional support and run it up flagpole as far as priority. But frankly, all we're doing is when they're working with my building, 42 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 they're running them off my building; they're going to his building. I mean once they realize they can't skate at Commerce for a while, they'll go to Bell Atlantic, then they'll go to United Engineers. And ultimately we need something that's going curb this on a more permanent basis.
I think Councilman Rizzo raises an important point. And again, I'd at least like to state for the record, I mean, I'm not interested in deterring the excitement of youth or the enthusiasm of sport. I'm not interested in trying to increase fines. This is not for generating revenue for the City of Philadelphia. I'm not even interested in confiscation of the boards. I mean, we don't have anything to do with them if we have them. All we're interesting in protecting private property from destruction. That is the big issue here. And you never have to worry about a fine, you never have to worry about having your board confiscated, you never have to worry about us saying anything to you if you don't do what you're not supposed to do: Skate, roll, ride on someone else's property or anywhere where it is prohibited. You can do it to your heart's content 43 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 where it's allowed. Again, I don't necessarily know that it is onerous on people to ask them to not destroy someone else's property. I mean, it's generally a lesson that I think most of us pretty much have figured out by the time we're maybe 6, 7 years old. It needs to be reinforced from time to time, I think, with all of us. But it's a fundamental premise: Don't touch what doesn't belong to you; put things bac the way you found them; don't destroy other people's stuff. I mean, this is like kindergarten concepts here.
I agree. I think most of our kids here probably own these things, but they don't go up and down our neighborhood's cars or things like that. They skate within the law.
Most skateboarders that I've encountered feel it's their right to skate where they want. And if there's damage done, sobeit.
Thank you. Sir, could you identify yourself for the record?
My name is Rick Evans, and I manage 11 Penn Center at the corner of 19th and 44 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 Market. When the property was designed and built in the mid-'80s, the architect paid special attention to the design of the handrails on our plaza. They incorporated light fixtures directly into the handrails for lighting the steps. This was both a blessing and a curse. It was a blessing because of the dramatic lighting effects surrounding the property. It was a curse because of the skateboarders. Jumping up and down on the handrails with their boards caused the components of the light fixtures to break creating a safety hazard on the steps when the lights when out. Just as important was the damage to the handrails themselves. By the skateboarders jumping onto the handrails, it caused the handrails to crack and break at the base where they were attached to the ground or plaza. The results were a constant maintenance problem and expense issue which passed on to our tenants and increase their occupancy cost. Two years ago, it was determined we could no longer repair the handrails and lighting because of its condition. We replaced all 25 handrails and had to install new light fixtures on 45 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 the steps since the original lights were part of the handrails. The cost was in excess of $130,000. We also installed knobs on the handrails to prevent the skateboarders from damaging them. This has not worked. We are still sustaining damage to the handrails. And in fact, we are missing a couple of the knobs right now. They probably see the knobs as a challenge to jump over. Another aspect of the nuisance they cause is the noise they generate. Adjacent to 11 Penn Center is the Penn Center House, a cooperative. On several occasions, I have received calls from their residents and their property manager complaining about the noise late at night caused by the skateboarders. I have assured them that my security runs them off when they are observed on our closed circuit TV and during their patrol rounds. Needless to say, I strongly support this ordinance on behalf of my tenants and, to an extent, the residents of Penn Center House. Thank you.
Thank you very much. Any questions for these witnesses? (No response.)
Seeing none, we will 46 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 ask Kathleen Wilkins and Eileen O'Brien to please come forward. Please identify yourself for the record and speak directly into the microphone.
Hi, my name is Cathy Wilkins. I'm the property manager at the United Plaza Building located at 30 South 17th Street. About a year ago, my building underwent a major renovation, a $5 million improvement. On the 17th and 18th Street plazas, before the fence was taken from construction, the skateboarders were removing the fence and skating in the new renovated area. It's made of granite and concrete. The skateboarding problem continued usually after business hours and on the weekends. We had to incur an extra cost to install zoom cameras on the outside, and we installed over a hundred pegs to deter the skateboarders. However, it wasn't a deterrent. We also had to increase security in order to control the situation with them destroying the granite on the brand-new plaza. That didn't work either. When they were approached by my security officers, the skateboarders were arrogant, 47 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 nasty, they would pull the pegs off the granite on the benches and throw them at the security officers. They also threw the pegs at a nearby pizzeria across the street and damaged about three or four windows. The pizza owner was very upset and wanted to hold me accountable for the actions of the skateboarders. My building has sustained over $25,000 in damage in a six-month period. I've attached pictures here of the pegs that I've put on the planters to deter them. That didn't work. They ripped them off. So I was continually having somebody come in and replace them. And I had to design granite slabs and strategically place them along the paver in order to prevent them from skateboarding. I just wanted to give you an idea of the size of the plaza. It's about 10,000 square feet.
As long as they're in, it works? But they take them out?
No. On the one --. 48 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245
The second picture is the second design I had to go to due to the fact that they kept ripping the pegs out.
That's what they were throwing at my officer and the pizzeria across the street from me. I did work with the 9 District. I worked with security officers. I was successful in about 25 arrests. I worked with the 9th District. They were very helpful. Instead of saying we had skateboarders on the plaza, we tell them we had a vandalism in process. They dispatched an officer. They confiscated the board, took them to the station. But the problem continued. Once of the word got out that we were aggressively pursuing skateboarders, they just went to bill's place, which is Commerce Square. 49 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245
SO basically, what you had to do is you had to -- I don't want to use the word fudge it a little, but you had to -- the police didn't know whether it was someone with a hammer breaking your planters or a skateboarder. So you kind of elevate it without being as clear as you could have been.
I met with the captain of the 9th District and this is how he advised me to handle the situation.
Because the police office that got the assignment didn't know what the situation was, and that's unfortunate. That's what needs to get fixed. We need to temporarily ask the Police Department that when you call and you're very clear about the call, not that you have to create a situation that's not clear --
Well, the problem we ran into was as part of the renovation my cameras, our 50 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 digital, I actually had to bring in my vendor and transpose the skateboarder damaging the property onto an analog tape and give it to Police Department. But the problem was once they received that tape, nobody knew what to do. We were looking at not only should the skateboarder be responsible, but the parents should be responsible and try to enforce the $300 fine.
Again, my point, and I don't want to belabor this, we need to work with the Police Department to figure out a way to get the response based on accurate information, not information that's not clear that could possibly jeopardize an officer's safety responding to something other than a skateboarder. We need to get the same response when you call about a skateboarders as when you call and report vandalism. Because I don't think it's fair to the officer that they have to respond to a call that's not other than skateboarding. So we need to figure that out on how to get that accomplished. And I'm going to meeting with the Managing Director at 4 o'clock on another issue, and I'm going to bring this to the Managing Director's attention that we need to figure out that 51 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 if there are bike officers in the area, that they get the assignment. If there are foot patrols, which there may not be, that they get the assignment. That's why we've just spent almost a hundred million dollars on a radio system that gives ours officers on foot and on bikes better coverage. So what we need to do is figure out at the police radio level if you call about that, who in fact gets the assignment. Does the sector car that works in the 9th District get it, does the bike police officer, does a police officer in a special unit respond just to basically get those folks out of the way to prevent further damage? Again, I like your engineering approach to fixing the problem also.
Thank you very much. Any other questions for this witness? (No response.)
Good afternoon, Councilman and Members of the Committee. My name is Eileen O'Brien. I'm an Administrative Analyst in the 52 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 Department of Finance Code Unit. I reviewed Bill 030245 with respect to the responsibilities assigned to the Director of the Finance. Current provisions of the Philadelphia Code prohibits skateboarding on posted private property and set the initial dollar value of the ticket that can be issued for this infraction at $25, along with the confiscation of the skateboard. The skateboard can be returned the same day as the ticket issued if paid in cash. This is has not proven to be a sufficient deterrent to the prohibited behavior. The Bill before you today would increase the ticket amount to $75 and extend the prohibition to those using roller blades or bicycles on posted private property, not just skateboards. A provision for the confiscation of these other items is also established. It's conceivable that the issuance of a $25 ticket is viewed as worth of the risk in violating this law present. Increasing that amount to $75 will hopefully discourage many more individuals from engaging in this type of behavior and reduce the damage to private property owners. 53 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 My office is prepared to work with Councilman Nutter, the Police Department, and the Building Owners Association to assist in the implementation and enforcement of this ordinance. And we thank you for your support of this legislation which is intended to improve the quality of life throughout the City. Thank you.
Thank you very much for your testimony. Are there any questions for Ms. O'Brien? (No response.)
Seeing none, thank you very much. We've had a request for testimony from Joshua Nims, please. Can I see a hand-raise of anybody else interesting in testifying on this Bill? Anyone else, so I know from time perspective. Good afternoon. Please identify yourself for the record Joshua Nims.
I think everybody -- I know that Councilman Nutter is familiar with me and Councilwoman Blackwell as well. I represent usually 54 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 the skateboarders in the City through the Franklin Paine Skate Park Fund Organization. We've been very in making what's happening at the Art Museum happen, as well as making a lot of statements over the past couple of years about situation at Love and skateboarding around the City. Today, though, I don't think this issue is as much about skateboarding as it may be a quality-of-life initiative over all. So I come before you today to voice disagreement with Section 12 10-610 Philadelphia Code as amended by this Bill. The proposed amendments, regardless of their negative impacts on skateboarding are simply bad for business overall, in my opinion and I think in the opinion of a lot of skateboarders and business people. Philadelphia is presently in a fight for its life, but one hand may not know what the other is doing. Millions of dollars are being spent right now trying to attract creative young people to our City. We're trying to get high tech, skill-oriented young people to come into our City and to stay here to implement our economy as we go into the 21st century. But this proposed amendment, as it 55 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 broadens the ban on a number of recreational activities on a lot of properties throughout the City, those same people who are affected are likely to be those same young people who we're trying to attract and retain in our City. So it seems like raising the fines and creating a larger application for the existing Bill us just bad for business in terms of attracting and retaining young people in our City. It's the wrong message that we're sending to the people who are most likely to make up the creative class of citizens that Philadelphia has been spending so much money to retain. Cities like Vancouver have taken the type of argument that I'm making about this creative class and treating this creative class with a certain amount of respect in order to keep them here and have actually relaxed their laws against skateboarding and has seen a continued increase in their Center City -- they don't call it Center City -- but their central city locations in terms of young people moving in and staying because they feel welcome. And again, I'm not necessarily saying that this argument is diametrically opposed to the 56 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 argument that there's a lot of property damage going on in the City. There definitely is, and it has to be addressed in some way. Unfortunately, at the same time, if as it's addressed this way we take the chance of damaging our City's reputation to the very young people that we're trying to attract to make our City continue to grow in the 21st Century. I think that's the most salient argument against the Bill right now, rather bringing up all of the passions of the skateboarding community and their parents. I will note that skateboarders -- I've heard in the testimony already that's it's understood now and accepted that skateboarders are adults, that most of these skateboarders we're talking about are over 18. That means they're voting age and they're going to start voting. That means that Council, as it makes its decisions about these Bills, will potentially need to take the skateboarders a little more seriously in terms of their ability to be voters and part of an active constituency, not just young people who like kindergartners, haven't quite learned their lessons about life yet. Again, I'm not making excuses for 57 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 the points that are well taken. Damage is being done and these property owners are obviously suffering a financial hit as a result of it.
I'm curious as to your opinion or your views on what constitutes private property. I guess what I'm bewildered about is while I understand this creative class argument -- and we can argue whether or not that's in fact true, but I'm stipulate that you're accurate. When does a person's private property become subject to protection? Do you own a car?
If I decided that I wanted to grind on your fender and you were in the house watching TV and I did a little jump and I grinded down your fender, would that be okay?
I think part of the problem is that we look at this larger space as somehow it's public, but it really isn't public; it's privately owned as your car is privately owned, as your front step is privately owned, and I don't understand the dichotomy in view as to you can use other people's private property as opposed -- 58 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245
Well, I'm not going to come up here and say that I support using other people's private property in a way that is going to damage it and cause thousands of dollars. That's why I'm making the argument that this is instead is about protecting the interest of a class of young people who we are trying to attract to our City. If we try to attract young people to our City through the advertising and through the outreach things that we're doing through the universities and then at the same time pass legislation that significantly affects their choice of recreation, then there's a mixed message being sent. This may not be --
How do they have a choice in recreation to be on someone's private property?
We're talking about roller blading, bicyling and skateboarding.
And Public Property. 59 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245
Public property as well. Obviously, there's going to be some gray area there. From the perspective of the young person who comes into the City --
Thank you, sir. What ends up happening is that young people are going to be negatively affect and already are negatively affect by this type of legislation. They look at this type of legislation and say, "Do I want to come to a City that has this type of legislation on the books, or would I rather go somewhere like Vancouver, like Washington, D.C., like New York City where there is a somewhat more relaxed atmosphere?"
Part of what I don't understand is that if this were a Bill to ban skateboarding, roller blading and bicycle riding in the City, I could understand you being upset or 60 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 being concerned about it. I don't think we would do anything like that. The point is that it's not a ban on skateboarding; it's a prohibition on where you can do it. And when it comes to the issue of a person's or a company's private property, I don't see where there's a valid argument that people should have access to it to be able to destroy it or cause its destruction.
Or that it's a deterrent to them coming here. Do you have a driver's license.
Do you think it's an onerous requirement by the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania that you should have to have a drivers license to drive a vehicle, or is that a deterrent to people coming to Pennsylvania.
So tell me how the young person is affected by a law that says you can't destroy someone's private property. Tell me why you wouldn't want to come here.
Sir, because the law doesn't 61 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 say you can't destroy private property. It says you can't ride a skateboard on public property and private public.
It does not include the street. It does not include the sidewalk. It includes public property. Now, Josh, you and I have had this conversation many, many times. We met at Love Park. It's public property which is defined and it's private property. What's the gray area?
I guess the gray area is the open space that overlaps. Take the clothes pin, for example, the clothes pin area at 1500. There is a large, flat, wide-open space there. It's wonderful for skateboarding.
There aren't really any ledges or edges to speak of that are useful skateboarding. The ones that are there are really high and rarely used.
Well, yeah, because if you use the edge at the steps, you might end up on the lower level.
Exactly. But also the large 62 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 blocks out there as well, they're very high and difficult to use. Yet that flat space there is a wonderful place to ride a skateboard. And yet, according to the Bill as it stands now, it's illegal to ride a skateboard there. I have to admit that that doesn't -- it just doesn't seems fair, maybe you can say. If that's as good argument as I have, maybe --
Let me ask you. You raised the fairness argument. You're a lawyer now, right?
So you know when you open doors, you end up going behind them, right?
So let's talk about fairness. Now, is it fair to Bell Atlantic Tower owner that they spent $88,000 to fix damage to their property caused by people who were doing something that was not authorized by them? Is that fair?
Is it to the folks at 11 Penn Center who spent $130,000.
No. In fact, we can 63 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 stipulate down your list "no" to all of those. The issue, in my opinion, is that this is not good for our attraction and retention efforts in this City.
Well, let me ask this question. Let's take it from the more positive side, because there are two sides to this particular argument. So what would it take to get the skateboarders or others to stop damaging either public or private property and engage in the more positive side of this? And what should the City be doing to better encourage this behavior? And then I want you to tell me that after we do all those things, that the boarders are going to stop destroying public and property.
On the other hand, we've already actively started trying to build -- get the skate park built at the Art Museum. That's going along very well. We've had a lot of support from Councilwoman Blackwell, from Councilman Darrell Clarke. You've expressed some interest in helping 64 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 with some land in your district. All that's very positive on that front and is moving along very well. And hopefully, yes, a year from now --
There's something built and in place that the majority of these parents who are dropping their kids off --
Because that becomes a part of our responsibility that we should provide facilities for people to come and use here in Philadelphia that their own municipalities don't provide them; somehow that's a part of our responsibility too?
Okay. So after we do all that -- let's say we build a wonderful skateboard park designed by the skateboarders and they have all the input that they could hope and desire; that you build something in my district, 65 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 which I would love to see; and Councilwoman Blackwell, Councilman Clarke, all Members of Council are enthusiastic about publicly built and designed skateboard parks. Are you then telling me that the boarders will stop destroying public and private property? Yes or no?
Instead, I can say that a large percentage would be moved to another location.
So your testimony is we should do everything that the community would ever want and still be subject to property damage because they have a belief --
No, sir. I'm simply saying that I don't the power personally to make that guarantee to you.
Well, you were smart enough not to fall into that trap. You think the skateboarders have a right 66 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 to damage private and public property?
No, I don't. I will say this too, though, that there's a certain amount of recognition, I think, by a lot of this testimony that we've heard today that skateboarding draws young people into our City.
I want as many young people to come here as possible. The City continues to lose population. I just want them to stop damaging our property that the public taxpayers have to pay for and I want them to stop damaging private property which is discouraging to our business community where some of these young people might actually want to get a job. The two have to work in sync. It's not going to help us attract young people if the businesses don't want to be here because we cannot control or help them maintain their private property. It's not exactly a selling point to businesses.
I also think we could get into a chicken and egg circle about that. 67 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245
So the two go together. We have to protect our businesses. We have to protect the economic engine that helps drive this City that would provide a job for young people because one of the reasons young people don't stay in Philadelphia after they get an incredible education at a City that has more colleges and universities than almost any other region in the United States, one of the reasons they don't stay here is because they can't get a job. And if we further drive our businesses out of here, they can't get a job. That's the bottom line. Stop destroying private property. Again, I would say, it is generally a lesson that most of us learn somewhere between kindergarten and third grade. There is no 17 excuse. None. (Applause.)
Josh, you know I like you. You don't want to ask me do I have any more questions. You don't have enough time in your life to deal with all the questions that I might have. I look forward to talking to you soon. Send 68 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 contribution form to the Franklin Paine organization, please.
I have a few things to pass out to the group as well. Thank you.
Thank you very much. Any owes questions? (No response.)
None. Anyone else to testify on this Bill? Please identify yourself.
My name is Brian Winters. I live in Philadelphia. I'm years old. I own a 14 small business in Old City. I provide technical 15 services and a retail outlet for people to shop at. 16 I want to make this quick and simple, not trying to 17 suck up anybody's time, but without a place or 18 provisions for me to skateboard, I'm still going to 19 skate these places that you've mentioned before. By 20 raising the fine, I'm just going to run faster. 21 It's been something I've been doing for ten years, 22 trying to evade cops so I don't get the fine, while 23 I was in school and now when I'm out of school 24 trying run the business and my wallet's kind strapped and I want to stay alive, I'm not 69 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 skateboarding.
Can I ask you question? Baseball is like the American pastime -- one of the American pastimes. If I decided that I wanted to have a hard ball game across the street from your store and had my friend Michael Nutter here pitch me hard balls and I batted them against your window, wouldn't you call the police? Or would you think that that was my right to engage in a sport of my choosing at the place that I chose?
No, I'm not intentionally trying to break anything. I'm playing baseball where I want to play it and he's pitching me the ball and I'm hitting will where I want to hit it. And if it breaks your window on your retail store, you wouldn't call the police? You'd say, "No 23 problem, fellows. Enjoy yourself."
I think that if there was baseball field a block away from where we're playing 70 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 baseball in front of my store, I would ask you if you could kindly go down there and let's work on fixing my window.
Why? What's wrong with what the Councilman wants to do? MR WINTERS: It's just common sense.
He just doing what he wants to do our in front of your place. What's the problem?
There's provisions for him to play baseball a block away from store. I think I'd ask him if he would go play there.
The City is in the process of building a skateboard park.
I have heard nothing about a skateboard park and seen nothing about a skateboard park.
We have a skateboard park at Franklin Roosevelt Park, which is known as The Lakes in South Philadelphia.
You have a subway 71 05/29/03 - PUBLIC PROPERTY - BILL 030245 drops you at Broad and Pattison Avenue.