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Committee Hearing, June 2, 1998

Minutes from Philadelphia City Council Committee Hearings, Jun 2, 1998

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Names our system found in this transcript. Automatically extracted, so it can include anyone named in the record, not only officials or parties.

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COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC HEARING AND PUBLIC MEETING BEFORE THE COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Tuesday, June 2, 1998 1:00 p.m. - - - BILL NO. 970518 - Amending Title of Phila. Code 7 relating to Zoning and Planning. . . BILL NO. 980168 - Amending Philadelphia Zoning 8 Maps by changing zoning designations of certain areas of land. . . 9 BILL NO. 980271 - Approving redevelopment of the Meadow II Urban Renewal Area. . . 10 BILL NO. 980273 - Approving redevelopment of New Kensington-Fishtown Urban Renewal Area. . . 11 BILL NO. 980326 - Approving redevelopment of the Model Cities Urban Renewal Area. . . 12 BILL NO. 980327 - Approving redevelopment of the Cecil B. Moore Urban Renewal Plan. . . 13 BILL NO. 980330 - Approving redevelopment of Grays Ferry Urban Renewal Area. . . 14 BILL NO. 980331 - Approving redevelopment of the Point Breeze East Redevelopment Area. . . BILL NO. 980335 - Approving redevelopment of Center City Redevelopment Area, Franklin Urban Renewal Area. . . BILL NO. 980332 - Approving redevelopment of the Sarah Allen Redevelopment Area. . . BILL NO. 980333 - Approving redevelopment of Mantua Urban Renewal Area. . . PRESENT: COUNCILMAN JAMES F. KENNEY, Chair COUNCILMAN DAVID COHEN COUNCILWOMAN ANNA CIBOTTA VERNA COUNCILMAN ANGEL ORTIZ COUNCILMAN FRANK DICICCO COUNCILMAN BRIAN O'NEILL - - - VINCENT VARALLO ASSOCIATES, INC. Registered Professional Reporters Eleven Penn Center, Suite 600 Philadelphia, PA 19103 (215) 561-2220 2 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES I N D E X Bill 970518 Richard Lombardo, City Planning Commission . . Bill 970168 Richard Lombardo, City Planning Commission . . 7 Bill No. 980271 Noel Eisenstat, Executive Director . . . . . . 13 8 Philadelphia Redevelopment Authority 9 Lonnie Chafin, Executive Director. . . . . . . 15 Community Development Corporation of Frankford Group Ministry. Bill No. 980273 Noel Eisenstat, Executive Director . . . . . . 30 Philadelphia Redevelopment Authority John Carpenter, Executive Director . . . . . . 32 New Kensington Community Development Corporation Bill No. 980326 Noel Eisenstat, Executive Director . . . . . . 35 Philadelphia Redevelopment Authority Allen Rubin. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 57 Spring Garden Community Resident and Board Member of Spring Garden Community Development Corporation Bill No. 980327 Noel Eisenstat, Executive Director . . . . . . 45 Philadelphia Redevelopment Authority Bill No. 980333 Noel Eisenstat, Executive Director . . . . . . 63 Philadelphia Redevelopment Authority Stephen Mullin . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 65 Director of Commerce, City of Philadelphia 3 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES (Index, cont'd.) Bill No. 980331 Noel Eisenstat, Executive Director . . . . . . 71 Philadelphia Redevelopment Authority Kelly Woodland, Executive Director . . . . . . 72 18th Street Development Corporation Alfred M. Brown, Executive Director. . . . . . 74 Point Breeze Performing Arts Center Bill No. 980335 Noel Eisenstat, Executive Director . . . . . . 78 Philadelphia Redevelopment Authority Sophia Pham, Director of Development . . . . . 81 Philadelphia Chinatown Development Corporation Cecilia Yep, Executive Director. . . . . . . . 82 Philadelphia Chinatown Development Corporation Bill No. 980332 Noel Eisenstat, Executive Director . . . . . . 84 Philadelphia Redevelopment Authority Bill No. 980333 Noel Eisenstat, Executive Director . . . . . . 87 Philadelphia Redevelopment Authority 4 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 970518 P R O C E E D I N G S

Councilman Kenney

The Committee on Rules is now in session. We have a quorum with Councilmember Verna, Councilman Cohen, DiCicco, and I'm acting Chairman Councilman Kenney. The first two bills we will deal with our Bill No. 970518, which is an ordinance 9 amending Title 14 of The Philadelphia Code relating to "Zoning and Planning," by amending Chapter 14-100 entitled "General Provisions," by amending Chapter 14-200 entitled "Residential Districts," and by amending Chapter 14-1400 entitled "Parking and Loading Facilities," under certain terms and conditions. Please identify yourself for the record and proceed.

Mr. Lombardo

Good afternoon Mr. Chairman and members of the committee. My name is Richard Lombardo, and --

Councilman Kenney

Hold on, hold on. Try that microphone again, try it again.

Mr. Lombardo

Rich Lombardo with the Planning Commission, here today to speak on Bill 25 No. 970518. 5 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 970518 This bill, as you've said, amends the zoning code by changing the provisions of the code to deal with off-street parking. Basically, this bill is to clear up inconsistencies with the zoning code that resulted in creating conditions whereby people wind up putting their -- in new construction, wind up putting their parking -- are required to put their parking up on the property line. So you basically, you have a case where you have the building, the yard or the landscaping, then the parking space, which is right up -- would be right up against your neighbor's property. This generally was not a problem when people did -- when people do garages, but you start to get more development happening where people are doing open-air parking, and they put that parking -- to meet the code, they put that parking on their neighbor's, you know, on the property line. And what this basically does is changes the situation so you now would have a requirement that landscaping would be -- basically, the parking would be at your house rather than on the 6 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 970518 property line. Then you'd have your landscaping, your yard, your side yard, your rear yard between the parking space and your neighbor's property line. That's the one purpose of this bill. And the other purpose of the bill is to put some limitation on the size of garages. I guess when they framed the zoning code, in order to encourage people to put in parking garages, there was very few limitations based on the height or the size of the garage. And that has created, again, some situations where people wind up with garages on their property line that are as big as their house. So what this district does is put a height limit and a number-of-vehicle limit on your accessory garage as part of a single-family dwelling. The height limit would be ten feet for a flat roof garage, and 15 feet for a gable or gambrel roof garage. And I believe the total number of cars that you could have would be a three-car garage as a matter of right, parking of three cars. This -- again, this bill is really viewed as a bill -- it was put in by Councilman 7 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 970518 O'Neill, I think, in response to some problems he had with some new housing developments in his district. But for the record, the Planning Commission supports this bill and recommends its adoption to the City Council. The Commissioner approved this on July 17th of 1997.

Councilman Kenney

Thank you very much. The Chair recognizes Councilman Cohen.

Councilman Cohen

Does property line apply to the common area of the driveway? There's a famous feud up in my area, northwest Philadelphia, between the neighbors of the 5100 block, Sydenham Street, and the neighbors of 5100 block of North 16th Street. They share a common driveway. On the 16th Street, the garage is under the house, and they have an approach on their own property before they get to the common driveway. On Sydenham Street, apparently, the builders many years ago decided they'd provide a small yard in back of the house and create a separate garage structure right up to the line of the common driveway so that when a neighbor on 8 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 970518 16th Street parks a car in their own -- on their own ground, it prevents anybody on Sydenham Street from removing their car from the garage. There's just not enough room to take the car out of the separate structure. Now, would this correct that? If so, I think it's a tremendous improvement because --

Mr. Lombardo

Basically, yeah. For new construction or anybody who's adding a parking space, it would require that the parking space be up against the house, then you would have the yard. So you would have -- you wouldn't have the parking space right on the edge of the driveway. I know exactly what you're talking about. That also happens (unintelligible) when someone builds a deck in the rear and they put the support post on the edge of the driveway, and then the person across the driveway can't get out of their --

Councilman Cohen

Well, what -- would it apply to the decks?

Mr. Lombardo

Well, that wouldn't -- I think the decks have already been corrected. There was an ordinance Council passed a couple 9 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980168 years ago that required that decks could no longer be built right to the edge of the rear driveway. They amended the zoning code to require that.

Councilman Cohen

All right. It seemed to be a positive change.

Councilman Kenney

Yes, sir. Any other questions of these witnesses? (No further questions.)

Councilman Kenney

Is there anyone else in the room to testify on this bill? (No response.)

Councilman Kenney

Seeing none, we'll move to the next bill. Bill No. 970751 is being withdrawn at the request of the sponsor. Bill 980168, an ordinance to amend the Philadelphia Zoning Maps, by changing the zoning designations of certain areas of land located within an area bounded by Washington Avenue, Broad Street, Morris Street, and Seventh Street. Please identify yourself for the record and proceed.

Mr. Lombardo

Yeah, good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee. Rich 10 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980168 Lombardo from the Philadelphia Planning Commission here today to speak on Bill 980168. As you said, this bill involves -- is a community-wide remapping. It was sponsored by Councilman DiCicco. It involves about 240 acres of land generally bounded by Broad Street on the west, Washington Avenue on the north, Seventh Street on the east, and Morris Street on the south. This is a continuation of the remappings that the Councilman has been doing in conjunction with the various communities in South Philadelphia to remove the multifamily and replace it with single-family zoning. The basic changes that are taking place in this bill is to rezone the R-10 residential, which is a multifamily row house district to R-10A residential, which is a single-family row house designation, to reflect single-family characteristic of most of these -- the vast majority of these homes in this area. Also, some of the commercial zoning on Broad Street would be changed to lower commercial or to residential where appropriate. 11 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980168 Again, this bill was done in conjunction with Councilman DiCicco's office. And for the record, the Planning Commission, on May 21, 1998, recommends approval. Of Bill 980168.

Councilman Kenney

Thank you. Councilman Cohen.

Councilman Cohen

What's the difference between R-10 and R-9?

Mr. Lombardo

R-10 is when a house is built right to the sidewalk; R-9 is when you have the front set back or a front yard. Where we have houses that are built with the set-back, we use 9 or 9-A. Like in South Philadelphia and in North Philadelphia where a lot of houses are built right -- there is no front yard, we use R-10 or R-10A. Everything else is the same except that R-9 requires the set-back and R-10 allows you to build right to the sidewalk.

Councilman Cohen

There's no room for an R-9 in the properties --

Mr. Lombardo

This area is all built up and it's --

Councilman Cohen

It's all built up, okay. 12 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980271

Mr. Lombardo

It's all built up and it's all -- there are few pieces -- and, actually, when we did these remappings in South Philadelphia, there were a few neighborhoods where we did come across the set-backs, where we did make those R-9A instead of R-10A -- or R-5 over in the case of Girard Estates, where there are actually twin homes.

Councilman Cohen

Thank you.

Councilman Kenney

Thank you very much. Is there anyone else in the room here to testify on this bill? (No response.)

Councilman Kenney

Thank you very much. The next bill for consideration is Bill 19 No. 980271, which is an ordinance approved October 18, 1977, which approved the redevelopment proposal and the relocation plan of the Redevelopment Authority for the City of Philadelphia for the redevelopment of the Meadow II Urban Renewal Area by approving the first amendment of the redevelopment proposal and the 13 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980271 first amendment to the relocation plan, which provide inter alia for certain additional land acquisition and provision of certain relocation services required by law for the individuals, families, and businesses concerns which will be displaced. Good afternoon. Please identify yourself for the record and proceed.

Mr. Eisenstat

Good afternoon. I'm Noel Eisenstat, E-I-S-E-N-S-T-A-T. I am the Executive Director of City's Redevelopment Authority. I am here to start with testimony on Bill 980271. If I could for a moment refer you to the map that I've put before you which describes all the various -- the generalized, not exact-to-scale descriptions of the various urban renewal bills that are before you today. I would also point to the large map that you can see but others can't, as well as the specific map of the Meadows Project. This bill today before you -- excuse me for a second -- is located in the East Frankford Redevelopment Area, and it calls for the 14 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980271 acquisition of a total of fifteen parcels, fourteen parcels which are vacant and one parcel which is an occupied residential structure which will require relocation activities. These parcels are being acquired on behalf of the Community Development Corporation of the Frankford Group Ministry, otherwise known as "FGM" for what is known as the "Wilmont Meadows new construction project." A total of fifteen new units will be constructed for low- and moderate-income families for home ownership undertaken by the Office of Housing and Community Development. The acquisition and funding of this development project will be undertaken by the Office of Housing and Community Development. I would -- we have representatives here today from the community, if you'd like to hear from them. And I would ask for a waiver of the rules. The maps are self-explanatory.

Councilman Kenney

Please. You have someone from Group Ministry?

Mr. Eisenstat

Yes. 15 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980271

Mr. Chafin

Good afternoon.

Councilman Kenney

Good afternoon. Please identify yourself for the record.

Mr. Chafin

This is Lonnie Chafin. I'm Executive Director of the Community Development Corporation of Frankford Group Ministry. I'm here to speak in favor of this urban renewal taking. The strategy here actually arose from a concentrated plan developed by the community five years ago, called "The Frankford Plan," where over 60 cosponsoring organizations got together to decide what would be the fate of our neighborhood over the next five years. And we identified the treatment of vacant lots as a priority for ourselves as a -- to remedy short dumping, to remedy kind of the blighting influence of these vacant lots, and to try to change fate of the neighborhood by stimulating new investment and stimulating new opportunities for families to locate into Frankford. This is the largest vacant log within east Frankford. And it was, of course, a priority 16 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980271 for to us develop this lot which is near the White Hall public housing development and near a stable part of the community, kind of filling out what can be the future of Frankford. This is the third phase of new construction within the community. We completed three years ago the Meadow II Project, which built new townhouses for sale to low- and 10 moderate-income families. 11 We're beginning construction this 12 summer on the Cloud Street project, which is 13 another four units, also for sale for low- to 14 moderate-income families. And this is two blocks 15 away from the Cloud Street parcel and will be 16 another 15 units of affordable housing. 17 We see in Frankford a strong demand for 18 affordable housing and home ownership 19 opportunities. The mortgage counseling department 20 from the Community Development Corporation 21 Frankford Group Ministry does about 250 closings 22 per year, so we help 250 families buy their first 23 house every year. That's 8 percent of the market 24 in Philadelphia for houses under $50,000. And so we've experienced a critical 17 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980271 demand for home ownership in our neighborhood, and we view this as a part of stabilizing Frankford and then liberating the working-class neighborhood. I have some --

Councilman Kenney

Thank you. Sorry.

Mr. Chafin

I have some handouts, if you'd care for them.

Councilman Kenney

Please. The Sergeant-At-Arms will get them for you.

Mr. Chafin

The handouts are mostly the maps that Mr. Eisenstat's already shared with you. But in addition, there are a drawing of the buildings as they would appear after construction and a floor plan of the (unintelligible). They are twin buildings meant to reduce density, four bedrooms for larger families, and are affordable. We anticipate sales prices of about 45 to $50,000.

Councilman Kenney

And what's the -- your time frame for completion? When do you expect to be done?

Mr. Chafin

We hope that we can get through City Council -- get City Council's 18 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980271 permission to initiate the taking this spring, and we think then the final -- the transfer of the property from the City to the transfer CDC will be in September or October of this year, in which case we can begin construction. I'm more aggressive than perhaps the RDA, but we can begin construction as soon as we get that land, which I would anticipate to be early spring, February of 1999.

Councilman Kenney

And as you testified, this is home ownership?

Mr. Chafin

Yes, sir.

Councilman Kenney

Are there restrictions on individuals who, once they buy, would have the ability to convert that into some type of rental unit? For example, if I purchased the house under your program and, two years from now, decided to move, retain ownership, and use it as rental property, would I be able to do that?

Mr. Chafin

The RDA has a second mortgage on the property that requires the property to be owner-occupied for 20 years.

Councilman Kenney

Okay. Do any 19 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980271 members have questions? Councilmember Cohen?

Councilman Cohen

Could there be an arrangement for their sale under certain circumstances?

Mr. Chafin

I'm sorry?

Councilman Cohen

Suppose there's a need which develops that requires the sale of the property. Is that permitted?

Mr. Chafin

Yes, sir, it's permitted. The stricture is that the sale would have to go to an income-qualified family. So if the one who purchased the property also qualifies for the second mortgage, the transfer is allowed, but the property will have to remain affordable for 17 years. 18

Councilman Cohen

What are the income 19 limitations? 20

Mr. Chafin

Well, it depends on family size. It's 80 percent of median family income. And so I think that for a family of four, the income would be 35,000 a year. Does that sound right, Noel?

Mr. Eisenstat

Approximately. 20 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980271

Mr. Chafin

Approximately. It depends on how big your family is how much income you can have.

Councilman Cohen

Now, you referred to a 24-unit development that took place last year?

Mr. Chafin

Finished in 1995, yes, sir.

Councilman Cohen

In 1995. How did the sales of that go?

Mr. Chafin

Vigorous. We had over 350 people -- families apply for the houses. 13

Councilman Cohen

How were they 14 selected, the successful families? 15

Mr. Chafin

We had four criteria. We 16 would use a different selection process for these 17 houses, but we had four criteria. 18 One is that each family had to receive 19 bank financing for the acquisition so -- 20

Councilman Cohen

Had to receive. . .? 21

Mr. Chafin

They must qualify for a 22 bank mortgage, so they would have to have 23 pre-approval from a bank in order to be 24 considered. And then they were considered to their 21 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980271 contribution to the neighborhood. Do they volunteer in the neighborhood? Are they active in the community? Do they have family in the community? Family size. We wanted people who could use all the bedrooms that we had established. And I can't remember the fourth one -- it was a while ago -- I'm sorry to say.

Councilman Cohen

Have there been any complaints about any families not being able to acquire homes who wish to?

Mr. Chafin

Well, it's -- a very strong strategy for us is to bring new housing opportunities for the folks in the neighborhood. We think that there are many houses in the neighborhood that require too much fix-up for families starting out. Frankford historically has been a neighborhood for families to get their first house and to start and to build up equity and to build stability for their own families. So we've seen a critical demand for folks in new housing opportunities within the neighborhood, and we think this is a very strategy 22 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980271 investment not only in --

Councilman Cohen

Well, sounds very, very interesting. I'm just trying to see some of the parameters. I mean, what happens if a family gets rejected? I must assume that if you have many more applicants than you have units available --

Councilman Cohen

-- that some families must get disappoint if they're not accepted. Who makes the decision? Is it the Community Development Corporation?

Mr. Chafin

In this project, the process is -- everyone who applies is directed immediately to our mortgage counseling program to assist them in qualifying for a bank mortgage. And we have very good relationships with bankers, so we know which bank will have a greater appetite for each family; which bank will accept people without credit, say; or which banks will accept families with lower down payments or lower savings. And so we can strategize in finding the bank most likely to approve a certain family for a house. 23 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980271 Once that family is approved for a mortgage, these houses are on first-come-first- served basis. So the first one who is approved for a mortgage will get to choose which unit they would like to occupy.

Councilman Cohen

Did you say something in your general statement about the Group Ministry creating 250 housing units a year?

Mr. Chafin

We helped 250 families buy their first house, and these were houses available on the market; these weren't houses we developed.

Councilman Cohen

I think that's a tremendous record. I'm stunned by the number. How many years is that record?

Mr. Chafin

We've been able to do that for the last four years -- 220 to 250 each year for the last four years.

Councilman Cohen

So that it's close to a thousand houses.

Mr. Chafin

This year we'll celebrate our thousandth house, yes, sir.

Councilman Cohen

Well, I just think that's an amazing -- Mr. Eisenstat, is there any other group in the City that's performed to that 24 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980271 degree?

Mr. Eisenstat

I would suggest that question to Mr. Kromer. His office oversees the housing counseling groups. There are a number of groups. I would never say one is better than the other, but there are three or four CDCs that have active counseling programs. You'll hear from another one shortly. And I would describe this more as a baby contest than to describe which one's better than the other.

Councilman Cohen

But this seems to be a pretty outstanding --

Mr. Eisenstat

It is rather substantial. It makes a big difference in terms of the overall viability of a neighborhood in sustaining home ownership over the years.

Councilman Cohen

And you have a counseling staff?

Mr. Chafin

Yes, sir. I have two counselors and we'll add another one this year.

Councilman Cohen

How is that funded? Is it funded by a grant from OHCD, or is --

Mr. Chafin

A grant from OHCD.

Councilman Cohen

And does your group 25 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980271 obtain any income as a result of these transactions?

Mr. Chafin

No, sir.

Councilman Cohen

So your operating expenses are paid for by OHCD?

Mr. Chafin

From OHCD, right. And it's crucial -- we didn't want to enter into any conflicts of interest, so we don't accept fees from banks or from Realtors or from anyone else, because we really want to be on the side of the home buyer so that their interests are protected through the whole transaction.

Councilman Cohen

Is there a government subsidy involved? Because producing a house for 45 to $50,000 is itself a kind of miraculous.

Councilman Kenney

Maybe you ought to work for PHA. (Laughter.)

Councilman Cohen

Sorry.

Councilman Cohen

What's the nature of the government subsidy? Is that coming from a federal or a State grant?

Mr. Eisenstat

In this case, it will COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980271 either be from a community development block grant or Home Dollars. I believe in this case it will probably be Home Dollars. It's a direct subsidy right down to the differential between the construction costs and the actual first mortgage and equity, otherwise known as "the appraised value." It's hard to estimate what that number is today because we haven't fully designed the houses, and we haven't fully received appraisals. The object is, we continue to do this activity in Frankford over time while still maintaining affordability that there will actually be an increase in the sales prices -- not substantially, but we'd rather see a long incline than a long decline in values. We're still talking about providing units where people will be able to spend less than one third of their income on the housing units, but we do hope that this will help actually appreciate real estate values in the neighborhood.

Councilman Cohen

Whose dollars are the Home Dollars?

Mr. Eisenstat

They're City dollars 27 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980271 that come through the Year Community Development Block Grant Program.

Councilman Cohen

So that are they 5 basically -- is the origin federal? 6

Mr. Eisenstat

Yes, they are. 7

Councilman Cohen

And it goes through 8 the City pipeline? 9

Mr. Eisenstat

Correct. 10

Councilman Cohen

Directly from 11 federal to the City, or is there a State? 12

Mr. Eisenstat

Directly through the 13 Federal Reserve, at about Fifth and Market, to the 14 City. 15

Councilman Cohen

Okay, very good. 16 Thank you very much. 17

Councilman Kenney

Thank you very 18 much. 19 And, Councilmember, my experience, my 20 direct experience with this organization is that 21 they really do make a stabilizing difference in 22 the community 'cause what they do is they try to 23 find properties that are on the border of a solid 24 neighborhood that's being kind of infiltrated by some of the negativity, and they stabilize that 28 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980271 section. And their homeowners are an extremely diverse group of people of all ethnicities and backgrounds, they're all working people. And it really is one of those programs that make you feel good that government money's involved in it. Just one question for the record, and Councilwoman Verna had mentioned it. What's your grant from OHCD for your staff, how much?

Mr. Chafin

For mortgage counseling?

Councilman Kenney

Yeah.

Mr. Chafin

It's $40,000.

Councilman Kenney

So for three people, it's --

Mr. Chafin

I'm sorry, no, it's $69,000.

Councilman Kenney

So for three people, for $69,000, doing all that work is, again, seemingly money well spent.

Councilman Cohen

One other question.

Councilman Kenney

Yes.

Councilman Cohen

Is this rehab housing or new construction?

Mr. Chafin

Today we're talking about 29 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980273 new construction housing. We also have a moderate rehabilitation program. We've rehabbed vacant 4 houses also for sale, also for low-income or 5 moderate-income families. 6 And on those jobs, incidently, we're 7 able to do 100 percent of the labor with Frankford 8 workers. 9

Councilman Cohen

So you use the local 10 people in the community? 11

Mr. Chafin

Yes, sir. 12

Councilman Cohen

Well, that's 13 certainly very interesting and very effective, 14 apparently. Thank you. 15

Councilman Kenney

Thank you very 16 much. Thank you for your testimony. 17 Is there anyone else in the room to 18 testify on this bill? 19 (No response.) 20

Councilman Kenney

Seeing none, we 21 will now move to Bill No. 980273, which is an 22 ordinance amending an ordinance approved June 13, 23 1997, which approved the redevelopment proposal, 24 the urban renewal plan, and the relocation plan of the Redevelopment Authority of the City of 30 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980273 Philadelphia for the redevelopment of the New Kensington-Fishtown Urban Renewal Area, by approving the first amendment of the redevelopment proposal and the first amendment to the urban renewal plan which provide, inter alia, for certain additional land acquisition and provision of certain relocation services, as required by law, for the individuals, families, and business concerns which may be displaced. Mr. Eisenstat, please identify yourself and proceed.

Mr. Eisenstat

I would identify myself as Noel Eisenstat. I'm the Executive Director of the City's Redevelopment Authority. I'm here today now to speak on Bill 17 980273. I would describe that as the area known as "Number 2" on the larger map before you; and as you can see, within greater detail, the smaller map as well, known as the "New Kensington Fishtown Urban Renewal Area." The bill before you calls for the acquisition through eminent domain of a total of 43 vacant lots. There will be no relocation or no 25 demolition required in any of these parcels. 31 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980273 These parcels will be disposed of as side yards, parking areas, recreation areas, and supplemental open space to the neighborhood property owners. This is the second phase of what is known as the "Open Space Management Pilot Program," which has been a venture of the New Kensington Community Development Corporation, and the Neighborhood Gardeners Association, an affiliate of the Pennsylvania Horticultural Society. As you may recall, last year, at around the same time, City Council passed the first urban renewal proposal in this area, which called for the acquisition of approximately additional 15 properties. 16 Today I have with me John Carpenter, 17 who's the Executive Director of the New Kensington 18 Community Development Corporation as well as 19 approximately a half dozen or so individuals who 20 would be the beneficiary of these various side yards and vacant lots. This is an ongoing program that has had strong support from the City's Office of Housing and Community Development, and it is our real attempt on a neighborhood basis to reuse vacant 32 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980273 properties in an appropriate way with substantial community input. If it's okay, I'd like to have Mr. Carpenter say a few words about the program.

Councilwoman Verna

Please do, Mr. Carpenter. Identify yourself for the record and continue with your testimony.

Mr. Carpenter

My name is John Carpenter. I'm the Executive Director of the New Kensington Community Development Corporation. And I'm here today with nine families to speak in support of Bill No. 980273. New Kensington CDC has worked with dozens of neighbors who are seeking to acquire land adjacent to or near their homes. For many of these families, this legislation represents the last chance to acquire land that they have been taking care of for years. The New Kensington and Fishtown neighborhoods have had hundreds of vacant homes demolished in the past decades. In many cases, the land left behind has no developable value because of its location and small size. Much of this land is off the tax rolls and represents a 33 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980273 significant blight on the community. New Kensington CDC believes that this land is best used by its adjacent neighbors, allowing a reduction in the density of the neighborhood and greater amenities for those homes that remain. A yard creates a cool oasis in a hot city and allows children and families to enjoy a protected play space away from the street. Families and older residents enjoy the opportunity to garden or sit in the shade. The 43 parcels of land in this package will be given to more than 29 families and New Kensington CDC and will be used mostly for side yards, backyards and gardens. Some will be used for off-street parking. All of it is land that has been abandoned by its previous owners; and in many cases, the land has been taken care of by the neighbors who have now applied for the property through this program. On behalf of our neighbors, I urge you to support this legislation and help our community become a nicer and greener place to live. I'd like to ask for a moment that the people who are here from New Kensington stand to 34 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980273 demonstrate their support for the program.

Councilman Kenney

Please. (New Kensington residents stand to demonstrate their support.)

Councilman Kenney

Thank you very much for your attendance today.

Mr. Carpenter

And I'd be happy to answer any questions about the project if you'd like.

Councilman Kenney

Are there any questions for this witness? (No questions.)

Mr. Eisenstat

And we'd just ask for a suspension of the rules concerning this bill.

Councilman Kenney

At this time of the year, everything gets suspended.

Mr. Eisenstat

Okay. I'm still reminded to ask.

Councilman Kenney

Thank you.

Mr. Chafin

Thank you very much.

Councilman Kenney

Thank you very much for your testimony. Is there anyone else here to testify on behalf of this bill? 35 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980273 (No response.)

Councilman Kenney

Bill No. 980326 is an ordinance amending an ordinance approved December 15, 1969, as amended, which approved the redevelopment proposal, the urban renewal plan, and the relocation plan of the Redevelopment Authority for the City of Philadelphia for the redevelopment of the Model Cities Urban Renewal Area, by approving the 21st amendment of the redevelopment proposal, the 13th amendment to the urban renewal plan, and the 14th amendment to the relocation plan, which provide, inter alia, for certain additional land acquisitions and provision of certain relocation services, as required by law, for the individuals, families, and business concerns which will be displaced.

Mr. Eisenstat

My name is Noel Eisenstat. I am the Executive Director of the City's Redevelopment Authority. I'm here to speak on Bill 980326. And if you would allow me the opportunity, I'm also here to speak briefly on the subsequent bill, 980327. As you can see by the handout, this is -- I'm here today to speak on a number of land 36 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980326 acquisition --

Councilman Kenney

I'm confused as to why you're giving me testimony for both? Should I read them both together or --

Mr. Eisenstat

If you'd like to, I would appreciate it, but I don't know whether you can or. . . Legally, I don't know your --

Councilman Kenney

No, I'm just -- are they related?

Mr. Eisenstat

Well,, yes. If you look to the handout I've handed, in fact, the reason I point this out is simply that there is an over -- some of the projects overlap in urban renewal areas.

Councilman Kenney

Fine, okay.

Mr. Eisenstat

But both of my testimonies refer to the overlapping, so that simply let me see if I can describe it the following way.

Councilman Kenney

Fine.

Mr. Eisenstat

The first bill, 980326, which can be handled separately actually addresses six different projects. Let me see how my accounting skills are. 37 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980326 The first is the Spring Garden PHA Housing Development, which is the acquisition of five parcels in the Spring Garden section. This is an activity where the Housing Authority is taking the lead to rehabilitate a large number of PHA vacant -- occupied and vacant properties as well as six other vacant properties to be acquired for the rehabilitation of approximately 120 units of affordable rental housing. The Housing Authority, I would say, is in the process of selecting a joint venture of the Spring Garden Civic Association and the Community Builders as the developer of this activity. In this situation, we're here today to talk about the acquisition of five parcels that could otherwise not be acquired on the open market. The second activity is the acquisition of 12 parcels on behalf Community Ventures, Inc., which is working with the Francisville (ph.) CDC to construct 15 to 20 affordable rental units strictly reserved for senior citizens. This project is utilizing Year 23 funds as well as, hopefully, the use of low-income housing tax 38 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980326 credits. We expect this acquisition to be undertaken at about $84,000. The next acquisition is another activity of Community Ventures and the Francisville CDC, which is a Year home 7 ownership activity, which is the acquisition of 9 8 parcels, vacant lots, and vacant structures, no 9 relocation for the total of 15 home ownership 10 units. 11 After that, I would note on the 2200 12 block of Berks Street, the acquisition of one 13 vacant building, a two-story building that is, for 14 Project Home, who will be acquiring this project 15 so that it can be rehabilitated, utilizing the 16 Redevelopment Authority's home ownership 17 rehabilitation program. 18 I would then refer you to the 19 acquisition of two vacant lots on the 2600 block 20 of Fletcher Street for an existing business, 21 William J. Donovan Company. This is a project 22 that will provide additional expansion space. I 23 believe some of it to be parking and other 24 expansion of their existing manufacturing facility. The Authority will enter into an 39 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980326 agreement with Donovan directly, as well as certain costs will be funded by the Philadelphia Industrial Development Corporation. I would then note the acquisition of the 1600 block of North Broad Street, nine parcels. This is the area that will overlap the next testimony, and I can speak more to that later. I do have representatives here today from Project Home, Community Ventures, the Spring Garden Civic Association, and the Community Builders. I would suggest maybe if I can answer any questions first and, if necessary, we can identify these individuals, but I don't know if they all need to give testimony or not. That's your call, Council.

Councilman Kenney

Okay. Thank you very much. Are there any questions for Mr. Eisenstat on the projects? Councilmember Cohen.

Councilman Cohen

With respect to the rental projects you referred to in the Spring 40 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980326 Garden and the Francisville area --

Councilman Cohen

-- they're rental projects.

Mr. Eisenstat

Correct, they're all rental units.

Councilman Cohen

Now, who owns them currently?

Mr. Eisenstat

Currently, the -- let me first speak to the Francisville project. Today the Francisville project, the ownership of those units today, are 12 vacant properties that will be acquired, and then there will be constructed a new construction facility of 15 to 20 rental units for senior citizens.

Councilman Cohen

And who will own them when that --

Mr. Eisenstat

My belief is they will be owned by a limited partnership where the CDC and Community Ventures would act as the general partner or managing partner, and a low-income tax-credit syndication would occur wherein investors would take advantages of the low-income housing tax credits as the limited partner of a 41 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980326 general partnership.

Councilman Cohen

And so would it be a private venture?

Mr. Eisenstat

It would be a not-for-profit-owned venture with a for-profit limited -- a limited partner who is taking advantage of the low-income housing tax credits. The project would be subject to a regulatory agreement that would assure rental quality standards, housing quality standards to be met as well as affordability standards to be maintained for the or 30 years of the 14 development. 15

Councilman Cohen

Would the 16 Philadelphia Housing Authority play any role? 17

Mr. Eisenstat

In this project, no, 18 there would be no role of the Philadelphia Housing 19 Authority. 20

Councilman Cohen

Is there in any of the projects you mentioned?

Mr. Eisenstat

If I had an opportunity -- in discussing the next project you asked about, there is in fact a role of the Philadelphia Housing Authority. That is what I described as 42 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980326 the Spring Garden PHA Housing Development. This is a development of the acquisition of five properties to date through urban renewal, six additional properties which are being acquired by the joint venture of Community Builders and the Spring Garden Civic Association and the conveyance of approximately 30 owned PHA properties. These properties, along with these other properties, will be bundled and redeveloped as part of a mixed financing plan, not unlike the other ongoing PHA rental developments that you may have heard of over the last few years. In this situation, PHA issued a request for proposal -- otherwise known as "an RFP" -- and selected a joint venture of Community Builders and the Spring Garden Civic Association to serve as the community redeveloper of these units. PHA will assure that all of the PHA residents who live in Spring Garden in these effective units will stay and will remain as part of the development while there will be a net increase in total number of tenants because of the vacancies that will be replaced. All of the 43 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980326 public housing tenants here will be provided for rehabilitated units as part of the development.

Councilman Cohen

When you say the existing tenants will be provided for, does that mean they'll continue to live in that area?

Mr. Eisenstat

They'll continue to live in that area. They may live in their same unit; or they may, as part of the rehabilitation plan, move to another unit that's being rehabilitated as part of this development. But they will be given the absolute priority to be able to stay within the Spring Garden neighborhood and become part of this new development.

Councilman Cohen

And you say this is done in conjunction with the Spring Garden Civic Association.

Mr. Eisenstat

That is correct. The Spring Garden Civic Association and the Community Builders have established a joint venture development entity that will serve as the developer of this development on behalf of effectively the Housing Authority since the bulk of these units are currently in PHA inventory. 44 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980326 And it is envisioned and planned that PHA modernization dollars, as well as annual operating contribution contracts from the Authority will run to a majority, but not all of these units.

Councilman Cohen

Well, is the Spring Garden Civic Association a CDC?

Mr. Eisenstat

Yes, it is.

Councilman Cohen

So it's going to play a CDC role?

Mr. Eisenstat

Correct, with the talents and expertise of the Community Builders.

Councilman Cohen

All right, thank you.

Councilman Kenney

Thank you very much. Are there any other questions for Mr. Eisenstat? (No questions.)

Councilman Kenney

You had indicated in your testimony the number of groups that were here to support these projects and particular bill. Is there anyone here in opposition to this bill? This is Bill No. 980326. (No response.) 45 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980327

Councilman Kenney

Okay, thank you very much. We'll now move to Bill No. 980327, which is an ordinance amending an ordinance 6 approved December 22, 1987, which approved the redevelopment proposal, the urban renewal plan, and the relocation plan of the Redevelopment Authority of the City of Philadelphia for the redevelopment of the Cecil B. Moore Avenue Urban Renewal Area, by approving the 4th amendment of the redevelopment proposal, the 4th amendment to the urban renewal plan and the 4th amendment to the relocation plan, which provide, inter alia, for certain additional land acquisition and provision of certain relocation services, as required by law, for the individuals families, and business concerns which will be displaced. Please identify yourself for the record.

Mr. Eisenstat

Good afternoon. My name is Noel Eisenstat. I am the Executive Director of the Philadelphia Redevelopment Authority. I'm here today to comment on Bill 25 980327. This is within the Cecil B. Moore Urban 46 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980327 Renewal Area, which is actually located as Section 3 D of -- as an insert really within the Cecil B. Moore area. My testimony speaks today of the acquisition on behalf of four different developments. I would like to actually explain that the first three are all within the urban renewal area of Cecil B. Moore in its totality; and the last, which is the 1600 block Broad Street is not. I'm here to speak first on behalf of the acquisition of vacant properties -- parcels 14 in the blocks 15, 16, 17 and 1800 blocks of Cecil 15 B. Moore Avenue. Five of the 26 parcels are 16 vacant, and the remaining 21 conveying vacant 17 structures. The acquisition of these parcels will 18 be combined with inventory that is already 19 publicly-owned vacant parcels along the corridor. 20 The acquisition is at the request of the Commerce 21 Department and will make these properties 22 available for commercial development, along with 23 Cecil B. Moore Avenue corridor. This acquisition 24 is being funded by the Commerce Department. 25 The next is the acquisition of two 47 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980327 parcels located in an area known as "The Cecil B. ) Development," which is part of the City of Philadelphia's Home Ownership Initiative. Currently units of home ownership 6 are being developed in the 1700 block of North 7 18th Street as part of stage A of the Cecil B. 8 Moore project. 9 The two parcels to be acquired are 10 vacant buildings which will be rehabilitated into 11 single-family home units and incorporated in part 12 of the Home Ownership Zone Project. The estimated 13 cost associated with these acquisitions is 14 approximately $65,000. 15 And in addition, I would describe the 16 Home Ownership Zone as the areas bounded by Montgomery, North 17th, Master, and North 20th Streets. " This project involves the construction of a new charter school in the 1800 block of Cecil B. Moore Avenue between Gratz and North 19th 48 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980327 Street. The nine parcels to be acquired will be combined with the publicly -- with the -- with two larger assembled lots sustainable for development for a proposed charter school. The estimated costs of this acquisition is approximately $150,000, which is funded by the Women's Christian Alliance. The last parcel in this activity in this bill is the remaining parcels of the acquisition of the 1600 block of North Broad Street, located across from -- not far from the Temple Apollo across from the main campus of Temple University. This project consists -- is being acquired at the direction of the City through the Commerce Department and being funded by the City's Commerce Department and certain economic stimulus funds so that the City can undertake the negotiation and selection of an urban retail development on this blocks. This site is a large assemblage. And the Redevelopment Development Authority has already, at the direction of the City, acquired 49 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980327 the former Rite Aid site, otherwise known as 1624 to 1636 North Broad Street. There are 29 properties that will be acquired in the Cecil B. Moore Urban Renewal Area. Of these 29 properties, are buildings, 7 17 are vacant lots. Seven of the buildings may 8 require commercial relocation assistance, and two 9 may require residential relocation assistance. 10 These 29 properties will be combined 11 with the 9 properties which are currently being 12 acquired in the Model Cities Urban Renewal Area. The acquisition for these 29 properties is estimated at $506,000. The project is bounded by Cecil B. Moore Avenue, Broad Street, Oxford and North 15th Street. Those are the acquisitions within the Cecil B. Moore Avenue area.

Councilman Kenney

Thank you very much. Before we recognize Councilmember Ortiz, we're on the bill after the one you want to comment on, so I just want to make sure if there's any questions on Bill No. 980327 for members of the committee for Mr. Eisenstat. 50 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980326 (No response.)

Councilman Kenney

There are none. Is there anyone else in the room who wishes to testify on Bill No. 980327? (No response.)

Councilman Kenney

Seeing none. The Chair recognizes Councilman Ortiz for a comment he'd like to make on a previous bill, Bill No. 10 980326.

Councilman Ortiz

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'd just like to comment on the bill 14 related to the Spring Garden properties. This is a bill that, obviously, the community that is affected by the process and the issues that are being discussed here has no knowledge about. There's a situation which has not been discussed by the residents of those scattered-site housing. And I believe that it was tried like three years ago in which, in essence, I believe that this is an attempt to get rid of the last remaining parts of the Latino and other poor communities of the Spring Garden area. I reside there. I've resided there for 51 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980326 the last years. And without having a community discussion, without having a full, full breath in which the community can come together and discuss what this bill implies, what this bill's impact would be just, just like we did three years ago,. Mr. Noel Eisenstat, remember? That when John White brought the community together? All of the people that reside, all the families that resided in those houses were brought to a meeting, and the issues were discussed and what it meant, what were the implications, the process that was going to be done. And on that point, it became very clear that the issue was not just renovation but the removal of poor people from that area, the total gentrification of the Spring Garden area, at the detriment of the current residents there who are poor, working-class; and, in the great majority, Latinos. And so I would like this committee not to go forward with this situation until we have a full community meeting, until the community and the tenants that are going to be impacted by this are informed, and they know the full implications 52 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980326 of what is going to happen. This, again, doing it behind the closed doors, and it's going to be to the detriment. And, like I said, I believe the gentrification, the plan that was begun in the early seventies, the gentrification, the total gentrification of the Spring Garden area. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Councilman Kenney

Thank you very much for your comments. Are there any other questions or comments for Mr. Eisenstat on this bill? Councilmember Cohen.

Councilman Cohen

Just one question, Councilman Ortiz, are you referring to Bills 980326 and 980327?

Councilman Kenney

Just 326.

Councilman Cohen

Just 326 is the one bill.

Councilman Ortiz

(Inaudible, off-mike.)

Councilman Cohen

Has there been, Mr. Eisenstat, any involvement in the Latino in these discussions? 53 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980326

Mr. Eisenstat

Let me preface my discussion as saying that this is a project that is being undertaken by the Spring Garden Civic and Communities Builders. As it related to the issue of community involvement and making sure that individuals who have lived in these units were well-informed, it is my standing that the Housing Authority, along with the funding of the City's Office of Housing and Community Development, funded a consulting contract to fund an individual to actually undertake this outreach to work with the community, who lives both in the neighborhood but specifically with the PHA residents. And an individual has been hired to serve as their liaison and their facilitator in this matter. It's a gentleman by the name of Dom Molino (ph.), who actually has resided in Spring Garden for a number of years. At one point, I understand -- though I've never met Mr. Molino -- he used to work for the City's Department of Licensing and Inspection, and that he has been given the task of coordinating the community aspects with PHA while his contractual 54 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980326 arrangements work through the Office of Housing and Community Development.

Councilman Cohen

Is he here?

Mr. Eisenstat

No, he's not. We do have representatives, if you wish to speak with them, from the Spring Garden Civic and from the Community Builders. I would note that the public forum is clearly the appropriate place to discuss this matter, but we're talking about a 120-unit development, and the matter for today is relatively important. But, in scope, I would describe it as the acquisition of five parcels out of a development which entails the rehabilitation and new construction of 120 housing units.

Councilman Cohen

So the bill, 980326, deals with the acquisition of five of the vacant, or are they four vacant?

Mr. Eisenstat

All the properties that the Redevelopment Authority has been asked to acquire on behalf of this development are vacant properties. There will be no residential displacement to be caused by this acquisition.

Councilman Cohen

And by whom are they 55 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980326 owned, these five properties?

Mr. Eisenstat

They're owned by a spattering of land owners, who have owned these properties for a number of years. Some of these properties are, well, blighted to say the least; as well as some of them are also, well, tax delinquent as well.

Councilman Cohen

Are any of these five owned by the Philadelphia Housing Authority?

Mr. Eisenstat

No. The properties owned by the Housing Authority are the other 30 properties that I spoke to you about in my testimony that are currently, I would say, the majority of those are -- more than a majority of those are occupied, and that the Housing Authority would go through its process, and is going through its own process of the selection of a redeveloper in the disposition of these properties through a regulatory agreement, not unlike the other developments that PHA is now involved with private ownership and private management.

Councilman Cohen

How would we effectuate the kind of discussions that Councilman Ortiz was speaking about? 56 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980326

Mr. Eisenstat

I think that those -- some of -- I have not spoken to Councilman Ortiz. I did have one brief discussion with him a few weeks back about this matter when I knew it was to be posted. I would suggest that, although the Authority can be involved as well as the Office of Housing and Community Development, the bulk of the development issues really sound like PHA tenants and PHA inventory, and I would think that some involved with the PHA staff on Chestnut Street would be advisable as well. This project will also need a series of reviews and approvals from the PHA Board as well.

Councilman Cohen

All right.

Councilman Kenney

Thank you very much, Councilmember. Is there a representative from the Spring Garden CDC that would like to be on the record on this issue? (Spring Garden representative comes forward.)

Councilman Kenney

Good afternoon.

Mr. Rubin

Good afternoon. 57 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980326

Councilman Kenney

Please identify yourself for the record.

Mr. Rubin

Allen Rubin (ph.), and I'm a resident of the Spring Garden area and have been since 1968. I'm on the Board of Directors -- it is a five-person board -- of the Spring Garden Community Development Corporation. This is not the Spring Garden Civic Association. Of the five members that are on the board, Justino Navarro (ph.), a long-term resident of the neighborhood and his family has lived in the neighborhood for two generations. Manny Delgado (ph.) is a long-term -- he was born in the neighborhood, his father was born in the neighborhood, and his grandfather still lives in the neighborhood, and his grandfather lives on Spring Garden Street in a tower for the elderly. And his family lives in something called "The Spanish Village," which you may be familiar with, which is a 235 or 236 program. There are two members out of the five members, one of whom is a secretary basically, and that's her position. 58 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980326 So 50 percent of the active people on that board are Hispanic. And not only that, but they are very well respected, they are very active in the community, and they are very well aware of this proposal. Thank you very much.

Councilman Cohen

You heard Councilman Ortiz's concerns when he spoke. Would there be any problem in developing some kind of dialogue with the folks at PHA so they will know what's ongoing, and we could perhaps win their support?

Mr. Rubin

There is no intention here of deceiving anyone.

Councilman Cohen

We understand that.

Mr. Rubin

There is a meeting scheduled. The tenants in PHA have been informed and misinformed on this issue for a number of years by individuals, both private and in government. And that, unfortunately, continues. There have been people going door to door, trying to explain the nature of this proposal. And why the Councilman has his position. I have known him 30 years. He used to live at 22nd and Mt. Vernon. He now lives in 59 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980326 Francisville. I don't know if he has an objection to the Francisville proposal where he lives, but he seems to be objecting to ours. I don't think he's familiar with the Spring Garden CDC, and --

Councilman Cohen

Well, that's the reason I would like to see a discussion.

Mr. Rubin

I will try to explain to him. From this location, I will try to go to his office and explain to him who's on the Community Development Corporation. I don't know if it will do any good or not, but I certainly will explain the --

Councilman Cohen

Well, we need more than who's on the board. What we need is how do we give reassurance to folks in the PHA unit that this is not a part of gentrification process aiming at displacing them.

Mr. Rubin

Well, I've heard -- I mean, I've lived there for a number of years. This neighborhood has been stable for many years. I mean, in the sixties, I heard the word "gentrification," but I haven't heard it recently till today.

Councilman Cohen

It's not been heard 60 COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON RULES - BILL 980326 of for some years now. (Speakers talking over each other; dialogue unintelligible at this point.)

Mr. Rubin

Well, there are things that have come up from time. I do not believe that this proposal will change the economic or the racial configuration of Spring Garden at all.