COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC HEARING AND PUBLIC MEETING BEFORE THE COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania November, 18, 1998 9:38 a.m. - - - Bill No. 980549 - Convention Center Garage TIF. Bill No. 980705 - Jump Street TIF. Bill No. 980719 - St. James Court TIF. Bill No. 980746 - Brewery Park TIF. Bill No. 980794 - Amending Subcode PM of Title 4 of The Philadelphia Code entitled "The Philadelphia Property Maintenance Code". . . Bill No. 980621 - Sidewalk Behavior Bill No. 980641 - " " Bill No. 980685 - " " Bill No. 980715 - Re Naming of Public Buildings, Facilities (Full Text of Bills Attached.) PRESENT: COUNCIL PRESIDENT JOHN F. STREET COUNCILWOMAN AUGUSTA A. CLARK COUNCILWOMAN JANNIE BLACKWELL COUNCILMAN DAVID COHEN COUNCILWOMAN ANNA CIBOTTA VERNA COUNCILMAN JAMES F. KENNEY COUNCILWOMAN DONNA REED MILLER COUNCILMAN MICHAEL A. NUTTER COUNCILWOMAN MARIAN B. TASCO COUNCILMAN ANGEL L. ORTIZ COUNCILMAN FRANK DICICCO COUNCILMAN RICHARD T. MARIANO COUNCILMAN W. THACHER LONGSTRETH COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO - - - VINCENT VARALLO ASSOCIATES, INC. Registered Professional Reporters Eleven Penn Center, Suite 600 Philadelphia, PA 19103 (215) 561-2220 2 PUBLIC HEARING - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE I N D E X Page TIF Bills William Hankowsky, President. . . . . . . . . 5 Philadelphia Industrial Development Corporation 6 Brett Mandel, Assistant City Controller . . . 69 Kevin Babyak, Assistant City Controller 7 Sarto Schieckel . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 80 Architectural and Urban Designer John Lawson, John Lawson Architects . . . . . 97 Center City resident Bob Pearson, Private Citizen. . . . . . . . . 100 Philadelphia Resident Bill No. 980794 Blaine Bonham, Jr., Executive Vice President 103 Pennsylvania Horticultural Society, Deborah McColloch, Deputy Director . . . . . 125 Office of Housing and Community Development Phyllis Martino. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 163 Director of Economic Development, IMACT Lucy Ramos, Community Leader . . . . . . . . 164 North Philadelphia Empowerment Zone Miss Bodie . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 167 28th Ward, 6th Division Linda Wallace, Block Captain . . . . . . . . 170 1700 block of Marshall Street, C. Charles Carmichael. . . . . . . . . . . . 173 North Philadelphia Resident Rosa Lacend. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 176 Mt. Airy Civic Association 3 PUBLIC HEARING - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE (Index, cont'd.) Helen Green, Block Captain. . . . . . . . . 179 for Southwest Germantown Reger Street. Maryanne Patterson, Block Captain. . . . . . 182 1500 block of Wade Street Janet Bernstein. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 183 Frankford Group Ministries Paul Malvey. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 184 New Kensington Community Development Corporation Sidewalk Behavior Bills Michael Nardone . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 188 Deputy Managing Director Special Needs Housing Estelle Richman . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 191 Commissioner for Public Health John Gallagher, . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 193 Advisor to Police Commissioner Timoney Dean Kaplan . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 200 City's Budget Director Paul Stienke, Executive Director. . . . . . 212 University City District. Amy Williams, Chair . . . . . . . . . . . . 212 University City Community Council Abdul-Malik Muhammad. . . . . . . . . . . . 213 Ruth Burchette, Founder . . . . . . . . . . 254 Heritage Community Economic Development Corp. Paul Stiencke, Executive Director . . . . . 259 University City District (No testimony on Bill No. 980715) 4 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS P R O C E E D I N G S
Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. This is a hearing of the Council Committee of the Whole. We have a whole series of bills that are scheduled to be heard today by us. Bill No. The 980621, 980641, 980685, 980715, all of which have to do -- no, except 980715 -- have to do with the sidewalk behavior bill. Then we have Bill No. 980715 regarding signs, naming city name -- signs naming city building. And then we have Bill No. 980794, which extends the emergency nuisance abatements programs to cover vacant lots. In addition to those bills, we have four bills which cover proposed Tax Increment Financing Districts. What the Chair will do, at the request of Mr. Hankowsky and representatives of the administration, is take testimony on the four Tax Increment Financing bills first. We appreciate their being here today. I understand that they have another presentation before another governing body, whose approval is important to the 5 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS implementation of any of these bills, after which, we will hear the other bills. So if you are here on Bill No. 980621 or 614 or 685, or 980715 or 980794, which is the abandoned lot program, we probably will not be getting into those bills until about an hour or an hour and a half from now, at the earliest. So if there are people here on those bills, you have no 10 interest in the other, and you want to get lost for a little bit, this would be your time to take a break. Now, I'm advised that a quorum of the Council is present. And if I could have the attention of all Councilmembers, may I have the attention of all Councilmembers. I'd like to discuss with you what we do, how we handle the portion of the testimony that relates to the Tax Increment Financing Districts. We can do one of two things. We can have testimony on each of the bills, and then have discussion; or we could have testimony on all of the bills that are in front of us, all the Tax Increment Financing Districts, have the testimony on each of those bills, and then have discussion 6 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS -- and anybody who has any question on any of Tax Increment Financing District bills that are in front of us, we can have that discussion. Having been through this before, I would prefer it if we just have the testimony on the four bills and then have anybody raise any questions that anybody may have on any of the bills. Is there anyone who objects to that way of hearing these bills? (No response.)
We'll just ask Mr. Hankowsky -- the testimony, I understand, has been made available to Councilmembers prior to this hearing. We could have him and Mr. Fina tell us about each of the projects, and then we can have a discussion of any that we want. Seeing no objections, the Chair recognizes Mr. Hankowsky. I will first read titles of the bills. We are now on a public hearing on: Bill No. 980549, an ordinance creating the Convention Center Garage Tax Increment Financing District; Bill No. 980705, an ordinance creating 7 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS the Jump Street Increment Financing District St. James; And Bill No. 980719, an ordinance 5 creating the St. James Court Increment Financing District; Bill No. 980746, an ordinance creating the Brewery Park Increment Financing District (Bill Hankowsky comes forward.)
Thank you very much. Good morning, President Street and Members of City Council and today's Committee of the Whole. My name is William Hankowsky, and I'm the President of the Philadelphia Industrial Development Corporation and am appearing also on behalf of the Philadelphia Authority for Industrial Development or PAID. I'm here today to testify in support of Bill No. 980549, Bill No. 980705, 980719 and 980746. Today's hearing is required by the Pennsylvania Tax Financing Act to create or amend a TIF District. Should the committee approve these four bills, the TIF Act would then require 8 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS that Council wait until its meeting of December 10th for your second reading and final passage pursuant to the Act. Since the introduction of the four bills, PIDC representatives has met with City Council, Council staff, and representatives of the School District to review these project plans. On Monday November 9, 1998, the School District agreed by resolution to participate in all four of the districts before you today should they be created by City Council. For the remainder of my testimony, I would like to describe each project, review its benefit to the City and School District, and summarize any changes that have been made since introduction. These changes would then be reflected in the project plans. They've already been -- the new project plans have been provided to the city clerk. Let me start with the Convention Center garage. Approval of the Convention Center Garage TIF will enable construction of a 7-level parking structure to accommodate approximately 900 cars and 26,250 square feet of retail at the ground 9 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS level. This development will include foundations and column reinforcements for future development above the garage. million in incremental tax revenues over the 20-year life of the TIF. million in use-and-occupancy taxes. And I should note here that this represents 50 percent of the U&O tax; the remaining 50 percent would be continued to be provided to the School District. $600,000 in sales tax and $300,000 in business privilege taxes. 5 million to the School District over the 20 years the District exists. Since introduction, several changes have been made to the project plan. First, the property owner Filbert Streets Associates, will be composed of Theodore 10 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS and Maria Bollt and Parkway Corporation, but they may or may not be in that partnership in a 50/50 general partnership, which is the way it was in the plan. The percentage may change once they finalize the partnership. Number 2, increases in total project costs up to percent, which were originally to 9 be funded from "non-TIF sources," now will be more 10 specifically funded from private debt or equity. 11 Number 3, incremental use-and-occupancy 12 taxes have been limited by excluding any increases 13 due to the millage rate. 14 Number 4, the prepayment provision in 15 the TIF Note has been clarified to indicate that only the principal on the TIF Note might be prepaid. Number 5, the substitute loan provision has been clarified to indicate that the refunding is capped at the outstanding principal balance of the TIF Note at the time of the refunding. And 6 and finally, a new project schematic has been submitted that eliminates the pedestrian bridge to the Convention Center and reduces the Arch Street ramp area from 30 to 15 11 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS feet in width. The project plan, as I mentioned, as been restated to reflect the changes made since introduction is on file in the city clerk's office.
I also want to note on this project, an agreement in principal has been reached between Parkway and the Reading Terminal merchants, whereby a discounted parking program would be put in place to benefit the Reading Terminal using this garage in order to provide them with a solution to a long-term problem, which is a parking solution for the market. Jump Street. Approval of the Jump Street TIF will enable construction of a 245,000 to 320,000 square foot structure to accommodate retail space, a movie theater, and surface parking. 4 million in incremental tax revenues. 4 million in sales tax. 12 11/18/98 COMM. 4 million in tax revenues to the City, and 2 million to the School District over the 20 years the District exists. Since introduction, several changes have been made to the project plan: Number 1, certain residential properties which front on Cecil B. 7 acres to approximately 5 acres; Number 2, tax revenues were revised to show what I guess we now call the "liquor-by-the-drink tax," benefitting the School District. 4 million. And a decrease in the base use-and-occupancy tax from 6,000 to 5400. 4 million in the project plan. Tax increments 13 11/18/98 COMM. 4 under scenario B; Number 3, the District effective date was changed from July 1, 2000 to December 31, 1999 to more accurately reflect the project construction schedule; Number 4, the method and time of the financing section was amended to note that private funding may be substituted for all or part of the HUD 108 funds without further amendment to the project plan; 5. The prepayment provision of the TIF Note has been clarified to indicate that only principal on the TIF Note may be prepaid and that additional tax increments may be used to reimburse a guarantor, if any, of the TIF Note. 6. The substitute loan provision has been clarified to indicate again that refunding is capped at the outstanding principal balance of the TIF Note at the time of refunding; And 7, the section concerning related code changes was amended to indicate that a streets ordinance to widen and close off portions 14 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS of Carlyle Street will be required in addition to several zoning variances and permits. And those, obviously, will come before Council as this project proceeds. Again, the project plan has been restated and is on file with the chief clerk. St. James Court. Approval of the St. James Court TIF will enable construction of a 33-story tower and renovation of existing buildings to accommodate 328 residential units, 90,000 square feet of common or service space, 17,000 square feet of retail space, and a 332-car parking garage. 7 million in incremental tax revenues over 12 years. I should note that this is the one TIF that is not the full 20, but simply 12. And this was done in part to emulate the tax abatement we have put in place through Council's action to rehab older buildings and give them a 10-year abatement, so it was sort of a parity argument that we used here. Incremental tax revenue that is 15 11/18/98 COMM. 4 million in real estate states and 300,000 in use-and-occupancy taxes. 9 million in tax revenues to the City and 8 9 million to the School District over the 20 years 9 of the District. That's just to give you apples 10 to apples in the 20 years. 11 Since introduction, again, several 12 changes have been made to the project plan: 13 1. The gross square footage has been 14 reduced by 10,000 to 554,000. And the number of 15 apartments has increased from 320 to 328; 16 2. The number of construction jobs has 17 been corrected to 324 down, from the initial 612. 18 Project costs have been increased by 2 million, 19 which increase will be funded privately; 20 3. 9 million. 6 million to 9 million. And the 25 tax increment has increased from 15 million to 16 11/18/98 COMM. 7 million; 4.
Increases in initial project costs up to percent, which were originally to be 5 funded from "non-TIF" sources, will now be more 6 specifically funded from private sources; 7 5. Again, the prepayment provision of 8 TIF Note has been clarified that only the 9 principal may be prepaid; 10 6. And, again, the substitute loan 11 provision has been clarified that you can only 12 refund the outstanding principal balance of the 13 TIF at the time of the refunding. 14 And, again, the project plan has been 15 restated and submitted to the chief clerk. The final TIF is Brewery Park. Approval of the Brewery Park Tiff will enable renovation of a 250,000-square-foot, 7-story building to accommodate a supermarket, drug store, large apparel store, and several smaller retail outlets. 5 million in incremental tax revenues. 9 million in real estate taxes, 17 11/18/98 COMM. 7 million in sales tax. 8 million in revenue to the School District over the years of the 8 TIF. 9 The changes in this project plan are 10 two: 11 One is the prepayment provision 12 clarifying that only the principal of the Note may 13 be prepaid; 14 And the second is the clarification 15 that if there is a refunding, it can only be for 16 the outstanding principal balance. 17 And, again, the project plan has been 18 restated and filed with the chief clerk. 19 In closing, I would like to note for 20 the record that the analysis of each of the TIF Districts that PIDC has proposed indicates that the City and the School District will receive more tax revenue during the term of the TIF than if they had not approved the District and no project had proceeded. In essence, the City and the 18 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS School District are generating more than enough tax revenue for the TIF Notes by stimulating development of underutilized land that would not occur but for this TIF approval. We would ask for your approval of the four new TIF bills. And, again, we don't really need a suspension of the rules. What we need is, first reading can happen any time, but final passage can happen no sooner that three weeks, or your session December 10th. I should note that there are representatives here from each of the four projects from the development teams should you have any questions that you would like to address to them directly. Thank you.
Thank you very much. Is there anything else Mr. Hankowsky? Mr. Fina, do you have any remarks?
Thank you very much. The Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter.
Thank you very much. Good morning, Mr. Hankowsky and Mr. Fina. 19 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS Mr. Hankowsky, I actually do not have any direct questions so much about the four TIF Districts in front of us. I do want to focus, though, on a couple policy areas and on the last page of your testimony. We've had discussion in the past with regard to these TIFs. I guess it's important for me to state for the record that I do think that the tax increment financing tool is a good tool to have in the arsenal and, when used appropriately, can, in fact, stimulate development in areas where virtually nothing may take place under certain circumstance. So I start with that premise. Can you refresh my recollection, though, based on the statute that allows us to do TIFs, what tax are eligible to be "TIFed," if you will, and what taxes are not eligible?
Yes. Under the statute, the taxes that are "TIF-able" -- if that's a term -- are real estate taxes.
It is in Philadelphia. Real estate taxes, use-and-occupancy taxes, which 20 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS are 1 percent of the sales tax, and the business privilege tax. Taxes that are not TIF-able include the wage tax, transfer tax, amusement tax, parking tax, the liquor-by-the-drink tax. So those are not TIF-able.
Okay. And so of the taxes that are eligible -- real estate tax, use-and-occupancy tax, real estate tax -- there's a split of 45-55 between the City and the School District, and use and occupancy is all School District?
The 1 percent sales tax essentially comes to us to help fund our outstanding PICA debt. And the last was --
Business privilege taxes all of the City of Philadelphia. But between and amongst that array of four, certainly real estate use and occupancy are the largest generators of tax dollars. Well, business privilege is significant in the City. 21 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS
Well, in terms of these kinds of transactions specifically versus sort of the City General Fund budget, yes, real estate and use and occupancy, in almost all instances, out of the TIF-able taxes, are the largest generators. And additionally, from a financing perspective, in other words, understanding that what we really do here is provide a revenue stream that services a debt service on effectively a mortgage. And the technique we use here is to, in fact, say to the prospective developer, It is your obligation to go find these funds, borrow them, and then we allow you to use this stream to pay them off. So in terms of their then subsequent negotiations with that lender, the real estate and U&O are viewed as the most stable, predictable, dependable debt-service payers.
Okay. And that is why, in most of the deals, with the exception of one we're seeing in recent times, when the project plans are on the fact sheets, when we talk about the return back off of those taxes, out of these deals, that is generally why there's a fairly 22 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS significant difference between the taxes coming back to the City versus the School District because of the impact that the "TIFing," if you will, of real estate and use and occupancy has a much greater impact on the School District than it does on its City of Philadelphia. Is that a fair statement?
That's a fair statement you're right. If you look at the history of the program, you know, there have been instances where we've done just real estate. So in that instance, the School District gets all the U&O. And if it's a proportionality -- if the proportionality seems good, if you just do real estate and U&O, the proportionality doesn't look as good.
And because of the statute, I mean, we have no ability, unless someone was to go off and want to spend a couple years of their life trying to rearrange the array of taxes that you can abate or not abate, we're 23 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS stuck with the four, and we try do the best that we can by way of putting these deals together. Is that accurate?
You know that I've expressed a concern -- both privately and, I believe, in past public hearings publicly, and I'm sure we'll continue this discussion -- about the impact of these deals when you break out the taxes or look at what's coming back, the disparity between the City and the School District, but we are stuck with the array that. We've also had discussions, though, about how we can rearrange the returns to those two entities. And I've pretty much taken the position that between these two separate governmental entities, the City is certainly in a much better fiscal -- not perfect, but certainly much better as compared to the School District and what opportunity is there to change the mix on the return of whether, because of statute constraints or policy positions that we take on how the taxes are going to be redirected once they come back. I asked you about a day or so ago, and 24 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS you and Mr. Fina probably unfortunately put in a few extra hours putting together a chart for me of all of the TIFs that are even done -- there are eight -- and now proposed, which are six, four of which are in front of us today and the other two will have their own public hearings, and I appreciate that. Do you have copies of that chart that I asked you to put together?
Right. Well and you didn't correct the mistakes I didn't catch, right? (Laughter.)
If I could ask the sergeant-at-arms to get those charts. And I don't want to go through all the mechanisms, but it does lay out what comes back to the City over the 20 years and over the annual.
It looks at the totals on the private financing that's gone into all these deals as well as the public support, 25 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS whether through TIF or other sources of funds.
And, one, from a development standpoint, it tells a pretty good story, that we have with these four deals about $2 billion worth of investment taking place throughout the City. And in many of these deals, I think we could agree probably would not happen without a TIF. There are others that we may have some dispute about, but we won't argue about those here in this forum. Is there any ability or is there any prohibition when you look at the difference between what comes back to the City under the TIF circumstance or if you evaluated all these deals without a TIF and if they all happened, which we could agree may not be the case, but if they all happen without a TIF, then there's a fairly significant difference between what comes back to the City and the School District tax-wise versus what comes in under the TIF circumstance. And I would only pose the question for today as to whether or not we can try to evaluate these deals and look at the mix of taxes that do 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS come back under TIF or what would come back with no TIF and try to make up the gap or the deficiency between what the District could get and what the District will get. If you believe in the numbers on this sheet as compiled by yourselves, we do make presently some annual contribution to the School District by agreement, and I know it's been a one-time thing for the past couple years. But if there's a policy decision made that we would like to at least leave them in a hold-harmless position, I would like to at least pursue and explore that possibility. The second is -- and we've asked about this before -- is the policy on how you decide whether a project gets a TIF or not. And I don't want to take these four projects through that discussion. What I would like to ask is, soon, and very soon, if we could have anything that is written as to how you evaluate whether a deal should get this particular tool or other tools that we've put on the table. Because I am left in a position and we seem to create an environment that says if you don't ask for one as a developer, you could virtually be considered negligent -- 27 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS
-- on your client's behalf. That almost anyone with a good idea or a good proposal could or should, in fact, get this tool and -- I recognize you have to make a fair amount of investment to encourage companies to get here. My concern is, where does it stop?
And how far do we go? And the numbers are starting to get up there. Your chart indicates that we are close to about a half a billion dollars in TIFs for those 14 deals.
Are there any statutory caps on this? Or how far can we go?
The statutory cap is a function of your total assessed valuation. You cannot TIF more than 10 percent of the total assessed evaluation of the City. That's the what it's capped. We are far from there.
I think our total assessed valuation is somewhere in the trillion-dollar range or something, isn't it? 28 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS
Okay, all right. Those are the two concerns that I have. The deals are the deals themselves, I'm not going to nitpick through the particulars.
Can I just make two comments in response. I appreciate -- those really weren't questions per se. But, one, on the issue of how this technique affects the City versus the School District, and as you indicated, we've discussed this several times and I'm not here today to speak on behalf of the administration (unintelligible) on School District funding, which is a complex issue.
No, we could bring one of the administration people up and rake them over the coals.
But I think the only point I want to make is that on the one hand, we're sort of given a statute that Pennsylvania wrote, the legislature wrote, that was a kind of one-statute-fits-all.
So, you know, it may not have included wage tax because, in fact, you know, not many communities have it and we have the biggest one, etc. So we kind of looked at it, and okay, what does everybody have more in commonality.
And then they made some decisions, and they did it. So we're basically handed a technique and we attempt to use that technique the most efficient way we can to effectuate the projects. But then the question does become one that's at another level, which is then, given we've done that, how between the City and the School District should there been some subsequent reconciliation of the support each has provided to these projects. And I don't deny that's a question that deserves some discussion at some time.
-- the direct 30 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS discussion about the deals.
We could look at what happens at the end of the year --
We could take your numbers for what they are and say, Without a TIF, the District would get in annual revenues for these deals $25 million a year. 12
Right. We did -- at different points, we have taken a look at whether there's, in effect, any way within the TIF process to do this reconciliation. And it seems as if legally, there is not.
In other words, if we don't TIF the tax or if we -- we can't in the TIF process then say, Okay, School District, now you're going to get the sales tax on this one.
I mean, you know, the 31 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS statute says what happens.
I mean, if that's the constraint, I mean, then the question is, if the City, without a TIF, would get $59 million and the School District would get million, and that 7 with the TIF, the City gets 26 and the District 8 gets 11, then at least on the School District 9 side, there's a $14 million gap. 10
And then you ask, 12 Well, if the City's in a better financial position 13 than the School District and away from the TIF 14 project process and constraints, should the City, 15 in fact, do something with the School District to 16 get them back to where they would be without a TIF 17 for a project that might happen anyway? 18
I mean, that for me 20 is the question. And that's a function of who's 21 in the better position to do anything with their 22 finances, especially when you're talking about net 23 new money. 24
Right. And my only 25 last two comments, and I'll try to make them 32 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS quickly is, we've tried to be sensitive to this issue generally.
So to the degree, except on the garage project, we sort of pushed back and said, You can't have all the U&O, how about -- you know, would 50 percent be enough so the District would have a revenue source.
There's one that's coming that is not a subject of today where, in fact, the U&O was not TIFed at all. So we try to be sensitive; though, in all cases, it doesn't work.
The second point I wanted to make -- my last point, actually -- is with regard to providing this technique and evaluating etc. PIDC, I guess we probably do about a hundred financial transactions a year, at least in the last couple years. Times have been good, so business has been good. And, as you indicated, we've got eight historic TIFs and 4 today and 2 33 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS others in the process currently before Council. So this is not a technique that we aggressively -- we don't market this. We don't go out and say, Please apply for TIFs in the way we do, you know, let's all go after SBA loans and let's all go after State loans. We do look at transactions to see whether they can be done without this technique, through the more -- I'll use the term "standard economic tools" we have available. And so at least, for the record, I'd like to -- I mean, we look at this to some extent as a technique of last resort, one that we would not want to use, you know, all the time. And -- but when we get there, then we make a decision, an evaluation. And I appreciate -- we all then, in the end, share the judgment of whether without this technique can this proceed. And our judgments are that, in these cases, they would not.
My last comment would be, though, that the fact that they have been used and they are fairly well-publicized does put you, though, in a difficult position. 34 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS
Yeah, we are saying "no" more often. That is accurate. People are now coming in, saying, Can I get one of those? and we say no. 6
Right. Because the last guy got one and I really need it.
And so you do reach a point where someone does have to say no. 11
And are there other things that we can do to help you out.
And, you know, versus, Well, you know, everybody else got one; I should get one.
So, I mean, I'm concerned about -- I'm not saying that you're over-abusing it.
Having 14 in 2 years, I mean, in the scheme of 2, 3, 400 transactions is not a whole lot. They're big, 35 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS high-profile deals, significant impact, and I'm concerned about how far we go down the path without clear guidelines.
At least guidelines that are clear to us. They may be clear internally; they're not clear particularly to me or to the general public.
Mr. Hankowsky, one of Councilman Nutter's questions caused me to have a couple questions.
Do I correctly understand that the base taxes that are applicable to the City and the School District on these projects don't change?
They do not change. 36 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS
You exclude the real estate, U&O, or any taxes that -- whatever it is currently coming in going to continue to come in.
Whatever it is currently coming in is going to continue to come in.
So that what we are doing is, we're saying, If we do this, if this is done, fundamentally, the private investment with the public investment is likely to yield this, whatever it is. And then we say, If it yields this, that this is likely to be divided into these parts: School District, City. Because it is only the School District and City that are the recipients of any of these taxes.
That is correct. Oh, except if we do a hotel, and then we -- 37 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS
But our analysis is what we do here and how it benefits the City and the School District. I just want to make sure that in all of this discussion, nobody is taking anything away from the School District.
That's right. We're not taking anything away. The question is what if any rational approach we have to dividing up the increased spoils or taxes that result from this economic activity we're stimulating with the use of this device called "TIF." Is that correct?
And is it fair to say that the share of the real estate taxes that get pumped back into the City and into the School District, after whatever it is that happens, when the TIF Note is up and it's paid, it goes back to these two entities in the same proportionate share 38 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS that it currently is.
Right. And is it also fair to say that the big benefit that the City gets that the School District doesn't get is the wage tax.
Right. So that when you see the difference in what the School District nets out of all of this and what the City nets out of all of this, the thing that drives the City number up is the wage tax. Is that it?
Oh, yes, absolutely. As you know, it's, what, 40 percent of our total General Fund tax revenue?
So that if we wanted to increase the yield of all of this to the School 39 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS District, we have to do some kind of swap. I mean, we'd have to give the School District a higher percent of the wage tax, we'd have to at some point in time shift millage to the School District, from the City to the School District if we wanted the School District to get more money out of all of this. We couldn't do it in this transaction.
So that if, some years from now, this money starts materializing, and if we wanted to say, Well, we think we want to do a little bit more for the School District than what we would do is, we could shift millage from the City to the School District to compensate for the fact that the School District is getting less of a return out of the TIF program than the City is getting.
Yeah. If 100 percent of the real estate taxes went to the City and some percent of wage went to the School District, these 40 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS numbers would change dramatically.
But the way that we could -- if we thought we wanted to as a matter of public policy put more money into the School District as a result of all of this, at whatever point in time, the appropriate thing to do or a legal thing to do would be to shift millage from the City to the School District because, in theory, the City would be getting the wage taxes. Councilman Nutter?
Thank you, Mr. President. Or, just on the same point, or, as I mentioned earlier, with kind of the ongoing one-time transfer that we've been making to the School District.
We could just increase the one-time amount by whatever the difference is between what the District would receive in a no-TIF situation versus what the 41 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS District receives in a TIF situation. And based at least on the chart, that difference is $14 million. So we would say at the end of the year, I mean, whatever it is we're giving now, if we believe in the numbers, when all of this is done, we would add $14 million to that figure and then not touch millage rates or anything like that because we're going based on what the chart tells us and what the calculations are. We could do it that way.
Well, I think that's probably something we could do. We might want to allow some time to make sure that these numbers do what it is they say they're going to do.
And the reason I would suggest that is because we make that evaluation every year based on what's going on. If we start changing millage rates, then we're locked into that --
-- or every year, we're messing with tax rates and, you know, it then becomes the "T-word." 42 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS If we make the annual decision based on what actually comes in and what the results are, you know, it's $14 million one year, maybe it's million, maybe it's million. But then we're 6 making that decision based on what actually comes 7 in without touching tax rates. 8
And if I could, one 9 supportive comment is, these annual numbers are 10 the average. It's the only way to do it. So we 11 look at -- you assume inflation and everything, so 12 it's not this number every year. It actually 13 starts much lower. It's much higher the 20th 14 year. This is simply the average. 15 So it's dangerous -- I just want to 16 make the point that when these open, you don't have 14 million that year.
Thank you very much. The Chair recognizes Councilman Cohen.
Mr. Hankowsky, can you explain to us the difference between a TIF and 43 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS a tax abatement?
Yes. A tax abatement is a situation whereby, again, legislatively, there's State statutes and then generally Council must, by ordinance, enact those abatements. Whereby a party -- and, as you know, there are many -- there's a residential one and an industrial and commercial, and now we have one for rehabable old buildings. But nonetheless, whatever it is, where, if you execute a project pursuant to whatever the abatement rules are, that then for some period of time -- and they vary under the various programs -- you simply pay no real estate taxes on the increased value of whatever it is you have built. You continue to always pay what's called "the base," whatever it was when you started. And so it is a tax elimination program, so to speak. That's what an abatement is. It's a cost not levied on a project for a discrete period of time. What happens under a TIF is that all taxes are due and payable. In fact, you cannot have an abatement if you have a TIF. You must 44 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS pick one technique or the other. So if you have a TIF, you pay all taxes due and payable and then by project, and this is the way it works under the statute. Then a determination is made and, again, with Council's concept to take that tax stream and, in effect, put it back into the project to pay the debt service on a borrowing. And that borrowing pays a portion of the cost of the project. Those are the distinctions between the two.
Specifically to a particular corporation, which is the more beneficial approach?
There would be no 17 general answer to that question because it may well vary by the corporation and by what it is -- what business it's in or whatever. The TIF technique deals very much with the question of financing a real estate development project. It really doesn't deal with the business that's going to necessarily occupy the space. So -- and what I mean by that is, when 45 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS people look at trying to finance, you know, the PNC operation center or a hotel or whatever, they'll either look and say, We can borrow this much money in the private sector but we have a gap, the private sector won't lend any more, could you fill the gap with the tax stream and then we can borrow more money because we have the tax stream to pay the debt service. That would be what I would call an "access-to-capital" problem. The other time it comes up -- PNC, I think, is an example of this, the operation center -- is a situation where people are looking at the cost of doing business and looking at, in that case, if you recall, which was the first one we did, there was a severe competition underway. New Jersey was trying to induce this operation to both leave us and take the growth of it. And so for us to be competitive, the TIF was dealing with the cost of doing business. The one problem that you have between abatements and TIFs is abatements -- and I'm not a lawyer, so I don't have an esquire, Councilman, but I'll try to a little bit go into this. Abatements, under the state uniformity 46 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS clause, generally we have to set up a class of taxpayer. And then an abatement is a matter of right. So no matter who you are, as long as you meet the test of eligibility, you get the abatement. We cannot negotiate abatements in Pennsylvania. If you read The New York Times, you'll see that in New York City, "New York City Negotiates to Save NBC," and they're going to provide them $100 million in tax relief. Well, that's actually literally a negotiation. They have the capacity in New York to negotiate an abatement. No such capacity exists in Pennsylvania by the Constitution. TIFs, because the taxes are paid, end up being a technique that can used with a very sort of precise transaction, you know, one transaction at a time. We can say yes, we can say no. And if we say yes, we can say how much and when and under what set of conditions. So it is not a matter of right that you can just get a TIF by meeting some test. We all have to agree each one each time.
But from the point 47 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS of view of the corporate benefit achieved, isn't it largely a distinction without a difference? You have different procedures applicable to the abatement, I think. But to the world, in general, as well as to the corporations, it's one way or the other way of obtaining a benefit that other citizens don't get? And I raise it particularly. Yesterday, I had occasion to meet with two groups of people. One was a community group out in the Northeast that talked about the fact that they can't get street lights improved on their particular street; and yet, it seemed to them, the City was giving way money to big, rich corporations. And then I met with a group of artists who said they've been trying for years to get some special consideration for their needs. They thought artists were a special, unique group in Philadelphia. Probably we're the most friendly town generally, historically over 100 years to artists than any other place in the country. Yet the struggle of individual artists just falls on deaf ears. For example, they look 48 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS for cheap real estate where an artist, say, can play a cello, you know, without disturbing too many residential folks, where they have very small incomes. And they say they've been never be able to get any relief from anybody in the City government; and yet, they see these giant corporations getting those huge sums of money. And it's very difficult for us to explain that kind of situation, you know, to folks out in the community who aren't as well versed as you. And perhaps even us, even we're not too well versed in abatements and TIFs. So that's the reason I raise the question. Aren't these just different forms of making resources available to various corporate structures, developers who produces a Disneyland, Kvaerner, you know, Rittenhouse Hotel, you can name all kinds of groups. How do you justify that as a matter of City policy? And what would you say to the community groups?
I would make a perhaps a simple argument; whether it would be persuasive is a different question but -- 49 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS
I can tell you, it is a real difference. I tied to explain it.
But I didn't get any applause when I-- (Unintelligible; parties talking over each other.)
It's pretty simple, Councilman. I think there's a fundamental truth that we must all keep in front of us, which is for all of the success, for which this Council should be congratulated, over the last several years of bringing the City fiscal stability. You know, it's nice to be able to say we have surpluses, it's nice to see our bond rating go up. We are still in a massive competitive fight to keep jobs and business and activity in this city. As you may have noted a couple weeks back, an independent study group annually looks at the cost of doing business and business taxes in various cities across the United States. And though Philadelphia was in first place for the largest decrease in business taxes, we still ended 50 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS up being in last place -- i.e., we were still the most expensive environment for business to operate in out of the largest cities in American. And these companies and businesses and job, unfortunately, are very mobile today. And they can be here or not. And so I do not look at this as, quote/unquote, corporate give-aways. We do not look at these as ways to make these businesses more profitable. What we, unfortunately, are forced to look at is a situation where they can be as profitable in Philadelphia as they could be if they weren't here. And if keep them here, as was mentioned earlier in the questioning and comments, then we do enjoy the wage taxes, parking taxes. Whatever the activity is, we enjoy a tax stream that's available to pay for street lighting and do the other activity that this city undertakes. So what you could -- what I look at, then, is not just the column of what is going to the project; I also look at the columns about what's going to go to The city and School District if we do these projects. These taxes will not be 51 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS available if don't do them. Then you all -- and I appreciate you. I only have to deal with a little subset of decisions; you have to deal with all the decisions of public policy. And then determinations have to be made once you have those additional increases on how we should apply them. Should we increase funding for the School District, deal with street lighting, whatever. And that's the classic opportunity cost of public policy. But I think this is essential. I wouldn't be here if I didn't believe that it was essential that we do this to remain competitive, to have the benefit of this activity in Philadelphia.
Let me ask you, in carrying out your work, is it essential that you read articles like the article in Time Magazine by Steel and Bartlett, the Philadelphia reporters who now work for Time? Or is it required that you not read that article?
Well, for your carrying out your official duties. 52 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS
I am -- read both praise and criticism. So I read the article. I would have to say that I think the analysis is significantly flawed.
Well, because the particular transaction they critiqued in Philadelphia was the Kvaerner transaction. And they had a little box that --
They made a little box. And I think everybody needs to understand what's going on in the world. We had a 90 percent probability that that shipyard was going to be mothballed forever, and tumble weed would roll through it, and there would never be a job there. There are closed 53 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS shipyards around the world. The French just closed one of their national shipyards in the last month. So shipyard capacity is not something that's, you know, so valuable that people run in and take it and open a shipyard. So in order to have the capacity --
Mr. Hankowsky, I'm going to ask you to shorten that answer 'cause we have a whole lot to do here today.
Okay. The bottom line is, I think it was a good deal. And we had to do it to make it happen. And I think the benefit clearly justified the transaction.
Thank you very much. You know, I want to make just a very brief comment. There was a time in this city when you would never have -- this Council would never have had in front of it a Brewery Park TIF or a St. James Court TIF or a Jump Street TIF, which are neighborhood-oriented developments. And I will tell you that I think that this is precisely what we need to be doing and I don't have -- I have no quarrel whatsoever with 54 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS any of the issues raised by Councilman Nutter about what we do with whatever money is generated. We decide that every year on an annual basis. And sometimes we give more money to the School District, and sometimes we put other money in other economic development activities. Those are annual decisions that we make. But I think that this administration, including the men sitting at the table, ought to be congratulated for hearing us as a Council and hearing people in this city when they have said, What about us in the neighborhoods? I'm telling you, in north central Philadelphia, we've been talking about having a 45, 50,000-square-foot supermarket where people from Fairmount and Spring Garden and North Philadelphia, all the way up to the Strawberry Mansion, can go to get first-quality food and have all the amenities that everybody else has in the neighborhood. And this is going to help do that. And, you know, we can nitpick around the edges at whether or not the broad policy questions. This city doesn't live in a vacuum. And people who write articles for Time and all 55 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS these things, they can pick and choose the things that they want to take. It is possible to pick apart anything that we ever do at any time, it really is. But those people, they don't have the responsibility of looking into the faces of people out there and having them say to us, What about a supermarket? There are people, for example, who shop at Progress Plaza who are working overtime to get that supermarket open. There are people who lived in --
That's right. There are people live in Yorktown -- and Councilwoman Clark will tell you -- who go to the supermarket Progress Plaza every day, hoping that it's open, every single day. People live in and around there are people in and around Cecil B. Moore Avenue who have been looking to see something happen out there for 30 years, 30 years. And now they have some hope, now they have some hope. And, you know, I care a lot about the School District and about the mix and how we 56 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS should do something about all of that. But what we should do is take whatever tools we have to spur economic development in this city, and we ought to use them in a way that takes care of Councilman DiCicco's concern and all of our concern that we have parking in and around a facility, a convention center that we have put $500 million in. And we ought to make sure also that we do some of the things that we can do in the neighborhood. I think, frankly speaking, that we are trying to show a little balance here, we are trying to show a little balance here. So however flawed this process is, whatever anybody can take and write bad about it, what we're trying to do is make sure that all of the citizens of this city benefit, they benefit because we're trying to shore up a significant part of our economic development strategy, and they benefit because we're taking this device and using it in neighborhoods under circumstances and terms and conditions that 10, 15 years ago, people would have said is impossible. And I know that because that's what they were saying then. 57 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS And so I think the fact that we have in front of us three neighborhood TIFs that provide some hope for people out there that, A, there's going to be jobs for them, and B, there are going to be services for them that otherwise would never be available, is something that's a good thing. It is a good thing. Now, there are going to be people around, you know, who are never going to understand or never agree. God bless them, because they're entitled to their opinion. And I think, Councilman Cohen, we have a right to respect their opinions, to hear their opinions. But we can't stand still, we have to do what we can, whatever tools we have to make sure that everybody in this city benefits from our economic development strategy. And this is a part of what I see this as being. Councilwoman Clark?
Yeah. With respect, say, to the supermarkets, you and I attended the 58 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS same sessions together with several other hundred other attorneys, continuing legal education. And I think you and I were in the same seminar where a representative of Mr. Hankowsky's organization spoke. I think you had to leave a bit earlier for another meeting that day. I raised the questions of supermarkets. Progress Plaza, the one particularly in my area at Broad and Godfrey, and throughout the whole city, where neighborhoods are struggling without it. I don't see the relevance of the TIF situation where the projects are going to take many years to fulfill and dealing with those supermarket problems now. And my experience has been dealing with the City in relation to particularly the supermarket at Broad and Godfrey, and I've been watching the problems at Progress Plaza. I don't see the connection because the folks that want the supermarket say, Why aren't we given that kind of assistance to build up our neighborhoods? All of the projects -- I'm not arguing with any of those projects, they're all 59 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS worthwhile. But I'm saying that the City support ought to also go out to neighborhood economic developments that would provide us with --
Councilman Cohen, that's what 31st and Thompson is, that's what Broad and Cecil B. Moore is that's what St. James Court is. I mean, these are neighbor projects. And maybe we need to get to -- I know the Commerce Department and Mr. Hankowsky, they're working overtime trying to make certain that supermarket in Progress Plaza, even though it's small even though it's not what typically happens, they're working overtime to try to get it to happen. If we need to get PIDC and others involved in a discussion about what happens and what can be done to deal with Broad and Godfrey, then we ought to be doing that. Nobody's opposed to that.
I certainly agree we ought to be doing much more in those areas.
If I could just note for the record, I mean, we did yesterday, at PIDC, approve a loan for Progress Plaza 48 hours after we got it. So we're, I think, aggressively trying 60 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS to pursue that one. We also financed earlier this year the acquisition by a Philadelphian of two closed food stores in West Philadelphia. So, again, I mean, we are --
Mr. Hankowsky, and I don't want to get into it 'cause I know the Councilwoman is waiting. But you know what? And I appreciate that, but there's nothing you can do for the one at 26th and Girard. We lost a supermarket at 26th and Girard, and people complained and they demonstrated and they said bad things about us, we couldn't save it. But we were able to do -- to have this proposal before us today to put one at 31st and Thompson. So, some we can and some we can't. But we do the best we can under the circumstances, and I wouldn't want anybody to now start having a big problem with the Tax Increment Financing proposal now that we have -- we have sort of refined an approach to moving it out in the neighborhoods and trying to do some things. We had discussions about this, the mayor and myself and other people, way early on, 61 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS that if we're going to be able to do TIFs, we have to be able to do 'em in neighborhood and do some things that people out there in those communities are looking for. And that's what we have here today. I see Councilwoman Clark looking at me as if to say, "Can I be recognized."
Right. I'd like to have the next presidential moment.
I really do think that we ought to be able to use this device which is at our hand to make a difference in neighborhoods. I'm particularly concerned about the supermarket situation because, to follow onto Mr. Cohen's comment, how does it help? A supermarket adds to the quality of life in a neighborhood -- I'll pick up Jim Kenney's term," QOL. This is a quality-of-life issue. And if you've got to get in a car and drive blocks and blocks and blocks to get jus such a basic as groceries, you are hurting the neighborhood that you leave, you are taking dollars away getting, and you are giving that 62 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS level of employment to somebody else's neighbors, not your own. And to the degree that you're taking money out of your neighborhood, you're harming the neighborhood. So, of course, we need to have supermarkets. And if we're not doing enough of it, then we need to raise the volume on our insistence until the Godfrey Avenue market gets the responsiveness that it deserves. I'm particularly eager to see projects in North Philadelphia get wings and dollars because there has not been any substantial investment in North Philadelphia since the riots of the sixties, when banks redlined us and insurance companies wouldn't touch us it, and it became impossible to get any major and substantial development going on. And what I like about a TIF is, a TIF is whatever you say it is. Now, we used to think that a TIF was only a downtown process. It's whatever you say it is. Just by this list we have before us today, we now know that there is no set number of years that a TIF has to work. Some of them can be 20, some of them can be 12. 63 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS I'm glad about that. I think they ought to be adaptable to the circumstance. Otherwise, we have such ridged formula, if it doesn't fit on all fours, you can't use it. I think that's a mistake because our communities, while compatible, are not identical. So we must have the capacity to make the vehicle fit the actual circumstance, rather than trying to stretch the circumstance to fit the vehicle. I'm really very glad to see us doing this. We know it works because it worked downtown, so let's take it uptown, let's take it west, let's take it to the great northeast, let's take it to where the people are who pay the bills and who have some pride not only in a vibrant Center City but also in the neighborhoods where they live.
Thank you very much. The Chair recognizes Councilman DiCicco and then Councilwoman Verna.
Thank you, Mr. President. Much of what your comments were some things that I was going to touch on. But I think 64 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS you stated, Mr. Hankowsky, that there are about TIFs that have been done in recent years.
There are 8 that are 5 approved and then we have 6 pending -- 4 today and 6 2 more. So if Council acts favorably, we will be 7 at 14 at year end. 8
So assuming that 9 the 14 are completed, do you know what the value 10 of those TIFs are in terms of the jobs that they 11 will have created? 12
Yeah. The range of 13 those -- because, in some cases, we give you a 14 range -- we create somewhere between 6500 and 10,000. The ones in front of you today are 900 new jobs.
And as to -- in your opinion, in your opinion, would you be able to give me explanation -- not an explanation. Would you be able to tell me how many of these TIFs do you think -- how many of these projects would not have gone forward had there not be a TIF in place?
My believe is that none of them would have proceeded without a TIF. 65 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS
So conceivably, we may not have had the 10,000 jobs that we will have at the end of the TIFs. 5
And some of the 10 comments you made about shopping centers in the 11 neighborhoods, and I think the only comment I 12 would like to make about that is, although the 13 majority of these TIFs did happen in the Center 14 City section of Philadelphia and may not necessarily have happened in the neighborhoods, people -- you can build all the shopping centers in the neighborhoods that you want to build, but if people don't have jobs, they're not going to be able to afford the money to buy the groceries in those shopping centers. And, if not mistaken, of the hotels that have been built to date, most of which have been built by way of TIFs, there are about 4,000 jobs that have been created in the hotel industry. And about 3200 of those jobs are for 66 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS Philadelphia residents. So Philadelphia residents basically are getting something in return and, it's not this so-called big give-away of government money to big business.
Thank you. Mr. Hankowsky, I would just like to say that I think the first TIF that we ever considered was in the Eastwick area, PNC who was threatening to go move out of the City. I think that is definitely a success story. They built a magnificent edifice. It's beautiful. We were able to retain 800 jobs. It is my understanding that they are presently building a second, they're in their second phase of building, and we're looking at 400 additional jobs. So I certainly think that that has been off and running and certainly a success story that we could both boast about. 67 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS
I totally agree, Councilwoman. I mean, PNC did exactly what they told us they would do. They built it, they occupied it. We saved 800 jobs; 200 more were created initially. There was 1,000 people there today and we're looking at another 400 when this expansion that's under construction is open. They started the expansion sooner than they had to or planned to.
And that ground had been vacant for as long as I can remember. And I don't know of anybody that was knocking on your door, begging to construct something there.
That's accurate. (Councilwoman Verna takes over the Chair.)
Thank you, Madame Chair. Just to follow up a question that Frank DiCicco was talking about. You say 10,000 jobs. Is that 10,000 new jobs or are we talking about jobs that may be moving from one area of the city to another? 68 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS
I think, Councilman, I would have to actually go back and look at it in detail. Almost all of these are new jobs. The one that Councilwoman Verna just mentioned, PNC, 800 of these jobs were in Philadelphia; we were going to lose them to New Jersey.
Some were, quote, retained. But in almost all instances, they are new.
I'm talking about the ones that we're considering today. Are we talking about --
These are all new. The ones today are all new, don't exist.
Thank you very much. Anyone else? (No further questions at this time.)
Thank you very much for your time and consideration. 69 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS
The Chair recognizes Mr. David Volpe who, I understand, is here, representing the Philadelphia Controller's Office. (Brett Mandel and Kevin Babyak come forward in place of David Volpe.)
Mr. Volpe had to run to a meeting. I will read his testimony and will be available to answer any questions.
My name is Brett Mandel, and I'm an Assistant City Controller.
The City has used tax increment financing to leverage private investment in a number of City projects. To date, a total 8 projects have been approved, and 6 more are pending. Consistent with the intent of the enabling Commonwealth legislation, these projects are projected to grow the local economy. The purpose of this testimony is not to argue for our or against TIFs as a vehicle to grow the local economy; rather, the Controller's Office would like to comment on three aspects of the 70 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS City's current use of the tax increment financing process. Number one, we agree with the comment that Councilman Nutter made. The allocation of tax increment disregards the financial hardship of the Philadelphia School District. This is simply a matter of the one-sided nature of the School District's tax base. Unlike the City, which has a well-diversified tax base, the School District relies heavily on the use-and-occupancy tax and the property tax to fund services. Unfortunately for the School District, the property tax is the first tax increment used to pay off development costs. If additional funding is needed, then the other tax increments are used to fund the project. At times, the use-and-occupancy tax is the second incremental tax revenue source used. Thus, while the School District's primary source of revenue, the property tax, is earmarked to pay off the note, the City is able to garner revenue from the wage, sales and business privilege tax. Secondly, the "but-for" test. We recognize that this is a best guess. We do not 71 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS truly know if development would take place one or two years down the road without the TIF. It is likely that if the government focuses on creating the conditions for the market to work -- by example, by reducing taxes or improving the City's infrastructure -- development would, indeed, take place without the TIF. As an example, the Administration and City Council should be credited with taking appropriate steps to raise the demand for hotel space in the City through the development of such complementary goods as the Avenue of the Arts and Convention Center. However, as the demand is greater, the less there should be a need for TIFs. Third, there may be too much emphasis on the hospitality and tourism sector of the economy. Many of the TIF Districts have been used to fund development of the hospitality and tourism sector. While it is extremely important to make the City of Philadelphia a destination city, it may be a risky proposition to place so much emphasis on the development of this sector. In forthcoming report to be issued by our office, it will be shown that the growth of 72 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS the local hospitality and tourism sector will likely be driven by other sectors of the economy, such as the high-tech trades and financial services. There must be some systematic criteria for determining which assets should be developed. What can we do to avoid these problems? Given the financial situation of the Philadelphia School District, an agreement should be made whereby the School District will share equally with the City from any benefits from the development in a TIF District. Consistent with other jurisdictions throughout the United States, the City may wish to consider exempting all or a portion of the School District portion of the property tax base from the TIF. Or a credit could be offered to the School District City for a portion of City revenues generated from the development of the TIF District. We simply want to make the School District whole for what they are giving up in the tax increment. We also may want to think a little bit more about the but-for test. If the City needs to use TIFs as a gap financing for a deal to go through, it must be made clear that this 73 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS development would not have taken place but for the TIF.
Perhaps there should be more independent analysis, perhaps an organization such as the Controller's Office should independently verify the but-for argument and the numbers being used. Finally, with regard to the overdevelopment of the hospital and tourism sector, there is a need for systemic criteria determining which areas, besides hospitality and tourism, should be developed. Then the TIFs could be allocated based on this criteria. For example, the City could use criterias where the City has a competitive advantage, what the long-term prospects for growth are, and what the impact of the growth on that area has on the local economy. For example, if research performed by the Controller's Office staff showed that the promotion of high-tech trades would provide the City with a greater return on investment from the City's economic development dollar. Ultimately, it may also be the growth of this sector business which relies heavily on travel that will determine the future path of the hospitality and tourism sector. 74 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS The Controller's Office is currently in the process of analyzing all of the current and planned TIF project deals in terms of their impact on the School District and whether or not the but-for test is met with some degree of certainty. We would be happy to share the results of this analysis in upcoming testimony, and we look forward to releasing that in the near future.
Thank you, Mr. President. Just a few comments. With all due respect to the Controller and to Mr. Volpe and the gentlemen at the table, there seems to be this continuing misunderstanding that what we're dealing with before we start this development is an empty lot, a piece of ground with nothing on it. Whether it's in Tinicum or whether it's in Center City, there's nothing there. There's no 22 taxes being generated for the School District, for the City or for anybody. There are no jobs as a result of that empty lot; jobs that pay wage taxes, sales taxes, business privilege taxes, and 75 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS also enable people to work, to earn a living to buy a house to pay real estate taxes that go to the School District and to the City. Without the TIF, which is not giving away anything 'cause we don't have it yet to give it away, the project won't get done. And for the years that I've sat here since TIF process has started, for the years I've sat here and listened to this, there seems to be this ongoing misunderstanding that we're taking something out of our pocket and handing it to somebody else. The problem is the pocket's empty. In order to fill up the pocket, you've got to do the development to provide the jobs to provide the taxes to provide the services to provide the education. I can't -- I get bewildered sometimes when people testify or comment that somehow this is giving City dollars away.
We don't disagree with you there. The City has the choice to use the property tax or other taxes in the TIF.
We could use different 76 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS revenue from different taxes.
Yeah. We've done a combination of different taxes on different TIFs.
The property tax, though, of course hurts the School District. The School District gives up 55 percent --
Sir, you -- we don't TIF existing property taxes. Any property taxes the School District or the City would get -- I tried to cover that, then you sit right down and confuse everybody. Any existing property taxes that any government gets --
-- it continues to get, they continue to get. What we're doing is, we're TIFing something that doesn't exist now.
We're borrowing the money on the potential of that development.
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, it's really unfair to make it seem like we're taking something away from the School District in order to give it to somebody else, 'cause that's just really isn't what's happening 77 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS here. And people can quarrel with all kinds of parts about this, but don't -- please don't make it seem -- and I have that same frustration, I tried to cover that earlier, and then we -- here it is again.
But remember again, I just want to reemphasize this. For every job that's created, there's a young person that's coming into the economy, into the working world, who can earn a living, get benefits, buy a house, get married, raise their kids, and pay real estate taxes. The loss of residents over the last 15, years in this city has been phenomenal. 17 They're all living in South Jersey, they're all 18 living in Delaware County. All I want to do is 19 keep my young people here and give them a chance 20 to work at jobs that they don't necessarily need a Harvard degree to do. And without that, we're never going to survive, no neighborhood's going to survive, and the City's not going to survive at all. And the only other thing I would 78 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS suggest on a more minor point is the issue of concentration on the hospitality industry. Sad to say, the hospitality industry in this country is the only growth industry we have left, the only growth industry we have left, with the exception of one other thing I wanted to mention -- and that's Kvaerner. Kvaerner is not hospitality; Kvaerner is rivets and nuts and bolt and sheet metal and people with hard hats and steel-toed work boots. That's what we TIFed at the Navy Yard, that's what we TIFed down there. So we're not just TIFing the hospitality industry. We want people to come in on cruise ships and come and visit and go to the convention and do all that happy stuff. But we also want to put people in steel-toed work boots and hats t go down to Kvaerner. We TIF them too.
Well, let me tell you something, in major cities, if you look around the major cities today, what we're doing is attracting these recreational, hospitality hotels -- and thank God we have 'em, thank God they're 79 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS willing to invest. People want to denigrate Disney and do all that, fine, come on in. Come on, Mickey Mouse, come in. It may be simple and silly to some people, but people work in those places, they work in there. If you go to Disney World and you'll see the numbers of people that are working and the type of community they have there, we'll never be Disney World, but we can get a little piece of all that stuff. And to denigrate, I think, is unfair.
Gentlemen, thank you very much. Thank you. It's nice of you to come. (Councilman Nutter comments off-mike, inaudible.)
Councilman Nutter, your point is well taken. We have at least two other people who wish to speak on. I have a note here that says Mr. Scheickel and Mr. Lawson would like to speak for two and a half minutes. UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Each? 80 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS
No, together. We will recognize them for one minute and seconds 4 each. Are they here? 5 (Messrs. Scheickel and Lawson come 6 forward.) 7
Yes, President Street. 10 My name is Sarto Scheickel, and I'm an 11 architectural and urban designer in Philadelphia. 12 I have studied the Convention Center area for many 13 years and have made a variety of proposals for 14 open space in that area. And that is one of the 15 concerns I want to speak to you about today. In general, I support the TIF District being sought by Filbert Streets Associates for the parking garage. However, I have some specific concerns about the lack of open space. In particular, I feel that in reading the original tax increment financing law, the Tax Increment District Law of 1990, it states, for example, that it is the purpose of the law to provide additional and alternative means to finance various projects, all to the public and good. 81 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS And further, it talks about various conditions of blight, what are called "blighted conditions," which can justify the use of tax increment financing. And they include six items, and item No. 2 is inadequate planning of the area or excessive land coverage of the buildings thereon. And item No. 3 is a lack of proper air, light, and open space. So right in the law, the tax increment financing law, it speaks very much about open-space issues. And even in the first item, it talks about crowded conditions and so forth. So while there are very good qualities about the proposal from Filbert Streets Associates in terms of job creation and in terms of the creation of parking, which is needed, there are other qualities of the project that -- specifically the lack of open space which, personally, I don't feel conform to the spirit of the tax increment financing law. And if the Councilmembers don't have a copy of the law, I'll pass I around here. If you don't have it in front of you or haven't read it recently. 82 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS (Copy of cited law distributed to members of Council.)
So what I am leading up to is that if the City is going to provide 6.6 million in TIF, which is a form of a grant in a sense to the developer, it seems to me that some accommodation for open space may be in order. And I want to suggest that with some minor modifications of the Filbert Streets Associates proposal, more open space could be created, and I'd like to pass out a diagram.
You have now been three minutes and 15 seconds. Now, you know, we know each other.
For a long time. And you know that I have arranged and insisted that Mr. Hankowsky's people, people in the Administration and folks who volunteer meet with you to discuss all of this. Is that fair to say?
Because you know how 83 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS much I appreciate your service and have said that Mr. Scheickel's point of view should be considered. It has been considered. And apparently, it hasn't carried the day. And you know, we believe that you're entitled to be heard on this. Councilman DiCicco will tell you that because he knows. I mean, you know, you have wonderful ideas. And we really appreciate those ideas.
President Street, what I want to suggest today is -- I'm not trying to bring another proposal before you, I'm not trying to push aside this proposal.
What I'm suggesting is a minor adjustment in it could yield meaningful open space. And, with your permission, I'd like to share a diagram about that with you.
No, I didn't ask you 84 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS where it was. Boy, I'll tell you, I asked you, "How long will it take?" And you said, "I have it right here." How long will it take?
When you look at it, it will take just about 30 seconds to get what I'm driving at.
You pass it out. And can you be done in three minutes? There are people waiting for all these other things. And I guess -- I mean, I know these people know what it is that you have talked about because we've -- this is not the first time we've been this way. (Copies of above-referenced diagram distributed to members of Council.)
On the bottom of the page, if you hold it with the color diagram on the top, on the bottom of the page, in the green area, you will see the 25-foot setback along 12th Street, which is proposed in the Filbert Streets Associates plan. And on the top is the concept that I 85 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS have for creating a 90-foot setback to create a park with fountains, pavilions, and whatnot, which could provide an amenity which would open up views of the neighboring buildings and provide places for people to come outside of the Reading Terminal Market and eat. Now, in the colorful diagram, in the yellow area, you see an above-ground parking garage, which is in the same location as the developer's proposal, only it's pulled back somewhat. And in the pink area would be the location for a future hotel. Now, these basic elements of garage, future hotel and open space are the same elements that the developer is seeking to do in the long term. And I respectfully request that the Council give further consideration to this, as to whether there is some way to include this kind of meaningful open space and still achieve an above-ground parking garage and a hotel project in the future for the developer.
We appreciate you coming. You know, I appreciate your work. Is there anyone else who wishes to testify on the four tax increment financing bills? If not, we will take them under advisement. Council will now consider -- oh, I'm sorry. Who's -- (Others come forward.)
My name is Steven Lechinski and I'm organizing with the Living Wage Coalition campaign here in Philadelphia. This is a coalitional a effort of 65 organizations, including the AFL-CIO, the Catholic Church, ACORN, and other organizations. And our main concern is that the jobs that get created in Philadelphia are living-wage jobs. And that's why we're here today. And, in general, the idea of the TIFs can be good or bad. And we at the Coalition understand the increment financing. We know that this is not taking away any money. And so we're not proposing that. But the sort of point is that the devil 87 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS is in the details and that City Council, who's prepared to approve these TIFs, really needed to take a look at the kind of jobs that are being created. In general, TIFs can create good-paying jobs, and we've seen that in places like Kvaerner. They can establish centers of commerce, which are desperately needed in Councilwoman Clark's and in low-income neighborhoods. And they can be absolutely good investments. They are not by definition good or bad. It's really a question of timing. One point minor point that we wanted to make, and this is in relation to job creation, is that these job creations is dubious. And if Council's interested, I mean, we can provide information on past PIDC-funded -supported job creation programs that did not work. And so we just wanted to make the point that what Mr. Hankowsky was alluding to, 10,000 or however many jobs, I mean these are predictions and estimates that often do not come true. That's the first detail. The second detail is that you really 88 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS are missing something when you just talk about job creation. And you talk about what kind of jobs are these that are being created. It's a parking garage, these are movie theaters, this is retail stores. And these are excellent entry-level jobs, jobs that people, like Councilman Kenney said, people without a Harvard degree -- and I'm included in that -- can take and can work at. But unlike Council Kenney's vision, these are not jobs that lead people to buying houses. These are not jobs that lead to people sending their children to school. These are $6-an-hour jobs, these are $7-an-hour jobs. And it's a myth to think that these jobs are for teenagers or these jobs are for senior citizens who are just supplementing their income. I mean, these are actually -- most people in minimum-wage jobs are head of household, and this is their only form of income. And one out of three jobs in Philadelphia pays less than $8 an hour. This is a major problem in Philadelphia and the reason that supermarket closed at Progress Plaza, because they can't make money, because people don't shop there, because 89 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS the people in that neighborhood don't have the money to shop there. So now you have a situation where you have an opportunity to develop businesses. This is a great opportunity. And to point to Mr. Hankowsky's points, unlike abatements, these are negotiations. You sit across the table from somebody. And they say, We want to come in. We say, Great, what will it take to get you here? And you go back and forth on that. To go back to Councilman Nutter's points, what are the principles? How do you decide whether a TIF is good or not good? And there aren't any externally. I mean, we hope there are some internally at PIDC, but there aren't any externally that the public or knows about. So the Living Wage Coalition suggests this is an excellent principle, is that you -- before you approve a TIF, you get a commitment from those employees to pay $8 an hour.
In summary, which is 90 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS where we're getting to, this is a great opportunity that Council should not blow this opportunity by not asking the question, What are you going to pay as part of this TIF? We want to have a movie theater in north central Philadelphia, we want to have supermarkets in low-income neighborhoods. And we also want people to be able to afford to shop there. We want people to be able to go see those movies. Working $6- or $7-an-hour does not get you there, does not really help the neighborhood. So City Council, on behalf of the community, should go one step further and just ask these companies to agree to pay 8 bucks an hour to get the TIF. And we believe they'll do that. Thanks.
Mitch -- and I can't understand my writing. It looks like D-E-I-G-H-A-N. (Mr. Deighan comes forward.)
Council President Street, a minute ago, you said to Sarto Scheickel, "How long would it take?" 91 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS And I know that often here in City Council chambers, you discuss the phenomenon where people move out of our great city, for whatever reason, I presume there's a whole lot of 'em. I'm sure Councilman Kenney has articulated most, if not all, of them. I know of his great personal concern for this realm. But it's a horrible phenomenon when we see somebody who chooses my neighborhood, Northern Liberties, over a condo in Mt. Laurel, and they move in, and they only last a couple years. And I feel that they move back out at times because the attractiveness of the vision of the soul of the City of Philadelphia isn't strong enough to keep them here, with all of the testing problems that we have living in urban neighbor. And I know me, when it comes to this. What brought me into the City of Philadelphia to make a life 20, 30 years ago was the great visions that created Independence Mall, that created Penn's Landing, that made a livable neighborhood out of Society Hill. The idea of integrating open space in our lives within an urban context is a very attractive idea for people in the city. 92 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS And in Northern Liberties, once again, my neighborhood, those projects, Liberty Lands, are private nature reserves that some of us own and maintain throughout the little streets of the neighborhood. These are the enclaves where people -- the highest quality of development, the highest concentration of development happens.
My point is that the Pennsylvania Convention Center is really the Philadelphia Convention Center. And the City of Philadelphia, from what I've understood in my lifetime, is -- the soul of our city is in part linked to the idea that space, that people's contact with nature --
I'd like to suggest to City Council, What would we have if we had a 7-story parking garage in the middle of 93 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS Independence Mall or in any of the other significant public project that we've all worked to produce? The Pennsylvania Convention Center -- really the Philadelphia Convention Center should really be a statement about what our city stands for. And in this century, the 20th century, we have stood for rebuilding the city around spaces for -- public places for people, exterior public places for people. The Pennsylvania Convention Center, with all of its greatness that currently exists with its development, left out that part of the equation. And the Market Square, for me, the appeal of the Market Square plan, and now the diminished Market Square plan, is that it reinforces, it states to all who come to our great city that we are Philadelphia. We're not some other place, we are Philadelphia, this is what we stand for. And whereas the other TIF Districts, the ones in the neighborhoods that you spoke about today, I think, are great ideas. But I think the one involving the Convention Center garage is 94 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS incorrect for the future of our city, and that's why I came down here today, to say that.
Anyone else to testify on the TIF bills? Just come up, whoever is here, just sit at the table. (Messrs. Dellaratia and Oaks come forward.)
President Street, members of City Council, my name is Bill. Along with me I have Harry Oaks. We represent the Reading Terminal Market Merchants Association. And we are here to speak in favor of Bill No. 16 980549. Bill No. 980549 will cause the erection of a garage across the street from the Reading Terminal Market, affording market customers, many of whom leave the market with heavy packages, convenient parking. The Reading Terminal Market remains very much a farmers market, with 48 purveyors of fresh foods. I come here today to address this bill because the Market has for sometime been in dire need of reliable, low-cost 95 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS parking for market shoppers. Before the Convention Center was built, market shoppers had access to a low-cost parking garage across the street from the Market, on the lot bounded by 12th to 13th Streets, from Arch to Cherry. That lot had a capacity of approximately 700 cars. That parking was totally lost when construction of the Convention Center was commenced, and the parking has never been replaced. Recognizing the predicament that the loss of these hundreds of space posed, the City and the Redevelopment Authority joined with the Reading Terminal Market Merchants Association to protect the market as a viable City resource by requiring the Continuous Market Operation agreement, which was the organizational document for the market that exists today. That for each -- excuse me. That for each space in the vicinity of the market that was lost by virtue of the construction of the Convention Center, the Convention Center Authority would be obliged to develop, or cause to be developed, another space in the general location 96 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS of the market. Unfortunately, the Convention Center Authority did not live up to its end of the bargain. And although all of the 700 spaces on the site of the Convention Center were lost, not a single space was developed, or caused to be developed, by the Convention Center Authority. In the intervening years, there has been little parking development --
Sir, do you think it would be possible for you to summarize?
In summary, we would like to see the TIF money be approved and the garage built so that Reading Market shoppers will have access to low-cost parking.
Is there anyone that has anything to add to that statement? (No response.)
We'd also like to thank our councilman from our district, Councilman 97 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS DiCicco.
My name is John Lawson, John Lawson Architects. I'm a Center City resident. I've been following the development of the Convention Center and the Convention Center district for approximately years, and I was 10 head of the Urban Design Committee for the 11 American Institute of Architects. 12 And as Mitch Deighan mentioned, one of 13 the missing pieces for this major public building is the major public space. The reason I am testifying today is to support the TIF, the idea of TIF, but I have questions about the planning that goes on and can go on after the TIF is proposed, after the TIF is approved for this -- in particular for 980549, for the parking garage from Filbert to Cuthbert, from 12th to 13th. Although the TIF is described in the public notice description as going to Arch Street, it appears, after looking at the diagram, that it's only a narrow strip of land, which gives access to a proposed parking garage from Arch 98 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS Street. So to me, that's already -- that would then divide the buildings to the east of that proposed Arch Street driveway, which is the subject that Sarto Scheickel was just talking about. These are the low-rise 19th-century structures that you see there and kind of build up to the much taller buildings on 13th Street, at 13th and Arch, which are to remain. So what bothers me about the proposal and in the plan description is the vagueness of that corner of 12th and Arch, which is the entrance point to the Convention Center. I would like to see some way that either that could be not left in ambiguity, such as the parking lot at 13th and Market, which is called "a temporary parking lot." The parking lot north of the Criminal Justice Center is called "a temporary parking lot." They're made beautiful. You know they have brick and wrought iron and nice lighting, etc. But there are many, many tourists -- this is the center of activity now, and especially from the Convention Center going north, south and west, up into the or parts of Avenue of the Arts and the 99 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS developments in Center City. So I would ask that the idea of an overall plan for the Convention Center District be continued, either through the Planning Commission or whomever, in order to accommodate these new developments. In other words, what is the impact of this proposed parking garage upon the site, which is the next site to be purchased or to be taken over by the Redevelopment Authority for development. And my final point is that open space can be good development as well as developing for-profit buildings. The jobs do not -- I can't say how many jobs come from open space, but I just want to reiterate the importance of it. And I think the brilliance of Sarto Scheickel's plan is a first step as far as the open space itself to really finally cement the location of the Convention Center at this place in Philadelphia. Thank you.
Please identify 100 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS yourself for the record.
Yes. My name is Bob Pearson. I'm a resident of Philadelphia, and I work downtown. And I'll limit myself to about a minute and a half. The proposed Tax Increment Financing District falls short of in anticipation or lasting value. And this -- I'm talking about the Convention Center Garage TIF District. This proposal would put a parking garage in the space framed by the Reading Terminal Market, the Convention Center, and Marriott Hotel. This magnificent deserves a much better subject than a parking garage. This magnificent frames begs for something of lasting value that visitors to the area and resident taxpayers can use and be proud of. This magnificent frame deserves a public space, a park, a plaza at ground level, a public space a crossroads for humanity, a friendly meeting and resting space that would complement RittenHouse Square to the east of Broad Street, a public space that the taxpayers will use and visitors will admire, a public space that will make citizens proud of the elected officials and 101 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS appointed officials who had the foresight to create it for us and for future generations. The TIF mechanism is supposed to be applied to result in a development all to the public benefit and good. The TIF legislation is designed to remove urban blight due to excessive land coverage and lack of proper air and light and open space. And I ask, does the proposed parking garage cover less land than the parking lot that's there now or does it increase light or open space? Do hundreds of more automobiles improve air in the area? The answer is clearly no. 15 So where is the public good in the proposed TIF project? We expect better than that, and you can do person this, particularly when win-win options are available. Members of City Council, you can satisfy the purpose of TIF by requiring open space at ground level on a meaningful part of the block west of the Reading Terminal Market to improve air, light, and decreased land coverage. You can say to the developer, We will approve the proposed TIF, we will give you a tax gift in the future if 102 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS you will provide open space, a well-designed public square at street level. But you must put parking underground and above ground to the west of the public square if you want our support. This solution is in keeping with the purpose of TIF redevelopment and could not be challenged. This solution is a wonderful, long-lasting, and (unintelligible) gift to taxpayers of Philadelphia. Please, please revise the proposed TIF legislation to create a public space along 12th Street, between Arch and Filbert Street, in exchange for the tax benefit to private investors. Thank you.
Thank you very much. Is there anyone else here to testify on the TIF bills? (No response.)
Seeing none, we will now consider Bill No. 980794. This is an ordinance amending Subcode "PM" of Title 4 of The Philadelphia Code entitled "The Philadelphia Property Maintenance Code," by extending the Emergency Nuisance Abatement Program to cover 103 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 abandoned vacant lots, under certain terms and conditions. There are a number of people here, I know, from the community who wish to support this bill. The Chair first recognizes Blaine Bonham, Pennsylvania Horticultural Society. (Mr. Bonham comes forward.)
Good morning to Council President, to City Council and their staffs. , Executive Vice President of the Pennsylvania Horticultural Society, and I am here today to voice support for the proposed amendment. Through its Philadelphia Green Program, PHS has worked with neighborhood-based organizations across the City to create green, open spaces out of vacant lots in their communities. In many cases, these green spaces can be temporary remedies to eyesores that negatively impact the area, or they can be planned open spaces that will complement the redevelopment of the neighborhood and serve the community in the future. Over the years, communities have 104 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 demonstrated that this focus on open space is an integral part of successful community development plans, and it serves as a powerful tool in the social and psychological health and vitality of the community as well as its physical appearance. The challenge of organizing resources that include human resources, equipment, supplies and dollars to achieve the transformation of derelict vacant land is often made all the more difficult by a bureaucratic municipal system that cannot support these efforts. In fact, unfortunately thwarts them. This frustration can crush the efforts to remake one lot on a block into a community asset or it can obstruct the neighborhood-wide plans of a community development corporation in its long-term uphill attempt to rebuild a shattered neighborhood. For some neighborhoods, the amount of vacant land currently existing, plus the vacant lots that will be created from the large number of derelict structures that will be demolished within the next few years threatens to overwhelm the community development achievements of even the most successful CDCs. The viability of new 105 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 housing developments are in jeopardy if they are surrounded by vacant land that will remain so for several years, until development occurs. Our work with the CDCs currently focuses on trying to manage the land in the interim as a way of rebuilding a neighborhood and creating that quality of life that we all seek. The frustrations that community leaders experience in trying to deal with irresponsible land owners and a City system that lacks the teeth to remedy the problem is unfortunately an all-too-common themselves. For instance, in New Kensington, where we have been working with the CDC over the last three years to establish a model for the community management of its vacant land and open spaces, the historic frustrations of just trying to get empty lots transferred to the City system to adjacent homeowners as a key strategy for addressing some of the 1100 lots were enormous until a special pilot project was tried through the Office of Housing and Community Development to expedite the process. In the meantime, potential next door 106 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 owners were reluctant to invest in improvements in these properties, which really prolonged the damaging effect that they had on the community. So this emergency abatement legislation gives individuals the legal authority to act to clean up blight. Thousands of families have already begun the effort of cleaning up the lots next to them, and they should be recognized and legitimized by this legislation, along with those who will participate in the future. We believe this legislation will probably be most useful for creating side yards and back yards. Plans to create new streetscape designs to improve the overall look of the neighborhood and create a sense of place stymied by unresponsive owners of vacant lots who ignore the community's plea to clean up their act and cooperate with the new plans. The area around 6th and Norris, where Associacion de Puertoriquenos en Marcha is redeveloping the community is a wash in vacant land.
Ambitious housing, commercial, and open space plans face the hurdle of first getting control of vacant property and then managing and improving the land to complement their efforts. 107 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 So we think amendment to this code is an important first step in a comprehensive approach that the City must adopt in the near future to address the vacant land crisis, and we can all be pleased that City Council is taking this seriously. There are there are several concerns that communities have expressed that Council should consider in acting on this legislation: First, not all the impacted neighborhoods of this city are included in the current abatement areas, and these areas should be expanded to include all the census tracts in which significant numbers of buildings have been demolished in the past 30 years, particularly, neighborhoods like New Kensington and Frankford, where the current boundaries are not included. The cost of the actions -- another issue is that the cost of the actions to make the lots safe should be recoverable by the individual or family taking the action. When the City executes an abatement agreement, it should recognize that the individual will be investing funds. And these funds, if properly documented, 108 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 should be recoverable as mechanic's lien or other such claim against the property. The allowable activities in the abatement contract should include fencing. In the past, families have found themselves with L&I citations for failing to get a permit for a fence when they install a fence to secure an abandoned lot. Trees, grass and other minimal improvements should also be allowable activities. Third, the problem of acquisition of vacant land is not being addressed by this legislation, and it is critical, especially for small lots like side yard and back yards. The family investing in the cleanup and security should know that they will eventually get title to the property if they want it. But it seems to be an established City policy that the sheriff's sale will not be used for acquisition in any significant way. And the question is, does this legislation reflect a change in that policy? Another issue is that staffing for the program is critical. There will be significant demand for this type of support. L&I will need funds to respond to requests for abatement 109 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 contracts, the sponsoring agency will need support as well, and the sheriff will probably need staffing support to do this if it happens on a large scale. So in summary, PHS is currently working with the Office of Housing and Community Development, the City Planning Commission, the Select Committee on Vacant Land, the Pennsylvania Environmental Council, and the Local Supports Initiative Corporation on a project funded by the William Penn Foundation to develop recommendations for comprehensive approach for a comprehensive approach to addressing the management of vacant land across the City. The recommendations will include management systems that involve the government, the private for-profit and nonprofit sectors, and community organizations. It will suggest new municipal policies and procedures for dealing with the land, and will also suggest potential funding mechanisms to finance the sizeable effort. We feel that this amendment is a first step towards legislation that could remake the face of the City's communities and help recast the 110 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 future of Philadelphia. Thank you.
Thank you very much. Mr. Bonham, you know how much we appreciate what you do at the Pennsylvania Horticultural Society. You do wonderful work, which we regularly support. You have raised a couple of issues here that I would like to very briefly address. The issue that you have that not all impacted areas of the City are included in the current abatement program areas is an issue that can be readily rectified simply by a District Councilperson sponsoring a bill to include areas. What we did not do was expand the number of areas other than what are currently in the code because there may be one or two District Councilmembers that might have some concern if a Councilmember put in a bill that would have the effect of expanding a program into their areas without their -- without their support. So that any area that you think should be included in this program that is not included in the program, you should just simply identify what that area is, whose district that area is in, 111 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 and that -- and go to that Councilmember, and I'm sure that that Councilmember would be more than willing. This is almost what most of us regard as a kind of an apple pie kind of program. But on the other hand, I, as the sponsoring member of this -- the person sponsoring -- the Councilmember on this bill, I didn't think it was appropriate for me to include areas in Councilwoman Verna's district, for example. She can do that because once the program is adopted, any Councilmember -- and this will be primarily a district Councilmember function -- can include, can put in the bill to include any areas in it. We're sympathetic. That's just a process issue that City Councilmembers will be delighted to work with you on.
If anything, it shows that communities really want to have this extended to their neighborhoods so they can act on it.
And I'm sure we'll all be willing to support that. But as a matter of protocol, we didn't think it was appropriate for us to expand the section of the code to 112 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 include areas that are not currently already included because that decision has been made. Now, you also say the cost of the actions to make a lot safe should be recoverable by the individual or the family taking the action. It is my understanding that that is covered by this bill because it's a part of the old 1202-A Program that we are amending.
I think there was just a question about how far that goes with how much people can invest their own resources, get the property --
But in principle, the legislation requires -- permits them to recover. I think that becomes an L&I decision along with the group as the group that enters into its development contract. So I don't think that that is a significant problem for us. The sheriff sale policy is something that we'll be dealing with long beyond the time when any of us are here. I mean, this has been a -- at least I have been talking about this for at least 19 years, and I don't know that we can resolve that. 113 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 Staffing for the program is critical. We agree with you. This is a budget, a City operating budget item that well get to during the course of our consideration of the budget. There may very well need to be additional L&I people to work with implementing the program, and we can take care of that tat that time. So that as a bottom line, we certainly appreciate your support of this program.
I agree with you, having been involved in this whole vacant property issue for many, many, many years, as you know, probably -- I mean, there's -- so much of the land in my district falls within this program that we think that we have to do something, and this is one of the things that we can do, but we appreciate your being here today and your support of the program. Does anyone have any questions of Mr. Bonham? I see some lights flashing. We'll start with Councilwoman Verna.
Thank you. Are 114 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 you going to be in touch with each of the District Councilmembers so that we could review this with you --
I just saw a map. I don't have it in front of me. It's largely the center spine -- you probably know, Council President, it's largely the center spine of North Philadelphia. It's got District 3, a lot of West Philadelphia, up into District 8, and parts of 1. I don't think it has too of -- there we go, maybe you could. . . It doesn't have very much of your district, Councilwoman Verna.
There are pieces of North Philadelphia, east of Broad, where there's an enormous amount of vacant land now. And maybe, 115 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 when this was originally set up, it wasn't such the case, but it certainly is now. And I know in some of the communities that I've talked to that we've worked with said, Gee, it doesn't apply to us and we really need the teeth in the ordinance 7 to be able to act on it.
Well, I would appreciate your calling my office for an appointment because I would like to sit and talk to you about this.
My comment really goes to you, Mr. Street, as the primary sponsor. In the North Philadelphia area, one of the problems that one encounters in dealing with vacant lots is the ticketing process that happens if a fence is put up. I notice that this testimony that Blaine Bonham has given does address that issue of permits for fencing lots. What is your intent with respect to that towards making it easier for people to not 116 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 have to deal with the ticketing that goes with the lack of the permit?
Councilwoman, what a group would do is sit down with the Department of Licenses and Inspections and work out a development plan for the lot and get the lot and be able to spend money, develop that lot. And if anything ever happened at any time, under the law, the real estate laws of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, and there are all kinds of problems that can happen. For example, lots can get tied up into estates, and they're there, and it can drag on and on and on. And we're in a horrible position where, you know, many times, the neighborhood can't go on the lot, they can't develop the lot, they can't do anything. And trash is on the lot and people do all kinds of crazy things. What this bill will allow them to do is enter into an agreement essentially with the Department of L&I, go on the lot, fence it, improve it, do something that the neighbors think is in their best interests --
Then, when it -- 117 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794
Let me finish, Councilwoman. And in the event that anything ever happened and they lost control of the lot because it was in an estate or something, they would be able to get reimbursed for all of the costs that they spent in developing that lot. So it's not a temporal kind of process that might currently exist. They have an opportunity to sit down and work out with the City a license agreement to go on and improve the lot and have it.
But absence the license agreement, I guess we're now talking about the sequence. Suppose a person lives near a vacant lot, that that is contiguous to their property. And in order to make it safe to live in the house, that homeowner will then fence the lot. That person should have gotten the L&I agreement prior to the fencing is what you're saying.
What I'm saying is that right now, L&I has no legal right to give 118 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 them the authority to go on the lot and fence the lot.
Until this. This gives L&I the right to sit down with the homeowner, property owner. And, say, in some cases, there are really big lots that can affect the whole neighborhood.
Because sometimes there have been a series of demolition activities that have taken place for a variety of different reasons, and the neighborhood says we have to do something and are willing to generate resources and work with the Pennsylvania Horticulture Society to develop these lots, but they need to have a legal right to do it.
To be there and to be able to do this. And what this does is, it take the speculation out, it takes -- they don't have to be trespassers.
And it addresses the permit to put a fence up, which is a very 119 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 important impediment to neighbors in self-help efforts.
Yeah. I think what this suggests is that what really needs to have some attention put to it, and I'm sure it's probably something you're thinking about, is working with L&I, which has given these citations out often because, legally, they can. But because there is an increasing number of groups that are trying to do something with vacant lots, there's got to be a way of batching up requests so that it can happen in a timely manner, and people don't get frustrated. So if the permits can happen and things can proceed legally, I think that's really the crux of the problem.
I really do agree that that's the crux of the problem. And I thank you for your explanation.
Thank you very much. The Chair recognizes Councilman Rizzo for a follow-up.
Mr. President, did I understand that in your statement that you 120 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 suggested that a community group get the approval from L&I to conduct a certain activity, clean up, fence up and then go in and ask for reimbursement?
You must have misunderstood. Hypothetically, there is a block or a neighborhood that has either a vacant land -- a parcel of vacant land or a group of parcels of vacant land. This vacant land tends to attract certain nuisance activity. It could be children, kids hanging out on it, it could be people dumping trash on it or towing cars up on it and setting up little, you know, operations where they're pulling motorists out of their cars. It could be just, you know, just people hanging out. Now, what happens is, you're talk about something interfering with people's capacity to 121 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 enjoy their property, they want to do something. This group here might want to do something with that lot, because the neighborhood, it becomes a nuisance, that lot. Right now, anything they do on the lot, if they do it, it's fundamentally at their own risk. They do not have a right on the lot. L&I doesn't have a right legally, it says, to tell 'em to go on somebody else's property, because that's what it is. What this -- what this nuisance abatement law actually does, and I know a little bit about this because I sponsored the original bill almost maybe 16, years ago. What this 16 does is, it allows the City, under its authority 17 to abate a public nuisance, it allows the City to enter into an agreement with the neighborhoods to go onto the last time, improve the lot, and ultimately get ownership of the lot. Because at the same time they're entitled to go on, what we'd like to do is take the lot through the sheriff's sale process. But people don't want to invest in these lots and go out and raise money and put 122 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 facilities on them if they don't have a legal right to be there. And if something happened and they were put off, then they couldn't get reimbursed. So what they do is, they go to L&I, they say, We want to improve the lot. L&I enters into an agreement with them, authorizing them to go on and spend the money to improve the lot. And then the subsequent process will take place where we will try to take it through a sheriff's sale. Sometimes it can be a private negotiation, right, where they actually get ownership of the lot. In the meantime, if you have a stubborn property owner that says, We want the lots, we don't care, you let 'em go on there. Well, we say, Fine, then pay 'em for the work that they did. Because you were conducting a public nuisance, you were allowing that lot to sit there, doing nothing and allowing trash to pile up and all this other stuff that's a public nuisance. You now have to pay them for the fence that they put up, you pay them for the work that they've done and the maintenance that they've done. So that there will be less of an 123 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 incentive for people to speculate on property 'cause some of these folks are speculators, some of them, not all, some. Some of them are these properties that just caught up in the limbo of estates and all, but they sit there. And we can't TIF 'em 'cause it just doesn't work. (Laughter.)
So what we have to do, if we could TIF 'em, we might have 500 TIFs in here. We can't TIF 'em, but we can do is create a mechanism whereby the City, through the Department of Licenses and Inspections can authorize an entry on the property, authorize money to be spent. Then a -- not a real fancy sophisticated, but a general kind of development plan will be entered into, and they'll all agree to do certain things. And they take literally ownership of the lot. But we want to protect them 'cause we don't want them to spend money and then run the risk of not being reimbursed when some property owner comes back and exercise some right that he or she might have, over which we have no control 'cause that's state law. And they then would be able to get reimbursed. 124 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 But this is a way to abate a public nuisance of vacancy in areas of the City where a lot of it may exist. Now, the reason why we will need some amendments is because not all of those areas were originally covered by the bill that I sponsored many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many years ago. So that if there is an area in Councilwoman Miller's district that's not covered by that, and it's easy to find out, she can just sponsor a bill. It takes us two weeks. That area then becomes covered, and this activity will be able to be implemented in that area in her district, which might not now be covered.
The Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter, then Councilwoman Miller, and then Councilwoman Blackwell.
Thank you, Mr. President. Actually, I don't really so much have 125 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 any questions for Mr. Bonham. I would be interested, though, in a little bit of discussion with any of our City agencies that have responsibilities for enforcement. Are there any City agencies folks here?
Is there a repetitive from L&I here, the Department of Licenses and Inspections? (No response.)
Or Housing or anyone that's in the -- okay. (Deborah McColloch approaches the witness table.)
Please come and identify yourself for the record. This record will show that she volunteered for this. (Laughter.)
Good morning. My name is Deborah McColloch. I'm the Deputy Director at 126 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 the Office of Housing and Community Development.
Thank you, Mr. President. Ms. McColloch, what's just by way of background, that's OHCD's involvement in this program or in the implementation of this?
You have to pull the microphone closer to you. You don't have to lean over. You make us feel so nervous, you're leaning over, almost look uncomfortable. You can get comfortable.
No, I'm sitting with my pal Blaine so I'm not. . . The 1202-A Program currently is carried out by staff at the Redevelopment Authority, as part of the real estate staff at the Redevelopment Authority. So OHCD, through our contract with the Redevelopment Authority, we support that staff.
Okay. And through 127 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 the -- 'cause I thought when we recodified various parts of the code, this now comes under something called the "Property Maintenance Section." Do you have any information with regard to the number of properties that -- with structures on them that have gone through the 1202-A Program in recent years? Or I guess what I'm trying to understand is, what's the difference between this process if it's in wards that are covered by this particular bill versus what happens in the rest of the city where it's not covered?
For the structures. Or what would happen with the inclusion of vacant lots? MS. MCCOLLOCH I think the question of what will happen with the inclusion of the vacant lots anyone's guess in the sense of how much demand is there going to be for this that --
No, I'm talking more about the process, not so much demand. I'm talking about the step-by-step process. What 128 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 would a person do in an area that is covered versus an area that is not covered? Or is the main issue here your right and ability to go onto the lot under agreement with the Department of Licenses and Inspections and at least start work in the prospect of being reimbursed? I mean, is that the main thing here? In terms me of getting the ownership, is there any difference between being involved in this program versus just trying to go through the normal sheriff's sale process.
Well, the difference here would be that if you've entered into an abatement agreement, which is what you would do, that allows you onto the property, and then you'd go ahead and do it, then that property gets entered into the sheriff's sale process. It would be certified for sheriff's sale certified.
It automatically gets entered in. The way it happens now, if you want to have a property certified for sheriff's sale, you have to make that request and so on and so forth. 129 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794
And my experience with the sheriff's sale process, there's always the $800 issue. Someone supposedly has to put up $800 to get a property at a sheriff's sale. Under this program, you're saying that it automatically goes to sheriff's sale; is no one then required to put up the $800?
Right, the individual does -- the abator does not have to put up the $800, which is essentially the difference between being covered and not being covered.
That's just an administrative cost that, I guess, the City budget takes on. I mean, L&I doesn't collect it, so I can't answer that.
Right. I mean, no one -- that's what I'm saying, no cash actually -- in that case, actually, no cash is exchanged.
Right. We're going to do it because we're going after it and we're going to theoretically try to outbid anybody else that's out there, okay. One of the provisions on of the bill, item number 3, talks about the Department issuing notice to the owner. And in this particular case, under this provision, we're talking about vacant lots. And in many instances, at least on our City records, that may be the only address that we have for the owner. It is the lot now, there's no longer a building there. How do we provide notice to that person?
What we do with community groups, because we want them to have permission to use the lot, is to send a certified letter to the address listed in the real estate directory. And if it comes back because it's undeliverable, then 131 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 often, we just encourage groups to go ahead and use it for a while. That may not be the legal way to do it, but other than that, nothing gets done.
All right. But you've tried to provide notice and -- I'm sorry?
It might be necessary to advertise in a newspaper of general circulation when you have the lot as the only known address.
And if we're talking about the abator of the nuisance, one, they take a clear and marketable title, you may want to put that advertising requirement in so that you meet the notice requirement.
Yeah, but I point out that there are two different notice requirements. This note, the notice requirement that we have here isn't a notice that subjects the property owner to termination of his or her property rights. Those notice requirements are done through the whole sheriff's sale process, which is outlined in state law.
Therefore, it 132 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 would not be necessary here? Is that the point you're making?
What the Department has and the Law Department have determined is, in order to be able to hold anybody responsible for the costs that get incurred in abating the nuisance and/or to notify the property owner that a nuisance exists, some notice has to be given of that. And I can tell you, I know from experience, that notices are sent out, there are real estate tax estate bills that have addresses on them, they send out those kinds of notice there. There are postings, there are all kinds of things that are done. But as a practical matter, the bottom line is that with a licensing agreement with the licensing and agreement, a community can be authorized to go onto the lot.
And improve the lot. Because we take the provision in this city 133 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 that we are entitled to recover the costs of abating a public nuisance. That's why we go in and we post notices on people's property, right? L&I notices, demolition notices that's we're going to tear the property down because it's unsafe, etc. And we tear the property down and lien the property and the property owner, if we can get 'em, for the cost of the demolition.
But the point that you make is there's an important distinction between the notice necessary to use and to abate a nuisance versus the notice necessary to transfer ownership.
And for those people who are not familiar with it, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many years ago, this Councilmember took the position that the City of Philadelphia ought to be authorized to give people license agreements to go into, occupy, and improve existing but vacant structures. And then if an owner should show up out of the blue, which is really what happens to that family and they will 134 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 tend to come up, they will tend to find themselves when they see the improvements being made or during the sheriff's sale process, that that family that went into that vacant property, improved it, spent money, painted it, put in windows, put in plumbing, put in all kinds of major systems, should be able to be reimbursed before the property owner can get anything. Now, what happens is, in low-income neighborhoods, a owner of a property that's, you know, kind of not really interested in that property maybe except for some speculation purposes, right, that house is not going to fetch enough at sheriff's sale to pay back the family who moved in and abated the public nuisance to give that owner anything. So most of the time, they'll just disappear.
And then that family can have that property that they have improved. Fewer and fewer vacant properties today are eligible for that kind of improvement, although some still are. But it is that basic principle that 135 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 we're trying to apply to vacant properties -- neighborhood vacant lots so that neighborhoods don't have to be straddled with these vacant lots, with no legal capacity to go in and occupy those lots and improve them without risking both legal liability, because they're on somebody's property, and financial loss. So that's really kind of what this is all about.
One last question, Mr. President. The map that was handed out, is this being put forward as an attachment to the bill, or is this just something that kind of exists?
I can answer that. What this is is a map that's calculated to show the existing areas of the City that are covered by the underlying law, which this bill amends.
My only question about that is that my reading of the code indicates that the 4th Ward is not in the program, 136 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 although it is listed in the map, although it is not colored in as the areas are. That may just be a typographical area. But I did want to ask you, Mr. President, when you talked about what happened many years ago, if you have any recollection of, other than the initial area, I guess, being in your Councilmatic district, why something like this, I guess, wasn't done more on a citywide basis? I mean --
Obviously, I wasn't here at the time, so I don't know what --
I can answer that question. Councilman, you were probably like maybe in high school. (Laughter.)
Folks in the back here are saying that I was in day care at the 137 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 time. (Laughter.)
Councilwoman, this actually was probably 15, years ago, so this 8 has been a while, it's been around a while. 9 The idea that the City of Philadelphia 10 would license somebody to go into the real estate 11 of another person and improve that property was 12 really a novel concept at the time. 13
And maybe even more 16 than just novel. And there were enough skeptics about the impact of all of it so that those of us who had districts, and probably this was Councilwoman Blackwell at the time, those of us who had districts that were riddled with these vacant properties were the ones, you know, who really kind of pushed this thing. And we didn't think it was necessary to ask Councilmembers who may not have had the problem as much at the time to support something 138 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 that could be applicable to their districts when they didn't view themselves as having had the problem. So we tried to tailor the areas to meet the vacant property needs at the time. Now, there are probably more now. And when you start talking about vacant lots, the discussion is a little different. But nevertheless, when we decided to do this, in conjunction with the Department of Housing, with the Housing Department and Mr. Bonham and them, we know how sensitive an issue this can be, and we decided that we would allow members of City Council who represent districts to make recommendations to the full Council on areas to be included. What we are primarily concerned about is that we now have a new tool in our arsenal that allows fundamentally more self-help with vacant lots than has ever been permitted under City ordinance at any time. And that's really why we -- because I would not, for example, want District Councilpeople to say, Well, I don't understand all of this, and I don't know, and this has never been applicable to this area, you know 139 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 what I mean? We never know. This is a legislative presents.
Thank you, Mr. President. I'd like to know if in the old legislation, it addresses the issue of making some type of priority list over who can acquire the lot. For instance, is it restricted to neighbors only or community groups in the area that would prevent a speculator from outside the area coming in and acquiring that lot?
As a practical matter, the people who implement this program have always sought to give a priority to people who live in proximity to the lots and to the houses. And it gets to be -- with vacant properties as opposed to vacant lots, there are a little different considerations. But I can tell you that -- and there 140 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 may very well have to be some separate regulations developed with the implementation of this program. I looked at the bill to see if it called for that. If there are, then there will be. The regulations typically don't go into the bill. But I can tell you that if there's a vacant lot that's sandwiched between two occupied properties, and one of the occupants of those properties wants to develop the lot, and somebody around the corner around the corner wants to develop the lot, the people with the closer proximity will be the ones who will be given primary consideration. It's almost inconceivable to me that a speculator from outside of the community will be able to come in, under this program, and get a right to develop a lot that's inconsistent with the needs. One other thing -- and I've -- and I have so many years of experience. One other thing that's good about this is that it puts the community in a position where it has to sign a contract, it has to sign an agreement. And that's different from just going on the lot. 141 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 Because when you sign a contract, when you make an agreement, when you sit down with the representatives of the City, whether or not it's L&I or somebody in the Redevelopment Authority, when you make a great agreement to do certain things on behalf of either yourself as a family or your block or your community, there's a much greater probability that that commitment will be kept than if it's just kind of, you know, a person or maybe an informal group of people who are going on a lot and doing something that really isn't authorized by the City in this way.
We just go around and clean up lots and we've never gotten permission, I don't think, from anybody. Sometimes we've worked along with L&I, and they'll bring out equipment or the Streets Department. But I think this will be a good program because there's just so much blight.
I think I can mention to Councilwoman Miller that even though she admits to having engaged in potentially 142 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 illegal activity, I believe the general rule is that members are immune from arrest in the chambers of City Council.
As long as you stay in the room, you are safe. On the regulation issue, Mr. President, and the Councilwoman raises a question. I think if there are none on the who-gets-the-lot issue, there may be a need. I've had a couple experiences where the next-door neighbor has maintained the area, legally or illegally, they just took it upon themselves, they didn't want the nasty lot next to their house. And then they found themselves in conflict with the block organization because they wanted to do one thing with the lot, and the person that's been maintaining it for a couple years on their own, with no help from anybody, can almost all of a sudden have something pulled out from under them because now the block group has a brilliant idea for what they want to do at a time when they 143 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 weren't doing anything with the lot before this new opportunity came along. So, I mean, some of the who-gets-it-first situations do occur.
This bill will force a consideration of those sometimes conflicting interests and priorities up front as opposed to downstream, where they can actually be -- and I will tell you, I mean I can tell you of a seasoned group of community people here. These are not easy decisions. I mean, I remember when I was a novice at all of this, and people came to me and said, We want a basketball court. And I said, It sounds like a good idea to me, and then I almost got killed. (Laughter.)
'Cause the community said, Don't want you understand, we need to sleep?
You cannot put a basketball court there. I see the seniors saying yes, that's right. So that it does require a certain 144 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 amount of group cooperation in order to do this. But, I'm telling you, in the end you get much, much, much longer-term results 'cause you really do have a better community process. I've seen situations where one person has kept lots immaculate for ten years, a long time, and gets sick, then that's the end of it. Everything gets washed away 'cause a one person got sick 'cause it was only a commitment, it was a one-person commitment as opposed to a group commitment. Councilwoman Blackwell?
Thank you, Mr. President. I know that I've been in and out, but I have several questions. One is on municipal liens. Do all of these have to have municipal liens in order to be conveyed? I mean, according to this, it does.
No, I don't think it does. No, it does not have to have municipal liens.
It's a nuisance 145 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 abatement process. As a practical matter, virtually all of them have some kind of municipal lien, but I don't think it has to have a municipal lien.
All right. For example, I have a lot that was vacated, and an adjoining day care put playground equipment there, fixed it up, and when I offered to try to bring them before VPRC, they said no, they don't want to take the chance on an owner coming from out of town and surfacing and trying to -- they'll take their chances. So they have a whole beautiful place. They fenced it put, bark down and all kinds of playground equipment.
Yes. Under the law, if you occupy another's property openly and in a hostile way for 21 years, for 21 years, you gain a property interest in the program, and some people just would rather not do that. But they do that at their own risk, 146 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 they really do, 'cause the property owner might come back and assert some right. But I mean, I don't know that there's anything you can do about that.
Well, what does this do compared to that kind of situation?
This is not designed to address that kind of situation. This is designed to address a situation where a family or a block has a vacant property in it, they want to improve it, they want to go on and put, you know, maybe a sitting park there or some other kind of facility, and they don't want to take the chance on just kind of just going onto somebody else's property. They want to be able to own it, put a fence up, have a key to it, control it, and do what they need. Now, they could do that because they can enter into an agreement with the City to go on and abate what is referred to as "a public nuisance," and then that property will automatically go into sheriff's sale, and they can own the property.
Well, can't 147 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 that person do that once this is a law?
The City will have -- once this is passed, the City will have a right to enter into nuisance abatements or license agreements with individuals and/or groups to abate the public nuisance of vacancy in vacant lots in the neighborhood covered by the area, right, without legal liability 'cause they're authorized to do it. And in the event that they lose the lot, they can get reimbursed for the costs that they have spent in fixing up the lot.
So if an individual has already done it, as in this case, this bill -- then they should go to a --
Yes, they should go and try to get protection under this bill.
All right. We've been talking with Mr. Marx about a lot of this. Let me ask another question. And I know he's been real concerned about this as you are of course as well. Now, cannot we do the same for -- let me back up. 148 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 How do they do that? How does a group acquire it? Does this ultimately go through VPRC or how do you do it?
They will enter into an agreement with the City, probably through the Department of Licenses and Inspections, I mean, and that's a detail here. But they'll get an agreement and then the property will go through a sheriff's sale. In the meantime, they're on the property, they're doing what they need to do, they're not waiting for the two, three, four, five years, however long it takes for the property to get through the sheriff's sale. They end up getting a right of entry and a right to improve the property and do what they need to do the moment they enter into that agreement.
So at this point, we should take names and then go call L&I.
Well, what we should do is, we should end up finishing this public hearing, doing this bill. I'll end up checking with the Law Department to determine the extent to which there may need to be some supplemental 149 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 regulations that get approved, that get implemented to actually -- to get drafted and get implemented to do all of this. And at the appropriate time -- I don't -- I think it's impossible to say precisely how long it takes. But when it's all said and done, then all of the other groups around the City, whether or not it's a block group or a community group or an individual, they will then be able to make application for these agreements to go on and abate the vacancy by doing stuff on the lots.
Another question. Since this is the Emergency Nuisance Abatement Program that we're amending, can't we do properties under it?
Properties are already covered. Vacant properties are already covered.
I'm saying, this says that they can get it in a year. This calls for a turnaround in a year. So cannot we do the same thing with vacant properties in a year then?
Vacant properties 150 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 are already covered by this bill. We are amending the bill that allows vacant properties to be given to people through a license agreement so that it can now be done with vacant lots.
So in other words, where there are vacant and dilapidated properties, people can apply for them.
Not under this bill, under the City ordinance that this bill amends and get a right to go into those properties.
So they can, so in other words, we have a turnaround not of three where they have to be delinquent in taxes to go through VPRC or sheriff's sale, then we can do the same with this for only one year for vacant properties. They're covered under this Nuisance Abatement Program.
I don't know that it has to take a year, but they can go in. Now, one of the reasons why this program isn't used as much as it used to be used is 'cause there are fewer and fewer properties 151 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 that are in such condition that people can kind of go into them and just start fixing them up without serious rehabs. So that over the last 15, years, we 6 have seen the number of people and the number of 7 properties that might be suitable for this kind of 8 program dwindle to the point where it's not used 9 as much as it used to be used. 10
But does the 11 property owner have to be delinquent? 12
She's saying 15 that under the other program, you had to be 16 delinquent in taxes for three years or more. 17
The properties that 18 we're talking about here, vacant properties we're 19 talking about here are always delinquent, they're 20 always delinquent, you know. And if they're not delinquent, then you know what, it's a pure, outright speculator that has gotten the properties, that has -- then what happens is, the Department has a right to say, You have to do something with the property, you got to clean it 152 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 and seal it, you have to fix it up, you have to do whatever you want to do. Now, we can't make 'em put it in a habitable condition, right? And, in the case of vacant lots, we can't try to make them do something by taxing the vacant lots. That's Council Anderson's old vacant property tax. Councilwoman Verna, you know, you were here, we voted on that got, and it got all tied up in the courts. This bill isn't designed to solve all the problems 'cause if a person comes in and pays his taxes, cleans and sells the property, right, or if a private owner pays the taxes, fences the lot, right, and keeps the weeds cut, there's probably nothing we can do about it. But that's not what happens in most cases. In most cases, what happens is, they do not pay the taxes, they do not fence the lots, they do not cut the weeds, they do not remove the trash, they don't do any of that. They leave it there as a blight on the community. And what this bill is designed to do is put people in a position to do something in those 153 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 cases.
Mr. President, according to this, this says -- it says here, "If a lot is unsafe, if it presents a hazard to the community because of existing violations. . . " Now the owner can technically seal it, but you might have a building without a roof, as you know, and a building without -- --
Councilwoman, this is applicable to vacant lots, so there are no 12 buildings on this lot. This is a vacant lot sitting there. Maybe L&I already tore down the building a year ago or five years or fifteen years ago, and nothing has happened and it's just sitting there, collecting trash, serving as a hangout, people putting old cars on them, and we come through and get 'em towed off.
I accept that, but I'm saying, can't we use it to also help us with properties?
Where you don't have to have -- maybe, as Councilwoman Verna 154 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 says, they're not behind in taxes, some owners are paying up the taxes on a raggedy property, and we can get it in a year without it having to be behind on taxes due to the conditions that are listed.
No, Councilwoman, you cannot -- under no circumstance can we take people's property, right, under this ordinance in less than the time that it would take to either condemn it or take it under the sheriff's sale. All this bill does for vacant properties now or for vacant lots now or for occupied properties under the law that this bill 15 amends is authorizing people to go in and spend money and do some things. And this protect them against the property owner booting them out and not reimbursing them for their costs.
I hear what you're saying, and we're very, very glad to have this bill for lots. But it seems to me that if it applies to lots, it ought to apply to properties. I mean, I don't know, maybe the --
It already -- the underlying bill already applies to houses, it's 155 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 been applying to houses. That's where it -- many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many years ago, when I originally did this bill, it was for vacant properties. It's still there, it's still applicable to vacant properties. All we're doing today is amending it to make ti applicable to vacant lots.
Why are we being told then that a property has to go up for sheriff's sale before somebody can acquire it?
Because you can't terminate a property interest without going through sheriff's sale, condemning it or buying it. There's only three ways you can terminate a property interests.
All this bill does is allow people to go in and occupy and spend money while you do those other things. This bill 21 doesn't terminate the property interests, it cannot terminate the property interests.
So if -- I'm thoroughly confused, I'm thoroughly confused.
Slow down. Let me 156 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 just --
Let's just talk about -- we all understand about the lots. I think we ought to talk about the vacant buildings, the vacant homes because it's news to me that I could just simply go into a house that is not occupied.
And do the necessary repairs until such time as the property owner catches up with me and says --
No. If there is a vacant property in one of these areas that are covered by the bill, that the Department of Licenses and Inspections determines to be a public nuisance, L&I has to first determine it to be a public nuisance. You just can't go into any vacant piece of real estate. It has to be a piece of real estate that L&I has deemed to be a public nuisance. And there are criteria that the Department uses to determine if it's a public 157 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 nuisance. Once that determination is made, then under the Nuisance Abatement Program, the Department is authorized to say to a family, You can go into this property under a license agreement, and you can improve it. Meantime, we'll try to get you the property through the sheriff's sale process. And if you don't get the property, either the property owner or whoever gets it out of that sheriff's sale, has to reimburse you for your costs.
Is that a citywide policy or is that policy just for the people who are --
It's only for the properties that are deemed to be a public nuisance that are in these areas that are covered by the original bill that I sponsored many years ago.
Well, that's why I probably don't understand it because my district is not included.
Well, Councilwoman, when we did this many, many years ago, not all Councilmembers wanted to be included. So now we 158 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 want to take the same principle that we had used then and apply it to vacant lots. But we didn't want to say citywide because that would be making it applicable to your district a program that was never in your district. And if you want it to be in your district, it's very simple. I mean, it can be done in two weeks. Just get a bill, right, to amend the boundaries to include whatever areas in your district you want to include. And if we pass this bill, then the program will be applicable in those areas in your district to both vacant properties and vacant lots.
But I don't want people to think that this is a way the terminate property interests 'cause it isn't; it's only a way to abate vacancy. 'Cause you still have to go through a sheriff's sale.
On this one, you go through sheriff's sale, and in the other 159 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 condition, you --
But it authorizes these folks the go right on and do what they have to do, and the Pennsylvania Horticultural Society and anyone else working with them can approve the lot, so we don't have to have it sitting around.
Do they then own them? If it goes to sheriff's sale, then they have a right to own them.
Yeah. The idea is that they will ultimately end up opening them, and we think will for the most part.
So, which is back to Ann Verna's concern, then it should be the same for properties. If you can own --
All right. So then that means that we do have what we're talking about, the right not to have to wait a year if --
If it's three years behind in taxes and -- 160 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794
You're going to have to make sure that your district is also on that map.
Oh, I love it all, I really do. But I would venture to say, especially with regard to another bill that we will hear, if I might take one of the President's presidential minutes, a Councilmatic minute, that it's very interesting that we mention what's in and out of districts, especially given all the controversy surrounding the 3rd District being off of the quality-of-life bill. Now, as God so willed it, we have this discussion and we find that other legislation districts can be in or out, so it doesn't mean that the whole City falls apart if we have our districts in and out of bills. It happens sometimes.
It's been like that since time immemorial. 161 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794
Yes. I'd just like to follow up on a comment that you made, which was that you thought that now, because of the condition of a lot of the house, that this ordinance is not being used as much as it might have been in past. But I really think that if it extends to City lots or vacant lots, that there's going to be a great increase in business.
And I think you got to carefully figure staffing for that, or we'll run into the same bottle neck, and people will be frustrated again.
Thank you very much. Is there anyone that has any other questions for these witnesses? (No response.)
President Street, I 162 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 just wanted to enter into testimony OHCD's support of the bill.
Okay, thank you very much, that would be great. Can we make sure we get OHCD's testimony?
Now, I understand there are a number of people here who are in support of the bill. Can I have all of the people in the room stand who are here specifically to support this bill? (Those in support of vacant property bill stand.)
We're talking about the vacant property bill. I think the record will reflect that I see 40 people. Do all of you wish to testify? Is there anybody who really feels they need to testify? It is pretty clear to me that there are a number of people here. We have a very, very busy schedule. Those people who want to testify, who really think it's necessary, I don't think 163 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 that there's any significant opposition to the bill. But if you feel like you just want to testify, then you should come and sit at the witness table. If you don't think it's necessary on the basis of the discussion, we appreciate that. But the people who want to testify, please come up. (More witnesses come forward.)
Good afternoon. Please identify yourself for the record.
Good afternoon. I'm Phyllis Martino, Director of Economic Development, IMPACT, which services in the West Kensington area of the City. We would like to very briefly testify on behalf of Bill No. 980794, because we do believe it will be an instrument in the City's arsenal for blight in the neighborhood. We testify only at this time to reiterate the points that were made by Mr. Bonham in his testimony, saying that this is a wonderful first step. It is not an sufficient answer to dealing with the vacant land problem in the City where we have hundreds and thousands of lots, and we would like to see a more comprehensive 164 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 approach. This would be the first step in a more comprehensive approach.
My name is Lucy Ramos. I am a community leader also in the Empowerment Zone. I am afraid we going to have some trouble in North Philly because everybody talk and talk and they forgot other people who live in North Philly. Nobody go around there. The people who represent my district 180, they go there and sit over there in the seat and they don't go to the neighborhood to check how we live. They come down to get the space for the garden. They close that space and put cars over there and they hide their junk and the drugs in those cars. They come here to get a lot for garage, they make the garage, they leave the space. And besides that, the garage, later we have the drugs in the block, and I don't like that. I live in my neighborhood for 20 years. You know me since I came here. 165 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794
And I fight all my life for everybody. Nobody care. When I talk, people have to listen to me because I am right. Those people who go out of business in North Philly -- I know everybody in North Philly because I am there every day. I go there, they say they close the building. Why they close the building? They're afraid they get killed. Those people who got killed is those ones who are around selling drugs in every corner. And those garage, they keep the drug in those cars. The police go by car. I say, Don't go by car. Send somebody walking around and you see because I walk around and I see. The police is in the corner over there, and they're in the other corner, in the lot, selling drugs, and they have the drugs and the dope. I see how they work. I am in the city every day, every moment. Nobody know how we really live. We live like animal. We have trash all over, we have trash. I live in North Philly and (unintelligible), people have a garage to (unintelligible), they throw the can over there on 166 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 (unintelligible), and we have trash all over, all over. In North Third and Diamond, we have trash, like they need two trailers to take that trash. Why? They clean but people come out to mess it up, and those people in the corner, they are selling drugs in those garages. (Unintelligible) to have the garage to build the business in block. They have (unintelligible). The police officer (unintelligible) they threw trash (unintelligible) on the car in the same place they have the police (unintelligible) for a week. And the police and (unintelligible). They are right there and they are selling in the corner. Why the police don't do nothing about it? We are in trash, we are living between trash. It's a shame. You can't even walk from here to where I live. You can even walk, you know that. We are in the Center City but we are surrounding with trash and it's a shame.
Well, that's the reason why we want to do this bill because what we want to be able to do is clean up those lots and develop them and let people live in a whole lot 167 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 better conditions. And some of the things you complain about, the drugs and all of that, are the direct result of the fact that these lots are there, they're vacant and they represent hangouts, and we have to do something about them, we really have to do something about them because it makes life miserable. And we thank you very much for coming.
I fight with them every day because they see that and they don't do nothing about it.
I'm Miss Bodie, from the 28th Ward, 6th Division. I'm here to ask a question for the lots. If you have torn down a half a block and it may be five or six houses remaining on that one block, does everything that's been demolished, does that become a lot?
It's a lot. 168 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794
I understand that but can one person -- I mean, what are you doing to do with that half a block that's been torn down? Say there was 30 houses on a block, now there's only 5 left?
It's not an issue of what I will do; it's an issue of what the community wants to do. So that in an event where you have a large parcel of property that could have resulted from a series of demolition activities, it will be the will of the community, for the most part, that will prevail in determining what happens. I mean, your Councilperson wouldn't be one to say, Oh, you have to have this. The process envisioned -- and we've done this before -- is you will have to have some community meetings and some people would have to reach a consensus about what they want to happen in large lots. If it's a small lot, you know, maybe next door to a house or something, then, you know, most of the time, people will say, Look, it's next door to your house, you want to fix it up, you 169 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 want to have a little side yard or something, that's one thing. But where there are large tracts of vacant property -- it is entirely possibly, it is entirely possible that the community could decide that it wants to have on an interim basis some kind of activity that might have a park or a sitting park type activity, but eventually wants housing or something else on the lot. What this does is gives the community the flexibility to really go in and do something and not sit around while you go through this long, laborious sheriff's sale process in order to be able to deal with the vacancy.
One more question. The people that get these lots, would they be paying taxes on these properties?
Once they acquire title. 170 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794
Yeah, once they acquire title, and we don't know how long that will take. They won't pay taxes when they first go on 'cause they won't own the property.
And we'll be using the taxes to -- the failure of the property owner to pay the taxes as the excuse to boot 'em off of their property will take away his property rights. The rights we're talking about, for the most part, people are -- they're abandoned property, people don't want 'em. But, you know, there are all those other cases. (Linda Wallace comes forward.)
Good morning. My name is Linda Wallace. I'm the block captain for the --
I'm the block captain for the 1700 block of Marshall Street, and just want to say something. Our block has been coming up and there has been a lot of drugs around there, but from 171 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 neighbors and screaming ad hollering at them and acting like they don't care about 'em and they ain't scared about 'em, so they have moved off the block. But now that they using our block like Make Philadelphia More Beautiful, okay, the houses where the people do have vacant lot property, which I have one beside my house that I have since '92. Now, I'm trying to say that if it's money out there to build up or help these neighbors build up these vacant lots, right, what process would I have to go through to get a fence that would not come out of my pocket? Since I've been taking care of the care of the lot for such a long time.
Well, you would contact your District Councilperson about the possibility of getting a fence, and then your District Councilperson would make a recommendation to --
'Cause I put up some broken faces and made some fences, and the kids, it's so many kids on that block that it's coming down, you know, and it's like. I really do need a 172 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 real fence.
It used to be Shirley Kitchen. I used to have meetings with her once a week.
You're aware of that, but I'm not really aware of who it is.
Yeah, you're probably talking to your District Councilperson. But I don't know. I mean, if Shirley Kitchen, her Senatorial district overlaps significantly my Council district, then it might be that your block is in our district, but we can figure that out for you.
Oh, okay. Thank you. (C. Charles Carmichael comes forward.) 173 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794
My name is C. Charles Carmichael, and I am a part of the Horticultural Society, and I am living in North Philadelphia area. And I am telling you, I am very, very happy, I was very, very happy to see the old dilapidated buildings torn down right next door to me, very happy to see that done. But now, after the buildings are down, the people are beginning to dump on the lots.
And this come to my attention many, many times. And I'm wondering what we could do about stopping people from dumping on the lots after you clear 'em up and try to make 'em look good.
What we can do is pass this bill and give you a right, as a community or as an individual, to go on that lot, fence it, do whatever it is. We might be able to 174 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 get you some help, that's why the Pennsylvania Horticultural Society is involved here. And see, it is our position that you can't abate the public nuisance of vacancy unless you do something on the lot.
And we can talk about it all night and all day. If it's a vacant lot there and nobody's doing anything with it, somebody's going to come and dump trash on it, some kids are going to hang out on it, somebody's going to sell drugs on it, they're going to put up cars on it. This is what happens. So what we can do, and the reason why this legislation is important is 'cause you don't want to have people go on it illegally. You want people to have a right to be there, doing what they have to do, you know what I mean? And this gives them the right. And then, and even further, you have a reasonable expectation that you will end up in ownership of the lot so that you can make permanent plans for the use of the lot without having to worry if somebody's going to come out of 175 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 no place and kick us off the lot. But I can tell you, that unless you're doing something on vacant land, particularly in low-income neighborhoods, there's nothing you can do to stop people from throwing trash and doing that stuff 'cause the faster you catch 'em and you clean it up, there will be somebody who will come right through there and do it again and dirty it up again. So that's what this is all about.
Well, I'm hoping that we can get fencing. That will help a bit. It's a little more difficult to dump over the fence than like it is now.
Absolutely. And it's a whole lot different if you got a fence and if there are flowers, it's a garden, and then are benches, and people are using the lot. Then people are just -- it's just against human nature to throw a bag of trash on a lot that's improved. But if there's nothing there, right, people, they'll just do what they -- whatever they do.
So that's what the 176 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 whole purpose of this.
Good afternoon. My name is Rosa Lacend, and I'm with the Mt. Airy Civic Association. We have several lots on our block, but some of them are owned by the City and also by HUD. Another one is tied up in a (unintelligible) where their attorney is not doing anything about it for over two years. Will those properties also have to go through sheriff's sale?
If a property is in government, in the City inventory, it shouldn't have to go through sheriff sale.
Well, it depends on who owns it. If the Redevelopment Authority opens it and if it's in a neighborhood, and the neighborhood has a plan for it, you should contact the Redevelopment Authority. At the same time you contact, you know, your Councilperson and then you 177 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 sit down with the Redevelopment Authority. And you always want to know, What are your plans, why are you holding this property, right? And if there's no good reason why the Redevelopment Authority or OHCD or one of the other City agencies is holding a property, you know, they should just give it to you. But if they have clear title, then they just give it to you. But there are a lot of, a lot of confusion about people who think vacant property or property is in the City inventory and it might not be.
So if you know it is, then that's simply a matter of your negotiating with the Redevelopment Authority to do something on the lots that you want to do to be done.
Okay. There's also one in the Donor-Taker Program that's been there for over two years, and the attorney for the estate is just not doing anything. The person at the 178 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 Redevelopment Authority has tiredly tried to contact him to do something. He doesn't do anything, so what do we do about it?
Well, I think that's a property that could be eligible for this program.
My name is (unintelligible) Brown, and I am a resident of the West Kensington area, and I'm also a mother and a grandmother, and I work at (unintelligible) Project, an environmental center. We have worked with the Pennsylvania Horticultural Society for many, many years, transforming very ugly lots into beautiful prize-winning gardens. There is a sense of hope and pride among the gardeners that is very contagious. Everybody in the community benefits from these efforts. Fresh, organically-grown vegetables to share, and also the beauty that is there for everyone to enjoy. We have a mission. 179 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 We believe that by transforming these lots into oases, other people will be attracted to invest in this area. We, the residents, can't move to any other place in the City. Personally, I don't want to move to any other place of the City. I want to be able to continue to create gardens, to work with children and their families. And I want to be able to read in The city papers that the so-called bad lands is called "clean, green, beautiful land." Please help us achieve this. Thank you.
My name is Helen Green. I'm block captain for Southwest Germantown Reger Street. And I'm also on the board of Southwest Germantown Neighborhood Partnership. My block has four empty lots on it. On each one of these lots, we would like to build -- have a vegetable garden, either a play area or a city park or play area for our children. Now, when I went to try to obtain one 180 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 of these lots, I was told that GDHDC owned this property. And it's three or four years since they said owned property and they're not doing anything with it on these lots. I went to them and asked them to clean lot up. They told me they did not own this land, that I would have to do it myself. So now they still say they're trying to build houses on this land, and we do not want them to build all these houses on the land. We would like to have a vegetable garden, and also a park or play area for our children because there's none in our area. Since they said they own this building, these lots, there's a model block program going through. Now, my block was not included in this program because they said it's too many empty lots on the block. So I'd like to know what's going on or what can I do about this?
That's a very complicated problem. You really are going to have to talk to your District Councilperson. We can't 181 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 possibly, you know, resolve any of that here today I'm sorry.
You know, it all depends. I mean, what you have given us is a very complicated kind of a problem, and I wouldn't want to begin to start trying to address the details of it here. You should contract your contact your District Councilperson, work with her or him and the various agencies of the City that can help you resolve some of this.
Okay, because they told me, when I went to them and told them to clean it up, they said they didn't own it.
Yeah, I know, and it's just really tough. I wish I could be helpful. But in this public hearing, I couldn't begin to start trying to address all of that.
You have to go to your District Councilperson. It sounds like it 182 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 might be Councilwoman Miller. Okay?
My name is Maryanne Patterson. I'm the block captain of the 1500 block of Wade Street, that is in Donna Miller's district. And my question is, I have a vacant lot, I'm the second house next to it. It's vacant because of me because it was formerly a drug house, and I've had it torn down since then and a new street put on my block. Now, my question is, I have a lunch program for the children that I been running for 13 years, and I would like to acquire the lot and put tables on it and have it fenced in for the children to have someplace to eat their lunches.
This is an activity that could be supported under this bill.
No problem. 183 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794
Good afternoon. My name is Maureen O'Hara. I represent the Penn State Urban Gardening Program, and we're here just to support the addition to this bill. We help people garden on empty lots.
I have pictures to share with you if you'd like to see what the children did this summer. And we support this bill.
Thank you very much. Appreciate it. (Janet Bernstein comes forward.)
Hi. I'm Janet Bernstein. I work for Frankford Group Ministries in Frankford. And we're definitely going to be approaching Councilman Mariano to add Ward 23 and 62 to this.
I can see where it would be very useful. There's a lot of vacant lots and soon-to-be-vacant lots in Frankford, and there's a lot of people, businesses, or organizations that have their eye on those with really good purposes for them. And some of them would be applicable for this. And I want to thank you for addressing this kind of issue, and I hope that you have further progress with the select committee. And I want to just repeat that, yes, it's -- there's been tons of people who have spent tons of time clearing lots. If nothing done is on that lot, immediately afterwards, you've got trash again. If something is done, there's not trash afterwards.
Good afternoon. My name is Paul Malvey, I'm with New Kensington Community 185 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 Development Corporation. We have a fairly successful open space program. We work with the Horticultural Society and OHCD with volunteers and groups, large and small, to clear vacant lots. And we definitely support this bill and will work with our City Councilman, Mr. DiCicco, to have it included into our neighborhood. We would like to add, though, that we would hope that this bill would lead to a way that the acquisition of the properties can be sped up throughout the City.
See, I need to repeat this. This bill can't legally change the acquisition process. What this bill does is allow people to occupy and improve the land during the acquisition process, 'cause acquisition is governed by state law. I mean, there are only limited ways. And no matter what we do here locally, it's a state law process. What I did many, many, many, many, many, many, many years ago was try to find a way to allow people to occupy these vacant buildings -- 'cause at the time, the focus was on vacant buildings -- while we went there all of this 186 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 process, while we went through all of this process. Now, there are other creative things that people can do, by the way, but we can't discuss them all here today. We appreciate your support, but I want to know, and I see the lawyers looking at me, this can't change the acquisition process that's set forth by state lay. There's nothing we can do. But it is a way where we can allow people to go on the vacant lots and in the vacant properties and occupy them to abate a public nuisance while we go through this laborious state law process. Okay?
Yes. I just want to add that we would like to see it include groups as well as individuals that are working.
Thank you very much. Is there anyone else who would like to testify on this bill? 187 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS (No response.)
Thank you very much. This brings us to the end of our public hearing on this bill, which is Bill No. 980794. We will now take testimony on Bill No. 7 980621, 980641, 980685, and these are the bills that are otherwise gloriously referred to as the "sidewalk behavior bills." So I think we have administration witnesses that are here, Mr. Nardone and the Law Department, I see the Health Department representatives, Commissioner Richman. Can we have the City people at the witness table? (Administration witnesses come forward.)
I will be out of the chamber for two minutes, so everybody, don't go anyplace. We're going to do this right now. (Short break taken.) (Proceedings resume.)
Good afternoon, everyone. We are now about to take testimony on some bills: Bill No. 980621, an ordinance amending 188 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS Section 10-611 of The Philadelphia Code entitled "Public Places - Prohibited Conduct," by deleting Section 4, subsection d., under certain terms and conditions; Bill No. 980641, an ordinance amending Section 10-611 of The Philadelphia Code, entitled "Sidewalk Behavior," by providing that certain portions of the 3rd Councilmatic District shall be covered by the prohibitions and penalties set forth in said Section 10-611 of the code; Bill No. 980685, an ordinance amending Section 10-611 of The Philadelphia Code, entitled "Sidewalk Behavior," by providing that the 7th Councilmatic District shall be covered by prohibitions in the bill and penalties set forth in said Section 10-611 of The Philadelphia Code.
Thank you, Council President Street, members of Council. My name is Michael Nardone, Deputy Managing Director for Special Needs Housing. I am joined to today by Estelle Richman, Commissioner of Health; the City Solicitor, Stephanie Franklin-Suber; John Gallagher, Special Advisor to Police Commissioner 189 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS John Timoney; and Dean Kaplan, the City's Budget Director. As you know, last June the Administration testified in support of the sidewalk behavior bill. We continue to support this bill. And since that time, we have been working hard to ensure that it achieves the primary goals of transitioning people off the streets and into appropriate services as well as improving the quality of life for Philadelphia citizens. Consistent with these goals, the Administration has been developing a plan which provided meaningful residential and outreach services to chronically homeless individuals who are presently living on the street. An inter-agency task force, made up of representatives from across City government, including Health and the Police Department, the Office of Emergency Shelter and Services, OHCD, Law, the Budget Office has been meeting since early summer, and the plan developed to date is outlined in the document which I have available for folks for distribution today. 190 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS While enforcement of many of the provisions contained in this bill will not begin until mid-January 1999, the Administration has already launched social-service initiatives contained in this plan. The plan contains several key elements: An enhanced outreach case-management capability focussing on the most chronically homeless individuals; Expanded residential placements providing more appropriate services for this often hard-to-serve population; Increased behavioral health support within the emergency shelter system, as well as an intake case management and day programming; And, finally, development of enforcement protocols and a plan for police training in anticipation of this new ordinance. We believe this represents a comprehensive approach, and we look forward to working with Council over the next few months to ensure that the ordinance achieves the goals set forth by Council in improving this legislation. I would like to turn it over now to 191 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS Commissioner Richman to talk about the new outreach in residential services which we are putting in place. And following Commissioner Richman's presentation, John Gallagher will discuss protocols developed in anticipation of enforcement as well as plans for police training. And also, Dean Kaplan and the City Solicitor are here and available for questions for members of Council. So with that I'd like to turn to Commissioner Richman. COMMISSIONER RICHMAN: Good afternoon, President Street and members of Council. I am Estelle Richman, Commissioner for Public Health. The Health Department continues to see the sidewalk behavioral ordinance as an opportunity to identify and provide services to people with mental illness and/or addictions and are homeless. The Department of Public Health currently funds outreach teams who work on the streets of Philadelphia to engage homeless individuals, many of whom suffer from mental littleness and/or substance addiction to convince them to enter shelter or other supportive 192 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS residential programs. As part of the response to the sidewalk behavior ordinance, we will significantly expand resources devoted to people who are homeless and who need outreach and case management services. Specifically, we plan to more than double the number of persons included in outreach case management, expand the hours outreach is available from 4 hours to 16 hours. In addition, the Behavioral Health Mobile Emergency Team will also be able to respond to calls for assistance.
We plan to refocus outreach by targeting the 200 people who have been identified in Center City and provide them with case management to ensure placement in the appropriate setting and the support needed to monitor them in such a facility. By combining outreach and case management, we provide continuity of person and increase the probability that an individual will remain in housing and in treatment. We plan to enhance the outreach Coordination Center at Project Home to prepare it for the expanded City outreach effort. This will include a new management information system to 193 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS track clients and provide data for strategic planning. An outreach project coordinator has been hired, and a data coordinator is being hired. In addition to increased outreach efforts, the task force has developed a plan to create several new residential programs for people who have had chronic homelessness. Between November 1998 and mid-1999, approximately 160 new residential beds are projected to be created for individuals with mental illness and substance addiction who have had chronic homelessness. To this end, the City is developing two 25-person entry-level residences with the appropriate level of support for individuals coming off the street. We are creating 50 permanent supported, independent living sites by July 1999. Individuals currently in entry-level facilities will be transitioned to the supported independent living sites, creating 50 entry-level openings in current mental-health and substance-abuse residences. We will create 13 entry-level openings in current substance-abuse residences by developing one new recovery house by December 194 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS 1st. Individuals currently in entry-level residences will move into this facility, freeing up a corresponding number of entry-level slots. We have initiated development of two new Safe Haven facilities to come on line in early fiscal year 2,000. And we've hired a coordinator to manage the outreach case management and residential service initiatives and a residential gate-keeper to manage the flow of clients into residential placement. In addition, several meetings have been held with providers to discuss mission, values, and operational procedures. Reporting requirements target population, and communication mechanisms are also reviewed. Approximately 100 people, all providers, have attended these sessions. I will now turn the testimony over to John Gallagher of the Police Department. And at the end, I'd be happy to answer any questions.
Point of information. Are you going to allow all the 195 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS testimony first, then come back?
Yeah, we'll come back and everybody will have -- we'll have the classic free-for-all.
Good afternoon. My name is John Gallagher. I'm an advisor to Police Commissioner Timoney. He asked me to express his apology that he could not be here in person today. It was unavoidable. But he did ask me and his counsel, Karen Simmons, to be here to give you an update on our progress in the Philadelphia Police Department with the sidewalk behavior ordinance in the past several months. We've had many meetings, both internally and with the Office of Special Needs Housing and the Health Department on this ordinance. " This is a civil enforcement tool that looks similar to a traffic ticket. We've also decided that, at least 196 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS initially, the police supervisors will carry these CVNs in their vehicles so that whenever the ordinance comes into play in the early stages, a supervisor will have to be called to the scene before enforcement. We just think that when an ordinance is new and confusing to the officers, that's the safest practice. The first side of the ordinance dealing with the bicycle-riding and the parking on the sidewalk and such will be easy to enforce. When a violation is detected, the officer simply issues a CVN the way that a parking or moving violation might be issued. More problematic are the provisions that deal with lying or sitting on the sidewalk and the various panhandling prohibitions. In these instances, officers are being trained to follow the protocol as established in the ordinance, and they're going to follow that protocol to the letter of the law. This includes the warning procedures. First the verbal, then the written warning to follow in English and Spanish. Should the offender refuse to heed these warning, to cease 197 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS the violation, the ordinance requires the officer to determine whether the offender is in need of, quote, social services, unquote. After much discussion, we all agreed that this is a very difficult call for a police officer to make because it's involving ascertaining the need for or food shelter, psychological treatment, alcohol or chemical dependency, and other needs. Therefore, the Police Department and the Police Commissioner have determined that it's best if the officer assumes that the need for social services exists. The ordinance requires that once the determination is made that the need exists, then the officer must call for an outreach team. Prior to issuing a CVN or taking any enforcement steps, the officer must await the arrival of the outreach team. If the outreach team is not available, then under the ordinance, the enforcement is precluded. We have been creating a directive, a police directive that the officers will need to follow. It's the law of the Police Department. 198 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS We're on our fourth version. It's been completed and circulated to our working group for comments. Upon final completion of this directive, it will be issued and it will be the basis for our training in the Police Department. If you allow me a moment, I'd like to discuss the training, which will be in several different components. First of all, commanding officers of each district and their training officers will go to the Police Academy and be trained in the enforcement this ordinance. The training officers then will be able to return to each district and train the rest of the police officers. A second part of the training focuses on new police recruits. We have made this ordinance and enforcement of this ordinance a part of the new curriculum that all new police recruits must study and must master before they graduate from the Academy. A third aspect of training involves the annual recertification that's required under Pennsylvania law for a police officer to remain a police officer in the Commonwealth. 199 11/18/98 COMM.
OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS And, finally, videotaped scenarios are being created that will depict the various common situations that we anticipate will arise under this ordinance and the enforcement of this ordinance. It's important to note that all this training is being designed and is being conducted in conjunction with the Health Department and outreach team personnel. We've already begun this training with these folks. This is not only Police Department training. We've also begun outreach team ride-alongs with police officers, so we're very confident and very optimistic at this beginning stage for the inter-agency interaction and cooperation that we've had so far. If anyone has any questions when we're done, I'll be happy to try to answer them.
Thank you very much. The Chair recognizes Councilman Kenney.
Thank you, Mr. President. For Commissioner Richman or for Mr. Nardone, how much new City General Fund dollars will be employed to expand the current services as 200 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS discussed in your testimony as compared to dollars coming from either CDH proceeds or federal and state grants or other sources of other governments? How much is actually new monies coming out of our General Fund? And what is the projection of that over the course of, say, the next five years.
Dean Kaplan. The City's Budget Director. In the FY '99, we are projecting that the General Fund contribution for sidewalk ordinance implementation will be $840,150. And that is included in the transfer ordinance, which was forwarded to City Council with a request that it be introduced last week, which it was. We have estimated ongoing costs for the current plan of $4.7 million. We have not divided the outyear costs between General Fund, CVH grants or general revenue fund source yet; in part, because we want to get some sense from the first several months of the implementation of exactly what those costs will be, where they'll come from, what might be eligible for different funding streams. 201 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS There's no question that there will be an increasing portion of General Fund contribution necessary, though, as we go out.
That's the annual recurring cost for what we're proposing this year. The total cost for this year is about 5.7 because there's some start-up dollars involved.
How long do you think it would take, either from an analysis standpoint or from an implementation standpoint, to determine what impact on the General Fund this program's going to have through the course of, I guess, forever through the course of its life?
Well, I think we'll a more detailed estimate when the mayor proposes his budget at the end of January. We'll include our estimate of where the program will be. As I said, I think that we have to all assume that that is going to change, however.
Then I won't pressure you anymore than to ask if you have a guesstimate. 202 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS
My assumption is that because a lot of the program right now is depending on CVH reinvestment dollars, and we can't assume that those dollars will be here forever, that the majority of that 4.7 will eventually end up in the General Fund, say, maybe three-quarters of it, so a little over 3 million.
Presumably, in the very long, it will increase, at least from an inflationary rate. It also depends on our success in having people staying off of the streets and stay in some sort of treatment and eventually make a transaction to less demand for --
Well, I think that that gets to my next question, which is: What type of interview process do we undertake now to determine where these people have come from originally? Are the predominantly Philadelphians, do they come from the region, have they come from outside of the region? Do we conduct, on intake or through 203 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS continual contact with them, just exactly what their origin was? Were they originally Philadelphians who lived in or neighborhoods? I mean, we had some reports that people, you know, who had been in, for example, the New Jersey prison system that wind up either on the streets of Philadelphia or in one of our shelters. And what -- if we don't do it now, what is our -- what's the potential of at least getting some kind of file or case on these people as to where exactly it is they came from? COMMISSIONER RICHMAN: It's a several-part question. We do do it now, probably not as thoroughly, because we all have some concerns of whether people outside the region will be coming in to take advantage of some of the new services. We do try to find out now where the people, so to speak, slept before they became homeless. The majority of the people by far are people who have been in Philadelphia. We're trying to tighten that system, to make sure we can confirm that a person is a Philadelphia resident. And part of the reason 204 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS that we have built in a tracking system with an MIS system is to know that, to try to figure out how people are moving, what are the reasons for their homelessness. Are they homeless because of their disability, are they homeless because some kicked them out, are they homeless because they've been discharged from another facility. So we're really trying not only to look forward, but we are also trying to figure out where in the past has the system broken down so we can stop homelessness at the first level.
But today, generally, we don't really know the -- we kind of generally know their origin, but we don't know for sure. COMMISSIONER RICHMAN: We aren't tracking it through an MIS system now. We generally ask the question; it is not being strictly tracked. We will now start tracking it.
Is there a plan for how to do that? Is there a set of protocols that intake workers, counselors, other people will have to undergo to try to determine the origin of these individuals? 205 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS COMMISSIONER RICHMAN: There are a whole series of formats that the case managers will have to fill out on people as well as getting in part what will be the data that will be captured by the MIS system. But as you know, MIS data is only as good as the people who input it.
Right. COMMISSIONER RICHMAN: So that we will be trying to capture as much information as we possibly can by the case managers and are equipping them with protocol to be able to capture that data.
If we discover that a reasonable percentage of people originally came from somewhere else, either in the region or another state or another region of the country, has there ever been any discussion or contemplation of trying to recapture some of the costs that are associated with those services and these expanded services from the jurisdiction where these people originally came from? 'Cause one of my concerns is if we do this so well, if we are so successful in putting the dollars forward, finding the monies from 206 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS savings for CVH, or I'm less enthralled with the expanding need of funds coming from the General Fund, but we can see how it works out. If we become good at this, do we risk the possibility of absorbing the burden of social services for every surrounding community around Philadelphia or in the region or in the middle states area?
Well, I think you raise a very good point, and I think that's something we're going to have to monitor going forward. Just to add on what Estelle has said, in the initial planning of this, we really are targeting individuals who really have been the most chronically homeless and they've been known to the system for a long time. And I think that in terms of the planning that we've been doing in this initial phase, we've really been focussing on that group who -- I don't know where they were maybe five years ago but that they have been residing on the streets for --
And even if look at our population now and, say, this is the picture that we have in 1998, how do we keep -- how do we stop being the social-service provider for the 207 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS region into the future? COMMISSIONER RICHMAN: We're actually trying to be very sensitive to this. In the late 1980s, 1988, '89, Philadelphia probably had a larger homeless system than most of the surrounding communities. And we were aware that people, we thought, were busing people in, giving them tokens, giving them money to come into Philadelphia. We did often meet with some of those counties around why we couldn't do this, and that we would be returning people that we didn't think had residency in Philadelphia to those counties, and they needed to take responsibility for them. There was never a financial move to recapture the dollars; there was more of an effort to return the individuals to those accountable states or counties. Again, as move into a cutting-edge system, I think we're going to have to be very vigilant in terms of mistaking sure we're serving people who have a history of being in Philadelphia. Part of that is beginning to target people -- know the names, know the histories, know 208 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS they've been in Philadelphia and make sure that we are aware of who these folks are. Of course, there are people who are new to the system in terms of having been in Philadelphia who are recently homeless that we need to be careful not to exclude in this process.
Yeah, I want to be sensitive and want us to take care of our own. COMMISSIONER RICHMAN: Right.
But I think it's inherently unfair in a city that's facing what it's facing from a tax base and from a social problem perspective to have to absorb what surrounding, more affluent counties and townships and cities will not or refuse to absorb and place on the backs of the middle-class taxpayers in Philadelphia. And that's why, from a (unintelligible), I have some serious concerns, although not opposition at this point, but serious concerns to the expanding reliance on the General Fund potentially to provide these services 'cause I think middle-class taxpayers are also struggling and also need that consideration. 209 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS
I want to say that and to expand on your comments to include low-income taxpayers too, 'cause low-income taxpayers are paying too.
Let me correct my characterization. I'm talking about people who get up every day and struggle to go to work.
And take care of their children, pay their taxes, get to work get on public transportation or keep their car running. "Middle class" maybe is too generic a term. How about "working people"?
That's right 'cause a lot of low-income people are also footing the bill. To tell you how concerned some of us are about all of this, we were here and remember the infamous night when the fellow went on "Nightline," and said, "If you're homeless, go to 210 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS Philadelphia. Philadelphia has the best homeless programs in the country." I mean, I saw it when it happened and I was stunned. And I was a member of this Council. I think I was the Appropriations Committee Chairman at the time. And we ended up, much to the dismay of a lot of people, deciding that we had to draw a line in the sand because we were becoming the homeless capital, not only of the region, not only of this little small region, but of the larger region. And it created all kind of problems for us because people were literally coming, and some of 'em were coming and some of 'em camped outside my office for several months as a result of some of the actions that we took. There are two things that have concerned us over the course of implementing -- of discussing this program. One was welfare reform that has the potential to create numerous people who could end up being impacted by this bill. And, two, if we do too good a job, we can't have people from the entire region, including Jersey and other states, coming here because they believe this is the place where they can go and get the 211 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS best treatment available at the expense of people who are here. And part of the information and technology system that is being purchased and put into effect will help us to be able to both identify and therefore know where people come from and be able to control that kind of problem. But it's a very, very serious concern.
I think we're all willing to take care of the needy members of our Philadelphia family, and we want to make sure just who those family members are.
Councilwoman, before you get started, it has been brought to my attention by Councilwoman Blackwell that Amy Williams, Mike Hardy and Paul Stienke and Abdul-Malik Muhammad are all here from her district to testify on this bill, and I think they are here to testify on Bill No. 980641, which is a 212 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS bill that was introduced by Councilwoman Blackwell to include certain sections of her district in the bill. We are going to have to continue with this discussion for a few minutes. If you want to just identify yourself for the record and state your support for the bill 8 -- I understand people have meetings to go to -- the Chair would be more than willing to allow that at this time. If you want to stand up and do that right now, we will allow that.
My name is Paul Stienke, Executive Director of the University City District. We are in favor of this bill, and I have prepared testimony which I can leave behind.
My name is Amy Williams. I am President of (inaudible, speaking off-mike) and Chair of the University City Community Council, which represents all the neighborhood associations in University City. We supports Bill 23 No. 980641.
Thank you. Is there anyone else, the other folks? Abdul-Malik Muhammad, would you like to just identify yourself and say whether you support the bill.
(Not entirely audible, speaking off-mike.) I'm the president of the (inaudible), and we do support the bill.
Thank you very much. What about Mr. Hardy? UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: He is not here.
You want to represent him? Just kidding. Okay. Well, thank you very much. You're certainly welcome to stay and testify if you like, but if you do have to leave, at least you're in the record, and your support for the bill, Councilwoman Blackwell has circulated an amendment which I know you've seen and support.
And you may leave your testimony, and we'll incorporate it into the record. Thank you very much. 214 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS Councilwoman. The Chair recognizes you for questions or comments.
Thank you. As many of you know, we circulated throughout West Philadelphia a quality-of-life newsletter, and --
Councilwoman, you're going to have to speak just a little louder.
Okay. We circulated during these hearings a quality-of-life newsletter and an opinion poll on the rear of it, which many of you have seen. When we took the poll, certainly we did not poll the University City area because we met with them, and that community wanted in. The result of our polls showed that two-thirds of District wanted out, and a third of the district, the University City Community Council area, that includes an umbrella group of organizations (Squirrel Hill, Cedar Park, Spruce Hill, and several others) wanted in, and that is why we stated in the article and believe that we are -- and agreed to abide by the opinion of the people in the District because we believe that it is our duty and obligation to represent them, 215 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS irrespective of our on preference. And that is why we have asked that that area be included. And we're glad to do that. I would say on this subject that we're talking about now is that several years ago, the President was around then and many of us, Councilwoman Verna, we had a debate about us funding people in the region and not in the area, and certainly OESS now, anybody who goes for emergency shelter now has to show where they have come from. I mean, we do not -- we no longer do that for many years. And we are not the, quote/unquote, social-service provider of the region, we stopped that many, many years ago, in the eighties because it was a big issue. But we do have a lot of people, unfortunately, in our City and homeless and who will be further impacted, as the President just said, on welfare cuts. I certainly am glad to see that the Police Commissioner and his department has agreed to send for social-service outreach when people, after a verbal warning and a written warning don't move. Some people are not going to move if you 216 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS give them a notice in writing, we know that. They were people on the street in the beginning. They could be mentally ill, drug-addicted, or absolutely hostile because they're are out there. And I still think that it is unconscionable that we're fining them, we still have a right to fine them $25 when they're homeless in the beginning. And I still find all the provisions that I found terrible in the back even getting a planner and having to get a permit for a planner, not being able to ride a bike on your sidewalk or sit or stand, all of those things, like having luggage or a backpack or a suitcase on the sidewalk for more than 15 minutes, and I still find all the issues out there unconscionable, they're unconscionable now. But I will say that in terms of the initiatives that are specifically mentioned, I've had hear Commissioner Richman talk about what they want to do in a mental-health and drug-and-alcohol issue, but in terms of the -- in terms of the issue that deals with homeless people, we introduced a bill to transfer million into the 25 budget. Councilman Nutter introduced a bill that 217 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS would transfer money, I believe it was 15, into the Health Department and OESS. And the issue is that we are focussing on people who have drug-and-alcohol and mental-health problems. But for plain, ordinary homeless people, people who could be out burned out today, as happens on the news every day, and people who are just down on their luck, we do not have resources for them. Thirty beds is nice, but 30 beds won't take care of what we have now. And I say to this Council that we do not have shelter for people who need it. I'm glad to hear that they're starting a day program at Ridge. You've got to do a lot more than one shelter, if you want a convention here, even in Center City, without homeless people here on the streets. You need day programs, but we need plain outright homeless beds for people who need it, Philadelphians who come from neighborhoods all over the City, we need homeless beds.
And this bill does not address that. It addresses that people have to disappear, but it does not say where they go, there is no money 218 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS really budgeted for homeless people. The pittance that was mentioned here is almost insulting. So I say to my colleagues, we still have not dealt with the issue. I know this bill 6 passed that says you can't lie or sit on the sidewalk, can't set a suitcase on the sidewalk for more than 15 minutes, you can be locked up in front of your house if you have an argument with your mate and they call the police and say you're obstructing the view. You still have to get a permit for all kinds of things, from vending to handbills. All of that, I find unconscionable respond. But since that bill passed, I will respond to the to the issue that, Mr. President, we do not have beds for homeless people, and the situation will be exacerbated on March 3rd, when the welfare cuts come in. And I certainly would like for the Council to address that. We are not paying for people out of the region, we're talking about Philadelphians who don't have shelter. What are we going to do about that?
Thank you very much. 219 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS The Chair recognizes Councilman DiCicco.
Thank you, Mr. President. My question is for Commissioner Richman. A couple of weeks ago, there was a briefing in the mayor's cabinet room as it relates to this bill. And one of my colleagues, I think, raised the question, Would we as Council people be notified in advance of any facilities that may be placed in our districts? On of the summary plan, the implementation plan summary, you mention that there are two 25-person entry-level residencies, one of which has already opened. And the second is projected to be open in early 1999. Could you tell me the location of those two facilities? COMMISSIONER RICHMAN: I don't have in front of me the addresses. One of the 25-person entry-level residences is one that we've used in past years.
Which is. . . ? COMMISSIONER RICHMAN: Which we used it 220 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS last year.
Where? I don't mean an exact address but, the street name, the intersection would be fine. COMMISSIONER RICHMAN: 20th and Tioga.
And the other one? COMMISSIONER RICHMAN: The other one, at this point -- West Tioga. I don't think we have found a site for the second one as of yet. We're still looking.
Well, let me ask you this 'cause I got a call a few days ago where someone suggested to me that there's a site on Spring Garden Street, around Second or Third and Spring Garden that is being looked at. COMMISSIONER RICHMAN: We are looking. We haven't identified -- I'm not even sure where are. Has that one --
I mean, one of the groups that we've been talking to has put that forward, but no decisions -- I mean, we haven't -- we're still in the initial stages of identifying sites.
Well, the group 221 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS that you're speaking to, if they decide that that's a site that's suitable, would you make the decision to put the facility before you speak to the Councilperson -- who happens to be me in this case -- or would you just go forward and contract for that facility?
Our intention is to advise Council of where we're putting the facilities related to the sidewalk ordinance.
Because the information I got, and that's why I'm asking it for the record is that the decision has already been made. And my other question, I guess, goes to: What type of clients, residents will be housed in this facility at Spring Garden Street, if that were the place that you decided on? COMMISSIONER RICHMAN: These will be people that have mental illness or addiction problems and who are homeless.
Substance abuse, 222 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS alcohol abuse? COMMISSIONER RICHMAN: Right. I mean, any kind of addition -- mental, drug, alcohol abuse or a severe mental illness, or co-occurring.
When a decision is made where you begin to look at a site for a facility, does any consideration -- is there any consideration given to the area where the facility will be located, the sounding area and any type of impact that that facility or the facilities and businesses around it may have on that facility? For instance, the place on Spring Garden Street, I think, is one block of Finnegan's Wake, which is a very popular night spot and serves alcohol. And I'm wondering if that is the appropriate place or a place that would be the best type of place to have a facility that would house people with alcohol-abuse problems. COMMISSIONER RICHMAN: In our attempt not to be in a residential area, we've been looking at more commercial areas. Unfortunately, if we exclude almost any area that's not commercial or any area that is nonresidential, it would be very difficult to locate these facilities 223 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS where people would be accepting them. So we're trying to find a balance. And, certainly, in looking at this particular area, it seems to be mostly commercial. There's not a lot of residential family homes around, which makes it more suitable for a residential facility of this type.
Well, I guess we can debate whether it's residential versus commercial. It's becoming much more residential, the area is seeing a lot of growth in the residential section. But I also think that we have to be more sensitive to the commercial aspect and what type of commercial business is being conducted there. I mean, this is not a 9-to-5 operation. Finnegan's Wake is open 7 days a week, and they literally serve thousands of people alcohol during the 7 days that they're open. And I'm not a NIMBY. I think everyone knows me by now. I'm not a NIMBY, I generally try to find some common ground, but I really would like to know well in advance before a decision is made. And I would also like to try to be helpful, 224 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS to see if I can find you a site in my Councilmatic District that can avoid some of the problems that I foresee coming. Tomorrow night, I have a meeting with the Northern Liberties Civic Association. They represent the area at Third and Spring Garden. They are already complaining about this facility, and I didn't even know for certain whether it was being looked at or not, and I'd like to have this information in advance. COMMISSIONER RICHMAN: We will talk to you about this particular site.
Thank you. COMMISSIONER RICHMAN: I think we would be willing to work with all of Council around identifying sites for these kinds of programs in any of the areas. We are looking for about three sites now that would house people with mental illness and substance-abuse issues, where we need to house approximately people. 22
Thank you. 23 I have no further questions at this 24 time. Thank you. 25
Thank you. 225 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Miller.
Thank you, Mr. President. Commissioner, can you describe the difference between the people that would be going into the entry-level houses and a personal-care clientele? COMMISSIONER RICHMAN: I'm not sure. The distinction? People who are going into entry-level housing and what other kind of housing?
And the residents that are already in a personal-care home. COMMISSIONER RICHMAN: People in personal-care homes don't necessarily have treatment issues. They may have a drug and alcohol problem, they may have a mental illness, but they don't have to have them to be in those kinds of homes. People in these houses, by definition, will have some type of disability. They will either have an addiction, or they have a mental illness, or they will have both. 226 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS
Okay. Because 20th and Tioga, the one that you actually have is certainly in my district. And I know that was a personal-care facility prior to it now being the entry-level residence. COMMISSIONER RICHMAN: Okay. This was an entry-level residence last year.
Okay. COMMISSIONER RICHMAN: So we did not consider it a new facility. It had been zoned for the activity that we're doing this year in the past year of the.
Okay. But I would like to also know ahead of time in the future. Someone did mention it to me, but it was sort of informal, just through a conversation, about what used to be Perkins, and they did mention that it was also zoned that way last year. COMMISSIONER RICHMAN: Yes, it's been under the zoning to permit this kind of housing for at least two years.
Okay. Well, I'd like to know too ahead of time. Thank you.
Thank you very much. 227 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS The Chair recognizes Councilman Kenney.
Thank you, Mr. President. To continue on that line of questioning from Councilman DiCicco and Councilmember Miller, it is my understanding through dealing with issue like this in the past that under the American With Disabilities Act, people have an absolute right to establish residence to gain the support and help that they need. But one of the main restrictions on the protection of ADA is that people have to be recovered. They cannot continue to use alcohol or drugs. And then once that happens, or if it happens that individual is no longer protected under ADA. Is that incorrect? My understanding is that residential facility for substance-abuse issues comes under the protection of the ADA Act and the Fair Housing Act, as long as the individuals residing there continue to remain clean and sober. Is that accurate? COMMISSIONER RICHMAN: That is generally correct. 228 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS
What protocols, what rules would be in effect at these facilities that would ensure the cleanliness and sobriety of the individuals who are residing there? COMMISSIONER RICHMAN: Realistically, we cannot assure that's going to take place. Our concern is making sure that people who have addictions are going to receive some treatment and have a place to live. We know that we are bringing them into housing, that they have not, in some cases, made that commitment yet, but the job of the staff in that housing is hoping to get them to do that. If we exclude these individuals from coming into these houses where we will have an opportunity to convince them to be clean and sober, we will end up with them back on the street.
Right. COMMISSIONER RICHMAN: So our hope was, at least if have their body, if we have them in a residential setting, we can work with around trying to help them understand why they need to make a decision. If we exclude them, we have no way to 229 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS convince them --
There's no 4 suggestion or discussion about exclusion. COMMISSIONER RICHMAN: Okay.
People who are on the street who have substance-abuse problems need to be indoors and need to be in some program to help them change. COMMISSIONER RICHMAN: That's correct.
The question is, in a 25-person residential setting, obviously, if you have kids in the family, you'd have to have 14 rules and regulations and protocols to ensure that 15 this facility could integrate and cooperate and 16 work well with the surrounding commercial or 17 residential community. 18 My question is, what are those 19 protocols? And are they in some written form that 20 we can determine from the operator of the facility 21 what their responsibilities is to at least ensure 22 to the best of their ability that people are no 23 longer continuing to abuse alcohol or drugs? 24 COMMISSIONER RICHMAN: I do believe 25 they all have protocols that no one can use or 230 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS abuse alcohol while they're in those facilities.
And what happens to those people, if they're discovered? COMMISSIONER RICHMAN: If they're struggling?
Yes. COMMISSIONER RICHMAN: If they're usually in the facility, they're usually asked to leave and invited back once they stop using. But if there are not protocols that are very strict in that, we will try to make sure they do exist.
Could you possibly provide to the Chair and Members of Council with those specific protocols that would be employed by companies or by groups or nonprofits that would be operating these entry level facilities? And the only other thing I would suggest, and, again, not a District Councilmember speaking but listening to what District Councilmembers have said already, I think you need to do more than just advise the District Council people where you're putting 'em, because the suggestion that you're going to advise them means that you've already made the decision, it's going 231 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS there, and we're just going to let you know about it. And I think there needs to be more of a process involved in that happening, as opposed to simply calling somebody on the phone and saying it's there. COMMISSIONER RICHMAN: We will make every attempt to work with members of Council. We have felt a little bit of pressure to make sure that these facilities are up and renovated by the time ordinance goes into effect.
But, remember, the thing that I've learned in the time that we've been dealing with this problem, from advocates of organizations that try to get people clean and sober, is this they do not work without the cooperation of the surrounding community. If they become isolate an isolated island, people who are not getting the cooperation of the surrounding community, then they're not going to be successful. So kind of doing it and trying to get the cooperation after the fact, I think it's kind of a tandem effort that needs to be undertaken to tell people what's going on, enlist their support, 232 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS and make them sensitive to what those needs are as opposed to plopping something down and then trying to accomplish that afterwards. COMMISSIONER RICHMAN: Okay.
I just want to say, Councilman Kenney, I would like to work with you and members of Council to try to identify some of these sites. This is a real challenge in terms of trying to find an appropriate area to put in facilities. And any help that members of Council can provide in that respect, I think, would be very helpful. I mean, we spend a lot of time looking for sites, and a lot of effort has gone into facilities that meet the requirements of the various agencies to provide the type of oversight and the type of environment for clients. And if there was some assistance that members of Council could provide in that area, I think that would be a very helpful thing.
But, again, not assistance, but be provided without --
Yeah, without the 233 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS prior information. COMMISSIONER RICHMAN: This is the first time we will be doing entry-level housing and drug and alcohol, so we'll be watching and working with it very carefully. Up to this point, the drug and alcohol system has mostly been recovery houses where there is a requirement for clean and sober in order to be in the housing.
Well, I don't want to get into that subject, but that's for recovery houses that are licensed -- COMMISSIONER RICHMAN: That are licensed by --
That are contracted by the City or state, but not all those other guys out there. COMMISSIONER RICHMAN: You are absolutely correct.
And that's what we want to try to avoid. COMMISSIONER RICHMAN: Yes.
The Chair recognizes 234 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS Councilman Mariano.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just to follow up on what Councilman Kenney spoke talking about, I didn't know he was going to say that. Commissioner, I mean, I don't really understand. We talked about this in mayor's cabinet last week. Now you're putting in another place in another District Council's office without talking to him. I mean, it's simple. You either let us know or you don't do it. COMMISSIONER RICHMAN: We have not put someone in --
But we're talking about something, and we're not even talking to Councilman DiCicco. COMMISSIONER RICHMAN: We are just beginning. We've been looking for housing. We usually look at several housing before a definite decision is made.
Commissioner, you know, I really don't understand this. Sometimes I think maybe you just don't like me and I suppose 235 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS I'll have to live with that. You put the one up in my district with Komar (ph.), it caused me grief and anguish for a year. Then we tell you at a meeting that we don't want to have it and got to let us know, but you just told Councilman Kenney that, Well, sometimes we're under a rush to get these things. The people that live in these districts need to be able to know what's going to happen in their world. And we can talk about villages and we can talk about everything but nothing happens that doesn't affect the District Councilperson. We're like the marines at Okinawa. We're the ones that go on the beach first, we're the ones that get the mud in our face and the bullets in our head. You know, whatever you do, when they come down, they don't go picket Ed Rendell's house, they do mine. They don't call Ed Rendell's office or your office, they call mine. When a crazy guy goes up there and smashes the window on Oxford Avenue, I'm sure they don't call you about it, they call me. That's what I need to know. I mean, I don't understand it. If I 236 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS was going to move to John Street's street, would say, "John, how's your neighborhood? Is it a nice neighborhood, John? What are the schools like? Is there a supermarket close? Is there a place I can go jogging? Can I walk my dog?" I mean, that's all I'm asking, common courtesy. But it seems like the agenda -- and it's a good agenda, but you're stepping on our heads. COMMISSIONER RICHMAN: Councilman Mariano, we will try very hard to make sure that all Councilpeople know when we first start looking.
Well, Commissioner, let me tell you, trying hard enough may not be good enough. 'Cause I'm going to tell you right now, now this is from a District Councilmember, but there's --
I know you are. 237 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS But, you know, but I can't live with this anymore, Mr. President. They tell us stuff and then they don't do it.
They don't do it. I mean, it's simple. Yes, Councilman, we'll just let you know. We could have saved a lot of money on that one issue, now we're talking about something else.
Well, I thought it was well made at the mayor's cabinet office.
Can we stress how well it has to be made? I mean, there's no gray area here, it's black or white. You either tell me or you don't. You either tell the District Council people or you don't. Thank you, Mr. President.
Thank you very much. Commissioner, I just want to say one 238 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS thing about those -- you understand I hope you understand -- COMMISSIONER RICHMAN: Yes.
Mr. President, I have been here since 1976 as an elected official for Council. And, honestly, I think we have become -- you know, I said earlier on that this bill violates the first, eighth, and fourteenth amendments, and I absolutely do not believe that it's going to withstand the challenge that will come. But I refuse to be part of a discussion that talks about everything except the victims and the people who are homeless. Somebody's got to say that we are our brother's keeper and that we, as elected officials, have a responsibility to try to resolve this problem. I resent the fact that everybody says, Sure, don't make it in my neighborhood, and I 239 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS don't want any city dollars for these people, those people, those dirty, filthy, smelly people. You know, people just don't disappear. I don't understand how this Council could try to give that tone in the record, and I won't be a party to that. We can solve our homeless problem -- I've said it since I've been here -- if we have the commitment to do so. It doesn't take a lot of money. The implications of the Republican Convention coming here, I understand are $300 million. We find money for things we deem important. It doesn't cost a lot of money, but it takes a little bit of commitment and a little bit of people wanting to work it out and to not blame the victims for being homeless. I think it's time that we refocus our energies on solving the problem and stop thinking that every dollar you spend, if you spend something, if you find a bed for somebody, you're doing somebody a doggone big favor, when these are people who live here, who were born here, and who have rights too. These are people who vote. These are 240 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS people who, when they're on their feet, pay taxes. And these are people who have families and who can down on their luck and who live and breathe as we do. I am urging my colleagues, let's take a look at that, let's talk about more about solving the problem instead of what problem it creates for each of us. I resent that and I won't be a party to that, and I resent the whole tone of this Council, which is why I said in our last Council session that I will not be a part of these, quote/unquote, quality-of-life laws that continue to take away rights. I resent that. I resent people who say you can't talk too loud, you can't get utilities if somebody in your family's been convicted of drugs. You can't do all of these because there's some problem in your family because you've been down on your luck. God only knows, as we've heard many times, there but for the grace of God go I. None of us is dead yet. We don't know what the future brings. And I'm not afraid fail but only afraid that if don't stand up for what know in our hearts 241 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS is right, if we don't you fulfill our obligations as elected officials, then we have done wrong by the citizens we're elected represent. My goodness, we don't just represent people who are doing well and who make decent salaries and live in as nice houses as we do. We represent everybody. We don't have the right to make that decision. Within my Councilmatic district, I represent all kinds of people, all races of people, all people from all income levels, and people with all kinds of ideas, but we don't have a right to say I'm only going to represent a certain group of them. The rest of them need to find some place out of the City, and we're not paying any tax dollars for them. Well, we don't have a right to do that. It is our job, it is our responsibility as elected officials to find a way to resolve this problem. And we know how to do it, we know how to do it. Let's stop crying about putting a few dollars, which is not, Mr. President, in this description. You know, why don't we find a way to 242 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS pay shelters every months, a lousy $12 a month.
In New York, they get a hundred dollars a head. Here, we get $12 a day. It doesn't pay diapers and food and clothing and shelter -- $12 a person, that's what we pay. Why don't we pay shelter leaders on time? Why don't we work? I've talked with the Administration about a grant program. There's some state money available. Why don't we give shelters grants so that these shelters where so many people are outside because the shelters are so bad that they don't want to live inside. Let's have decent shelters where people can say, Let's pay shelter leaders on time, let's not have them call me to keep their utilities on because they can't afford to pay gas and electric because the City can't pay them on time, and everybody's everybody's stuck. Everybody's a victim because we have not prioritized that as a city, and we need to do that. Let's refocus ourselves on -- let's refocus our energies on the kind of leaders that we want to be, the kind of leaders we can look up to and be proud of. That's the kind of Council I 243 11/18/98 COMM. OF WHOLE - SIDEWALK BEHAVIOR BILLS want to say we are, and that's the kind of leader I want to say I am. And that's what I think all of us should do. Thank you, Mr. President.
Thank you very much. At this time, I would like to bifurcate this hearing. By that I mean, recess I would like to the public hearing, go into the public meeting, and take an action on the bills that are ready at this time so that then we can continue the discussion here. - - - 244 11/18/98 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - PUBLIC MEETING
So at this time, we will recess the public hearing. We will know go into a public meeting. And at the public meeting, I would like to recognize Councilwoman Verna for a motion on Bill No. 980549, the first TIF bill.
Mr. Chairman, I move that Bill No. 980549 be reported out of this committee with a favorable recommendation.
Mr. President, I have an amendment to the bill. Should I offer that now?
Okay. I have an amendment to the bill which was discussed earlier with Council for the Reading Terminal Market and the representatives of PIDC. Do I need to read that in?
I have it here to be circulated. 245 11/18/98 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - PUBLIC MEETING
Please circulate it, and can we get help? I'd like to see it.
While it's being circulated, can I read into the record a small letter from Bob Butera from the Pennsylvania Convention Center?
It's addressed to me, dated today, November 17, 1998. Dear Councilman DiCicco: I am writing to you in support of the proposed Convention Center Garage now under consideration for a Tax Increment Financing. I believe that the construction of this facility would greatly enhance our plans for the Convention Center and the years to come and will stimulate further economic development of the area around the Convention Center. Thank you for your consideration in this matter. Sincerely, Robert Butera, Executive Director of the Pennsylvania Convention. Thank you.
Thank you very much. Councilman, would you like to offer the 246 11/18/98 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - PUBLIC MEETING amendment?
Yes, sir. The amendment to Bill No. 980549, it's an addition to be added under Section 3.
Does everyone have a copy of the amendment? Everyone has a copy of the amendment so it's not necessary to read it. Is the amendment supported by the Administration?
It's supported by the Administration, and it was an accommodation for the merchants that we provide, as the amendment states, certain amounts of discount parking spaces during the week and certain amounts of spaces during the weekend to accommodate the merchants and people who shop at the Reading Terminal.
The Chair recognizes Councilman for a motion on the amendment.
Mr. President, I make a motion that the amendment to Bill No. 24 980549 --
Be adopted. 247 11/18/98 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - PUBLIC MEETING
All those in favor, let it be known by saying aye. Those opposed, say nay. The ayes have it. Bill No. 980549 is amended.
The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Verna for a motion on the amended bill.
Thank you, Mr. President. I move that Bill No. 980549 be reported out of committee with a favorable recommendation. (Duly seconded.)
All those in favor, let it be known by saying aye. Those opposed, say nay. The ayes have it. The amendment is adopted. At this time, I'd like to offer an amendment to Bill No. 980705. Has that amendment been distributed? This is an amendment to the bill that creates the Jump Street Tax Increment 248 11/18/98 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - PUBLIC MEETING Financing District.
Can we have the amendment distributed? (Amendment is distributed).
This amendment simply narrows the boundary of the TIF to exclude currently-occupied properties. It is my understanding that the Administration has worked with the community and the developers to fashion this amendment, and it is agreed to by everyone involved. The Chair moves the adoption of the amendment. Is there a second? (Duly seconded.)
All those in favor, let it be known by saying aye. Those opposed, say nay. The ayes have it. The amendment is adopted. The amendment is adopted. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Verna for a --
Mr. Chairman, I 249 11/18/98 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - PUBLIC MEETING move that Bill No. 980705 be reported out of committee with a favorable recommendation, as amended. (Duly seconded.)
All those in favor, let it be known by saying aye. Those opposed, say nay. The ayes have it. It is so ordered. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Verna for a motion on Bill No. 980719.
I move that Bill 13 No. 980719 be reported out of committee with a favorable recommendation. (Duly seconded.)
All those in favor, let it be known by saying aye. Those opposed, say nay. The ayes have it. It is so ordered. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Verna for a motion on Bill No. 908746.
I move that Bill 23 No. 980746 be reported out of committee with a favorable recommendation. (Duly seconded.) 250 11/18/98 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - PUBLIC MEETING
All those in favor, let it be known by saying aye. Those opposed, say nay. The ayes have it. It is so ordered. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Verna for a motion on Bill No. 980794.
Mr. Chairman, I move that Bill No. 980794 be reported out of committee with a favorable recommendation. (Duly seconded.)
All those in favor, let it be known by saying aye. Those opposed, say nay. The ayes have it. It is so ordered - - - 251 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980715
We now have before us only Bills No. -- The ones we're considering are Bill No. 980715. Is there anyone here to testify on Bill No. 980715? (No response.)
Whose bill is this? Is there anyone here to testify on Bill No. 9 908715, the naming of public buildings.?
Mr. President, that is my bill. I did not know if anyone from the Administration is here to testify on the bill, but there is one amendment.
Okay, so we will here that bill after we finish with the --
Is there any member of the general public who's here to testify on Bill No. 980715? (No response.)
Well, now I know we can let it wait 'cause there's nobody from the general public. So it's obviously only Councilmembers and Administration members. And that makes it very different. 252 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - PUBLIC MEETING That brings us to end of our public meeting on the bills that we acted on. - - -
We will now resume a public hearing on the bills that are currently before us. Does anyone have any questions from the Administration on Bill No. 980621 or 980614 or 980685? These are the three bills that are before us. Bill No. 980621 eliminates the handbilling prohibition in the bill. Bill No. 980641 adds certain portions of the 3rd Councilmatic District into the ordinance. This is Councilwoman Blackwell's bill, she has an amendment. And Bill No. 980685 is a bill that's sponsored by Councilman Mariano, which includes all of his district in the sidewalk bill. Is there anyone that has any questions from the Administration on these bills. Bill No. 23 980621, 980641, 980685? (No questions.)
If not, we 253 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - PUBLIC MEETING appreciate your coming. We need you to maybe stand by for a few minutes 'cause we don't know how many other members of the general public are here who may want to testify on any of these bills, and may need your expertise. Is there from the general public who wishes to testify on Bill No. 980621, 980641 or 980685, anyone? (Audience member raises her hand.)
While she's coming, let me know that Mr. Martin, who's here for the next hearing, the finance hearing, certainly attended and made a pledge to the Mary Jane Shelter, as did I, of course at a fund-raiser a few weeks ago because these shelters are so -- these shelters are in such bad shape that we had a fund-raiser to try to raise money ourselves to help them. But we certainly would like to thank him for his commitment in that arena. 254 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - PUBLIC MEETING
Please identify yourself for the record and proceed with your statement.
My name is Ruth Burchette. I'm founder of Heritage Community Economic Development Corporation, and like to make comment in reference to the reports that were given by the people who testified specifically to the placement of residential facilities within neighborhoods. I happen to share Councilwoman Blackwell's sentiment about our responsibility to care for our people. And I believe when you -- and certainly I've fought for a lot of funding for housing and have been (unintelligible), but I also, as a disabilities professional, am very clear that residential facilities throughout the City of Philadelphia, under mental health, mental retardation have principles for placements in communities, principles that, you know, that advocate for people not being warehoused into 255 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - PUBLIC MEETING certain sections of the City. It is clearly unfair that sections of the city, such as North Philadelphia, where we reside, are often the target of the placement of various type of homes. I advocate for the Department of Health, which has superb guidelines that it utilizes for the placement of residential facilities for the mentally regarded and mentally ill, that they consider using and developing some principles for the placements of residential facilities for substance abusers. We have in our community these recovery houses every other block. It is clearly unfair. And as this Council looks at attempting to devote additional resources to that, we want you to also look to developing policies which go along with that. You have the Philadelphia More Beautiful Committee, which has names of 6,000 block captains that are never consulted when anyone wants to come into a neighborhood and do anything, and it is simply unfair. I appreciate the fact that the Commissioner testified that they've had a series 256 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - PUBLIC MEETING of meetings with providers of services, but be very clear, the people who live in the communities need to be consulted as well, not simply the people who have funded and paid to do their job. And I have clearly been one of them. We have a situation where housing development in our community finally is coming through in North Philadelphia, in the area where the riots were years ago. I live in the same house that I was born in, I have the same address and phone number as when I born. We've been there 48 years. And I defy no one to tell us that we don't have any say so as far as what kind of facilities and services will be in our community. We expect this Council to protect us in that regard and also protect others who live, who would seek to live in our communities as well. So it's not a not-in-my-neighborhood kind of a thing that I am saying. It is clearly not that because elders in our community see people who are addicted. They are so compassionate. It is clearly unreal. It is unreal. We do care. It is not the issue of not 257 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - PUBLIC MEETING in my neighborhood. But unless we know that Council can't turn our neighborhoods around and we have to a part of turning our neighborhoods around. And in order to do that, we have to be a part of the decision-making. And you disenfranchise us when we're not able to be in that posture.
Thank you very much. We appreciate it. You know I appreciate it.
Yeah. It's just not fair. And I've slept on the skirt of the State building myself and fought for housing. We brought a million dollars in this town when it was on the verge of bankruptcy. So I've been on both things. I've run a CRR where people with mental illness live. You know, I've run a shelter and those kinds of things. So we do care, but let me tell you --
I'm sorry. We have 258 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - PUBLIC MEETING so much to do here today, there are people waiting.
That's fine. But all the people with drugs, their problems don't come from North Philly.
We understand. You know I know, 'cause I'm from North Philly. Councilman Kenney?
Just quickly. I'm sorry I didn't get your name when you first came in.
Ruth, I just want to thank you for coming in and expressing what you've expressed. From time to time, I will ask a question or I will make a statement that I try to be as clear and sensitive as I can. And when you come in to this table and expressed yourself the way you've done, it makes me understand that I may be correct in trying to protect what neighborhood working people need, and that's information and the ability to cooperate with our problems, to 259 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - PUBLIC MEETING make things better for people. I just want to thank you for expressing that, and I think you've expressed it better that I did in my questions.
Thank you thank you very much. Is there anyone? Else anyone else to testify on any of these bills? (Paul Stienke comes forward.)
Good afternoon. My name is Paul Stienke, I'm the Executive Director of the University City District. I was still here so I thought I might as well read my testimony into the record.
The University District is a special services district providing services in the University City section of West 260 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - PUBLIC MEETING Philadelphia. We're funded by voluntary contributions and have a 17-member board of director that represents a cross-section of the community. We thank Councilwoman Blackwell and this Council for the opportunity to testify. Councilwoman Blackwell, in particular, who's shown admirable courage in seeking community input on this matter, and we thank her for that. The sidewalk control ordinance that's now constituted excludes the 3rd Council District, including University City. The University City district believes that if University City remains secluded in this ordinance, then University City will sooner or later become known as a lawless safe haven for abusively aggressive panhandlers and the shelter-resistant homeless. Such individuals will be forced to leave Center City when the impact of this law begins to be felt, and logical to expect that many will likely migrate to University City, located just across the river, in their search for a place where the sidewalk ordinance does not apply. In addition to doing nothing to address 261 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - PUBLIC MEETING the unfortunate plight of these individuals, such eventuality would threaten to degrade the quality of life of this community, which as been steadily improving in recent years. The UCD agrees that real solutions and not simply legislation must be found to solve the problems of poverty, homelessness and substance abuse, and we pledge our support and cooperation with efforts to develop these solutions. Our position is consistent with the position adopted by the University City Community Council, five members of which sit on the UCD board of directors. We do not want to see University City and West Philadelphia become a magnet for the rest of the City's problems, therefore, we urge passage of Bill No. 980641. Thank you very much.
Thank you very much. Is this anyone else to testify? (No response.)
Seeing no one, this brings us to the end of our public hearing. We will now go into public meeting - - - 262 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - PUBLIC MEETING
The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Verna for a motion on Bill No. 4 980685.
Mr. Chairman, I move that Bill No. 908685 be reported out of this committee with a favorable recommendation. (Duly seconded.)
All those in favor, let it be known by saying aye. Those opposed, say nay. The ayes have it. It is so ordered. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Verna for a motion on Bill No. 980621.
Mr. Chairman, I move that Bill No. 980621 be reported out of committee with a favorable recommendation. (Duly seconded.)
All those in favor, let it be known by saying aye. Those opposed, say nay. The ayes have it. It is so ordered. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Blackwell to move the adoption of the amendment that she offered on Bill No. 980641. 263 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - PUBLIC MEETING
All those in favor, let it be known by saying aye. Those opposed, say nay. The ayes have it. Then Bill No. 980641 is amended. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Verna for a motion on the amended bill.
I move that Bill 13 No. 980641 be reported out of the committee with a favorable recommendation, as amended. (Duly seconded.)
All those in favor, let it be known by saying aye. Those opposed, say nay. The ayes have it. It is so ordered. The Chair is in error. We have one other bill in front of us, so we will reconvene our public hearing. - - - 264 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL NO. 980715
This is a public hearing on Bill 980715. The Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter on the bill.
Thank you, Mr. President. Mr. President, I have one piece of business that needs to be taken care of, if I could have the sergeant-at-arms at distribute a memo that was given to me last night from the Law Department. There is one technical amendment that needs to be made to this bill.
Be glad to, Mr. President. The amendment is in number one. At the end of that sentence should be added: "This provision shall not apply to any building or facility or part thereof under the jurisdiction of the Fairmount Park Commission." There is fairly long-standing opinion, Mr. President, that the Fairmount Commission has complete jurisdiction of their roads and buildings 265 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL NO. 980715 within the park system. There was no intent to infringe on that right by the Park Commission, and the Law Department has been very helpful in pointing out the need for clarity and the ability to cure this particular problem in Bill No. 7 980715. So in the public meeting, I'd like to move the adoption of that particular amendment, Mr. President.
Are there any questions for Councilman Nutter on this bill? (No questions.)
The bill is simple. Not me, right, Mr. President? (Laughter.)
A very simple bill. Is there any question, any comments? Is there any member of the general 266 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL NO. 980715 public or anyone in the room who wishes to testify on this bill? (No response.)
Then we will call an end to the public hearing. - - - 267 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - PUBLIC MEETING
We will now go into a public meeting on Bill No. 980715. The Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter for a motion on the proposed amendment.
Mr. President, I move the adoption of the amendment as read into the record in the public hearing. (Duly seconded.)
All those in favor, let it be known by saying aye. Those opposed, say nay. The ayes have it. The bill is amended. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Verna on the amended bill.
I move that Bill 17 No. 980715 be reported out of committee with a favorable recommendation as amended. (Duly seconded.)
All those in favor, let it be known by saying aye. Those opposed, say nay. The ayes have it. It is so ordered. This appears to bring us to the end of our public hearing and our public meeting on all 268 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - PUBLIC MEETING of the bills that are in front of us. Am I correct in that?
Thank you. (Adjourned at 2:15 p.m.) - - - 269 C E R T I F I C A T E I HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing proceedings of the Council of the City of Philadelphia of Wednesday, November 18, 1998. Were reported and accurately by me, and that this is a correct transcript of same. RE: COUNCIL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE BILL NO.'S - 980549, 980705, 980719, 980746 980794, 980621, 980641, 980685 980715 __________________________________, JOSEPHINE CARDILLO, Registered Professional Reporter